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Having bad internet connection, you can try turning off your video, closing other tabs or using your phone as a speaker. If you have any questions, please use the chat. Talk to me and I'll try to help you out. Great. Thank you, Andrew. Okay, first order of business is the public forum. This is an opportunity to make a comment for anything that is not on tonight's agenda. If you would like to address the board and you're participating in Zoom, please raise your virtual hand. Or if you're here in the room and you'd like to address the board on anything that is not on tonight's agenda, please raise your hand. So you've got no most hands on, Simon. Okay. We'll go into the public hearing portion of tonight's meeting. We have two items on the agenda, DP 23-10, Novelist Holdings, LLC. This is for a master sign plan for 115 Wellness Drive. And then we have DP 23-11, which is Jared Enterprises. This is for a discretionary permit for an accessory use at 21 Commerce Street. First up is DP 23-10, the master sign plan. Who is participating for the applicant? Joseph is trying to say something. Joseph, if you want to recognize your name, he just sent one of us a message in the chat having a problem with your microphone. So, no Du Boises and a butter on the Jared Enterprises. In that case, I think we'll have to continue this. Skip ahead and pick them up on the backside. Yeah, well, let's see if James Unworth emerges or some other representative from Novelist Holdings, LLC. So we'll just do these out of order DP 23-11, which is Jared Enterprises. The applicant would please come forward. Yes, please. Thank you. Welcome. If you would please state your name and address for record please. My name is Richard Hamlin. My address is Post Office, box nine, Essex Junction, Vermont, 05453. Bob Lake, 87 Commerce Street. Okay, before I turn it over to Simon for the staff report. So what we're going to do is we're going to listen to the staff report from Simon. And then you're going to have an opportunity to address the board board members and the applicant. When I was reading this staff report. There was quite a bit of information that I felt was was lacking to make an informed decision. I was wondering about the, the auxiliary use. What was the layout of the restaurant was the scope of the restaurant. How would the loading and unloading to the warehouse take place in a safe way and interact with the restaurant. I would really, I would really like as much of those details to be, to be conveyed in tonight's meeting. And then before I close the hearing, I want to hear from the DRV members, if you feel that we have sufficient information to render a decision, or if we should continue this, get more information. We will continue it at a future meeting. So that, that's a conversation that we'll have at some point after Simon's report and after the applicant has an opportunity to address the board. Any questions before we get going. So this is the question, which is a question and permit to establish on site assumption of ice cream. Accessory use in the ICDW. It's commonly a warehouse used by an ice cream food manufacturer nearby in the joining parts of 27th street. This is one of a number of building numbers passed away by the applicant which increased 23, which is in terms of an unaffiliated building 47 and 65. So that's the picture there. So the staff report does discuss a number of issues, which I think is going to discuss with the applicant for deciding that. We didn't get any comment letters on this application. Contrary to what we did actually get the ICDW comments and they included in the relevant section of infrastructure. The ICDW was developed some time ago around 1946, which predates the unified bylaws. As a result, it has a number of non-conformities relating to access through to landscape buffers, street trees and parking and setback on the street. As I'm sure you know the DRB can require correction of non-conformities that are reasonably proportional to the scale of development. So that's one of the additional requirements. Just to explain this one, the property has an existing valuable parking lot. The site plan shows that has retained a couple of ADO spaces signed as such. One of the spaces is within the 35 foot setback to the two staff, while I reviewed at my own degree the values in existing parking space. So I think it should be removed from the plan as it can't be considered non-conforming. The parking space is joining the corner street, which obviously do exist non-conforming. So the yard each should identify how it should be removed. The property does have access on route two, which wouldn't be approved under the current bylaws. Bylaws do seek to consolidate material access points on the road such as corner streets. I mentioned that the additional access allows trucks to enter and access the dock without reversible public roads, reducing the extent of overall reversing required to get the loading dock. So I think the DRB should probably discuss this curve cut on route two in Africa, and understanding a truck within the site would also require more patients to park in the dock and introduce additional movers there, or require them entering from another access in the location of the loading dock. The most curve cut is quite extensive. The site shows up in reduced width, and then WBE 13.3, which is talking about access, requires time to demonstrate how pedestrians and cyclists can safely reach the customer entrance. So as mentioned, they're going to be reconfirming the access route to make it safer. So the DRB should, as the chair indicated, discuss safety in parking lot. The official map to the property has been filtered, and that does show pointing to the parcel there. But there's a desired sidewalk on this side of the road. So WBE 13.5, any applicant is supposed to show how they can accommodate this public facility. So we should be at least getting an easement. A good sidewalk in the future days. It would obviously be preferable to be trans-provided that the town should be in a position to do it. In terms of vehicle parking, with a lot of presently used by EECS, as well as road parking, they can testify on their property, and that's not an addition of the discretionary permit approval for them. So in terms of setting the parking requirement, industrial users are diverse, and they're set by the DRB, starting on a point. We don't have a parking standard for limited-service eating places, and similar use is not mentioned in the IT parking generation manual. So I look to that, and I think when it now goes back to the final, it feels like the fast food restaurant is the most compatible, which has 15 spaces per thousand square feet. The applicant has indicated they believe a lower convenience store. Parking standard would be more appropriate. I think the near and far fast food standard is where we should be. So this generates maximum parking requirement for 24 and 20. So I think that's something also for the DRB to discuss, given the flexibility and lack of guidance on the accessory use. The site manager has 15, so if we do decide that there are insufficient parking spaces on site, the joining property number 47 is actually over parked. For the size of building it is, it has five additional spaces. Life standard. So there would be the opportunity for customers to park there. Common sense sort of indicates that we'll do that anyway. So I think the market is expected that they'd be willing to agree to a conditional. The applicant is not going to be able to park them all, so we can't strive it. It's help circulation, reducing the access onto car streets to help find parking spaces. Marking our individual parking space, the main space with signs or curb stops, areas or some sort of measure. To stop. The grass setback to. It is an accessory use and those are permitted in the bylaw. We're good to produce or distributed from the same building as the principle use that applies in the industrial zone districts. The meeting place is not allowed to exceed 30% of the floor area of 2000 square feet. It's going to be 1200. The social use doesn't mean it's all meant to the principle use. And they are limited to distribute it. So, all that essentially is they can't bring in this to then sell on. So it's recommended. Mission is quite cool and demonstrate everything is going to be contained. That's how I saw the PRB is going to be discussed. In terms of landscape buffers. The landscape and buffers itself. We wouldn't recommend. Require that as you know experience landscape. The process. And then there are four on the frontage. Non post value access, which is looking. The. Frontage is constrained by utilities. But I think there is the opportunity to at least make some sort of effort by getting one additional street tree and corner to help alleviate the problems. Access. With more trees. So that's. I wanted to explain the menu points. I'll let me. Okay, great. Thank you, Simon. Okay, Richard and Bob, if you would take it from here and walk us through the project and anything you can add to what Simon staff report would be great. Sir. I'll start right at the very beginning with an update that not only were the DPW comments received, but the issue at hand was installation of a meter at 23 commerce. One year was installed today. So issues that were raised by Mr. or related to the unaffiliated building have been addressed. So that's taking care of. In terms of the parking, the space closest to where it's sort of a metal to removing that on final plan. That is not an issue. The other piece of parking related to the commerce street set back the existing parking obviously the actual electric cane knows this parcel, and you can actually see it on the map includes 21 and 23. And then the adjacent building to the south, and then the long building for that so you can see that the parcels relatively square shape and contains those three separate buildings, which have multiple uses and so those those parking spaces are existing. We certainly would like to retain those. The question would be if the applicant is required to eliminate the spaces that are within the commerce street set back with that also mean eliminating the spaces on the adjacent parking lot, the very specialties building within that zone also. That would be a question for you all. But again, the applicant would like to retain those spaces as they are pre existing in the scope of what's being proposed here. Let me just back up a little bit. No site changes really are proposed. The majority of the work that's being proposed is within the building. You can actually see on the site plan there's two tones within the long segment of 21 that's parallel to two. And the lighter tones the warehouse zone, the darker tone is the 1200 square feet where the proposed limited service eating area would be located. That's the breakdown of that of that existing footprint for the building. So our plan does show the limitation that 30 by 40 foot zone in the front of the existing bill. As staff knows that there's a ramp that leads would provide access to that portion of the building that will be renovated as a part of this work but other than that. There's no site work proposed majority of this work is to be interior to the building of the existing building. And as noted the building right now is being used as a warehouse space for the ice cream manufacturing, which happens a little farther south on commerce on the parcel directly adjacent to this one back to the south. And as you go through, can you get you back up and just give us a rundown on what your plans are for your retail operation. You know, you're an ice cream sale. Right. What are you going to do? What are you going to, what are you going to send us ice cream? We're going to our primary focus is going to be ice cream. We're going to do our flavors there do the research and development do tastings for our new flavors there. So coffee may want to sell donuts or crumpets. That's still a thing. But our primary focus is going to be ice cream in some fashion, whether it be pies or cakes, pints, single serves. Pretty much it. So this is this is your ice cream building. No, the ice cream manufacturing facility is in the old ice cream manufacturing facility. Oh, right now. Okay. Yes, the very next parcel to the south. So to answer your question, no hamburgers no hot dogs. Not that I have anything in the facility that I own will never serve. Hot dog ice cream. So I mean, are we talking like a sliding window, take out window kind of a thing or is this going to be a walk through the door, go up to the counter, get your ice cream. Are there any tables inside or are people going to be getting their ice cream and sitting on the portrayal or. So our, our thought is is that they're going to come in they'll either get scooped ice cream or buy a pint or a cake or pie and and meet their scooped ice cream and maybe have a couple of tables couple three tables inside and then the rest of us just pick up and leave. So it's mainly a summer time. Then you sound like it'd be open all year long but I would assume that the majority of your business would probably be done in the summer. Yes. I'm guessing. And at least tractor trailers or truck trucks that have been coming up to this. So there are 10 wheelers that are backing up right now. Or six, six, six and 10 wheelers there has been. We have accepted some deliveries that are tractor trailers. And what will these deliveries occur during during the store hours open. Unfortunately, we can't dictate that but probably between nine and five I would assume most of them. And that's weekdays weekdays. Yes. It's very limited to me when we buy supplies they come in so it's not like, you know, it's not like a tractor trailer even a week. It's usually a month, one a month maybe two. One or two tractor trailers a month. That's it at your, at your distribution center warehouse door. I think that the extension of the majority of the trucks are the six and 10. Yeah. Yes. And we're also the facility to the south is the one that ice cream is manufactured. And that's where the whole sale stuff goes out. Okay. How many employees will you have in the warehouse and that's only four. People that would be in the store selling to you. Yeah. And those employees would actually park elsewhere. There's, as you can see in the overview of the law there's multiple places even beyond bearing specialties. Additional parking where employees can be and not utilize the spaces for this facility. So as long as we're talking about trucks now in the plan is up now would be a good time to look at that. Williston Road entrance. As we had mentioned the staff, currently the trucks can enter, pull into the parking lot and make one backing river into the loading dock. But on Williston Road were closed. The trucks would have to stop on commerce, and then back across traffic into the, into the parking area, and then back the full length of the parking area it's about 120 feet to the dock face. And so currently the, the same as we were from both on road traffic and circulation in the parking lot is that trucks can pull in and back immediately into the docks. So you want all the land behind the building to though right to know where the trucks could drive in past the unaffiliated building and do a three point. Back on your property in that corner. And then you wouldn't have a fork with operator have to sit down that hallway. I don't follow where are you saying the dog remains. No, you move your dog. Put your dock on the backside of the building so you don't have any customers wandering around where you got trucks backing in. Yeah, there's a, it only takes a fraction of a second to take out someone walking in a parking lot, especially if it's a kid house training on ice cream instead of a truck backing up. Yeah, there's a pretty significant great great back to that building. We have to do probably a six only a six foot elevation rise, I would guess to get a four foot dog back there. We wouldn't have any customers back to get run over just let you know. Yeah, and that would create obviously more pervious surface and changes to the site. With regard to storm water and addressing new impervious services. Well that was pretty, what is that that factor that was like hard to play anyhow scratch that's pretty impervious hard to play in the rain. It's all behind the building is is is grass. If you, if you look at, can you, Andrew or Simon can you pull up Google Earth please and take a look at that because when I, when I looked at it, it didn't look like there was grass there. Well we also, excuse me for anything we just put in a sewer line. So, if it's recent that you went over and looked at it. We just put in a new sewer line that ran from the rain across that property so it could still look somewhat there but it's grass. I didn't, I didn't do a site visit I just wanted to go over. You the landowner. I am your. My overarching concern is. I love the concept. I love the concept here. I really do. You know a neighborhood ice cream place. It's a great auxiliary use. I'm just, I'm really concerned about safety of people that are going to the shop. That's my that's my overarching concern. I can assure you it's, it's, it's crash. There you go. There, there's three. Yeah, there's pre installation of the, of the sewer. What you're seeing is the sewer went diagonally across the back of the building and. Okay, there you go. So all of the disturb you can actually see the line of the sewer. Okay, so that, so that was during the sewer line in stone. Okay. Okay. Let me keep moving here. With regard to the staff comments. So, and, and just leaving this particular item. One of the things under the parking guidelines in chapter 13 is that prohibition about backing into public road so obviously a backing movement on a public road. I think this envisions parking directed off of public road, but obviously the regulations frown on vehicles backing while doing parking maneuvers. So, again, with this configuration as it exists and has existed for some time. I think the best service the parcel as envisioned under the application. And I did a search of the B trans accident records and there are no accident records shown on their database for this facility, either commerce or within this area. I think the staff also mentioned site distance requirements and site distance here on most of both at this drive and commerce are excellent in both directions. The next is the discussion of the official zoning map and other regulatory maps. Currently, and you can actually see this in this plan from the edge of the existing most or a pavement to the right of way is at a minimum 15 feet. And again, if you may recall, you can actually see it in the plan here that the portion of the pavement of the travel the way closest to the edges of bicycle lane so we've got vehicular travel lane a bicycle lane. And then 15 feet from there to the right of way line. And so because of the bicycle lane and what's proposed under the town plan is a pedestrian sidewalks that be a five foot wide concrete walk was 15 feet available to locate that. So under 30.5.3, you know, we're required to show that that the project could accommodate the plan public facility, which in this case is a five foot walk. And we believe there's plenty of space existing within the existing right of way to construct the intended. Moving on to parking. Mr miles and I've had several conversations about parking. I think what's been proposed here in terms of the condition for shared parking makes good sense the applicant is willing to do that. So I think the staff note and recommendation to require that the adjacent parking lot being utilized as part of the overall parking count is sort of the workable. And, and that's mentioned probably very realistic. One second. What's what's in the currently in the little, but we'll have section of that building. Nothing, nothing. You're, you're just useful. We're getting it right. Okay. So that lightest color is currently just storage. Could you show the, could you show the shop over there and get the and use the parking lot for SAC supply. Um, so there was a thought, but the way that that building is set up it has a small footprint and then it goes underneath the building and it's only got limited headroom so it's kind of missed out. It's come just comes back to the safety issue. I have, I have a big concern with trucks backing up with little kids running around. And bicycles and bicycles. If that's going to be the biggest hole, we can move the, the, the tractor trailers to the 87 commerce and move them off from this building. It's not so much the tractor trailer. It's just, it's the, you know, it's the box trucks. Yeah, so the, those trucks would be first thing in the morning. That wouldn't be that's not all day. That's a little bit in the morning and go. So those are your, they're your delivery trucks or something you contract with you control. You control that. Yeah. So notice why those trucks are operating. You can actually have that store closed. Since you only have four employees and I'm assuming quite a bit of them would be involved in making sure the trucks that load to get out of the room. Most of the most again most of the loading will be taking place at 87 commerce street anyhow. So this building here for the warehouse portion would be containers and and containers and some supplies. And we can move that to me take delivery of that stuff to 87 and then we're going to structure carry on or whatever. Is this building refrigerated. The 21 comer. Yeah, no, no. So one that's refrigerated and hard to be good. Is that the old creed ice building. Yes. Okay. And that is refrigerator. Yes. Yeah, this one's the old hazmat building across the street. That's not the one that they're talking about putting the stuff in. This is the old hazmat. This is the chief soul. Yes, that's correct. Yeah, this is the old. Well the chief had the smaller section that we're just using your story. Can I ask. So, so we haven't, we haven't quite gotten there yet. I don't have a public comment, but you know, absolutely have an opportunity. So, just, just sit tight for a moment if you would. Thank you. I'm confused if this building has no refrigeration and how are you storing ice cream. And they, which building in the 21 commerce. We're just storing ice cream supplies. Yeah. So many of them take it from there to the. Down the street. Correct. So it's to me like you need to knock everything down and put up one building. I could afford it. I would. I sure would. You saving up money just in trucking the stuff back and forth between your book, you know, you're both here through building. There's a diesel tax to consider the state. So, so one of the concerns that I have about limiting activity to. To, you know, delivers to non retail times. Is that that becomes a burden for planning and zoning to police. And I'm not, I'm not saying that I wouldn't consider that. I just, you know, planning and zoning only has. Only has so many man hours to. And so I just, I'd like to explore other ways to do this where we can. You know, planning and zoning does not become the compliance agency to make sure that there aren't deliveries during retail hours. I would say that you want to make that a good thing. This is that. I think, I think you understand where I'm going without it. It's, it's, it's does a burden to put on planning and zoning that I would prefer not to do. If the, if the Wilson road curb cut is eliminated, then it's self-regulating. Like you can't get the big trucks in there. I think I think the admin is already has already conceded that the big trucks don't can can go elsewhere. So I think the curb got to Wilson road is probably going to be a condition that we, a condition of approval that we eliminate that is where I suspect the board will end up on that. So the other way to reconfigure this, this is probably for Richard is there a way to reconfigure the parking lot. So that there is. Oh, I kind of draw it without drawing. All point. So, yeah, thank you. Great. Maybe went over here with a little bit of an expansion. Thank you and then did parking all along this side. Eliminating this access and create barriers here. This be a delivery plane. And this be parking. And they're separated. You know, maybe ballers with a with a pressure treated. Two by 12 on, on wood posts, and you are something like that. Well, they could have the trucks come in the next way. Turn towards two way in the parking lot square up and back in each time. So I'm going to make it make a point that this board generally does not like to design people to project. I get you. I'm trying to take the temperature. I'm not. I'm going to make I'm trying to take the temperature of your willingness to come back with something I don't want to design it. That's not what I do is not my role. Richard, you're far better at that than I, but I, I'm just, I'm just throwing a concept out there to see if you think there's some some merit to continuing this and coming back with a with a reconfigured parking lot. So the ballard idea, we already have separating the 20, 21, 23, the barring. I'm aware of that. Yeah. And I just. Rick is the engineer but I don't know that there's enough room to move that in. You've got you've got the baller separating 21 versus 23. No, 20. I'm not going to get the number right, but you've got the baller separating the two bills. Yes, that is right now kind of one big open lock right. So do you see the baller directly shown on the on the plan. Yeah, you can actually see the line of ballers between the essentially the ground parking lot and the ground parking lot. I mean, is it is it. Here I am designing is right here. You know, if, if the route to entrance was closed, and you still have to curve cuts on cars, where a truck can pull in on the sec side and loop around, and then back up into your loading dog at 21. There's enough room there to find parking. You know, kind of kind of killed two birds here. I thought about that. Well, there still would be, you would still have the same truck movement. You know, you would that's right. Even even with a full 180 return of a fixed unit vehicle, you're still going to pull up in the parking lot and they still end up backing that dog. There's, but if we move all of the pedestrian parking than the other side and put violence. So literally once truck driver finishes his turn he's literally backing along the set of hours. So people should not be able to be in that area. It's a little safer. I think, I think where we're heading here is that is that we continue this and we let the applicant. Think about ways to you've heard our concerns. We've hosted design projects. And what what little design info we are providing was just in the spirit of of trying to be helpful. And we're not we're not, I will speak for the group. No one here is opposed to the concept. We're just trying to do it in a safe way. I really like getting the bigger vehicles to that other building. And and so that's the overarching concern that that I think if if I'm not if I'm not capturing this guys then interject. I would would like to yield the floor to this patient woman if you would identify your your name please for the record and asking questions that you have. And my name is Denise Kessler. I'm a neighbor of yours. Hi. Hi. Just want to set the tables that make sure the mic. So my, my staff is very excited about the opportunities that you're bringing. I watched traffic, for example, today all day out my window from affectionately cats. And there's tractor trailers back across the road loading vehicles. And I'm just wondering pictures out there. When you go down to ice cream companies older building with a 10 wheel tractor trailer. How would you maneuver like, would you pull in what they'd be pulling in straight on. Is that parking lot behind there big enough for them to turn around. So the car holders that were in there today was normally in there today tomorrow. And I don't suspect anymore. Yeah, I don't know I'm just watching what's going on there were there yesterday too and they kind of been there for months I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on in the behind the creation building or anything. Well, so it's too far concerned one is just all of a sudden there's tractor trailers which of course I have not been forming parking. Right. And so it gets kind of tight ish when they're parked there. Conversation so I'm picturing, you know, a lot of tractor trailers go down but they go all the way down, right, whatever they're going to so. Yeah, so if your tractor trailers can turn around behind the old ice cream company building great. Nobody's backing up to know that I didn't. Absolutely. So this being a pretty nice building where we currently need to factor ice cream right here. So the tractor trailers have plenty of room to come in our parking lot is to just be a moment. But if you went back to the Google image you'll see what you're looking for. There you go. So, so here's affectionately that color straight so yes there's plenty room and what the truck should be doing is pulling in straight backing up to the loading dock here, and then when they exit they can turn here and go out. And the more the more experience the drivers are with our location, the more they're finding. There's a way to do it system pull straight in here back up and then do the turn. We've got all this parking all the way down here. Yeah, thank you. There's a trucking companies all the way at the end of their. Yeah, so. Yeah, yeah, lots of products, right. And the excavator and yeah. Okay. So, what, so please provide the applicant would please provide me feedback on my suggestion of continuing this. And you've, you've heard our, our concerns about about safety. And yeah, we'll talk about but I want to hear your thoughts on that specific suggestion. We sit here tonight, I have no problem knowing how few trucks that we actually have going there. I have no problem stipulating that we'll just move the trucks down to the to the where the ice creams manufacturer. And kind of eliminate that concern. What about the box trucks. We would limit the box trucks to before we open, and there would be, it wouldn't be any more than probably one or two a day. Because we're still going to, we still have our supplies in that building so in order to, despite how big your facility is you'll be seeing a bigger facility, and I agree with gentlemen, Mr Riley about one big building and, but in this case we don't have that and so we, we would still have to use the 21 commerce or storage. Yeah. We just, we wouldn't have any trucks in there during the operating hours of the, of the ice cream sale. Okay Richard you were methodically going through the staff report and I derailed you on sorry. So, so let us continue on that. So, now I'm on the portion of this staff report relating to bicycle parking and trip facility so just to recap where we were at the parking. The applicant is willing to have a condition that says parking the show and plus overflow parking at the various specialties lot as a condition is accepted. So, in terms of bicycle parking on a plan. Certainly going to show the calculated to parking spaces. Mr Miles has provided calculations showing that the end of trip facility is required based on the calculations. I don't follow that map but it's a moved point, because Mr Lake is willing to install end of trip facilities, whether they're required or not were you going to put in a customer bathroom or anything like that. There you go. Yeah. So, put a lot put a locker in a shower or something like that and right you can put it as a way to work. Of course have to keep it within the 1200 square feet and that's the area. Anyway, as I say, move point is to do that. And I will actually contact you Mr Miles about that because I see in the conditions of approval that the final plan should show in full calculation tables. And so I just need to touch base with you how you got from two parking spaces to the end of trip facility calculation so I can show that correctly. Yeah, the answer tends to be everything was grounded out. Yeah, and so not to take up the time here but I, my calculation is point to five is the is the end result, which rounds to not one. So anyway, you and I can have that conversation and say it's a bit of a move point. Mr Lake is willing to provide that facility so let's move on. As mentioned before I just want to be on the record that this space is 1200 square feet. It is less than 30% maximum or this portion of the building that's affiliated with the use that it's attached to, and less than 100 square feet. So it meets both of those guidelines under under the requirements of chapter 17. So one of the comments was that a full floor plan to be identified. As a part of the application stating that all of the facilities related to this limited food service eating facility would be within that orange or orange area. And so my question at this point is, how much of more information you need to show conformance with the rules, beyond that, all of the facilities related to this use would fall within that. I don't believe we need anything further. There was, there was, there was no way with the information that we had. Did the RV understood the scope of what you were trying to do in that space, but you've you've since explained that so. Okay. Let's move on. So we concur with the staff. The existing buffer that is presently on the site to the next door neighbors residential use is very significant where our buffer does not meet the standards is to our south to the ice cream manufacturing plant facility. And so we do concur with staff that requiring a buffer between this particular parcel in the ice cream manufacturing parcel is, is, is not warranted. So that loses on the street trees. There are some points out where there are no trees at this point there are some conflicts, and that actually shows very well on the staff report, the limitation of overhead utility line, and then the eight feet from the municipal sewer system. And at this point, the area adjacent to commerce falls within the site triangle. And so I'm, I'm assuming that where an additional tree will be located will be on the eastern side of the existing drive, just beyond the point where we can get outside of that eight foot set back from the sewer will probably be from that. So, so certainly could plant a tree within that zone as long as we don't run a file of the site vision triangle regulations and I have been this is a question for for you gentlemen. I was looking for dimensions, both in the public work standards and in these regulations and actually can find a dimension for that zone vision triangle. But I have to place one there, we don't want to follow that regulation. I pull out of there quite frequently as those a lot of people and putting anything in that triangle I think would create a site distance issue. As much as it irritates the crap out of me that everybody's, or a lot of the tractor trailers cut the curb and are upon the grass as it is. You're pushing more people are you pushing farther out into commerce street so it just will be considered I'll play in the tree if that's a requirement but I would get you go down there and come off that come off commerce on the wheels then you'll see you can see the better off you are and I'm seeing the tree might go where in the vicinity where we're going to remove that one accessible parking space. That's, that's, that's where I envision it. So, again, happy, happy to add a tree in that location in the finals. Can somebody just on on the map here just kind of put a better indication of where the existing trees are. We were to the last tree. We put trees in the setback. We require freezing the setback. I think I think the word would be allow. Because the question I asked is I'm looking for where the setback is long front of building and literally put a tree in. There's the tree was that we put planted right next to the building to be on their property and not somewhere in the setback where someone that come along said they got to remove it because they want to fill around the setback. That's the right way. Street trees are sometimes in the setback, which is a different thing. That's what that's what we're managing. We wouldn't have fun on any of the trans white one. That's not our land. And there's fish and space and again, we go back to Google or you can actually see there for for very mature trees that are directly in front of the building, kind of halfway between the building edge of pavement. Again, you can probably see that. Or street. We'll look at that but please continue. All right. That brings me to the end of the staff notes. Any questions. We talked about the calculations to be shown. The one comment I would make on the conclusions of law. The text is written final plan to conclude a floor plan demonstrating the area. The place is not exceed 30% of 2,000 square feet. And I believe that word should be or but this may be a move point based on the fact that he doesn't sound like you're going to need more. Yeah, that should be or. Yeah. I think that my analysis comments that we have based on the staff notes who appreciate their performance. Okay. Mr. Hello, you've been patient. Yeah, I was, I think there were some hundreds. Oh, yes. Okay. Joseph, you would like to unmute yourself if you're able. Hello. If you would state your address for the record, please. 5325 Williston Road. My driveway is directly across from the curb cut. And my concern about the curb cut. With this. New business enterprise. Is that that curb cut only be entrance only. That access only be off route to and no egress onto route to. Because currently we have traffic that is competing with commerce traffic. Begin a shortcut across the parking lot to. To beat. To beat the traffic and. Yeah. Going back, I don't want to be the dead horse on the curb cut or the parking and access. But that is one of my concerns. Understood. Thank you. Anything else. Not really. I mean, the hours of operation assume. We'll be terminating by nine, 10 o'clock at night. Yeah. Yeah, the applicants said yes. Okay. And is there a proposal to pave that parking lot in the future? Because it's a lot of dust that comes out of there. I'm reluctant to pay it just because you got. It gets so payments hot. And it's so I'm. I would look for an alternative to paving it. But at the moment now. Currently there is no plan to pave. The parking lot. Okay. All right. That takes care of me. Okay. Thank you, Joe. You're welcome. Okay. Any other. Members of. Participants members of the public for fitting and zoom. With raised hands. Not seeing hands. Okay. Okay. DRV members. Questions. I'm not sure that there's space, but are you thinking of any outdoor picnic table or anything like that? Outdoor seating anywhere. Not. Right. And I just think like John mentioned earlier, this probably will have kids on bicycles coming and that there was some way to, um, when you do locate that bicycle rack or however you do it. If there was some way to kind of incorporate directing that pedestrian traffic in the same way. So that would probably make sense for me. Right. I anticipate where the bicycle rack would go. We'll be very close to the end of the ramp, which again is not location about where the accessible spaces will be removed. So, um, because the. The accessible spaces that are set up now are van accessible. Well, we've removed the one space that van accessible zone. And that accessible zone will be the pedestrian pathway clear, always clear, to gain access to the ramp zone, ramp area, and that the bicycle, I anticipate the bicycle rack to be right at the head end of that accessible zone that will get you to the sidewalk. So that you would go right and park your vehicle, your bicycle, yeah, yeah, right near the building and right pretty much at the base of the access to the perfect ice cream system. John, anything? I just want to reiterate, just like you, my primary concern here is safety. I recognize that, you know, you put us in a square in a gray area here and we're attempting to define what's proportional to the scope of the improvements you're making. I do feel that access so close to Commerce Street is not very safe. It's nothing that we would allow typically. I do think there must be a better site plan. One of the things that was mentioned was to make that Wilson Road access entry only, which is an interesting concept and one that the applicant is willing to embrace that would reduce the width of the curb cut. It would mean that traffic circulation would be predictable at that access point because only traffic would be entering, no traffic would exit there and all traffic would exit to the intersection of Commerce and Wilson Road. How does that solve the problem of people cutting the corner? Well, in terms of cutting the corner, the cutting of the corner that occurs now is someone exiting from Commerce seeing vehicles stacked trying to make a left and they're cutting the corner this way. If this is entrance only. It sounded like listening to Joe, listening to Joe, the other gentleman commented that people are also going in and then cutting through parking lot to Commerce. That was my interpretation of what Joe said. Usually getting on to Commerce is getting off from Commerce. That you would cross two lanes, two opposing traffic to make a shortcut doesn't mean perhaps people are doing it. But obviously with the use that's proposed and vehicles parked in the parking lot this through being narrow to entrance only. It just is less inviting for that type of. But it would still allow the circulation that we discussed in terms of access to the building. All right, any other questions from the DRV. Okay, informal. I want your, I want guidance from my, from my board. I want to continue. Well, we close it. He's going to live with what we decide. I think he would be better. I think you better serve with a continuous. You live with our, you live with what we decide. If we close it, they live with what we decide and they may not. You might, you might not like that. But I think we would have some, I don't think about the guidance that comes out of our discussion. And, and if, if we were to continue. We would have a conversation, we would have a conversation as a board and deliberative session and we would provide staff with, with feedback and you could reach out to staff and, and get further further guidance. On what we're looking for and trying to get you into the next discussion. We decided not after that, right, right. And well, depending upon, it would give you time. It would give you time to refine it. It's not set at the time. But. Nathan. I mean, I would be okay. Either way with today with conditions or continuous. Okay. So you're flexible. You don't have a strong. Conversion. I agree with Nathan and I also, I guess would value your opinion on whether you want to revisit this or do you want us to look at it the way it is. You're, it's your call. I mean, the way I look at this is that the building is existing. The loading dock is existing. The parking lot is existing. And it served multiple uses. In this location. The parking lot is existing. The parking lot has been existing for quite some time. I think the building was built in the 40s over the 50s. So the parking lot configuration. We're really not proposing any changes. To a parking lot that's been existing and functional. Well, there are going to be changes to the parking lot based on the setback. Well, not necessarily. Yeah. Not necessarily. That's something that that's something that we have to decide. Whether it changes our proportionals or what's being proposed. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's a deliberative discussion. Mr. I would disagree with you. I know I understand your point, but I would disagree with you because you are taking a, what amounts to a, you know, a 1940s warehouse and turning it into a, you know, a, you know, a customer friendly walk up like a skateboard. You know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like building an enterprise. So it is changing. Well, and, and I, and I agree that, you know, you've got, you've got a parking lot that exists and a clothing that exists, but they use to change it. And you're asking, you're asking for changes. That's correct. And the only correction I would make is it's a warehouse. Now. Previously it was a manufacturing facility. So just. We're going to assume there weren't any children working in there. We're going to serve. We're going to serve. We're going to serve. It wasn't eating ice cream when it was in manufacturing. Stopped at the 20. Right. Okay. So, so, okay. I'd like the floor. Yeah. Your, your feedback, please. I'd like to see that. I'd like to see the output and put more thought into, into the designer. John, I'd like to see. Okay. So we're going to, we're going to continue this. I'm not agreeing with continuing. But I'm, I'm one voice. I'm just the master of ceremonies here. Not the desire. And so. So we're going to continue this. How much time do you need? Well, That's the crux of what he'd like us to focus on. We're going to, we're going to. We're not going to, we're not going to compile our comments. And I thought before I'm going to do that. And deliver a session. Any further comments that we have. We've been talking. Any further comments that we have? We've provided you a fair number already. Absolutely. I think you get the gist of it. But we'll be talking with Simon Hill, take notes, you can talk to him in the morning. But we're looking for an updated site plan. It's really what we're looking for. With safety and what? With an overarching theme of safety. With knowledge that we're really looking for, updated site plan, how much time do you need to do that? When is your next hearing or when is the next? What's the deadline for the 24th? The 24th, I think we probably need it by the Tuesday 19th. The end of the day, the very latest. And then the next meeting is on February 14th. So can you provide an updated site plan by the 19th? Or do you want to go out to the February 14th meeting? I'd like to get into January. You're not going to be on the slope anymore. Yeah, I think we can. I think we can make that next meeting. So we'll be looking for a revised plan by the 19th. That's Google. Certainly including the things that we've been talking about. So are there still just two other items on there? Yes. OK, so we're going to continue this until January 24th. This has been a very productive conversation. And I thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you very much. So we have the Zoom meeting. Oh, OK. Great. We'll call on just one moment as the people who came here. So we don't have time to analyze. So it was this meeting that you found out about. I don't know if that's what I was talking about. Hi, Doug, if you would state your name and address for the record, please. Sure. Doug Viman, GVV Architects, 284 South Union Street in Burlington. And sorry, I was late. I was at another hearing, ran a little late. It's no worries. We just changed the order. It's all good. OK, staff goes next. Simon. This is a Master's time planner. One on five on this drive, which might be called a meeting that you approved last year from version two. The installation of a new loading dock. That's so safe. You have been changed to a warehousing. So you're posting six wall signs and three standing sign. They need Master's time plans. It's going to be multi-tenanted. And the signs are larger than the 24 square foot on wall signs and 30 square foot on three standard signs. So we are providing you to agree this application with the special recommendations and findings of this graphic design. I mean, well, but I get sent that it haven't been signed in sales and by the details of the plan. Thank you, Simon. OK, Doug, do you have anything to add to that? No. Let the application stand as is. OK, great. Thank you. All right, that's a great strategy. I'm sorry. Well, it says three standing sign, 32 square feet. But in the female in this area, it says 48 feet. Correct. That's correct. Right, 48 or 32. So if you go to the top of the column of the 32, this is maximum allowable size without a master sign plan, is 32 square feet. They are asking for a master sign plan. So they are allowed to exceed that. And they're proposing 48 if they get approval of a master sign plan. Oh, we're going to get it. Is that right, Doug? Yeah, that's correct. The only way to exceed the size standards for those signs is to get a master sign plan. Right. Otherwise, you're restricted to 32 square feet. So that's the whole one of the reasons. So where is this? Where is this? I don't see where the three standing sign is. It's on the engine side. It's by the road, bottom right hand corner of the site. Oh, is that that thing that's sort of sitting out there? We're coming in by the left. I'm coming in by the right. It's right where it says three standing sign. You got it. I'm coming in by the tire. The tire is down there. Yeah, this one, down here, Paul. Oh, I'll put it on the screen, so that's all. Oh, there it is. It's on the island. Yeah, this work should be. OK, any other questions? Start the board. OK. Any members of the audience? Mark, will I end? We're going to close DP 23-10 and 820. Thank you guys for coming. Thank you. OK, 820, we're going to go into the Liberty session. Please stop the recording. Recording stopped. Right after you. Right after you, right? No, I'm sorry. Magic. And this is talking to the owls. I don't care today. Like magic. What do they call a pair of owls? What do you call a pair of owls? We had this incredible owl.