 Great. Hi Margaret. Hi town meeting TV viewers. We are here today with Margaret fowl of the Audubon the Vermont Audubon Margaret like you're gonna come in and tell us about the neo-nix Legislation in the state house in the Vermont State House and we'll get into that a little bit But tell us who you are and how did you come to the Audubon? Sure? So I am a conservation biologist and I've been at Audubon 15 years now amazingly and I started out my career in Vermont working with Raptors in rehab at VINs a long time ago Yeah, and then I ended up going back to school and getting a master's at UVM at the Rubenstein school studying cormorants, which is a type of bird on Lake Champlain and Gradually kind of worked my way towards Audubon after doing a number of years with the National Wildlife Federation. I did a coordinated Paragon and Eagle recovery there, which then moved to Audubon and When I started working at Audubon, I also took not only did I do the Paragon and Eagle recovery work I also started to work with private landowners and Talk to them about ways they can improve habitat for birds and that's sort of what's brought me to this Neonic issue because I'm now working With a lot of farmers who are trying to enhance habitat for birds and bees So before we get into the specific issue of the Neonix, I'm just curious You know, you have a special lens to look at Vermont and Vermont landscape and climate change You know, I think about the cormorants and the first time I heard about cormorants. They were growing in population And that was probably some of the work that you were doing Give me a little insight of what it's like to look at Vermont through your eyes when you're looking out there at the birds and Etc through the eyes of your specific focus. Yeah, so there's a lot I could say about that The climate is changing as we all know and With that we're seeing Pressures on birds, you know, we're seeing habitat loss. We're seeing Some birds do really well like the Paragons and Eagles that have been a really concerted recovery effort for you know More than 40 years at this point But in general there was a big report that came out by Cornell in 2022 birds are declining and so Most species of birds are declining There's some a few groups that are doing well and a lot of those are doing well because of efforts like the Paragons and Eagle recovery wetland protections But in general birds that eat insects birds that are long-distance migrants In general are not doing well. They're all on the decline. And so it's concerning because birds are the sort of indicator of ecosystem health and we Not only do we love seeing them. They're really important part of our ecosystem. So Anything we can do to benefit birds is also benefiting people and other wildlife And if I were driving around Vermont with you and you were pointing things out What would you what are things that you notice? What are things that stand out for you? Well, I work a lot in Open habitats, it's kind of my focus with landowners. So shrub and Grassland habitats. So I'm I often I'm looking for the patchy shrubs patches of shrubs here and there especially in the Champlain Valley My colleagues are forest experts and they can really read the forest and sent and be able to tell Someone whether that forest needs to be managed in a way to benefit birds better or for the health of the forest So there's lots we could be talking about while we're driving around I mean, I'm always got my eyes in the air and not Always focused on the road because I'm looking for at this time of year I'm always interested in seeing if we've got any birds that are coming down from the Arctic Spending the winter here. So there's a number of hawks and other birds that are around in the winter that we don't see at other times of Year, and then in the spring and summer. I'm often listening. So I'm listening to birds and identifying them by sound Yeah, so Transitioning quickly so the Vermont Audubon works in a lot of different ways education advocacy Correct. Yes, and science conservation conservation of our three main arms of our organization and so this focus on neo next which is a form of pesticides that are being used and We're gonna talk about that but one question that I have is we I think about Rachel Carson sort of sounding the bell years ago and then you know kind of Has it taken us really this long to respond why and maybe talk a little bit about that Yeah, so actually just testified At the state house about this bill and one of the things I said having worked on peregrines and eagles They were affected by DDT And Rachel Carson is the one that really called out The harm that DDT was doing to the environment And I think it's not it's more complicated with neo nicks. It's harder to pinpoint Especially with birds anyway that they are causing declines But one of the things I said is you know, we don't want to wait until we've lost some of these species before we act and that's what happened with a lot of the predatory birds that were affected by DDT, you know eagles and falcons are kind of the flagship But there were lots cormorants were even affected by DDT. There were lots of other species that were and so My concern is that we will wait too long before we do do something about this and indications are especially in the pollinator world that That there are direct impacts. All right, so let's talk about that a little bit. So what's the problem? What are neo nicks? What is that short for and what is the problem? Yeah, so neo nicks are that's short for neonicotinoid, which is a type of insecticide And it's used in a variety of ways and this it can be used to treat seeds when you plant Say a corn seed It can have a neonic treatment so that The point of that is to reduce a pest that is Attacks the corn Or it can be used as a spray But the most wide you widely used method is the treatment of the seeds And so what we're seeing here in vermont is that almost all anything That's not organic, especially corn and soy Tends to be treated with neo nicks. It's hard to find seeds that are not treated with it right now And so a lot of farmers don't really have a choice And a lot of farmers are using it Is the problem the widespread use of it by big Bigger corn and You said corn and soy bigger corn and soy or is this also For the farm home gardener as well. It's mostly for the large farm. Yeah, you know, there are certain You can I think it's possible to Get seeds that are treated with neo nicks for your home or grass seeds or something like that but typically it's more Likely to be just for large-scale farm operations And so the problem is that there's this seeds that are and the sprays and it's hard to get Corn and soy that it's not treated. But what's the impact? What's the impact that's it's having on wildlife or Yeah, so I can't speak as well about bees as I can about birds, but generally what I from my understanding is about bees is that it's Because it's it Kill it it can leach into the system by being in the seed So whether it's through the soil Or through the plant and so There's a lab at uvm that's been testing the level of neo nicks in honey bees and other bees around the state And they are finding that it's in the bees and there's a correlation there with decline in bee populations That's about the level of knowledge I have there but my What I know about birds is that It can both directly. So there are three ways that it can affect birds. There's direct mortality. So if a bird Eats a seed that's been treated treated by a neonic it can die That the seeds can also leach into the soil and cause You know get into the waterways and then kill the insects that these birds depend on for food So that's really important one and then there's what they call indirect effects. So While it may not kill the bird It can cause disorientation. It can affect their migration It can Throw off the timing of migration can also affect things like neurological issues reproductive success And things like that. So there's a growing mounting and growing and mounting body of evidence That is showing some of these indirect effects Yeah, and again When we're talking about bees we're talking really about not just honey bees that we're seeing in boxes that are being moved around But all pollinators is that correct? Yeah, and you know one distinction that is Being made obviously is honey bees is like a it's like a farmed animal. It's not a native species Whereas we have a 300 or more native bee species in the state And those are all many of those are declining and some are almost gone Yeah, amazing. And then I imagine if and maybe this is if birds eat Those pollinators as well in some cases they do, you know, they tend to eat more Flying insects like uh flies But also they will eat caterpillars, especially during the breeding season And they some birds eat, you know, obviously Robins eat earthworms. So some birds eat grubs in the ground so that birds eat a variety of different kinds of foods Um, but the the birds that are declining the fastest tend to be the ones that eat insects Yeah, so maybe just and you know, again, this may not be your area of expertise But again the problem if we're focusing on what's the problem is we can't get these Seeds without the treatment and so what is the alternative for farmers and how does adobon work and what's what's the conversation Around that in the legislature. Yeah, so there's a bill that's been introduced. It's called h706 It's still in the house agricultural committee right now They've been hearing testimony for a couple of weeks at this point And I think they're continuing to hear it this week and the bill itself would prohibit the sale of treated seeds but also the use so Um There was just a bill a similar bill passed in new york state and there's been a bill passed in qabac So kind of surrounding us. There've been some similar bills And the bill would kind of force the manufacturers to Provide seeds that aren't treated with neonix. Um, you know, uh, organic farmers don't use neonic treated seeds, but non-organic farmers do and This would sort of force the manufacturers to change how they sell their seeds But does it also indicate a bigger support for the agricultural community to find different ways of farming in an organic Method is that something that adobon works with say no for vermont? We do work with no for vermont in a number of ways We're not we don't I guess in general we don't advocate for or against organic But we we advocate for what's best for the birds and So in this case getting rid of the neonic treated seeds seems like it's the best option for birds And from what I've heard there was a panel that uh, uvm hosted The qabac farmers who've already transitioning out of neonix is that they're they're not having a hard time getting the seed It's not more expensive And they're not seeing a difference in yield. So What their experience has been is that these treatments aren't really necessary. Cool. So it's not a problem Not to found out. We found a not a problem problem. Right. Um, tell me a little bit. So it's h 706 That's in the house right now. It doesn't have a companion in the senate. It's in the committee still still in the committee and What's the testimony been like how what is the house hearing from What do you how are you all paying attention to that? Yeah, so I've been watching some of the testimonies. I haven't seen all of it, but um There's been testimony pro and against the bill The in general the scientific community. So uvm extension And odd bond and vermont center for eco studies have all been Testifying and no fa vermont have all been testifying in support of the bill Um And there's been some farmers that have testified in support of the bill. I've seen some testimony from other Uh, like a golf course testimony some a representative from a golf course Some testimony from the agency of agriculture Um Agency of agriculture's my sense was that they they're not against The idea of banning it but they want more studies done um and Some of the farm Um farm community is seems to be against the bill and there's concern that they're not gonna Be able to find the seeds easily and that's going to be more expensive. Yeah Yeah And what are you expecting? Are you hoping that this legislation is going to make it through this session? Well, the hope is that the committee will make a decision before the crossover date deadline Which I think it's the 15th of march and then um Help me with that the crossover date is if it's not out of committee by the crossover date and onto the floor It's not happening. Yeah, okay. Yeah And then once if it does get out of committee then it would go to the house the full house and then We'll you know, we'll see where it goes from there. I guess it's the If it makes it to the house then there will be more testimonies. Yeah So are you are you making friends through this process? Well, I'm part of this uh pollinator coalition, which is um A group, you know a variety of organizations working together the the intention was Is that the protector pollinators vt.org? Yes, great. Okay So v perk, um, I won't get all the names because there's lots of them uvm extension is part of the group Uh The sierra club uh murall vermont nofa vermont There's a bunch of us that have been the intention was to really Get the word out about neo nix do and a pretty targeted outreach campaign See what happened in new york and if the bill passed then introduce our own bill So that's kind of what's been happening for the last year or so Um, and it's been fun. I'm not you know, I'm not a policy expert. I'm a scientist And so it's been fun to see the way things work in the state house and kind of get to know the process and Get to know the people a bit um who are behind the scenes making These things happen every day. I mean the lobbyists work really hard And the legislators work really hard. They've been listening to testimony for weeks now And they're really listening carefully and and thinking this through So that's been kind of a cool process I also just want to say like I I realized that we're throwing around a word like pollinator pretty loosely And you know pollinators are important. Do you just want to talk about that for folks? Why is a pollinator species important? Sure, because it's yes Most pollinators are insects The only pollinator that is really officially a pollinator. That's a bird is a hummingbird We have one species here. It's called the ruby-throated hummingbird But they are um, you know wildlife that move pollen from one flower to another and Fertilize those flowers and they're essential for our food systems and our health of our Natural world. Yeah apples blueberries Balls everything that relies on trees everything. Yeah trees grasses flowers, you know, you name it all Everything relies on pollinators And each some pollinators are more specialized than others. So some are really specialized to Get deep into a plant and get the pollen out of there Some are more generalists so like a honeybee can take pollen from anything but some bees, you know really and some bees travel Long distances to to pollinate and gather the pollen Some bees only travel a really short distance. So there's a lot of variety out there and there's um A lot that I don't know about them, but they are essential Yeah, it is interesting to think about that and certainly like to stand Next to say in haphal tree. I'm thinking about that right now In spring and you just if you pause for a minute to hear the Sound of it and you know, mostly those are imported honeybees, but if you look closely, there's going to be a couple other insects in there as well Um, yeah, and there are little tiny bees that we don't even we can hardly see that are pollinating as well Yeah, yeah So we have how if folks want to know more about this I think also we want to show at some point the vt. Dot autobahn dot org Maybe just talk a little bit about again What the offerings are about vermont autobahn and how do people get involved and understand more About what you do at the autobahn and specifically this legislation. Yeah, so autobahn vermont is actually we're part of national autobahn, which is a national nonprofit so we are a state office of national autobahn and National autobahn has its own kind of overarching Strategies and goals and our work fits into those But we have like we said earlier three main arms policy education and conservation We have staff of maybe 10 to 15 people depending on the time of year Well, they can go up to 40 in the summertime when we have kids Around for summer camps. We're based in huntington. We have a center there that Um Is a great demonstration of forest practice healthy forest practices maple sugaring as well as a place to just walk and You know see the trails and the different habitats So sure is the sap boiling already? We haven't tapped our trees. We're having them next week. Oh interesting. Wow. Okay Yep, we hire seasonal staff to do the sugaring and they don't start till next week. So Um, yeah, it was an early year this year, but I'm sure we'll have more sap flowing. We um We have a big sugar on snow event and during open house weekend, which is a great event for families Is that in april? Is that will that be end of march 20 third? I think and Yeah, so we um You know our mission is to Connect people with birds and but we are also really you know, like that bird decline I was talking about We are trying to reverse the curve. So right now they're on the so many species are on the downward curve We want some of them to be going back on the upward curve. So our work with Landowners and partners and agencies Um and schools and everything that we do is all focused on working towards um improving bird habitat and populations great so people can go to vt.autobahn.org to see more about The opportunities there to get involved with all of those different areas and if folks want to weigh in on h 706 they could go to the state The vt.leg legislature dot Something rather the legislative page as well And look that up and find your house rep Yeah, we did just send an action alert out at autobahn So if anyone who's on our action alert listserv Encourage you to send a note to your rep Encourage them to to move the Process through the committee and into the full house. Yeah, specifically those who are on the house egg. So Um, and maybe do you know any of the house egg reps from chitinon county? I don't yeah, so that's okay. Yeah, sorry. No, that's okay. I think anyone that I met was from chitinon county Anything else that you want to add before we close up today? Yeah, thanks for having me. It was great, you know, and I hope that we can continue conversations about our work Yeah, so margaret fowl with from on autobahn and um, if you want to learn more again Go to vt autobahn.org and thanks for watching town meeting tv