 Saturday Channel 602. Welcome back into the show. Let's talk other developments in the bond space globally in the overnight session. Jonathan Sheridan from Fig. Jonathan, welcome to you. It's sort of the case that normalization is likely to start soon in the US. We know this much. We've seen, if anything, moving at the longer end of the curve. I'm going to know perhaps tonight though, might there be something on the radar that we're not quite paying due attention to. For instance, you've got producer prices, retail sales and consumer settlement. What about that retail sales number? Is there a chance that that could prove the fly on the ointment and royal the bond market? Good afternoon, Carson. Yeah, look, I mean, retail sales obviously points to consumer demand. And as we know, the US market is about a 70 percent, sorry, US economy is about 70 percent based on consumption. So, you know, a weaker retail sales print could delay the Fed in their rate hike. But retail sales numbers tend to be relatively volatile. And what central bankers tend to look at is the trend. And they'll be seeing that trend, you know, being on the improvement over the last 12 to 18 months or so. The way that this all played into the domestic bond, yeah, very little movement. But in terms of the eye tracks and the levels there that, you know, we've been coming to expect for most of the year, we've seen a bit of a breakout above 100. So, the significance of that now to have had occurred. Yeah, so what what the eye tracks measures is a sort of generic five year credit spread. So basically for investment grade issue is what they have to pay over the swap rate to issue a five year bond. And as you said, we've seen that for most of the year under 100 points. And in the last sort of three weeks or so, it's pushed out to as high as one, one 30 actually, after rallying back in the last week or so to 116. So what that really means is that borrowing costs for investment grade issues the majority of the Australian bond market have increased by about 15% or so over the last month or so. And do you kind of get a sense that that has been it's dissuading a number of corporates from actually putting down these on the table, that they would rather hold things over maybe till January, maybe just to see how things are. I mean, I suppose you run a real risk that you delay and you see a whole class of investors maybe just away from the action in a period of time. But maybe that's the price worth paying. Yeah, look, it's interesting. I think it depends on the individual issuer. So, you know, our bond market is dominated by financials and resources companies, much like the ASX. So banks are always issuing. So, you know, they they have rolling funding programs and it's their treasurer's job to maintain a broad base across their funding sources. So it's all about that interest margin for the banks. And as regular issuers, they don't necessarily get exposed to the market at one particular time. And for other less frequent issuers, you can see it being a problem. QBU, for example, issued some sub debt a while ago, about a month ago, which was initially priced at 350 over, they waited a week, and then they actually issued a 400 over. So, you know, those those moves can be quite marked for the less frequent issuers. And as you say, you know, if there's a particular investor set that's waiting and ready with cash at one particular time, then you can get a better deal than if you try to issue when they're not ready and waiting with the cash. Your perspective on the ANZ struggled to persuade its investors on the as opposed to sustainability of the dividend in light of franking credit. They've been of the view to say, look, these credits are only a value. If you're a shareholder who receives them, they say no value in keeping surplus credits just in the system. Is that to your mind, you know, enough of an explanation at this point in time? I think I think every company that, you know, unless they have a significant surface of franking, and they're not necessarily driven by their dividends that they pay, are going to manage their franking balance as best they can to their to their own to their own benefits. So the banks in particular, and the other big dividend payers such as Telstra, you know, they're really attractive for their for their dividend yields. And as you say, if you can utilize that franking, which particularly self managed super funds in pension phase can, then that's that's clearly a significant factor in decision making as to whether to invest in those stocks for yield or whether to go into another asset class, for example, bonds. It's a it's a conundrum that we see all the time when when looking, you know, to allocate funds into bonds is that investors are effectively addicted to the free revenue they get from franking. So, you know, my view is that, you know, you should look at risk as the first measure when you invest. And if you're after capital and income stability, then equities probably is not the best place to go for that in the first instance. All right, Jonathan, as always, thank you. You have a great afternoon and we thanks. Thanks for asking me to Jonathan Sheridan from