 Welcome to Breeders Syndicate, the only cannabis show breaking down the myths and history in cannabis. I'm Matthew, seed maker for over a decade and a half, and this is my journey into finding my truth in this wild world of cannabis. I invite you to join me and the Canaluminati by strapping into the passenger seat. But be warned, it's not always pretty. With the invasion of corporate culture into cannabis, it's getting even more muddy. Which is why I've made it my mission to have a permanent record before all of the history is lost and buried under a pile of cookies. We're the traditional market. The Syndicate is a collection of seed makers that want to push back against all of the smoking mirrors. In doing so, we will continue to ruffle the feathers of those who oppose. And my personal mission has become much bigger than myself. Welcome to the cannabis underground. This is the Revolution. Welcome to Breeders Syndicate. I'm Matt here with Thousand Fold, and today we're going to have our buddy, Ion Lonesome, back for a more expansive, more solo type gig. And I'm really stoked to have him here. I know Thousand is as well. We wanted to do this for a while, and I know it's probably one of our most requested episodes to go back and recover. So thank you for being with us. Yeah, thanks for having me. All right, dude. Thousand. Yeah, so I think today we're just following like a loose, like linear chronological structure. So I think, you know, we start at the start. Ion Lonesome, how did you, what were your first few interactions with the plant? You know, how did you get into that? So I got into it pretty young. As a teenager, we would get, you know, Mexican brickweeds. That was all that was available. I didn't have family doing it, anything like that. So we'd get it. It was always pretty poor quality, but it was loaded with seeds. I come from a farming family, so, you know, I naturally planted seeds pretty much initially, you know, probably within the first year of smoking. I started trying to grow it. It was, it was hit or miss, but I think I had my first harvest when I was about 17 years old. I grew up to Mexican bag seed, got a quarter pound of weed, and I was big dickin' all over high school. I was the coolest dude I knew. What was that like? Well, you know, Mexican back then, it was, it was weird. You would get weed that was dried like shit, wasn't cured, either cured in a tire, crossing the border, you know, it was just hit. Got awful quality in the finished product, but you'd plant the seeds and, you know, you would get, you'd get interesting stuff. The problem with a lot of the Mexican bag seed is that it would have intersex issues outside even. I don't know. I think it was just part of the genetics. So that, you know, the first time I grew, it was lightly seeded, and then the next year it was lightly seeded. And I'd occasionally come across some plants that didn't have any intersex issues. And, you know, back then seeds, you know, you couldn't find seeds without ordering them from Amsterdam, which seemed very sketchy at the time. So, you know, pretty early on, I was trying to select four plants that I could grow and have. In terms of like the resources that you had and internet information, like how much did you know about the plant at that point? Like, did you know immediately to look out for males, like that kind of thing? Yeah, you know, I had a little bit of, you know, kind of stone or knowledge from people that had tried to grow. I did have people in my family that grew, but I was a little young for anybody to really share information with me or take me under their wing, you know. So I kind of had a baseline, and luckily I was trying outdoor. So, you know, I didn't have to worry about time, you know, light cycles and all of that. I just kind of let it do its thing and tried to finish it outside. How cool were your parents with you doing all this? Not cool, but you know, when I was a teenager, they kind of had a messy split up. So it was kind of like I could get away with a lot of shit. Perfect timing. Yeah, yeah, and it was kind of at that age for me. So I started with gorilla growing and didn't really do anything outdoor until I moved out or didn't do anything indoor until I moved out. Right when I was able to, 18 years old, and, you know, I wanted to get an apartment so that I could blow it up and grow indoor. That's the reason you wanted to move out, not like to get drunk with your buddies? No, that was my number one motivation. That's awesome. Which you wanted to do for a career. Yeah, yeah, pretty early on what I wanted to do. Would you tell us a little bit about what some of those gorilla grows were like? Yeah, so early on it was pretty much just, you know, I'd get some dry amendments back then, you know, stuff that was readily available, chicken shit. Of course, I would lime it, I'd get blood meal, bone meal, kelp meal, all that stuff. Anything I could get at the feed store without having to go to the city, to the hydra store, and be sketchy. I would get that, I would dig, I would take a couple 15 gallon planters that we had. I would dig holes. Normally I would try to do at least 30 gallon holes. And I would get all the soil out, have a tarp, mix it up with dry amendments, put it back. Didn't add anything for aeration, didn't really know anything about that. But I knew that I needed very fertile soil to make anything happen. So I would use the native soil and just add dry amendments until I thought it was good enough. So very little inputs. I tried, I always tried, because I wasn't one to run any sort of irrigation or anything like that. All of my growing grows over the years. I've tried to do in areas where I had easy access to water. So, you know, near a river, near a pond, near a lake, something like that. Because I was, I was toted it. So it was whatever would be the least work while being somewhat discreet. I had never really thought much about like the gorilla growing aspect and not wanting to go to hydra stores in a lot of outlaw states. But it would make sense why you would have grown up like learning the organic amendments and all that stuff versus having to go risk your ash or your face at a hydra store. You know, take multiple cars on your way back. Yeah. Well, yeah, it was just, it was what was available at the time. I could either, you know, I could get miracle grow or I could get dry amendments and do it like I was, you know, trying to grow a badass tomato plant around me. A lot of people grow tomatoes. You know, my family did that growing up and it was kind of a similar technique that I was using. Do you prefer to make like cherry tomatoes or heirloom big beefy ones? Um, dude, I have so many. Eating it is that's for eating. Probably like a cherry tomato. Same. Yeah, unless I'm doing like a BL if I'm doing a BLT, you know, I got to have a big. Yeah, of course. For me, like you talk about moving out, how, how quickly did you get your hands on other kinds of genetics? And so I, the first couple of times I tried to get seeds. I would, I dealt with seed banks that I think I dealt with Mark Emery. Pretty early on, sent money to Canada was, you know, a hope and a dream and didn't get shit and had a kind of follow up pretty similar. I didn't really start getting anything until I went to the Dutch, you know, or the UK. I get stuff that was reasonably cheap, Nirvana, Casey Brains, that kind of stuff. A little bit of sensey, but ordering it through seeds direct or one of those, you know, guys in the UK. So I didn't really start with that until until I moved out. And that was, I think, I was going to say, yeah, that was about when I found Overgrow. So I kind of had a little bit more knowledge as to what I wanted as, you know, what I could finish. All of that. And I get, you know, I'd get cheaper stuff like Nirvana and Casey Brains for my Outdoor Grows. And, you know, if I was going to do some stuff inside where I could back up plants, I would splurge a little bit and get a cheap pack of sensey seeds or something. Casey Brains for the Outdoor Win. Yeah, that stuff was solid. I wish I still had some. Well, yeah, I wanted to ask you about that too. Because Matt does have a bunch of questions for you about the forums. But before that, I do want to ask, out of these early packs, what were some of the highlights that you remember? I liked the Casey 36 a lot. That did really well Outdoor here. Just good. I mean, you know, looking back on it, it was all very justified. You know, all the Nirvana stuff seemed like it was a skunk one cross. Their Durban poison, I did a lot. I really liked. Their White Rhino, I grew a bit indoor and really liked that for the potency. The flavor didn't do much for me with White Rhino, White Widow, any of those whites. But the potency was there. So that kind of stuff, really the first seeds that I grew and I really was kind of head over heels for them were some free seeds I got from Evergrow from there's a guy JLP that would give away seeds. And I grew a bunch of his lines over the years, you know, you just be an active member, send him a message, and he'd send you some free seeds. So he had a couple lines I grew. Romeo and Juliet was one. He had one called Phoenix Haze that was like a Neville's Haze, Super Silver Haze, which was really good. Yeah, that was in the Afro Pips Senegal Haze at the Phoenix Haze. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, that was an awesome plant. I love that. It was, you know, pretty heavy on the Neville's Haze. I think it was something like, you know, when the Dutch groan got busted and the seeds were collected and so they were either Neville's Haze or Neville's crossed to Super Silver Haze and he inbred it from there. And it was just, there were some phenomenal plants in those. Yeah, Petamore, right? JLP? Yep, John Lee Petamore. Yeah. At the forums, did you already have, did you already get the name Heinelandsup? When did you come to that name? That name, I didn't use it on overgrow. I wasn't as active on overgrow. I was kind of pretty sketched out by it. I had a different handle. But when I, when that went down, I kind of freaked out for a little bit. You know, I thought everybody's getting busted and all that. And then when I signed up for ICMAG, I was really into bluegrass music at the time. And, you know, the highlands and sound, that was something that, you know, that's the way people describe the sound of Stanley Brothers, which is, you know, kind of first generation bluegrass band from Virginia. And so it's kind of a play on that. That's why I chose it. And, you know, I don't know, in retrospect, I probably could have come up with something cooler, but that's what I got. I think it's pretty cool. It's pretty fucking cool. I don't know. I like that one a lot. That's a good story, too. I forget that, like, bluegrass culture, a lot of it stands for Virginia in that eastern area. Yeah, that's Southwest Virginia. And Kentucky, right? Yeah, Kentucky's the bluegrass state. That's where it kind of all started. But yeah, Kentucky, Tennessee, Southwest Virginia, North Carolina, all that. Very cool. Nice. Matt, did you want to ask about the forums? All right, so we have, we've talked about Overgrowth, talked about ICMAG. Are there any other early forums that you can think of that were kind of influential in your growing experience or, like, online learning experience that we haven't mentioned? The only other one I would say of great significance to me would be Mechanica Banna, which people that were getting frequently banned from ICMAG kind of started going over there. I had a bunch of friends from the forums that were over there, and they kind of turned me onto it. But that was a smaller forum, but a ton of knowledge there, and people that, you know, it didn't have nearly as many, you know, 17-year-old kids showing up trying to find weed. It was growers discussing the real deal, you know. So that one was pretty big for me for years. And then, you know, there were quite a few other smaller ones that I was on, but Mechanica Banna is definitely the only one other than ICMAG that was a major influence on me. Yeah, shout out to D-Man. So, you know, I don't know how much you want to go into this part, and it's up to you. I can write it down if not. I wrote down early friends and allies on the forums. So, like, early friends, people you met that were influential to your whatever at the time. You know what I mean? Like, anybody who stands out early on? Yeah, I had quite a few. There were a couple of local guys. I don't know how active they are nowadays, and I don't know if they would want me saying their names. Well, you know, there were a few. Like, I met a local guy who went by stretch puppy on the forums. He was a good friend of mine. We became pretty close, and we shared a lot of genetics and, you know, we both learned quite a bit from each other. We hung out a bit. He was a bit north of me. He grew some really cool stuff. We shared a ton of genetics, and yeah, he was just a cool guy. He was blowing it up back then in an area where I probably wouldn't have. That's gangster. But he's the first guy who showed me the Fairfax Four Way. Oh, wow. And he was getting bags of it, but he couldn't get to cut. It was held down. We didn't know the right people. And he actually bought some packs of the Nirvana Four Way, and he popped a pack, and he found a dead ringer of the plant. It was incredible. It was just a phenomenal plant. It was very similar to some of that rubber city stuff. Oh, wow. The way the heads work, the way the heads develop on the plants. It was a hell of a line. I wish I had ten packs of that, you know. No kidding. Back then, it was like, oh, it's just Nirvana. I'll buy the real thing and see if I really want to find a fever. Right, and it'll always be around forever. Yeah. Yeah, and now it's not available. I've reached out to them. They don't have it. Yeah. So, of course. Of course, of course, right? Yeah, no, that's interesting. You mentioned the Fairfax Four Way. I know since you mentioned it, a lot of people who are going to be watching are going to be VA boys. Do you have any recollections of it, or any sources of how it was back then? I really don't. That was a long time ago. My dad, dude. It was just, this was in the era where most commercially available stuff was Beezers. So it stood out because it was locally grown, high quality. I would imagine so. You know, today it would probably be really cool for me. I'd really get into it, but it doesn't seem like something to be, you know, in a dispensary in Denver. It's not, it's not a modern thing. Last I heard they were cleaning the cut up. I wonder where it's at. It should be through that status now. Be cool to see. Yeah. Post HPLB. Yeah, I'd love to see it. I'd love to, you know, grow it just for like the trip down memory lane. Yeah, we need to connect you guys anyways that dude, that dude from Virginia as well. It's pretty, pretty cool. He's pretty legit. Cool. Yeah. About. Oh yeah, good. I was going to say about that same time, you know, how we would see some other stuff from like the northern part of Virginia. Since he star. I remember that being devastatingly potent the first time I smoked it and, you know, around that time started seeing sourdies will show up and, and that kind of stuff. In Virginia, sour diesel in Virginia. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of, a lot of stuff came down. It's, it's not really that far from New York. Yeah. And certain markets like the DC area, back then, you know, an ounce of sour diesel was $600. So, I mean, it was, it was very, very marketable. And so, you know, that started showing up. I smoked it and was like, holy shit. And luckily, I had made some friends through the forums that I could source to cut through. And yeah, I fell in love with that one. I bet that's a game changer, especially for the era and time. Yeah. Shit it. I still smoke it all the time. There's something that I wanted to ask you. And it's kind of a little bit of a tangent, but it's in the same realm. What are some of the other old Virginia clones you can think of that like you'd like to nod to in this episode? There weren't, it wasn't like out west, you know, it was very small circles of people. So, there wasn't, there wasn't a ton of trading. You know, you'd see the Gany from Virginia Beach sometimes, which there were other Gany's in the state that people were growing. There was one in Southwest Virginia that was incredible. But you would see stuff like that. It was mostly cuts of seed lines. Yeah. It wasn't stuff with mysterious origins and all of that. It was Afghanis. There was a Durban poison cut in my area for a while. But mostly the cut game started happening around the time that, you know, the price gouging was going on in Northern Virginia. Yeah. Saturday's a little train wreck, that kind of stuff. It was going for insane money. So people started growing that stuff locally. And catching in pretty much. I can't even imagine seeing train wreck over there for the first time, because it's so vastly different than a lot of the wheat over there. Oh yeah. Yeah, that was, that, when that hit the area, it had, you know, it was on top for years. And that, you know, it was mostly import from Northern California. And, you know, the joke, the joke was always, what doesn't sell in California gets released. So the quality wasn't there, but it was unmistakably train wreck. You could tell. I mean, anybody that's grown it could see it. But man, if you had, if you had a jar of like really nice, well grown indoor train wreck and you cracked that, you would fucking blow people's minds back then. Oh, I bet dude. I bet. So yeah, that was, that was cool. But it was also, you know, in that, that era, you kind of had to watch who you pulled that shit out around. Like, you know, you couldn't go to a party and open a jar of sourdies or a train wreck because then everybody would be like, what is this? Where did you get this? You know, it was. So yeah, it was, it was kind of weird. Cool guy to mark real fast. Yeah. So, you know, it was, it was like when you're going out to the party or hanging out with some friends, you grab a bag of shitty weed that you bought off somebody just to keep a low profile. It was bad. Yeah, that sucks. Yeah. You can't even flash a good shit in front of the chicks. Well, you know, you could, but. Just not in front of everyone else. Yeah, no, for sure. For sure. So, you know, you had to be reserved to make it. Yeah. To make it through the drug war. Yeah, it was great. Power comes great responsibility, huh? Exactly, yeah. Chicks are always the first way dudes get caught anyways now that I think about it. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah. Matt, you had a note here about the infamous Kim 101 thread on ICBS. Yes. All right. Yeah. So can we talk about like some of your, your first experiences with even hearing of Kim, what started that journey into trying to track down the history? Because like a lot, if people aren't aware, like some of my first intros into reading on the forums about like digging into a history was like Kim 101 thread for me. So it's pretty important in my learning and overall how we ended up here at this point overall. So what puts you on that journey? So at that time, you know, I had sour diesel, which there were various theories floating around about how that was related to Kim dog. Yeah. So I had a, you know, Kim dog bag seed cross that I was growing that was, you know, pretty, pretty close to, you know, what a lot of people know is like a Kim D hybrid now. Yeah. So I was trying even pretty much from the jump with Kim dog online. There was a ton of misinformation, a ton of people trying to, you know, get credit for it. So I, I started trying to compile what information was available, talk to the people that were closest to, you know, to the whole thing, the Kim fam guys, I guess they would be called now. Yeah. And try to get kind of a straightforward, you know, just a breakdown of the family and how it was all together. And I was, you know, I was looking at this shit researching it, talking to people every night. And I was like, well, shit, you know, if I'm doing all this, I might as well put it down. So the next guy that wants to know what the fuck's going on, can look it up and figure it out. So after talking to various people, you know, at the time on the forum, you could talk to Joe Bran, you could talk to P Bud, Kim dog Greg was on there. Who else? JJ was on there. A bunch of people that were, you know, relevant in that world were there to, to discuss. So I basically took the information as best I could and, and put it together. You know, looking back on it, there are definitely some flaws in it. But at the time it was the information that was available as well as I could present it. I mean, it's like, it really is still the best information as anybody could present it as given by the people who told it. Yeah, sure. It's accurate to that extent. And that's, that's probably the most important part, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was, it was a cool thread. I, you know, I talked to Inspector a bunch about it. And I remember when I posted it, you know, he came on and I think his first post on the thread was, you know, if you're going to talk about Kim 91, you ought to have a picture of the real one and he posted a picture because the picture that I had used was from Joe, Joe Brand. And it wasn't, it wasn't Kim 91. But at that time, at that time I had no experience with it. It was still a very tightly held cut. So, you know, A for effort, right? Well, I mean, and Joe Brand was the source of the seed. So like him posting a picture of Kim 91, you would assume would be a great source for the picture, you know? Yeah, I mean, yeah, at that time that was, yeah, that's straight from the horse's mouth, you know? Yeah, exactly. No, I, it's always fascinated me to know it puts you on that journey because it's, it's a lot of how we ended up like even here at this point discussing this kind of stuff together now. So it's pretty cool. Yeah. And it's still up. Yeah. Yeah. For someone to come in like me in what, 2019, 2020 and to go and look at that thread is still really remarkable. Yeah. And the number of, like people who are now very notable figures in the community that were in that participating, like that's kind of amazing. It's an artist. Yeah, it was, it was a, it was a smaller world back then. Yeah. And it's still the best place to go look at all the pictures is like the one through four, two, which is still Yeah, absolutely. Hard to find pictures of anywhere, at least the one. Yeah, that was, yeah, that was right after Inspector had run them all. And so he had pictures that he let me use for the thread. And yeah, it was, it was pretty remarkable. I'm still kind of bummed I never got to try the two and the three, but you know, what are you going to do? The two, the two, the two is always interested me because it's bud structure being so uniquely different than all of them, you know, little tiny budlets as opposed to everything else. I don't know. It just always seemed more unique than the rest. Yeah, it was, but I remember Inspector did, he crossed them all to deep chunk. And yeah, Chrome, Chrome ran out the Kim to deep chunk. And there was a plant in there that was like strikingly similar to Kim 91. Wow. And it just, yeah, it at least visually. And that kind of always, you know, I just, I've always thought about that. I know, man. Wish you could have gotten those to pop. Yeah. Is this a good, is this a good time for us to also ask you about what you might consider your first breeding projects, like actual breeding projects? Does that happen in a similar time to the thread? Well, you know, really, I've always kind of done it. I've messed with breeding different Mexicans trying to get away from hermaphroditic plants. Pretty much the second year I was growing. It was something that I always kind of messed with. I found the mail that seemed solid. I would save it. I never had any intentions into really getting into breeding. It was always just kind of something that came with the territory for somebody that was obsessed with weed. And really, the first thing of note I did was, you know, this stuff with PraiseDog and I passed it to some friends that I traded seeds with back then. You know, Vody and I talked a lot on the forums. There were several other people, 40 grit. You know, a bunch of guys that I would just swap some seeds with and, you know, bullshit along. And that was the first, the first thing of note that I ever did. Before that, it was mostly just kind of, you know, I'm going to cross this Mexican to this Phoenix Hayes or I'm going to cross this Mexican to this other one and try to get rid of the hermaphrodite. You know, but, yeah, I would say that's the first thing of note that I really did. What did you do with the trade dog? Or I'm sorry, yeah, trade dog. So at that time, I had a pretty good stable cuts and I was growing growing those seeds from JJ. He and I had traded some stuff and I had some of those seeds. I was growing some of his Nigerian silk back cross. I was growing a few, a few different things at the time and I found a male in the trade dog that I was really impressed with. I was impressed with, you know, the structure of it, the vigor, the, you know, he can be kind of floppy, but it had a really nice rigid structure and so I kept it and there were a number of plants that I really liked, but they were missing certain things. So I basically just hit, you know, hit some plants with it. I hit green crack. I hit purple Urkel. I hit the Kim D and Kim 4 that I had. I hit Abusive Oji Kush. I had an Acapocco Gold that I hit. Just kind of a mixture of stuff and I pretty much gave all the seeds away. I kept a few for myself, but mostly it was just, you know, just giving them to my friends. So for clarity here, what is the Tres Dog? That is a Kim Dog D BX2 the JJ NYC made and I'm not sure if it was, I don't know if the original seedline was released because this was before Top Dog launched. I'm not sure if he, I know he released an N-Cross of it later, but I believe when he, you know, started his company, it was Star Dog is what kind of launched the Kim Wines. If I'm not mistaken. How, so what mail did he use for the Tres Dog? It was a Sensey Seed Anyone? Yep. Yeah, it was the Out Cross. Yeah. Yep. So he used the Afghan one and then and then pretty much copied them and used the Sensey Henry Cush. Yeah. But JJ was the first one to have a Kim T-E type seedline. You know that, like going back I got to give him props on knowing to use Afghani one or type of plant like that to back cross or to use in back cross like that. Like looking back at how many people have made epic fails of back crosses, like that's actually probably a pretty good choice to use in that. Yeah, he did a great job with it. I, you know, I had that male plant that I kept for a little bit and then I had a female from it that was phenomenal as well. It was like it was like it had the Kim D potency but it was a little bit creamier like it's most reminiscent to me of like if you grow Kim D outside it's still it's still really funky but it has this kind of sweet creaminess to it especially as it starts to cure a little bit and that came through pretty strong on the trace dog. But yeah it was a great line. I hit it to a bunch of stuff and yeah some of it got kind of popular. Yeah, the dog's waltz, notably the poodle nuts cut. Now that was found by 40 grit. Yeah, 40 grit, 40 ounce grown out. He had a bunch of names on the forums. He, so he was a good buddy of mine that I met through either over grower, I see Mag and he was like the first dude that was like blowing up warehouses and posting pictures of it. He was growing a warehouse of Urkel in the Bay Area and just crushing it. His Urkel is the best that I ever smoked. It was incredible he just nailed it but he was always looking for for something that grew faster because if you're doing lights and lights of Urkel the edge time is for fucking ever. So when I was making this seeds I had an Urkel and I was like, you know what, I'm going to pollinate that one just for my boy 40. I sent him a bunch of seeds and he popped them and yeah, he found that cut that he called the poodle nuts and it still flows around. Yeah, I remember my first encounter with that was with a bunch of the Colorado people. I noticed it getting really big in Denver when the Denver Medical Team came on board and I know what's his name. Tierra Rojo he was blowing it up with that thing and that's when I was like, God what is this? Because it was super unique looking and like to me it's and you'll probably hate that I say this but it reminds me of like something as unique and different looking would have been at the same time like looking at them how different they both look from normal standard but around it could have easily caught on the hype of that in my opinion and you know, like it was almost going in that direction in Denver. It just never quite got the cookie smash. Yeah, it was unique. Yeah, there were several guys in Denver that grew it. It still has still has a pretty good reputation there. I actually I went to a dispensary a year or two ago and I was meeting a friend that ran the dispensary and he was telling the people in the shop, I mean this is the guy that did Dog's Waltz and they were all like, oh man you know I was like, damn man I've got two questions here. So just to be clear that the Dog's Waltz is Urkel by TresDog. Is that right? Yes. Okay and would this be, would you consider this the moment where you were starting to get exposure for the first time? No, I wouldn't say that because it was still you know, it was forum exposure. It wasn't like it was it wasn't like it was winning a cup or anything like that. It was you know the people that I already knew and respected all that I made something that was cool. So it was more like just getting the respect of my peers and people that I looked up to. The moment that I kind of I guess became infamous in the cannabis world was when Bode started using the Appalachia stuff. Is it time for us to talk about the Appalachia? I mean we might be one thing before that and you can correct me if I'm wrong but the Skunk Magazine sub-cool retraction was that for Appalachia? Yeah when he published Kim 101 in Skunk Magazine. Yes. That was kind of wild to me because you know at the time I was just a dude that had a couple lights in his house and did some gorilla grows and you know just some dude and I'd go to the bookstore and pick up the weed magazines every once in a while because you know I wasn't getting that shit in the mail and I picked it up one day and started reading and I was like god damn this is word for word my thread for my CMAG. That's kind of fucked up I wasn't the biggest fan of him anyway so it kind of rubbed me wrong so I remember looking up the email for them and I emailed them and linked them to the thread and they were of course super apologetic and they were like we're going to dock him on the next article and we're going to send you the amount and it was something ridiculous it was more it was more for just getting it corrected I think they sent me a check for like 70 bucks or something that I never cashed but it was more for like peace of mind I guess I'd have framed that shit you know I was just thinking I don't know whatever happened to it but yeah probably could have it be a funny artifact to find if you have any yeah I have no idea what that would be and then there is another one that I know CSI would want me to bring up before we move on and I think that before Appalachia and that's the infamous ICMAG banning of High and Lonesome where like everybody kind of decided they were going to start pulling their threads out of that shit because they banned you um yeah I got banned I can't remember it might have been in the Kim 101 thread but basically it was having a bit of a back and forth with old Resdog ICMAG and this you know this wasn't even you know this was this was just you know he's a giant asshole and you know so you know I had a couple back and forths with him on the forums and that was you know just Nirvana's number one cash cow so basically if you talk shit to him you got yanked and he was just an arrogant prick and as far as I can tell he still is but you know now he's also a confirmed rat so you know I I would get banned again whatever so the rest of the story goes that everybody else on not everybody obviously but a bunch of respected guys on ICMAG including CSI who had you know hundreds and hundreds of pages of amazing grows up there just started deleting them to try to get you back it worked eventually didn't it uh no I had to I waited a while and then I was like I'm gonna sign back up and I signed back up and they banned me and then I I eventually did it again just to see and I think I still currently have an account there I never never used it but they always got me bro they always got me I always had riot in the name somewhere you know yeah and you know it was it was a marketing thing it was it was how he sold seeds and if you fucked with this money you were gone that tended to be most of the the way with forums though like most forums seem to have some sort of seed bank eventually connected to it and then you know they had their top dog and if you mess with that then there was an issue here almost always yeah there's always and that's the reason a lot of people like CSI and myself um many others kind of went to the can of Kavanaugh because it was it wasn't a it wasn't a seed bank forum you could kind of discuss what you wanted um just without a lot of the politics yeah yeah Kavanaugh is cool yeah all right I think now we can head in if you want sure um I did have one last thing on the forums which is in 2023 are there forums that are still relevant in like to you um there's good information on ICMAG still it's um it's difficult because as people got banned a couple things would happen they would either have their post left up without their name on it so it just says yes so when some of those older threads you don't really know whose comments you're reading you don't know whether to put a lot of weight into them um they there is a good amount of relevant information there um it's it's a bit antiquated at this point it's a lot of you know a lot of guys that are doing shit in illegal states wiring up you know a couple 250 watt HPS lights or something it's a lot of you know as a home grower I think it has a lot a lot of good material but if you're if you're doing anything big it's pretty antiquated yep that sounds bad and then I don't know I haven't I haven't checked out a lot of the others um it's still around I know like roll it up it's still around I haven't I've I went on there to follow a thread where somebody was growing some of my stuff and it was pretty cool but you know I'm not active on any of them I don't have a ton of extra time like I did when I was younger yep yep okay well I think we can segue now to the Appalachia um yep so from the time that you first made the cross like how long has it been? um it was 2007 I made it so it's been what 16 years wow yep yeah so it's you know for me a lot of people are really excited about it it's something that I made and I've pretty much grown it ever since then um it does really well in multiple applications for me so it's something you know it does well outside does well enough green house does well indoor so I've kind of always always done it um and I usually make seeds with it most of them just kind of hang out in my fridge until I toss them or something um but yeah it's an older line but it's a good one I want to ask you about um maybe what you perceive to be the different stages that project's been through but just before that um I want to ask about the name you know why did you call it Appalachia? I know you already talked about how high and lonesome is drawn from bluegrass um yeah Appalachia tell us about that uh really it was I was hoping to find something that was um a little more solid for what I wanted to outdoor and that's a time I was doing my outdoor grows in that region so I was kind of hoping for something that was regionally appropriate um a lot of the stuff that was popular on the west coast and popular in you know Spain or places like that didn't really cross over we have a different climate we have a lot more humidity um earlier frost in a lot of places so a lot of the stuff that was marketed for outdoor wasn't really well suited to the area so I kind of just uh called it Appalachia because Greenpreak was one that I grew a lot outside um and I was hoping to improve it with the Trace Dog Greenpreak has some issues outside it if you let it go to where I like it you know it's it likes to rot it's a very fast plant though so you can get away with it by taking it early it triggers pretty early here um and you can get it 8 weeks without any issues I like to take it 10 weeks and man if you leave it out out here that long it's you know it's you're losing half of it can you um first for like an indoor idiot like me can you explain what triggers early means because I know it took me years to figure out what that even meant yeah so as you know after the solstice the days start to get shorter and shorter um most stuff outdoor doesn't wait until it's actual daylight equivalent to flip if it did that everything would flip in September here so um as the days as the days get shorter and shorter um you know some stuff will start flowering at 14 hours of daylight some stuff will start flowering at 13 hours of daylight you know if you have it if you have it where it only gets morning sun it might trigger a little bit earlier um so that's always been especially with messing with different cuts outside you know there's some stuff that was amazing indoor but you take it outdoor and it triggers at the end of August and you can't finish it right here um green crack triggers pretty early um consistently so it was it was good candidate to work with for my scene yeah I know we liked it outdoors in San Diego a lot too uh most of my whole outdoor experience was green crack and got Casey Brains and green crack for the most part yep okay yeah so that's awesome so those were some of your initial considerations when you made the cross um would you be able to take us through the journey of like where Appalachia's been from you know um from the early days uh with Bodie and to where it is now uh yeah so I gave it to Bodie I didn't really know um what all had come of it I kind of took a break from um the forums the late 2000s maybe 2008-2009 I took a couple years off from it I was just kind of sick of the politics sick of you know the big dickens um so I I didn't really know what was going on with it I was growing it outside every year I had a couple cuts that I grew inside but outdoor I would usually make a few C's with it um basically uh kind of uneducated or not uneducated it just wasn't ever something that I intended for you know a broad audience so it was one to one breeding that I like see the lowers on a female I like and keep the seeds um around I don't know 2000 early 2010s um that was actually when I see Mag and sent me a message um saying that Ken had won the cannabis cup with a renamed apalachic cut I had logged on just to you know answer my messages and keep up with the few people I didn't want to lose contact with and I saw that and you know I hit up Bode about it and we talked about it and he was like oh man you know I didn't want to drag into the drama um yeah Matt did it um but he filled me in on it and um you know the word got out that it was these keeper female apalachic cut that won the cannabis cup as Bay 11 and around that same time um Bode had made you know a lot of crosses with it and uh it was starting to take off so that's when it was um you know that's when it was kind of a big deal there was a ton of demand for it and I you know I had some seeds that I was working with but not a ton um and uh I think I originally released the line as an F3 around 2012 through the seed depot which was you know a European seed bank that was stand up until it wasn't yeah until it fell down I released those and um the sour diesel apalachic cross so at this point with the oh sorry oh no go ahead I was going to ask with the F3 um how were you selecting towards that um so at that time I was looking for basically what I'm looking for now I like um um green crack my favorite thing about it is the flavor the candied mango it's really good the high is nice if you let it go 70 days but if you take it when it looks done around eight weeks it's it's not I mean it's not that good you know if you if you take it 70 it's a nice buzz it's good all time days but it doesn't you know it doesn't pack a punch it has a pretty low ceiling but the flavor is I mean you just want to smoke it constantly yeah so um you know my goal with that one has always been try to get some of the mango flavor with the potency which you know it's hard to get it all together but that's that was the goal then um and that's you know I don't know how many of this packs got sold um you know they shut down a few months after I started dealing with them and kind of screwed all the breeders but yeah yeah but that was that was the goal then and um after you know took my licking's there I just kind of gave up on any kind of ideas with the seed game because it was too sketchy dealing with people in Europe and all that jazz yeah um is it worth talking about the difference between you working on it then and your recent releases of it sure so you know working on it then I made those F3s I didn't use a huge pool to select from then uh the F2s you know it was from maybe 15 seed something like that um and once I got to F3 there were some plants I liked but when I made F4s with it it lost the mango the mango was pretty much gone um you know there was a higher percentage of a bland highly resinous plants um the resin from green crack came through but it lost the flavor the resin of it came through and then the potency of the trace salt um but I couldn't I couldn't get that flavor um I took it to F5s um see if I could you know find some but it was you know more of the same it remained a very vigorous highly resinous plant with um you know still a good little range to it um some good highs in there but it didn't have the flavor um so you know after years of people asking about it and Matt kind of getting on me to make some more I um I went back to the F2s I popped 50 of them and um I found um you know several plants that I really liked in the F2s there were there's a good bit of mango there were some some with you know mango and fuel kind of interplaying in a unique way um so to avoid bottlenecking it I I used a couple males and um you know all of my favorite females um I grew the females out separately smoked on them all and the ones that were really impressive that had what I thought I wanted in the line those are the ones that um I harvested seed from and that's what are at least um did you make a conscious decision about whether to do one to one as opposed to like a group uh so I yeah I did make that decision so initially I was doing one to one breeding and I think that works really well for certain things um the the thing with Appalachia at the time you know was some people wanted it to smoke a lot of people wanted it for hobbyist breeding projects um and a lot of people had a kind of different um impression of what the line should be based on Thody's work Thody had um a male that brought a lot of creaminess um you know like a creamy Kim sweetness um to the lines and I didn't want to completely deviate from that because that's what a lot of people you know fell in love with with the line um so I wanted it to I wanted to keep it open so that there would be um a decent variety for people to look through what I've heard there is that the world owes me a favor for getting you to release seeds so basically it's all me is what I heard there I definitely did want to get into two guys one cups but just before that on either side of the Appalachia like in this whole journey projects um that you'd like to highlight um not really I've done a lot of kind of like private stuff for my own curiosity and um I don't know I've done a lot of things that I'm either not pleased with or they I've never gotten around to testing them I have a lot of I never really had the the mindset to release them commercially so there's I have a good amount of stuff that I'm kind of digging back through now um but no nothing noteworthy that would mean anything to anybody except me he's the pickiest person I've ever met it's crazy how much stuff he's made or like I've talked about in the past like gone through several generations and then been like eh I'll go back like three steps and then start there again and go back through it's like tedious I mean it's it's amazing to watch it's amazing to watch it's it's just not often done you know because it isn't much work yeah I mean it's um you know like I have a KMD backcross that I made um but that's not it's not something that's ready kind of ready for me to let out I've you know I recently did some more sativa kind of stuff but it's um you know sure he's still out on it I gotta I gotta approve of it I think we can come back to some of your you know current more recent experiments and your B sides but maybe we can't talk about two guys one cups at this point yeah um that was all I mean pretty much stem from a joke yeah and uh me and Matt were talking about you know winning cups and not getting credit for it because the genetics were either renames or you know just not called out and I was like man we need to we need to start a company and call it uh two guys one cups and I spelled it like you know the infamous two girls one cup video and really it's um from a marketing and branding standpoint it's a terrible move like probably one of the worst um worst things but it was it was just something we were fucking around with for fun um to release kind of collaborations um yeah we've we've talked about like rebranding doing it seriously yeah but there's some cool stuff in there yeah that was a good name too it's why don't people appreciate like triple on time yeah yeah it's super witty so what were your what were both of your favorites to come out of that collab we only did two yeah yeah there's two there's the the poodle nuts loop on it and then the lupus headband Appalachia and that's it that's what we've got that that comprises the total of two guys one cups yeah wait how does how does poodle nuts relate to dogs walks it's a cut of it it's the it's the cut that uh 40 grit found that was kind of how it became popular yep yep um but yeah that's the extent of that that work thus far yeah and maybe under new different names new different masks yep okay um I don't know where this one fits in high and low and some but we you and I talked about um you talking about breeding for recessives so where did that appear in your timeline um so I mean that's kind of that was kind of like something I dealt with from the jump in trying to breed a Mexican plant that didn't have hermaphroditic traits I had um I was I was pretty I always kind of been a geek about all this shit so when I used to get bags of Mexican weed I would save the seeds I would um label them and I had a system I made up it was pretty like over the top really thinking back on it um but I would have some notes on it some notes on you know the quality of the high from the plants the physical appearance appearance without being too harsh because you know like I said that stuff was all treated like shit yeah um and I would you know I would ask for origins most of the time I couldn't get it but you know sometimes it would be Sinaloa or probably just whatever the dude thought would shut me up um probably yeah yeah so but it was good because I could go back and look at um you know which ones were my favorite to smoke and um those would be the seeds that I popped um I'd also go things like you know seed maturity if there were a ton of white seeds in it I figured you know they have problems finishing it in Mexico it's pretty fucked for Virginia um but uh so I grew one of those lines and um it was you know it was a pretty traditional kind of Mexican sativa there was a lot of plants with peppery, terpenaline in it I had one plant um it was like a straight mango and not mango like a cantaloupe Melanie um you know sweet spice there was a really just incredible flavor it was the only thing I'd really seen like that um in Mexican weed um but it was a full on intersect plant I mean you know you'd have clusters in the tops you'd have clusters everywhere um so I crossed I crossed that to another um another Mexican I had and uh you know the next year I grew those out um they in the f1 there was a a good mix I didn't find anything that was quite like that cantaloupey type plant so I made a few more with my favorite plants and then in the um in the f3 of that plant I found quite a few that had that cantaloupe aroma to them but they all hermed um so that was you know I was trying to breed for that recessive flavor profile but in that line that seemed to be linked to intersex traits um so that was that was my first um first experience trying to breed for recessives failing at it um and then you know I've had several other instances with it over the years um one project it's not even I mean I guess it's a project because I've been working on it for a few years but um I have been growing um a line from Hyde his subterfuge it's his um improved abc line you know the plants are very abc they are you know you can tell he's worked quite a bit it's pretty inbred the plants are sluggish um thanks a lot to get him going um and I've been kind of making seeds with it playing with it I've made a good amount of hybrids with it um trying to get a little more potency out of it and trying to get away from the terpenaline which is very I mean it's it's not like um it's not like train wreck terpenaline where it has some interesting notes in it it's kind of like a flat kind of one dimensional flavor um so the first time I made seeds with that line I crossed it to um several things that I thought could aid in the potency and the flavor uh Kim D Bubba Cush um I think TK a few others um and I popped some of those hybrids um the Kim D ABC is the one that I kind of messed with the most so when you uh pop the F1s of it they're all normal there's not a mutant anything in there um you know you get some plants that have the kind of ABC type um flavor palette and high you know some stuff that just isn't really hitting on all that much um but um in the F1s they're completely normal plants when you F2 then though uh when you F2 you'll start to see that recessive leaf pop out um you get a mix of them but to lock down that recessive trait you know you have to have to take it to an F3 um and it's something I've been messing with it um I've talked to CSI about it because he's done much more work with it than I have um with the uh ABC line not confused but same kind of thing um but you know once you get back to having that mutation on the leaf um you pretty much you're back where you started back to square one yeah I mean you can get some stuff that's a little bit prettier or smells a little bit better or might be a tad more potent but you're pretty much back in the same ball game you know once you get to that level so it's um and that's another thing you know it's a it's a recessive trait that you're trying to isolate but once you work it to the point of getting there um it seems to be linked with that kind of dull terpenaline low potency thing so it's um it's taught me a lot that that's a good one messing with like something like that or something like maybe breeding autofowers where you can visually see the recessives that you're looking for um but it's been um it's taught me a lot about breeding it's just uh it's just not easy yeah the stubborn stubborn linked traits like that are crazy like yeah I mean do you think that's what Hyde was doing because I know when you go back and look at the um the genetics and makeup subterfuge it's it's like got so much in it was it I wonder if he was just going like always moving forward like okay I'm gonna try to put calio in it and then uh it didn't really work that great let's try this one you know yeah I don't know how he did it um you know I've never talked to him about that um but I assume he probably had to do it kind of similar to what I did or what you know CSI is done where you have to take it to an F3 just to get back to that mutation um yeah so you would really I feel like you would need to just imprint it to the point of it not being fun to grow to get anything else out of it yeah we we actually have an Aussie guy who is in our discord uh new member um and I believe he worked sort of collaborated with Caleb always growing a bunch of ABC in Australia talking to Caleb about it so maybe he'll have interesting questions to follow up with um I think uh yeah really cool to hear an account of um actively looking for these recessives actually seeing like the ratios come out in F2s um yeah that must have been a pretty amazing experience um how come decide ABC was its own like wild rare cannabis hunt for a lot of us that were like straight up dorks I think like not everybody even knew about it like is this kind of like niche thing that like in the even in the breeding community was still niche for anybody to even know that this thing fucking existed and nobody could get their fucking myths on it in the US and you know there's the emory release of like that and flow crossed and yeah yeah I had some of those did you? yeah but I when I got them I didn't want to pop them until I you know I don't know what it was I was saving them hoping you know I could do some breeding with it or something and I didn't pop them for you you lose your virginity and then you could pop them yeah exactly exactly um but that never happens so um they just they just kind of yeah I let them age out and I couldn't pop them when I went to them bummer such a bummer they're so rare they're only I can't remember how many packs to release to that but it was so limited yeah it was um but that's what that's what uh Hodge line was based off of that emory drop that's right but yeah someone finally our friend resin lung even went to Australia to try to go track down ABC like on his own and I couldn't do it and then eventually eventually one dude like still kind of I personally my opinion is it's kind of sketch how he came across them I'm still thinking that they might just be via hive somehow like backdoor maybe um but yeah somehow they were brought to market eventually and uh yeah I'm glad they did though yeah it's definitely um something more for like the hardcore nerds than the people that are like trying to grow flower to sell um it has zero marketability I think but um I mean it just looks like Ivy looks like Ivy yeah yeah they're they're super cool plants I have a bunch of your your version of the subterfuge going on right now yeah yeah I have bags of it that I still haven't shopped man yeah I think it's cool I wish everybody grew up even for ornamental it's uh oh yeah yeah we got a place yeah you can grow a yard full of it nobody know what the fuck it is for sure yeah well I thought we could maybe wrap up this bit on recessives and we have so many questions for you um but I think before we get on to some of the more open-ended ones um I'd love for you to kind of um I suppose not conclude but um we can we can focus a bit more on your work again and maybe you can talk through some of the recent releases um the Appalachia crosses that you've made maybe standouts anything interesting in the process of making those uh yeah so those were all you know I didn't cross everything I have in my stable to it I mean that's kind of that's kind of the move but there was you know it was all plants uh that I felt could benefit from certain aspects of it um you know old Betsy is one of my favorite things to smoke the flavor is incredible um it's just it's like opening a jar of grandma's jelly I mean it's just you can't stop smelling it it's just incredible um every time I open a jar I'm like well fuck let me just smoke a little um but it you know when you're vegging the plant it always wants to throw pistols if you get a root bound it wants to start flowering if you feed it the wrong thing it wants to start flowering it's a it's kind of a visual plant um so I wanted to cross it to something so that I could kind of I wanted something similar that I could kind of you know go back and pull that pull that type of plant out with um that was that was a pretty successful one I really like the way that came out um you could mix those can I ask you could you use that trigger that that pre flowering trait as a beneficial thing for outdoor um outdoor it doesn't seem to do it the way that I grow so in full sun it's a little bit more um it's a little bit more vigorous in the sun and I normally grow in pretty large pots so it doesn't have that issue where like if it hits you know if it hits the side of the pot it gets pissed yeah okay that makes a lot more sense yeah okay continue sorry um but I did that one um the shoreline is one of my favorites I smoke it daily um it's an incredible plant it is an absolute beast outside um for my climate of all the cuts that I've grown outside it performs the best uh yield wise it is very um rock resistant you can take it through some shit in the fall and it's um it comes out fine when everything else is kind of melting away it's just they're rocking um so that's that's one I did um I did here um yep we maybe can ask I can ask the first community question um we're just from shore groups um and I imagine from Greston as well in spirit um they want to know what the shoreline what you've observed the shoreline tends to pass okay uh so the shoreline it comes through pretty pretty strong in crosses for the the terps the it has this unending funk trash kind of just nastiness um it's super loud um you know it's when it's flowering you know you got some shoreline in it um it it comes through really well for that and it it throws these fat colas you know it's in veg it's not super vigorous but once you flip it it just beats out and um you know of the Appalachic crosses that's probably the that and the GMO cross are the best yieldings um but it's it's um it's just a phenomenal plant and it passes the things that I like um but you know the Appalachic gives it a little bit more vigor in veg um it's easier to get up and going um but yeah the funk the shoreline funk is what what I what I want it to pass and luckily what it does pass nice how do you do with the GMO yeah I'm interested in the GMO the GMO uh that's the a cool one so you know is is pretty well known for dominating crosses um it dominates a lot of things um with Appalachia it still comes through really strong um you know if you want a close representation of GMO you should pop them because you'll get you'll get some that are kind of dead ringers for it you also get some yeah you also get some that have that same kind of resin production and that same um that same kind of dumping ability of GMO that have a little bit more tropical flavor to them they still have a ton of stretch um but they have a lot of fuel on the back end so that's a good cross and if you're looking for something that's a little more um you know modern kind of weed like I don't like most modern things I try I don't like gelato at all I'm not a big fan of any cookies any kind of cakes I've tried a ton of that stuff and you know I like to grow weed that gets me high and that stuff just doesn't do it do you want to um GMO is I think probably the most remarkable plant that's come out of that most recent eras of things and um it's an incredible plant and I just wanted you know I wanted something that people could find GMO but maybe have a little more variability than a lot of the you know GMO work out there yeah killer definitely the one that interests me and is the electric bogaloo yeah yeah so that that one's a bit of a beast you know locals has a really good kind of mix of phenos going right now I have one outdoor that is um massive um it's hasn't started this flower yet and uh it's yeah like I don't know eight feet tall it's giant um but there there is um you know I tried using electric bogaloo several times and it just didn't it didn't produce pollen um but I was I it has some really interesting stuff in there there are some plants in there that look like Neville's haze there are some plants there that yeah there's some you know sensitive expressions that have a ton of the kind of candy mango that I associate with and crack you know um electric bogaloo has has mango but more so like mid flowering by you know if you take it if you take it to the end that kind of dissipates and you have uh you know a spicy just I mean it's an amazing finished flower but um I wanted to see if you know that cross could maybe bring out a little more of that into the finished flower and it does um makes sense yeah so there's there's a there's a pretty wide um you know there's a there's a wide mix in that one but a lot of a lot of sativa expressions you get a few with nice running colas and um you know I'm a huge fan of sativas I mean that's I love them that and dog shit electric bogaloo that's one I smoke every single day until I run out like I just did um but yeah that's that's a great one I wonder if it's like like a lot of us that grew up on Mexican stuff just have this long lasting love for for highs like that I don't know like I have a love for all those type of plants myself very much yeah it's um well it's but it's I think a little bit more palatable to a broader audience because oh for sure like you know hazes or Mexicans or Colombians they can they can get you like paranoid and disoriented you can get you know just so ripped that you're you know confused disoriented it's almost like you know tripping um yeah but but uh dog shit is just it's a it's a up high but it's it's gentle it's a great flavor and you're just soaring it's just you know it's like a memory of the first you know one of the first times you got really high and you're like riding a bike or anything that's just a beautiful childhood bliss kind of high I love it yeah that's one of the ones that I realized at our get together that we had last time there wasn't anybody in the room that didn't like absolutely love that like agreed or disagreed on different things except for dog shit for some reason yeah yeah I mean from the first time I smoked it I've just loved that one that's one of my all-time favorites by the way your candy was fire fire fire he's still one of my favorite candy's ever sometimes I get it right yeah yeah was there anything else you wanted to add about this your recent release because otherwise I was going to move us on to you maybe maybe give a sneak preview of what you're doing now or what's coming yeah the only other one I'll mention just because I have a lot of people asked about it a lot of people ask me what the most fuel line that I have is and you know the gorilla blue cross I just harvested a couple of those and that is just that rank fuel it has some sweetness come through but it's more of like a like gg4 to me has like a artificial chocolatey miss to it and this has like fuel with like a a like powdered cocoa milk chocolatey thing on the back end it's just intoxicating to me it's really really nice and you know that's one where I haven't done a lot of reading with gg4 and I wasn't you know I wasn't sure on it but man that was one that really surprised me when I drove out it's there's some phenomenal plants in there I think a lot of us that like have tried to avoid using a lot of high clones waited a long time to use gg4 because it was so heavily pushed like maybe even prior to the cookies there was just so stuffed in your face like you need to be growing gg4 so I didn't have any interest in it it looked like a polyhybrid to me and I figured okay that's going to breed so variant that why would I even care yeah but it breeds remarkably consistent it is for being a for being like a polyhybrid bag seed I mean it is I grew you know half of the plants could have been cuts of the same that I grew it was yeah it has I think the least least variety in any of my lines now yeah I was one of the last to grow that cut like because I is like I said I just didn't want anything to do with it just because of how many other people were using it and I just thought I'd do something different but when I finally did I was like oh damn this is actually pretty good I like how this breeds yeah it's actually good to smoke on its own too and I know CSI had that same sentiment like he hit me up he's like damn this is good why didn't anybody tell us yeah it's it's a good one um yeah it does really well outside here too so it kind of sticks around for that and that's kind of why I kept it around um but I've been uh I've been pretty surprised with the way it reads me I'm glad you guys mentioned it because yeah I was going to point out that um I didn't see many of you working with it until relatively recently I thought that was interesting um yeah Matt elite to me under that one yeah he said I had to try it I'm like really I don't know I mean I like Josie a lot he's a cool dude and we got along and and uh and then I started smoking everybody's gross and I was like damn it's actually kind of good but will it breed like this more importantly than anything like it not only is it a good grower it breeds very well to chew to type kind of you know yep yeah oh yeah okay so I'm I gotta plug the fact that uh these these seats these packs are available on riotseeds.com yes available go there check it out and um yeah so I thought maybe now to to to more or less wrap up a bit on your work in this like linear fashion um would you be able to give us an idea of like what you're looking towards now and in and for the future um we had a question from moonbeard about um Hayes experiments I think that he's heard of that you might be doing um uh yeah yeah so I have that going um I actually have a few things before that like I have seats done for a few other projects one of them is um I was selecting a Appalachia out of the s3 um looking for a candidate to do a green crack back cross with um I had some hiccups with you know the sourcing of the cut so I had to get it I um I I had to get it from another source for political reasons um so I have that um cross the seeds finishing up now for the back cross um and I have already harvested um I wanted to remake that Appalachian diesel that um did a few years ago so I seeded a um pretty large diesel plant and I seeded um the headband cut that you know goes by L.A. Cush from That's a Dog um that's another very nice diesel um I really love that plant indoor or outdoor it has extreme potency it's a great plant um so I did that um a few other things I crossed it to my favorite um Santa Cruz rec plant from pop um pack uh Santa Cruz Goat Farm um I had a plant that was just a beast in there it um was a very kind of train rec dominant plant um but in the last few weeks of flower it had this really nice spicy blue essence kind of come through um just a really really nice hybrid of uh the Santa Cruz blue dream and train rec um so I seeded that plant with those um I actually just popped some of this to try out um and then I have the green crack fully pollinated um and those you know those would be ready to test here shortly that's awesome yeah and then um then I had another uh smaller run of some um Kim D Appalachia stuff I was messing with um f2ing it fat crossing into the Kim D um just doing a few things there um kind of building block work nothing um that's that's probably just gonna be stuff I mess with um but right now I'm I am doing like a haze hybrid hunt I uh I popped super silver haze I've popped northern lights five haze um mango haze that came V.O. um Wally duck it's the mango haze IVL one that he's he's in bread in Australia um it's um yeah and then a Neville's haze mango haze uh also from Wally duck um and of all those lines um I've grown them out and I have my favorites um the the mango haze I think is the the one um the plant the plants are um a little bit a little bit more finicky it's um you know it's not as easy a plant to grow as super silver haze um but it super silver haze tends to be pretty pretty much a sort of tentaline dom plant um it has a ton of that with the mango haze you get it you get some sweeter spiciness um the high is consistently better um I think it's a better representation of what people want in a type high um it's not as not as muddle you know super silver haze you can feel the indica influence um it's more of a hybrid um but but the mango haze um that's my favorite I found a male that I really like in there um I'm going to be um you know making some more of those seeds as my personal thing you know that's something while he's working with so um but I'm crossing that to a lot of cuts that I have plants that I have that I really like um so that will be I'm going to start calling you Virginia mango bro I know I know I was just thinking about it I was like dude I need to get the fuck away from mango I mean it's like you know blue I just kept going to it and it's just you know it's something you love and that just is it well and mango haze is is way different than like a candy mango yeah you know it's um you know I don't know if I was naming it if I call it mango haze but you know that was the name of the mother was mango um but yeah I'll be I'll I'll be doing a bunch of uh a bunch of hybrids with that um hitting it to um a bunch of the sativa cuts that I have some of the heavier hitters you know became dogs and all that but um yeah there's a few that I'm I'm really interested to check out I'm going to hit the the a five haze with it um yeah so yeah we'll see we'll see how that goes I'm hoping everybody's not too scared to release those seed mines because uh let's say check no one else gets a fuck you know like I I have a friend sit on them and I'm like what the fuck are you doing everybody else is releasing them like you don't have to check yeah it's um yeah it's um you know if there are political issues there I I don't I wasn't told anything about it when I got it it's you know there are reasons not to release it a five is is one of the most difficult plants that I have is um it's not easy to grow it's you know it's just not and most people that are used to growing you know ogee cushes sourdies was you know that modern it's just a whole whole fucking different ballgame and um it's it's a fussy little plant so it's you know and you know I think a lot of those hybrids that's going to be more kind of it's not beginner growers plant um so yeah we'll see how it goes I'm looking for testing them out that's something that um you know it I'm passionate about that that type of smoke so it's I'm looking forward to to actually getting to test them yeah we need more of that in our community as is like more of those type of highs those offerings it's gonna get it's gonna get more and more and of course this time goes on because financially it's harder to produce things like that so hopefully people um take advantage of it while it's here you know while it's around yeah you know the the commercial viability of something when breeding is never kind of been what I go for um I'm not great at that side of it I basically make things that I want to see I like to I like to grow the best flower that I can that's what I want to have walk down in seed form um so I'm not concerned about you know how how well it does it's just something that I feel compelled to do yeah I want to say that um at this point in the conversation I'm so stoked like the archivist in me is so pleased to have gotten that information from you yeah really grateful for that and um at this point you know was there anything more you want to say about your work your career so far um because otherwise we can also launch into the um heap of questions that we've gotten from both Matt and the community uh no I think I'm good Matt did you want to kick us off on some of these more like open-ended questions I know we have some like hypothetical breeding project yeah I don't know if I'll cover some of the hypotheticals because we're so far in and I know we have a ton of questions so let's um you know one of the questions I had for you and it's kind of a hard one because I I thought of something that would be hard for me to answer what's something you about the modern seed era that you enjoy um I like how I like how accessible it is for people I've always um I've always been a tinkerer in the weed world you know it's um it's always been a passion thing for me more than monetary um it's I like how accessible it is how how so many different people are doing different things um it's not you know a lot of the releases you see and I'm not going to name it because I don't want to trash anybody on it but it's just the same shit across to the same shit um which drives me crazy and you know I'm I can say that I'm guilty of it you know I've made a GMO cross I've um you know I've crossed salaries all the stuff but you know a lot of the kind of incestuous lines across together the cookies cookies and uh you know um that's that's but I like I like seeing the unique things that people are doing and um I like seeing people do it on a level that you know is satisfying to them and less driven for you know having a drop that sells out in 30 minutes yeah um that's a good answer so yeah you know like CSI you know I've had a ton of respect for him for a long time and he does his passion projects and you know they don't pay the bills I'm sure but that's the kind of shit when I sneak a order into and that's what I get um right you know I want to see I want to see what the you know TK crossed the PCK is or you know whatever whatever it is um I want to you know I like I like exploring different profiles I don't want you know something that dumps that I can sell a bunch of Ryzen off over something it you know I like the I just like the overall abundance that's out there you know it's very different than the Dutch the Dutch era and that early height kind of era um yeah to me you're talking a bit more about now you're breeding philosophy or kind of your philosophy towards cannabis in general like do you do you think it's it's evolved or changed much since those like brick weed seeds um not really for me I'm kind of you know my number one goal is still to have the best that I can have um you know weed early on I learned that I could produce something better than I could get and you know there's there's not a lot of things in life that I can have the best of but I can have the best weed um so that's still that's still that's still like my number one goal and what I kind of what I'm constantly going for yeah yeah love that all right do you want to bring in some of the uh the user questions all right all right I got I got a good one to start us off because it's I think it'll be fun in the wind wants to know what was your worst year with the worst outdoor season oh man so I've uh I had 20 years of gorilla growing so I've had some pretty fucking bad ones um I'm trying to think so I've had yeah I've had some shit wiped out but the worst I had I had um a pretty decent outdoor for the area that I'm in um you know enough that you know there's some shit you thought about before you fell asleep at night and um it was most mostly all in three sections kind of separated out um and in October the whole fucking thing got ripped um I I had lost plants I had lost plants many times mid-season um but this one somebody got it somebody came and they got everything um completely ripped me off I had a lot riding on it I was pretty invested in that one um but they left I had a Neville's haze plant out there it was fucking massive taller than everything else and I guess they didn't see it um because it was you know it was mostly kind of hybrid style plants smaller busier plants and this one fucking tree of a plant so I got ripped off I was fucking defeated feeling like shit and I saw that they left that plant and it kind of sketched me out for a little bit um I bet you know I didn't want it I didn't want to cut it down um you know I figured that was that was left for me to get fucking whatever popped with her yeah so I just let that thing go and we had a pretty pretty mild fall that year um so you know I think it was a couple days after Thanksgiving I went back and it was still there it was just about just about done and um I said I said fuck it I'm gonna I'm gonna get it so I you know cut that plant down stashed it appropriately drove it to where I was drying it um so I pretty much lost my whole harvest except the only thing I had to smoke until you know the next indoor run I did which was probably gonna be in the spring was you know this all this Neville's haze yeah and it was a phenomenal plant but it was so goddamn strong it was like you know you can smoke that sometimes but you can't just like you know I was like four months into just smoking Neville's haze all day like you'd smoke it you go to the grocery store you like start to walk in and you're like right now you know like um but it was you know it was an electric winter um but that yeah but I've had that I've had floods wipe out gardens I've had you know outdoor growing is difficult enough outdoor growing I mean you have to go into it I hope then you get hassles the work you put in out of it that would be so so stressful and like that would be so heavy to lose like a whole crop at like knowing each year in a row you can get ripped that would kill me yeah yeah it's um it sucks I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore yeah for sure I mean indoor growing you you know that that's a possibility but like gorilla growing it just seems like almost like a weird inevitability that's something you know yeah it's you know there's so many different things that can happen you know people hunting people you know just everything yeah serial killers bearing bodies the normal exactly yeah all that okay um PBJ which of his lines would he suggest growing for each level of experience novice intermediate advanced okay so the Appalachia stuff overall it makes for some very easy plants I think there are some that are a little bit more finicky I think you know dog shit Appalachia is a little a little more intermediate but for the most part those are pretty easy plants um as a beginner I would say the F3 Appalachia or the Ulfslut foot which is the old Betsy Appalachia those are I mean kind of set it and forget it plants the intermediate ones would be stuff like you know the lupus headband Appalachia you know nah the GMO is pretty easy too um but you know when we if I end up releasing any of the hay stuff that's going to be more on the advanced level of growing just because mango haze itself is a finicky plant and a lot of the cuts that I really like that I'm using um as mothers a lot of those are you know more finicky plants they go longer you have a lot more stretch um it's a lot more you have to think about it a lot more nice thank you for that we've got a big one from Blazip Panda a good mate does Highlone seem like to go by Appalachia Daddy or Father Appy that's a good question local calls me daddy so that's the thing I prefer that is true because local also asked what's it like being my dad it's uh well you know that's another instance of kind of set it and forget it right tell you again a little yep more earnest one in the wind wants to know a bit more about your grow take um he says like besides the soil makes what's your what are your veg weeks outdoor dates I guess he wants to know yeah um it it varies greatly I kind of I do a lot of different things um in the last few years I've gotten into um doing some light depths outside so um where I used to put plants out uh around you know the first of June now I'm I'm depping in the spring and my full season plants don't go out until um you know mid July um but you know I do a lot of things a lot of different ways so this year I did um a run I have my full season stuff going now I have a few extra plants that are out in the gorilla spot you know I just I don't have I'm always looking for the you know best way to deal with all the seeds that I've got basically um yeah yeah and yeah soil mix I mean I do almost almost fully organic um because I just like a mended soil I like the way plants can kind of take what they want when they want it um yeah and I try to try to keep you know fungus and bugs off them and kind of let them do their thing outside yep nice okay um I know Matt you mentioned we probably wouldn't get into the hypothetical breeding scenarios but I thought moon did have an interesting one that I think is broad enough that we could maybe dip into it which is the one where you asked him on a three way three way with low weight oh oh oh wow Jesus my gosh so his question is if you're going to try and make a modern four way what plants or at least what traditional regions do you think you might pull from would this be like reinventing the old four way or like a just a four way hybrid of different I think a four way hybrid of your your choosing um I would probably do a Colombian Mexican as the father plant and hmm I don't know it's hard to say in Afghani because it's so broad um it'd probably be a Hawaiian Afghani crossed to a Mexican Colombian is what I would do and when I say Hawaiian I'm thinking of like hybrid types you know like island weed an older you know older like that fed yeah yeah something like that you know like um a lot of Oh Hocking um was planted in Hawaii and they kind of added in Afghani as they got it and something with that influence I'm a big fan of Central American since Eva's I really like Southeast Asian ones but they don't like the intersect straights that are so abundant in those so I'd probably keep it Central American was just a touch of Afghani and Hawaiian boom how about you Matt how would you do this man I've I'd be like what's the goal what's the end goal what's the end goal here I don't know it probably ended up with something blueberry though I don't know that's my something blueberry what the fuck else did I do yeah okay um I think the last one that I've got on my list from Ring of Fire is how has your perception of the industry changed over the years and why well you know I I have never been an industry guy I don't I'm not a big fan of the legal weed seen in every instance that I've seen up into quite a few states I've seen a lot of um you know legal weed and it's not anything that I would want to be stuck smoking I do I do like the the easy access for home growers I think that's huge I think you know that that's just that's gonna take cannabis further in the end then the commercialization of it I think um you know you hear a ton of people talk about niche markets and you know how there's gonna be a this you know top shelf markets gonna arise but I you know I think that's a long way off I think you know the the only way to create a demand for something like that is to have people you know become empowered to grow something different something unique and you know with a more interesting high and you know that's that's something that home growers are gonna do and share with their circle and um I really think that's the the most viable path forward for the betterment of cannabis is through home growers and you know obvious people that are really passionate about it not just looking for a paycheck by growing a you know warehouse of wedding cake or something. Yeah for sure shout out to the home growers um I think in many ways as well like the last breeding series was uh well for everyone but I think we also have one eye for sure on the hobbyist and people at home or people growing in smaller spaces in general you know um yeah yeah I think that's a good sentiment yeah I don't have much advice for people in big warehouses to be honest yeah I mean that's you know it's big business there there's trying to you know trying to get by trying to make a marketable product that moves fast it's just you know it's big business yeah I just mean from the perspective of I just like I wouldn't even know where to begin from that perspective because I just don't do it you know what I mean so yeah everything we do is definitely targeted towards uh smaller grows I am out of I am done with my list of community questions but uh you we did talk about one thing um before this chat which was you mentioned that you were actually drying seeds at the moment did you want to like just touch on give a little you know quick overview of like how that process works for you uh yeah so um you know when I chop plants I pretty much treat them like their flower to dry them I try to keep the temperature as low as possible which is difficult this time of year but you know you know 60-60 rule I try to get close to that um and I'll dry them slow um kind of let the seeds mature in the buds as best as possible um I paper bag um when I when I chop seeds I will dry them further um on screens and I like to once they're good and dry I like to refrigerate them for a while kind of you know simulate a winter type period and then I will um generally start cracking them and testing them out so yeah nothing nothing super fancy just making sure I get as much of that moisture out as possible um before I get to cold no that's great you know I think these are just the little ways we can extend on you know say that seed making episode that we did by asking you guys about some of your actual processes um so that's really really cool to hear um yep man did you have anything else for high and lonesome that's got got got dude not it like thanks for coming on like uh oh yeah pleasure having you obvious um honor to call you my friend and uh like I know how many people have been asking for this again have a little more longer version of uh I think it went well it went awesome so yeah it's a lot yeah thanks for having me yeah anything anything from you high and lonesome before we conclude now it's uh it's been a pleasure thanks for having me and uh let me talk about weed in the way that I'm accustomed to oh dude this was this was great I loved it thank you good alright gentlemen with that I guess we'll call it a day and uh thanks again and and hopefully if anybody has any questions Brian lonesome hit him up in the patreon discord he's in there he's usually uh pretty available at different hours you can get back to you relatively shortly on any questions you have about seeds also available on rightseeds.com where you can also get the reversal spray and all that good fun stuff and with that thank you thanks guys wanna sit at the table with the syndicate check out our patreon and our link tree or description below our merch site is officially live we have all sorts of shirts hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast I've been saving old designs for years for this purpose so please check it out syndicategear.com we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily it's an amazing community of learning away from IG and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope you join our union of breeders and growers come check it out