 Hello everyone and welcome to the Circular Metabolism Podcast, the bi-weekly meeting where we have in-depth discussions with thinkers, researchers, activists, policymakers and practitioners to better understand the metabolism of our cities, and how to systemically reduce their environmental impact in a socially just and context-specific way. I'm your host, Aricid from Metabolism of Cities, and on today's episode we will talk about the circulation of flows among cities and their greater hinterlands, but this time we will not only talk about flows of materials and energy, but also of capital, information and scaled labors. We will underline how cities are at the epicenter of the global economy, how they have become new geographies of extractions by sometimes grabbing resources, grabbing land, distributing it through a global market, and leaving behind dead land and dead water. To talk about these topics I have the honor and the absolute privilege to have Saskia Sassen, which is a Robert Lind professor of sociology at Columbia University. She has studied cities' immigration and states in the world of world economy with inequality, gendering and digitization as three key variables throughout her work, and she has wrote many books. I've enjoyed the global city back in the day when I did urban studies as a master's. Also one of the latest ones, expulsion, expulsion's brutality and complexity in the global economy. I want to spend some more time on this. So I wish you all to enjoy this episode before we start. Please spread the word and share this episode with other fellow urbanites if you enjoyed it. And now let's start. Thank you very much Saskia for coming to this podcast and welcome. Could you please briefly present a bit your work and who you are? Yes, well it's a pleasure for me to have this opportunity to discuss with you, to address certain issues. I have long been interested in a whole variety of conditions, but it's not an arbitrary variety. It is in a way elements that sort of depend a bit from each other, sometimes in very strong ways, like the quality of the water, whatever, you know, we just are dependent on. A city is dependent on a vast array of elements. So that is sort of what interests me a lot about cities, is how they actually succeed most of the time in bringing together all kinds of elements of enormous diversity and diversities of many different kinds, you know, the way one city builds its railways, its bus systems, its parks, very different from how another one does it. So that type of stuff, you know, how cities have sort of found a way to produce a knowledge zone that is theirs and we pick up and we get some elements and we overlook other elements, you know, it's that kind of a mix. And so you started if I understood correctly from more of a political science and philosophy background before you went into sociology and economics, what made you gain interest in this urban phenomenon or this, you know, this urbane or the city? Well, first, it's because it's an open system. You know, many very fancy situations which one could also study are close systems. You have to accept the rules of the game. A city is by definition a messy, open, if nobody can fully control it, no matter what, you know. So there is something interesting, something alive. And after all, cities, you know, cities have existed long before national states existed long before so many aspects that today are constitutive in our lives. But there in the city, the city's already had it, you know, millennia. I mean, let's remember that some of our cities are truly, truly old. So clear and they have survived. Of course, many cities have been reduced, many cities have been destroyed, many cities have fallen in the hands of greedy people who have etc, etc, all of that. Nothing is perfect, precisely because it is an open system, precisely because it needs to keep on adding, the city needs to keep on adding elements, recognizing emergent conditions, recognizing that new elements are in play, etc, etc. You know, that is really sort of what interests me, that with all its complexities, all its closures, all its exclusivities, etc, etc. In the end, it is an open system. You know, if you think of it as a whole, there may be parts that are very private. But, but you know, so anyhow, that's a bit the reasoning. And I guess with that line of thinking, you can study cities for an eternity and still learn many, many new things, I guess, yeah. Yeah. And they have lived, they have had some of the cities have had such long lives, certainly in a place like Italy or the Mediterranean zone, right, where there was much movement. And you know, these are really interesting histories. So I'm wondering, just there are some cities in your life, I guess you have worked in New York for many, many years, but you also went to Poitiers for some years for your studies. So I'm wondering, you know, how did a small, medium city like Poitiers in the 60s and compared to New York or Indiana, where you also did your PhD, did you had some parallels between them? Did you, when you were looking at cities, was there something that you were like a grid of reference where you started thinking about cities or how did the, or was it later on when you start theorizing your work that you set more structured examples of how to compare cities? You know, I think both, both aspects were in play, but there is something about a city that every city is a bit different. And so very slowly and gradually I began to notice this that the differences of cities, and I was traveling quite a bit. You know, I grew up in the, I was born in the Netherlands, but then my family moved to Latin America. And then I did my own trips to various places. So, so, you know, you begin to see that there are cities everywhere because without cities, most of us, whether they're big, rich, poor, small, doesn't matter, but they are a zone where we humans can find protection. Not always perfect protection, but a protection of sorts, you know, we can survive and we can be protected. So when you, and let's remember that there was a time when there were wars all over, take Europe. Europe at that point had like 600 different dominant entities. I mean, we're talking an old epoch. And, you know, each one of those had its own base that it needed to construct and to live in, protect itself, etc. So, you know, when you begin to look at these long histories of cities, you realize, my God, they have been there so long before most of us who now live, you know, who are alive, you know, we tend to take it for granted. We don't realize what it took in ancient times, you know, how the city was a site also for protecting yourself from many, many dangers. Today we don't, we don't think that way very much. I mean, the city can still be protected, but still it's very different from those older epochs. And so this, let's say, central place of a city existed for a very long time and then nations arrived more or less and kind of diluted it for a while. But in your work, you kind of pinpointed that in a, in a globalized words, cities are once again kind of the anchors or the nodes of this global economy, global production, consumption network. What were your findings there? Well, you put that very, very well, you know, that not all people when I, when I do an interview have understood it with the clarity that you just did. So that's very good. You know that the city was, it was anything because of refuge, it is where you could find food, it is where you could find help, it is where you could, et cetera, et cetera. And we tend to forget that. But so in their origins, they really played significant roles, they really mattered. Today we tend to think of the city often all that traffic, all the, the this, the that, you know, but even in that, in that overwhelmed situation of today's major cities, there still is a, there is a function there is a function that no city can do without. And it's a function that enables the circulation of water, the circulation of people, the circulation of cars, you know, and, and so you have to stand back and respect this, you know, and say, yes, you know, they really do. It is not just us humans who inhabit the city. It is also the city itself and how it was built that is an enabling condition, you know, and it's partial. It's not perfect. It's always partial. So that is a bit the thinking, you know, sort of what I think about this. And so I guess back in the day, when you did your, your, the research about global cities and the global cities function that were of course not the same for, for every city. This was a bit kind of going against the grain or at least back in the day, if I understand correctly, there was much a bigger emphasis on, on nations rather than cities and they kind of exactly. Yeah. Yeah, you said it exactly. Exactly. And so that sort of I mean, you know, I'm a traveler. I know that there is an international system that all these other elements are in play also. But at the same time, I found that there was something about the city that intrigued me. And it basically at some point, you know, when it all started, had to do with the fact that big business actors have big, big businesses, big firms, the point to which these firms tended to need a city because they were so big often, so rich, they could have gone anywhere. Why deal with a hassle of what a city also entails? Why did they have to be in a city, you know? So out of that, there came a whole variety of observations that I made. It was not that I was a fanatic about cities, you know? I was just saying that there was something in play here that people hadn't quite picked up on, you know, there was there were contradictions is one way of putting it. The city really contains a whole set of contradictions. And most of them turn out to be necessary contradictions. You know, there was no perfect closure. There is no perfect, ultimate definition of what ought to be done. Everything is a bit open and a bit closed. You know, and that can help and that can also be a challenge, you know, that you don't really know how you are going into that. Yeah, of course, it's quite challenging whenever someone needs to define what the city is. And because that entails how to study it, and that entails, you know, what is a good city, what is a bad city, or how to plan a new city. But I guess we'll get back to that. So you mentioned a lot in this global economy, the role of intermediation with lawyers, financiers, translation, etc. etc. But also like to add the cleaners and the ones who clean the, you know, etc. I mean, it's a whole world onto its own. And some of it is visible during the day and some of it is never visible during the day, but only at night. And some of it is never visible because it's below ground, you know. I mean, when you think about what it all takes to have a city functioning, more or less, I mean, it's never going to be perfect. You stand back and you say, wow, we did that. We humans that did not fall from the sky. No, we did it. And yeah, and I mean, some people detest cities. But most people, they need cities and they find that there is something, you know, that they wouldn't want to miss. Nobody is perfectly in love with the city. There are too many issues. The garbage that wasn't collected, you know, you name it. I mean, it's a very long list. And, you know, some cities do it better than others, etc. But there we are. We really need, we need those faces. And indeed, at least for, at least my field is more studying cities and their environmental impact. But it's great to see that it's the locus where you have the global and the local needs. So you have to somehow negotiate at the same time, as you said, the garbage here, but at the same time, the extraction mine somewhere in Congo because of our, I don't know, consumption of a phone or of a. So it's this very, very interesting interconnection of challenges that you somehow need to solve at the same time. But, you know, the administration is not the same, of course, here and there. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, really, really. When you think about how a city can actually, more or less, most cities function. They are imperfect, but they function. And that is also impressive in its own terms, you know, that I mean, some cities are some cities are truly hard work. Let's remember that, you know, that the endless traffic like Latin America has quite a few cities that are really hard work. Because you're forever delayed on everything, you know, but, but one hopes that that and one one issue for me that has emerged as very important is that we need to build more cities. We should not keep expanding, expanding our already very big cities. Because that is only to the advantage of the better, the higher levels of income. But the poor, the poorer workers, then have very, very long trips. Those trips can be two hours to get to your job every morning that you have to work. I mean, that to me is a marker of deep injustice that is absolutely not desirable that we should absolutely eliminate. So, so from the perspective of the powerful actors who function in the center of the city, they, they, as long as there are more people coming whom they can hire etc to do their work, they're fine. But those people are not fine. They have to get up at 4am, you know, of the morning every morning. And that kind of, that is a kind of injustice that is invisible to most of us. But it's a profound injustice that we have allowed our cities to just grow, grow, grow. And where the poorer classes are the sufferers, they pay the price for these very long trips, you have to get up, you know, two hours earlier than etc. To me, that is a major issue. Every time I say, in a, in a whole variety of countries, we need to build new cities, rather than keeping the expanding, expanding, expanding. People look at me, because in their image, the answer is, we have built our cities. And what is invisible are the poorer classes that have to take these long trips, they are invisible to our eyes, they are invisible to the employers, you know, and they have to, so, so it is, it is sort of to be very interesting, the resistance of the notion, we build new cities, the building of new cities is not just new cities, it's about generating a juster option for life, for life, especially for the poorer classes. To me, that is what guides me to say, we should not keep expanding, expanding our existing cities, because the ones who suffer are the poorer classes, we need to build new cities and stop this endless expansion. I mean, there are some of the cities in Latin America that are monsters, they're monsters for the workers, you know, every morning these people have to travel for two hours and they have to hope that the bad bus is not going to, you know, suddenly have a breakdown and I mean, it's just, it's so unfair when you think of our rich cities, our, you know, we have many rich countries nowadays, it can do better than what we have done. And how do you see, so, because cities are, of course, also the place where activism takes place, a lot of political new idea, new political ideas can take place, do you think that the implementation of more new cities will perhaps enable more laboratories for changing the way that circulation of flow is happening today? Would that be an enabler in your sense? Well, that certainly would, but it's also just the notion of having a very, I'm really thinking in very simple terms here, when I say a reasonably sized city, you know, so that yes, you sit in the bus for an hour, but that's the maximum rather than three hours, you know, if you have to wait and etc, because there are not enough buses, you know, something we need, there is like a little list of elements that should be in play in all major cities, certainly in all of these big cities that are mostly not in play. And what is not in play is that which enables the lower income people who also live in those cities to have a more reasonable life in those cities, that they don't have to get up two hours earlier, that the mother who has children does not get home until, you know, a very late time. And these are people who never sleep enough. And I don't know if you have spent a week not sleeping enough, you know how you feel. Well, for them it's life long, you know, just taking these simple things. And how little it would really take instead of keeping expanding, expanding our cities, to just build some new cities. I mean, it's not going to be very easy and it will take time. And again, I must say, mostly when I say this, people look at me like I'm crazy, which is fine with me. Yeah, it's so it's a difficult question. It's a tough question, indeed, because of course, more, more cities equals more materials and all of that. But indeed, the pace, or at least in, as you said, in poorer countries, at least big cities also mean slums also mean numerous informal economies. So yeah, the scale, the scale of a city, the function of a city is something elusive to me. And I haven't figured out what is, well, whether there is, and probably there's not a good answer to that. But there are certain like Europe has done quite well. There are some major cities like, you know, in France and in some of these countries, huge cities. But where you have a lot of traffic, but they are of course, mostly also have good traffic. I mean, they have good, you know, good instruments for the traffic. So yes, we have some cities that are really huge, you know, that are, but in Europe, most cities are actually pretty reasonably sized, you know, they are not, they are big, but they are not extreme. They are not like what I see in Latin America. Yeah, indeed. I mean, the population within, let's say, Lagos or Luanda or some other cities, be it in Asia, be it in Africa or being in Latin America, surpass the understanding that we can have. I mean, there is still London and Paris in Europe that are 10 million plus, but or at least they're metropolises. But indeed, imagine a city of 20, 30 million inhabitants. It hits a bit with vertigo. And when you have very low quality transport, which produces a lot of very negative gases, etc., in other words, those drivers also in the long run, they get ill from every day, you know, doing the traveling. So it is unfair to really a rather large sector of our populations. It's unfair that they should be traveling so much. And the ones that suffer the most, I do think are usually the poorer classes who live at the edges of those cities. And so it's a double negative for me that is problematic. You have a lot of, from what I understand in your work, you not only look at cities, but also how global economic systems are affected by and are driven by cities, so are impacted by cities, but also cities are the ones that are transforming them. And I don't remember, I think it was one in one of your books, you mentioned that we kind of have steered towards a new type of capitalism that is not anymore imperialism. Because we don't, it's not as in the past where there was a civilization, or even if there was colonization, all of that, there was an objective, perhaps of civilization. Now, I'm not at all, you know, saying that it was a good thing. But today, it's much more aggressive or brutal than what it was. There is no reason behind it. Yeah, I think in many, in many ways, it is certainly, you know, I grew up in Latin America. Latin America, as I already said, is a particularly brutal continent. You know, it started by being brutalized by the Europeans who came and whatever the others who came and, you know, and it just is really, whereas if you look at, for instance, most of the towns in Europe and the city, you have a lot of smaller cities, which are very important items. And they are not allowed to expand, expand, expand, like they are in the Americas, or in Africa, you know, oh, yeah, whatever, anything goes, you know. So there really are differences, I would say, in our world. And these differences are sufficiently known by now that people can understand that there are some cities that do it well and other cities that really don't care about the people. They may care about a particular little group and elite or whatever, and they are very careful with them, but the rest is left out. So the notion that cities also contain within them different types of injustice, different the willingness to recognize injustice, and the notion that hell what the hell I am not going to worry about those are poor people, they are lucky that they are where they are, you know, so you have you have a multiplicity of reactions. When when you stand back and you look at it, it really comes down often to rather at one extreme, extremely brutal way of understanding or saying what we need, what we don't need, I'll let them just, you know, if they they're happy to have those jobs, you know, etc, etc. I mean, those are a lot of negatives. On the other hand, cities also are spaces where those without power get to make a history, get to make a home for themselves, get a chance to innovate, you know, so so there there are these ambiguities, but it's certainly there certainly are these are systems, urban systems that there can be pretty impressive on both the negative end and the positive end, you know, it and and so that the what I really respect is people who live in cities, people who like being in cities, they are not naive. They know that there is a lot of injustice and some of them then also try to change that a bit. Most of them are too busy, etc, you know, but but there are, for me, the city is also an opportunity for the better off, you know, those of us who have good lives and good days to also notice more clearly those whom we often depend to who are workers we depend on, they become visible to us. If we want to, we see them. If we don't want to see them, well that that also happens, you know, but so there is something, there is a legibility that the urban condition gives us, which is not present in many documents that we might sign in many arrangements that we might make, you know, etc, etc. So it's like a it's a strange mix of options that the city presents, but it one item that it does make visible is how the most beautiful building, the most beautiful set of trees in a park can be brutal like hell because other elements are because there's so many other actors. It's not just the this and the that, the trees and the people. No, there's the trees, the people and in between you have everything. And you know, and people learn, I think people who live in big cities, they actually learn stuff that people who live in in modest little, they never get to know those, the negative, you know, the problematic aspects, the horrifying aspects that what you find, what one might find terrifying, you know, in a city also, I'm thinking of young women and who get abused and if they are extraordinary combinations of elements, you know, it really these contradictions that you mentioned. And yeah, I think you you're right because there's, I mean, you also have some work on refugees and migrants and how this occurs to cities, but also how activism occurs to cities, how many of the struggles, intersectionality struggles happen within cities. Hopefully that would lead to something different. But there is also the cities are now the the epicenter of finance. And back in the day, we're talking about the spatial fix with David Harvey and how, you know, putting money into buildings, kind of put or invested money in the city and the city became an actor in itself of finance. And I don't know what your take is on the city the city as a well, a very engaged actor somehow without its will. Sometimes a city is already the culprit of many things due to financial elements. Exactly. I mean, there is no doubt that in our major cities, and the cities do not necessarily have to be very big. Think of Switzerland, some of its cities very considered the norm of concentrations of wealth in a rather modest little city. But but yeah, what you have is a is a development of a whole variety of instruments that were major enablers for those who wanted to accumulate wealth. You know, so the big cities as opposed to towns, because in times you would not have those systems, the big cities drew also attracted a lot of people who wanted to make money. And that had some good effects because it also meant building housing, cleaning the streets and all of that. But of course, it also had a negative because it meant that there was a project of grabbing. And that would mean that the weaker elements in a city could be, you know, removed with great ease, you know, pushed to the edges, etc, etc. You know, the city is also an open system. And in that sense, there are positives, and there are negatives. And both of them are not necessarily each one of these are not necessarily easy to change, because they are embedded in certain conditionalities. The stuff doesn't fall from the sky. The stuff emerges from the ground level, so to speak, in a sense of what is it that we need? What is it that, you know, that we must have? What is it that we have to eliminate? So, you know, you can't just simply change a city. You can change a bit, you can clean it up, but changing the whole city, forget it. So if you hit a city that already is like some of the Latin American cities that already have just, you know, massive transport issues and problems, etc, you are stuck with some very bad air quality and probably is going to affect your lungs. And I don't know at all, you know, whereas other cities like European cities, they are almost perfect, you might say, you know, everything is clean and okay. And, you know, many people use bicycles rather than cars, you don't have trucks and buses that it, you know, I put all the poison out there. So it varies enormously, but a functioning city like the European cities are a very good example, of course. It really, you will stand back and you respect it. You say, you know what, of course, it's imperfect, but it really is good. For instance, also that the Dutch allow the bikes, you know, in the city, the bicycles, you know, that story, right? And stuff like that, which just enables people. Instead of taking a bus, they use the bike, which is better for everybody involved, you know? So I think that some parts of the world have just been more intelligent and less grabbing. The Americas are one of the most violent continents in the world. I mean, they are. The Americas are brutal. The Americas emerge as what they were by all kinds of actors who went to the Americas to extract, not to build, not to invent, not to make, to extract. That was the main project. It eventually expands, of course, you know, because you need people, you need houses, you need etc. But let's not forget how it started. In Europe, the cities emerge as zones that protect people. Because, you know, way, way, way back, I mean, centuries, the cities in Europe were cities that were there to protect the residents, the people. That is very different from Latin America. You know, it's the opposite. It was not about helping people. It was about extracting value and, you know, etc. etc. So it's quite interesting for me and it's important. It seems to me to recognize the differences in how cities emerge, how cities function, you know, in a whole variety of situations. And the continent, I mean, I must say, the Japanese have done it much better than the Americans. The Europeans have done it much better than the Americans, you know. The Americas emerged in our history as a zone for extract. Whereas many other places emerged as zones of protection, that you were afraid of certain enemies and you had to work together to protect yourself from those enemies. So those histories already mark a difference, you know. I mean, I'm exaggerating a bit because clearly right now everything is sort of more or less, you know, a tissue, connective tissue. But when you think of origins, you know, there you begin to understand a difference. And of course, I mean, cities, European cities have externalized all of their bad stuff as somewhere else. To these very cities that we're talking about. Yeah, good that you brought that up because that's absolutely true. And yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they're sweeping under the American and African and Asian carpets, all of the sad stories and the crimes and all of that. But yeah, because I mean, they saw the Americas as a site of extract. You know, this was another history. When you think in the 1600s or so, we had hundreds of, in Europe and in the continent, we had hundreds of entities that were sort of little, little, that were little cities of a sort, you know, that, and they sort of worked together. I mean, they had a lot of wars too, but it is a different history from the, from the history of colonizing, you know, of grabbing. I mean, the thing about the Americas is that the Americas were seen as sources of all kinds of stuff that could be used, that could be used in Europe, that could be used in other parts of the world. I mean, that already marks a difference. It became a zone for extracting. In the continent, in Europe, it was different. You know, it was same thing with the Chinese. It's a different story. It's a different history of engagement with the urban condition. And yeah. So I think that in one of your projects, you tracked or you studied extractive activities on this? Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, that was that for a while there, I was really into extraction. So what did you learn or what were some of the extraction activities? Some of the stuff that I'm just describing now, all that, a whole variety of modes of extraction. It's not just about extracting gold. It's much more than that. You know, yes, there was extraction or gold extraction, but it's also the, the, the extractions that depended really on destroying others, you know, the indigenous people, whatever. I mean, a whole variety of animals. You know, now Europe at some point, early, early, early on, also had that, but the Europe of our sort of modernity is not that kind of a Europe that, and it's the Americans really that reflect this mode. More so, I would say, than also some of the Eastern countries, you know, which also have deeper histories. I mean, America's was a continent. That fell under the controls of those who wanted to extract value. It was not about building. It was not about, you know, a refuge. It was, it was a different, it's origins at its origins. It's a different history. That is what I'm saying, because eventually it all sort of, you know, yeah, yeah, it becomes more or less the same. And so due to this, let's say, overlasting component of cities into all of that. So if, if we're now due to finance, due to the current economic system, more into this extractive type of geographies or cities, or let's say the motor or the engine for leading extraction somewhere on the planet, perhaps, who knows, we will come to another power system sometime in the future, because cities overlast power systems. So they existed before capitalism. They might exist also after capitalism. What do you think cities can teach us in this, you know, perhaps desirable system or more equal or more just power system of the future? The best teaching that they can do is what you were describing. In other words, that you have reasonable cities, cities that work. Yes, all cities are going to have injustice in them, and they're going to be rich and poor, etc. But many cities, and again, Europe is a very good example. Many of those cities, they work, they work for the people. Sure, there might be nasty elements in play, you know, but then they are addressed, etc. And in that sense, I repeat, you know, the Americas have been more brutal than that European style colonization. Mind you, they were no angels, no angels in all of these. So, and I do also think that a well-run city, we haven't quite talked about that, a well-run city in today's world can really make a difference for people who are poor, you know, and it is not about giving them a great house. No, it is about maintaining certain basic rules of the game if you want in a city, you know, that the cleaners come and clean the streets, that when the light bulbs go down, even if it's a poor neighborhood, you fix it, you know, that all the systems in play, that there is good quality water. Remember, in the United States, the famous story of when they discovered in Jersey, right, that there was water that was, that was venom, that was like venom almost, and these two kids, brothers, one, the older one who had avoided the bad water, and the little one, the differences in their sizes, you know, there was a whole, suddenly we discovered an enormous array of little injustices that manifested in our bodies. Little, you know, brothers from the same family, but the one then was there when they had the good water quality, and the other was there when they only had the bad quality, you know, the indifference of legislators or whatever the actors in play to sort of make sure that the water is clean, that it's proper this, that it's proper that, right. So it's forever a bit of a combat. So the city is not something that, okay, it's done, it just doesn't work that way. You know, there are too many transversal things, too many people who are desperate, et cetera, you know, all of that. But with it all, so having said all of that, with it all, I say, cities have, they have helped us mostly, you know, they have not been major obstacles, whereas other issues have been, like the quality of water that I was talking about, right, that, and that, and when they understood that that was happening, they immediately try to remedy that. That's another aspect, you know. I mean, we confront many issues, no doubt, many more issues that then are usually addressed. But you have many situations really where they are trying to help, you know, wherever the forces, the people in charge of the city will try to help. And so you said a good city or how to run properly run a city. Of course, there is running a city, so having the departments of infrastructure, of water, of, let's say, waste, et cetera, et cetera, but there is also, well, all of the ties that we have between each other, and there is also the people and then the corporate and then the other elements. So there is just too many facets to hold into one brain, but how do we... But that's why, that is what is amazing to the city, and that is why we don't have to hold it in our brain to know it because it's an open system. And so there are many different sites where it goes a bit differently, better here, better there, but you know, there is a sense of something that is accessible to us, the membership, you know, of the city. That's very important. In a very large, beautifully done firm, you know, that all the workers, you know, one of these large, large buildings, you know, for workers, and they all have to have their food at midday, blah, blah, blah, all of that. Okay, very well protected, but you are, you are subject to somebody else, right? Whereas the city, you can be poor, you can be rich, you know, it's also your city, and that I think is very important. Now, the privatizing of, you know, areas of cities that is also happening, especially Latin America, that's another story that to me is sometimes understandable and in other cases, it's very problematic to have these private, you know, these privatized setups, you know, what I'm talking about, right? Do you mean about neighborhoods or? Yeah, I mean, I mean that, that more and more, say in Latin America, especially, which is a continent of violence in many ways, that you have, you have situations where they create, it looks like a nice, you know, part of the city or housing, but it's actually all protected, you know, like a closed gate community there and can have access to that. I don't know how you call that. Close gate community or something like that, yeah? Exactly, gated communities, there you go. That to me is a big problematic, you know, sometimes it's okay, but in many ways it maximizes the difference between the poor and the rich, and a city shouldn't be that way. A city has quite a bit of that, you know, that it's clear what's rich, what's poor, but at the same time, we are always intersecting. The rich and the poor will intersect in a city, you know, intersect by going to the same shop, by having to, whatever it is, you know, and that to me is important to keep that, to keep that notion that the rich and the poor do intersect in cities. I mean, not as much as I would want to, because we have fancy cars, etc., but in smaller cities, you know, where people also walk, you have a sense, you know, that the poorer and the richer parts intersect in some, they are aware of each other. That's already something. They may not love each other, but they're aware of each other, and that notion of being aware, and I, the modest worker, know that I am here and there is somebody who's very rich, but we both are walking on this street. You know, that notion that you don't expel the poorer, you know, they are there. The long run, I think that matters. It might not matter in the moment, in the long run, this notion that the poor will also walk on the streets and in the parks, where the rich walk. In the long run, that matters. In the short run, you don't know. In the long run, it becomes a practice, it becomes part of life. That is what cities have been able to do, that the rich and the poor will regularly confront each other, confront not in the sense of being next to each other, so to speak. You mentioned it now, and I think you also yourself have a history of activism, and cities are, let's say, the cradles of activism. Well, there is of course a lot of activism more and more in places of extraction, but how do you, let's say, we want to act with the city, against the city, or for the city. What were some actions in face of all of these local and global challenges that we can do within these cities, let's say that we live? Yeah. Well, I think this is happening. People have woken up. You know, there is something that is active, that makes claims, that is succeeding. And I think the fact that women began to be these very significant actors in these very partial and very localized moves. Let's make this better. Let's clean this up, because the women wanted their children to have cleaner playing ground, whatever, a lot of little things. And because most men are supposedly working, and so many women are, especially when they have small children, are still at home. There was a possibility really for women to set terms in the sense that I think we should clean this because this is a good piazza where the children can play, whereas that one is dangerous, because the boys can come with the bikes or there are cars that are too close by, whatever. But you begin to participate that you as a woman, you as a man, you as a child, etc. You begin to participate in, okay, we can do this, we can do that, that energy. And a city that works more or less okay, in which they have multiple sites, it's not all one place, that it really can make a difference. So we have to also give it a chance. We have to give a chance to the locals to understand what can really make a difference, because often newcomers to a city, they don't know what's happening here, etc. So there is a kind of, there is a passage, if you want, that you do when you arrive as a new person into a city. And you have to accept that, okay, I don't quite get this, and they don't seem to like me. There is hard work to do, but at the same time, certain modes of conduct can signal a positive disposition. It's a set of informal communication moves, where they don't always require a speech, it can be just a signal, you know, just signal that go across the street with your baby, whatever. And that is what a city is good at, and that is what a city should be doing. And that means the people in the city, the police and everybody, so that you make it, and you have cities where it all sort of works rather easily, and then you have cities which are in nightmare, because there's some ridiculous chief, you know, that is driving everybody crazy. Just end up with two small questions in general. Yeah, what you call two small questions. No, no, no, it should be small. So I generally ask, do you have anything that you want to work on for this new year, so a project or another element of a city that you want to discover? And lastly, if you have any articles or any books or any movies or something that you would like to recommend to continue exploring this topic? Oh, right. On the second part, I will send you some things that's the simplest is for me to Fantastic. In terms of what was the first one that you asked? About a project or something that you would like to still discover in 2022? Well, I think if there is a project that concerns cities and the urban condition, it has to do with me for two things. One of them is that we have to stop just allowing the endless expansion of cities that is good for the prosperous classes and the rich. It's a disaster for the poorer classes because they have endless trips to there. I already talked about that. So that to me is a very important point. And whenever I talk about it, they look at me like saying, you know, I mean, you know, why not? No, it's an error. Now there are many places say in Europe where they have the perfect formats, you know, there are a couple that Paris is becoming very, very big. But still whereas in the Americas, it's mixed, you know, it's mixed. So I think that there is work to be done in terms of finding, especially in the Americas and in some other parts of the world. I think Europe has done quite well in many ways, much better than others. But so there is a real rethinking. How do we enable people? You know, how do we make sure of the quality of water? Is, as it should be, because water is something that we all need every day, many times in the day, and it can kill if you have the wrong water. And we have very sad stories about, say, I think I mentioned you already, the two brothers, one tall, the other very short, because the short one, who was the older one, drank water that was totally contaminated, but it didn't have the taste, you know, you didn't know that it was that great. How is that possible? This happened in a significant city in the United States. It became a famous case, you know, that illustrated and captured a whole variety of those types of elements. So that is one thing. And was there something else that I was going to say? You were saying there were two things. So yeah, the scroll and then I guess the quote. Yeah. So one is the notion of we shouldn't just allow the cities to grow, grow, grow. We should build new cities. And the other one is we should really pay attention to all the elements that are in play and that affect the health of everybody, old, young children. So I mean, I think that is something that could be done. I don't see the big deal that it is, you know, I just really don't because we can do it. You know, this is not like building. No, this is clean up work. Maintenance work indeed. Clean and maintenance, right? Yeah. Very good. Thank you so much for your time, Saskia. Thank you as well, everyone, for listening and watching until the end. We'll meet you again in a couple of weeks for another discussion. Thanks again, Saskia. Bye bye.