 Life is about constant evolution. Always better today than we were yesterday. There are no shortcuts to a successful fitness regimen. Only hard work and consistency. And to navigate through the mountain of fitness advice available, candidates must learn to separate fad from function. I'm Daniel Fletcher. Welcome to the Only Easy Day was Yesterday, the official Navy SEAL podcast. In this extended series, we'll speak with select special warfare performance experts to clarify common training misconceptions and provide insight into areas of focus specifically important to special warfare candidates. Today, we extend our fitness series with the discussion about footwear with Director of Fitness for SEAL and SWIC training, Mike Haviston. Let's get started. Welcome back, Mike. We're here again on the Naval Amphibious Base in Coronado to talk about something that's maybe a little bit more interesting or a little bit more gear related than some of the fitness specific podcasts that we've done together. Footwear, obviously it's probably a good idea to protect your feet. So people are doing a lot of running in this program and then some other variety of cross training and movements, stuff like that. Maybe if you just want to start off with just kind of what your take is on some of the general things you see as problems or issues. Yeah, thanks. Good to be here again. Running is a very important thing to work on. I've stressed that many times and continue to stress that if you want to be successful in buds, you probably have to become a better runner than you are. And if you're going to train, you're going to have to run a lot and you're going to have to pay attention to what you wear or, I guess in some cases, don't wear on your feet. So yeah, I think this is a good topic. What are some of the common areas you see recruits maybe having trouble because of a result of their footwear selection? My recommendation would be that if you're preparing to come to buds, you should be doing most of your run training in conventional running shoes. And we can talk about some of the alternatives and some of the, we might call fads or gimmicks that people might be interested in. Some of the specialized preparation guys want to run in boots because they know they're going to have to run in boots and there's a time and place for that. But I think most of the running should just be done in conventional running shoes. So do you think conventional running shoes are a good choice for the general training that people would be doing as maybe just have a one size fits all type of approach? Well, there's certainly no one size fits all. If we talk about, okay, I'm going to wear a conventional running shoe. What does that mean? What kind should I buy? There are 10,000 different options and that's part of the problem of the sports equipment marketing world is that they developed a bazillion different products. For niches, they might have invented themselves. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, so is that really necessary? But so there's some general basic guidelines that I would give people and no one size is going to fit all. One of the things we have to recognize is that every foot is different. I mean, not only in terms of literally size, but in terms of anatomical configuration. Some people might be flat footed. Some people might have high arches. Some people might have control problems. They overpronate. So there are different things that will affect their running and the shoe can help some of those issues. And I can't hear now diagnosed all the people that might be listening and tell them if you have this problem, get this shoe. So they need to look at that more carefully and consult a good professional in terms of if they have any known foot problems to diagnose and get some recommendations for treatment. If you're going to buy a pair of running shoes, I would find a reputable running store that will give you good advice. They want to sell your running shoes, of course, but hopefully they'll make good recommendations based on your need, not just on selling you the most expensive shoe. Yeah, I think that's something that people maybe might not be aware of if there's running in the name of the shoe or it may look like a running shoe. There's been a lot of kind of crossover into sneaker culture of these kind of be more footwear, casual footwear or let's say like a street style shoe versus an actual quote running shoe. Well, so if you're going to run, I'd wear a running shoe and there are other appropriate athletic footwear for different activities and some people would wear special weightlifting shoes, for example, but yeah, if you're going to run, get a running shoe. Would you recommend people having maybe a few different two, three pairs of shoes for their training and run up to buds? I think that there might be a tendency for people either to get something like a cross training type of shoe that they can do side to side motion with like a tennis shoe or a CrossFit style shoe versus a straight line running shoe. You think it's worth investigating getting a running shoe and then maybe a trail running shoe and weightlifting shoe. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I won't say so much about the other types of shoes such as weightlifting shoes or cross training shoes. People may want to get specialized shoes for them, but for running specifically running shoes, it is still a good idea to have a few different selections and one of the things you just mentioned is a good contrast is trail running versus say pavement running or road running and so probably better designs for each of those. Also, even if you have two identical pairs of shoes, you can rotate them on different days and so give them a little chance to recompress, let's say, or like if you get them wet, even if it's just sweat, let them dry out so that they're not wet on consecutive days. So it's probably a good idea to have a couple of pairs of actual running shoes that you can rotate among. People may not replace their running shoes as often as they should. Some of the recommendations out there are four or 500 miles per pair of shoes. That's just a round number, but pay attention to your shoe when it starts to show excessive wear and it's losing the cushion that it came with and think about getting rid of those and getting another pair. But having at least a couple pairs of running shoes available for different terrain and, again, just to give each pair a rest in between sessions is a good idea. In your experience training, whether it's for road races or just run training in general, do you think that kind of general mile indicator in terms of time to replace a shoe, do you feel like that's pretty accurate based on your experience or at least in the ballpark? Well, the concept is valid, but the number, I don't know where I was, reading a study actually recently that was comparing recommendations but made on machine testing in a laboratory, like not actual people running in the shoe but like a machine wearing it out and so maybe overestimated how quickly shoes wear out and so people that if they wear them on their feet in running, maybe they don't wear out quite so quickly. So, you know, I don't know the actual number but you can pay attention to your shoes and if you notice that they're, again, showing excessive wear and losing the properties that you bought them for then you should get a pair. More in the arch support area? Could be cushion, could be arch support. They're different shoes for different feet, as I said before. So, I can't make a blanket recommendation but whatever the particular characteristics you want in a shoe, they tend to break down over time. I'm guessing it's probably the heel cushion is probably one of the first things to go. It's kind of difficult, I think, sometimes for people to make that distinction because they're very well maybe years left of serviceable life with this tennis shoe as a kicking around shoe. Yeah, so you might be done running in the shoes but you can still use them in the gym when you're doing some cross training or something that doesn't require weight support or it's going to be a non-contact activity then it might still be fine or just for kicking around the house or doing weekend chores in or something like that. So, yeah, I don't necessarily have to throw the shoes out in the garbage but don't do them for serious training. Yeah, I think that's something that is worth, I guess, highlighting for people that just because a shoe looks like it has a plenty of quote tread left on the bottom or it's not literally falling apart doesn't mean that it still has serviceable or doing you a service when you're running in terms of cushion and the idea of having a couple pairs of shoes to cycle out I think is a good way to mitigate that for the lifespan of your training for buds. What shoes do you think are good for tying to approach the idea of whether it's trail running, hiking, or like sand running? I think that's somewhere specifically that people will maybe have done some reading or have heard or try to anticipate the soft sand running. What are your thoughts on there? Is that something people should maybe investigate doing barefoot or is it a boot thing or do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, I guess maybe I'd sort of step back a little bit and just say do a lot of running in good running shoes and that would probably include running on pavement, running on trails. There are some specialized cases and a general recommendation that I've made many times for run preparation is to run on different surfaces, run on different terrain. So pavement is fine sometimes. If you have the right shoes, it's going to be perfectly safe. Running on trails can be good and challenging. Running on hills is a good strategy. And then specifically running on sand is something that people will want to consider because there will be a certain amount of soft sand running, even hard sand running, running on the beach for those that make it into buds. And so thinking about, well, okay, what should I wear? And two things that people will try or that people have explored as options is either running with boots or running barefoot without any shoes at all. So I can say a little bit about each of those things. Yeah, that sounds good. I think there's a common tendency to think, well, I'm going to buy some desert boots or combat boots and go out and do running on the beach. And I'm guessing that's probably something that you either want to ramp up to or maybe almost avoid. Yeah, a little goes a long way. So I wouldn't say never running boots. People are just curious about what it will feel like and I can understand that. I've done a lot of the conditioning runs that the candidates and buds do just to get a feel for it myself. Well, how does it really affect my running? And the answer is not nearly as much as most people think. Yeah, it'll have an effect. You'll run a little slower, but you'll get used to it pretty quickly. And I don't feel that there's a need to do an excessive amount of specific preparation in boots. So put them on just to go out and get a feel. Oh, how does this really affect my pace? How does it really affect my stride? So in terms of mileage, I think somewhere I've made a recommendation of 15% of your running maybe in boots or something. A fairly small amount doesn't have to be that long. I would recommend researching whatever the current boots and buds are and off the top of my head. I don't know because that changes periodically, but just going to get a pair of so-called jungle boots is probably not a good idea. That's probably not good for your feet, but wearing the boots that candidates wear in training and doing a little bit of training in them just to get used to the feel is going to be okay. I discourage people doing too much running in boots because it actually detracts from your run training. You run slower. You want to run fast in training. So occasionally it's fine. Too much is not good. And then we mentioned specifically the soft sand. Boots are probably actually a good choice of footwear in soft sand. Give you a little bit more support and you're going to do some soft sand running and you happen to have some boots and go ahead and try that in the soft sand. You mentioned barefoot running in the sand. Yeah. Obviously we're talking about footwear here, but I think it's worth mentioning. Well, we don't necessarily have to link barefoot running in sand together, though we can because a little bit of barefoot running in the sand might be appropriate. Although I will say that with no support, it's incredibly surprising how stressful barefoot running in sand can be. The total lack of support uses muscles in the foot that you never knew you had. And so, you know, if you do go barefoot running, always introduce it gradually. If you go barefoot running in the sand, be particularly careful. I know we're not trying to pin down exact numbers, but what does that kind of look like to you when you say that gradually? Well, let's talk about barefoot running and the way it might be introduced. And I would recommend finding a comfortable environment. Like two examples that I have access to and use in the NSW environment is Turner Field, which is an athletic area, soccer field, but grassy area. So you can run barefoot on it. It's grassy. It's cushiony. There's not a lot of debris. So you can be confident that you're not going to get cut feet and that it's going to be fairly soft. And then another area that I have access to and utilize a lot in my own training is the beach and where the guys do their four mile runs and their conditioning runs. And so you can run it low tide when the beach is firm, sandy, but firm. And so it's a perfect cushion for a barefoot run. And I actually utilize both those locations with candidates and students in training at different points, whether it's the week after Hell Week or it's the weeks leading up to starting buds and orientation. But the way to introduce barefoot running then would be to, and either there's a locations, just do a little bit of a warm-up. Do some dynamic movements. Do some striders. Do some easy jogging with your shoes off just to sort of get a feel for it. Maybe mixing some of that balance work there. Yeah, absolutely. That we've talked about previously in terms of developing the ankles. And so, you know, it's a good crossover, but running barefoot can strengthen the intrinsic muscles of the foot and some of the other muscles that surround the foot and ankle that will give them the strength that they need. So, yes, some barefoot running is good. It's just important to introduce it very gradually. And for somebody that's never run in bare feet, literally a couple of minutes as a warm-up or maybe a cool-down or both would be okay. And then at some point, maybe doing a short conditioning run a mile and a half or something like that and building up. And then at some point, somebody might be able to do, you know, 40 minutes of running in bare feet. I don't know how long that would take. And so I'm not going to make a specific recommendation. It would probably take a while, but at some point you might be comfortable doing a normal conditioning run in bare feet. Yeah, obviously there's the potential for you to step on something and hurt your foot that way. But is there risk for injury for going up too fast? Well, there's always risk for injury for going up too fast and certainly with barefoot. You mean injuring your actual foot, like the muscles inside? Yeah, injuring your foot. So, okay. And trying to strengthen the bones and the muscles in the feet. And if those are weak and you stress them too much too early, you're going to have a stress fracture in one of the bones of the foot or straining some of the muscles that surround the foot. So, even if it's a good training, modality, doing too much too soon will be a bad idea, as just any aspect of training would be. So be particularly careful though with barefoot running that you're going to phase it in very gradually and pay attention to any signs of injury or stress that you're not tolerating it well. Some people anatomically have feet that are made for barefoot running and then some people don't. So you've got to be careful that you don't exacerbate an anatomical problem that you have that you can't control and make it worse. Yeah, like just the architecture of their foot and the bones, right, whether it's their lifestyle, the shoes they've worn, or just the genetics. The genetics. I mean, genetics would be the biggest thing. For some people, just genetically, they're not going to tolerate barefoot running well. Is using a barefoot style, quote, running shoe something that you'd recommend in terms of trying to kind of ramp into or ease into barefoot running? Well, a couple of different ways of looking at it. My feeling for me personally is I'd never bother using of minimalist shoes. I'll run barefoot or I'll wear regular shoes and nothing in between. And I want to find an environment where I'm comfortable in bare feet. And that means someplace where I'm confident that I've got a certain amount of support and not a lot of broken glass and other things that are going to cut the foot. So if somebody doesn't have access to an area like I do that is secure and they think, well, I'd like to try this, but I don't want to get, you know, a rusty nail in my foot either, then yeah, maybe they'll wear. I'm not going to mention any names or promote any commercial brands. But minimalist shoe, something that's slight with just covering on the sole to protect against piercings of the foot or abrasions, but it's still generally the same as running barefoot. And the literature disagrees or there's some conflict. It doesn't really mimic barefoot running. Probably enough to get the benefits from it. Or some of most of the benefits. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So do your homework and select a good minimalist shoe or footwear and go from there. But otherwise treat it the same and phase it in gradually and don't overdo it. This kind of pops in my mind. My dad's in a lot of distance running in his high school years. He would go out to the golf course early in the morning or late in the evening. He just wanted to kind of throw that in there. If you have access to a golf course in the fairways or if you live in a community, something like that. I think that's a really great place. I mean, I'll talk about a debris-free fairway or something like that, especially in the evening, no one's there. It's a good spot. An area that has, I think, a lot of variability, specifically with minimalist versus the other end of the spectrum, wearing a type of deployment boot or a combat boot is the drop from the heel to the toe. Whether it's minimalist meaning it's basically flat. There's not cushion there. And then the other end of the spectrum, a big chunk of rubber underneath your heel. How does that come into play with your foot? Do you need to pay specific attention when you're wearing one versus the other or is it basically the same in terms of being careful when you're running in those two kind of extreme areas? Well, I think that's a good way to say it. Be careful of running in either area whatever terrain you're on, whatever footwear you're wearing. One of the things I like about barefoot running is that without explicitly telling you how to run, sort of get you to run in a way that may be beneficial in terms of your running even when you're wearing boots or wearing shoes and so being able to develop a good midfoot strike or avoid a hard heel strike which is what in general we want to do and so even wearing the boots with the high heel under the heel you can modify your foot strike a little bit so that you're not crashing into your heel and that's something that will translate well. From going and my personal training I do this to a little bit of barefoot running and then a lot more training and racing in shoes that I can modify the technique that I use in races by doing a little barefoot running and training. People probably will tune into this episode wanting to get maybe like the golden pill or the shoe model to write down to kind of maybe put it in the done list of things that I don't have to worry about but that's obviously not the case and if anything from what you're saying it's probably even a better idea to ease into running with no footwear before going out and buying a pair of boots it seems to be more beneficial to kind of approach barefoot running before even trying to go the opposite of the spectrum or is it not the case? You can probably mix in both, but again very gradually one isn't inherently better than the other both of them can be overdone if you're not careful but both of them can be beneficial if you do a little bit and introduce it gradually you could incorporate a little bit of barefoot running and if you happen to have boots you can incorporate that into your training but just in small amounts. I see that you're wearing a pair of solomons and you see a lot of guys on deployment that seems to be one of the brands of choice kind of a more ankle support or a tougher shoe a lot of people gravitate towards I think some of the more popular brands that are like you see on the street Do you think people should go out and buy operator shoes for this? No, in terms of actual brand I'm wearing now I'm not going to be running in these I'm going to use these in the gym so they're sort of like a cross training shoe that I bought at a good price and they're comfortable and so I don't ascribe any other particular benefit to them I'm a little bit more choosy when I select my actual running shoes but it's hard to make specific recommendations and so I say look for comfort and I mean try some shoes on and make sure they're comfortable on your feet if you can get them lighter without sacrificing too many other features that's probably good the issues are with your foot if you have any particular anatomical challenges or motion challenges that need to be addressed and if you can find a shoe that is designed to work with those then that can be beneficial the right shoe for the right foot can make a difference price isn't an indicator of quality just because it's a more expensive shoe doesn't mean it's going to be a better shoe so you've got to be aware of that shoes change all the time I'm personally frustrated that I find a pair that I like and then the next time I need a pair of shoes what I tend to do now is buy two pairs of the same shoes so at least if I like one I know I'll have another pair like it but at some point you're going to have to go back and go through the whole process again and investigate what's a good shoe for me at this time people that are listening to the podcast are going to be from kind of all spectrums and all ages for people that may be just starting out physical fitness, young teenagers having a nice pair of shoes is something that I think a lot of people take for granted maybe talk a little bit about what your experience is with life for your shoes I mean there's some basic stuff that maybe might seem really elementary to you but through your extended experience training for races and your profession what are some of the things that you've done to extend the life of your shoes or maybe mitigate them falling apart soon or anything like that well the only thing that I can think of that is very practical is try to keep them dry I mean if they get wet and even in dry conditions mine get wet just from sweat they're soaking and so let them dry out put them in a dry place and try not to wear them for a day or two until they're back to being dry again and I think that will go a long way towards do you wash your shoes at all for them I do not and I don't know that that would be good or bad well I'll tell you it can be bad because I washed a pair of flip flops last week and they totally just destroyed themselves I would imagine that either the washer or the dryer would be a harsh environment for shoes certainly if you run in mud wipe them off, clean them up get rid of any excess dirt surface dirt that you can scrape off I've never put mine in the washer people experience or have some exposure to some sort of insoles or stuff like that in order to kind of aid cushion is that something you think it should be best left to someone who's going to be examining your foot a professional whether they need an initial hill lift on this side I think it should be left to a professional because I can say for sure that some of the problems that are out there and so the right orthotic can correct abnormalities in the foot such that a person should be able to run as comfortably and as normally as any other person and do all the training that they want however choosing the wrong orthotic can have the opposite effect the wrong orthotic is worse than no orthotic and again price isn't necessarily the best indicator of quality there probably are some things that you can buy from Dr. Scholl or something else that would work fine for some people in some situations so I can't make that determination and every individual should find somebody that is qualified to say oh here's the problem with your foot here's what would correct it and then somebody can find the appropriate insert to use to sum up inserts can be very good as a matter of fact they can make all the difference but you have to choose the right one and it has to be done by somebody that's qualified to do that so if someone has seen a foot doctor and they have a known issue in their running whether it's an injury or just the genetic thing and they have had a pair of orthotics made or off the shelf that they know work for them is that something that they have to abandon when they come here and then kind of start from scratch no absolutely not as a matter of fact we should make everybody aware that they can continue to use that and they can consult with the medical staff here and get more advice but if they have something that's been fitted for their foot and diagnosed with a problem that their insert will correct and they can absolutely use it in training I think that is kind of a good indicator or a reminder for people that are going into buds just how seriously running is taken here when accommodations are made like that it shows that there is a lot of time spent on the feet and that there should be a lot of time spent on your feet in preparation for coming to buds I think people that are just starting out running they sometimes maybe have a tendency to really ratchet down their laces super tight or maybe they are replacing their shoelaces with some sort of elastic thing that they have seen what are some of your kind of guidelines or recommendations that are just starting to run and you see them putting on their shoelaces should they be double bowing their thing should be ratcheting them down tight are there any guidelines you think it's like how tight is too tight to put your shoes on or anything like that I am sure there is a too tight that would cut off circulation my personal preference is I want it pretty tight I want it to feel pretty good so go by comfort I actually kind of laugh at it you talk about double I mean I triple not mine all the time my worst fear is in a race that my shoe is going to come untied and even in training it's inconvenient when it comes untied so I knot them up pretty good I guess if your toe is starting to tingle that may be an indicator if the top of your foot is you take your shoes off and it's all red that's probably too tight but you know snug is good or it shouldn't be flopping around loosely so get it tight enough to be able to stand your foot properly well I think we've covered all the areas that people may have questions about but if they'd like to find out more about maybe some of the recommendations or restrictions where can people find out more about footwear training and running in general information about footwear specifically we do have a little bit and about running injuries but about run training we've got lots of information on Sealswick.com and our training forum our physical training guide and our training videos cover all those topics pretty well well Mike I think we've done a good job of maybe putting some mysteries to rest or giving some people some actionable advice on whether they're overthinking or underthinking their footwear and the amount of time they're going to be spending on their feet thank you for your experience and thank you for your time today thanks for having me my pleasure as always find out more at Sealswick.com and join us again for the next NSW podcast