 Today, in the podcast, we actually talk a lot about the 30 days of coaching. And, you know, if you're just coming over to our podcast or just started listening to us in the first, maybe month or two, and there's over 500 episodes, that could be pretty overwhelming for somebody that wants all the good information there. So what we have done here is we have taken all the really solid information about nutrition and working out and muscle imbalances and gut, microbiome. I mean, you name it, we get all the stuff that we would put together if we were coaching someone day by day. And we, it's the 30 days of coaching and my pumpkin to me. That's right. Every fucking thing you need. And here, what Doug has done is he's actually time-stamped where we talk about that topic. So each day, there's a new topic and the topic is time-stamped in all the podcast episodes where we talk in depth about that. Plus, it includes any studies to back up any of the information that we talk about during these podcasts. If you're, you know, if you're embarking on a fitness journey or if you're listening to our podcast, you're an embarker. Well, if you, look, you know you are. A lot of people will listen to our podcast and we get messages all the time and they're like, oh my God, you guys are saying a lot of stuff that's counter to what I thought was true in fitness. For example, you know, you don't need to eat small meals throughout the day to burn more fat or, you know, just all the myths and baloney that's out there. We talk about that in detail in the 30s of coaching. We provide you with great information and we provide you with links to studies where if you're, if you're a science minded individual, you can actually click on those links and read the study yourself so you can see kind of how it's, you know, how they came to how we come to our conclusions and it's free and it's going to keep getting better. It's so all you got to do is go to mind pump media.com. You opt in and you'll get it all. I think the first day now, right? We don't even wait. You don't have to get it every single day for 30 days. Now you get it all right away right away. So there you go. Mind pump media.com 30 days of coaching. We love you. Everything you need right there. If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump. Mind pump. With your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews. Do you remember that? Yeah. Do you remember the song? You do? I don't know the words, but. Doctails. You know why that was one of the most misleading cartoons of all fucking time? Wow, you do. He knows the whole song. I knew that part. You know, it was, of all the cartoons I can think about, one of the most just horrible, misinforming cartoons I can think of. If you had a vault with a pile of gold coins and you jumped off. A diving board, head first into it, you would die. Okay, let's get a bunch of gold coins and we'll throw a, we'll throw a duck at them. Let's see how the duck does. I'm jumping into the paper money. I would do that. Even that, even if it was a huge vault of just stacked paper money. It would be tempting for you not to do it though. To dive in it? Oh yeah. No, if it was jewels, it would be fine. How much would that hurt? If it was stacked, like 100, or like $10,000 stacked, so they come in the bank and break your face. Yeah, that wouldn't work, but if it was open. Yeah, you'd have to fluff it. Yeah, you could do it. Like a pillow. You could do it. It'd be like leaves, leaf piles. Yeah, it would be like a leaf. You could do it. Run and jump in it. You'd have to like loosely like stack them in there. Well, but coins, you'd break your face. Maybe we'll be so rich we can do that. Yeah, you know, that's why they never got, that's why they never got sued. Because if it was something that kids actually had and tried, they would have got sued by now. But because kids don't have a vault of gold coins. Because don't tell me. There was Richie Rich. He did the same shit. Did he dive in the gold coins? I'm pretty sure he surfed it or something. Be honest now. Be honest. Let's say you were a kid watching that and you saw Scrooge McDuck diving in the coins, and you just so happen to have a vault of gold coins. Right. Tell me honestly, would you and not have jumped into the gold coins and broke your teeth? Well, I would have cannonball first. Yeah. They're broke your ass. Yeah. They're broke your tailbone. I've been smart enough not to dive head first. I've been shitting gold coins for the last two weeks. Oh my goodness. What a great podcast. Oh my goodness. I have to say. I was a little nervous actually. I really, really like the girls. I do. From the Girls Gone Wad podcast? I did. I had a good people. I did. I had a good time. So they contacted us a long time ago. Actually Joy was listening to Mind Pump during the early days. She lived up to her name. Yeah. And she contacted us a long time ago and told us she liked our show. And then a little later she told us that we were getting a little too negative on the show and she'd give us feedback. And I really enjoyed her feedback because I respected the way she delivered it. And they're both very, very smart girls. Their podcast has got women. They're pot women. Sorry. I know why I know you get gotta be goddess. Sorry. They're their podcast has got such a good feel like you feel like you're listening to like you're sitting in with your friends. You know they're kind of like the female version of us. They just need one more badass lady. Way less offensive. But yeah, they're totally the really, really good information. Very entertaining to listen to. They both have the roots in CrossFit but they're very much focused on overall health and wellness in all aspects. And they talk about their personal life stories and stuff. And so we had this podcast with them where they actually came down to Mind Pump Media headquarters and we all sat around and had just great conversation. And it got kind of deep. At one point, I think we asked Joy to like break you down, Adam. Remember that? Oh yeah. What a crazy story too. She dove into me. Yeah. It wasn't awkward at all. Those that don't know, I have, to watch you guys squirm over it was pretty crazy. Just so happened, this has never happened. It's crazy, right? She decides to dive into my childhood stuff. And those that have been listening to podcasts for a long time know that I've, my real dad committed suicide. My mom then married into an abusive relationship. We'll check this out. My stepfather, this is where it gets awkward. This was so, oh my God, uncomfortable. My stepfather who happens to be the one, a part of that abusive relationship just so happened to drop by Mind Pump Media for his first ever live show that he's ever watched. First time ever. He was literally, let me explain. Let me paint a picture. He was sitting watching us. Meanwhile, she has no idea who he is. Yeah. She didn't know he was, she didn't know he was, he was my dad. And she's a fan of the show. So she's like, well, you know, Adam, I know you had a tough childhood and you know, your mom was an abusive relationship and this and that. And I'm like, Oh fuck, he's right there. And he, I mean, he was, I mean, I've only met him a couple times. He was like a great guy. And you guys seem to have, you know, better, I don't know. But anyway, it was very, very uncomfortable. Yeah. So those that are listening to this episode, just imagine that and imagine all of us sitting in the room at that time and how crazy that is, that she had no idea who he was and the fact that he's never, ever listened, not one episode out of 500 episodes. He just so happened to be here. I invited him to drop in and then that came out. So I thought that was pretty wild. We talked a lot about topics that they were very interested in, you know, things that we've talked about in the past when real depth like relationships of food, exercise, how we treat our bodies. Oh, we come right out the gates on CrossFit right away. We talk about CrossFit. We call the elephant elephant in the room right out the gates. And I mean, we have a lot of respect for these two girls. Love them. Definitely we'll be doing another podcast with them at some point in the future. So you can find their website is girlsgonwadwodpodcast.com. Oh, and they brought a lawyer in here. Oh, that was great. She was actually very surprised. We have our lawyer with us. I'm like, why? We don't have a bad reputation. We don't have a bad reputation. What? We're not doing anything crazy. Yeah, we'll tell them out. Here, have a beer. Justin had to like put it drugs. Justin had to put on his pants real quick. Yeah, man. Their Instagram is at girlsgonwadpodcast. And that's the name of their podcast, girlsgonwadpodcast. So do us a favor and check them out. Give them a nice little download boost because they deserve it. They've been around for a little while. So without any further ado, here we are talking to Joy and Claire from the Girls Gone Wad podcast. In my head, I have conversations with you guys. But no, I just feel like there's so much that you have opened my eyes to. And of course, I love CrossFit and there's a lot that has done for me. But I think if there's something that I really want to continue to learn is what you guys have taught me is just there's so much more to fitness and there's so much more to like taking care of your body in so many different ways. And so I feel like that if we were to create something, I think that's kind of what I want to do is like, right now I'm kind of like this. And it's just like, what have I done to my body? I'm interested to know what I've done to my body. I'm 39 years old. And I know there's things that I don't want to screw myself by continuing to do the same thing over and over again and compound injuries and what have you. But I think that's the that's I don't know. It's just all I mean, I love hearing your guys perspective because I know we when we first came out and we first opened up, we targeted CrossFit, not because any of us didn't like CrossFit. And we but we knew that I was doing it. Yeah, we had all done it. I mean, we'd all but we also saw the big flaws. And so did people like Kelly Starr and that's why and even Rob Wolf, like these guys built their businesses off the same thing. I remember when we first were going to go see those guys, Mike Pletso, yeah, Rob Wolf, in our heads, there was a part of us that were like nervous. Like, I'm not gonna like it. It's gonna be a little friction. Yeah. When was this? What year was this? It's the last few just months ago. Yeah, yeah. We hung out. We did Rob Wolf already. And and then got Kelly Starr yet. That'll be a good one. Yeah, I look forward to the day we get to meet. But it's I can probably already tell you from all the stuff I've watched on Kelly and he'll probably be just like Rob, just like Mike, which they're not dogmatic about it. No, no, and they actually see all the shit that's wrong with it. And they're trying to be trying to help. And yeah, I don't know. That's what I respected the most, especially like Mike Pletso's like how he was coming into the community. And he wanted to come in and influence instead of, you know, be outside and just talk about the flaws all the time. And, you know, that that was like impactful even for me because, you know, like that's something obviously because Justin I've hammered it probably the most I've hammered it because it you know why is because like that that's my mentality. And so I see myself in every crossfader almost, you know, and what do you mean that's your mentality? My mentality is I want to kill and I want to murder and I want to fucking do this workout, you know, and beat everybody by all means necessary. Yeah, you know, that that's just the mentality that, you know, it fosters at a really, you know, high level. Like I was when even when I was working out in it with my friend, I wanted to my friend was just getting back into fitness and I really wanted to go in there and support him in that process. And so I, you know, I had all these reserves about CrossFit and I went in and did it with him. And we went through these wads together and I actually lasted probably about two or three months. And, you know, even for him, he, he got swept into a lot of the competitive part of it because we both played together and you and I were working. He injured his shoulder 10 plus years ago. I mean, that was you guys are talking about what's what's wrong and what's right. No, not at all. We're just my experience and like why I don't know. I guess why I'm trying to explain why I've probably been the most vocally aggressive, aggressive towards it. Yeah. And I recognize that being fully immersed in it versus, you know, like you have to kind of have that experience of fully drinking the Kool-Aid and like every single day you wake up and all you care about is going in and winning the warmup and being at the top of the whiteboard and but like you can't, that's not a long-term strategy for 99.9% of circulation. And that, you know, I think it was called sport. They just put a goddamn sport after it. That's why I'm passionate about that. Why though? Because it's, we just jumped into this because we can't help it. Because it takes, okay, so it's different. So if I'm, if someone wants to get in better shape and they go play basketball to get in better shape, it's different than come do this workout, this basketball workout for everybody. So it's, it's a different attitude and it's treated differently. So if it's a sport, people respect it differently. They train differently. They understand that it's not, that it's a sport first getting shape second versus getting shape first sport second. And I'll tell you, and I'll, Well, any athlete that's older than 40 plus years will tell you how many imbalances and how fucked they up they are from playing their sport for 20 plus years. It's no, that's kind of what I'm waiting for. Well, well, here's the thing. Here's the thing, like CrossFit in plot, it uses lots and lots of different exercises and movement. So it's not necessarily that it's one dimensional in the movement because you do a lot of pulling, pushing, a lot of great exercise. If you were going to pick one sport that you should play for the rest of your life to try and stay in the best shape, it's probably would mark up there as one of the greatest, but it still is. It's still not optimal. That's just it. And the really, the problem begins and ends with the way that the workouts are programmed. That's really it. It's not the exercises because the exercises are excellent. The intensity, you can leave that up to the individual coaches and people doing it because I've been to facilities where the coaches really monitored intensity. Oh, I have guys that work for me that are brilliant CrossFit coaches and they're, but they're the 1%. And really, they're spending a most their time having to like talk people out of the sport mentality of it. And it's just like, well, it'd be just solved if we called it CrossFit sport. And then there was these gym boxes where there's, you know, these control programming because those are the only ones I see that are doing it well. And I feel like the Mike Blitzos and the Roblox, these guys are trying to help that movement, but it's, it's growing so fast. It can't keep up. Well, I think the one of the issues maybe them top. Oh, by the way, we're not on mine puppy asshole. Be a fucking good guest. Jesus Christ. I was going to say, I think that that's like been the issue with how fast CrossFit has grown is because when it first started, anyone really could have gone to the CrossFit games. And just in the last three or four years, it's gotten to the point where it's like, you have just as much likelihood of going to the games as you do being a, you know, high school football player who's going to go to the NFL. But six or seven years ago, you could have just started CrossFit in your garage and then gone to the games. And it's that mentality has not caught up with the reality. The people that are doing it haven't realized they still can't go to the games. They still think like I could just walk in and next year be on the podium at the CrossFit games. And so they look at the people who do that. They look at the catch and David's daughters of the world and say like, well, I should train like her because I'm just like her, you know, we're just regular gals going to the gym. And it's like, no, no, she's a genetic freak and has been, you know, she's 23. Like, okay, she just is exuding human growth hormone as she works out. But, you know, so like I'm with no athletic background, I'm not going to be able to walk into the gym and even in five or 10 years be at the CrossFit games. Like I'm just not, that's not going to happen for me. Well, it looks like it's shifting because again, like they're using or working with people like Kelly Starrett, who is a mobility God. I mean, we respect the heck out of him. And I think you're going to start to see changes in programming. Like one of the biggest issues that we've had with programming was inserting Olympic lifts into fatigue based programming, which Olympic lifts and you guys know you do them, right? Extremely technical of all the lifts you could do with a barbell. Nothing comes close to the technicality of an Olympic lift at all. I mean, a squat and a deadlift are very difficult to teach. You can multiply that times a thousand for an Olympic lift. And when you insert it into fatigue based programming, where you're doing it for reps to where you get fatigued. The first thing that happens when you do any exercise that's a fatigue is your form starts to break down, which is okay with some exercises. Yeah, but we, we saw all of us in this room has spent 15 to 20 years trying to teach. I have clients that I've had for 10 years still trying to perfect the deadlift. Like I'm, I, I have to put that much work into all their imbalances just to get them to mechanically move correctly. And that takes years, years with me standing there and helping them like, and so to have these people that are, that are flooding into these boxes and they, all they really want to do is just look like a crossfitter or get in shape like that. And they've heard all these great things. They, there's so many people. It's, to me, it has to change at one point. And I think it's a simple fix. I think it's like, put a fucking sport at the end of CrossFit. So we know that, hey, it's a fucking, it is a bad ass sport. I love it. I think it's awesome. And then I, then we just have another side, which is training programs. And I think someone like, like a Kelly Starrett or Rob Wolf, who have a lot of influence in that community already, and they're very well respected. I think these are the guys that may, may create it, or I would love to be a part of that where you have people that love those type of movements and you set it up in a, in a different manner. It cannot be the way it is right now for the general population to get in shape and be healthy. And to be, to be fair, and we've talked about this before, what CrossFit has done right is pretty, it's pretty remarkable. A lot of good shit. I mean, we worked in gyms. I've been working professionally in a gym now for 20 years, right? And it wasn't that long ago. No joke. Like, I mean, you guys are both fit and you've been working out for a long time. It wasn't that long ago that the squat rack had dust on it. Like nobody did a squat. So true. Women did not touch barbell. It never did a deadlift. Oh gosh. Yeah. And CrossFit comes along and single-handedly, because bodybuilding wasn't doing it, no one else was doing it. Single-handedly got people to look at these very effective lifts. And better than any, like again, I've been in the commercial fitness industry who has been advertising to women for a long time because they recognized early on that those are your main consumers. That's going to be your best consumer. Most marketers have noticed this and they've marketed to women over and over again. CrossFit actually better than anybody has sold resistance training to women. They've made it like, lift weights, build muscle, you look great and it's awesome. Which is an amazing message that we should have been giving to people a long time ago. It was so condescending. I want to give them like huge credit for taking people from just showing up at a gym and going through a workout to actually building a community and people that care that you're inside the gym and they're all supportive. And like, you didn't see that for a long time. Like people, it was just like everybody went into the gym and that was their thing. Yeah. Like I grew up going to 24-hour fitness and working out in the gym and going and teaching classes even and just people go in, you don't really know their names and then they leave and you're like, okay, bye, see you tomorrow. And no one really, in a way, CrossFit for us, at least classes, CrossFit classes keep us accountable because we'll go in and you have the same group where you're working out with every morning and then you leave or if you're not there two days a week, everyone's like, where were you? And so you feel that sense of community. But like it's really weird for me now to go into like an orange theory class or I haven't been at 24-hour fitness in forever, but like no one talks to each other. This is so weird now because you go in and you have that community, which I agree with you is huge plus. But yeah, I mean, in the business of fitness, if you can tap into that, you're going to be very successful. I remember curves, you guys remember curves? Okay. Curves tapped into that and curves. I remember because we were in upper management for 24-hour fitness. So we were in the fastest growing fitness organization in the world, right? So we're in the middle of that whole tornado of like what's working and what's not working. Here we are in meeting after meeting discussing how we can penetrate this particular part of the market, which won't even walk into our gyms. They won't even go in. And so we try everything. We tried. You guys were waiting for a sexual joke to happen. I was waiting. I saw your face. So disappointed. I loved it you. I know. I know. So maybe later. We were trying so hard to get into that market and here comes curves and really what they did is they just kind of created this environment. It was a crappy, let me work out. It was good for starters. It was not even good for starters. It was a horror. It blew up. Come on, bro. That was the epitome of the worst programming ever that had been delivered to millions of people. But they exploded. They went from zero to like 500 machines in a circle and then do it again. Pneumatic equipment. And this is why two never ever, ever, ever will group training be ideal for an individual. And that's the bottom line you just can't. And one of the greatest challenges that we have right now and that's why what we're doing is not even close to being done is, okay, we build this podcast and first of all, we all talk all the bull, all how much bullshits in the supplement industry. So no supplements. Which, by the way, I love when you guys talk about that because it's also like, you've saved me so much money. And I love that recently just did an episode where you talked about like, you're like, just go buy some caffeine or creating and then make your own. I was like, oh my gosh, this is brilliant. Yeah, go ahead. So and that's right. So we can't get any money there. And anybody who's been in fitness long enough knows that the best way to make money in this industry is through supplements. You need something or some sort of an EFT model where you have a membership fee every month. So one of the hardest things for us was, okay, how do we create programs? Because we're selling to the masses. That's individualized. If that's a big part of our message. So that is the hardest thing about what we do right now. But that's why what's so special about what we do with maps is that we encourage people to actually modify and we provide the tools to do that virtually. And that's why we're not there yet, right? We're close. We still have another program that's coming out to get really detailed. So that way, somebody who starts our program could be going along and they feel an ache or they notice this and it doesn't feel right to them. And instead of just falling through the program not changing, there'll be places to tell them, boom, this is where you now look go here. And then we'll have all these ways for them to assess themselves. And so we're trying to create something as individualized as possible. And that's what's so challenging when you're talking to the masses and not one on one. Well, because the masses is also looking for what everyone else is doing, right? So I think one of the things too that's really hard for me to and just going back to all the things I've heard you guys say is that it was hard for me to hear like you should back off sometimes. Like that's really hard when you come from a mentality of like you have to do more. More is better. And but then you end up screwing yourself and your body. I mean, I want to get into a conversation with you too about nutrition like later about like hormones and crap of like doing the body competitions or the fitness competitions. But like that's a mentality for women that we feel like we have to do more in order to achieve the perfect body. It's 100% correct. It's exercise. And this is what we're truly the most passionate about really. I mean, if you listen to our podcast, you can hear our moods change. There's times when we're pissed off and we get real negative. In fact, I think your message is just one point. Yeah. And but really what we're truly, truly passionate about is sending the right message that is going to get people in to fitness the right way. And that's going to give them long term health and total wellness, not just wellness of the body in terms of the aesthetic, but wellness of the mind and feeling good about yourself. Because that's what lasts forever. And when it comes to exercise, a lot of people, men and women, they treat exercise many times as a punishment. And what I mean by that is like, oh gosh, yesterday I ate all that cake at that party. I'm going to go to the gym and beat myself up and just burn it off. Or God, I'm looking, you know, they look in the mirror and I look like shit. I need to go work out. That's it. I'm going to be motivated to work out because I look horrible. And the way you treat your body when you hate it is completely different than the way you treat your body when you love it. And the difference in the way you train is it's dramatic. It's the difference between going to the gym and exhausting yourself on cardio for hours at a time and doing these movements that you think are going to, you know, change your butt or whatever you hate about yourself versus going into the gym and listening to your body. Because sometimes what you need to go and what you need to do when you go to the gym, I mean, you come home from work, you're exhausted, you're stressed out, maybe you have a young child at home, you're not getting any sleep. Maybe you need to go to the gym, sit in the aerobics class and meditate by yourself. In reality, that's going to benefit your body more at that moment, but you're not going to do that if you hate yourself. You're going to want to punish yourself. I think two things there. When we talk a lot about how people see food and exercise as a transaction and for us, we talk all the time. Eating is not a transaction. You need to eat because you love your body and you want to fuel it and you want to be good to it. And then you exercise for the same reason. And like, yes, nutrition is obviously a part of that. And it's a part of any effective workout program, but you can't have them intrinsically tied together. You need to just view them a separate thing still. You need to not think, oh, today's a rest day, so I don't get any carbs. Your body needs carbs. There's no such thing as a good food or a bad food, and it shouldn't be tied to what you're doing. I think the second thing that we have started talking a little bit about and that I think is kind of the next wave for us is like, how do you change your body while still loving what it is right now? How can you appreciate what you have and still honor the fact that you want to make it better? I'm lucky enough to have a girlfriend that's very, very in tune with this side of wellness. And we can sit there and we can have these deep conversations about this. And we talked about that exact thing because you can be objective about your body and you can have a body image that you don't connect to your self image, which is you can make them separate, which is good, right? You can look at your body and say, here's some parts that I want to work on, but it's not going to change my self image. And we were talking about like, okay, what if someone wants to lose weight or wants to change how they look? How do they do that while loving their body at the same time? And it got to this point here where we started talking about, okay, let's pretend for a second that you truly love your body. And what I mean by love your body is the way you would love your child. Like you just want them to be feel good and be healthy. You feed your child according to that. You don't feed your child according to your fat or your skinny or you need, you know, those types of things. If you do your horrible and if you're right, let's hope not. So if you truly love your body, how would you? That's a very good point. It's a very good point right there because that's a fucking battle in itself right there. How would you eat if you did? How would you treat your body physically? How would you exercise? And what is the physical representation of somebody that is at peace with themselves and loves themselves? And that physical representation looks like a fit, lean individual. It is literally a side effect of those things. It is not the, that is, that ends up not even being the goal. It just becomes a reflection. We had yesterday, we had the honor of having Paul check in here. And if you're not familiar he's like a godfather in fitness and wellness and he's just, he can be out there, but he is absolutely brilliant. And he was talking about what he does before he eats. We had dinner with him the night before and I noticed when he'd get his food, he put it in front of him. He put his hands around the food. Mind you, he's not a religious person. So if you don't know who he is, he's not religious at all to see him do this was he puts his hands around the food. He puts his head down and kind of looks at it and he comes up and he starts eating. And so you're like, okay, and you kind of expect Paul to do, you know, off the wall kind of stuff. So I asked him about it and he says, oh, well, I have a conversation with the food, which is classic Paul say something like that. And he says, lost everybody. Just 80% immediately. And he says, you know, I asked the food if, you know, I thank the food for this energy transfer. I asked my body and I check with my body if this is the right food for it and what I'm going to get from it. And he has this whole conversation, which is a lot like prayer. And it kind of dawned on me that, you know, cultures all over the world for thousands of years have prayed over food. And is it because, and they've benefited from it. That's why it's part of their culture. And Paul does it and it benefits him. And I thought to myself, it's not necessarily the prayer or the words. All he's doing is he's slowing down and he's asking himself, his true self, is this what my body wants? Now think about that for a second. If we did that all the time, it would be rare that we would have foods that are probably not serving us. Now, if I'm at my daughter's birthday party and I'm celebrating her, you know, her seventh birthday and, you know, we make a cake and I may do that over the food and that cake, I'm going to eat it. You know, this is, that food at that point doesn't necessarily mean nutrition and nutrients. At that moment means celebrating what's happening here, right? With the birthday. But most of the time, that's not the case. Most of the time I'm eating dinner, I'm, you know, maybe I'm with friends, but usually I'm not. I'm with my girlfriend or whatever. If I take the time in front of my food to do something like that, my own version of it, whatever it is, I'm much more likely to make a food choice that is quote unquote the right food choice. Now, the problem with this message is that it's so, the problem with this message is it's so, it's too far for most people and they're not, they're not ready for that level of awareness. Like, then that's why Paul literally either, if you, if you listen to Paul Jack, either one, you are just like glued to every word he says because it's so powerful for you, or you turn, you turn them off immediately because he's touching, he's touching areas you don't want to. Well, you described just that one interaction of him doing that with his food and it was the first thing all of you said like, oh, okay, weirdo. Right. And because you know that's what everybody's thinking. Yeah. And we, and that's why we have to preface, preface it like that because right, right away you can't help but think that. But when you actually just let the man talk and, you know, and think open-mindedly like the way he's communicating, the man's brilliant and he's been doing, he's been talking about shit way before the science has came out. It's just his language he uses. Yeah. And Sal brought that up, you know, if he can be able to like almost interpret for him, you know, it's a lot easier for people like he's not worldwide for a reason because that it's just people and I, and this is where I hope Mind Pump really helps. And this is why the show has to go with the program is because if we're talking about trying to get individualized with people, we all know that even our badass programming and all the best stuff that's out there, nothing is more powerful than helping people connect the dots with the relationship with food, the relationship with their body and relationship with exercise. Those fucking three things will change everybody's life when they put that together. But most people spend their whole lives just trying to figure out one or two of them. Well, the thing that I remember when I first started listening to you guys was, okay, no offense, I was kind of like, all right, they're going to like try to get us to do some freaking bodybuilding workouts. I'm just not really geared towards women. They're just going to be so like myopic on like these are the moves you need to do. And then I started listening to you further. And first of all, I've been listening to you since you guys first started. So it's kind of, it's so cool to see you guys. Oh, shit. I'm like an OG. And she is, and you know what, she's actually given me feedback on our show that I truly appreciate. You tell me about that. I was like, oh, I always love that like healthy criticism. Well, you're a big reason why you're a very big reason why we started really self because let's be honest, we get thousands of people fucking telling us what we're doing wrong. You know, everybody wants everybody wants everybody wants to tell us what we're not doing and what we need to do. So we get that a lot. But when we received that from you, we thought we had a lot of respect already for what you guys were doing. And each of us kind of sat in the room said like, okay, we need to really be aware of this. And we now have this large platform, we're affecting a lot of people that look up to us and direct them. And like, we have to really evaluate what are we letting our outside life bleed into our message that we know is so important. And we all checked ourselves that like, as much as we thought those episodes were powerful and they got a point across, they also had an energy about them that we don't believe like we don't we don't believe in that. But I knew where you were going, what I'm referring to was there was so many episodes at first where I was like, I it wasn't so much a turn off as it was like, well, I know what they're against, but what are they for? And so that's kind of the piece where I was like, Hey, guys, can you remind us a little like two cents here? But like, that's kind of as I stuck with it, because I knew I was like, I know where they're going with this, I just want to I want to keep listening. And that's the evolution that I saw where I was like, wow, they're just they're opening their minds to so many things that are out there that people you're not going to change anyone's mind. Like, it's like the equivalent of Facebook, all the political posts, like no one's going to change their mind by reading your posts and be like, Oh, my gosh, now I'm going to that's such a great point. You know what I mean? Like, wow, I think I'm going to go register as a Democrat today. Like, that's just not going to happen. So like, I knew where you guys were going with it. But like, I saw the evolution, I'm like, this is really cool, because now it has helped me. And it's mostly like, I know how smart you all are, you have like collective knowledge that's years and years, but like the piece that was missing for me at the beginning and how I've seen you evolve is like, there's so much out there that you want to just, you want to explore it and you want to be open-minded to it and like welcome people in that way instead of just like, you don't want to just be another person that's preaching whatever Kool-Aid you're selling. We had a lot of, especially when we first started, there was a lot of anger towards an industry that hasn't served people well at all. And I know it's a consumer-driven industry. I do understand that. And I understand that we're the ones that create this industry that advertises towards our insecurities, makes us feel shitty. I mean, who honestly can go through a fitness magazine and feel good about themselves? I mean, very few people, you go through it and you end up feeling shitty. You know, they have studies now to show this, that when people go through social media and they look at fitness posts, they feel worse about themselves. And so we were angry about a lot of this. We were angry about the lies, partly because we worked in the industry, but a big part of it, I'll be honest with you, is we were victims of it. We make no qualms about talking about the insecurities that drove us to exercise them. And I was a painfully skinny kid who felt very inadequate, didn't feel very, you know, I, my father was this athletic strong guy and here I was this bookworm. And I got into lifting weights because I thought it would turn me into something that I thought I needed to be. And when you're that kid and you're impressionable and you feel that way and you look in these advertisements and it's like, and it says, you know, take these five bottles of pills and you'll look like this and here's how you become manly and house. And I spent thousands and thousands of dollars on supplements that did nothing to me, which except maybe contribute to autoimmune issues that I developed later on as an adult. And then as a trainer working with clients who've come to me in this particular, in the same situation, we were angry. And so the first, you know, 50 episodes was calling people out. And, you know, our theme when we first started was zero fucks. That was our hashtag, right? And it was literally, it was this shock and awe approach as a business strategy. When you look at it, I mean, we were trying, we were so like 10 of those shirts. If we're keeping it, if we're keeping it real, we can't, we don't want to be peddling shit. We want, we don't want to, we don't want to do what everybody's done before us. So, but we did have to get attention, you know. And so the kind of just like, ah, the very beginning was that was look at us. So, and then let us kind of explain things to you. So I definitely think. And we don't have very good filters. So, you know, what's on our mind tends to come out. It's not working. Thank God it worked. Yeah. But it was really good. And I think I'm just a geek that way where I've like, I'm listening to you guys talk about all this stuff. And I remember Adam, I feel like you used to be more like guarded and now you're just like an open book talking about everything with your childhood. And so what's crazy is that, I mean, that's my personality. When we started, I had to be this like. You got a wine and dynamite. Well, no, I had to be, I had to be like this bodybuilder. I had to be the bodybuilder guy. And, you know, I remember when we had Craig, he was with us for the first and that never worked out. And it just, it. Craig was another host that we first started with. Imagine the testosterone. You guys know Craig, right? Craig Capurso, bodybuilding.com. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. So buddy of ours, we've done a few episodes with him where we've interviewed him, but we actually started with him. And the dynamic just didn't work. And, but we knew that like that bodybuilding world was so important that we got ahold of it because they're just as fucking bad too. I mean, if they're the worst, I think they're the worst as far as extremes. And I really saw this when I went through the whole, you know, competitive world and it blew my mind what I had seen. And I knew we needed that. And I kind of wanted to use Craig's clout to help us in that direction because he had, he had similar views as we did. And so it was, but it didn't work. And so I had to kind of take on this voice of, you know, the bodybuilder side, even though I never really felt that way. So part of that was, I was kind of over sharing the part of me that really wasn't completely, what you guys have seen is you've, you've seen really me now because you've watched, you've listened for this long, like even to my Instagram, like my Instagram was built as a business. I started the day I started it, I turned it on, not because I wanted to connect to friends and talk to people. I started it because I had a plan to build a social media business. So from the very moment, everything you ever saw me post, write about, talk about, I was trying to learn how to deliver my message. And the irony of all of it is it's come full, what I grew and built my little business off of originally, it was totally not me and my personality was what I needed to get the attention of others. I knew that if I put myself on this platform and showed you that I could change my physique like that, that you would respect me because unfortunately, they get so much, that's the currency that people, you know, well, and the irony of that is that is what you hate about the fitness industry. Yeah. And I got it. And so, which is also like what people like scratch their head, they think like I've evolved extra hated. They thought I evolved like during the show, like, for example, I worked for Orange Theory, like that doesn't make sense. I'm sitting here talking to you guys about what I see about group training. It's impossible. So why would I go work for that? Well, I went and worked for a company like that, knowing that I could influence the community within that gym. It's a small box. I saw the direction of where it was going. I knew I could influence those people. And then we started doing seminars within that. And they actually stopped us from doing that. Now, to be clear, that's not to say there hasn't been a tremendous amount of growth from all of us as we've done the show. In the last two years, I've grown more in the last two years than I did in the previous three. So I'm not saying that I didn't. I'm just saying that who I really am and like that a lot of those things or your growth minded from day one. That's absolutely. That's that's my personality. And I feel like I finally got to be me towards the end. And I but I had to put on this like bodybuilder face for everybody. And I used to tell these guys behind scenes. I would be like, he's actually getting angry because we would get messages from people. And they would be think they would say things like calling Adam like a bro or you know, whatever. And he get really angry. But like, well, this is he's like, people think that that's the only side. Like that's cute. You're trying that move. You know, like, like you don't know anything about mobility or sports performance and you're just a bodybuilder. It's okay because I've we've all known that this is and this is why this works with the three of us is that and Doug four of us that the mission is much bigger than any of us individually. And so all of us are willing to take criticism one way or have to take on a role to get a message because we know that the biggest way we can impact people is going to be by helping them connect those dots we talked about. Because I think that's the psychological part of being healthy and being in shape is is that is the part it's everything. It's a food part is like it's so easy after that. Okay, so my question for you then taking it back to our original conversation about CrossFit. What do you think needs to change day to day in CrossFit boxes for that to become the goal? So with number one, take the programming eliminate this is very simple. Take the Olympic lifts and treat them like their own speciality and don't insert them into fatigue based programming. So what I was saying earlier is as you fatigue form starts to break down and some exercises that's okay when form breaks down a little bit like if I'm doing curls or if I'm doing like a CrossFitters do a lot or a lot of curls or even an overhead press like if I get fatigued in my form breaks down a little bit, it doesn't go from safe to super dangerous or sit up or an air squat. But Olympic lifts, they go from safe to dangerous very quickly. So that's number one. Number two, that's purely like a safety, mechanical, totally a safety thing because every single person I've trained that's come and been injured from CrossFit. That's how they got injured was from the fatigue based, you know, stuff with the Olympic lifts or the or power movements like box jumps when they're fatigued and then they fall or hit their shins or whatever. Now the second thing I would say with CrossFit is really is because CrossFit is a loose affiliation, a lot of people don't know this, but the CrossFit box is they're franchise, but they're very it's a very loose type of franchise. So they're very autonomous. They have a lot of kind of freedom and so they can do actually anything they want. Pretty much there needs to be some leadership there to organize so everybody's on the same page and they're all which is what we talked about. Yeah, I'd say that would be a huge benefit. This is why we really liked him because he does see this. Now the cool thing is here's the good and the bad. The good is I like things to be freeing for laboratories of experiment to happen. I like that because the best will rise and grow and the horrible ones will shut down, which is good. But the bad part about it from a business standpoint is it's under the umbrella of CrossFit and in the name, right? And if you have a lot of fails, which you're going to have when you have that much freedom, it could tarnish and damage the name of CrossFit, which could damage the brand. So imagine what it's done, right? Right? Like imagine if McDonald's had this real loose franchise where this McDonald's over here could serve, you know, sell spaghetti and blankets. Exactly. You know, it's funny. Did you watch the documentary? Did you watch the Ray Kroc documentary? No, that's from Mitch Hedberg. Oh, okay. I'm not taking credit for that. Oh, that guy's a legend. So McDonald's actually ran into that when they first started franchising. Was that exact thing? You had some McDonald's open up and they were selling like chicken wings and, you know, and biscuits. And then this guy over here. So they kind of streamlined that. So a little bit of that needs to happen. But I, so far from observing CrossFit and the direction it's going, it looks like it's not, it looks like it's moving forward in a good way. It doesn't look like it's going backwards and it definitely doesn't look like it's stagnant. It needs to separate from sport. I feel like I had to keep. What does that look like on a date? So that's what I'm asking. So like I hear you and I agree with you. But like if I'm walking into a CrossFit gym and I'm, you know, average Claire over here, like middle of the whiteboard, stealing my crap. What does it mean for me? What it means for you is like that will never exist for you again, unless you are wanting to compete in the sport of CrossFit. And if so, if you're just wanting to get in shape, then the programming looks completely different. It can't look anything like it looks like, but it has dead lifts, it has squads, it has overhead press, all the shit you like. But it's taught, it's taught to you in the right manner. So if you, if you come in and you're like, I love this CrossFit thing. Is it the movement you like? Or is it the crazy classic? And this is where people, this is the awareness thing where you have to, you have to ask yourself is, what entertainment? What are you there? What is it that's really drawing, drawing to you? And is that whatever that is? Okay. Ask yourself and, and you know, damn well, especially if you listen to our show, is it what is what's best for my body? And then you go from there. Yes. I was just going to say, like that's something that's evolved for me personally, where I have, originally I started CrossFit and it's like, oh, I want to get in shape and oh, I want to be a badass and I want to go, go, go, go, go. I want to PR every single day. I want to PR every single day. Joey was real concerned about winning the warm up. Always. Very competitive. Beating all the boys. This is why you're an awesome person. I should have listened to talk about this. Were you, were you an athlete before you ever, you were an athlete growing up, right? And competing? I was a dancer. A dancer. Well. But you were a marathon, you were a, had run a lot of marathons and it had like, and you have a very competitive personality. I was going to say a better question to ask would be, it's very active that way. I was doing everything and anything. And you look, I mean, you look like, I mean, if I, if I, I can tell these shoulders are for my father. So I didn't really, you know, I can lift. Oh, we went to Costa Rica a couple of weeks ago and like people met on the, on the like side of the road. We're like, oh, what are they? Like even in another country, people can't ignore Joey's shoulders. That doesn't happen to me, unfortunately. So you flex for them. Yeah, I got it. Yeah. So, but starting CrossFit was one of those things where my mentality was, I just want to kick the shit out of these workouts and I want to beat everyone and I want to be the first, you know, the top person on the white board. And I'm still like it pissed on workouts where like they didn't take a score and she'd be like, well, how do I know? Like, how do other people know what I did today? I was so identified. Yeah, I was nutty. And, and so over the years, I don't know if it's age. I don't know if it's just like it kind of gets old and I'm not saying again, like we have a podcast about CrossFit. So I'm not like shitting on it, but, but it's more of that the mentality around it is exhausting. Like I'm kind of tired now and I'm like, so now I go in, but it's also tied to my insecurities in the past of like body image and trying to attain some certain physique. And then we've just been recently talking on our show about how I kind of came to this realization that I'm like, I've been fucking working my ass off since I was 20 in the gym, running, whatever, and looking at workouts as the transaction with food. And what I came to realize is like, that's just not healthy. And I don't want to come to the gym with that mentality anymore, because it's just, it's just not good for me. And, and I have to credit you guys too for helping me see that because that was just a mind shift for me of just working out is not a punishment. And also that I was spending so much time just beating the shit out of myself mentally and physically, and my body wasn't changing. And then I was like, well, do I need, there's like, there's always certain parts of our bodies that we don't like, right? And so that was the piece where I'm like, I just don't want to do this anymore. And, you know, while I love it for working out, I don't go in with the same veracity or like the same, you know, feeling of I have to kick everyone's ass or I have to like lift more weight. I just, I'm trying to be more intuitive. I think it's important to, to say though that that, that I'm going to go in and beat myself up attitude is not exclusive to CrossFit. So that it happens in all things in spin class, step class. And I think it's also really like, that's the mentality that you get. I mean, I know I'm sure it's there for men as well, but like for women, you're very much taught, like, you have to earn your meals. Like you are, you know, the only reason that you're allowed to eat is because you cheat. Right. Exactly. Well, even just like, if, you know, as a woman, it's almost like expected that you're on a diet, right? It's almost expected that you hate your body. It's almost expected that like, there's something about you that you are currently trying to change in some way. And kind of to say, you know, to take it back to like, you were saying you got to this point where you're like, my body is not changing. And then also to what we were saying earlier about like, if you were to really honor your body and feed it well and listen to what it wants, that looks like just ends up looking like a healthy, lean person. One thing that like, so I have an 18 month old, my body obviously in the last two years has gone through a ridiculous amount of change. And part of that is telling now the story of like, you get to a point where you just have to decide that your body tells a story of where you are in your life and what your priorities are. And it's like, my priorities right now aren't to go in the gym and kick everybody's ass. Like my priorities are to be at home with my son and are to have, you know, home cooked meals and get a little bit of extra sleep. Everyone's around instead of getting up and going to the gym. And like, if that means that I weigh 10 more pounds than I feel like I quote unquote should, then that's the story of my life in this moment. It is. And let me ask you this. While you were pregnant, did you love your body more or hate your body more? Cause I've noticed with my clients when they're pregnant, they're, it's either one or the other. I actually, I feel like I felt pretty neutral. I will also say that I went through some really serious postpartum depression. And if I look back on it, I, that definitely started during my pregnancy. And so I didn't feel, I don't, I didn't have as quite like the same, like a serial pregnancy experience that I think a lot of people have of like, Oh my God, you know, I'm, I'm the sacred vessel. I didn't. I went through a class like that. I am not that far away. Oh, you're so like Justin. That's awesome. Yes. So thank you. I'm like, she's not a hugger. Not a hugger. Like I hugged us. I'm hugging the shit out of you before you leave then. You already did. I believe we hugged you. Everyone's like hugging out of the kids. And we're touching. But I just am like, I'm not in my body in that way. And I always just sort of, you know, I like, I'm not the type of person. I never, you know, I don't believe in like soulmates. I don't believe in like, you know, all that kind of stuff. Touchy-feely shit. I'm not a touchy-feely person. I'm just really not. Forget about it. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not there. And I'm really, I'm not like a hippie to be crunchy person. You were all as, you were also raised with hippie dippies. Oh my gosh. Which is why she's... Oh, so you were the bell. See, I grew up in San Cruz, so. Boulder. There we go. Oh, Boulder. Oh, high five. Yeah. Um, so yeah, like I just grew up all around. Her dad, her dad invented celestial seasonings. So my dad started celestial seasonings. So like, really like real Boulder. Really hippie. Like real hippie Boulder. Real, real deal. And like my godmother is an herbalist. Like guys, like I didn't go to the doctor as a kid. I went to the chiropractor. Like anyway, that's a whole other episode. Justin's real excited. In house. So, so crunchy. You know the first day that I met him, I told him, I said the first words in my mouth where I hate chiropractors. Yeah. And he's like, he had to eat that. But instantly when we over, because he looked back at me, he looked at me too. Welcome Dr. Brink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, all that to say that like I just, I don't think I really had that experience in my body before. And, but then prior to that, I was kind of in that same boat as Joy is like, no matter what I did, I weighed 125 pounds. I'm five three. Like that was my body. And then I got pregnant. Obviously all of that changed. And it hasn't gone back. And so in the last, you know, year and a half having to reevaluate my relationship with my body of like, you never get your body, quote unquote, get it back. And just going through that transformation of like, okay, what does it mean to love my body now? And what does it mean to make choices that I feel like to your guys's point is like, this is how I honor my body in this moment. But that doesn't necessarily mean that my goal is to be this like lean machine. And I think that that is sometimes what gets lost in that conversation is like, people assume that if you're making those choices that is based on the goal to be this like lean athletic machine. That doesn't necessarily isn't true for everyone. This is how CrossFit works as a sport because sometimes it will. There's nothing wrong with you setting a goal that, you know what? I'm 35 years old this year. I'm going to get in the baddest shape ever. I'm going to do all these things. And you set a goal. It's like what I did with competing. I knew damn well going into that. I was never going to, I wanted to get out of it as soon as I could. But yeah, I set a goal that I watch me show these motherfuckers. It was an isolated experience. Absolutely. And, and I would never ever tell somebody they should eat and live like that on a regular basis ever. I would never tell anybody that. But it's the freaking social media crap. I feel like it's just exacerbated the problem. So like, 100%. So like, I just want to give an example too of like, you guys love shreds. Totally shreds for life. For life. So the, I think I asked a question a couple of weeks ago of like, how do you coach someone who has an unrealistic goal? Because that comes into play for me personally of like, I think I had an unrealistic goal on myself of like what I wanted to look like. Now to take a little bit of background is Claire and I started counting macros like a year and a half ago, right? And just, I don't know, we, you wanted to really zone in for after. Yeah. It was in like kind of the peak of my postpartum depression and I was like, I just need something to like, ground me during the day. I was like, not even two months postpartum. So I was still at home and yeah, I needed like an anchor. And it was great for that. So food, a lot of times we create food and we treat food like, it's a way we can control a part of our life and make us feel in control when things feel out of control. Having a child is one of the, I have two kids and it's one of the most, it's awesome, but it's also one of the most out of control moments you'll ever experience your entire life. Because nothing is ever the same again. You don't sleep like- Nothing goes as planned. Your house is a fucking mess. You know, all of a sudden it's about that. So it's a very difficult time. And then on top of that, the postpartum depression thing, I did not feel connected to my kid at all. Right. So it was like- And you feel the, did you feel guilt behind it? I felt a lot of guilt about that and I just felt like, what the heck is wrong with me? Like maybe I wasn't supposed to be a mom and like don't get me wrong. You know, I really, my child's name is Miles. I wanted only the best for him, but I did not feel like he was mine. And so throughout all of that, in theory, you have this switch in the back of your mind that's like, but this is worth it because look at this like amazing child who loves me and I love and like, I didn't have that. Well, I think number one, I think it's important that we hurry up and destroy the whole, the societal myth that being a parent is the greatest thing in the world. Yeah. It's hard. Happy Mother's Day. Yes. Oh my God, look at the irony in that. It's true. That was funny. You're gonna take my job. Dad's gonna put a sound effect in right there. Yes, I would love a sound effect right there. Remember that time right there. It's number one, it's very difficult. It sucks a lot of the times. And if you're a woman in particular, you are, you feel guilty or you're led to feel guilty if you say any of that shit. Now dads, we get the little bit of that freedom. Like I could go tell my buddies like, man, it sucks, kid was up. Right. Like when moms start talking like that, you can hear them careful with what they say because I don't want these people to think like, and well, maybe I shouldn't feel this way. Well, it's because then, I mean, and this is a whole other conversation, but then you get that like, that stigma of being like the, you know, the crazy mom who drowns her kids in the bathtub. Yeah. Oh my God. Like one or the other. Right, exactly. Like just because like I did not have any affinity, you know, that doesn't mean that I wanted to throw my kid out the window. But that is kind of like the black and white, especially with new moms is that people, and I think that luckily that conversation is changing in our society right now about like what things new parents really need. But it's sort of like, if you are not in this like, you know, glowing aura of motherhood, then you might as well, then you don't deserve your kid. So I think it's refreshing to hear you say that. My wife went through the same, same process and like really had a hard time. You know, she didn't, she was uncomfortable the whole time. And like, it was, oh, don't you love being pregnant? We try to do that with everything on our part. The word being pregnant is the worst. She was like, ah, get this out of me. I, so you got sitting with your mom, obviously you can see like, I'm a pretty petite person. I would honk the horn of my belly whenever I got in and out of the car, or like, I had a, but everyone was like, you have such a healthy, easy pregnancy. I'm like, yeah, but like I still was carrying around a child in my body. Like that just sucks. It still just, yeah. I think that's what Claire and I try to do a lot of on the podcast is just talk Mary candidly about our lives in that way. That's an awesome story that you, to share that, because that's what people need to hear. Well, women will write us about marriage, about having babies, like cause we lay it all out on the show. We're like, marriage hacks, like we talk about like tricks we plan our husband just to get through the day sometimes. Like, you know, like marriage is hard and relationships are hard. And babies are hard. And being a, yeah, working. So stop the freaking soulmate memes on Facebook. Hashtag, that's right. Hashtag, he's my best friend. I listened solely just to get the playbook. The pull-ups were like, I can't be two steps ahead of her. That's my strategy. I don't tell her, we're gonna punch them or slap them like this. Where you're like, you're going to kill someone. One day this is going to go so wrong. Partner workouts. Hashtag. And now you, yeah. Die in a barbed wire. Stop it. Stop with the small mates. Small mates need to die. And at the same time, if you are one of those people, that's okay. That's great. That's fine. We love you. No, no. No, fuck that shit. Bye. Okay. Stay tired of it. Thanks, Justin. And we're judging you. Yeah. Okay. But one last question, too. So we can tie this up, too, because I really want to get back to the whole diet piece, is like when you have unrealistic goals. And like how you talk to women specifically, because let me tell you this, and I want to hear your thoughts on this, too, Adam, is like, so I started counting macros with Claire, I don't know, whatever. Yeah, Christmas last year. And I'd never done any, I never paid attention to anything I ate, ever. Except for that time you were a vegan. Yeah, whatever. That one time in college. That one time for five years. So it was really interesting for me. I had a lot of resistance going in, but I got to know what it was, and I wasn't like horribly turned off by it, but I lost a ton of fat. I was extremely lean to a point where people would stop me in the grocery store and be like, do you compete? Do you do bodybuilding competitions? And then like, I don't know. It was just, it was, it looked gross. I looked back in pictures and I'm like, holy shit. And so my body was like, fuck you, we're not doing this anymore. I completely rebounded. I gained all the way back, which was like fine. I mean, my body needed it anyway, but it mind screwed me because I thought that my body was supposed to be that way. Just because I started paying attention to what I was eating, my body responded right away. And then when it started to, I lost my sex drive. I lost my period. I was like, just my hormones went to shit. And, but then in my mind, I was like, but why didn't my body stay there? And I was tied to a number and I was tied to how it looked. And then when it went back, I was like pissed. I went through some like major like psychological stress over that crap. And so I feel like there's like, people don't talk about that either because we look at photos and we're like, well, look at her with like 8% body fat. Like, I want to achieve that, but no one's talking about how we aren't supposed to do that. And so when someone comes to you with a goal, like not, not about like, I want to do a show, like out of that realm. But how do you talk to someone about that and make that known that can you just like accept your body? And like, this isn't just a realistic thing, a healthy thing that you should be doing. Well, it's pretty, it's pretty recent that we've considered shredded as a fit and healthy. It's actually quite recent in human history. If you look at, I mean, men can achieve a certain leanness that's healthy and women can achieve a certain leanness that's healthy. And there's individual variances between, in that, but this, especially for women, presenting this shredded six pack striation type look has never been healthy for women and never has. And for anyone who's ever gotten there before, who's a female, you will, you stop your period. Like you said, you lose your sex drive. These are all very strong signals that your body is not doing very well at all. It's not healthy. Now, men can have side effects as well. We just have to get a lot leaner to get there. And you got to understand that like fit and healthy doesn't look extreme. You see what I'm saying? That's just the bottom line. If you see someone that's extreme, that is not what fit and healthy looks like. And then you have to ask yourself why you're... Our boy, you know who just did a great YouTube? Our boy, Jujimufu. I don't know if you guys ever seen him or not. That is the best name ever. Yeah, nobody sounds like a cartoon dog. Well, he hates being called John. Yeah, yeah, he does. So he's the anabolic acrobat. And what I really liked about him when we first met was he was a real smart guy, but he was like a computer engineer. So I can't remember what his job title was, but... Yeah, he worked in a lab, I think. Yeah. And he was just self-taught in the fitness industry. And so he was a pretty damn smart guy, especially for someone who didn't like... That's not his profession. You know what I'm saying? He does it as a hobby on the side. And he just did a YouTube video about that. It was pretty neat. He was going through... He just moved and he was going through his photo album and he was flipping through and he was showing people when he got ready for a magazine. And if you look at him, you'll see he's ripped. He looks amazing pretty much year-round. But he's very real about where he's at right now versus where he was before. And his way he gave his message, I thought it was really good for people to watch just because it was very simple. It wasn't getting into the science behind it. It was just like, listen, you don't want to live that way. To keep your body there is... Your body's unhealthy. It feels this way. It feels that he's naming off all these things that he goes through when he felt that, just like what you were just explaining right now too. And that right there should be your sign. Like I can tell, and my body's telling me, it's like those of us that ignore it because of our insecurity to want to be like someone else or look a certain way. But the feedback you get is what? Awesome. And I feel like... It's amazing. It's amazing. No, but the feedback you get from people I'm saying is like when the feedback you get... Let me rephrase that. The feedback you get from people is like, you look so good. Yeah, you look amazing. Right? Yeah, well... And then that feeds you in that direction. Well, and then I think you see those people who also look like that and you're like, well, this must be the life that they're living. So I guess it's okay. Exactly. And so it's just... Well, now you know where our passion comes from when we get heated, right? Right. Yeah. So this is where... So it drove me crazy when... So when I got... When I first did my transformation, it was from Fat to Fit, like I said, it was the show people. Watch me do this, watch me do it the right way. And I did a whole like documentary on it. That's what started to build my social media. And one of the things that people just are not doing in the bodybuilding community, and this is like... I got to meet like some of the best coaches, coaching the best guys in the industry. So we're all the cover the magazine dudes. I'm hanging out with and I'm talking to and I'm hearing how they program and how they eat and all the stuff they're taking. And I'm going like, holy shit, like all that? And I'm going like, it ain't got... You don't got to do all that for this. Like this... You can get a lot closer than you think to that. So there's this misconception of what you need to do to get in really good shape also. And that's a major part of the problem is there's this extreme mentality and it's really doing more harm than it is good. And you can actually... You can look pretty... I mean, Sal keeps himself the leanest out of all of us, I'd say year round. And if I were to say who eats the most intuitive and doesn't track and doesn't do any of that shit and looks awesome. And I mean, no supplements, no nothing. He stays probably... What do you call it? Like seven, eight percent body fat? Anywhere between seven to 10 usually. And he's not trying to do that. He's like can of sardines in his pocket. Yeah, he's not eating that deep dish. It's again, like your body will reflect that when you approach it in that way. But again, those extremes that you see in the magazines or on Instagram or whatever, they're not... Even those people don't look like that all the time. In fact, you meet some of these bikini athletes. There are. There's some of these guys because there are some of them that stay year round look fricking just diced. But they probably hate their life. And those are like one percent of the actual human being population. Exactly. And I think that's the problem, which is like, we talk about this a ton. This is before and after culture. And there's no conversation about like, what does that actually look like in the day to day? What does that actually look like in your mind of like, do you really want to live the life where you look in the mirror and are pinching your body to see whether or not back to the food you deserve that day? And that is just not... It's not the way to live your life. It just sounds so exhausting. It sucks though, but I don't know if it'll ever change because the way to get people's attention are these crazy transformations and the faster the better. That's the way our minds... I mean, we're always trying to do things quicker and faster and we're going that direction even more. We're becoming more plugged in, more... We're downloading more data faster than we ever have in our lives. We're not going back to... That's what scares us. But yeah, I also see that being a tool for what we want. I also see through social media, I see both sides of the coin, I see it getting worse in some areas and in other areas, realism is starting to pay off. Once realism and really connecting to people on an authentic level becomes more marketable than the fake stuff. Yeah, let us know because... Well, we're working on it. She'll all be rich in this room when that fucking happens, but for the time being, that's the hardest part though. I mean, it's so hard for me not to use my before and after and my... I was going to say that. You could probably post that easily every single day and sell a shit ton of programming. They're back Thursday again. It's how I built my page. I built my page off of that shit. And now you get to really see who I am, but of course, I'm still running a business and it would be stupid for me not to do that. So it's such a struggle I deal with daily. Knowing that I need to do that to get the attention because that's what the fuck everybody wants, but knowing that I'm really not helping, it's like, did you guys see the debate we got on with the doctor yesterday with over the nutrition thing? Mm-hmm. Oh, you guys... Wait, which one was that? On Sal's page, like 300. Oh, yes. Yes, yes. So this doctor posted... I was in a bad mood. This... He's an obesity doctor. You suck. He's an asshole sometimes. He's an obesity doctor. Yeah, that's what... Sal was in an ear... And he would normally not do this, but he did kind of poke at him. And he normally will actually ask a very thought-provoking question. Is that just poking the bear? Yes, and he totally poked him. So that was our bad. So I want to first... I'm prefaced by apologizing for what happened. If you're listening. But the message that we were trying to get across to him was he had this... He had an image and it was... What was it, Sal? Sensible breakfast? So it was... Yeah, it was... It was like drink a Slim Fast shake and then you're going to lose weight. It was the Slim Fast advertising. Is that still the same? Well, you know, he didn't... He wasn't selling Slim Fast, but he was using the same thing. You can't say that. No. It was a legitimate post. But what I was... Okay, he's an obesity doctor. So this is his specialty. Right, he's in theory a medical professional. Yes, okay. And he's putting up there that they should have a shake instead of burger and fries. And I'm like, yeah, no fucking shit, right? And I'm sure those people that are super fat know that. I think they know that if they didn't eat a burger and fry and they had a fucking protein shake, they would make them lose some weight. That is not solving the problem. And actually giving that... And that's not the problem. Exactly. Thank you. So I feel like that, you know, us... And this is where... This is the voice that we're trying to be, especially with them. Like, you don't... You'll never find one of us on some young kid who's trying to figure things out and he's saying stupid shit and we just kind of shake our heads. I'm not going... We're not doing... But I am going to come after a doctor who I feel should know better. And is giving this information because it's in his best interest. It's very predatory. You know, he's putting that out there. And oh, by the way, I have a way isolate formula I just came up with. And, you know, it works well with this philosophy. So it was too convenient, you know, not to really point at that and poke at it. Is that any different than posting the before and after picture knowing you're going to get people in the door that way? Why do you think I struggle? Why do you think I struggle with it? Yeah. That's why it's fucking hard. Like you said, I'd be doing it every week you would see that picture repurposed. I got a million of them sitting on. The only time I did that, I think it was because of episode. They're asking for it again, you know, like because we're remembering like the process of that. But yeah. Hey, you don't have to justify your before and after. I'm just saying that I'm judging you. Fair enough. I'll take that. Yeah, I think with, you know, just the message needs to change a little bit because the message hasn't worked. People are sicker than ever. Obesities higher than ever. People feel worse about themselves than ever before. There's a lot of reasons that, you know, it's funny I was watching something, how, what TV show or movie I was watching the other day where back in the day, I don't know if you guys knew this in fashion. There were only like four seasons. Yeah. Now there's something like 16 or 20 or some ridiculous amount of seasons. Oh yeah. No, no, that's 50. That's the fast fashion thing where it's like you used to actually can like have clothes made and they were your summer clothes and your winter clothes and that was it. And now it's like early spring, mid spring, late spring. Yes. Early summer. And it's like each time you feel like you have to refresh your, you have to not only refresh, but you just look bad if you don't, right? I don't look good. And so you have all these industries that kind of feed into that and fitness isn't helping. And I feel like fitness, really true fitness can be the answer. It's a motherfucker when you're a 35 year old to trying to stay in style because you just figured out what the fuck everybody was doing. And then like next week it's all. You're in the wrong season, man, dude. Yeah. Just do like I do and wait for Popa. No, that's why you have a podcast. It doesn't matter where you're wearing. You look like the big Vafi right now. See, thank you. Yeah, we all have faces for radio. We said that. All right. Thank you. Thanks for pointing that out. And you were talking about your very stylish jeans. Yeah. I mean, again, it's, it's the message that we try and try and put across. You know, we were talking about how do you talk to the person who that's their goal? You know, I had a conversation with a client. I'll never forget. It was very simple, but it was quite mind blowing to her. She asked me, she said, Sal, what kind of cardio should I do in the morning? And I said, okay, well, what are your options? She's like, well, I can do Stairmaster. I can run. I can get on the bike or I don't know, maybe yoga. And I said, well, which one do you like the most? And she's like, well, I don't know. Just tell me the one that burns the most calories. I said, the one that's going to be the most effective is the one that you like. And she was a little bit kind of blown by like mind-blowing. Like, what do you mean? Like, don't you want to tell me the one that I'm going to burn the most calories? And I had to teach her, you know, how to approach fitness in a way that was going to really work for someone because anybody can get in shape in 30 to 60 days. But can you stay that way forever? And not just what you think the aesthetic form should look like, but where you're actually at peace with yourself, where you... And it's a great place to be, you know? It's a really great place to be to walk in the gym and should be like, man, I feel... Well, the problem there's two ends of the spectrum right now. You have the like super woo-woo hippie, like he sounds like sometimes when he talks. And then you have the extreme, which is what I was living, the bodybuilder world. And it's like, there's their polar opposites right now. And there's really a way to kind of live in the middle. You can have a bad-ass aesthetic physique and be strong as a motherfucker and hit PR still and do all that, but you can also meditate. Well, and I think it takes practice though to get to that point of like truly listening to your body. Like people all the time used to tell me like, oh, just listen to your body. I'm like, what am I listening for? You know, like that's not something like if you're new to working out or you're new, you know, you do in a lot of ways need somebody to tell you, this is what you need to do just to get started because you don't have that background of knowing, okay, this is what it actually feels like for my body to feel good. And so you don't know how to get there. So, you know, when you talk about feeling the signals, okay, imagine you're trying to go to sleep. Now, can you try really hard to go to sleep? And will that make you sleep faster? Right now. No, you just go to sleep. And so really feeling the signals that your body's telling you isn't about trying really hard to feel the signal. Once you get past the bowel movement and all that stuff. Exactly. Yeah. It's about- You can start listening to other things. Yeah. It's about just being quiet for a second and just being in the present and then watch what happens. And it sounds simple. It's very difficult to do because everything we do, we have to try real hard to do, but it doesn't work that way. I can't sit there and try to get connected. Well, and here's the thing. The people that struggle with that the most are the ones that need it the most. And the ones that are practicing and doing it really don't need it that much. Meaning like those hippy, crunchy people that are meditating all the time and breathing really slow and well. Where does the crunchy come from? There's no- There's no like- I always wondered that. Crunchy granola. Yeah. They're not pushing it. They're not going beast mode ever. They're like chilling all the time. And they could use a little beast mode in their life. And the people that are going beast mode all the time and have that competitive athlete mentality, those motherfuckers are the ones that could probably spend a little bit of time meditating. And that it's- And really what we're trying to help people do is connect those dots on who you are because we're all so uniquely different. Also why group stuff is so hard. Also why maps is so challenging for us to our programming, so challenging to try and create it for the masses. And that's why our mission is nowhere near done with even with all the shit we have out there. You mentioned right now like how we talk and start. Do you know that we do this free 30-day of coaching? Okay, I don't know if you guys have seen it or even dug around it or whatever. But that- The concept behind that was, okay, if someone hired me for 30 days and I had to like give them topics every day, how- What am I going to cover? How would I cover that? And we all came up with exactly what we cover. So each day you get a topic. For example, day ones like protein. And then there's bullet points on it. Real simple. So the average person pick up some good information if they need it. Or if you know everything you need to know about it, you move on. Then you go to the next day. Maybe next day is like gut flora. And you're like, okay, actually I don't know a lot about that. Now it has all those bullet points. And you also have all of our YouTubes, all of our podcasts right to the minute where we've talked in detail about it. Plus all the studies that support whatever we discussed. So people can go through this for free for 30 days and they can just absorb what they want or go through all 30 and absorb the entire month. And it's a culmination of 500 episodes that we've done plus 250 YouTube videos that we've all compiled. That's free. And we give it for free because we feel like this is just barely scratching the foundation and surface of what you should go through and learn before you decide any crazy modality of training. Learning about yourself and food. That's 30 days. Check it out. That was a great commercial. I feel like, yeah. It was a great commercial. Yeah, she just jumped that in there. I felt like it pertained to what she was saying. And I agree with you. And I think that it is tough for people who, I think maybe when I was giving you that example, it was maybe a little bit misleading because I think that at the end of the day, you're hard pressed to find an adult who truly has no background, who truly has not tried a bunch of crap before. And I think it's just hard to separate. What's the crap? Well, I think it's hard to separate that within your goals. Like back to Joy's original question of these unrealistic goals. It's hard to tell someone like, here's how to set up your, and we have plenty of thoughts about goal setting. But here's how to set up your goals so that you have a goal that is not just based around this after picture of your physique or is not just based around, but it's actually truly a mindful goal, right? And it's actually truly like, but that is so abstract. Like how can you write a smart goal? Well, here's, it's setting a goal like that is like going to college for whatever degree you're going for and trying to define the job you're going to do, spending more time trying to define the job that you're going to do after you finish degree than actually going through the fucking degree and learning what you need to learn because you'll never get that fucking job if you don't finish those. Not only that, but you might figure out that might not be the job. And give that might exactly. And you find out this is not the path I wanted because you haven't, you haven't, it's also why the other day I popped off about somebody asked a question about competing. And then the question was like, dealing with binging, you know, Adam, when you cut low carb, this that I'm like, I don't think anybody should compete until you start to hone in on the relationship that you have with your body and food. And you should be proving to yourself that you can get in the best shape of your life than you ever have on your own without a coach and someone telling you before you ask somebody to put you through that extreme to get on stage in front of other people. Like, why would you do that? That's like playing a sport and never practicing it and then getting out and playing with the fucking pros. Right. That doesn't make sense. It's not like a couch to 5K program. Yeah, no, exactly. How did you go from that extreme mentality to like chilling the fuck out? That's like, that's not easy. Well, I think I was already, I'm we're all a lot more like, and that's what drew us all together. Like I said, the bodybuilding version of me was never me. Like, that's not, that's, so I turned that on because I'm like, I'm a very driven like business focused person. And I knew that that's what I needed to do with what's going on in the air. Oh, I see. And so you were actually able to separate that in your mind. Totally. And I think that is where a lot of people get. That's why I hired no coaches. I was on no team. I did everything. Like truly outside of like your mentality. Yeah. I wanted to show everybody like that. I had a major chip on my shoulder and I understand the motivation behind it, but like it's hard for me to think that someone could go through that and not internalize it. Yeah. So you have to. I'm a gangster. Yeah, right. You have to consider and he's humble too. Not at all. Not at all. Confident is fun. If I have a fault, which I obviously don't, it's humility. Yeah. You have, you have to, you have to consider Adam had been in fitness, professionally working with lots of people for a while before he ever decided to do that. So he already developed a good relationship with exercising himself before he went into that. Now, if he had not done that, his motivation may be different and a lot of people compete with a motivation that isn't ideal. And in fact, most of the eating disorders are some of the worst relationships we see with food and exercise. Well, it did make me, it made me connect though on another level that as I, so I loved, I'm so appreciative for that experience because it made me connect to people that want that, that are into that so much. I mean, I'll tell you right now, for sure, when I, like someone were to hit me, like top moments in your life, boom, that come out. The one of those is standing after I went pro in Vegas and that feeling and like everybody was looking up at me and just like, oh, like I was at, I was at outside pool. Everybody's climbing on the mass. Oh, it was just the most, it literally was on another level of experience for me. And I was like, whoa, like this- Right. So it's not like you were completely detached from the whole experience. Yeah, no, I was not. I enjoyed every fucking minute of all of that. And I got, I got how that could be addictive. Attention! Yes! And you can, and you can identify with that really easily. And man, that's a, and then where I felt really bad is on Instagram and social media shit, like we put this, this false perception out. So like when I started meeting all these, half these kids live with their parents still and they're like, cause that's the only way they, cause you can't, there's no money in it. Right. But they put this lifestyle, you know, they're driving around their dad's BMW or some bullshit or they rented it for the weekend and they put the, all of the best of their life, which I believe we're all guilty of, right? Including myself. It's, you don't want to put the worst of you out on there. So most of what we put out on the, on the social media world for others to see of us is the best parts of our life. And no one does it, I think, better than the fitness people. Like they post these, this, like make fitness, like so, ah, it's so awesome in this. And they glamorize the fuck out of everything. And then they got all, now you have these, this younger generation coming up, thinking like, oh man, all I got to do is compete in a show, get ripped. And then everybody's going to follow me and then I get sponsors. I'm going to make all this money. It's like such a false perception. It's so off and there's so many people that are trapped in that. And man, when I was going up through it, I was blown away at what level to, I thought, well, maybe when I was at the amateur level, I thought, well, maybe it's just because these are amateurs. When I get up to the pro level, this is where all the really smart people are going to be at, right? Not sure. I was like, oh shit, there's nobody. And there's a lot of people making a lot of money off that industry. And it's getting worse before it's getting better. It's growing out of control. Well, let me ask you girls this. You both have been exercising yourselves or training for a while, right? You've been doing this for a long time. Considering where you are now with exercise and nutrition, how you view both of them, how different is it for you now than, I don't know, 10 years ago? It's completely different. Completely. I think that before, you know, we talked about the transactional relationship and that was, I think, completely where we both were of, like, for me, I have no athletic background. Like CrossFit is the first time I've ever been an athletic person before this. I mean, I was active. I was a raft guide. I was a backpacking guide. No, don't discount Showquire. I was in Showquire, which, you know, there's like some, there's some strategic breathing. Why didn't we open with the song? Why didn't you sing when we opened with Justin? I mean, I'll just do it at the end. Has the voice of an angel. How good are you at jazz squares? Can you do the dirty dancing lift? Let's try that. You know what, I'll harmonize. He does that to me all the time. But I think, so for me, like, anytime that I would kind of make a foray into that, it was very, like, it was not my lifestyle whatsoever. And so it was easy for me to just say, like, okay, this is going to be this, you know, six-week program. But I remember in college, you know, doing things where it was like, all I'm going to eat for the next six weeks is like tuna and spinach. And that would last like three days, right? So for me, it wasn't really something that ever was a huge part of my life. But the way that I looked at it as an outsider was like, this is something that is so black and white and is just like, it's like a layer of paint you put on top of your life. It doesn't affect anything else in your life. And I think the biggest transformation for me has been the realization that, like, you can't change one part of your life without the rest of your life changing as well. And that if you really want to be, to your point, like a healthy, make healthy choices, it's not just about only eating tuna for six weeks. It's about actually taking the lens and looking at your life holistically and saying, okay, what needs to change here and what, you know, do I need to do day to day to make this long term versus like, what is the program I'm doing for the next six weeks? And so you're- It's your first level of awareness right now. And it's much healthier now, right? And it's a different level of awareness and understanding of these things. But I think that I still get in the trap, and this is why I was saying like, I'm, you know, surprised that you were able to go through that without it, without internalizing it is that I still get in the trap where, you know, if I'm, you know, trying to lose these last 10 baby pounds of like, well, why don't I just eat tuna for six weeks? I don't know, that'll fix the problem. And like, so there's still that part of my brain that tries to take over. It's a process and it takes time. Like you've, like I said, 10 years ago is very different than now. 10 years from now, it's going to be very different than it is today, as long as you continue to try to grow along with it and examine it and talk about it. Look, the podcasting is amazing therapy. I get to talk about my process all the time and it actually speeds the process up. I don't know if you guys have noticed this with yourselves and relationships, the things like exercise. Well, enjoy as a literal therapist. So like when we do podcasts, they're like, I might as well just be in therapy. It's great. Well, that's nice. Now, I mean, It's free. I don't check. It's free. I've been doing this for a very, very long time. That's why you know us so well. Exactly. I see. I'm worried about your assessments. Paul Cech already nailed us. So yeah, we'll see what you got. You don't even know. But you know, I've been doing this for a very, very long time and there were, I mean, distinct steps along the way. And I can remember each time I'm evolving and moving to the next level of my understanding. And it wasn't even that long ago where I finally was able to break the chains of I need to eat, you know, protein every three hours and I have to lift weights this particular way so I can look buffed or whatever. It wasn't even that long. I'm 38 years old. It's taken a long time. I think if you approach exercise with that understanding of growth, that growth minded, I'm loving my body. I'm doing the things that are good for my body. It will continue to evolve. The problem with that, the problem with that is the time for people and the time that it wanted to happen tomorrow. Yeah. The time that it takes to go through these layers and that's what I meant by when we talked earlier about, you know, I'll spend 10 years with a client, getting them to perfect a deadlift because there's so many layers to getting to even just the mechanics of the body and the nutrition. Well, I have the answer to that. The answer is this. Enjoy the process along the way. I was just going to say that because then what? Like you reach a goal like for me, if I got to whatever percent body fat, well, then what? It doesn't really matter of the end goal. Like we're all kind of putting this end goal in fitness and it just goes along with everything else in life. It's not about the destination. It's the journey. So it's like, but we don't do that with fitness. We think if we achieve this perfect physique or whatever it is that we're freaked out about with our health, then that's the end goal. Exactly. And let me add, there's a term for it. There's a psychological term or condition where after you achieve a particular goal or pinnacle, there's that post-event depression or lack of motivation. I can't remember. There's an actual term for it, but you'll experience this if you're a competitive athlete or whatever, you'll train for an event and you'll get so psyched and then you'll compete and then like afterwards it's like so hard to get motivated like you were before or whatever because everything was attached to that one goal. So it's a very short-term strategy. Marathon runners get this all the time. All the time. And in the Olympics, I remember after the Olympics, they did like this huge bit on all the Olympic athletes of like giving them, getting them therapists to be like, now that your entire life, your identity is completely tied to that. Right, exactly. Yeah. See, and the people that are listening to the Beast Mode message are these competitive minds and these marathon runners, these personalities that feed into that. So, and that's another real big problem that I have with a lot of the class settings and the Beast Mode mentality is just that it's not that I don't see a place for all of that stuff, it's just the wrong people are actually doing it. Exactly, exactly. You know, and I think that's the biggest issue I have with it. Well, you're putting yourself worth on the end goal, which is totally, totally bad thing to do for anything, but like if you, I don't know, I just feel like if you're, if you look at the journey and you're trying to enjoy the process and you're trying to be nice to yourself, like that's kind of what we're going for. And I think that's what we've learned along the way. Like 10 years ago, if you're asking me, like my 29-year-old self, it was completely, I was running because it was burning more calories. It was, I was running because I wanted to get skinny. And then if you want to take it a step further, like when's the first time you were aware of your body as a male? Like, let me stop that. Whoa. Are you trying to set me up here? I remember the exact date. No. 1980, oh, it was in the 10th. No, not what I was talking about. Saw things happen. Yeah. When you, did you have any like insecure feeling of, I'm not strong enough or I'm too skinnier? I don't look like the other guys in my class. Like something like that. Yeah. I was aware of that from day one. Mainly junior high. Now I want to, and you know, I'll tell you what, the good thing about being in this, in the industry, the professional industry is for as long as we have, is we've seen certain trends develop. And I'll tell you something right now, like both men and women are advertised in a way that is not conducive to long-term health and fitness. But women really are hammered way more than men. And I'll tell you, it wasn't that long ago when I first became a trainer, okay? In the big box gyms, they had a women's area. Oh yeah, colored machines that were colored a certain way. They were, the pads on the machines were like, like a dark pink or purple, I think it was. They were the exact same fucking machines that were in the rest of the gym. The difference was the pads were different color and the weight stacks didn't go fine. That's all for marketing. It was all for marketing. Women, the term toned was created to advertise to women to get them to come into gyms. Because no woman wants to build muscle, right? So no, no, no, you're not going to build. You're just going to tone. You're just going to tone your arms. Yeah, the lengthening and lean muscle and the long look, all marketing towards women. All the shit that we said, by the way. Just rage stroke. It was all. And so what happens is, number one, women are advertised to, just like men are about, for men, you're not strong enough. You're not manly enough for women. You don't look good enough. You're not hot enough or whatever. But then on top of that, the information women get is so wrong. It's like, hey, you don't want to build. So do five million reps of this butt kick back. And use these small pink dumbbells. Don't you dare touch the iron over there. And if you lift heavy, you're going to grow a mustache and testicles, like, you don't even want to. Holy shit. And it's the, it's not only wrong. It's the opposite. Like if you, as a trainer. Once again, the people that could use it the most, okay, weren't doing it and the ones that could do it, the most probably didn't need it, right? To need to do other shit like yoga and stretching and taking care of their body. I'll tell you what, nothing is more empowering. I've gotten, I've had this conversation with female clients more times than I can count. Nothing to them, they've told me, I never felt so empowered as when I can lift something heavy. Now, I don't necessarily think it's because they felt weak before, but maybe it's because they felt like they shouldn't be super strong or able to do certain things. So all of a sudden now they're deadlifting 200 pounds off the floor and they're like, I've never felt so empowered. I don't know, I could be this way. And then of course the way they look is amazing. Then they realize that, oh, I don't look like Sal over here. Well, this is something that CrossFit did very well. They did very well. We think that they are for sure responsible for women lifting strong women. Good barbell movements in the gym. I think they are solely responsible. I don't know anybody else that got that message across better because like Sal said, bodybuilding has been trying to do it for less. He just went through puberty, sorry. I am the young one in the group. Just randomly happening for you guys. Bodybuilding has been trying to do that. No, I remember. Fuck you, Justin. Sorry. Was it the Brady punch over here? Yeah, right. 20 years. Yeah. I don't know where that came from. I just got my first puberty. Oh! If I get some water over here, right? Oh my God. Speaking of your balls dropping. Yeah, right. So we failed and we've all failed. And even as trainers, we failed because I'll be the first to admit that I avoided squatting and deadlifting and teaching it because I knew it was challenging. When as a trainer, I remember the first time going under and squatting and being like, knowing it didn't look well. It didn't feel well. So I even avoided it for many years and worked around it. And that mentality is horrible. And CrossFit was definitely, I feel really responsible for getting a better message out about that. It took some time for me to get used to the fact that I was going to build more muscle. But I think a lot of people think that if they start lifting anyway, especially women, that you're going to get bulky and you're going to look like a man or what have you. And you're just going to wake up and be like, oh, shit, I got bulky. Yeah. If it was only that easy to build muscle. If only. Thank you. I know. I talk to people and they're like, even to this day, I'll tell them I do CrossFit. And they're like, yeah, I've thought about it. I just don't want to get bulky. And I'm like, do I look bulky? I would pay money to get bulky. Yeah, exactly. But the marathon days, I just remember back in my 20s, it was more the goal of running to get skinny. And then now it's like, you can actually build muscle. And you don't have to like, I can probably squat for an hour and do really intense squats and then feel just as sore the next day as if I ran a marathon. So you don't really need to pound the pavement for that long. Not only that, but I think, I think soreness is a bad indicator. Yeah, I remember you saying that. Yeah, and people like, you should actually feel good after your workout. You should feel energized. Invigorated. That's it. You should not leave your workout feeling like you're, you just got, I was just killer and I can't move. And now people connect out with a good workout. That was my experience when I went through CrossFit. So I went through it when Justin and I both were working together years ago. And this was like when people were doing it out on the asphalt in front of the gym. Yeah, we were doing it in 24 hours. Yeah, I saw Jason. I saw Jason Khalifa. And like they're running shoes. Yeah, I saw Jason Khalifa, Neil Maddox, Buddy of Mine like compete on asphalt. We compete on the asphalt. Before there was any like official meets or anything going on. And I remember like finding out about it, doing it myself. And man, I was just afterwards I was so beat. Now there's the side of me, the athlete inside of me that kept going because I like the competitive side of that. But really when I asked myself like, is this the best way that I should take care of my body long term? And I just I knew I couldn't do it. It wasn't the what was most conducive because I was working long hours and just like this is too much on my body. So I think that's the message that we keep trying to get across with everybody. I think everybody when we first came out, we came out so strong on CrossFit. I think there's a lot of great things that it's brought to the community. And I think people like I have so much respect for people like Rob Wolf and Mike Bledsoe, what you girls are doing. Yeah, I knew girls. Yeah, I think there's I think there's a lot of people that just to me, I feel like you just accept it and be aware that there's it's new. Okay, it's very, very new. And you think of a think about a modality or a sport. We're just trying to channel that energy into a more positive direction. I think that's and I really feel for that community to to really assess, you know, how to improve and go forward and always be critical of what, you know, what you're putting out there. It's a tough, it's a it's a pivot. I think they're doing it because in the beginning, it feels like it in the beginning, it was glorified. Like there was that unofficial mascot of that clown puke in all over the place. And, you know, they call them Uncle Rabdo or whatever. And puke. Yeah, puke the clown and, you know, and people would brag about how they couldn't move and all these different things. And it's been pivoting, right? They're I think it's a difficult pivot, but I think it's happening. I've seen it more the people we've talked to who are leaders in that world are talking about it in ways that where we're like, oh, shit, like this is already changed. It seems to be have changed quite a bit. I know the commercial side of it, the sport side of it, which is why Adam keeps harping, excuse me, harping on that it needs to be called sport. I think that's always going to be because it's great for TV and it's exciting and it is a cool sport. But the other side of it, I'm seeing now a little bit of a change in how it should be approached. So this is what drew us to kettlebell sport is it was exactly that because kettlebell sport has a very similar kind of feel as far as the community, the way the way the boxes are and they train. And, you know, there and I, it's reminded me spot on to and it happened in this area too, like the Santa Cruz area for CrossFit is watching these communities grow with kettlebell. But what I love is that they recognize it as a sport and that's how they've started it from the get go. And so I feel like I can get behind it. And because I know and you better believe we'll have to answer this question in, you know, three, four years when kettlebell sport really explodes. Like, oh, you guys don't like CrossFit, but you attach yourself to kettlebell. It's almost the same concept. It's this high intensity, lots of repetitions to fatigue. You know, it's okay. Well, it's a sport. And I think it's an awesome sport. I think, I think if CrossFit just put a sport after it, I think it would, I think that in itself would solve a lot of problems. You mentioned that. Yeah. One more time. I know I keep, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with that one. I don't think that's a hard, I don't think it's a hard pivot right there. That's like, you know, fucking change it. Just put as fucking put some different signs up. It's a sport. Super easy. Oh, it got drilled in there. You know, that's in there. I'm sold now because as a trainer, I get it when my clients ask me, should I go do CrossFit to get in shape? I can say, well, do you feel like the sport? Yeah. Do you like the sport? You know what we're going to do? We're going to grab things that say sport, and we're just going to put it on there. Yeah. Just going to go around all the CrossFit. Oh my God. We'll solve the problem. What are the, what's like the top questions you guys get from your community of like advice for fitness or whatever? You know, we hear all the time. We get a lot of the typical, you know, how do I work this area better? How do I get stronger here? I want to lose this much body fat. Not anymore, dude. We, we, we'll, we'll still get some of that, but then, you know, our more hardcore fan, we'll get questions about our personal lives, which I think is hilarious. And we'll, we like to answer that every once in a while because it's fun and funny. But we're getting more and more questions on the harder questions in terms of like the more abstract stuff. Like, how do I get my spouse to, you know, exercise now and without making them feel bad? Or how do I, you know, I've, I've gone the yo-yo dieting for so long. Like, how do I make this more of a lifestyle? What's the transition intuitive eating look like? There are, there are very difficult questions for us to answer. Yeah. So we get a lot more of that kind of stuff, which I'm happy because now people are asking the right question. Well, I was going to say, my guess is that people, your audience has evolved to, to asking questions that are not so much like, how do I lose 10 pounds or like whatever, which is a good sign because that's shown that you have influenced them. It's good and bad. Yeah. It's good and bad. This is something Taylor and I into semantics. Well, exactly. This is something that you're frustrated with. Taylor and I were just talking about the other day that we just had Dr. Ruscio here and he's a gut health specialist. Brilliant. Just awesome to listen to someone talk about that and also even more awesome to listen to someone at Sal's understanding of the gut, ask a guy of that level questions because you just get the most awesome amount of information thrown at us. But I mean, it's worked for me. It's worked for me to, it's worked for me to digest much and disseminate that into my, how do I apply? That was a good gut flora pun. You made it. How do I, how do I apply that to real life? And so we lose, I feel like a lot of people that are just coming on board. So this is a struggle that we have because we want to help evolve our like long-term listeners that have enjoyed the progression and they're asking deeper, better questions. But if you're someone who slides in, first time you ever heard mind pump you tune on and we're talking about getting in touch with your spirituality and like you're like, Whoa, what did I just step into? I don't know if I'm ready for that yet. So that's a struggle we have right now still keeping it's very, very simple and basic but then also giving what our audience that's been listening since the beginnings what they need. Yeah, I get that. I don't feel like we've, I don't know. I feel like we've had a similar kind of evolution started off with people saying like very kind of straightforward training-based questions and now getting more, we went through the phase of like how do I get my spouse to start CrossFit? And I think we've gotten into a lot more mindset questions and a lot more kind of like specific to your life. And those questions like you said are so much harder to answer because the answer typically is, well, it varies. What does your life look like? And I, but I think that for us it's kind of more like we, if someone were to come in in that episode and say, hey, I really love this and I resonate with this, that's the listener we want to keep on board versus if somebody comes in and kind of bounces back off of like, whoa, whoa, I still want to talk about how to lose 10 pounds. Like in our mind, like that person, you know, is it just at the start of their journey and we're so much farther that it's like, okay, maybe the messages, go back and listen to episode one. That's what we used to say. Yeah, versus like, okay, let's kind of lowest. That's hard though, when you started. So this is the challenge that we had, right? So this is also once again, why we made the 30 days of coaching because we knew that we're like, okay, we can't expect someone who just comes in now. And you don't want to alienate people by being like, screw you guys, get out of here if you can't, if you can't meet us for that. Yeah, I can understand it. Well, we also, I mean, we also have a very strong background in sales. You actually just gave me a really good idea of something I want to do. And I'll explain to you why that's important. Good sales people are effective communicators, okay? And in order to communicate our message effectively, we have to think of our message and how we deliver it. And sometimes if we stay here, like Adam was saying, and someone comes on to like, I just want to lose 10 pounds, or I just want to get a bigger bench press and I'm talking about your relationship to food and love your body and learn how to meditate. They're not going to listen anymore and we've lost somebody that we could touch. And I learned this. We learned this firsthand, all of us, as personal trainers with clients. You know, I used to have, I used to take pride in this. I used to have these come to Jesus, talk to my clients. And then they would go away and then someone, you're like, well, I lost them. I have like no contact now. They're gone. Exactly. I'd have a client who'd be training me three days a week and she or he would come to me and say, hey, Sal, my schedule really only allows once a week. And old Sal would be like, well, it's not worth it. Get your butt in here and make it a priority. This is what you need. And I do this whole motivational asshole speech. And most of the time, they would leave and never come back. And my attitude was always like, well, then they weren't ready for it or whatever. And then I started realizing that person, I didn't do them anything, any better and they're not exercising now. Like once a week is way better than nothing. Arguably, they're probably the ones that need it the most, right? That's right. That's right. So, you know, that's where, you know, what we say with our message, we have to make sure that people are kind of getting in and understanding real quick what's going on. It's challenging as fuck, but I love it. It challenges us. It's part of why I think the growth over the last year or two is because that we're always thinking like that. Like, how are we as if someone's coming in and listening, and we're so passionate about all the things the fitness industry has done wrong, how do we not just naturally get lumped there? So we're constantly struggling with that and with our message. Well, I feel like it's the responsibility of ours to disseminate like this information and bring these guests on that are very scientific and to be able to present that in a way that's more relatable. Just like you guys, you're very smart. Here's the deal. You have the academia world, right? That presents this hard facts and science, but then you have like you guys who, you guys connect with your audience. Huge. So if you get, you know, you get some of that information and you don't need to know it all, you should be able to connect to your audience to deliver the message. Well, that's what I was going to say. It's like you guys clearly have this connection piece and I think that we always talk about podcasts now or like a dime a dozen. I get a little annoyed because everyone in their dog is starting a podcast and I'm not trying to get on my high horse, but I feel like that's like the newest thing. So we are constantly- Right, it's the new fitness blog. We're trying to stay ahead of like how podcasts information can evolve because everyone right now, you can pull up 50 podcasts of like, how to meditate? How to de-stress your life? And it drives me crazy. Like if I see one of more of those, so the information you can just completely spout off on a podcast, no problem. But with the biggest piece that we found, it doesn't matter what you say, it's the connection you have. And so the relationship that you guys have and the evolving that you guys have done is what people connect to, I think. And it's the trust that you build with your audience, the trust that like if they listen, they're going to hear something that's valuable and that like you've vetted, right? That you're not just going to be giving them anything that comes down to hype. There's no agenda behind it. Yeah, it's our audience is so committed that way, which we love, we talk about it all the time. Like we never would have dreamed that we have a community that we have right now. Well, and you also got to consider there's a small entertainment factor, like you guys are on your podcast, you guys are talking. It's fun to listen to you guys too. I hope it's more than small. But yeah, people enjoy listening. You're doing so. And people enjoy listening because they also enjoy listening. One of the things that we did when we first started and we still do it, now we open the episodes and you're walking into a conversation and many times it's us bullshitting and it's inappropriate and sometimes it's hilarious and whatever. Locker room, sexual stuff, yeah. Whatever. I mean, it's all, it's no holds barred. We've been called to Howard Stern of Fitness many times, but we have a lot of people that listen because they like the entertainment aspect of it. And then guess what happens after 10, 15, 20 episodes. They'll send us a message like, you know, I like to listen to you guys. You guys are total douchebags. You guys were funny. And then it came back. Yeah, but now I'm starting to exercise now and I'm starting to do, it's like, yes. Yes, we're connecting with some people who may not have listened to this message before. So. Well, it's like when I first started listening to you, it was the same thing. I'm like, I don't know if I can get on with these guys. Like it's like bro-y, but like there's something I just can't let go. I gotta stay with them. Like there's something I like about them. And it's just that piece of like you're kind of, you're catering to so many different people and your audience and like, I'm glad I stuck with you guys because you guys are hilarious. And here we are. Yeah, and here we are. But I mean, I think that's the piece too. It's like, you're not trying to be to sell anything. There's no agenda behind it. I mean, I feel like that's why people love us too. It's just like, we're not trying to preach anything. We're just being ourselves. We want to welcome people into our world. Which is hard as fuck when you need to make money. Yes. That's true. It's hard. It's just why we sell both half full-time jobs. And you know what, not enough people are sharing that shit. You know, the people that are giving really good messages out there, you know, just man, it's tough to make money in the fitness, health industry. Yeah. Without selling your soul. Yeah. And we'll get folks who, you know, we're trying to schedule interviews with and they're like, great. I got 11 a.m. open on Thursday and we're like, we both work nine to five. You know, like this is not our job. And people are like, wait, really? It's like, yeah. No, we just have all day to give you free shit and all kinds of information. Exactly. I don't know where you think I'm earning money off of this. But I'm not like one of those people who just gets paid to exist. When do you guys meet to do your podcast? Anytime we have free time. Sometimes on Skype, typically it's like Monday or Tuesday nights. After miles goes to bed. After miles goes to bed. And then we spend our time. And these are mad hustling. Then you don't even have like a set time always for it. Wow. No. Wow. That's the weird thing about our schedules and our dynamic is like, we'll just text each other and like, can you do the night? Great. Yeah. Now you're consistent though with what you released though, right? Every Thursday. Every Thursday. You're consistent with that. For over 200 episodes. Now you guys, can you guys just sit down and do a podcast? Oh yeah. Okay. That's the secret right there. People have asked us, how the hell do you guys put up four episodes? Yeah. Like, how do you do four episodes a week and like, we literally sit down and go? Yeah. My husband all the time is like, what do you guys talk about today? I'm like, I don't know. I don't feel so bad for saying that. This way, when that way. We're trying to get so mad at me when I come home and she's like, you just talk for a fucking three hours straight and you can't give me five minutes of conversation. What you talking about? I'm like, just listen to God damn thing. You listen to this. I listen to this. You listen to the show. You're going to find out tomorrow. Oh my God. Oh my God. You know? Thank God. What's the answer I gave you two years ago? The same answer. The same answer. I don't know. We talked about. Oh, I don't feel so bad. And then we see honey. Yeah. And then we text constantly throughout the day and her husband's always like, what do you guys possibly have to talk about on top of podcasting? So really, we joke that our podcast is basically just like putting a mic up to our just ongoing lifelong conversation, which is helpful. Yeah. That's it. What got you guys started into podcasting? Why'd you guys start? I was listening to podcasts like way before they were popular. I was kind of like the OG grandma that was like, just listening to the five podcasts that were out there. Oh, wow. Ben Greenfield was there. Yeah, tell us who you were listening to. Ben Greenfield, Rich Roll was out there. The Wodcast guys were like the first CrossFit-S podcast. Barbell Shrugged was up. And then there was like a bunch of running podcasts, which is really where these guys, they still actually podcast, I believe. Two Gomers. And then like NPR. So there's a bunch of things. And then there was a couple of women's, like two women podcasts, two women hosts. And I just loved kind of the autobiographical nature that they had. So they are always talking about their lives. And so I knew what I liked to listen to. And I was like, man, there's just nothing really out there for women in CrossFit. And at the time I was like really, really, I'm still am, but really, really into CrossFit. And so Claire and I worked out together at the same gym. We both wrote blogs at the time. And I just approached her one day. We weren't really even friends. We were more acquaintances. And we're like, you want to start a podcast? She asked me, do you listen to podcasts? I was like, I listen to car talk. Like is that a podcast? She was like, no. Now, did you guys grow fast at first? Or was it like? We still aren't growing fast. It was just a consistent. It's just consistent. You know, I think the first. Word of mouth. Right. And the first couple, I mean, months, year, we still just felt like it was like my mom and like my husband sometimes. And it's still to this day is like interesting to, you know, we had our 200th episode two weeks ago and we had a party and we brought, you know, about a hundred people are so came. And it was like, oh my gosh. And people like flew in. We flew in from like Canada. Yeah. And we were like, wow, there are people out, you know, and it's, you know, you're sitting in your studio or for us, it's a spare bedroom. And it's, you know, because it is sort of, I mean, it's a priority in our life, but it's not like the focus of our life that sometimes we forget that it has grown to the point that it's at. And we're still definitely, you know, not one of the most popular podcasts out there, but we're still the only women in our space. You guys would grow five times faster right this moment. If we posted it before and after photo. No. If you actually. If we posted your before and after. If you just started doing it twice, three times and four times a week. Hey, you don't understand what you just said. When would I do that? Like, well, yeah, it's that, it's that jump that needs to be made. And I'll tell you right now what you just said is exactly. Here comes the pressure. Okay. No, no, no. All right. You just, you just. Let's set some goals. Well, no, you just said, you just said. Oh, he's a great movie. What's your, what you're attracted to business wise, right? I mean, like podcasts wise, like you want people, especially the generation coming up, the binge, look how Netflix is. Yeah. Who you want to be able to get it and you want all of it as much as you possibly can. And that's what's going to share you and get you grow. You guys have what it, you guys have it. Yeah. I want more. Look at emails of people being like, of course. I just binge done all two kinds of. Come on. Of course. They give us more. They've got both of mine pump is seven days a week. Yeah. I mean, that's nuts. You guys are crazy. Yeah. I know wads on my face. Oh my God. I had to go there. Jesus. You were expecting it from me. I'm surprised it's taken this long. I had to warm up to you guys. Where you been? But you know, at the same time, you guys have the ability to just sit down and podcast. Right. There you go. I mean, it may not be that hard to throw out, you know, to just double it to another episode. Now you're going to get all these messages. I know. I know. It's good. It's good. No, we love it. We love this. Hashtag more episodes, please. And that's the thing is like at first we were like, well, Claire and I just, I swear it was just a match made in heaven that we got to do this together because our schedules always line up. We've never missed a week. We missed one week, actually, for her wedding. And we constantly just say, well, as long as it's fun and as long as we keep getting feedback that we should still do this, we're going to keep doing it. And just when we have like a bad day or a bad week where we're like, should we keep doing this? We'll get some amazing email from someone. It's like you changed my life where I was so depressed and I just listened to you to laugh and you got me through a really hard time or thank you for talking about post-partum depression. No one talks about this or you name it and we're just like in tears. Like, okay, we need to keep doing this. How was it going through that while having a podcast, the post-partum? Was that therapeutic for you to be able to talk about it? I don't think I really talked about it until I was out of it. And it was, I think, more because I didn't, you know, like, who was the talk about it? Is it Bernie Brown who talks about like, you can't talk about a traumatic experience until you're through it because it's just too raw. You're still figuring it out yourself. And it makes people uncomfortable when you're not. And I think there's, you know, there's a middle ground there. It's there's something to say about just raw emotion and saying like, hey, I'm in this right now and like, I want to share this with you guys. But when it's something as serious as like being suicidal, that's not something that I'm want to, you know, go through that journey with thousands of other people. Yeah. And so I think the first time I really talked about it was, I don't even probably last summer. I don't even remember the first time I talked about it, but it has been great in the sense that, you know, so I ended up in like an intensive therapy program. It wasn't something that I just got through on my own. It was like, you know, medication and all this stuff. But then coming out on the other side of it and talking about it has been in a way like, you know, we have a lot of people who write to us and we talk about, we have had eating disorder experts on the on the show several times and we'll get people who say, you know, like, I never realized the extent of my eating disorder until I heard your episode and now I'm going to go get help. And the same thing with postpartum depression where people will say, I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know what to call it until I heard this. And, you know, they'll say like, it just is so helpful to know someone else is out there with that. And I feel the exact same way, you know, having that feedback works exactly the same way the other side where I feel more normalized. And so in that way, it's really helped me let go of the guilt of postpartum depression and feel like, okay, this is not just a fluke that I went through and, you know, just because I had a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby and blah, blah, blah, it's not, it doesn't say something about me as a person that I had to go through this because look at all these other people who have written to me and had the exact same story. Yeah. A lot of people don't realize when you're going through a traumatic experience that there's help that you get while you're in the traumatic experience, but when you come out of it, there's a lot of work to be done. You had mentioned guilt or just the thoughts afterwards or even it don't, letting it become a, you know, post-traumatic stress issue itself where you continue to relive it. I actually went through a divorce, I was married 15 years and went through a divorce while we're doing the podcast. I found it extremely therapeutic to be able to talk about it because talking about it and knowing that people are listening actually made me hear myself a little differently. I think sometimes when we're in something, we're not very aware of how we're behaving like if we're angry or irritable and we lash out at somebody, it's hard for us to see that, oh, I was acting like an asshole or whatever, but when I'm talking on a microphone to people. Oh yeah, another podcast you won't accelerate social awareness. Oh, I mean, you know, I was, it's like you're processing while I'm on air and it's helping me process and luckily I'm a sharer. I like to talk about things anyway, so it was just. Right, it forces you to take us back and look at it objectively. Oh, it was, I mean, I tell you what, if it wasn't for this podcast, it would have been a lot, it's always difficult, but it would have been a lot, a lot worse if I didn't have this outlet to be able to talk about those things. So what are some of the more difficult, have you guys ever gotten criticisms from fans where you get messages and they're like, you suck. We talk about this, we've had this question a lot and it's really funny because as of yet, not gonna word, we really haven't had a ton of criticism. Which I think also goes to show you that we're still kind of small. Yeah, exactly. I don't think that, that we used to say the same thing. Yeah. We used to say the same thing all the time and it's not that yet. We kept looking for it. I just, that's, that's kudos to you for your message because you know what, the, those ones that grow the fastest like explode overnight and go viral because of a picture or something they said was mainly controversial. They are, they're gonna, and then they're gonna attract that type of person, the people that you're attracting are. Well, I almost look at it as like, you know, there's that old kind of thing that you, you don't see a doctor that you like even if they mess up where it's kind of like people might hear something that we say and disagree with it or feel like it's, you know, it butts up against what they believe but they know us and they know that we're coming from a place of good intent. And so since they have that trust, they don't feel instead of feeling offended, they look at it as like, and we have had, I mean around the election we posted a couple things that were, you know, I'd like, it was a world event. We had to react to it. We had to react. And we had some people who wrote in. You guys are political? Well, like, we're like one social. Oh boy. That's the third rail. Oh my gosh. May have like snapchatted my nasty woman t-shirt or something. But like, and so we had people who reached out to us in really respectful, like I was shocked how respectful people were of like, hey, just remember there are some of your listeners who are happy, you know, about the election and we just, you know, we're feeling a little alienated right now. And I was like, okay, great. That is so like, if you're going to say something, that's the way to do it. Yeah. And I think the only time and we joke about this all the time that we've had like a quote-unquote negative review, well, one time we got somebody was like, all they did was talk about her baby. I'm like, I did just had a baby. Like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to put it. You bitch, selfish bitch. Adam's macros. Right. And the other time, it was someone who was like, there's no technical information on this podcast. It's just conversation. And we were like, that's a positive review actually. Like that's what we're going for. We are not the technical podcast. Yeah. It was one star. I was like, they don't talk about training at all. And we're like, yeah. Not our show. Yeah. We'll go to Mind Pump. Yeah. There you go. That's awesome. Yeah. Now we enjoy, we enjoy the feedback. We've had some negative reviews. We'd have it. We had a few of them, not a ton, but we've had a few of them. Yeah. I had one early on that would have, that would have bothered me. That's right. And it was tough, but. Only because the way it was said, like they really fucking hit, man. Yeah. They were like, I like. It was just me. Well, it wasn't even like it was just me. It was literally like, this is how shitty it was. It was, I like Sal a lot because of this, this and that. I like Justin a lot because this, this and that. Doug is a great producer. God, Adam sucks. So it was like, it wasn't even like, bad about the show. It was like. Very direct. First of all, he is that. And pretty sure is one of the reasons they gave. The reasons they gave, and this is why it bothered me so much. Because at that moment, I was, I was going through the, I was feeling very conflicted with this character that I was kind of portraying on the show. And it wasn't, is it really all of me feeling like I need to exaggerate parts of me to create that dynamic between us? I struggled with that. And that was like my first, you know, feeling that someone made me really look at that and go like, Oh God, you know, that's not me. Like the part you hate most about me is least about me. It's like me. You know, so that really, I struggled with that. But it was good. It was great for growth. And it was incredible. Oh no, stop though. But like, that's totally them projecting their shit onto you. Of course. You realize that. Of course. That's why I don't. Like as trainers, you guys probably get that all the time is like people projecting their shit onto you because they're insecure about whatever, whatever. And yeah. Oh, all the time. I'm interested in your assessment of us, by the way. I know you have one. Oh, yes. I was kind of like, don't hit me. Be nice. No, don't actually. She's like, yes. Okay. So from listening from the beginning, Justin, I feel like was super, super shy. And like, I know that you had a hard time like getting out of your shell. My assessment is like, you've really. Tarot card. I know. My assessment of you is. I'll put my palms out. Yeah. But like, but it's more of like, I know you guys as individuals, I'm not going to go into each individual one, but I feel like as individuals, you guys have grown together so much and it's cool to see this has happened with Claire and I is you have grown, your dynamic has grown. And I feel like you guys have influenced each other so much in such a positive way. It's just really cool to see. But I mean, I can go into like, total psycho babble, but I don't think your listeners want to hear that. We actually do. We had a pretty crazy like, energy reading with Paul Check. Just so you know. What did he say? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. A bunch of pretty impactful stuff. Okay. Yeah. So it's fair game. Yeah. Yeah. No. I think they want to hear it, Joy. I know. We kind of do. Yeah. I'm just like, okay. So what I think. She's like, I don't know how to lie. You got to put on the therapy hat. Well, like, some of it goes like, because I'm such a therapist at heart, it goes to like deeper stuff too. So I don't like out your business, but I'm like, Oh, absolutely. But no, no, no. But like, I know that like, you had a really hard upbringing. So I'm like, I always think about that. And like, my heart goes out to you. Like, I wish I want you at some point, to share like, more of that experience, because I feel like a lot of people need to hear that of like, what you went through as a kid. Can I share, can I share something with you on that point? So this is actually something that I, I know, which is hard. You know, that's something that you can't, I don't just divulge without someone asking or diving into that. I'm an open book when it comes to that stuff. And I've always have been. And I know that like, within my community, before we did podcasting, I'd affected a lot of people that way, because tons of people have that story. You know what I'm saying? My, so. Don't discount that though. Well, I'm not, I'm not discounting it because. Therapize him. No, no, no. I'm not at all. I'm not at all. I know. Is it a word? But it's, I know that it's a, and that's where I, because I don't share it enough, I know that people don't know my full story. But once you do, and then you know how I handle it, and I share it, I know I need to do more of it. It's hard because I need these guys to ask it, or I need a guest to ask something like that. I don't want, what I don't want to turn this into is the show about Adam and how Adam's growth and his journey. So. Why not? Yeah, I'm cause like. Cause that's not mine, Pump. That's not mine. That's a flavor and it's a part of mine, Pump. Yeah, but I mean. But that's not our, it's the whole, this is not like, let's, let's hear Adam's story and where he came from completely. Do you not feel like that's important though to like building the trust? I don't know. I just think about it. Yeah, no. We're going to ask you like crazy now. Yeah, I know. Now you're going to make it. Now it's going to be Adam's therapy, fucking mind pump real soon here. Well, no. And let me just, let me just say this too, because I feel like I've wanted to say this to you since I like started listening and heard that. I don't know. Do you want to like say what happened to you as a kid? Like I know people know, but like, do you want me to say it? Well, yeah. No, actually I would, I'd rather hear your perception of it because I know I've said it and shared it on the show and I talked about it. I'd like to hear how. Well, no. And this is Joy's like HIPAA coming in of like, she doesn't want to like talk about people. I'm a cake. I can't like. She's like, so like even with, the two worlds in my life don't, don't collide. Even like stuff with me. She'll, I mean, we talk all the time. Like this is not just like her, this is like her therapist mind and like HIPAA mind being like, I don't want to like expose your stuff for you. This is like about. Oh, I see, I see. Like you need to expose your own side. And it's not like getting too deep, but like you lost your father at a young age. So I feel like you could have done one of two things. You could have gone like batshit crazy and had like really difficult life, but you created an amazing life for yourself. And I know that you were like really straight edge and like you were, you cut in a way. I feel like that was your control, right? You took control and that's what you needed to do to like keep things together and your mom had an abusive relationship, et cetera, et cetera. And like you rejected into this amazing person. And I just want to want you to hear like how profound that is that you don't, that doesn't happen every day when someone has that much trauma in their life. And I know that you look back and you're like, well, I did what I needed to do. I survived and I like made it work. And whatever you had supports around you, but like that doesn't happen easily. This is where the confidence comes from, but this is also where the other side of that confidence where I look sometimes to the first person when they first meet me as cocky or arrogant. And so bragging about where I, I know I don't have to brag, but even sharing too much on a platform like this could come off that way in a world where we're virtual and you see and perceive what you want to see because you see what my Instagram or this. And then you get on my show and then I tell you like my story all the time, it can come off that way. And I've had feedback. Well, I think if it's genuine, I don't think it will. Well, and that's where it has to be organic. It needs to be organic. And I get that, I get that. You're never going to get me and I 100% respect what you're saying and I agree with you. And I've thought about this for Katrina and Katrina, if you guys get a chance to meet her this weekend, she'll tell you this is a conversation we had behind closed doors many, many times is I would tell her that, man, I need the boys to talk more about the stuff I don't like to talk about because I know that more people will grow from watching me have to grow in front of all of you. And I'm okay with that. I'm down to do that, but there's a way to do that and there's a way not to do that and the way not to do that is to come off preaching about it or presenting, I know better than to do that and it will naturally happen and I like to- We're going to ask you more now. I like, I like to meet and have relationships with people that underestimate me. I love that. I like that advantage and I'm okay with that advantage. I don't need to, I don't need to feel, the old me, what used to tell my story all the time because it was what I had a chip on my shoulder and that's what motivated me. But I came full circle on that a long time ago that I don't need that for myself and I think if me, I could come off preaching like I, I'm itself serving because I need my ego to be fed and told how great I am and what a great story I have. I know that. I don't need to hear it from anyone else and if I'm really going to help somebody, it'll organically happen. Somebody like you will ask me a question and we'll talk all day. I'm an open book, you can talk to me on there. But I think my point is because I don't want this to get like all serious. But it is, is like, do you know how profound that is? Do you know how, like, do you know how profound it is to get to that point? No, do you really? I do. And I know, I know all the numbers and statistically how rare that is and where I fall and that, okay, when I went in, you know what my, you know, my statistical challenge was heading into competing as a 30 year old man who's never competed at that level, built a physique, do it with no coach and make it all the way the pro, you know, I know that. That's what, that's me, man. I feed right into that personality. That's, and I went into that the same way I go into life and I, but I know how to turn that on and off. And that's. But I think, but I think my point is that you shouldn't feel like that's something that you're like bragging about. I think it's just like, just acknowledge like, that was fucking hard. And you like, not many people can get to where you are now. Well, can you agree that there's a way to do that and there's a way not to do that? And there's a fine line between the two. Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's where I'm at constantly with that. Like I, I think it is a cool, I think the more, and right now, so we just this last week, we had a magazine interview us, another podcast interview us. We haven't done a lot of interviews where people come on our show and they ask our story. Most of what we share on mind pump is more about the things that, you know, and we do share our stories individually, but it doesn't, I don't want to, just like none of these guys want to take the whole show where it's about, I mean, Sal's got a fucking crazy story. Justin's got a crazy story. We all do. And we, and we feel like we give bits of that when it's, when it's right. And, you know, if the boys asked more because you said something like that, I think, I think I know how these guys are so self-aware. The next time, one of these times, Sal will see the right opportunity when we're talking about something and he'll have me share and that's great feedback from you. And I think everybody could hear, learn from that, but it's a fine line then from that and me talking about it and just putting it out there all the time because it is a great story and it's very motivating and a lot of people can learn from it and it's a piece of me and you learn more about me. I get why it's good and why we should do more of it for sure. I 100% agree with you. Okay. That was the skinny. I think that's kind of like where our message is definitely diverged because for us, like that's the priority, right, is like we want to get to know you as a person, we want to know what drives you and we want that from our audience, we want that from our guests, like we want to know how did you get to where you are and for us, that's what the missing piece is in fitness and in health and in lifestyle is to learn like what drives you and then how can we, how can we speak to that? And you know, so for us, like sitting here, hearing you say like that's not what my pump is about. Like for, to me, in any situation where you're trying to build trust with your audience, it should be about that just from my perspective. And you know, I think for us, it's like that's kind of what we've built our brand, if you will, on is like being that open book unprompted to give other people the confidence to own their own stories as well because if people out there are, if they are waiting to kind of unearth their own story because they feel like, well, you know, I need to be asked people just must not be interested if they're not asking like that means it's not valuable. For us, it's kind of like, you know, be upfront about it, like, you know, stand there and shout like this is my story and this is who I am and this is where I am today. And you know, I don't know, I think that that builds a lot of confidence and provides a lot of freedom for people. We do, we talk about, I mean, it's not a subject. We don't shy away from really any subject. It's just if the conversation goes there. Oh, if we can find out it, if we don't talk about it. That's why you know, right? That's why you know about it, because Adam's talked about it on several episodes. So it's it's not, it's not an area we shy away from. We don't, I mean, again, we talk about pretty much anything. It just depends on where, you know, the conversation is going to go. Well, and to the same point, like you're not going to come on our podcast and hear like, you know, any of the technical stuff, you know, and so it's just a different and I'm, this is not, you know, that was not a criticism. It's just saying, like, I think, you know, very much the difference in our messages. I think it's incredible advice. I got to an opportunity when we first started the podcast to talk with the president of all the podcast for Fox. My buddy Brendan was connected to him, knows him and put us in contact. It was really cool. We were super small. We just started. So there was in my head and of course in my head, I was hoping like I could build this relationship and maybe these guys would acquire us and we'd have all this funding and it'd be awesome. But in reality, like we were nowhere near that level for it be on their radar. But he did spend the time talking with me and giving me feedback on our show. And one of the things that he drove home to me was that the more of you guys and your story you can share, the more people will want to listen and it will grow. And so we definitely try and do that a lot. It's very much so in the conversation. And I think if we all felt like we try, we try our best too to listen to our audience and what they're needing the most at that time. And if our message is getting a certain direction and they want, so we do our best to do that. I think you and I are connected. So you feel like you want to hear more of my story and I like that. And make a heart connection to Adam. It makes me feel good inside. So I appreciate that. But I also, I'm definitely very, very business-minded, number-minded, analytical. And I dive into all the different stuff and then what we talk about and how our audience responds. And if I felt these guys weren't asking it, I would tell Sal or I'd tell Justin and they would do it for sure. And I'm sure they will now a little bit because you've said that. I also want to know, like this is something we talk about a lot on our podcast is you guys are all in relationships. So how do you balance your relationships with all this? But we also like to talk about marriage hacks or relationship hacks. And like, for example- Mine would be, don't get married. We've heard that one before. Katrina's gonna be so mad at me. We've heard that one before. I'm just kidding, honey. We guys been together like 10 years? Six years. Okay. Close enough. So for example- Roundup. She would say seven though because I think we're at six and a half or something like that. So I want to hear these because I know you guys do these. But like, for example, when I come home from work, I'm like super introverted. So I've been doing the therapy all day and just like hearing people's stories or just dealing with people all day. And I want to come home and I want my brain to completely shut off. So as an introvert, you really need to just like have silence. And my husband works from home. And so when I come home, he's like, oh my gosh, he wants to talk to me. So I like go hide in the bathroom. And like that's our joke is like for me to like go hide in the bathroom so he doesn't bother me. So I get like my 10 minutes of secret like silence. Yeah. So what was yours too? You have like a bunch of really good ones with our husbands. But like is there and like this is all out of love. This is not like because you're like trying to avoid them. Yeah. Mine are all- You have to like arrange things sometimes in relationships to make it. Yeah. Mine are all around like how I ask questions. My husband like- So what's the plan for this as opposed to like what the fuck is that? Yeah. I'm trying to think of something else. I know that strategy. Yes. You know what? So having been, I was married for 15 years divorced, met someone that was absolutely amazing. And when you go through a process like divorce, especially a long relationship, I think you can either come out of it and not change, which I think is a travesty. Or you can look back and be like, okay, what did I do that contributed to that? And how can I change those things? Was there a part that you felt like you'd never, well, was there ever a time where you didn't feel like you were doing anything wrong? In the while I was in it, only because I was so focused on what the other person was doing wrong. Okay. That you don't look at what you could possibly be doing wrong. And it's usually, there's usually a peace on both sides. Not always. There's relationships where one side is completely horrible, new sides, you know, not at fault at all. But one of the things that I- That's rare though. One of the things that I really objectively looking back, really learned was that you can't expect the other person to be psychic. Like I can't come home and expect that person to know that I want them to be this way or that I don't want to talk right now because I'm tired. I have to be able to communicate that. And after I communicate it, then the ball is in their core and it's up to them then to treat me with a certain level of empathy or whatever. And what you find when you do that is people are much more empathetic than you think. But expecting them to know right away, you know, like I'm not in the mood for conversation or I'm kind of irritable right now or I'm really stressed out, expecting them to know it. And then when they don't, being angry that they don't know it, like that's just not fair. Oh yeah. And then you're like, we're not meant to be together. Yeah, you're just not fair. Yeah. You'd be shocked. Because you can't read my mind. Because you can't read my mind. Exactly. You'd be shocked when you tell the person, I'm really stressed out right now. It's making me feel kind of irritable. It's just how empathetic they are to it and how things work out better. And of course, on the flip side, if you don't say anything, you end up getting a major fight. And then you're angry because, oh, they know I'm stressed out, that they know that this is going on at work and what I'm dealing with and all these different things. Well, like half the things I see in couples therapy is the other person thinks that if you would only change, then it would make my life easier. It's like, that's not how it works. Yeah, not at all. The other thing for me was finding someone who had a similar passions or similar interests. And I know the whole opposites attract thing. And I don't know how true that is, but when you can share something, and you have to have your own things too, let me be clear, you do your own stuff too, doesn't mean you do everything together, but it's great when you share something that you both have a passion for, whether it be hiking or for us, it's working out together. Because now we can go do something that we enjoy, but also spend time together and grow with it. And so it's just, it's like we're going on a date every day when we go work out. It's really cool. So that's one of my hacks. Who's next? Justin. The married guys probably should go in order. You see how much I like serious conversation. He was over there napping. It's like, what an asshole, dude. He's pouring his heart out over here, and you're over there fucking napping. Wake up. I'm so scared. No, as far as like my wife's relationship and mine, it's, I feel like I'm from like the 1950s or something. And that's probably why I don't chime in all the time. Because, you know, there's struggles and there's a lot more realness. I feel with communicating divorce and the process and, you know, and like, I don't know. I just, a lot of times, I guess I withhold some of my relationship with my wife on the show because it just feels like, it feels like peanut butter and jelly. Tell us at least this, like 1950s, I love Lucy or like Honey Moons. No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the important thing. I guess that's a bad. It was a few ways we could go. I just mean that like. Is she hilarious? Like I love Lucy? That was. She's very, she is. She's very funny, but like. Super witty. Yeah, but we're very much the same person, but the way that we think is completely opposite. So she uses like, she's a nurse. And so she's always, is that left brain, Sal? Or right? The analytical side. Yeah. I think science is showing it's not. I'm the other. Let's just put it that way. And whatever she is. Very creative, you know, I'm just talk out of my ass and try to make people laugh sometimes. And you know, for her, everything has to be this protocol. Like I washed the dishes wrong. Like everything I do is wrong. And I just, you know, as far as like the order of things. And so like our, our friction a lot of times is based off of that. Because it's just like, oh no, like I'm not doing this good. So I'm not going to do it. And yeah, that's a problem. You know, because now I'm not contributing. Right. And I'm not thinking of her and supporting her. And you know, we get into this. This is like always the catch 22. Yeah. And then you feel like I can't do anything right. Yeah, I can't do anything. But I just, I really want to contribute. You know, I like, and I'm always clean. Like we have different ticks. Like, so the floors have to be like super clean. And I know that that's her thing. And so I'm always trying to help with that. But my thing is like the clutter, like everywhere. Like I have to have it organized. And I'm just like, God, it just drives me crazy. But you've got two small boys and we got two small boys that love to just destroy everything anyway. So I've had to like, I've had to calm down with the order. Right. I want control. Like that's something I can control is like having my place look a certain way and having things in certain places. And so that's been a challenge for me to, you know, identify that and then try and communicate that to my wife. Like here's things that like, and these are all really small things. We've got into things with sex. You know, we've gotten to things after like she's been pregnant, like real struggles with that. Like, you know, like her being on birth control and, you know, this is something that's like, you know, she doesn't have the same drive because, because what she's on. And so we've, we've, you know, there's been like a lot of talk with like how we're going to like approach this and move forward. And it's been real, you know, on that end of it. So, but, you know, it's, it's, it's, she's like the perfect fit for me. So it's hard for me to like, I don't know, express some kind of like bullshit fight because it's just, for me, it's all just, we, we, we work on it. Like we go our separate ways, we come back, we work on it. And that's like our relationship. That's a dance. That's the relationship. Yeah, it's a dance. It's exactly how it goes. Anyway, it's like, when you're both in, you're in, you're not going to be like, I don't know. I think that's totally normal. Like all that's, and you see it as all normal and you're both committed to it. So it's like, all right, this is our bullshit. So everyone has it. Yeah. Now, does being a therapist make you just super effective at arguing then with your husband? Oh, he hates it. He hates it. We can't argue because. So it ninja powers. Yes. He thinks everything I say is a play. So it's really funny. Like it's taken us some time to like get to a point where I'm like, I'm really not trying to use therapy tricks on you right now. So yeah, he hates it because every time we, we talk, he's like, you're just trying to generate mind trick me. I know it. That sounds like conversations Katrina and I have also. So I'm lucky and blessed. I mean, I found a unicorn, took me 30 years, but that's Starbucks. Yeah, one of those. Yeah. She is unbelievably very, very special. And the biggest thing about her that I didn't think would ever exist was finding somebody who actually knows me better than I know myself. And I pride myself on being a very self aware individual. So I didn't think that was possible. I didn't think it was possible that someone could truly understand me to the level that I understand myself to the point that she's the only person who I feel I can really call me on my bullshit because she gets where I come from. She gets she gets me on another level that the level of growth that I've had just as a human being by having a relationship with her for six years has been just, I mean, you talk about listening to our growth in the show. I mean, a big part of my evolution is also the relation relationship that I've had with her for the last six years because we will have dialogue like that we're having right now behind closed doors all the time and she's constantly challenging my ego and making me think about it and look and so having a woman that does that is like it and this is what when people say that cliche saying that you oh you want to find someone who makes you a better you like but how many people really truly find someone that makes them a better you. In fact, most relationships people talk about what a what a burden the other partner is or how much they have to carry or they're constantly nagging about something they're doing like I generally know that I come home that I would without her I'm less of a man for sure because of her ability to help see into me better than anybody ever has. How long have you both been married? Nine years. So you're nine and you're recent, right? Yeah. How long have I married? Three and a half years maybe. Three and a half years. Yeah. So you're in the fun. No, you had a baby so now it's getting hard it's hard as hell. That's right. Yeah, we just kind of dove right in. Yeah, we've been together though for seven and a half years and yeah and he we've been I think like we kind of always great joy and I always talk about this like the amount of life change that I've been through in the last four years is like we have moved every single year Brandon's been in and out of school I've changed jobs three times I've gotten my masters we've had a baby moved again anyway. So we've kind of gone through the gauntlet when I met Brandon and we were both raft guides in Moab and you know didn't didn't have a pot or pan to our names and so this just you know basically have become adults together which has been really hard. You know if I could give you a life hack that you know because I know I said Katrina's a unicorn one of the parts that makes sure that is that well if we see something like some sort of a state change because of some like someone's mad someone's overly excited someone's not energy isn't level like we feel that amongst each other right away and then we'll we'll put it on the table like you know what the fuck's your deal you know what's your deal and let's let's you say that exactly literally yeah we're at that well now six years what's your deal bro we got to that level right you know it didn't just overnight happen where you could talk to each other like that but we respect each other so much that if she stops me in my track to self-reflect I'm probably not doing something right or there's something I can look deeper into so we will do that and then there's things that you know I'll call out on her and she'll do the same thing to me and then together we'll evaluate that and it's it's really simple when there when there's communication that's there something that has created because and we went through this like you know first few years of course it's all awesome it's all growth that's for everybody right and then there's a point where you know you get to know each other so well that the thing you have to be careful of of is almost like forgetting about all the things that you fell in love with that person for and the things that you were doing the things you were into because life fucking happens kids happen careers happen like shit happens right so how do you stay connected something that has kept us connected on another level than anything else was we began reading together and we just chose and you could do anything like if you're a religious person read read whatever book you're reading if you're somebody who just wants to read and learn together we typically like to choose a new book together we say what's the topic that we want to learn about or no information about we agree on it we put it on audible and we make sure that minimum once a week that we do that so we stick it in what the dialogue that comes from making us be present and and it's a it's I mean because what happens when you get a personality that like myself and you find a partner who actually you know can handle you she runs just as hard and fast as I do and we respect that of each other but we also respect how that could allow you to grow apart so we've had to put in thing life or marriage type hacks to make sure that we stay grounded and connected to each other and one of those that has been a game changer for us was for sure you know making that commitment to each other to do that it's unbelievable what it's done as on a growth level individually and as a partnership so if I can give a piece of my wife called that say hello watch is um avatar where they have the little thing and then they connect you know oh there you go there it is she did it she said that I was what are your hacks for dealing with one another with each other yeah I was you read my mind I was actually oh wow you're gonna get you Sal tells us tells us the best of it no I well okay it's a nice quiet place yeah I uh I'll tell you what's drown out the sound I'll tell you what's it's difficult when you have uh three leadership minded individuals who are trying to work together because you all consider yourselves like alpha personality absolutely yeah 100 and I'm not saying I can even consider myself that no all the heads nodding yet I'm looking to our our uh resident um alpha alpha omega introvert extrovert expert over here in the corner yeah we definitely are and so under normal circumstances I guess that would be very difficult right when you have a bunch of alphas trying to work together and people would compete or whatever I think um you know maybe if we were in our 20s I I don't know if it would have worked but now uh we all have a similar goal and we all also are self-aware enough to know when one of the other you know when one of us is better at something than we are and we're okay with that we're okay with someone taking the lead because we understand what the what the goal is the other thing too is there's very few people I trust or at least I feel comfortable enough allowing to let me know when I'm being an idiot or when I'm doing something wrong or whatever and I do that with them very easily very easily I respect them and it's okay for them to say and it's not easy to hear um and acknowledge that but I also acknowledge it's coming from these guys and I respect you know the intention yeah you know you know what we're all about and you know it's only going to make us better so yeah it is tough at times though to get to get feedback you know from guys that you totally trust and respect and and you know sometimes there's hard conversations we have to have along those lines but it always sharpens us so you know that's that's just part of the deal the the good news is we're all very growth minded so that's what keeps us working well together is that we're always trying to grow if we were all in here trying to compete it would never work we just had a situation I think not even a week or two ago where Sal and I got into it back and forth and just you know each guy yelling his point and what is so awesome and it's very similar to the dynamic that I have with Katrina as far as the communication piece is that as soon not even not even two hours later you know he's texting me right away like you know hey I just so you know dude I love when we get like that it bring it brings the best of us out because I know you come from a good place and I come from a good place it's about the business and it's not about each other's egos and I love that you're that passionate about it and I'm I'm so glad that I found somebody else who's like that we'll share that and then what because we ultimately want what's best for the business so I think it's so silly when people get so angry at each other when you're debating over something that has related to the business it's just that you know it's not I hope he's right we go if we go his direction I hope he's right if we go my direction I bet his ass he hopes I'm right there's not this like I hope he's wrong so I can say I'm right fuck that that's stupid like and whatever can get us there quicker sometimes that type of dialogue where we're speaking real passionately about things where maybe we don't see eye to eye normally what comes out of that's magical and not being afraid to let that happen and then learn how to assess it after after the dust settles how how are your guys's spouses with your podcast they're great yeah do they listen no my husband does sometimes I was thinking I was like Scott Scott doesn't listen no sometimes he'll listen to like probably our 200 episode but yeah yeah my husband well he was there when we recorded it why would he need to listen to it but that's um yeah my husband does and he but they're both so supportive like Brandon well if we're doing an interview um sometimes during the week we'll just do it on Skype even if it's just the two of us just she lives about 20 minutes away from me so you know if it's in the middle of the week rather than driving down we'll just do on Skype and so um I you know work full time my kids and take care full time and so my husband knows that that evening time with my son is really important to me and so he'll you know go in and set up my computer and boot up Skype and get everything set up for me just so I can have that time to put miles to bed rather than you know having to say okay you know you got this and I'm gonna go do my thing and um he's just yeah he's incredibly supportive he's that's his personality type they're like he's in nursing school he's just such a you know like caregiver type of guy and just like that's really where I think he um feels a lot of value in himself is like if I could describe Brandon with one word it would be helper and I come I mean that in the most respectful way not in a way of like him you know only existing honey do list yeah no not at all it's like he at all times is looking for like how can I help these people how can I help someone where they're at how can I like before um he went to nursing school he was a mental health counselor for um in the eating disorder unit at children's hospital and so he worked with teenage girls basically who were you know in these life crises and I would have spent one minute in that unit and been like y'all have problems I am out of here and he just thrived in it and so like he really just yeah is so such like a connector and a helper yeah and my husband shows his support by buying me workout clothes and custom Nike Metcons and equipment for the podcast no he's he's the same he just he lets us do our thing I think you know they they embrace it and there's times when obviously we have to we have a lot going on and our schedules are busy but like they know how much we love it and so yeah they're supportive you and you you guys record at your my house yeah I have like a little studio in the back room spare bedroom spare bedroom is it the same is that the one you guys started in and that's where no we actually started on the floor with in the other spare bedroom and we just like put the microphone on a milk crate and we sat on the ground and we just recorded in this bedroom and then we upgraded to actual microphones at a mixer board and then we went to the other guest room so it's really kind of funny how we enjoy his grandma's sewing table yeah alright are you considering ever going full-time into the podcast that's the question I would say we're gonna have to have like Adam can tell I know I need another motivation guys if you're okay with like let's just record it and you can decide if you don't want to air your shit I respect that but let's well let's get into the business talk I think we talk about that maybe every month or so we kind of you know to visit that conversation and I think to this day it's been hey are you ready to have a conversation like not quite ready yet alright let's just keep going and so we can't we always touch base about it and you know before we started recording we were talking about just objectively speaking and it would be very hard for me in the position that in my life right now to take that amount of risk and you know with my husband in school and a new baby and we live above a garage that someone else owns like we are just financially in already a very risky place and so to take a financial risk like that would be very unwise in my mind not to say that you know at the end of the day it wouldn't be worth it but that's the question is like what would we need to do to make that risk how much do you struggle with that of a lot and I think you know the other thing for me is I never in a million years would have thought having no athletic background would have thought that I would find my identity in like the fitness industry and so that also is part of like do I want to make that who I am and do I want to make that my career I have a master's in environmental policy like my you know kind of whole thing has been like I'm this outdoorsy girl I want to like go save the world I want to you know like save public lands I want to save the environment do am I ready to change like who I think I am at my core and not necessarily change it but like that's the most important question though yeah what you're talking about right now is the most important but you have a you have a platform where you can reach so many different people and you have to ask yourself like who's more influential or which side of you would be more influential the one working in you know some job or or where you're communicating these ideas and able to connect with people because obviously you guys have had a podcast for this long and built an audience without trying to necessarily but you have organic and it's grown organically you obviously have the ability to connect with people so it's already there the other thing too is you already have a large audience in reality you have a full-time business if you want it's right it's already there yeah the hard parts done and they want to support you in that well there's a lot of demand I'll tell you something right now there's huge demand already let me don't hide let me let me share you let me share something with you that was very frustrating for me was that let it show we waited I in my opinion we waited longer than we should have to make that leap and and I but I understand because guess what I'm not the married one I don't have kids I don't have as much of a financial responsibility as these guys do so of course I'm the one who's most likely let's jump you know let's do this so I understood that I respected their decision but the reason why I still think it haunts us is we waited till we were comfortable and to me the best of us have came out when we're faced in struggle so I wanted to see that dynamic with I've never worked with so many brilliant like men on all levels not just their intelligence level like for business for health and fitness looking awareness good looking right about that and funny and the how how motivating they can be and how powerful they are and how influential they are and we I feel like we didn't have to do that because we waited till we were comfortable yeah and I think it would have brought the best out of us to have been put in the corner of guess what we might not be able to pay the bills next month if we just if we don't turn this son of a bitch on now that's the thing though is like we that's always the question exactly that scenario we always ask ourselves do we want to have to be there and the you know would that change what we love about the podcast and I think that's the that is really the root question is like if we got to that point where we were backed in a corner and it was like we have to monetize this or else or we have to you know sell more programs or whatever it is otherwise we're out we're out on the streets do we is that going to change what we love and is that going to turn it into something that we which is well very very important having like obviously having met you and listened to a few of your shows I don't think you guys could be disingenuine if you tried number one so I don't think anything would change you guys I think if you did enter into that struggle you probably communicated on your podcast and even talk about it which is kind of what we do believe me people appreciate it but again it's just because you're just being real just more content but I'm telling you yeah it's how we whip them out yeah we're a machine you already you already have the audience there's already a demand for something that you guys can offer is all I'm saying you don't even have to think of like literally you have an audience who's waiting for you to put out I don't know a program on post-pregnancy exercise or a program on how we would do you know how to do CrossFit in your home or whatever you guys decide to do there's already pent-up demand there and it would just happen it's already there's all I'm saying it's not like you'd have to leave your job yeah but I understand that question because that question is that's different that that's what matters because easily you not easily but with a lot of hard work right well that's and I think we recognize that is like we have like the opportunity is there and you know that's why the question comes up as often as it does because we recognize like we do have an incredibly supportive community who at the end of the day I truly believe if we were like hey guys I'm not going to make rent this month they would be like where do I send the chat yeah you know and which is amazing and the fact that there are strangers out there who would do that for us is unrealist you know it's unbelievable and unrealistic I guess but it really comes down to the question of like we have we've kept doing this because we love it and because we it's been what we want it to be and we are so like wary of it turning into being about something other than just like you know the content that we want to well you know what let me tell you let me tell you what was the big indicator for each one of us individually was at one point we all I remember everyone saying that I can't wait to get done with all the other work that we're doing in the day so we can get together on podcast and when that moment happened for all of us then it was a no-brainer when each of us were saying all I think about is what we're going to do and talk about when we get together I can't wait to get done doing this bullshit that I have to do to pay the bills right now so I can talk about what I want to do well we always I hope my boss never hears this but we always are like texting like probably 50% of what I do at my job is for the podcast I'm like on there like I have a standing desk and I like sit down in my cube so that I can like write our newsletter you know whatever it is or our update our website or what not and and yeah I mean it you might have to go full time now awesome you just did it to right my boss actually recently started following us on Instagram I was like oh no yeah she was like so not that I'm stalking you or anything but were you up at four o'clock this morning and I'm like oh no this is not good this is not good I gotta stop snapping from my cube all the time yeah so I guess when that when that question is fully answered for you I think then then from there then then we could share all day about some of the strategies like I feel like the first step that doesn't cost that much more of your time wouldn't take that much more commitment and how we kind of transition it was we just went from doing two episodes a week to three and then to four and we just we would spend instead of spending one and a half hours together we were spending three to four hours and we'd record them all well and then I have like about a two or three how long was at that company two or three year background in content marketing so all I did was like manage other people's content marketing businesses so it's like these evergreen programs and these membership programs it's like that is such a short leap for us because I did that professionally for three years for other people oh my god I know sales like hook yeah we're going to talk about you don't do this yeah are you saying you're going to take us under your wing if we oh my gosh you have skills we need you some more skills I got the infusion soft certification oh look at you you and Doug are going to hug Doug almost jumped out of chair right here if you weren't married I should make Taylor marry you already I was just for those reasons we would do that just to finish the kingdom so we would do that I would very fair player like that yeah very fair so looking ahead what is what's what you what's in the future for you guys right now well you gave us a lot to think about god damn it episode 203 I don't know we really have to take an episode by episode and I think that's why it's remained kind of you know that slow trajectory but also be you know Ben something that we've been able to kind of stick with but I think you know they ask we got asked this question at our 200th episode party and for me the answer is how do we connect with people you know to that to that place of people sending us emails like wow you changed my life and those moments are touch points that we I can't ignore and that really was what it comes back to for like why do we do this it's because even if we only get one email a year or even if we have ever only gotten one email of someone saying you open my eyes to this you changed my life like then that's to me is worth it and how can we continue to find people in that place and speak and like give them what they need and whether that's more podcasts or whether that's programming or whether that's you know journaling or whatever it is like first of all you know how do we reach those people and second of all what do they want and how do we give it give that to them in like an organic authentic way without and I think that's really the question is like how can we if we were to go full-time how could we ensure that it would remain this authentic message that we've really over the years taken so much pride in cultivating and like I don't want I wouldn't give that up and so how can we like just monetize I don't think you I don't think you would I don't think you would it's like a band that has a really good first record and then like if they go off and they're like everyone's like produced more content and they're like we don't know what we're doing and then it's like shitty content so it's like staying true to that like that piece we all got to go India and take some LSD exactly with my blood cells I mean we have it wouldn't be the first time we've been propositioned by Mike to do Hoos and Jennings for stories yeah but I think the the connection piece is what we're always looking for and so if we were to you know I think about this all the time it's like we we have this connection to our audience and we have something that we could potentially grow but like I don't want to just be pumping out content and facts or you know just like we were talking before we hit record is like we want it to be really just a natural conversation and I I'm always looking at the future of the podcast world so where it's going and you know from someone who's listened to podcasts before they really blew up in iTunes and wherever else I want to stay ahead of the curve of I hate just the back and forth interviews that are out there we won't really do interviews anymore unless it's someone that we have a relationship with because there's nothing more they hate than like listening to the same person on 10 different podcasts being interviewed with the same bullshit that they say no offense but it's just like to anyone out there who's done 10 different podcasts but it's like you regurgitate the same thing and then you're just listening to different podcasts with really just the same information and to me that's great and all but it's just not unique and so I think what we're constantly trying to do is just kind of stay true to our vision is like we just want to be Joy and Claire that's I shared that feeling and when I started to look deeper into it it also challenged us for a major major growth in the podcast because I thought our interview sucked we all thought our interview sucked and it was because it was a different chemistry and so at first I you know I blame the guests and some of the guests were not the best let me tell you we've had some guests oh we get that we've had the wrong people on our show before but we got off the interview so that also has I challenge myself now I want to be the guy like who and this is something we pride ourselves on like those because we have we just had Justin Renn who did the whole circuit we just had who else we have right I think was Rob who just did the circuit we had them like when they were hitting you know five six seven really big podcast like Joe Rogan and Fighting the Kid and they were making their rounds and for us like we want we challenge ourselves that when they're on our show that it was the best interview they ever had about themselves and what we find is what and I think you guys have the exact same strength is the ability to ask the questions that nobody else would ask well they're afraid to go that deep you know look at this this conversation you know the first half of this interview view is like very kind of surface and then as soon as we started diving in it was like okay now we're getting to the meat and like I think you know we kind of sit here and it happens with any of the people that we interview it takes them a little while to get warmed up even if you're both podcaster like you know you got to kind of get build that trust you got to build that rapport you got to build that momentum and it's I don't know it's interesting like how can you do that in a way that is different and natural and I mean it's different for every single person you have the podcast alcohol you've mentioned that yeah it helps warm everybody up yeah thanks guys whoa that's it oh my god anticipation you well Justin needs to sing a song all right and Adam needs to chime in and I just feel like oh you want to do you ever know oh my god that's exactly what I was going to say my hero yeah no come on show me you're everything I wish I could be I can fly higher than an eagle yeah as you are the wind beneath my wings oh my god that's it oh so so beautiful beautiful right thank you for listening to mine pump if your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance check out our discounted rgb super bundle at minepumpmedia.com the rgb super bundle includes maps anabolic maps performance and maps aesthetic nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by sal adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos the rgb super bundles like having sal adam and Justin as your own personal trainers but at a fraction of the price the rgb super bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at minepumpmedia.com if you enjoy this show please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing mine pump to your friends and family we thank you for your support and until next time this is mine pump