 everybody today we're debating whether or not trans women ought to be able to compete in in women's sports and we're starting right now. Ladies and gentlemen thrilled to have you here, thrilled to have you here for this epic debate. This is going to be a lot of fun folks as we get into this controversial issue and want to let you know at modern-day debate we try to host debates on politics science and religion the most controversial topics oftentimes while doing it and hopefully the most nonpartisan and fairway possible so no matter what walk of life you're from we hope you feel welcome here and we're very excited. If you enjoy debates consider hitting that subscribe button as we have a lot more debates coming up for example you'll see at the bottom right of your screen tonight Tom jump and ask yourself will be sparring off so that should be a lot of fun. Also want to let you know we have just launched our podcast so in addition to the YouTube channel the channel will remain but we are also now on some of your favorite apps for podcasts so check it out rate us we are very excited about that move and also want to let you know our speakers are linked in the description so that way if you are listening and you're like hmm I like that I want to hear more you can hear more that's why I put those links in the description just for you. We have a fairly flexible format before I get to that though I want to let you know about the men behind those links and so just to see exactly what they've been up to we're excited to have both of these guys here so we'll start with Sargon going left or right so Sargon excited to hear what you've been up to at your channel any passion projects that you've just started anything like that if you'd be willing to share. Nothing that I can share at the moment just producing regular content about the current decline of the West. You bet absolutely and Brenton excited to have you as well and if you want to share about what you've been up to any new passion projects topics that you've been delving into love to hear. Yeah so my name is Brenton Lengel I am a writer and comic author and playwright was active had seven plays produced in New York City was very active in the Occupy Wall Street movement and most recently my comic book Snow White Zombie Apocalypse the kickstart the successful Kickstarter for it has funded the creation of the second issue and we are done with the second issue now it's just being edited and then it will be printed and sent out and we're going to move on to the third which I'm really excited about so thank you to everybody who supported it it's a great story and I'm having a blast telling it yeah my channel is the main thing that I've been working on now between the comics and a novel that I'm doing in collaboration with a rock band and I suppose the the other thing is that I've also started a series on my channel where I read poems either my own or some poems that mean stuff to me I've got one called the Mad Farmer Liberation Front which is by one of my favorite poets Wendell Berry so I'm experimenting with that series and seeing if people like it and if they do I'm gonna do more so you know that's what I'm up to you bet well thank you it's a joy to have both of you here for the format folks it's going to be a 10 to 12 at most opening statement maybe even less than that from each speaker we'll be starting with the affirmative so Brenton will be going first and we'll have Sargon and then we'll go into open conversation that will be about an hour and then we'll go into Q&A so if you have any questions feel free fire them into the old live chat and from there I will try to get every question in the list if you tag me with at modern day debate it's easier for me to see every question and then super chat is of course an option in which case you can not only ask a question but if you want to make a comment toward the speakers they would of course get a chance to respond to that comment and it'll push your question or comment to the top of the list for the Q&A so with that we are very excited to get the ball rolling here Brenton the floor is all yours for your opening the topic tonight should trans women compete in women's sports is a topic that is surprisingly close to me for though I am not trans myself I am someone for whom most of his life the world has tried to place into one box or another and always these are boxes that I simply do not fit as such I have an innate compassionate reaction when I see others try to force complicated human beings to lie down on the proverbial bed of procrastinces running in artistic circles I tend to rub shoulders with trans folk more frequently than your average American or Brit and whenever I do I am frequently struck by the quiet courage resilience and dignity displayed by these individuals but more so I am also a lifelong athlete growing up from ages 7 to 18 I was a competitive swimmer participating in summer winter and high school leagues in which I frequently set records one more blue ribbons and trophies and plaques that I could count and competed in zones I was captain of my high school swim team and after aging out I became a coach for four years founding and managing a team of nearly 200 athletes several of which went on to have similar careers and even one college scholarships. I'm also an Appalachian Trail 2000 Myler which means I have traversed 2,200 miles of American wilderness from Maine to Georgia. I did this entirely on foot carrying everything that I owned on my back and I am a showdown a first degree black belt in Kyo-Ka-Shin karate a uniquely brutal style of full contact martial arts which forms the basis of many famous kickboxers and MMA fighters including Guy Metzger, Bass Rudin, George St. Pierre and also I think this is particularly cool Ivan Drago himself, Dolph Lundgren. He's a sundown by the way. I have scored a knockout in international competition and competed in a 15 man and completed a 15 man kumite which is 15 concurrent full contact fights undertaken without rest or water. So it is safe to say that sports, athletics and competitions are things that I both know and care quite a bit about. And that is why I am so excited and enthusiastic to have this dialogue. Trans women have likely been competing with cis women for as long as women's sports have existed. They've been competing openly since the mid 1970s and officially distinguished themselves at the highest levels of collegiate professional and Olympic competition since 2004. Yet even now 16 years later with a multitude of scientific studies reaffirming the international Olympic competing committee's decision to permit them to compete, there are a number of shall we say, busy body culture warriors who seem to have an issue with them being allowed to compete in a way that honors them, their competitors and the sport. Now, under no circumstances do I mean to paint with a broad brush. Public opinion is always far behind the scientific consensus on any given issue. And we as a society have been raised treat transgendered individuals with varying levels of suspicion, disgust and even outright hot hatred and fear. Trans women, in particular, in particular have been vilified as both comical and untrustworthy by our movies and media for as long as movies have existed. And I remember in particular growing up in the 80s and 90s and seeing films like Ace Ventura and Silence of the Lands, neither of which have particularly well to say the least. So if we are one of, so if you're one of those people who simply feels a certain level of instinctual discomfort with the idea that of men competing against women know that there is a reason you are having that reaction. You have been primed to feel that way through no fault of your own. It doesn't mean you're Cracker Von Patriarch. It just means you have something to learn. And the fact is, all of us do, to paraphrase Maratis, call no man fully educated until he is dead. Because you, I, we will continue to be to learn and change and grow every second until the end of our lives. And that's how it should be. Concern about creating an unfair competitive advantage is one of the most often cited reasons for resistance to the participation of transgender athletes and is most often cited in discussions about competing on women's teams. Some people are concerned that allowing transgender women to compete on these teams will take away opportunities from women or that transgender women will have a competitive advantage. These concerns are usually based in three assumptions. One, that transgender women are not real women and therefore not deserving of an equal competitive opportunity. Two, that being born with a male body automatically gives a transgendered woman an unfair advantage when competing against non-transgendered women. And three, that men might be tempted to pretend to be transgender in order to compete with women and win an easy victory. While understandable, none of these assumptions are well-founded. In the matter of the first, the scientific consensus is overwhelmingly clear on this issue. By every objective measure and regardless of, and regardless of determinations of their sexual expression, trans women are women. This is because sex and gender are distinct concepts. To quote Nature Journal, the most prestigious scientific publication in the Western world, quote, sex is a classification based on internal and external bodily characteristics and gender is a social construct related to biological differences but also rooted in culture, societal norms and individual behavior. Whatever the cause, organizations such as the American Academy of Pediatrics advised physicians to treat people according to their preferred gender regardless of appearance or genetics. The research in medical community now sees sex as more complex than male and female and gender as a spectrum that includes transgender people and those who identify as neither male nor female. So to be clear, sex and gender are different things and woman is a term relating to gender and not sex. Thus, scientifically, objectively, trans women are real women and should be treated as thus and are deserving of an equal competitive opportunity. Second, being born with a male body does not automatically give a transgendered woman an unfair advantage when competing, particularly not one who has undergone hormone replacement therapy for the requisite two years. To quote a systemic review of the data published in the New Zealand Journal of Sports Medicine, in conclusion, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgendered individuals have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition and therefore competitive sports policies that place restrictions on transgendered people need to be considered and potentially revised. Now, that may sound shocking to many of you who might not know much about sports and endocrinology, but the fact is this is not at all surprising if you're familiar with what hormone replacement therapy does to a person and have a solid understanding of sports and the philosophy of competition. HRT, which blocks testosterone and increases estrogen in trans women leads to a marked decrease in muscle mass and increase in weight and saps your body's ability to carry oxygen from the heart and lungs to your muscles, literally limiting your ability to engage in cardiovascular activity is referred to as your VO2 levels. So when transitioning, a trans woman loses much of her muscular advantage, puts on weight and loses the ability to fuel her muscles with oxygen to the degree her previous body could. As an example to prepare for this debate, I interviewed a competitive bolder, a rock climber who prior to her transition ran marathons. Now, I've run a marathon. It is one of the single most difficult and grueling experiences you can ever put your body through. Prior to her transition, her VO2 max was in the top 5% and keep in mind, while elite female runners and similar athletes have a higher VO2 level than most men, men tend to on average have a 20% higher level of VO2 than women. After her transition, her VO2 levels plummeted, putting her on par with the average female athlete. She went from running a 5k in 25 minutes to nearly doubling her time to 45 minutes. I might as well have been power walking, she told me. Once you're blocking testosterone and taking estrogen, you have to work twice as hard to be half as good. She got injured more easily, took longer to heal, and has been forced to rely almost entirely upon technique. Worst of all, her power ratio plummeted. As her weight increased and muscle volume decreased, she lost a great deal of explosive power and now struggles to manage more than 10 consecutive push-ups before she could easily do 30 without difficulty. So to say it again, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgendered individuals have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition. And if they did, surely we would see a near total domination of women's sports in the Olympics and similar events by trans women over the last 16 years. This has not happened, and so Assumption Number Two is disproven. Finally, we have Assumption Number Three, the idea that men will take advantage of these rules and pretend to be women to score an easy win. This is idiotic. One of the high schools I attended was in a small town. Now, I'm not that old, but I remember very well one of the other boys at my lunch table would frequently and loudly remark that if he were president, he'd round up all the gay people in the country, put them on an island, and blow them all to hell with a tactical nuclear strike. How do you think he would have reacted if I came in one day wearing a dress and telling everyone I was a woman? How many cis men would risk the kind of abuse that trans women go through just to win a few medals or set a record? The data bears this out. To quote the NCAA's transgender handbook, in the entire 40-year history of sex verification procedures in international sports competitions, no instances of such fraud have ever been revealed. Instead, rather than identifying men who are trying to fraudulently compete as women, sex verification tests have been misused to humiliate and then fairly exclude women with intersex conditions. The apparent failure of sex tests to serve their stated purpose of deterring fraud and the terrible damage they have caused to individual women athletes should be taken into account when developing policies for the inclusion of transgender athletes. This argument is so incredibly stupid that I genuinely have trouble believing anyone advances it in good faith. Even if there were such a man who would do this, I can pretty much guarantee you that he would not win, specifically because the sort of man who would use those tactics does not have the part of a champion. It almost reminds me of the South Park episode where Eric Cartman pretends to be disabled so he can compete in the Special Olympics, thinking that simply because he's able-bodied, he will beat all of these trained athletes. And of course, Eric loses every event and looks like an idiot. So there you have it. The three objections addressed and three objections disproven beyond the shadow of a doubt. But just in case you're still not convinced that the playing field is level, I'm going to take this one step further. Because from a philosophy of sports perspective, none of this actually matters. We are missing the forest for the trees. The fact is, is that a truly level playing field is impossible. And if sports were just about bringing your own inborn advantages to bear in a perfectly controlled environment, literally no one would care about sports. The reason sports are so compelling is they bring together so many aspects of human existence and heighten them to a degree where we as the audience watch and wonder, how? How did they do that? How can the human body even perform such a task? It defies imagination. Sports are about the perfect storm of ability, will, and circumstance, combining to leave us and the competitors spellbound to seemingly transcend the limits of humanity. The rules are there to facilitate this process, to deliver that experience, to make the impossible possible. The Olympic motto is, Sidious, Altius, Fortius, roughly faster, higher, stronger, as in push the envelope, go beyond. No one cares that Michael Phelps' body literally does not produce as much lactic acid as everyone else. That his muscles simply do not get tired like a mere mortal. They don't complain that his relatively short legs give him an extra kick or his comparatively long double-jointed arms reach further and pull more water than any of us could. No one wants to put him in a league of his own because of his larger hands or the fact that his torso is more hydrodynamic than any other person. He's not a freak because of his inescapable inborn advantages to put him ahead in shoulders above any and all competition. No, we watch Michael Phelps do what he was put on this earth to do and we are captivated. We honor him and he honors us and his competitors and the sport. He does a minute left. And his singular uniqueness and that is exactly the attitude we need to take towards transport and especially trans women in sports. Thank you. Thank you very much, Brenton. And we will kick it over to Sargon now for his opening statement. Flores, all yours, Sargon. All right, thank you. Well, I don't think that trans women should be able to compete in biologically female sports, which what we can scarise women's sports. There are some just basic facts for this that are not very controversial as I was researching for this. The differences between men and women physically are staggering. Men have got highly muscle mass. They've got high bone density. They've got narrower hips. They've got 56% greater lung volume, larger hearts, higher red lifestyle counts. They've got skeletal muscle mass distribution that gives men just the structure and the distribution of the way the way it's all work done gives them a 40% upper body and 33% lower body strength advantage. I mean, these are really staggering differences. And I mean, it goes really deep into the actual sort of ingrain, the very nature of what we are. Like, you know, to the very, the ligaments, men's ligaments can store 22% more energy than women's. And I've got like a 14% stronger or less stress failures and things like this. And it really is like men perceive motion better than women up to 75% faster in their perception of motion. And of course, they're taller and they're bigger and they've got bigger skeletons and all of these things add up to insurmountable advantages. I mean, the physical differences between men and women are just, they're so staggering that the women's world record for the 100 meters is 10.49 seconds and the men's qualifying for it to be an Olympic competitor is 10.16. There is not one woman on earth who can get into the men's Olympic competition. It's that big a difference. And you see this hilariously in women's football, actually. The difference is most pronounced when they're told to fight, to fight, to play teenage boys. I mean, in 2016, the Australian national women's soccer team lost 7-0 to the under 15 boys team. In 2017, USA World Cup champions were beaten 5-2 by Dallas Academy's under 15s team. And these were the ones complaining about equal pay, by the way. We should be given equal pay to the male team. It's like, okay, but you're not as good. And in 2018, man used women team got thrashed 9-0 by like a Southford youth team. And then you get into the consequences of allowing trans women to compete in women's sports. And contrary to what has been stated, there are many examples of male, genetically male people who have entered into women's sports and totally dominated them. The first one I think that's most interesting is Rene Richards, who transitioned in 1975, a tennis player, but didn't turn pro until 41, which is really interesting because the average age of retirement in tennis is 27. And she said in an interview that she believed that if she'd started in her 20s, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. It's really interesting, isn't it? And Rachel McKinnon is another interesting case. She transitioned at 37 in 2012. And then in 2018, she broke the world record for women's 200-metre cycling sprint. And then the next day won the women's cycling championship. And the third, you know, one of the competitors was just like, well, she obviously has advantages. And note the age though, right? I'm 40 years old now and I'm telling you, I know I'm slowing down. And so for these ladies to be smashing world records kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it? But it gets more ridiculous, in fact, when you get like they're just... And not necessarily Olympic sports, but just women's sports in general. There's Gabrielle Ludwig, who's a six-foot-eight Desert Storm veteran who, because she transitioned at 50 in 2012, got to play on women's college basketball teams and was described by the coach as the most dangerous player in the state. And I don't know whether you've ever played blood bowl, but it kind of looked like the starting lineup of that with a bunch of five-foot-six women and then there's six-foot-eight, 200-plus-pound Desert Storm veteran standing there. It looked ridiculous. There's no... And that is at least... Basketball is not a particularly contact sport. I mean, there is contact, obviously. But you get Hannah Mounsey, who's a handball player and there's a lot of contact in this. And she's six-two, well over 200 pounds, 30 years old, and staggeringly big. Just I wouldn't find that person. And I'm not a weak guy, but man, she looks terrifying and it's sad to watch. It's embarrassing for Hannah Mounsey as well. I mean, if you gave a damn about fair competition, you would look at the size differences between these people and say that this just isn't fair. No matter what it is, it's not fair. And the people who are taking advantage of their biological size and this technicality in the rules should feel ashamed of themselves. Because what they are doing, and I've got lots of other examples, but I don't want to waste everyone's time, giving you examples of broke world records in the women's 100-meter and 200-meter dash world powerlifting records. You know, all of these... Like, there are loads of examples of these records that are being held by women. And that's why there are loads of women who are actually objecting. You've got... In 2019, there was a particular spate of them. One of them, Martina Navarra-Tolova, I can't pronounce the name, 18-time tennis grand slam winner, said it was insane cheating to allow male female trans to compete against biological females because of the inherent physical advantage of the men they have, which they do. She was branded transphobic and under a lot of pressure was forced to apologize. Then you had Sharon Davies, a Commonwealth Games gold medalist that said every single woman athlete I've spoken to and I've spoken to many, all my friends in international sports understand and feel the same way as me. And she was, of course, branded transphobic. Then you had Paula Radcliffe, saying that the financial incentive would be there and a federal lawsuit was filed in 2020 by a group of female students and their parents against two trans... Not against the two transgender people who were competing in a Connecticut... School sport, I think they're 17 years old. But what happened, in fact, these, in fact, this was Terry Miller, who in 2018 broke world records in 100 and 200 meter dash in the CIAC state open track and field competition. And the second place was another male-female transgender called Andrea Yearwood. And the lawsuit is about blocking them from being able to compete in the female races because, and as they say, mentally and physically, we know the outcome of the race before it even starts. That biological unfairness doesn't go away because of what someone believes about gender identity. Now, I think that these facts are, well, the evidence. These are aspects of reality that we can see, that we can understand. And so saying that there's no direct or consistent research to show that it does, that's fine. We can look at merely the consequences. We can see the results. The results are that men, despite, and they do, lose a percentage of muscle mass and other advantages. But there are some advantages that are inherent. Things like the skeleton, the heart size, the lung size, things like this. And decades of being male, testosterone leaves muscle memory and things like this. Again, I'm no expert on these things. But this is what apparently the experts are saying. And this can't just be undone. And we don't even know that a lot of these people, even if they have been transitioning from one to two years, some of them haven't. I mean, one of them had been doing it for less than 11 months when she was winning women's powerlifting. So to say, and a lot of them are doing it quite late in life after having no particular achievement in the male category. So I think that it's not clear cuts to just say that this is one or the other and that this doesn't happen and that the opposition is so stupid as to not really care about women actually being in women's sports. Because really this does all come down to definitions. And fundamentally, I just don't agree that trans women are women because I think the definition of woman is adult human female. And I don't think that a person who was born male is a female. I think I'll end my statement there. You bet. Thanks very much, Sargon. And with that, we'll kick it into the open discussion. So floor is all yours, gentlemen. All right. So thank you for that, Sargon. So I was a little surprised by the opening arguments, largely because you've already been confronted by rationality rules on the fallacy of nut picking. And that was what you were doing. You were picking out a couple of wins from trans women and saying that because trans women won, therefore, trans women will always win. And it's not fair, which is simply not the case. Well, can I just stop you on that before you move on from that point? Because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that trans women will always win because they are physically more advantaged by having been male. And that is the case. OK. But the science says the complete opposite of what you're talking about. Yeah, it absolutely does. Well, then, for instance, you can disagree on the facts. One second. But I don't agree. Otherwise, so sorry to interrupt, guys. Brenton, it's a little bit different from before when we started. I think that your volume, it's a little bit high. If you're able to turn down my volume. Even sometimes, spacing away from the mic just a little bit might help alleviate the difference. How's this? That's perfect. Thanks so much. Yeah, so first off, the science is clear on this. Now, you talk, for instance, about having a larger heart or larger lungs. So again, as I mentioned in my opening statement, their VO2 levels drop. It doesn't matter how large their heart or their lungs is. If the blood cannot carry the oxygen to the muscles, it completely negates that advantage. It obviously doesn't. Well, again, this is proven. It does. No, it's not. There's no direct or consistent research that proves that that's not the case. And you are simply assuming that that is the case. No, I said there's no direct or consistent research that proves they have an advantage. They don't have an advantage. So you can't prove a negative. No, yes, you were assuming the negative because we have. Because that's how burden of proof works. Can I finish my sentence? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what I am saying to you is that you were assuming, because we haven't proven that there is an advantage, that there is no advantage. But that doesn't follow. It just means we haven't proven it. I still think that there is an advantage. And I think the evidence of this is the fact that women are being demolished by transgender women in sports. But they're not being demolished by transgender women in sports. What's happening is that a few trans women are winning, and that becomes big news. Nobody reports when a trans woman loses or gets second or third place because there's not a lot of money in that. No, they don't. Not to the aspect that culture warriors do. I don't care what culture warriors say. There are reports of trans women not winning. I mean, let me. Yeah, but it doesn't make the nightly news. No one's filing lawsuits when a trans woman comes in second or third. So that's the problem, isn't it? So it creates a false idea in your mind that trans women are blowing cis women out of the water. And it's just not happening. We know they are because they're winning medals. They are such a few records. And so are cis women. But they're setting records that can't be set by cis women. They're setting records that haven't been set by cis women yet because that's how records work. Because they can't be set. That's a ridiculous assumption. So first off, we got to talk about how the burden of proof works. I know how the burden of proof works. OK, so you know, for instance, that if you say there is an invisible teapot orbiting Saturn, I don't have to prove that there's no invisible teapot orbiting Saturn. You have to prove that there is an invisible teapot orbiting Saturn. So obviously, the burden of proof is on you to prove that trans women have an innate advantage. And yes, I have. They do have innate advantage. How have you proven that? By the fact that they're larger, stronger, they run faster, they've got faster reflexes. So larger doesn't always matter, like, depending upon the sport. It depends on what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, so take, for instance, volleyball. On average, volleyball players have gotten taller and taller in each team as history and as we've recorded, such a thing is going on. On top of that, trans women tend to be taller than cis women volleyball players. Now, here's the other thing. Because men are bigger than women. And guess what? Out of all of the Olympic wins in women's volleyball, the tallest team has only won once since we started tracking it. The tallest team almost never wins. So again, this is a very simplistic way of looking at things. Height can be an advantage in sports. Well, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Don't just gallop off. Right, that's invaluable. And maybe that is the case, invaluable. But that doesn't negate the other advantages that men have. Focusing on the point doesn't change anything. Right, but again, do you want to do a special league for Michael Phelps? I do, just to give Sargon plenty to respond to those points. Yeah, I'm not interested in reforming athletics, OK? I'm just saying, in my opinion, I don't think that people who are born male should be able to compete with women because it is obviously and manifests the unfair. OK, but you don't have any data to back that up. Yes, I do. The fact that trans women are winning all of these awards. They're smashing all of these records. Women couldn't do this. They get a couple of awards and a couple of records. No, loads. And people get into a kerfuffle about it because they get uncomfortable with it. They're now lawsuits about it. Yeah, of course, because they're uncomfortable and there's a couple of people who are bad losers. Well, I'm sorry. I don't agree. I think that, ironically, right, it's actually from an understanding that women are not the same as men and a concern for women that I'm actually approaching this. Because, I mean, I'm not. Because you're very concerned with women, what with Gamergate and your hatred of feminists. Yes, I am. Yeah, very concerned. I'm worried about what the intersection of left will end up doing to women. And that is actually one of the things I think. It's amazing that a lot of defenders of women are now saying, no, it's OK if biological men take over your sports. I mean, I can really see. There is no such thing as a biological man. Now, what you mean to say is a biological man. Yeah, what you mean to say is a biological man. Yes, yes, yes, I understand your pedantry. The violence between male people are not female, definitionally. I mean, yeah, but also the line between male and female is arbitrary to begin with. It's created by scientists so that we can make determinations about like an aid in breeding and identification and all that kind of thing. The fact is that humans are a bimodal species. And biologically, we exist along a spectrum with male and female as ideals on either end. No one is 100% male or 100% female. They don't want to get too caught up in the debate on whether or not. Fair enough. That's off topic. Well, I'm afraid it's going to have to come down to that because that's the problem that we're having here, right? The phrase is male and female. The gender roles of man and woman were not created by scientists. They're just observed by scientists because these are the innate biological properties of human beings. Mankind has known about these since the dawn of time. They are the prerequisites to us forming families and having children and reproducing for the next generations. OK, so that's actually not correct. And in fact, it took a while for humans to even understand that sex makes babies. It's the same thing. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Absolutely. And in fact, when we started to have these ideas, if you look at the anthropological record, it happened when we domesticated animals. And what happened would be that they would notice that certain animals would breed with other animals within their livestock, and the babies would look similar. So what they did is they said, how do you know that? They've read an anthropological paper from the Smithsonian Institute. You can't possibly know that because they left no writings. Right, but they don't have to leave writings for there to be a fossil record. Yeah, but the fossil record doesn't tell you what they knew about the new production. And hang on for a second. They definitely did leave writings now that I think about it because that would have happened after the domestication. So we started taking. Domestication of animals took place like 50,000 years ago. Yeah, and we started making records around five to 6,000 years ago. Yeah, so it was 45,000 years of time that we can't account for. Yeah, but also they're not passing down their knowledge through anything other than oral tradition. And we know, of course, that knowledge is passed on through oral tradition because we have the Iliad and the Odyssey, which were created before the advent of writing. Anyway, the point is that you're taking a lot of things. This is important because you're totally flat wrong on this. Like ancient Neolithic humans, you absolutely are. They absolutely knew that having sex produced babies. And how do you know that? Because every human knows that. OK, so. It's a part of being human. It's a part of human experience. But they didn't have writing to write it down and tell her that sex makes babies, honestly, right? But I'm not the one suggesting that Neolithic humans had no idea how to do production. And again, what you're doing is I'm assuming a negative. The burden of proof is again on you. I think it's just a fair assumption to say that if modern humans know that reproduction happens because we go through it, and this has been the case for human beings back into time immemorial, there's no reason to think that they didn't know that as well. No, the fact is, is that. You might want to transition just because. All right. It's seriously going on different topics as long as you can direct it, kind of tie it back to the audience. I just don't think you should make unsubstantiated claims like ancient. It is substantiated. Like I said, this is the reproduction produced babies. This is known to anthropologists. Again, we get these ideas about how things work as we move forward. I mean, for the longest time, people believed in, was it like a spontaneous generation where they would have like a big silo of grain. And then suddenly they put the grain in there. And then in the over the winter, they come in, they'd open it up in the spring, there'd be a bunch of mice. People thought, oh no, the grain turned into mice. Yeah, so again, you're thinking. It's like it's being generated in the water, too. Yeah, exactly. So again, you're making, yeah. So again, you're making an assumption based upon your knowledge as a modern human that this knowledge was possessed by ancient humans, which is simply not the case. There have never been any humans that didn't know that it was reproduction that produced babies. And how do you know that? Just to see. And this is something. Every human has gone through it. Every human has experienced it. This is something one sec, one sec, one sec. It's something that they have such direct experience of. We might want to, if we just explain to the audience like how this ties back to the central issue, I'm okay with continuing on this. So yeah, let me tell you this. So this all ties back because really, this all comes from a position of critical theory where they think that any form of definition as a form of oppression, it's a form of exclusion. And therefore, all of these categories need to be split apart. And that's just not going to work. Women have a particular definition. And as you said, it is rooted in biological differences. And so there is no point trying to take someone of the opposite gender, biology, sex, say, and try and allow them to also be in the same category. It's just they're incompatible categories. Okay, you do not want to bark up this tree because remember you're talking to a writer. That's exactly where I want to go. I literally like, there is nothing that I know better than words and language and communication. So to begin, first off, all definitions are arbitrary because language is symbolic. So there is no such thing as a fixed definition. You can change a definition for a word. It literally language only exists and words only exist because they have utility. So there is no such thing as a fixed definition. Second of all, there is no such thing as a fixed definition for woman or man or anything else. A good example of this actually is what recently happened to Glinner. I wrote black books. Yeah, Graham Lynum who felt bad I actually loved his early work with black books. I thought it was genius. But what he wound up doing was he said, somebody asked him, can you give a definition of a chair that only includes chairs and excludes all things that are not chairs? And he said, absolutely. It's a seat usually for one person consisting with four legs. And of course, and this is really great because it's a shot back to diogenes. Someone came in with a picture of a horse and said, look, a chair. The fact is is that all definitions and all words that we use, we essentially use to talk around something in reality. Nothing exactly perfectly depicts what is in objective reality. And so the concepts of male and female and also the concepts of man and woman again have been created because they have utility to humans. They have immense utility, but also they don't work 100% of the time because again, they are created by us. We are flawed and everything within this reality is flawed and everything contains within itself its own negation. Now, you talk about critical theory. No, let's not. No, no, no, no, we're not done on this subject. Okay. Right, so what you've proposed essentially is I think what we could term as Bertrand Russell's atomic theory of language. The problem with the atomic theory of language is that you need to now find logical and semantical justification from within an isolated sentence for what you've said. And as you've said, these are not things that are in some way objective, right? A word has the meaning into which we have to. I don't subscribe to this theory. And honestly, I think by the end of his life, Bertrand Russell didn't either. And honestly, I'm not going to be rude, but you ain't the guy to solve either. I think we should subscribe to Dumbart's holistic view of language where we just base our meaning based on the rest of the language that we understand. So we take all of the language as a giant sort of ball of interwebbed, interconnected words that have meanings that are reliant on other words' meanings. You are absolutely right that language, sentences, for example, a fact is a sentence that's constructed to represent linguistically, so we understand a part of reality that we can see. That's correct. Now, the reason that I don't accept that the definition of woman, for example, in this case is anything other than adult human female is because of the necessary conjunction it has with the mating process itself, right? This is a deep part of the human condition. It's what people, almost every song is about love. It's all about wooing one another. And the reason that we have man and woman is because of the utility that they bring us. This utility is essential if we want to carry on as a species. What it contained within the words man and woman. Sorry. Hang on, hang on. It's essential like you wouldn't know who you could mate with and who you might not want to mate with if it wasn't man and woman. Like you would run around and like if you didn't have the word man and you didn't have the word woman, you might like go fuck a guy. We will create something like man or woman to facilitate reproduction. Right, but that's, you know, again, it's not words that drive someone to reproduce or mate. Like sexual attraction is innate. You can't like get around that by playing with language. So I don't see what this has to do with anything. I don't see what it has to do with the words. Okay, well, let me explain to you. Right, the difference is that men and women have different interests because of their biological differences. They're very, very different. I mean, women have to deal with the fact that men are frankly, almost any man is able to pummel the crap out of almost any woman. I mean, not true. I mean, that's absolutely true. No, I can tell you. So my dojo, for instance. You can provide me an example of a woman who can beat up any man, that's fine. But on average, almost any woman when she goes on a date with a man is going to find herself the physical inferior of that man. Okay, so why do you suddenly understand this now when you didn't understand it before? I'm not finished explaining. So the reason that we have these gender roles is primarily for women's protection in that way. We make sure that men understand that women are actually something we have to make room for because I do agree with the feminists that the turfs, shall we say, that unchecked and rampant masculinity can indeed be very oppressive towards women. We can see this in the Middle East. Almost all of Islam is basically focused around making sure the man never has to take responsibility for his masculinity. And religion in general does that. I agree. But let's not go off on the topic. But we can see the results if we don't do this. And so it is important for women to, for us to have social rules that are commonly understood that you know every single person has. And this just facilitates courtship. It just makes it a lot easier. The woman knows what she is expected of her. The man knows what's expected of him. The man has an understood set of interests and the woman has an understood set of interests. So this is a fallacious deal to consequence. I'm not even finished. Okay. Right. For example, the man wants exclusive access to the woman for reproductive rights. And the woman wants to make sure that she's going to have resources once she has reproduced. So this, to say that man and woman don't have utility because we connect the definition of them to the biological reality of male and female is nonsense in my opinion. I said they do. I just said it doesn't always have utility in every situation. It doesn't have to. But this is the thing. We need to figure out a way to expand the definition and to make the proper accommodations when it doesn't work. You know, why? Because it promotes a more harmonious, successful society for all of us. I'm not saying a lot of harmony because of all this. Well, yeah, you're not seeing harmony. For less than 1% of the population we are tearing apart the genders. The military is less than 1% of the population. The military is like 0.7, 0.8% of the population. Look how much we do for the military. So the size doesn't matter. The military is something that we artificially create for a specific reason. Well, yeah, but we also artificially create sports for a specific reason. Yes, we do for the same reason as the military, really. But that's not the same thing. What do you mean with same reason as the military? What are you talking about? This is fascinating. Let's go into this. No, because that's going off topic. How OK? But it's OK. Do you think that we have a choice about being men and women? Like, do you think that the average? And remember, half of the population is lower than 100 IQ. So I realize that you're a very smart chap. But there are lots of people. 145, by the way. I've no doubt. There are lots and lots of people who actually do need these sort of, I guess we can call them narratives, right, to guide them in life. And I realize that a 145 IQ like yourself probably doesn't need these things. But a lot of people do. I think it's actually really privileged of you on your part to not consider their perspective. So they need the concept of men and women to be incredibly simplistic or they'll lose their minds? Yes. So OK, do you have an example of this happening? Yeah, there are loads of stupid people around. Who do you think? Do you think it's fucking rocket scientists who are murdering trans women? I mean, I think. What do you think the average IQ of those people murdering trans women are? You think it's high? It could be high. There's serial killers, for instance, have very high IQs. Do you think it's idiots who don't know how to deal with the fact that something for them is deep and there's something they don't understand. But it feels pre-programmed probably because in many ways it is. And then they're having this flouted. And I mean, you watch the videos of it. It's horrific. The language used, the people involved, they are not winning any prizes. So you can sit from your position, 1.5 IQ privilege, but these people need this stuff. Except this stuff is what's driving them to kill. I mean, again, dude, again, I mentioned at the beginning the two biggest examples of trans women in our culture when we were growing up. It was like Ace Ventura, where when he figures out he's had sex with a trans woman, he pukes, he rips her clothes off in front of everybody. He spends an entirely hilarious scene. And then you've also got like silence. But why do you think that was the case? That was the case because of internalized homophobia. It's because he had sex with a man, yeah. Well, again, no, he didn't. He had sex with a trans woman. It's not the same thing. Okay, he had sex with a male then. Yeah, but he didn't actually have problems with it when he was having the sex. It wasn't until after he figured it out that he suddenly lost his mind. So, you know, again. It's rough being deceived, isn't it? Well, it's rough being deceived, but being deceived is not the same thing to that level. Like, again, you look at, for instance, You're being deceived about the person you're having sex with and that's not as bad as what? I mean, being deceived about the person that you're having sex with, everyone's deceived to one extent or another. We can never know 100% about anybody else. Well, I'm not just saying makeup. I'm saying like there's stuff I don't even know about my wife because she's another person that I can't see inside her head. So, you know, how much needs to be revealed beforehand and this is really in the weeds. I think the sex of the person you're about to have sex with is probably useful. I mean, most people require it because really, I think ultimately, it's because ultimately when people form relationships, they're not just doing it for the sort of immediate hedonistic desire of having sex. That's pretty shallow thing to attribute to our fellow man. I think they're really thinking about, you know, potential long term interest, settling down, having a family. And if it turns out that the lovely young woman that you've been romancing actually turns out to have some balls, then that was a lot of time wasted, wasn't it? If it was time wasted, though, you would see the same thing happen if a woman admits she's infertile. And that's simply not the fact. God, yeah, if I married a woman and we said, right, we're gonna have kids and then she told me actually, before we got married, I knew I was infertile. I'd be pissed, man. I mean, you could be mad about that, but again, you would have had conversations about it. Yeah, but if she had a problem. They didn't have a conversation in Ace Ventura, she just freaked out. And the thing is, it's like the guy in my school who wanted to kill all the gay people. Like, he wanted to do that because he was taught that gay people are really bad and he probably had some feelings of his own that he had to deal with. I don't know. But the thing is, I would say probably a little bi, but the thing is, is that, again, sexuality exists on a spectrum. We're all a little gay. Some are less and some are more. I mean, if he's thinking about gay people an awful lot and how much he hates those gays, I mean, it's playing on his mind. He's on his mind. Yeah, yeah. But the point is, is that society has taught him to behave in that way. And these are the traditional gender roles you seem to be defending. Now, this is important as it does back it up, but I think we should really move on to sports because that is the topic here. But the thing is this does come down to what you think is a woman, right? That's the very root of this. But I mean, I don't think that gender roles, I don't think that gender roles necessitate homophobia. I don't think that the root cause of homophobia. I mean, it seems to me that's the Abrahamic religions generally, right? I mean, that's part of it. But I mean, you even look at the Abrahamic religions, you can tell that a lot of it is based on like this weird paranoid need to reproduce. Like there was the, what was it? The myth that a man could run out of seed and that's why masturbation is wrong. For instance. Do you know anything about the history of the Middle East? Somewhat, what do you want to bring up? There is definitely a need to breed if you want to exist. Oh yeah, yeah, cause it's a difficult environment and all that stuff. There's even, there's a great YouTube video. The environment's very, the environment flourishing. It's the brutality of the Middle East. For the past 3000 years, the Middle East has just been a carnage zone. It's been the worst place on earth. Consistency. Okay, this is way off topic. And also, you know, before that they were one of the most flourishing civilizations. Like we got the Epic of Gilgamesh from them. Yeah, but look at the Epic of Gilgamesh, it's brutal. Well, yeah, but everybody loves brutal stories. Look at the freaking Marvel movies. The point is it was a brutal area. So having children was important. You can see why the Abrahamic religions did it. I'm not saying we need to do it now or anything like that, but it's, you know, you could see it was a population pressure that existed at the time. Sure, but I just, I don't see people suddenly being like, oh, trans women exist. How can I possibly have children? Ah, it doesn't make sense. Now. Why didn't you say that? That's why it didn't make sense. Well, no, I'm exaggerating to make a point. But anyway. There's big points I didn't make. Well, no, the point that you made, fair enough, but the point that you made specifically was that we need these, this traditional understanding of gender to understand how to breed. And that doesn't make any sense. Not to understand how to breed. I mean, the physical act of breeding, obviously every animal knows how to do that. It's the, the problem comes afterwards really in the raising of another human being and making sure that they're a good human being. That is something that gender roles play a very strong part in. And I think that they're necessary to make sure that we become healthy, happy human beings. I mean, if they fit, sure. But if they don't fit, and oftentimes they don't fit, like, okay, so sex and gender. Sex is essentially what the doctor pulls out the baby, looks at the genitalia and says, okay, this is a boy. This is chromosomal range. Well, it's not, no, it's not. Cause they're XY women and XX men and, yeah. They're, yeah, there's a, it's not a perfect process, but life isn't by definition. It's actually far less perfect than you'd think. And in fact, in the article from nature, no, no, seriously, dude, in the article from Nature Journal that I, as many as one in 100 births, that's 1% of the population, is born with some sort of sexual or chromosomal anomaly. And for a lot of the 20th century doctors would just kind of look at it and go, I think this is a man. And then surgically alter the baby to whatever they thought was best. And a lot of the time they were wrong. So now you think about that, and you think about the surgically altered babies, and we don't know how many of them there were, but those that we did follow wound up experiencing a lot of difficulty because of the mismatch between their sex and their gender. So, you know, we know that essentially sex is, you just have these characteristics. It's not good, it's not bad, just these characteristics exist. We observe them and we're enough to say, ah, that's a man and that's a woman. And there's gender, and gender is the, therefore you should, and to dictate your role in society. This works very broadly, but it does not serve a very significant minority of humans and it gets us into problems. It's essentially a bug in the system that we need to solve. And one of the aspects that we should solve it in is athletics, because again, like... Okay, let me stop you there then. I agree that there is an imperfect mechanism that is created, but I mean, it does seem that approximately 99% of the population either identifies male or female. Yeah, but I mean, one, is the military less than 1% and it's really very significant? I don't care about the military, that's not relevant. Military is optional. But people, being male or female is an option, right? You are commanded by your gender to be one of these things, unless you are one of the very small number of people, less than 1% of people who have a biological defect. Right now, I'm sorry about that. I would call that a defect. You're speaking to judgementally about it. It would be a mutation. But the thing is we're all... That sounds worse. Yeah, but again, I'm using scientific language and you're right. So am I. Yeah, but the thing is, is that when I'm saying it, I'm saying it as this is just a thing that exists. It's not gonna be bad. I'll tell you what, let's say it's moral condemnation, okay? I'm okay to do that. Can I say that? No, that's ridiculous. Don't agree with that. No, it's not... There's no point condemning someone for something they didn't have a choice of, right? So I'm not gonna condemn someone for having been born with a genetic anomaly that means they are somehow insect, right? Yeah, I'm not trying to be pejorative, right? It's obviously silly to be so. But that doesn't mean that because there is a few of them 1% anomaly that we abolish the categories of male or female or detach them and make them somehow transcendental to the biology of a human being because we need those to be attached to the biology of the human being in our heads as an adult human woman, adult human male or else they actually don't really mean very much at all and they don't fulfill the function that we actually need fulfilled in life. I mean, I don't disagree with you on that but nobody is saying to abolish male and female. I mean, even... No, no. I found my body at home. Yeah. Now you've got for instance, like some... It was an ethics, an ethics paper that was done on like the end of PubMed or something where they were saying, look, we can't figure out any other way but to abolish the categories of male female and think of something that they said would quote be more fair. I mean, I'd have to see that, but yes. Forgive me, just because your volume's creeping up a little bit again where I have you bumping into the red. If there's any way to... Is this better? That's definitely better. Okay, good. If I can, I can turn down the volume a little bit more. I have a loud voice. I would maybe even a little bit more just to be safe. Thanks so much for that. How's that? Okay, so this is really important. So with regard to the article that I had, let me find it, I had that pulled up. So nature journal. So while I look this up though, it's very important to also understand like as far as the history of sports and even men competing against women, I think a lot of the time, what we've seen is the gender divide is heavily exaggerated. For instance, there was a very famous incident with Jackie Mitchell, I believe was her name and I might be wrong with that, but Jackie Mitchell, she was a 17 year old girl and she was brought on as kind of a, she was a really good pitcher and she was brought on to a team, sort of like a semi-professional team, the Washington senators. And she was recruited as sort of a draw for the crowds during the Great Depression. Well, she wound up pitching as a draw against both Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig in a row and this 17 year old girl struck them both out. Now Babe, maybe he gets struck out frequently, he's a big swinger, but Lou Gehrig, that's crazy. And a number of women were pushing to be allowed to play baseball and several professional teams recruited them and then people started complaining and then suddenly they went and barred them. So a lot of this doesn't really have to do with protecting women so much as keeping women in their place oftentimes and the protecting women is advanced in kind of a disingenuous way. I mean, we should agree that happens sometimes. Well, I'm not advancing in a dissonance, maybe I wouldn't know, this isn't my field of expertise, but like, I do genuinely find it concerning that if, I mean, if trends continue, then I mean, if it's like this now where trans women are smashing all of these records. And this is the very beginning of this event, right? This is, you know, the back in the 70s, but really since sort of 2010 and onwards, it seems that it's becoming far more socially acceptable and far more popularized. And so I think a lot more trans people are going for it. But I mean, I think it's entirely possible that the records, the level of the record will get above what it is actually physically possible for a biological female to actually achieve. And so... I mean, if you wanna claim that, you'd have to prove that in the sport itself. And the science in the sports leagues disagree. I can't prove something that I'm predicting will happen. That's why I'm prediction. But the initial trend is not good already, right? The trans athletes already smashing a bunch of records. And again, like, you know, women's sprinting, you know, big popular events that people watch, you know, it's totally conceivable that it'll come a day. There's nothing but males in the women's sprinting or in the powerlifting especially. And so it's one of those things where it's like, I mean, even a raging misogynist, hang on, even a raging misogynist like myself is like, well, okay, maybe the lady should have something that it requires you to be a biological female to be since there is a difference between male and female. I mean, I might agree that maybe that is possibly being informed by the fact that when you follow the turf argument, it flatters you and flatters men by saying that men and women are different and men are better essentially. Science does. Yeah, the science doesn't know. So, and by the way, this is what I was going to bring up. So this is from the nature editorial. The idea that science can make definitive conclusions about a person's sex or gender is fundamentally flawed. Justice sports organizations, such as the International Olympic Committee, which have struggled with this for decades. In the 1960s, concerned that men would compete in women's events, officials tried to classify athletes through genital examinations and an intrusive and humiliating process. DNA tests that check for the presence of a Y chromosome did not prove reliable. Either people with XY chromosomes can have female characteristics owing to conditions, including an inability to properly respond to testosterone. Nowadays, the IOC classifies athletes by measuring their testosterone levels, but this too is flawed. Certain medical conditions can raise a woman's testosterone level to the typical male range and tests leave them unable to compete among women. And I actually meant to bring that up earlier. There was a very famous runner by the name of, let me find her here. So I get her name exactly. Yeah, it was Jackie Mitchell who struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. Caster Semenya. Yeah, so this is a woman. She is a cis woman. She has been reported as being intersex, but she, a woman overall, and what she wound up having happen is, is that because she has a condition where she has elevated levels of testosterone, the Olympic Committee said she either needed to bring her natural levels of testosterone down to the standard level for female athletes or compete with the men. Yeah, there's just a bolster you're pointing at. There is Semenya, I think her name is an African lady. Yes, Semenya. That's what I just said, that's what I'm talking about, Caster Semenya. Oh, that's the same person, is it? Sorry, I thought you said a different name. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm familiar with that. And yeah, it's interesting how these things come about. But if anything, I think that that's more evidence that men shouldn't be competing with women. I mean, I would say it's more evidence that doing the delineation between men and women and basing it on gender is not a good idea. And we should be looking into other ways to do it. It's just easier to do it with men and women. I mean, also, you've got, for instance... I don't see why, I mean, it seems perfectly cogent. Anyone who is biologically female and identifies as a woman can compete in the women's and anyone who's biologically male and identifies as a man can compete in the men's. Well, for one thing, then where are the hellers or transgendered people supposed to compete? Well, I'd be happy with the transgender league. That's not, there's two big problems with that. And I see how you would think about that. One, there's not enough of them to make up a league. They're too small of a pop. It'd be like, you occasionally get an opponent. And then two, that further reinforces the idea that these people are not real women or not real men, which then leads to them being abused and treated like garbage by the rest of society because humans are garbage. So here's another issue. Hang on a second, before we go on from that. I just wanna stress that I don't think they're real women or real men. I think that real women are females and real men are males. Okay, but how can you say that? Because the definition of woman is adult human female. Okay, but one, that's not the definition of woman. And two, that's not how definitions work. You can't, going to the definition is begging the question. So you're saying this woman is a woman because the definition of woman is adult human female. You are assuming the connection in the premises. No, I'm not. I'm setting out the necessary and sufficient conditions for me to consider a woman, a woman. What do they have to have and what completes what I'm requesting? And being an adult, being a human and being a female, are those necessary and sufficient conditions? Okay, but again, that is a circular argument, Sargon. No, that's a definition. Yeah, but to argue from a definition is a circular argument. So for instance, let's do, hang on. No, no, no, no, because what you're stumbling into is a really deep question in philosophy that is so far unresolved, right? Yes, it does seem that the meaning that we have in language is circular. It does seem that way. It honestly seems that the- It's interdependent, it's not circular, but yeah, I get what you're saying. Yeah, it's called coherent argument, coherence theory. But the coherence theory is essentially taken on the aspect of foundational theories just because of the nature of your drawing from the belief anyway. But the point is there's no point saying that definitions are circular because all language is dependent on the meaning of the words. So yes, but we can't think in any other way. So what's the point? Sure, we can think in other ways. I mean, I'm thinking in other ways. You honestly can't think without language. I mean, I can't think in words. The meaning of the words that you have, but you can't think in words without language. I can think without language. No, you can't. Yeah, you can because animals don't have language and they think. No, they don't. They intuit. Okay, that doesn't make any sense. Because they're not rational animals. Like, get an animal to spell a word. Well, you can actually do that with goats and probably... Maybe there are examples where it looks like that or you've trained them to use whatever. The point is man's essential nature is this rational animal. And I think that this is what you were trying to come out with the nature of the chair earlier. It was, what's the essential property of a chair? And I'm not even saying I know. Yeah, there's no such thing as an essential property of a chair. Like, it's just an idea. What's unique to a chair? That's how you identify it. I'm not saying it really honestly. Yeah, but unless we're talking about freaking Plato with some abstract realm of magical forms where there is a chair that originates all other chairs and we have no evidence for this whatsoever. It's just something you thought of. Yeah. You know, and similarly, there's no external... The idea of a man or a woman is created in our minds, essentially. And we use it to interact with reality. In fact, this is actually really... Well, hang on. Because you make a statement like that, and I can't just agree because I don't think I do. I think that the nature of a man and a woman, I think it is implicit, and intrinsically tied to the biological reality of a human male and a human female, right? Because these have outside pressures pushing on them and they have to deal with those. And I hate this like, oh, this is a social construct. Okay, but we're social creatures. We need these social constructs. I don't disagree with that. But the reason that the social construct of a woman is seen by the social construct of man to be something that the man is supposed to protect is because of the physical nature of females, right? That's why they're more gracile. They have to bear children. They aren't warriors, basically, right? I mean, they've been warriors throughout history, but you're right. And usually... You know what I'm saying. I know what you're saying. The exceptions don't make the rule, you know? Yeah. So my point, I don't disagree with you entirely on that, but I think it's a very limited way of looking at it because it only presupposes that reproduction is the reason why we make these decisions. And we objectively do not make those decisions via reproduction because a woman who is infertile is still a woman, you know? Okay, let's talk about that as well, because like you say that, but I know women who have not been able to have children. I dated one for a while. And, you know, we talked about all this sort of stuff. And the overwhelming issue seems to be that... I think you are less of a woman if you can't reproduce. I mean, if you're a man... That's a horrible thing to say, man. Hey, I don't care, man. I didn't give a flying fuck. I'm talking about the truth, right? Because if you, as a man, can't get an erection, are you gonna tell me you feel as much of a man as when you could get an erection? It depends if I've tied my masculinity to my ability to get an erection or not. I think that fundamentally you can say that you haven't, but I think that there's gonna be a part of you that does feel like less of a man because you can't reproduce and even have sex. I think that you absolutely will feel like less of a man. Because I think that the essential thing about gender roles is reproduction. Okay, so gender roles are related to reproduction, but they are not objectively tied to reproduction because, again, gender roles are created by people. And they have utility for us, but, again, they don't always fit. So if a woman cannot have kids and feels like less of a woman as a result of that, that is something that she has to struggle with, but that doesn't mean she's less of a woman. It only means she feels like less of a woman. Again, you're appealing to a kind of like feels over reels here. Well, a lot of this is about how people feel about themselves, right? So, I mean, you- And also how society feels about them. Sure, but I was about to get to that. I think that society also does have a different opinion of women who can't bear children, I think that's the case. I mean, some people in society do. I would, thinking ethically about it and morally, I don't see examples of women who cannot have children no longer being considered women. If, for instance, a woman, there's no law that says an infertile woman can't use a woman's restroom. No, but we're not talking about that. What we're talking about is our interactions as humans with one another and the way that we feel about ourselves and we feel about the people. And I think that people who are infertile do feel like less of a woman or less of a man because the fertility is part of the essence of what it is to be a human. Really, evolutionarily, your purpose is to breed. That's what you've been put here for. That's not entirely the case. Of course it's the case. No, because it's not just about individuals breeding. Like with regard, even with, a good example, even with Darwinism, obviously species evolve and what's important is not necessarily that the individual, every individual passes on their genetics, but the species continues. But every, yeah, I'm not saying that, but every individual still has the same basic needs and drives that is human. There are gonna be a very, very tiny margin of exceptions. But again, they are just- But those exceptions evolved. We evolved to have those exceptions. But they evolved from an imperfect process. Well, yeah, because everything's imperfect, but you evolved from an imperfect process and so did I. Yes, absolutely, right? And so things that lay outside of the norm, the design, we accept that they're there. I mean, I don't put people persecuted or anything, but we have to understand that this doesn't mean just because there are exceptions that we can now undermine the need that the majority have for their gender roles. I mean, the thing is right, again, I personally don't care. My wife isn't in any danger of thinking she's a man or something, so I'm not worried about this. But I am genuinely worried for young men and young women who are, they have massive amounts of emotional problems, they have complete loss of meaning and they're not reproducing, they're barely even having sex. So it's just like, there seems to have been something that's gone off the rails and I do think that a part of it is undermining gender roles, because gender roles give you a purpose in life. They give you a mission, it's a teleology to the gender role. You grow up, you get married, you have kids, we need to do that. We've got to do that as a civilization or we don't carry on as a civilization, right? I mean, I can say personally, as someone who is married and has a kid, I explicitly rejected grow up, get married and have kids as a way of drawing meaning. And instead I followed Nietzsche's philosophy of the aestheticism of living one's life as a work of art. Then later on, I became a Buddhist. You can attach meaning to reproducing. But that's because you have an IQ of 145. Now imagine you have an IQ of 90. I mean, imagine that you have an IQ of 90. What don't you know? And it's not just that we don't know, it's what can't you understand? Your cognitive limit prevents you from understanding anything that we've talked about here, right? And it's not, I'm not saying this to, you know, poor scorn or something, but this is the reality that like something like 40% of the population is gonna be like IQ 90 or less. So we can't just be like, take away the things. And I think that's the point. Men and women, they're so intuitive things that they don't need to be intelligent to figure these things out, you know? And we can't just start taking away these things and then telling them, oh, you know, you can just deal with it, you know? Okay, but nobody's taking away these things. We're just expanding our ideas about them. Well, this comes back to the problem of, I mean, I could agree to something that did expand them, but I mean, what is your definition of woman? I've given my multiple times. What's your definition of a woman? My definition of a woman? Yeah. I would say a person who identifies as female as accepted by society, or at least as a number of society as a female. Right, so they identify as a female as in the biological sense. Or I'm sorry, I identify as a woman. I crossed it, I'm dyslexic. Yeah, yeah, no, no, I couldn't clarify. Sorry. Yeah, so somebody who identifies as a woman and is seen and recognized by a sizable community as a woman. Right, so it requires other people's input. Yeah, I would say so, because gender is not just an individual thing. So... No, I agree. So, because it's what society says you are. And it's actually why I think we do need to... I think American Johnson actually said it, it's kind of a cringey way to put it, but he said he considers himself a gender anarchist in the sense that, yeah, it's cringey. But he made a good point. I think he's honest. Yeah, and he made a good point in the sense that it's not so much that he wants to destroy the concepts of men or woman, it's that he does not want the concepts of men or woman to be forced onto people who find them destructive to their happiness and success. And I think that's a good way to look at it, where gender, we use the good parts of gender and we expand the parts that become limiting to better understand everyone within our society and to better collaborate, because that's what humans do. Do you think we could do something similar for ugly people? I mean, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What do you mean? Gender is in the eye of the beholder from your definition. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's both. We have it universally agreed that this person isn't actually ugly, they're beautiful. It doesn't have to be universally... Okay. Well, just agreed widely. Yeah. I mean, beauty itself is a subjective thing, is the point. Sure, but so is gender by your definition. Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of subjective things. Could we not say, I mean, I would say ugly people are by far the most oppressed people in society. Depends. Trump's pretty freaking ugly. The kids have seen the back of his head. Hideously ugly people, man. People are bigots, right? It's not fair at all, but I've noticed that it's part of life, that hideously ugly people are never treated as well as everyone else. It's messed up. Yeah, it is totally messed up. I can hate it. Right, as an ugly person, I agree. It's messed up, right? Well, Carl, you're not ugly. John Peterson's right. Would you rather be ugly or would you rather be a minority and everyone goes for minority? No one wants to be ugly. The question, do the minorities go for that? Oh, sure, why wouldn't they? If they were given the choice of being what they are or being ugly, then it probably stares what they are. Well, my point is that there are specific ugly people who are very successful. I gave Trump and his mutant family the example, but also like Richard III, who was the freaking king of England. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Allegedly, anyway. Yeah, well, no, no, they found his bones. Oh, did that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Excavating a mini mall, which is hilarious. I miss that. I normally follow a lot of history stuff. I'm surprised I miss that. It's a Shakespeare nerd. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the thing is, though, I can understand the desire that you've got, right? The desire to help. And I agree that we should try and help. Like, for example, I don't go around misgendering trans people. And it's not because people tell me to either. It's because I just want to be polite, right? If a person is making a lot of effort and there's clearly something important to them, I'm prepared to be polite. However, when you start saying that trans women are women, and I'm not even gonna, you know, we won't bring in the unbelievable lunatic activists who are the ones saying it. We'll just, we'll take it. I mean, I said it. Yeah, you're not one of those. No, I'm not. You know the time. I know what you're talking about. Okay. The very nature of what you're doing is turning an objective category into a subjective one, which does destroy anything that was attached to the objective nature of that category. But it's not an objective category. It depends how you define it. Well, like, take murder, for instance. Murder is a subjective category. It is a judgment we make about a killing, but it is based on objective criteria, but the decision to call that objective criteria murder is subjective. So, yeah, that's fair. Going to Q and A maybe in five to 10 minutes. Sure. Okay, so just what I'm saying is we will all have a subjective judgment about what we consider to be female, but the Venn diagram of that will be very much overlapped with what appears to, what can be proven to be shown to be biologically female, right? So there will be, again, fringe examples that don't fit, but generally it does fit and it is objective and there's no other further confusion if you just pin it to the biology and it does seem that there is a necessary component there to be. So that's my argument. Okay, well, I mean, it's a good argument. Thank you for making it. What I'm gonna point out is a couple of things. So first off, as I did with the example of the 17 year old girl who outpitched Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig in a row, you know, a lot of sports being segregated and it's being segregated by race or being segregated by female is not based on an actual need to segregate those sports. It's based on social segregation that we then take in to our sports, which is not to say that there shouldn't be divisions. Sorry to ask, but do you have any examples ready just out of interest? Examples of what? How it's not necessarily sex, it's not necessary from a biological point of view but it is a social segregation. I can't think of any sports where the biology doesn't play a huge role. Chess. Chess, shooting. Okay, that's not correct. There's a reason that men dominate chess and shooting. Again, it's down to the way men... Men aren't dominating shooting, men are getting mad because women are starting to win medals and shooting in the Olympics. I'll have to look that up, but otherwise there are definite reasons as in the coordination and eyesight of men is different to women and the analytical brain of a man is different to... On average. Yeah, on average, yeah. But this is why chess, for example, there actually probably should be a women's league or else women are just not gonna win chess trophies. I mean... It's the nature of the differences. There are... So this is also another big misunderstanding about how this goes because again, when we're dealing with athletes, we're dealing with heightened people. So my Shihan, the woman who taught my dojo and brought me to Black Belt, she actually did a hundred-man kumite to do it for women's right to fight because we believe that women couldn't fight for the longest time in Kyokushin. It was only men can fight, women can't train and then women can train, but they can only do kata. And then it was, okay, women can do kata and can teach, but they can only teach women, they can't teach men. And gradually she broke down these barriers. She did this 100 minute and a half fights against rotating opponents, all of which have similar skill. She got through 61 fights. She won 60 of them. Now, when I did my 15-man kumite, I forgot who I was after fight 10. So the fact of the matter is, is that what the human body is capable of, and you'll see this, like go and watch a Kyokushin match. Like if you actually watch when we do full knockdown, which is literally bare-knuckle, two Black Belts whaling on each other's torso, and like it's really cool until somebody falls. And the fact is not just that this happens, but that these people go on to do two, three, four bare-knuckle fights in a row in a day. It is one of the most mind-blowing things. And when I watched it, I was like, I can't even believe that like I'm seeing this. Now, if you actually go on my YouTube channel, there is a video, I'll link it later on, but there is a video because you talked about someone being taller. And I watched one of the best fights at Dageki, which was an international Kyokushin tournament, was a huge Polish dude going up against this tiny, tiny, I think he was Japanese because the Japanese were there and they were incredible. The Black Belt that he fought, like he looked like a little kid, like he almost didn't fit in his gi. And at the beginning, you'll even hear me in the commentary go, oh my God, it's gonna get, look how much bigger the other opponent is. And the dude kicks his ass, like knocks him out of the ring. And again, that's what sports is about. It's about taking all of these different circumstances from people's life, where they're not really on even playing fields and seeing what happens. I'm gonna give Sargon the last word just because we let you start Brenton and then we'll go into Q&A. Sure. So don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you on the ethos of competitiveness, which is I think what you're projecting there. I agree that's the heroic aspect to competition, right? To watch great deeds be done. And I love doing it myself, in fact. And some of the things you're describing really do sound exciting. I'll send you some of the info. I actually would really appreciate it. But the thing is I don't think that changes the fact that while we're talking about the exceptions, I mean, I could easily say, well, I've got videos of like the world's strongest woman just getting out on wrestle by average guys in a bar. You know, the in aggregate, when you tally everything up, women are going to be the big losers of this definitional shift. And I actually do think that women probably do deserve to have something that is biologically female only because of the inherent difference, as imperfect as it might be. And despite the fact there might be other social issues that stem from it, in their own way do need to be solved, I agree. But I do think that it does in effect. I really can see why they think that's taking something away from them. Because like with the Connecticut lawsuit, none of these girls are going to win any awards. They can't. The boys, sorry, the male to female transitions that they're playing is, I saw pictures of them, and man, it's not fair. And that's what this all comes down to is a question of fairness. And like I said, I'm not saying these people shouldn't be able to compete in X, Y, or Z. There should be ways for them to compete. That would be nice. But there definitely needs to be a carve out that talks about biological females. And that's what women means at the moment. And I don't think it's fair to take that definition away from them. We're going to jump in. James, can I respond to that right? I know you've got another round in the chamber, Brenton, but just because. I specifically prepared for it. I really do think it's a great time to get into Q and A. I totally understand, Brenton, but it's. Someone in the Q and A asked me to answer that. Everybody, I know that each of you are always going to have another round ready. So I just have to kind of push it at one point. So want to jump into it, want to remind you folks, I put both of the links of the speakers in the description box. So that way, if you'd like to hear more, you can click on those links and hear more from each of our guests. And we'll jump right into it. First, Blue Heron says universal health care saves money, even Carl agrees. Yes. Gosh, yeah, thanks for that. Blue Heron's health care is awesome. We need it. Hang on, Heron. If somebody has it, it's not without its faults. I definitely prefer it to the alternative, but it's not perfect. Yeah, well, when my son was born, they literally tried, they sent him a bill for $76,000 to try to charge him first on birth. I, like I said, I'm not saying the alternative is better, but I really don't want people who have private health care and are looking and saying all the grass is greener. It is in some ways, but it's also not in other ways. Yeah. So, you know. Gosh, thanks for that. And movie theory. Brent and you may remember this one. It says, Brenton, did your wife's boyfriend give you permission to debate today? I'm sorry. That sounds hot. You'll read everything, folks. Okay, Raven zero, thanks for your question said. Yeah, cause having more muscle, oxygen and bone structure in power output ratio is three versus eight. The three is normal female and the eight is trans. I think they're just referring to some of those studies that you heard start on, Brenton. Yeah, and that's simply not correct. And that was cited in my opening. So, and this is really big and very important to understand is the power ratio. So, especially like take, for instance, a contact sport like MMA and the big thing was made out of the one trans woman, Fallon Fox. Fallon Fox, yeah. Cracking the skull of her opponent. Now that just happens in MMA. It only takes 15 pounds of pressure per square inch to crack a skull, five pounds to crack a nose bone. Rhonda Rousey fought a cis woman. I think it was Holly somebody and she dislocated her jaw. That takes 82 to 120 PSI. So the cracking of the skull, that just happens. That's, it sounds bad. But didn't Rhonda Rousey fight Fallon Fox at one point? I don't think she fought Fallon Fox. She did say a bunch of nasty stuff about Fallon Fox. I remember very clearly a quote. I can't remember who it was from. I assumed it was Rhonda Rousey but I'm not gonna pin it on. Yeah, I think it was somebody else whoever it was had fought Fallon Fox. They'd actually beaten Fallon but they were saying, look, the punches they were receiving were like nothing else they'd ever taken. Yeah, well, I mean, if I hit somebody, I hit like a truck too. Yeah, but this is not like the same level as her peers. This is someone from a level above punching down. Yeah, but then she still won. So the point is is that when you do the HRT, like you lose muscle, you lose the ability to get the oxygen to the muscle. Your weight goes up, which means you move into a higher weight class usually. You've still got other advantages that come. Sure, but so does Michael Phelps. We, well, this'll give you a chance to respond, Sargon. So UK Marxism DLC failed. Thanks for your question said, to Sargon, if all humans have experienced breathing, have all humans known oxygen is part of it? Say again, if all humans have experienced breathing. Correct. Then have all humans known oxygen is part of it. No, but they know that air is part of it. It's got oxygen is something that has to be learned after the fact. You can't just learn it from the definition of what air is or breathing is. It's not necessary that you're breathing oxygen. You could breathe something else and then die. You might be another type of life form that doesn't require oxygen and breathe something other than oxygen, carbon or something, I don't know. The fact that it's oxygen is something we learn after the fact, but every human has always known they need air, which is just the word they use for the whatever it is they can feel coming in and out of their mouth and their nose when they're breathing in. They know that that's air. They don't necessarily know the composition of it. Gotcha. And Sentinel apologetics, typical theology guy, apparently he enjoyed listening, says Kung Pao enter the fist, that's a lot of nuts. I haven't seen that movie. That must be a movie reference. Yeah, and this is really funny too because there's a guy in Kung Pao enter the fist that they trained wrong on purpose as a joke. So like he goes in and he's like, how did you like my face to your fist technique? And keeps insisting he won because he's bleeding and loosing. It's kind of like when- So like the Black Knight from Monty Python. Yeah, yeah, kind of like that, yeah. Except if the Black Knight, if his entire ability to fight was based on trying to hurt himself. Thank you for that. And Rodney Fulberg, thanks for your question. I said, statement, Bretton, no, when you say transgender women aren't stronger than cis women, herd of Fallon Fox, Ashley Evans Smith said transfighter punch was stronger. Okay, we just covered that. And if you want to respond, you can, otherwise we won't. And I think this comes from just basic mechanics, like having broader shoulders, narrow waist, longer arms, bigger hands, you know, like stronger sinews, muscles that are probably more likely to be better. You know, there are just natural structural advantages there. There are some advantages. If trans people transition before puberty, those are completely removed. But if they transition after puberty, you could make an example, like for instance, for powerlifting, there might be a small advantage taken in like the strength of their tendons because they've gone through puberty. And that's why I think the leagues themselves have to make these decisions. Now, as far as, you know, some fighters are stronger than other fighters. Some fighters are faster than other fighters. Some fighters have a better weight to ratio. This is within what we expect of sports. And even if trans women have advantages in certain areas, again, Michael Phelps has huge advantages. His muscles do not get tired. And I cannot express to you how important that is in swimming, his ability to go beyond what people can do normally, just because of the way his body is naturally, heal faster, his legs are shorter, his arms are longer, he still gets to compete. Yeah, sure. But he's, he fits the criteria of someone who can compete in that category, which is a biological. Yeah, but only because we've based it on gender, which is not necessarily the best way to base it. I think it's the only way, because we're gonna have problems in any other ways, but sorry, let's... We'll have problems in everything. Including that way. But women will still get to have their own sports if we have a biological women's category. Women have their own sports now. We must. They won't if we carry them. They've had it for 16 years. Why aren't every, why isn't every... We must, we must move on. It's not happening. You're all, you... Trans people should be proud of their achievements, man. They've, they've... They should be. Women. We've got a question from Terry J. He says, hi, James, please ask Sargon to go on to the kill stream. You're a hot commodity, Sargon. They want you on the kill stream. I'm always in demand. Yeah. Don't go talk to Nazis. I did it. It's not, it's not fun. Do you not know that I spent like two years debating them? Yeah, yeah, no. I'm aware. I'll actually watch some of those to prepare for my debates with JF and Stryker. Michael Dresden, old friend of yours, Breton says you have 145 IQ or 145 ounces of soy per day. No, it's fine. And no, I don't do soy. Soy is largely bad for you. I do, and I've got the name of it now because I looked it up afterwards. I use Vega protein powder, which is pea-based as in green peas and, yeah. And a good clavication. Yeah, and like, it's got pumpkin seeds and all that other stuff. Mix that with cashew milk. You get a better amino acid profile than you'd have from whey. You build muscle faster, you're stronger, and you don't have to deal with it if you're lactose intolerant like I am. So no soy, but vegetable protein. Rodney Foulberg, thanks for your question. It says, drinking aquafina water, James, changing to Icelandic. Actually, this is Arrowhead, so another not a sponsor. But Tom Ives, thanks for your question. It says, does Breton agree that transition does not negate most physical differences between men and women? It doesn't negate physical differences. It does mitigate any possible advantages within normal realm for the sport in question, with very little exception. I have to contest that both in the logic of it and the fact of it. If it doesn't negate the differences, but we agree the differences are advantageous, then how is it not also still conferring advantages? Well, the differences aren't always advantageous. For instance, transitioning can increase weight, for instance, and if that bumps you up into a weight class with someone with way more power than you, you're going to get destroyed. Yeah, and then also, there's certain sports, for instance, where even within running, the 100 and 200 meter dash are not correlated with high testosterone with winning them, whereas a 5K is not correlated with that either. Higher testosterone competitors don't tend to win 5Ks, but they do tend to win sprinting events. So depending upon the individual sport in question, any biological trait can be an advantage or a disadvantage. But just to say then, so we can, as a corollary, say that what we need to do is ban trans-female-to-male transgenders from competing in the bans 5K. Oh, no, you do not want to do that. No, no, no, because here's the thing. They actually tried that with wrestling. And this is a big thing with the freaking terfs, who are fake feminists, by the way. So the freaking this female-to-male trans-wrestler got very, very famous because he transitioned and wanted to compete with his men. Specifically, the advantage for women, I found this in my research when I was preparing for this, is that women tend to be good at long-distance running, because they're lighter than men. Well, they're lighter. They have a higher pain tolerance, a lower center of gravity. The center of gravity changes when you transition. Yeah. But the point is then women have an actual advantage over men in long-distance running that is unfair for a female-to-male transition I don't know if they have an overall advantage over men. There are aspects where they have advantages over men. Like when I was on the Appalachian Trail, I feel like women have an advantage with through hiking because they have a lower center of gravity, higher pain tolerance, and the ability, and this is crazy for women, the ability to regenerate muscle. So at the end of the AT, guys, we're almost skeletons. It's just muscle and bone. And women, because they have that 5% fat store constantly, when they run out of calories, they can still continue to create muscle. So walking long distances is really huge for women. Yeah. Next. So there are biological differences that affect these categories. I'm going to give Brenton the last word. He could be the first one to, I'm sorry? I said I'm going to give Brenton the last word because the challenge from the person was from for him. Oh, OK. And what the hell was the challenge? It was Fallon Fox he was bringing up? No, the last one was does Brenton agree that transition does not negate most physical differences between men and women? Yeah. So I think Sargon can agree with this. And I've heard him make this argument in the economic sphere and in the social sphere is equality is not sameness. So none of us are the same. We're all different. We're all unique. And society is us coming in and taking our unique talents and perspectives and using it in such a way that we bring out ourselves and those around us. Nella, Dower, thanks for your question. Said it's so weird no one can ever talk trans issues without talking about what sex with us is like. Stay on topic, boy. I agree that's weird. Leave the mouth feel to counterpoint. Got you. Who brought having sex with trans people? I think you did. I mean, we were talking around sex with the opposite sex. Maybe it was the Ace Ventura. I don't remember. It might have been. But treated. Thanks for your question. Said Brenton, don't you think you're being intellectually dishonest when you say that the number of trans people aren't going to affect the birth rate? We all know that's not true. The number of trans people. I didn't say I wasn't even talking about birth rate. So I have no idea what you're talking about. I was saying to Sargon, if I recall, what was going on was I was saying that the elimination or the expanding definitions of men and women are not going to confuse people and suddenly they don't know who they're having sex with or breeding with. I think they do. And I think that's what accounts for the murder rate for trans people. I mean, there's a lot, I think, that goes into that. And if you look at some of the interviews, the post-interviews with someone who's murdered a trans woman post having sex with them, like these are guys that have deep seated issues. They're incredibly homophobic. And I think a lot of them wanted to have sex beforehand, then felt disgusting after because of what they'd been taught and lost their minds. It's really horrible and tragic. Must move to the next one. Earl Reigns answered your question and said, how are we supposed to gather statistics on gender issues, like gender pay gap, et cetera, if we cannot acknowledge a link between the sex and gender? I mean, you can, people acknowledge a link between sex and gender, but sex is not gender. It's not the same thing. Just to be clear, the intersectional argument actually isn't that there is a connection between sex and gender. Gender is constructed and somehow transcendent from the human experience. I mean, I don't know why I think that's like, what is it? I think it's Judith Butler. She talks about gender essentially being performative. So it's, there is a role in society that people are expected to perform and gender performance is gender. That's like me saying like the color of a car is red and therefore it doesn't matter if it's got an engine in it or not, right? The car might well be red and I could paint a car red, but if it's got no engine in it, it's not going anywhere. And that's the same sort of analogy here because you might have someone who looks like a committed woman and you didn't know if they aren't capable of breeding, you're not gonna settle down and have a family with them, right? So there is an essential biological component to the nature and meaning of gender. And as I said, Judith Butler is turning into something that is not connected to the biology. It's connected merely to her performance. It's something separate to a human that a human can just step up into. And that's, I don't do that. Yeah, but the breeding isn't necessarily connected to the biology as well. I mean, this is kind of like Kant's, yeah, okay, it's like an if then statement. If you want breeding, then you should do this. Sentinel apologetics, thanks. Says this is a interesting fact, loves history. Says ancient sport was a homosexual form of entertainment before the internet. Barbaric tribes would select an alpha male or a team of alpha males to compete against each other and other tribes for money, fame, and sex. Thank you. Mark Spence, thanks for your work. Often it was political power. Wait, can we respond to that? If you like short and sweet. If you like political power, status, fame, bragging rights in the tavern, or wherever they go drinking, the symposium, whatever it is, if there are lots of reasons to do sport. Yeah, there's a ton of reasons to do sports. And the Olympic village, had I known this when I was younger, I might have tried harder to get into the Olympics, like there's a lot of sex going on in the Olympic village. But like, you know, as far as like, yeah, I agree with Sargon on that. There's a lot of reasons to do sports. Mark, all of these incredibly fit young people together. What a shock. Sports are like a mystical sport. Appreciate your question. It says we have become a people that believe gender is fluid, but we fight for women's rights. Very contradictory. No, it's not contradictory at all. The fact is, is that gender is not fluid in everyone. And the idea is, is that gender is subjective. But those who have a certain gender being unfairly discriminated against, absolutely need to have their rights brought to bear. It's the same thing. I mean, race doesn't exist on the genetic level, but obviously race is important socially. So what happens is, is that you have stuff like the civil rights movement. People seem to get confused when they think that objective means good and right. And like, subjective means arbitrary and based on a whim, it's not. There are plenty of subjective things that are very important, like money, for instance. Yes, yes. But let me, let me just clarify. Objective means independently verifiable. Someone else can verify this without your presence being there, without your input. I mean, you can kind of say it, run it forward. The thing is, like, again, the race issue is the same. Like, if race has no genetic component, how is it that people from Africa have such consistently dark skin? You should watch my debate with JF, actually, on this where we get into it. Trying to have a position. Yeah, the, so the reason why people from Africa have consistently dark skin. Gotta be the last response. Yeah. So, do you want me to cut this off or do you want to? Yeah, well, it's a different discussion. Yeah, it's a different debate. Next up, Swim Apar. Thanks for your question. Said, what should the sex and gender criteria be in order to be eligible for women's and men's events? Could we be eligible for both? I don't see... There's no reason why not to. Yeah, I don't see a reason why not making somebody who's intersex or trans necessarily be eligible for both. I would think it would have to do with the rulings of the specific league and the divisions that they create. Yeah, but again, that comes from the idea of a subjective definition of male or female, a man or woman. I would go for the objective definition. So that would prevent them from, it would be either or. Gotcha. Jessica G, two-part question. Thanks so much. Said, men shouldn't be debating this. Biological women should. By the way, I mean, technically, it's Brenton's fault. He asked, so... Yeah, there's no such thing as a biological woman. There is a biological female. It's not done yet. We'll come back to you. But yeah, long story short, folks, we've had trans people on and we will continue to have trans people on. It's just that we're also, when people want to debate, we're not gonna say, well, you're not the right demographic to debate this. But we will, I'm absolutely happy to have this topic be debated by two trans individuals, absolutely. But they said... Liberal identity politics is garbage. They said men shouldn't be debating this. Biological women should. If they want to compete with trans women, that's one thing. They shouldn't be forced to, and if said women don't want to, they shouldn't be demonized for not wanting to compete with trans women. Most women don't speak out because they get roasted over the coals and called transphobic. So I think Brenton's point about the turfs being insufferable is completely underscored by that first line. Why can't two men discuss this? There's this fine for us to discuss this. You can go and discuss it with as many women as you like, anytime you like. But the subsequent part I actually really do agree with. The problem with allowing trans women into biologically women's spaces is that the biological women have nowhere else to go. And I, like I said, I don't like the turfs because they're insufferable. But I do think they have a point there. And I do think it's unfair. I mean, what I would say, can you read the last part again? Because I had a response but then flew out of my head because Sargon said stuff. You bet. The last thing they said was most women don't want to speak out because they get roasted over the coals and called transphobic if they don't want to compete with trans women. So if you speak out about not wanting to compete with a trans woman, you will rightly get dragged over the coals because that, not because you are a woman but because that is poor sportsmanship. And this is something that's really, really important about sports. And this is, it goes back to kind of my point with like high school sports. What we are doing with sports, especially on the amateur level is we're not only entertaining people and pushing the boundaries with ourselves, but what we are doing is we are teaching ourselves to win and lose gracefully and to compete with honor and to compete in a way that honors you and honors your competitors. If you go into a sport and you look at and you see a trans woman over there and you say, ooh, I don't want to compete with that or oh, she's a man, clearly she will defeat me. That's a very bad attitude and you need to be corrected by your team and your peers in just the same way that if I came in and started complaining that another male swimmer was taller than me and he would definitely beat me, my coach would be furious with me and I would be furious with any swimmer who spoke like that. What's to stop me from just inverting what you've said there and saying, well, anyone who says that trans women should be able to compete with women is disgusting and wrong and needs to be corrected. And the philosophy of sports. And that's not just an answer to that. I'm gonna give a card on the last word on this one. But the institutions and society and the activists on Twitter, what we can just summarize as cancel culture is real and it is brutal and it does scare people into silence. And one of the things that we haven't talked about surrounding this is this kind of thuggish mob atmosphere that comes from trans activists, not yourself, of course, but you know what I'm talking about. You know, this is real. I'm aware there was an instant, we were actually having rules that was really bad and it was the farm and stuff. And this is a very unhealthy thing and the turf is right, she should be able to voice her opinion without being harassed. I mean, harassed. Nella Dower, I'm so sorry. Otherwise I'm gonna have a mob after me. We've got a lot of questions. Nella Dower said, into it is to know or understand something because of a feeling that you have rather than because of the facts or what someone has told you. Everybody agree, fair enough? Yeah, I agree. Fair. Moyet Morgan says, Sargon, why is a spirit God a man without biology? Sorry, second. I'm confused by it too. They said, why is a spirit God a man without biology? I'm guessing why our image of God is God the father? Yeah, I'm an atheist, but it's probably just due to the fact that these ideas were conceived of by men. Yeah. Also, the Hebrew God, our pop culture vision is informed by Zeus. That's why he's got robes in the long beard. Next up, Ilya Moon, thanks for your question, said, can't have kids now, still feel very womanly. Yes, thank you. Do you English loyalist? If you want, I can give you a- I suppose I am here. If you want to give a pithy response, Sargon, I can give you a chance to. I'm glad you do, but when the test comes between you and a fertile 18 year old, you'll probably feel less womanly then. Next up. Dude, that's not cool. I know, but the thing is it's true. No, it's not. You don't know anything about this woman. I absolutely do. She's an adult human female and she can't give birth. Yeah, okay. So let me say, I'm 37 and I'm no longer cut like I used to be cut. When I see a freaking 18 year old dude who's like really buff, I don't feel like less of a man around him. In fact, I feel like more of a man usually. Because women start at their most womanly and decline, and men start at their least manly. How has your wife not thrown you out of the house? God, she's not, she's honest. She knows that's true. That's the whole woman are worried about their husbands running off with the younger model. Not my wife. Next up, the English loyalist says, we Navajos don't believe in the LGBT. It is not our culture. It is said white men like Brenton tend to make things more difficult than they already are. I mean, that's idiotic. So first of all, the Native Americans, I don't know about the Navajo tribe in particular, but the Native Americans had two spirits for a long time. In fact, the like very strict gender roles that were introduced were introduced by the white man, by Christianity, by monotheism. But the point that he's making though is that the proposal you're making will make things more complex and more difficult for people who just want to find a wife or a husband and settle down and have family. Because like I said, everyone's 145 IQ. Yeah, I mean, if someone has, this is a problem that a lot of people don't have to deal with. This is beyond the scope of the discussion that we have, which is specifically should trans women be able to compete in sports with cis women? I don't see how a trans woman competing in sports with a cis woman would suddenly make somebody who happens to be a little dumb have trouble finding a partner. It doesn't, they have nothing to do with each other. They may cause existential dread because he suddenly worries he might not be able to find a partner because what if they're all trans women? But that's also not really the case. Must move on to the next one. Let's see, I think that, if I remember right, that one was directed toward Brenton. So Damien Demento, thanks for your question, said you should be discussing 2066, not this soy. What is 2066? Does somebody know that? Okay. No idea, sorry. That sounds like it might be a Nazi meme. Because I know they have some memes relating to 20 and the moon and stuff. I don't know what the 66 is. Really? Yeah, yeah, there's a movie about Nazis on the moon base and then the Nazis will put moons on their avatar and shit is really stupid. I did a quick Google and apparently all I'm getting is 2066 motherboard from Amazon and things like that. So yeah, I don't know what it relates to. We can have a debate on motherboards next time. Eric Wade, thanks for your question, said if a trans woman hits me, I'll hit her back. If Amber heard hit me with a saucepan, I'd be pleased. We'll just put it that way. I don't know who Amber heard is. She's Johnny Depp's ex and she's awful. She levels of fake accusations against him and everyone turned on him and then the recordings came out and he's still just generally no one wants to talk about it but he's totally been maligned and totally hard done by all this. He's unfair, completely. Yeah, that sucks. I would say that's an effective patriarchy, unfortunately. It's an effect of women who can get away with it. Well, yeah, but they can get away with it because patriarchal gender stereotypes say that they're weak and they can't actually hit men. Like a lot of stuff is feminist say that they're oppressed and they can't really have it do anything wrong and punching up is always just, you know? I think, you know. That's the reason. If you get hit by a- You have to keep moving. I'm so sorry, Bretton, I promise. Don't worry, we have, let's see. Mark Spence says, I can't believe it's only men and women who are getting the coronavirus, zero reports from the other plus 100 genders. I mean, that's because what's being reported is being reported by hospitals and they only report male or female. I'm sure plenty of trans people have gotten corona and corona is probably uniquely dangerous to trans people. I would guess, I don't know. Why would it be uniquely dangerous? Well, like for instance, my wife, she has Crohn's disease and as a result of that, she's a moderate to high risk of COVID and you know, she's a young woman in good shape but she could be killed by it if she gets it. Remember what Crohn's disease is? It's a disease of inflammation in the stomach. So like she has to take immunosuppressors to bring down the inflammation. So I would figure with transitioning, I haven't looked up the data on this but I would assume that people who are in trans communities or have gone through gender reassignment might be more vulnerable to something like that just because of the medication. I don't know that for a fact though so I could be completely talking on my hands. To the next one, Ilya Moon, a critic of you tonight, Sargon says, Sargon, you don't have the depth or knowledge of women to have the power to consider me less a woman because I can't have children. I think that the reason that you're reacting so strongly to that is because subconsciously you know that's true. I think the reason is you're being a dick to her. No, I'm not being a dick to her. I don't know who the hell that is, right? But I think it is a true statement that a man who can't get an erection feels like less of a man and I think it is also a true statement that a woman who can't conceive feels like less of a woman. I know because I've met women like this. Now, it's just the fact, you know. You're kind of universalizing a subjective experience in saying that it's a fact because you in your mind see it as a fact. Every single woman or every single man is gonna be like this, but generally I think these are true statements. I feel like that's a hasty generalization and I also say that I don't think there's anything endemic about it. We have a culture that does try to say that for instance women who can't conceive might be less of a woman and we do have a culture that makes fun of men who can't get an erection. But this comes from the essential nature of being biological creatures. Yeah, or it comes from culture. Yeah, but all cultures are like this. All cultures shame men who can't have children or can't get erections when they come to see. That is not correct. And in fact, the thing is that... No, no, no, it's not correct because it's the same thing like with... There were certain schizophrenic people, for instance. In previous cultures, like in cultures that were still hunting, oftentimes people suffering from what we call these conditions were given a specific place of honor because they had a perspective that the society didn't see and they were seen as shamans and holy people. I have ADD, same thing. It's not a debilitating thing. It's a genetic condition because people like me used to be very valuable to society but then we got regimented into this particular society that we have where we need to sit down and pay attention and work and don't go off and dream and think about other things. And so I'm forced to become a shiftless artist whereas before I might've been an explorer or a shaman. Sure, but if you go just walk around the street and go up to a man and say, if you couldn't get an erection, would you feel like less of a man? They'd say yes. Dylan, we've got to be moving. I'm so sorry to do this, guys. Dylan G, thanks for your question. Said Sargon, did Breton, using the word kumite, bring up any bad memories? I don't know what that means. Kumite. Kumate, okay. No, what's it mean? Gotcha. And is it like a Marshall? Okay, Marshall next term. Next up, Shreedid, thanks for your question. Says Breton, what about Fallon Fox? I've talked about Fallon Fox twice already. Let's keep going. Good enough, call of the void. Said Sargon on parlor. Is that true, Sargon? I'm at Sargon on parlor, yes. Gotcha. Gross. And, okay, next. Matthew Steele, thanks for your question. Said Sargon, would you agree that bigotry should be considered morally reprehensible on all issues and if not, which issues should be exceptions? Well, I mean, I'm really jaded about the judgment of people for opinions these days. I'm really tired of it because there are people who say things or say that they think things but have done the measurable harm and they're getting absolutely crushed. Whereas people who I can see have done measurable harm claim to believe the right thing and are, you know, not bigots. And they get a pass while I can see them doing harm. So I think that bigotry generally is not nearly as prevalent as the left would have us believe. And it's not nearly as damaging. It's action that I think is most damaging. I think it's the actions that matter. Gotcha. I'll just say with that, we got a bigot in the White House and it's been horrible for people since then. I do agree that there are fewer bigots around there. But every, everyone is a bigot in some way because bigotry just means intolerance of other people's ideas. If you can't accept that a woman is an adult human female, then you're a massive bigot to turfs. I mean, that's not how we use bigotry in everyday parlance. Bigotry usually means someone who is extremely against people because of factors that they cannot control. Well, no, it's not, it's any kind of prejudice really, isn't it? Yeah, but it usually prejudice factors around things that folks can't control or are important parts of their identity. But this is a real complex issue because it effectively, I don't wanna go into it. It's a long thing to unpack, I wanna go into it. Kiefer Brown thinks your question said, no culture has ever failed to draw the connection between manhood or womanhood and reproductive roles. If the connection is arbitrary, why would that be? The connection is an arbitrary, it's subjective. There's a difference. Yes, cultures have. And in fact, I'm remembering, because I thought about this more throughout, it was because farmers did not understand that like, for instance, two cows breeding would produce that specific cow. Instead they were like, oh, I have a bunch of cows, I put them together and then suddenly I get baby cows. And that's actually how they determined it because the written and oral records came and I think they even went into the discovery of, oh, I can breed this to this and get this. So we know for a fact that there were definitely pre-state cultures that did not have this concept. All humans have always thought that the gender roles are objective and necessary and connected to reproduction. You would have to prove that. And you can't prove that because we don't have a record going back that far. Then you can't prove what you just stated. Yes, but again, it is reasonable to assume the negative and where I have evidence indicating in that. It's totally reasonable to assume that. You never want to assume. No, it is. An ancient woman understood that they were women. It's totally. That's assuming a positive and it leads us into, I know what we've seen. There's nothing wrong with assuming a positive if there's good evidence to assume it. But there isn't good evidence to assume it anyway. There is, every human understands these things. Yeah, I just get habit of the country. I just get habit of the country. This question was targeting Brenton. We'll give Brenton the last word and then move to the next one. Okay, just move to the next one. I don't remember what the question was. Ilia Moon, thanks for your question said, Ilia is, Ilia's, what's the phrase from of mice and men? Ilia has not given anybody breaks today. Says, for the idiots in the chat, not that I should have to explain, but I'm a cis woman and it was me or my ovaries, my parents chose me. Gotcha, thanks for that. We appreciate your passion, Ilia. And Nelladour, thanks for your super chat, says anyone see the rematch between Fallon Fox and Ashley Evans Smith when Ashley kicked her butt? No one ever seems to talk about it. Why is that? It's what I was talking about earlier. We don't talk about trans women when they lose. We only talk about them when they win. So this creates in the media a false image that they're dominating and they're simply not. If Fallon Fox was fighting against men and identified as a man, technically speaking from a skill level, how do you think she'd do? Fallon Fox? Yeah. You know, has she gone through gender transition? No, it's just looking at the skill level that Fallon Fox displays. If she was a man, would she be a good fighter? I think Fallon Fox is a damn good fighter. I think she's shit. I've only watched a few of her fights, but she looks really poor to me. Okay, why does she look poor to you? What did she want? Generally missing, missing, you know, missing hits, missing opportunities and taking hits that I... I mean, I'm not a professional or anything and I don't watch this very regularly. But I was just watching and thinking, Christ, you know, I've seen two men fighting and they look a lot more competent than Fallon Fox. I don't think Fallon Fox is a very good fighter. And I don't know anyone saying that she is either. She's not like the best. She's fairly decent. She's mainly famous because she's a trans woman as opposed to, but like even against other women, she's not the best fighter, but she's pretty good. Taking hits actually isn't necessarily anything. The fact is that a lot of people don't understand this, but with regard to MMA and Kokushin Karate, there's a big part of it is body conditioning, where you literally can build your muscles out in such a way that you can absorb damage. It's why if you take Kokushin... I think it sounds like does Fallon Fox have a natural advantage there? With regard to body conditioning? Yeah. No, I think she has a natural disadvantage actually. She might have a natural advantage on hitting, but not body conditioning. Oh, come on. This is a challenging route. She's got a higher fat level than the loss of muscle mass. The challenge being for Sargon. Hold on. I'm going to give Sargon the last word. Dude, bigger body does not... I'm going to give Sargon the last word on this one because it was a challenge to him. So, go. Yeah, I think Fallon Fox has got an obvious natural advantage over biological women because she's born a man, and it's this that puts Fallon Fox even anywhere on the map. I think that Fallon Fox is fighting in a male competition they knocked out and no one would care about. Next question from Earl Rain. Says, how are we supposed to determine gender prejudice if they self-identify? Doesn't the issue result from how other people identify them? Yes. It does with both. So if someone has a self-identification that this is their identity and they know it in their mind and in their heart, it hurts when someone else thinks they're something that they're not. I've felt that pain my entire life, not in regard to my gender, but just regard to when people try to fit you into a box that you don't fit into. So it can be very abusive. That said, it depends on like, we have personal components and we have social components and social components require the recognition of ourselves by the rest of society. And that's one of the reasons why I think we absolutely should do that because it's abuse when we don't. Next. Or oftentimes it's abuse. Oh, Damien Demento, thanks for your clarification, said, 2066 equals demographic replacement in Britain. Ah, okay. That's what they were referring to. Ah! Next, Dylan Heave, I think he's proven. Says, morning, Kumate, Tonka, Worsky, that crowd. Oh, Tonka, man. No, no, I like Tonka. Tonka's a nice guy. Gotcha. And Call of the Void, thanks for your statement, said, yes, join Parler, follow Sargon and others. Thanks for that. Anyway, from Parler. It's full of a bunch of neo-Nazis that couldn't stay on like normal. It is not full of neo-Nazis. It's full of Republicans and the Krasensteins are on there as well. And then honestly, right? So it's full of horrible people. Yes, right? And there's a part of me that feels kind of bad for the Krasensteins because they're in it. It's not Nazi, it's Republican. And it's, you know, it is like the Republican echo chamber to Twitter's left-wing echo chamber. And the Krasensteins get mobbed on every post. And I do feel, you guys should come over and help them out, just to help. Dude, the Krasensteins are scammers. They deserve everything that they're getting. Next up, Turbo, appreciate your question statements that I would not seek a serious relationship with a woman I couldn't have a child with. Bretton, do sexual prejudices such as mine make me bigoted? No, they don't make you bigoted. I mean, so there was a period early on when I decided to have my son, for instance, with my wife and I, when we decided there was a period that she took a test and it looked like she might be infertile early on. And I remember getting hit with that just because it's so important for me to be a father. And I'm like, oh my God, how am I gonna deal with this? Is this my karma? What's gonna happen here? And, you know, I would have stayed with my wife and I would have adopted and I would have continued to be a father. But like, and luckily, you know, we were able to conceive. She actually didn't have any problems. It was just a botched test. But no, that doesn't make you a bigot just because you wanna have kids or even you wanna have biological kids. That's a natural thing. It would make you a bigot if you thought that people who couldn't were somehow deficient. But there will be people who will advance the argument that that is a bigoted position on there. Yeah, but there's people who are gonna do or say anything. They don't have power and I not really can. A lot of them really do have power. I mean, at the moment, university professors and politicians and corporations are backing some pretty radical left positions. You know, I hear this a lot from your side and it's just not true because I've spent a lot of time on the radical left and the fact is like the radical left does not have a lot of power and it can be very loud because social media focuses in on radical voices and amplifies them because they drive engagement. But like, you know, the vast majority of people are not leftists. Yeah, but they're under a leftist regime. That's the problem. What? Trump? Trump is a leftist regime? Trump doesn't have a choice. He doesn't get to control the universities, right? In my country with hate speech laws, that's a leftist innovation. I mean, your country has hate speech law. You realize what happened to Europe because of hate speech, right? Like the Second World War? Do you think the rise of the Nazis because people got to say things? I mean, the rise of the Nazis has a lot going on, but part of it was the institutional culture of anti-Semitism. And also part of it was like economics and part of it was the fact that... Do you know that Hitler, when he first went to Munich, was it... Oh, no, not Munich. Capital of the Austro-Hungarian. Venice. When he first went to Venice, he was strongly against the anti-Semitic press. And it was as they were being censored that he made him look into them and actually find himself agreeing with them. So here's the issue. Hitler, from his own writings, was anti-Semitic from a very, very young age. No, he was not. He absolutely was. Also, he was a freaking nut. So... Did he just get mad and run off because I said Hitler was anti-Semitic? It might be something else. It's all right. I didn't want to have to do this, but I'm literally going to read you the passage where Hitler tells us about his anti-Semitism. Yes, because Hitler noted person who told the truth frequently. Hitler has no reason to lie about his journey into hating the Jews. Sure he does. No, he doesn't. Hitler has every reason to lie about to make himself look good. I know both of you are saying... He's not interested. He thinks killing Jews is good. Can we not read Hitler on this? Can I know that? I know both of you. Don't say things that you don't know because you don't know that. And I do know the case. I know both of you hate Hitler. And I agree with you. I also hate Hitler. You're just wrong. It is censorship that made him an anti-Semitic. It made him look into it. There is an... Initially, that's exactly what you wrote. Send that to me later on. We can have a conversation off the thing with there with your sudden weird urge to defend Hitler. Look, I'm not. I'm defending free speech and attacking censorship because censorship was key in the rise of Hitler. That's why. I'll take a look at it. But I'm going to say I'm incredibly sparrowless about this because I've read a lot about Hitler's youth. Yeah, but you need to read a bit of yourself. He'll talk about it. Let's move on to the next one. Illya Moon, thanks for your question, said Sargon, 18-year-old female, is still too young to be a woman. If... Or she said, I'm a woman... Not legally in my country. I don't know a country. I'm a woman, complete woman and feel very much like a woman. Kiss my ass. I would love to, but I'm married. But, you know, maybe one day I'll divorce. But no, 18 is the legal age in this country. Why wouldn't I use that? Next up. Don't you think it's a little arbitrary to base it on legality? We've got to. I want to give them the last word. OK, so you keep going. Of course it's arbitrary. Let's see. Puncher says Sargon wouldn't know a real woman if she slapped him in the face and from the sounds of it, he has... Oh, gosh. Are you serious? Am I an incel? Am I an incel? I have an incel. So you've got a critic out there, I guess. It is. My wife will be so thrilled. Sunflower. I'll look at an incel. Sunflower, thank you for your question, says if transitioning doesn't, quote, necessarily, unquote, impart an advantage or disadvantage, shouldn't trans people be allowed to go back and forth between gender leagues? So the quote on that is that it does not give an advantage. And they're doing that in the study. They're doing that specifically with relation to norms within cis women's leagues and cis men's leagues. So essentially what they're saying is that trans women, when they take testosterone, do not have a performance advantage over cis men. Or I'm sorry, trans men do not have an advantage over cis men. They're not doping. They're within the normal levels of testosterone. And similarly, with trans women, when they block estrogen and, or I'm sorry, when they block testosterone and add estrogen, they are within the norm. So no, you couldn't jump back and forth between a male and female league because the measures of what is normal is different between the leagues. Or at least that's the Olympics decision on it. Next, appreciate your super sticker from, this is from Wolf. We have just a few more folks. We're going to try to just read through these last ones that we have, we have three more questions and then we want to let Sargon go to bed. He's over in England, so he's got to get to bed at a decent time. Cole of the Void, thanks for your question, said, I advocate parlor for free speech. I'm not Republican at all. I'm by center. Just don't want to be arrested for my thoughts. My freeze peach. Here's the thing, like- It's so important because you'll be surprised, right? That's why you mock it. If you were on the receiving end, you wouldn't be self-lipping. Here's the thing. I am coming from America, where we are like free speech is the first amendment. So, and yeah, the other thing though, that what I will say is, is while I agree with the first amendment, I think the way America handles speech is very important. I also think that just because the state can't go out after you and put you in jail for what you say does not mean that hate speech should not be opposed. Because the fact is, is that if someone engages in hate speech, what they are doing is they are limiting the ability of other people to speak. And you saw that when Nazis took over poll board on 4chan. There needs to be a level of, it's a paradox, but there needs to be a level of intolerance. There has to be a referee to make sure that the ability to speak freely is maximized. And that can be done in a number of ways, though I don't think it's a good idea to use the state because the state will abuse that power. But mob justice is no justice at all. I mean, I'm not talking about just, I'm not talking about like just mob justice. But that is what cancel culture is at the moment. It's the tyranny. Yeah, I don't support cancel culture. So that was, I was thinking more Antifa to tell you the truth. By the way. That's the direction of liberal democracy. Related, we do have, someone just reached out to me. We have several people wanting to debate cancel culture. One of them is like radically against it. One of them is like somewhat for it. So if there are other people that's the topic we want to explore. So feel free to email me at moderndatabate at gmail. Next, McCabrey Malafika. Thanks for your question. Said, watching start now, the actual F societal prohibition against incest equals knowledge that sex makes babies. People like Brent have no respect for knowledge. I have, what is that person trying to say? I don't think Brent said that. Yeah, I'm confused. But turbo, thanks for your question. Said, this is, I think the last one we have. So they said, so Brent agrees, seeking out a woman who can bear children is not bigoted, but is having sexual prejudice based on a person's skin color or gender bigoted? So this is what I'll say. If so, because Nazis ask this question all the time, but I'm going to assume that you're not a Nazi and you're asking it in good faith. So the, no, no, seriously, like JF wanted to ask that question. He was like chomping at the bit in our debate. So the fact is, is that if you have like a fetish for somebody with a specific skin tone or whatever, I don't have a problem with that. I'm not going to kink shame anyone. Choosing who you are attracted to is not something that you can completely control. But what I would also say is if you're sitting there and you're like, ooh, I don't want this person because they've got a bad skin tone or ooh, I'm not interested in this. I would say examine that and see what you're actually not interested in. Because like a lot of the time we will limit ourselves and limit our ability to love and be full human beings because we're afraid of not what we think but what other people might think. And that can be very toxic to everybody. So love who you love. I'm fine with that, you know, but just also be introspective and approach things in good faith and put yourself to the test. Just to help out the person who's asking is this a form of bigotry or prejudice? I think really that can only apply when someone is entitled to something from you, entitled to fair treatment or something like that. No one is entitled for you to be attracted to them. So the question just never actually arises. That's actually a good point. Gotcha, and next up, thank you so much for your question from Sponge. For Brenton, if Dwayne Johnson identified as female and competed any woman's powerlifting, would that be fair? I mean, if Dwayne Johnson identified as, well, first of all, he's not a powerlifter. So he might not actually do that well. You know, he's a wrestler. He's pretty huge though. Yeah, but huge doesn't necessarily mean you win. And that's key, like they have, against powerlifters have shaped themselves to do specific things. It's the same reason why you can't take a bodybuilder and throw them into a karate match and they'll get their ass kicked, despite being huge. But if he went through two years of HRT and did gender reassignment surgery and then competed within his weight class, he probably wouldn't dominate. Next, wanna say huge thanks to our guests. I have linked them in the description folks. So that way, if you wanna hear more, what are you waiting for? You can by clicking those links. Wanna say a huge thanks to them. Sargon and Brenton, it's been a true pleasure to have you guys. Thank you. Wanna say- I'll send you those videos, Sargon. And if you like, I'll also send you a digital copy of my comic book. You might get a kick out of it. Oh, thank you. No, I'd really appreciate that. Cause I mean, those videos do sound really good. I like watching that kind of stuff as well. You know, very, very, I don't do any martial arts or anything myself, but I don't, you know, I'm not gonna turn my nose up at a good fight. Absolutely. Yeah, you should take it up. Oh, that actually reminded me. So my Shihan who runs my dojo in New York, we talked about age and taking up stuff like at a specific age. She was actually, I'm 37 now, and I think she was 40 when she started practicing and she's become a world champion. So age does not, it doesn't necessarily end your career or make the career not happen. Yeah. That's fantastic. Gotcha. And thanks so much for doing it. Appreciate you all hanging out with us. We are excited for future debates. We're talking to Ryan Dawson and JF about a possible debate and then tonight, Tom Jump and Ask Yourself will clash. So thanks so much. And keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. Everybody take care. Oh, sh.