 We are recording now. Erica, is it saying it's recording correct on your screen? I don't see. Like a red button circle around it. Yeah, I see that, but I don't know if I can tell from my screen. OK. I might be as well. I see you recording. Awesome, thank you. Thank you. Yes, we're all on board. Also, as a reminder for everyone, if you could please, for those that have abbreviations on their name, could you put in the chat your first and last name so we can be able to take attendance and be able to put you on the list server? So we appreciate you being able to do so. And we're going to get started. So thank you, everyone, for joining to another Hyperledger Health Care Special Interest Group General Meeting. My name is Mike McCoy. I'm the chair of the group here. And today we have a very special guest from the College of St. Gitz over in India that are going to presenting on their medical chain EHR solution. It'll be great for all of us to get insights on and to understand more deeper of what they were able to do. Now, with any Hyperledger General Meeting, we must go over the general, sorry, the antitrust policy within the Linux Foundation. Just so you know, all Linux Foundation meetings involve participation with many industry competitors. Do not disclose anything that you would not want to be disclosed into public, into the public IR, public forum, as well as anything that would be compromising to you, your business, or your internal strategies of your representative of companies, pretty much just don't share anything you wouldn't want to be public. And so thank you, everyone, for being aware of that. Now we would like to go into introductions a little bit before we go into the main presentation. So I'm the new Hyperledger Special Interest Group chair. I started, I guess, officially two weeks ago, which is pretty cool. And we've had some internal conversations with myself and our vice chair, Erika Bierbauer, on how we could better utilize the group in the future. And yeah, I'd love for anyone that's new to the group. I see a couple new people that may be with us today. We could start with, obviously, we'll get to the St. Gitt's group that's new as well. But Remo, I might not be as aware of you. Please, if you could introduce yourself to the group. And it also brings you to learn more. OK, sir, am I audible? Say that again. I'm sorry? Am I audible? Yeah, you're all we can hear you. OK, my name is Remo Vinay. I'm a finalist, student of St. Gitt's College of Engineering. My first came to know about blockchain technology when it was time to start our idea project. The idea of thinking was more towards medical industry because we thought we had to do something that was for society. That's when our faculty introduced us as the blockchain technology. And my friends and I team leader, that's Sajid Hassa, introduced us into the technology. And we are eager to learn more about it. And so we are here in this presentation. We hope to learn more towards coming days. That's awesome. Thank you very much for joining us. And we have Kent's pretty regular. Jim, you're pretty regular as well, correct? Yeah, I'm in and out. And honestly, I'm not here all the time. I don't directly work in health care at this point. I've done health care systems in the past. But the interest was around a lot of the overlapping technology. So I was coming from the automotive space, engineering a lot of solutions and supply chain and automotive. And we had exactly 95% of the exact same issues in health care when I compared them with Stephen Elliott. And so as a result, it made sense to in a sense, listen and learn about a lot of the things going on in the health care because they do apply in a broader context. And certainly I've always had an interest on data integrity and data quality and all that. And so there's a lot in the health care space, particularly both on data management as well as blockchain, it makes sense here. So it's a good group to participate in. Thanks. It's awesome. Thank you very much for sharing. We also have Prashant. I might not be as familiar with you, but are you new to the group? Yes. Thank you for welcoming me. I'm Prashant Khambeger. I represent Harbinger Systems and Harbinger Systems does outsource software development for other companies. And one of my customers is into health care and uses hyper major software. So we have entire engineering in Harbinger for that product. And specifically the product is about patient ownership of their health records so that they can go for a second opinion or they can possibly monetize the data by giving it to pharmaceutical and other research companies. And by the way, Prashant, I apologize. All I saw was Prashant with a K. I didn't see your actual last name, so I apologize. I'm very much aware Prashant. He's a great individual here in the Philadelphia blockchain region that I'm a part of. And so thank you for joining us today. I apologize on that. Thank you. Sorry about that. David, I might not be as aware of you. David Elmitz. Hey there, yeah. I am new here. I don't currently work in healthcare. I work in financial services, but I'm looking to transition into health tech. So I wanted to learn more about some of the different challenges in health tech and some of the potential solutions that are being explored. Awesome, thank you very much. Oliver, I'm not familiar with you as well. So if you could give an intro or maybe you've been here often. Sorry, I was just trying to find the unmute. Yeah, hi. No, I don't really come in, I bounce. I think I've been to a couple of meetings before. I actually do work in healthcare and I used to do a lot of EHR. So I'm curious what's going on here. But we didn't touch blockchain, so. No worries, it's all part of the ecosystem. It's only one technology to cover it all. And then Elise has been here before in Deira. Do you want to give an intro to people in the group? Hi, good morning, this is Indira Mysore. I have been to this meeting before. This is not my first time, but my career predominantly has been in global IT space and five continents and in global corporations and aerospace manufacturing and technology and consulting and oil and gas. And my recent position was with healthcare, biotech pharma, medical diagnostics, Huffmela Roche, Swiss healthcare company and I've been in the blockchain space for the last two years, kind of learning and coming up to speed and interested and have been part of some non-profits, making contributions and working towards, especially some COVID credentials, governance framework as well as ethical framework for blockchain and healthcare space. I'm recently honored to join Consensus Health as one of the board of advisors. I'm glad to be part of this group. Awesome, thank you very much for that. And without further ado, I'd like to introduce our guest speakers and the team at St. Gitz. So please let's start with Sajith and anyone else that's a part of the team. And I'll encourage you all to share your screen for the presentation that you have for us today. And thank you very much for taking the time to entertain us and educate us on this global solution. So please, I'll take it away. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much. So I guess I'll share my screen. So can you guys see my presentation screen? We can see your screen. Yeah, okay, good. So these are my group mates, Regis Pinayel. Myself, Sajith Assa. And my team members are Sajith Pinayel, Rima Binayel and Rina and Philippe. So we represent St. Gitz College of Engineering. So from the start of us, so we'll start from the source, like where did we get the idea for doing this project? So I guess my friends, Sajith will be starting over here. So over to Sajith. Hello. Yeah, we can hear you. Okay, so for I would like to thank the high college community for giving us a opportunity to present our idea for them. Mekchi, that was our final project and we had implemented a dominant feature of our idea. And currently we are working to retain our architecture and to add some more additional functionalities to our idea. So first of all, I would like to pitch our idea by saying how we converge to this idea. When we heard about the final project, first of all, we started finding out or figuring out the real-life problems that we encountered day by day. On that team, one of the castings, the real-life incident, Casino for one of our group made, and he was admitted in a reputable hospital here. And he was admitted to some mild PEO, but due to overdose of medicine, he has been hospitalized when his condition become worse. The parents raised always against the community, but actually, yeah. Hey, Sruji, just a second, just a second, Sruji. Your audio is a little bit choppy and you sound a little echoey and a little far away. Is there any way you can get closer to a mic or your computer so we could hear you a little bit clearer? So it's not actually, it's a phone and a little bit dumpling for the microphone so that am I clear now? It's about the same, but we can continue. Thank you. Okay, yeah. There was due to some stress training and auto prescription by the doctor as I said, the body got to ICU, but by God's grace, his condition become okay and the expenses were taken by the hospital and likewise the problem was solved. But on that time, we understood we could figure out something happening in this medical field. So some, actually, we don't have any access to our medical data, that was the first thought that came to our mind. We are approaching the hospital, the prescriptions were given, but actually, we don't know where these prescriptions or how these prescriptions are stored or who are manipulating this access to that. Likewise, we are actually completely blind towards our medical data. We care for all of our other data like social media and data center, but in our current system, we actually don't care how much important our medical data is. Keep knowing our medical condition, even anyone can track us and let us through this. So actually, in our system, there is no proper EHR system. Each hospital stores EHR according to their perspective. So there is no proper EHR system. Also, the problem occurs in the field of interoperability. What I mean is that when we are consulting a doctor or a high specialist in a region and we are migrating to another region, we are consulting another high specialist. Actually, here we are not getting a proper or a continuous checkup. They are adopted according to their protocol and when we are migrating to another region, we are treated by that doctor. So what I mean is that there is no medical backup. We have, in WhatsApp, we have a chat backup handle. Like this, we don't have a backup for our medical data. That much important data, we don't have a backup and we don't have a control over that. So we understood that the problem is the centralization of that data to the hospital. So next to our thought process was how we can take back this control to patients because our data means that should be in our hand. So how we can take back that control to our hand? On that team, the blockchain club goes to our college and faculty members with the help of them, we came to know about the technology blockchain actually. And we are starting this. We have zero knowledge on blockchain and we started our projects. So from them, we understood what blockchain and what are the default features that blockchain offering us. And we understood that that's the right technology, the right technology that should be and that is the correct technology which can be used to solve the problems we have identified. So like this, we started our project and this project might change happen. So then we go through different phases. We first of all created our architecture that was a little bigger than we could show the architecture. Then with the help of our blockchain economy and all, we go through our project. And finally, we presented, as I said, we presented the dominant feature of our project in front of the college faculties. So the architecture, the solution that we designed or should be in the coming talk, we will discuss about it. I welcome my friend, hello, Rimo to explain about the solution that we found out for these problems. The main problems that we identified was the implementation of the data and the probability of that and how it can be solved with blockchain with our own architecture. So I remove, can you explain the solution of our project? Okay. Okay, so as my teammate explained, we came to the conclusion that the main challenges faced were data security and its interoperability. We are aware that all the medical institutions here has their own centralized EHR system, EHR meaning electronic health record. And the control of the system goes solely to the institution itself. At least the patient has no authority or whatsoever. So for that, we propose to decentralize all the currently centralized EHR system so that there exists only one true version of an individual's electronic health record in a unique secure network. Now consider a case where a patient comes under a circumstance which caused him to consult another doctor in another hospital and the record for that individual is created at that hospital also. So rather than having multiple copies of a patient's EHR, we thought of having a network which creates and stores a single record for an individual which provides our most security and integrity to the data. So our aim was to place the patient at the center of the system where he or she is the one that has control over their own EHR, that is whether which medical portion can access the data and for how long. Access can be granted and reviewed as per the patient's convenience. So we wanted a system which was secure, camper-proof and does not solely belong to a single entity and that is where we saw it to implement. That is where we saw that blockchain technology fits all the required features for a network we aim to implement. So material is a combination of the cutting edge blockchain protocol technology, distributed storage, coupled with open source framework that hope to set a standard in the globally compliant medical record keeping. We use a third party distributed storage system for storing the medical record and we store the hash pointer to these medical records in our network thus adding an additional layer of security. Finally, by addressing the control of these records to individual itself, the medical records will not be retrieved in isolation and in inaccessible silos. And the patient can provide access to any authorized healthcare professional ensuring the integrity of the data. Okay, for the execution, we created a web app that the doctor could create an eNHR for the individual and also access the records that was authorized to them by the patients. And we used a mobile application for the patient where he or she could grant or revoke access to a specific doctor using their operating when and as he's needed. We use psychological composite tool to initially implement our network but currently we are trying to do it in high-grader fabric as high-grader compositor has been disabled in the last year. Yes, my teammate Renu will provide the details on the structure and overall workflow of the project. Hello. Hello, can you hear me? We can hear you, just fine. Okay, so the technology we use here is the blockchain. So the blockchain has no central authority which make it as a democratized system. Since it is a shared and immutable ledger, the information in it is open for everyone to see. But here we use a permissioned blockchain for the security of patient data. In permissioned blockchain, only the participant with the permission can access the blockchain and view the data. So next is the structure of machine. So in this structure, we have mainly two parts. That is doctor and patient. The patient and doctor has their own ID. So before consulting a doctor, we give access to the doctor's ID using the EHR ID. So the doctors can view the EHR. So in our system, the patient has the control over the EHR. Each patient has their own EHR. So the patient can use this EHR in the hospital that are connected to our network. The access to the EHR is done by the patient itself. That is, the patient has the control to revoke and grant access to the EHR. So mainly we have a web app and mobile app. We are giving the access through the mobile app and through the web app, we can view and edit EHR. When we are allowing, when we are allowing the access, a transaction is happening there. So in this transaction, the asset is EHR. We have a Rust API system which will connect the frontend and hyperledger blockchain network. So next is the basic functioning. So there are mainly four steps in basic functioning. The first one is data generation. Here, the data is generated. So the data can be generated from doctors, doctors, scan reports, et cetera. The next step is storage of network. The generated data is encrypted and given an ID. And this is stored on the patient's blockchain. And the third step is data access queries. Here, the data is requested. So the ID on the blockchain is used to retrieve the encrypted data. So the last and final step is decryption and data display. The data in the decrypted and displayed on the 11th device. Here, the device is web app. Through the web app, we can view and edit EHR. Next, next I call my teammate Sajith S.R. too. Hello, am I audible now? We can hear you. Hello. Okay, fine, cool. So my friends just gave just an intro about actually what is happening in the network. So actually, when we were starting the project, we were pretty much new to the system because we didn't have any prior exposure to blockchain network or hyperledger. So we just started from zero. We were totally blind. We didn't know what to do. We just had an idea about blockchain because we had some training program in our college. And our college actually supports blockchain. So that's how we came to know about this hyperledger of fabric, blockchain and all. So just with some theoretical knowledge about blockchain, we started the project. So with that knowledge, we just created this basic architectural system. So this is the data for the diagram of our project. So what actually happened is basically there are four functions. The first one is data generation. So there the hospital will be creating the record data for the patient and it will be stored in a secure storage. So then the pointer to that storage will be stored in the ledger itself. So that's how the system works. So whenever we are querying for data, then with the consensus, we can query the data. We can only view the data when the patient is giving proper permission. So whenever querying is done, what we actually do is we just go to the storage and we'll just collect the data and we'll convey the hash that's on the ledger and the data that we got from the stored, actually the hash of the data that we got from the stored ledger. So we'll convey the hash and if the hash is the same, so then it will be matched and the data will be passed to the verifier to the requester. So even if the data is not matching or like if the permission is not given, then the data will be not shown to the requester. So we actually, like I said, we are just now currently under the development. We didn't know any about hypolygia or hypolygia fabric. We are just in the beginning steps because actually we came to know a lot of, we came to know a lot about hypolygia during these couple of months because we had a lot of meetings with eminent personalities in hypolygia fabric. So we just got a basic knowledge about how to just create architecture and all. So that's, we are doing it using hypolygia fabric. One of our versions, we built a demo version. We chose on a hypolygia composer but as you are not currently hypolygia composer is not supported now. So actually we have to switch it over from a composer to native fabric. We thought about this because we had an interest in taking a project to the next level. So actually we started it just like a college level project. We just finish it, wrap it up by doing something and show it to the, our panel, judging panel. But when we were dealing with our project a lot more, we just, we saw some potential in the system. So when, if it is implemented, then we can solve a lot of problems in society because actually people don't have any idea about what is happening with the medical data, like what is actually happening, where are these data going. So that's kind of stuff we can, we can eliminate that sort of things. So that's why we are now switching over to a native fabric and what we're actually planning to do it, we are planning to create a channel system using this fabric. So organizations within the network can be like independent channels with each, like, in our case, like each hospital will be like an independent organization and they'll be having a separate ledger for them. So on the medical, since the medical data is usually big, so we'll be not have directly saving the data into the ledger, but we'll be saving the data in a third party distributed storage. And the data is kept in the, kept like that and the address, only the address to the data will be stored in the ledger. So that is how we are going to, we are planning to develop it when we are building it in high-plagiar fabric and we are currently under development. So next thing is about, so this is the third party storage system that we're planning to use, that is IPFS. So I mainly used to, it's a distributed storage system. So we are currently using IPFS, planning to use IPFS in our system. So and the next thing is what we are actually planning to do is give an encryption, so that we could provide data integrity as well. So when a patient is, sorry, excuse me. So when a patient is given access, then the record will be decrypted with the owner's private key. And then the symmetry key will be encrypted with the public key using an RSE algorithm. So when the access is removed, what happens is that the symmetry key is decrypted with the private key of owner of the health record. And then again, the HR is decrypted using the symmetry key. So after this, the record goes re-encryption. And so that's how we are planning to do an encryption mechanism and all these are currently under development because as I said, we don't have any experience in this. So we are actually planning on this. So when we'll get more resources, we'll be able to finish it in our time. So like this was the product that we have built for showing a demo. So this was built in Hyperledge Composer. Currently it won't work because Composer has stopped the support for Composer. So actually, we are not able to show this demo. This was actually taken while we were doing it in college. So this was just taken for showing to the judges. So this was the, the left side, you can see the app which we created. This will be given with the hospitals. The right side, you can see a mobile app. So that will be with the patient. So whenever a patient has to give an access, you can use a mobile app and provide the doctor ID. The IDs for the doctor, the doctor IDs will be like public. So using that ID, we can give the access. So when the access happened, just like I said, we'll be retrieving the data from the storage and we'll check the hashes and if they match and if the permission is given, the data will be shown. And if any of this is not matching, then it will be revoked. So data will not be shown. So that's what we have planned so far. And currently, when we did some more research, actually, we got this survey reports from internet. So we thought actually, high-plagia projects have given a lot of importance now. So also in the healthcare sector, high-plagia projects are given a lot of more importance. And also in our country also, blockchain projects are now supported a lot. So actually I thought if we take this project to the next level, we could do so much more. So this is another update that we are planning for our system, like insurance fraud detection. So since the patient has an EHR system with them and he has all the history of what actually happened with this medical data. So there's an incident happening newly. Like a patient just claimed for his medical insurance and this insurance company just denied it totally. They said there's no proper evidence so we cannot grant you the insurance. And as a result, he didn't get that sort of a good medical care because of this problem. And he didn't have that much money. So that paved the way for his death because he didn't get that good amount for a good health treatment. So for that case, then we thought actually, if we have a system like this, so a patient can easily drag what happened actually with this medical data. So he could approach a court. If an insurance company denies him the medical claim, he could easily approach a court and he can claim his, or he could file a petition, or he could claim that my medical data is proper by showing us our record and the company has denied my medical claim. So that he will be having a probe within himself. So that's one of the modifications that we thought we could make in this system. And another one is actually that's, we didn't know how it will work or not. We just written some of the papers like we could integrate machine learning like that's machine learning with the blockchain also. So that's purely, we don't have a proper idea about that. We just have a vague idea. So how to integrate machine learning with this blockchain technology. So what we are actually planning is if we are successful in integrating machine learning with our technology, we could easily predict the medicine for a person like we could predict the disease like if we analyze the record structure like what treatment he has undergone or what all medicines he has been prescribed. So if we analyze that sort of data, we'll get like we could predict the disease he will be having like after two, three years or like after five years. Or we could easily predict what condition he will be going to like that sort of things. So that's purely, we don't know how much we could be successful in that. So that's all from our part. Actually it's not, I know almost everyone if you had a basic idea for a project. We also are currently in developing phase. So most of the things that we are not trying to implement is not in our hands because we don't have that much exposure in this technology. So what we are actually planning to do is we are trying to get more into this technology so that we could learn so much more so that we can use that kind of resources that we get from like communicating with this community so that we could get more resources and we could put more of our efforts into our project also. And thank you so much for Hyperledger for giving us this opportunity to present our project here. I hope we'll be getting more resources from you guys so that we could develop our project a lot more because right now we are just in the basic steps. We have to go so much far and it will be very nice if our team could get a little more resources from you guys so that we could develop our project so much more. So thank you so much. Sajeev, thank you very much for the detailed presentation here. If someone were to want to get in contact with you to help out as a resource to build on this, what is the best way to reach you at? We could pass our contact information so that we can get that kind of resources because actually what we are lacking is that we don't have that much technical knowledge in the technical knowledge about this fabric technology like this channeling system that sort of things. We don't have that much technical knowledge. So it will be even nice if experts that who are currently working on this kind of medical systems connected with the blockchain. So if we could get that kind of resource it will be more helpful for us. Absolutely. If you want, feel free to put down that contact information in the chat here so people can be able to access it. It will also be added to the Wiki later on for the, I guess you wanna say show notes as well. Now if you don't mind, I would love to leave the next 20 minutes or 24 minutes or so for questions. And I'll go to questions in the chat first then we'll make it more of an open forums and get to those questions. So first question was by Indira. Is there a consortium backing the solution? Who are the sponsors in the healthcare industry if that is applicable? Sajith, if you or anyone from the team could be able to answer that. Also, you can stop sharing your screen at the moment unless there's a slide we want to reference to later on. Sajith, can you hear me? Anyone else from the St. Gid's team? Is anyone available? Can you hear me to answer the question? Just reinforcing to you, we can hear you. Thank you. There are voices out here. I'm not alone. Actually there is currently the system is generator as a college project. There is no sponsored still available. Awesome. Thank you very much for those details. Next up we have from Indira again. Are you targeting the solution for India solely? What are the local regulatory impacts from this model? Indira actually, we are targeting the developing economies especially in India because we want to reimagine the entire healthcare industry especially in India. Coming to the regulators, for enabling standardized and secure health information, we need a kind of support from the adjacent health industries. Like we need support from insurance and pharma and that have to be done before going for any regulation. So since this is actually our academic project, we are right now, we are not focusing on that and after that we are planning to integrate all those stuffs. Awesome. Makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe you've gone down this road a little bit or not but another question from Indira was, how do you manage medical images, storage, access, retrieval, security and processing? Are these things that you and the team have considered yet in evaluating how this would be used in industry? Actually, they are planning to incorporate the IPFS system because we know that we can't store that much of heavy amount of data inside the ledger. So they are planning to store this type of images inside the IPFS system and store the corresponding hash inside the blockchain. Indira, any follow-ups to that question that may help your understanding? Well, thank you. I think I understand now the context and the scope and background. Thank you. Awesome. Cool. I gotta stop saying awesome. It's too repetitive. Let's go with Jim Mason had another question for us. He asked how the project is funded. It's an academic project we understood so that that question was answered. He asked then, how is the data shared across the channel system? And if so, why and how that may compare to versus a private data system that may not use a blockchain? Have you guys evaluated that? Actually, yeah, private, I'll just chime in there, but private data is a feature of fabric and blockchain. So when you wanna, in a sense, share data, you could, and still provide data privacy, if you will, you can share, in a sense, from a blockchain perspective, you can use channels as they proposed, but channels are physically separate in a sense, conceptually, blockchains, if you will. So channel one doesn't normally have access to anything in channel two directly at all, where if you use the private data feature, you can mix and match both sharing data from the blockchain, so to speak, as well as making data private on a channel. It's a different feature of fabric, if you will. And I'm just asking why they're separating channels, using channel separation for data privacy was the concept they had. Fajit, are you there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I got disconnected, I'm really sorry. And I see a question, what is the size of a typical health record? What is the maximum size of one of the year? No, no, no, the question is, no, no, no, the question is, how is data shared across the channel system? Yeah, that's a, actually right now, as I have said, we are currently switching over to fabric. So we don't have actually a clear idea about this implementation of channeling system. What we have actually is just a theoretical knowledge. So how do we do this and how do we do that? So that's why when I was concluding, I just asked a way I need more resources. I just presented because if I could get more help so that I could just implement this, what I have in my mind, to just attest it in our network so that I could see how will it work or what will be its issues and all. So I don't have a detailed knowledge about the channel system and all. So, but my understanding was that, you know, these folks are only storing hashes on the chain and the actual data is put forward on IPFS. Yeah, yeah, we have. So in terms of sharing data and committing it to a private report, it probably might not be applicable. Yeah, yeah, I got it. Because actually currently we are now, when we use IPFS, even then we are conducting a third party so the data is with them. So again, yeah, that might not be a good issue, but IPFS is like a, just like what we, the data is hashed inside IPFS. So what we, the data store is like encrypted in IPFS. So I guess, why did we choose, if you ask why did we choose IPFS that I would say that the data is encrypted. So we thought it would be a more safe thing like we got a good off of chain storage system which has an encrypted data store technology. So that way we chose IPFS. Dr. Holt, that was Jonathan Holt that asked that question. Do you want to elaborate more on the question you mentioned but regarding the IPFS that may help you out with understanding as well? Yeah, so I'm a big fan of IPFS. I'm a contributor, a core contributor, but I'm also have deep reservations about using it for storage of healthcare data even if it's encrypted because any encryption has a lifespan. So I think it's, how are you gonna handle the control of that, those hashes or the dissemination when the other word for IPFS is the distributed permanent web. Okay, so just actually we just, right in the talks about IPFS and what we actually just find out from it, like we had some packages from APFS like that from IPFS. So what we actually did is when we were building a pit in Composer, we just did an API call and we just shared my file there. So I had the idea to get a hash, I returned a hash and I was just storing the hash inside my chain in the ledger. And whenever, when data querying is accessed then this hash will be taken out and again, that will be sent to IPFS using an API and then I'll be getting the data. So if you ask what is actually happening inside and actually I don't have that kind of technical knowledge in that because like I said, we just started building on this project and so we are actually lacking a lot of technical knowledge in that. And that's what it's about. That's what the healthcare special interest groups about is learning from each other and helping to deepen understanding. Another question we have coming up from Jim was how will you support SSI within the fabric solution? And SSI, I think you're mentioning single sign on, is that correct Jim? No, that's self sovereign identity. So a lot of applications but especially healthcare more than anything else probably in a sense my patient data and all that has to be secure but also under my control. So the whole concept of healthcare particularly in the future is all based on what I call my control of my information and consent management. So that's all. And so current systems don't really do that well even if they do do it to some degree but you have newer systems that support that level of identity management and control. The question is fabric doesn't have that today in it's not part of fabric and it's certainly not part of IPFS. So how do you in a sense provide personal identity information protection, data correlation issues and all those kinds of things. There's a million issues in what I call identity access management and control but fabric has it I'll quote the fabric system doesn't fully address that I should say. If you become an expert in fabric you're not gonna fully address those issues from a healthcare context. So have you given any thought to that? Shah, I think it's likely they are not familiar with Hyperledger Indy and Hyperledger Harris. And probably I would question whether fabric is a good platform of choice anyway. Even if you're storing encrypted data on IPFS you know, one solution is we store a patient stores their data locally and share it as required by someone else on the network using provisions like Hyperledger Indy and Hyperledger Harris. It'll be a lot more secure system and it will also be a very scalable system. It's very valid feedback. I wanted another fan of the Indy Aries Ursa for control and access management as well. Something to definitely think of and dive deeper on as you all are evaluating this solution. Another question we had also we have a fan or not a fan but someone who wants to help out is Mahool Shah. So at some point if you guys could in the chat here send in or share any contact information so Mahool may be able to again touch with you. That would be wonderful. But another question is for when you were evaluating using fabric here, was there any particular size of a typical health record you were evaluating or looking to use? Did you in your study were you able to evaluate the maximum size of one record that could be used here? And this was from Prashant. No, no sir. Actually we didn't have that much of a research there. Actually what we actually did was we just created some like the data that we were having was like we just tested with dummy data. Like we just entered some prescription and that sort of but in real life the data will be so much bigger. As far as like as I said we just started like the college level project. So actually a note of technical details was not necessary there. So like we didn't go into that and that much part but when we are doing the project like so at some time we just when we were reading some books we just came to know that when the sizing raises we cannot store the data in blockchain because whenever since this record data is again appended and appended for a patient so the data will be becoming so huge. So that when we just at that point we just switched it to like IPFS and we didn't just check it on how much data actually we can use it on fabric. Awesome, thank you. The next question we had comes from was Jim's comment on how can you require strong identity management control? I think we hit that already because I asked sort of a very good that earlier so they did address that, thanks. Awesome, cool. And Deer also offered to help out with the project as well so maybe you guys have a couple advisors that can help out for this overall solution. Brian if you wanna state this statement you weave an open form now so if you wanna state this then we'll leave it for open questions. That's a lot. First off I wanna thank very much the folks from St. Kitts University it's not easy to present from the other side of the planet where it's Friday night there so thank you very much for appearing and I also wanna appreciate thank you to the working group here for being supportive. A lot of folks are climbing the learning curve on how to use these technologies starting at different points and different times and that sort of thing and so a lot of this is familiar territory for a lot of folks but it's important for us to really help build kind of a global understanding of how best to use these technologies for thorny domains like healthcare and data privacy and just wanted to observe India has a different starting point than many of us when it comes to digital identity the very successful Aadhar system which is given digital identity to 1.3 billion people in the country has been key to a lot of social services a lot of human rights, positive types of things but also raised a lot of global and even local concerns around its use in commerce especially since someone's Aadhar number is kind of like your social security number it's something that the more public it becomes the more traceable you become so lots of folks trying to fix some of these issues but India hasn't quite crossed the gap to self sovereign identity in fact one could say Aadhar has even inspired a lot of the research and movement towards user centric or self sovereign identity so it's an interesting frame to look at some of this stuff in and so I just wanted to share that observation and again thank you everyone. Always insightful Brian, thank you very much. Now could we have an open forum for questions for anyone that speak freely right now for any questions you have for the St. Kitt's team and their study. Dr. Holt you had a question did you just raise your hand? Yeah I was kind of curious and just to pivot off of Brian's comment was in the Aadhar system and I'm curious like either that your team the team's perspective on the Aadhar system and the role of the self sovereign digital identity and the combination of both of those which is that the Aadhar system really is like identity for over a billion people and I think it is like federated identity but the role of combining those into both a verification process that like then leverages self sovereign identity where actually you can anchor it into the Aadhar system and I was curious people's thoughts on that. That could be an open question to anyone familiar with Aadhar as well. Hi this is Kent. So we've been making different types of platforms on sawtooth and fabric regarding a very similar system to the presentation today. And in the near future- And you say sorry Kent for everyone's background you say we, what was- I'm sorry I've been helping the healthcare SIG patient subgroup and also now with the payer subgroup with Ravish. So we've been making similar systems to the presentation today regarding the SSI front end. What we've been doing instead of hard coding the patient's name and private details onto the chain code onto the fabric smart contract we've given them a random number and then we're going to use an SSI front end in the near future so that we can match the credentials to the chain code but not having to hard code them for privacy. Yeah I suppose that's more of like a random number association and I think my point is like for instance I'm a physician and I have an MPI number a national provider I identify number here in the United States and I'm curious like very similar to the Aadhar system which is like more sort of a given identity or it's also including biometrics and if you're not familiar in the United States most states require physicians to get fingerprinted than doing a background check and I'm just curious like in the self-sovereign digital identity world to claim either my national provider identity and associate it with me the self-sovereign individual or similarly in the Aadhar system of claiming my Aadhar national provider and a national given identity is like what's the workflows? Is that going to be like the Aadhar system being the issuer in this case or is there a cryptographic way of attesting to this I own this identity in either the Aadhar system or the MPI database? Hi, this is Ravish just to quickly answer that question in the Aadhar case, it is, I mean you don't claim I mean obviously I mean it is provided to you once issued that's how you get associated with that and I mean it is not something you can claim like for example a number of NRIs and I'm speaking from my personal experience sitting here I can not claim that whatsoever it's not a claimable rather issued identity it's just like SSN I mean you go you provide the documents you prove that you are who you are and you get an identity issue similar risks as Brian was talking about earlier exists with the Aadhar identity as well. Yeah I suppose it's also more of a process and as I sort of harp on is that identity is a process of using identifiers to correlate attributes about you including your biometrics and I guess that really is in the Aadhar system very much a process of identity of like verifying through biometrics names, identifiers and like whatever iris scans that actually like this is you and that's like I guess the key distinction and I'm pondering this now with like the use of biometrics including fingerprints for position identity for instance is that process of it's very much a process of identity not a given identity. Exactly and I mean just to contrast with the if you look at the credit history here right I mean you go to Equifax Experian and all that's a claim you claim your credit history right I mean you will answer a bunch of questions that have happened in the past as transactions that have been recorded in Aadhar case I mean there's a lot to be digitized yet in India and it's not that straightforward that you can go and claim it I mean it cannot be self-claimed it's to be issued. Gotcha, okay great thank you. All right well those are very stimulating questions to me Aras and it's good to have a global scope on that is I'm based here in the United States and I'm not aware of the issuing and the ability for someone to be able to attest their own identity as well so that's very good information for me. Any closing comments from the SyncGits team on any of this, any feedback, any anything else you would like the group to know about your project and what you're trying to accomplish? Mike this is Ravish and I just wanted to put a quick word regarding what Kent was talking about. We have been working on a pharmacy management and involved some similar issues but more on from pharmacy standpoint and the workflow. We would love to come back in another, I would say not the next meeting but the following meeting if you wanna put us on the list with kind of a demo for the POC that we have been working on. And I'm being ambitious. We have been moving, we have been making progress but I think that will help us get through some of the issues from a strange perspective and get to a presentation. I would say not the next meeting but the following meeting with the working demo. So just wanted to- So in close, no, that's a good point. So in close, I'm going to actually probably cancel the next meeting as the next meeting would fall on the Friday of Labor Day in the United States. And I feel a lot of people that may be based here may not, may be off for holiday or whatever have you. So and in that time, I'm going to send more detailed surveys. I know I mentioned this before but I want to send more detailed surveys as to what times and preferences this group will want in order to meet for this session as well as I'll coordinate with David Boswell who's the Linux Foundation Community Lead to find a valuable time that everyone can be able to join as well. But yes, they're looking for the, not this two Fridays from now but two weeks after that we could definitely have you present into the group and you and I can talk offline about those details as well. Absolutely. So thank you everyone for joining today. Thank you for the St. Gitt's team for your presentation and for peeking our interests and all the beneficial questions from the group. That concludes this week's meeting. If you have any questions, feel free to email me, my emails associated to the Wiki and another great fantastic presentation today. Look forward to seeing you guys all soon and be on the lookout for the surveys I'll be sending. I would love everyone's participation that will help us out a lot.