 Good morning everybody. Welcome to our last class. Good to see, to see you. Yeah, I was just looking at figuring out. I think there are very few people today. Anyway, alright, so welcome to our last class of Christian counseling. Welcome to our e-learning students as well. This is the last class for this course. Just before we start off, a quick reminder for all the students, both the online students as well as the e-learning students to complete your assessments by the end of this week. And for the e-learning students, your certificates will be available on 2nd May after you've completed all the requirements of the course. And for us online students, for your completion of the course, you would require to complete both the assessments and that's your requirement to be able to complete the assessments. Okay, so we'll dive right in because I think we have quite a bit of things to cover and hopefully people will start coming in. So we're going to be, till last week we did look at different kinds of issues and particular concerns that comes up within counseling. And we dealt with all of that, a couple of different aspects or different situations that people generally face and how does one minister through counseling in those areas. Today our last session is on ethical considerations, the ethics and boundaries that we need to cover especially and be aware of while in counseling. Like any profession that is around that people are involved in, there is a certain code or certain principles that keeps the workers of that profession binding to it. So certain principles or certain rules that are a common set of values or certain standards or beliefs that you have to be binding to in order to move ahead with your profession. So similarly, even in the case of counseling, when you're looking at both secular as well as Christian counseling, there is a certain code of ethics that we need to follow. And this material has been taken or it is drawn from the AACC code of ethics, which is the American associations of Christian counselors, their code of ethics, and it has been drawn from there. So there is a backing. So it is, you know, it's actually also documented in the, one of the journals called the British Association for Counseling and Psychotherapy. So these are the code of ethics that we would like to incorporate. So we've drawn it from these sources. And it is necessary that we understand these ethics, these standards. However, you know, you will come to see what which of these ethics are really binding for someone who is in a pastoral counseling role as well. And we'll quickly, we'll look at that at the end, but it's, it's important for us to know that. Okay, so just give me a minute and I will quickly put up my slideshow. Okay. All right. All right. So let's, let's look at a couple of maybe certain, certain definitions as we, as we go forward. So when we look at the word ethics or when we're looking at professional ethics, they are certain principles or certain standards that govern the conduct of the person. When you look at the word ethics in itself with standards that govern the conduct of a person who is operating within a specific profession. And these are principles that actually specify what is good for the profession, what is not right or acceptable for the profession. It is also gives a good clarification. Why are ethics needed is because it gives a clarification of what should be done, what should be done should not be done or what is right and what is wrong. Or how do, how are some of these standards and principles applied even in a profession. So just like we, we see it in every profession, we also see it in the profession in, in counseling also because counseling at large is, is a skilled profession. It's something that you build skills and techniques. And so there are certain things that, that, that keep you binding in that, in the framework of, of the profession. So let's look at why do we, why do we need to have these, these code of ethics. So there is a lot of evidence of, you know, unprofessional or incompetent practices, even that rises among Christian counselors, and there can also be increasing complaints of a counseling and the counselors, the dynamics that happen with it. So this code, why is there a code necessary because it really outlines a certain foundation of preferred values and agreeable behavior, professional behavior upon which the counselors can really shape how they do their work, and also their identity as a counselor. So it defines principles where practice, where, where a diversity of practices acknowledged and encouraged, and also it includes certain limits beyond which, which practice deviance is not really permitted or not really tolerated. So this, or the code of ethics, it gives you a certain ethical framework, you know, it's like a, it gives you a boundary by which you work so that you assure that the people you're caring for has been taken care of in absolute dignity and care and they receive the best kind of services. So the code of ethics is a common set of beliefs and values. There are a set of standards of care and behavior. It also offers a sense of reassurance to those who may be using the service that there is a certain thing that is binding people who are using the service understand the boundaries of it. That is, it also reflects that counseling is the profession and it's something that is seriously taken. So that's a place where you build on certain skills, you build on certain techniques, you understand what the word of God says. So it is also looking at it as it's a serious business. It's not something that you, you take lightly. It also, when there is a code of ethics, it also raises the quality of service because you are, like we said, binding on some of those principles. And it is also a place where there are complaints, there are complaint procedures that can go back. So someone is, you know, is unhappy or something has gone wrong. There is some, there is a place that you can actually bring back your concerns and redress in like a grievance where you can address some of those situations and those issues. Okay. So what is the mission of the code here in itself is, so as a Christian counselor, what are we called to do? We're called to really uphold the God-given worth and the dignity of a person, of every human being or every person that we come in contact with. So we know that we are God's creation and because we are God's creation, we are due all rights and respect and ordered logic that the fact, that the very fact that you know you are a creation of God. So as Christian counselors, we are to express that appropriate care towards any counseling or anyone who is inquiring of a service or anyone who is encountered to us in the course of ministry or in the course of practice, without any regard or discrimination to race, to ethnicity, to gender, to socioeconomic status, to age, to marital status, to education, occupation, denomination, belief system, values or any other political affiliation. Because we know that God's love is unconditional and so at this level of concern, it's at that level of concern that we function as a Christian counselor. So the mission of the code is to provide that ethical framework from which we assure that every person who comes to us is taken care of with absolute dignity and care and also they receive the best kind of service that is possible and that is due unto them. So just a couple of scriptures that gives us, you know, an admonition about as a Christian counselor, where does the base of these codes come from is specifically when we look back at the word where we are asked to bear one another's burdens. We are asked to have, you know, to look for opportunities where we are able to bless and do good to all people, especially to those in the household fate. So it is something that is given to all, but especially to those who are part of us. And whatever we are doing, we're doing so for the interests of others as we take on the attitude that is there in Christ Jesus. So these are specifically three scriptures that I just want to highlight that helps us to stay grounded at what our responsibilities are like. Okay. Are you able to hear me? Is everyone on the call because I've not heard any voice up until now. So I'm just checking. Yes ma'am, we can hear you clearly. Thank you Avni. All right. Okay. So what we're going to be looking at is we're going to be looking at the principles. What are the, what are the important, we're going to be looking at seven core principles. And we look that as a code of ethics too, as we, as we discuss each of them. So we have, I'm just going to quickly read them out. So the first one is compassion, the principle of compassion. The second is a principle of competence, which means how we excel in what we are doing. Then there's a principle of consent where we are called to be honest and integral to what we have promised. Confidentiality, that is a place where you're called to be trustworthy. A place of dignity where you regard others, regard others based, not based. I mean, you give them unconditional regard and it is not based on any kind of a cultural difference. It is a call to relationship that is the way that you relate to other people in the profession. And lastly, it's how you can be present within the community to offer these services. Now I'd like to, I'll go into each of this a little more in detail as we, as we move forward. So, like, like we just said this, it, it, all of this outlines that foundation of values and, and the behavior that really upholds what Christ has taught us. And as a counselor, we shape into that identity and whatever we do comes as a result of what is in scripture. Okay, so we're working for the good of the individual or the society by doing, by actually promoting their emotional health, promoting their mental health as well as there will be. And also, we honor commitments, we keep promises, we fulfill our responsibilities of trust in the professional relationship. We deal truthfully with, with people with whom we come into contact with. Okay, so let's, let's look at each one of this a little bit more in detail. So we have a understanding of this. So when we look at Christian counseling, the, the service of Christian counseling, the basic hallmark of Christian counseling is compassion and service. So as a counselor, we should proactively avoid every manner of harm or exploitation or discrimination in every matter that relates to the counseling. And what we're helping to do is to ensure safety and well-being of the counselors. So the Christian counselor is to be aware of their own psychosocial as well as spiritual influence and in your, in the, in the helping relationship. The Christian counselor needs to be aware of the dynamics, you know, sometimes there is a, you know, especially when there is a, you know, in relationships that you see where there is a person who's, who someone goes to that sometimes can be a one, one upmanship and the power dynamics that can play there can harm even counseling. So if a counselor is on an up, one upmanship role, it can bring about significant harm to the, to the others, even when there probably isn't a harmful intent. So just to ensure that you're careful of that and being absolutely compassionate and having the mind of service just like the way Christ offered himself for, for his people, for mankind, the way that he offered himself without any kind of a, in a place of being relatable as well. Okay. So what does this, this really, and even as we are saying this, I think we need to know that as Christian counselors, we strictly avoid all behaviors or suggestions of practice that harms or even the reasonably can harm counselors or their families or a social system. Okay. And some of the examples are really bought about here. So as a counselor, we do not advocate as a Christian counselor, we do not advocate or support or even assist any harmful actions of the counselors, especially those that impede human life. And you agree the protection of human life and that becomes the priority, the protection of human life becomes a top priority and the top value in a, in a professional or even a ministerial intervention. And counsellors who now for example and some of this that is that we've bought up here is abortion, separation and divorce, premarital, extra marital sexual behavior, substance abuse and other addictive behavior, homosexual, bisexual, transgender behavior, euthanasia and assisted suicide. Now, if counsellors who do or intend harm are not also to be abandoned and should continue to be served in these troubles as far as it is humanly possible. But as a counsellor, you make your stand that you do not support or assist any of this, but they are not going to be abandoned, even though they may choose a lifestyle as as may have, you know, as as any of this that's been highlighted over here. So keeping that in mind that despite showing the compassion and the service, there are certain boundaries that keep to that. Okay, we'll go to the next one, which is competence competence in Christian counseling. Now, in addition to being Christian, or a faith based counsellor, we must also uphold that commitment to excellence to a sense of professional excellence. So competence actually makes for, you know, you're actually keeping the pace when you say when you're when you're being competent, you are keeping the pace with whatever research has been done in the field. You're also aware of maybe limitations that comes by. You also avoid any kind of exaggerated claims, and you're incorporating that very accountability when you are dealing with others. There you are also aware of your own personal issues and or personal, not not issues personal limitations. There's something that you can't handle, and you make those needed and appropriate reference reference. So it is important to honor this call of being competent. And as a Christian counselor, you make do all that you can to maintain the highest standards of that competence with integrity, knowing and respecting these boundaries of competence both personally and with others. So you, so you are ensuring that you're not you're dedicated to this need to be excellent in, in how you handle and how you work through things, also keeping a mind and an understanding on knowing of how you respect those boundaries of competence as well. Okay. Now as we're looking as we continue to look, there is another aspect of this call to excellence. Okay, is that in in our practice, it's often important to maybe consult or refer to other competent colleagues or supervisors or other resources. When your own limit of counseling competence or effectiveness, you know, has has reached a certain, you know, stop. And maybe some and I'd like to probably just bring about some examples as to when that happens when is it that you may need to consult somebody or refer to someone who, who may have or refer someone who has other resources or more competent. So one is when, when you're facing issues that you have not dealt with before not experienced in handling. So you may not have, especially, you know, certain areas of lifestyle that you don't have a clear understanding that when when that happens, you know, you refer out when you don't have an expertise in that area, or when counsellors need further help outside the scope of your training of your practice and your expertise. That's another point of time that you know, you know that the person needs help and you wouldn't want to violate and give them a half big job but really help them get the best possible. Intervention as possible. Or when either counsellor or counsellors are feeling stuck in the process of counselling and are confused about what goals to pursue and maybe neither, neither party knows how to move forward. So that's again, you know, a time that you can do a referral outside or when counsellors are deteriorating or making no real gain. Even after a number of sessions, then it may be important to ensure that they are handed over to somebody else. When counsellors present an actual or imminent danger to harm themselves, for example, maybe they have severe depression, or their suicidal intent, or they may be running away or there's excessive substance abuse or there's a severe eating disorder. Any of that when you do see that there is, you know, there's some danger towards their health or to their life is when you would need to take or consult or refer to others. When counsellors, when they pose a danger to even others, when there is a danger even to others, maybe there is aggression, there's violence, there's hostility, or there are threats. And you notice that the counsellor themselves, you're seeing a marked decline in their ability to care for themselves and function, then even in their day to day affairs, then is where, you know, that they may require extra help. Or when the counsellor's probable alcohol or substance abuse or dependence requires detoxification, you know, that they are in a state that you cannot offer counselling, they probably need a medical treatment is when again you consult or you refer. Or when the counsellor's reality testing is impaired to the extent that, you know, they don't have judgment, they are not oriented, their emotions and their memories very disordered, like for example, in schizophrenia or in many episodes where there are the hearing voices, they have very significant strong, bizarre beliefs, and you begin to understand that, you know, this is, they're not in the space of reality. Or when there is a strong transference or counter-transference, like you remember the word, I think we had spoken about it in earlier, is when the counsellor begins to transfer their emotions towards the counsellor, looking at them as somebody, you know, they are reminded of somebody they know. Or counter-transference is when it happens from the counsellor to the counsellor, that there is a lot of push of emotions, push of thoughts that's coming from a more personal agenda rather than something that is professional. Or when there is a possibility of a dual relationship, now I will talk about something like a dual relationship a little earlier, when that exists. A dual relationship is when you have two roles, maybe one role is one of being a counsellor and the other role is maybe you're being a family member, or a counsellor and, you know, a colleague or an employer or employee, that is what these dual relationships are, which we will look in a little bit more in detail later. Or when the counsellor themselves ask for a referral to another counsellor is when, you know, you would ensure that you give this kind of support. So as Christian counsellors, what we also need to be careful of is the Christian counsellors, we do not counsel or advise against professional counselling or medical or psychiatric treatment or use of medicines or legal counsel or any other form of professional practice. We do not do that. That's the call, that's the ethics that we hold on to. Why? Because, you know, sometimes people do that because they believe that it is wrong to go to anyone other than a Christian, someone who has a Christian experience. Or because the provider themselves, maybe a psychiatrist or a hospital is not oriented towards Christianity, we hold that ethics or that value that we do not counsel them against such a situation. Okay. The next one is what we call as the consent in for the consent in Christian counselling or the call to integrity. Now the fundamental right of a counsellor is self-determination. If you remember, we touched upon this when we were looking at the principles of counselling. It's counselling self-determination. That is, they should be, they have the right to operate on their own. They can make informed and informed and voluntary decisions to engage in whatever process that they would like. So that is the right of a counsellor and the self-determination becomes a pillar for counsellors and for counsellors. So when you're giving the consent, when you're saying consent, it allows for the counsellor to operate in a transparent fashion and with honesty and giving the opportunity for the counsellor to make any voluntary decision that will help them in their counselling process. Okay. So as a Christian counsellor, what you're also doing is you're respecting that there is a need for informed consent regarding what all do we need this consent for regarding for the structure and the process of counselling. So often, you know, before we begin counselling, we do actually help with some kind of a structure of saying, what are we going to do? What are some of our foundational beliefs that we have? Like, you know, we have something called as a consent form where we do talk about the principles we use. What are the skills? Where do we get our skills from? What are some of the expected outcomes or results that you can see as we go ahead in these counselling relationships? So at the onset of counselling, counsellors and counsellors, it's important to discuss and agree upon some things. And some of them is one, the course of the counselling, the nature and the course of the counselling, what can be expected of the goals of the counsellor, the certain problems or risks or alternatives that can come due to counselling. Okay, or the status of the counsellor, what are the credentials of the counsellor and who all will the counsellor be talking to or will be disclosing information to, whether it's a supervisor or a team of counsellors, confidentiality and the limits of confidentiality, fees and any kind of procedures that involve finance or time limitations about time and how they can access the counsellor during emergency situations or, you know, even certain procedures that one may have, especially when there are some kind of disputes or misunderstanding. Okay, so and even as you're doing this as a Christian counsellor, you do not presume that, you know, all counsellors want or will be receptive to explicit spiritual Christian interventions and counselling, you know, that can be, we cannot presume that okay, if they know that you are a Christian counsellor, that they will completely agree to maybe receive everything that may be spiritual or an intervention that's Christian and that's why you obtain consent that honors the choice of the counselling so that they can be receptive to the practice, practice of Christian counselling and the manner in which some of this are introduced. Now, this includes what is this consent include that is prayer, so, you know, to actually take consent and that's something we do in our form, we write if you do consent, we would like to pray with you at the end of the session. Okay, or Bible reading and references or any kind of, you know, biblical music or worship or meditation or any kind of spiritual discipline formation or maybe incorporating fasting plan as a spiritual discipline or any other common spiritual practices. So that's important to keep in mind as we are looking at consent and that is important for us showing ourselves as being integral, showing ourselves to be honest in the way that we approach counselling. Okay, also there needs to be consent given, you know, from parent or legal guardians or counsellor representatives like especially their minors, or even documentation is something that you also do, where is the notes kept, how safe is it, who all has access to it, all of that is something that you take consent for. Okay. Moving ahead, we are at the fourth point just just a quick review anyone has any questions any doubts. Yes, go ahead. Thank you. So while we're talking about this, I know it's, I think I may already know the answer. So in India, so we have a lot of people who also go to, I mean, for lack of a better word, it's almost like a witchcraft practice, but they're witch doctors. In Africa too, but and they go to which doctors also culturally traditionally because their father's families visit, especially in the Hindu culture, you have a lot of that. Say someone's coming to you as a Christian counsellor and, and I don't know, I mean, if you have any personal experience where you might feel you know that there are two opposite forces that's colliding. Because this person is going, both, maybe under the pressure of family, family heritage, they're going and doing all these poojas and whatnot for his condition, but at the same time it's coming to you for heaven and, you know, you're trying a few things but you press me sense presence. So part of you would want to say like stop going to the bridge. I mean just choose one. But would that be an ethical break breach? Yeah, so the fact that so something now take just not. Okay, this is very valid. Take even maybe a person who is going to multiple counsellors. That's something that, you know, you would and that's where this point comes in this fact of a call to a relationship or collegiality when it comes to things like that, you know that they are probably seeking help in multiple areas. And that's something that you would reflect back to them and tell them that it is ethical to ethical for you as a counsellor to not be to be able to hand over a person. If there is another counsellor seeing to be able to give up rather to be able to give up seeing someone because it, there may be certain conflicts of interest for the for the counsellor themselves so you make that declaration to them that if they are choosing to meet two three people at one time. You actually call that out and let them know that it is not a product that it can be more harmful for them than it may be for you. And that is with regard to maybe multiple counsellors now with regard to something like you mentioned. I think over here is where you would talk about bring about like even if they are going to let's say witchcraft or, you know, which doctors getting them to articulate the pros and cons of such of going to such a practice, not not in a way that you you are defaming because again we're looking at dignity right. So what we're doing is probably maybe asking questions like okay you were there went to the witch doctor twice and you're here with me twice. Could you tell me how that helped you what is it that that you saw what makes you come over here at this point of time, what are you seeing as the difference. And then maybe letting them know that it may be counterproductive to do something that is opposing one to another. Okay, like for example, you go to a psychiatrist and you know take medication and then you come to the counsellor and the counsellor says don't take medication it's being counterproductive they are not. It doesn't help at all. So even in practices like this where people are into maybe witchcraft or other forms of treatments which are more occultish that's something that you can bring up in the conversation. However, and through the conversation you're hoping that they will come up with with an understanding of it, but it may not be ethical to say avoid or don't or that is not right. But you are helping them to see to be able to divide rightly where what kind of practices they're choosing and what they see as an effect. So that's something that you can call out but of course not telling them that it is you shouldn't be doing that giving information and helping them to assess it is the way to go. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, all right, so we'll go to the next one, which is collegiality in Christian counseling, or it is the it is a call to call to relationship. Now Christian counselors recognize we need to recognize the value and the benefit of forming and maintaining effective professional relationships with others across multiple domains we cannot work in isolation. Because we need to draw from what others are also doing. Okay, and you may there are oftentimes that you may need the help of others. So who who does this include. These include fellow mental health practitioners like psychiatrists, psychologists, occupational therapists, okay, or community ministry leaders, supervisors, mentors, any kind of educators counseling any counseling related referral sources so collegiality really means, you know, how can you cooperate and professionally respect one another and that's what should be encouraged that cooperation that respect is what is encouraged as because they are, they become as opportunities to work on common ground and on common purposes. So that's that's that's important in that. Okay. Yeah, so that's just to just ensuring that that you, you maintain good relationships as well as learn about their contribution towards someone who you're helping and how valuable their contribution is to who you're helping. The next one is confidentiality in Christian counseling confidentiality it recognizes that every counseling has a fundamental and a moral right to privacy and to have a wide range of thoughts or opinions or beliefs. That's that would that they would like to keep protected from public knowledge. Okay, and this this counseling relationship between a counselor and a counselor is enhanced whenever there is an environment that offers that appropriate level of confidentiality or privacy and safety. And this dynamic helps. It is that dynamic that helps to promote that strong and effective trust relationship we've learned about that we've spoken about the therapeutic alliance of the therapeutic relationship that actually is so important in the counseling process. So as counselors, we, we should not break confidentiality regarding the counselors communications without really first taking their consent or even and even discussing the in that you intend to disclose that without a written consent from the counseling or even a representative of the of the counselor themselves. Okay, so they have a right to do this. Okay. Now it's important to discuss. Sorry, sorry, move to slide. So it's important to discuss the limits of confidentiality and that's that becomes a part of our call to integrity as well. Right. Where consent where you are discussing a limit of confidentiality where counselors should be informed about both the counselor's commitment to confidentiality and the limits before engaging into a counseling. Like, like we had said, you know, the counselor needs to mention that they will keep information that the counselor has shared, confidential, apart from certain conditions. And that is something that needs to be discussed. So, so you We need to be careful that you avoid as a Christian counselor avoid stating that confidentiality is guaranteed or is absolute. Okay. You've got to be careful not to do that not to be bought into that, but there are limits of this confidentiality and it has the rule is the rule of mandatory disclosure is protecting persons from deadly harm. And we as Christian counselor even accept the limits of confidentiality when there is a human life that is abused or is in peril. And as a counselor you take that appropriate action may and also including a disclosure of that confidential information so that you can protect life. Especially when there is threats like suicide or homicide or body harm or life threatening disease or abuse of children, elders or dependent people. So these are some of the places where you do actually completely ensure that that point of a responsibility is there. Yes, Shay, do you have a question? Yes, yes ma'am. Very recent case. A lady who was constantly being abused by her husband and she met a counselor who pleaded to make the case known so that she could be protected and free. But due to the fact that she had begged the counselor not to mention to anyone what she was going through and that she was waiting on God to allow her husband change. That never happened until recently she passed on due to the abuse. I think I'm just drawing up this story to ask the question that when do we now draw the line as counselors knowing that okay, yes, the information Mike Kensely shared to me is confidential. And it's only on the basis that she or he gives me the right, you know, to make this known to the relevant authorities as in the case of being abused, right? That I can do such, you know, when do we draw the line to ensure that we knowing that this could be the end of that person's life. If that person remains in that relationship or whatever the situation that may be detrimental to the life and health of that. Where do we draw that like, you know, to break that to break or to go against their wishes not to make the information. Okay, so I think before I answer that question, one thing that you would do in a consent form is very important that or consent or something called as a face sheet or an information sheet where there's a there is the name and details contact number of someone that you as a counseling can reach out in emergency. And that emergency would mean anything that is assessed by the counseling as physical harm and up to physical emotional danger. Okay, so that's something that that that is important to take that's one where do we draw the line is through the assessment. You begin to see that the abuse has been now maybe even when the counseling comes to you it's been after many years so how long standing has it been. What have been the measures of help that the counseling has earlier taken. How imminently in what danger what imminent danger does the counseling appear to be as they're as they're discussing with you and certain evidences of that danger maybe there has been multiple bruise marks wounds, you know, cuts, breakage of bones, multiple hospital visits. Now, all of that gives an added evidence to your case, but let's say there's someone coming to you on the first hand, and you have noticed, you know, definite battering or badgering that has actually taken place, you need to immediately let your counseling know that they require help, giving them options of whichever areas they want to take and either it's a closer family member or some other resource, some other network a closer relationship network employer employee extended family, or a legal system. Okay, to helping them know that it is important to take on these three areas. Now, if, if for some case, okay, that it doesn't happen, also assuring, letting them know that going back to that place of abuse is definitely unsafe for them. So, so what you're doing is you are trying to get them to commit to disclosing this with someone else apart from you as a counselor, that's the very gain of it. And you would do that in the first time that you've made that kind of an assessment, it's important to ensure that. Now, at a time that, let's say, in your case, like the, like the one that you were talking about the counseling has refused, then it becomes important for you as a counselor. Again, by informing the counseling that you may need to reach out to either a family or, or, you know, somebody there, or a legal authority in order because you see the risk that is there over their lives, and that you would need to address this. If not personally with a family member, then legally. So you, you need to do that, especially when it comes anywhere with regard to physical abuse, sexual abuse, it is important for you as a counselor to step out of that boundary. And those are the limits of your confidentiality. That's what we're saying, you know, and that's what's important to do right at the beginning, giving the letting them know that these are certain limits of confidentiality. And if there is an assessment of these kind of things, you would need to reach out to somebody for help just so that they are insured safety. So that is your limit to that confidentiality, you can reach out. Because or else what would happen is, you can as a counselor, you're probably liable to get into trouble, because you knew information that that posed a risk to their lives and, you know, there was nothing done to seek protection over them. So it is important to do that, and letting them know that those are the limits of your of the confidentiality. Thank you, Buster. Thank you. Yes. Okay. Thank you, Shay. All right, we'll stop for a break. My clock shows 10.53 and we'll be back at 11.53.