 What's going on fam? Welcome back to the red man group episode 181 achieving true mastery ultimate mastery in dating and relationships I'm able to join again today by returning guests to the show He was on last weekend and other episodes before that too He's been a longtime speaker at 21 summit 21 studios events 22 convention 21 convention patriarch convention All that kind of cool stuff. He is Pat Stebbin the world's greatest most controversial Ultimate super duper dating coach. He's also the world's top expert on hypergamy You ever search hypergamy his name will pull right up super judo expert in a program me super badass dude He really is one of the best dating coaches in the world by far. He's actually one of the only two coaches I have ever paid for coaching personally As some of you know I'm part Jew so I'm very cheap like that And he's one of the only guys are paid personally for coaching him and Noah Revoy to absolute savages because I demand the best and they bring that kind of heat today shows also sponsored by Pat Stebbin's new course that we have at 21 University You can always check it out at 21 university dot-com link in the description or search on your iPhone or Android phone in the app store Or 21 University So world's greatest school for men number one school for men and the class itself We just brought into the university is directly from Pat Stebbin and it's got over 100 videos Exclusive too hot for YouTube They're now at 21 University, and they're not on YouTube ever because they're premium and Pat film them and they're fucking awesome We've even added exclusive bonuses to the course at 21 University Because Pat also has it on his own. It's not exclusive to 21 you itself. It's just one of the only two places that you can get it So at 21 University with Pat's course Where do we go here? Yeah Anyway, with the course at 21 University You'll get exclusive extra content all the speeches at the university and stuff like that Interviews podcast everything is ever done at 21 Studios including all new speeches from 2022 So check it out link in the description link in the comments pinned at the top all that kind of cool stuff Anyway without further ado, please let me welcome back to the red man group. Mr. Pat Stebbin. It's going on bro It's going great man. Thanks for having me back on It's it's not common that we have double headers like this. It's usually like once a year. So it's pretty pretty awesome Yeah, fuck yeah, man I remember even I was thinking just recently that you were on one time with me and Alan Roger Curry on the show Yeah Yeah, it's it's really sobering to have that you know to do have met people spoken to people in the Manisphere and then to have them passed away. I mean I remember when I was 21 convention back and I think 2020 I was hanging out in the sauna area or we're both like waiting to get a massage and there was a big delay And so me and Stefan Arneo just like chilled there and talk for like 45 minutes And it was a really great conversation. He like died a year later. Yeah, not even that was 2019. That's why 19 Yeah, okay. Yeah, he died about six months later or seven months later in 2020. Yeah cancer, too It's sucked. Yeah, that's a good point I mean I've been around doom I can mention so long where people like men like you speak at that I've seen four or five now die Tom Terraro Pat Campbell on Roger Curry Stefan Arneo Andrew the private man who was a famous blogger in the Manisphere for the red pill and divorce men's in particular Yeah, it really sucks man plus a lot of our friends They've had family members die along the way last year Tanner Guzzi and Michael Foster both lost a brother In the same year so it sucks But anyway enough morbid topics. I'm really happy to have you back on man. Yeah, it's good to be here So for the guys who don't know a lot about you I want to start with a really basic question How did you actually find the Manisphere and get into like the Piccobartis community or find that wing of like dating coaches? Cuz like me that was your entry point to the Manisphere It wasn't like I don't think it was red pill and it wasn't like, you know, McTower or something It was kind of dating coach stuff. Yeah, well, this is back in like 2008. So a lot of that other stuff to my knowledge at least didn't exist I Found out about this whole world sort of inadvertently. I remember I was a college student. I had a girlfriend at the time It's kind of my first girlfriend's kind of dysfunctional relationship, you know left over from high school usual thing But I remember reading campus newspaper one day this Review from some, you know college chick of this book called the game and it was oh, you know These guys were going out pick up picking up women and she was so pissed She was so scathing about it like no girl would ever be interested in that and even me who was definitely not awake to any kind of intersexual dynamics Just seeing how pissed off. She was I just sort of registered note in my mind like She's not pissed like there must be some truth to it and So fast forward like six months or so I was broken up my girlfriend and I was really devastated by it I mean, it was a it was a bad relationship and I take, you know, most the responsibility for that Frank frankly I was had a lot of insecurities But I didn't you know, she's a very attractive girl I had no idea how I got her no idea how I was gonna get a girl like her again didn't want to settle You're very young then to early 20s. Yeah, I was probably about 20 at that point and So that summer I was taking some classes at the university and I saw in the bookstore in the window the book the game I kind of did like a double take and then I remembered that that newspaper article and I figured well, you know, why not? What's what's what's the harm? Let me check it out. So I checked it out and What what happened with it? I mean even though some of the approaches that they did were a little bit, you know Outlandish not that I didn't try them. I was willing to try anything but What I really took away from it was that you could change who you are as a man You know, you had these guys who were dorks and they were getting hot girls and so I Had this mindset so I almost like kind of as a result I can remember it I can so I can realize what a lot of like the normie mindset is of like the fact that you are a most static and who you are yes, and That was a total awakening for me I had the exact same experience finding the POA community it awakened my my third eye or whatever to basically that I could Actually change who I was and improve who I was based on knowledge Just finding stuff that worked and trying to you know, hopefully exclude stuff that was broken or stupid But yeah, you're right. The normie mindset is that you're stuck your static and who you are your identity is fixed If you even have one at all and you can never change it, especially with something, you know Learning how to get hot women in your life or whatever. That was like mind-blowing to me when I found it I found it in 2005 a couple years before you. Yeah Absolutely shattering absolutely shattering so that that started the journey and I and yeah, I was in that I was in like the pickup space for a while Then I met my wife and I was already kind of you know And I admittedly like I started to explore a little bit more of like the new age spirituality stuff I was trying to because you know a lot of where I was going You know you first you learn all these tactics and then it was actually more about connection And then so I started really get into connection But then I got into those spaces and I could see that You know, there was so much bullshit that was going on and you know on the surface There was all the sort of authentic, you know connecting But there was actually still a lot of sexual marketplace value stuff and game That was going on and you know Some guys were getting all the hippie chicks and others weren't By new age spiritual stuff, too You mean like Eckhart Tolle kind of stuff or something similar to that I just I kind of call it like the SoCal spirituality community like it's just it's just kind of like between San Fran and San Diego There's just a bunch of people who are into like authentic connection and relating and a lot of it is super feminist and stupid but But there but there is there is some really good stuff in there. It's just I when I went like I'm the kind of person I'm always This is what I would say. I Knew the pickup stuff worked, but I also knew that Approaches that were more based on sort of being real and open with girls. I saw guys really getting big success with that So I'm not the kind of person who I see okay. It works in this one domain and then I say that's the only way it works When I see that other people were doing different things and that they you know They maybe had really good relationships or that they were getting, you know hot girls I was like, well, what are they doing because it's very different on the surface and so I've only I'm always looking for a reconciliation of these ideas and So I went I went and explored it and then I saw the issues there and then I and then I Fell back into and this kind of coincided with Trump Back into like the red pill in the mannisfur, which I guess like I kind of missed a period of time between like maybe 2013 and 2015 and something had happened during that time period where I think men started to view social, you know sexual dynamics and a lot more of a Macro lens in terms of structural things going on society so I kind of came to that, you know following Mike Cernovich's stuff sort of got pulled back into it and And then really became like a red pill guy for about two years And then went to sort of another integration. I think 2017 which is about two years into me coaching is when I started to find Essentially the voice I have today, which of course is evolved but There's more of a like a clear continuity between me and where I was at in 2017 Bring up an interesting point like a period of time in the mannisfur that you missed like I found the first time ever saw The red pill community on reddit, which is where it originated from really like that's where I got people see it on YouTube today But that's not where it came from it came from reddit And Twitter to some extent I think too. I mean you're more involved with that with Cernovich But like I first saw the red pill in 2013 because incidentally they find this amusing I think they were linking to a couple Nick spark speeches that were going viral on YouTube Which you probably saw this too back in like 2013 2014 one of them was our first video to hit 2 million views Which is a big deal even today back then that was like really big and I just was looking through to you know, I would see the comments The traffic was linking to YouTube. It would show me a link I was just kind of scanning through people were saying some of them liked it some of them didn't know as you would might expect This is gay Pua stuff other guys are like now. This is legit. You know, it's just like good stuff I didn't think much about it though I just saw it as some random subreddit that was related to the mannisfur But I didn't understand that they were much more aggressively like anti-feminist and they were looking at things from like a bigger lens Which we were already doing at the 21 convention at that point Especially guys like Socrates I would say and James Marshall They were starting to look at like bigger issues and not just the personal like how do I get better with chicks? It's like why is the problem for men? What about the sexual marketplace is changing? How is internet dating evolved and how is that affecting men stuff like that or how is feminism affecting all of it? There was even a famous speech You know James Marshall the coach, right? In 2014 he took a stance at the 21 convention in Tampa. We had 2014 that was like very explicitly Pro-feminist and it was hugely controversial like all the speakers hated it all the attendees hated it I almost shut the cameras off. It was like it was it was almost like a little riot I was like, oh fuck there was a fucks going on here because he gave me no warning of that Yeah, we had kind of had to later. We talked it out and he came back to the convention 2016 But it was very controversial time and I eventually built a new principle for the convention that you can't be Pro-feminist at the event like we don't have to agree We don't have to be orthodox and what we believe but as far as like this full-throat endorsing it And there's no problems with it like not bro. Yeah. Yeah, but and James and I had a long talk about that You know, what were the kind of the boundaries for the convention? It was the first time I started building boundaries for speakers, you know, mm-hmm. Well, I think You know, what's interesting is that a lot of the pua stuff. It was a response to the changing Moors in society. So the stuff that used to work where you were like a provider. You were you know, a good guy He had some level of status It just wasn't it wasn't working for girls anymore It wasn't at least enough to to get girls and so people guys started to learn game They had to learn how to seduce women, etc but the thing is if you it's you know seduction and and I'm obviously not anti seduction, but seduction to a certain extent is the male taking on a feminine Element to try to like create a sort of emotional reaction In a girl that pulls her in to him and creates sort of like an image of himself and if you if your whole fixation is on trying just to get women attracted to you Eventually you're gonna start to compromise your values and your principles because you start to really fall into a completely feminine frame And I think what was happening and I noticed this So you mean it's like corrosive basically it's your masculinity. It's it's corrosive at a certain point You know you you start, you know, it's it's one thing like you like to understand Okay, this is what this will you know, if you do this to a woman, it's gonna turn her on Like that's good information on to itself kind of agnostic But if you start to make it into some principle like here's how you get girls You have to do this you have to do this you have to do this eventually you're just you know The the top dog in the longhouse, you know, you're you're the Pete Davidson Who's little bitch, but he's getting laid and I started to see this happen with a lot of dating coaches including dating coaches who I really respected and I learned a lot from but Even if you even saw guys like Neil Strauss and other kind of high-profile guys They were kind of genuflecting the feminism in the media Neil Strauss famously had a funeral for style He actually built a grave. Yeah for his PUA persona, which is certain like 2013 14. It was so weird He had a sex addiction. He was going to sex rehab I mean some of them might have just been marketing BS to drama potential like Rue style But some of it was just like full-throat like give me that big old feminist dick in my mouth Yeah, and and you know like I don't I don't know the specifics of him with his relationship and did something you know because You do get to like a certain point of balance eventually where you know, you can be confident in yourself as a man But there's you know, maybe it can come across. I don't know. I don't really I never read a second book So I don't really know anything about it to be honest. I heard I've heard a lot of crap Oh the relate relationships one Yeah, yeah, the truth. I think it's called is that right? Yeah, I never read it either. Yeah, I could give a fuck less I probably should read it since that's my job, but But at any rate, I just I started to notice that a lot of these guys became more and more apologetic tourism Because it you know, they had to on a certain level pace the female ego in order to seduce her and and you know, this was I Didn't like it I was becoming kind of more and more uncomfortable with it and you were starting to feel like a lot of these guys who at some point were maybe coming across as masculine, but like with an open heart were becoming kind of like fishes and And then of course we had all the macro stuff going on with with Trump and I think you know, I can say it's for sure with myself, but There was really this sense that We need to we talked a little bit about this last week. So, you know, I won't go into it in too much detail but Like men need to become men again and stop orienting themselves just around women and around, you know, what women want like because eventually we're at the point where you know, someone's telling women what they want and What what they're telling women what they should want is not good for men or good for society or good for women for that matter and so we started to get into this stage of where it was like really a societal shit test and Guys need to get some balls Just to I fully agree. I want to throw a question out to you. We've talked about this Are you talked about this with Tony Bruno quite extensively in a show probably a month and a half ago something like that Do you think the manosphere is going through another shit test right now with kind of I don't know femininity is the right word But like feminism and women and case in point. We got the red pill hose as you may have seen on my Twitter The in my view this is this is me, you know, I think that this is I'm concerned anyway about what's going on in the Manisphere and this mass invasion of women over the past like two years So DC history repeating itself for a cyclical here or something like that going on. Well Then then so there's I would say in a positive sense and negative sense I mean to a certain extent this is inevitable and It's an indication of success in the movement You know, it's reaching enough mainstream influence that you're starting to have women come in on droves I mean, I remember back in 2016 2017 even 2018, you know, you had a few like, you know, we're to love them You know, they're great great girls But if there are any girls there, they're just like kind of like weird lurker girls And they knew it was kind of a man's face and they just kind of hung out one of the boys, you know And then as we really gotten the especially 2019 And and beyond more and more women it just became exponential and So on one hand there was a space that developed which was very pro-femininity And it was women who really just there talk to other women talk about their cycles talk about You know how they should handle themselves and relationships And I think that that's you know, overall completely healthy, you know, obviously there's some stupid takes but it's it's It's good. It was it was a place of women for women You know as a parallel space to men talking to men But then you also had another segment of women who Saw opportunity to talk to men and tell men what they want to hear And one of these girls was like halfway decent looking um to get Tons and tons of attention sometimes not even really that look good looking but just get tons and tons of attention for being a woman and saying it and I I literally saw women take quotes from like anon accounts on twitter and just literally verbatim stealing them and getting five times the engagement because I think guys especially on like it and Maybe it's just some unconscious simp program or whatever but they you know, they smash that like button when they see a girl say it and And so a lot of these guys are not Fully tapped into their masculinity. So they they like it when mommy tells them how to be a man. Yeah, you're a big boy You're a big boy, you know People don't treat you well Like thanks mom, you know, and that's really a lot of what the the psychological dynamic is going on Now here's where I think it gets more nuanced So among that cohort is it bad or good? I do think that there's a certain segment of it where it's not ideal to have women necessarily being the ones to do this but Is it a net negative? I don't know that I can say that like and I know this is something that you know, we might We might disagree with about I understand. I totally understand your perspective on it but like with just conservative Women kind of in the spotlight in general It's not like it's not what you want to see you want to see men doing that kind of stuff You mean beyond even the hemisphere you mean in the politics, too It's a very it's a similar phenomenon. I would agree on that. It's a very similar phenomenon. I mean, you know, all the Super super masculine demeanor, you know But hot blonde fox tv host kind of archetype like tomi laren kind of deal Or you might get like a short hair carry a lake type, you know Yeah, like looks like a kind of like a lesbian or something Well, it's it's it's this sort of aggressiveness. It's a male aggressive dynamic But they're but they're saying what you want to hear So there's you know, you're positive about it, right? That's that's the whole kind of thing At this juncture, I mean, I honestly like my perspective on it is that it's a net positive because As as pathetic as it might be You know, maybe that is going to galvanize men to take action like one of the things and I said this on um kind of forget who's where I was talking about this the other day, um, but In a tale of two cities charles dickens book he he talks about with the french revolution that It was it wasn't until the women were super pissed off That the men actually started to like rise up and do something against the anchon regime It was like the women, you know, you you have like a handful of men who are the tip of the spear who are, you know This is like kind of like us, right and other individuals obviously trump, right? And they are the ones who are out there Speaking the truth and then women gravitate towards that And then the rest of the men follow those women and I don't know if it's a state of nature thing Or if it's just a you know, probably it's a little bit of both depends on the the nature of where that society is at But um at any rate here to stick it to keep to the topic of the man is fear Think some of these women mean well and probably have a net benefit even though those guys would probably be better off Not looking to women for guidance on how to be a man Yeah There's a hundred percent of grifter class a hundred percent of grifter class and I would even argue like some of them are not just simply grifters, but their fifth columnists and they Actually they they they tell a guy enough Of what they want to hear but then re-implant programming that makes them into a bitch Yes, yes, bingo. Okay. Can you repeat that last part? Yeah, they tell them enough of what they want to hear But then plan programming that like keeps them as a bitch Yeah, keeps them on the plantation It's like it's like a runaway slave who like gets away And then you're like, oh wait, there's another plantation over here. It's it's freedom though Recall the freedom plantation. Yeah, and it's very captivating to guys. Dr. Sean Smith is you know from the convention He made a pretty astute observation in 2021 at the event That's so many and not he wasn't even talking about uh, these the women and the man is here or anything He was talking about red pill frauds. Uh, basically man is here frauds That one of the ways they capture so many guys is that they they promise them freedom They promise them It's it's like this this almost like this moral or mental slavery that just has a label Like a like lipstick on a pig swapped on with freedom And you know, I'm gonna set you free from the feminist imperative and hypergamy and blah blah blah and it Guys fall for it hook line and sinker very similar to them falling for hook line and sinker Simping for women just because she puts the red pill lipstick on i'm red pill. I'm red pill I'm gonna tell you what y'all want to hear they just fall for it so fast and it's so sad well a lot of guys don't understand there's a difference between behaving like a man and You know just simply repeating red pill stuff like a lot of guys are so fucking broken That they think that you know if as so long as you repeat red pill platitudes you're a man and you know if you Even if you like do everything You know every your entire life is obsessed with women And you know you you follow women who tell you red pill stuff and you're obsessed with everything that they're saying And if you're a guy who actually Lives like a man And acts like it, but you're like hey some of this stuff is not completely on point and that person You know you shouldn't listen to them. They're like that's beta. It's like no It's not beta like people seem to think that ideas if simply having an idea makes you a man and that's not true Yeah, I think I get this every day on youtube I mean all of my channels my personal 20 and studio is the big one everything Constantly anytime I make fun of a fraud expose a fraud expose Tell them tell them what I would just consider a very raw red pill truth. It drives them up the wall beta beta beta You're beta you're bitchy you're feminine blah blah blah It's like Dude, you are obviously the beta and you don't have the first clue of what it means to be alpha or to be a man Or to be masculine And I think inversely their ignorance is so profound That when they're confronted with authentic masculinity in an authentic red pill it drives them it drives them nuts Like they can't they literally don't can't process it Because they have no model that is even remotely close to reality what it means to be a man or to be masculine or alpha or whatever It's the fact that i'm presenting them with anything authentic that is that was driving them crazy My fiance thinks the same thing that i'm like i'm Compared to these dudes like what I write is so you know, maybe over the top But also still masculine and alpha or whatever you want to call it That's what aggravates them so much It's not that it's beta. It's that it's actually fucking alpha and it just drives them crazy They have for example, too You might have figured this you might have come to the same conclusion But they basically look at betas who are like loudmouths a little bit on youtube and whatever, right? And they confuse this with authentic Alphaness or masculinity and so being alpha to them is screaming at like some retarded mammy's like bimbo Who's 30 pounds overweight and has you know eight tattoos And like this makes you alpha and it's like no this is They basically like like dude. I'm really sure you've banged a lot of hot chicks I have too and this is like impossible for them to understand Because i'm not some loudmouth on a camera to them. I'm like calm cool collected They make all kinds of insults and stuff sometimes and it's like dude Women I can make I learned how to make women melt and it took a long fucking time And you know the first fucking clue what it takes to do that You think this idiot who can't even have a functioning relationship with a woman is alpha male And in reality, he's like some hurt mama's boy yelling on youtube at people Yeah, they think they think they think role is an alpha male. It gets insane hilarious, yeah, I mean All all whining Emotional reactivity is so much the antithesis of alpha And yet that's so much of what the the red pill space is there's just so many of these people And well, it's naturally collected a huge bunch of beta males who are broken Yeah, and it's like it's like this giant echo chamber of beta at this point And it's all self-validating. They all just try to validate themselves in this situation It really isn't much different on a psychological level From what you see a lot of feminists do with each other When they have a really miserable life and experience and they have all sorts of other women who have miserable life and experience and then they talk about how it's not their fault and You know, it's it's because guys and because of the patriarchy and create all sorts of you know, bullshit to Explain away why they wasted 20 years of their life day and idiots and you know, not getting married and having babies so it's I've always looked at them as sort of mirror images of each other And you know, it's it's not It's not fixing The problem you could argue it's a stepping stone like I will acknowledge that I think that for some guys, you know It's it can be good to have like a period of anger and You know, when you change your beliefs for some guys, that's that's what they have to go through but When I see some guy like when I see some guy who's On those shows saying the same shit and he's been saying it for more than two years I It just blows me away. I have no idea How you how somebody can continue to say the same shit over and over again The only the most charitable answer is that they realize it's a really good business And it's that they're just okay. I'm going to keep saying it because you know Now I'm I'm the I'm the big week and I get more and more money from it Otherwise, it's just incomprehensible to me because it shows whatsoever It's a positive feedback loop They pair it what people want to hear and then they get money from it So they want to pair it more to get more money And it's it's just a slippery slope to being a huge sell-out, but it feels good in the process You know getting the prey it's not just money either. It's positive validation the emotional feedback from fans You get surrounded by people basically who are butt sniffers just sniffing your butt Yeah, um, rollo is a great example of that I have a lot of other issues with them And he's not the only one I can't even pick on him for it Like these dudes just get the algorithm picks it up for whatever different reason male or female People kind of sniff their asshole and tell them how fucking great they are They pair it things that people want to hear from eight years ago in the manuscript and some blog And then they get money from it and then the whole cycle just repeats itself like a snake eating its own fucking tail Yeah, and you know I was gonna say what's interesting is that You know, you've had your account Like, you know, you've had you've been banned on twitter before you've you've had all sorts of censorship issues These guys never have any censorship issues. That's right You know, they get promoted by the algorithm and nobody thinks about that. Nobody thinks about why You know, it's a very convenient useful place to have men in a little resentment loop not doing fucking anything Yep It's also really convenient, you know, for example, the amru fraudal You know from fed and shit down in Miami Was a federal agent for the department of homeland security from 2013 to 2020 something he freely admits now And he magically retired as a federal agent and now he joined the manosphere and instantly blew up And even when he had guns pulled on a show multiple times live on youtube One girl flashed her vagina one time live on the show in 2021 Oh, yeah, this is these are big deal. They quickly took the video down, you know Yeah, he filed over 50 false fraudulent copyright strikes against other creators Um, which if I did that on youtube and anyone you would get instantly terminated Yeah, which is what they what did they warn you about if you file a false copyright strike Under fake pretenses you can instantly lose your account. He did over 50 of them and had no they did nothing Yeah, you know one time one time you got a seven day warning or something for I think one of the guns getting pulled or something But it's like the dude the dude could fucking kill somebody live on youtube and you know, they'd be like Oh seven day seven day tent ban. I mean, it's insane because he's a federal fucking agent Like he wants to think about how fast it was I mean, yeah, I You know Once the feddo is it fed? Exactly exactly. I mean his entire job is being a snitch for seven fucking years for the federal government for ice for dhs For hsi, you know, there's kind of the different relationships between these things he worked for but Something i'm looking into i'm going to file a FOIA request still i'm working on it And see what I can expose with probably a bunch of blacked out ink on paper from them, but sure You'll get a bunch of redacted documents. Here you go. Yeah, exactly Yeah, yeah But yeah, it's a sick Yeah, it's funny too because a lot of his fans are black and they usually have a huge resentment against cops And they'll be like pig pig pig. I hate pigs And it's like this guy was literally a federal pig for a long time and you think he just quit all of a sudden like Where's the street smarts bro? Come on, man Yeah, it's it's hard though for a lot of guys when their ego gets wrapped up in the messaging Yes, he gives Their identity they feel I think like they're part of something and it's really this is huge like federal operation with a little bit of jerry springer mixed in with this stuff And it's a sketch. I want to switch topics though. There's a comment that came up early on that I thought would be pretty interesting Yeah, so this is from tim johnson. No relation. I don't know this guy Is it better to focus on your life first and build yourself up? Uh, then look for a good woman because I've been thinking about this lately a tweet that would annoy people and anger them Because a lot of got like a lot of twitter, you know alpha bros or 19 year old millionaires multimillionaires, right? Yeah, they made 80 million dollars working from home on a laptop two hours a day Um, almost as good as uh, zolenski, you know but but my thinking is that This this theory that you know, just just focus on yourself, bro Get the money bro. Get the money then get the women It's like if you actually figured out how to make a lot of money and in your 20s and stuff And then you get a woman. She's gonna take all your money. Yeah, that's almost certainly how that's gonna work because you're gonna be fucking clueless What are your thoughts on this? Yeah, I think So I I think it's very contextual and I'll go into that but I will just just to your point There is a lot of stuff of guys saying, hey, you know, you you work all throughout your 20s And then you can enjoy all the stuff in your 30s and I get the argument, you know Let's say you really grind for a decade You can become maybe a multimillionaire your way ahead of your peers And then you can get you know, hot young women, etc. And there's truth to that but You know, there can be truth to that depends on the guy. Um, but Their 20s are like a magical decade like you're not gonna There's always trade-offs. I think this is the point. You're always gonna have trade-offs And so if all your friends are out partying and doing stuff in their, you know, hanging out meeting cute girls in their 20s And you're only grinding you get to your 30s and you're gonna find another mismatch You're not gonna have necessarily as many guys who are out going and trying to pick up girls Now, maybe you don't care about that. Whatever. I mean, there's always exceptions to this stuff If you really make it to a certain economic level, maybe this isn't a relevant conversation, but I I always like to look at balance with this kind of stuff Like you shouldn't be fucking around in your 20s and not doing anything trying to move your life forward because It does set a good foundation for your 30s and beyond But don't forget to go out there and live go out and talk to to women. I think for some guys they You know for some guys Talking to women is exactly what they need in order to gain their confidence and they can try to bury themselves in the work and even the gym and avoid all this stuff But part of themselves is not whole Because and they can tell themselves say i'm in monk mode. I'm in monk mode girls don't matter It's all just kind of cope and a lot of the clients I work with are guys who Kind of realize eventually like i've been coping for the last five to ten years and Now i'm ready to actually deal with it, which is great uh, the only the only thing that I really feel for sure is Is that that like a guy should put first before he really starts to focus on women Is some base level of fitness I think if you're like a super fat fuck And you want to focus on on trying to meet women I think that you're you should be focusing on the gym first because it's just so I don't I don't get the point. I mean, I'm not saying it's impossible for you to be able to get women being obese But why would you dedicate your effort there when you are Going to make it so much more difficult for yourself And there's I mean it's just not good for you in general So that's the only kind of exception. I mean, I I think okay if you're not making any money if you're if you're dirt poor You know and your focus is on trying to meet girls Well, maybe, you know, you're also not focused quite on the right things Maybe you should be trying to get a little bit out of your hole. So it's a very contextual I just think monk mode is is cope 95% of the time whenever someone says that they're just saying I'm afraid of women and I'm going to do everything I can to avoid it. Yeah Hey, here's another tough question. It came up. I know this guy too. Steven Hederli It's from the uk. I think he says any advice dating with the disability Well, I guess it depends on the degree of the disability Okay Like, you know, there's But the fundamental thing like I work with a client years ago who was um, I don't know Exactly what what he had but it was it was some sort of Disorder where, you know, I guess his legs are kind of all tripled up and so he was in a wheelchair And What's most important when you have a disability is you have to on an inner level Really get okay with yourself Because it's Like a disability, you know, depending on the degree of it. It's going to be A real negative from the physical attraction standpoint. That's just a fact But the worst thing about it is that people with the disability often view themselves as being You know, somehow less worthy and women really sense that that need and The combination of the two things makes it, you know, you have to have an extra strong sense of self to compensate For any sort of external issue and what happened with this guy is he ended up becoming just like When he we finally let go because he had so much pain and of course it's understandable I mean you you watch other people get what you want around you all your friends get, you know, they get pretty girls You never do you're always left behind like it's a lot of pain like I get it And he had to let that go and he went and he traveled around the world and he and he Just absolutely positive person and then everybody loved him everybody loved him everyone wanted to be around him his energy was contagious and Then he didn't have a problem getting with girls so Basically Yeah, basically it's like almost like a math equation like you have something that you can't change. That's a severe negative So you have to fix that where you can that's what you're saying you got to elevate it to compensate for that to balance it out Yeah, you know, and I think something that people with disabilities Maybe don't realize the ones who are who live like like people with disabilities Polarize so much because your average person can kind of have like an average sort of energy to them They might be a little negative. Maybe they're positive But people with disabilities, they're either just like the most toxic energy to be around you know, just miserable people or they are absolute light bulbs because They found joy in life despite what they had and so they're in some ways. They're more spiritually tapped in and you as a regular Person like they inspire you because you're like what the fuck, you know I take this stuff too seriously. This guy is just filled with joy all the time and he's like doesn't have any legs There's a famous guy. Remember him. He died recently. Sean. I think the little guy Realized he died. Yeah, David David data or David D'Angelo rather Yeah, Megan used to have him all the time. I hit that little bone disease, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I forget his name Yeah, I might have been Sean Stevenson or something like that. Yeah, something like that. Yeah Um This makes sense. I wanted to add something like that didn't he get like some like hot nurse Wife. Yeah for a wife. Yeah I would be concerned about gold digging at that point But maybe he didn't really care or maybe it wasn't an issue because he was that positive guy like you're saying Yeah, and you know and then just to be pragmatic um If if she's treating him really well Yeah, you know at what point do you really care? Yeah, you know, yeah, you have to face you have to face the reality of what you're being presented with and just deal with it And yeah, exactly. Why would he care? It's like, well, she has to deal with this I'm going to deal with that and it's going to be okay. It's like if it's if it's like a fair or an honest exchange in a way On a side note, this is very minor compared to actual disability because it's temporary and really minor but I've been on crutches at a couple points in my life due to knee surgery and The first time around I noticed I got it was very brief. I mean we're talking like two weeks here with crutches I just got a shit ton of attention when I went out to bars The second time around actually pulled like really hot, uh, you know, Brazilian chick Uh, because it just made it everywhere I went and just like fucking huge my club I just got like VIP treatment constantly free table over here. Everybody's getting out of your way Everyone's like, oh my god, what happened blah blah blah I mean, it was like it actually made it a lot easier so much So I was like man, I should just fucking fake this and bring out crutches to bring hot chicks home Well, you know, it's I think that there is a difference between a temporary injury. Yeah, huge. Yeah Is with a temp injury It's almost like, you know, you can still be The alpha but then there's an implicit softness that's given to you. Yeah, which sort of, you know, it does the work of balancing out Um, a woman's attraction for you So this is the whole idea of like why women love to take care of a guy when he's sick or injured You know, all these love stories of soldiers getting a nurse back to health fall in love with the nurse Um, yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of romance there, but it's with you know In those cases it's with the soldier who ultimately recovers right because then she she nursed him back to health and there's all this Yeah, it taps into something for sure. It was just surprising like I was in real pain Like I just had knee surgery and whole fucking leg was swollen like a huge pain in the ass You have atrophy and a lot of the muscles You know, but I still went out of the buddy and it was just hilarious to see like the level of treatment I got from everybody every staff every bartender every security guy every chick like It's like, oh wounded alpha. Let me come take care of you. Like, uh, sure. It's a fucking go That's kind of kind of hilarious. Yeah, um, I want to bring up something else A couple things actually So one of them the other day we're talking and you made a pretty profound But a simple statement that I think needs to be is discussed here and explored at least I'd like to And you said if I'm quoting correctly that the mana sphere is a mentally unhealthy space Uh, which kind of echoes a Mike Cernovich quote from years ago on twitter that the mana sphere is the ghetto of the internet It's not the same thing, but it brings it to mind So if I'm saying it right when you say the mana sphere is a mentally unhealthy space independent of its beta-ness and other fraud issues and stuff What do you mean by like mentally unhealthy and can you kind of impact that for us? well, yeah, I mean fundamentally I think some of it's a level like a feature certainly in the early stages because you have guys who Who are in pain? I mean, it's it's pain that's causing them to even want to Want to explore these ideas? um, but a lot of people who I think Are there's two other phenomenons too. I mean, there's a lot of people who are on the fringes of normal society in general and they just sort of Will gravitate towards any sort of fringe group because then they feel like, you know, they can They can blend in and then they can find some level of acceptance and People are usually super mentally unhealthy and often predatory And I think that the other phenomenon that you have with it is that There is a How do I put this Well, it's kind of what we talked about earlier. I mean Especially on on the more public facing side of things You have people who Who want to grift off of it and they see a bunch of hurt individuals who are looking for guidance And they are have narcissistic tendencies. So then they talk more they find out this is what everyone wants to hear I'm going to say it people are going to look at me view me as really smart Move me as important. I'm going to get this validation that I'm looking for and the guys who are hurt even if they're not like Super mentally unhealthy themselves, but they're just not in a good place They can get manipulated by it and gravitate towards it because it's difficult to discern for the average person Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of trickery and shenanigans going on even worse. I think in other industries It's like the fitness industry and stuff like that the only industry I think maybe worse than than like dating advice in the hemisphere would be like money Almost anything to do with money on the internet is like Fucking scam not all of it, but it's like it's like there's this again That's like cycle of like spend money to make money. So it's like the snake eating its tail And it just attracts some of the worst fucking sick people around But sex and and dating advice make it very taboo. So it's a similar feature. I think Or it's a similar issue going on Yeah, you know, it's we we make fun of a lot of normies but To be fair, you know, a lot of normal the average people They don't even think about any of this stuff because They don't have any of the problems in their life. It's not even on their radar and So because we're sort of react. There's like a reactionary aspect to this You have reactive people who go to reactionary places And I I do think that a lot of individuals go in here and they learn and they come out better I'm not saying it's a net negative. I feel the complete opposite actually but But we'll have to be aware like if there's one thing I could like really hammer on Do not trust a guru just because they're loud and they tell you what you want to hear There are so many narcissist and predatory people. I mean, I can't even tell you just how many it's been I mean, I've been in this space for 15 years I don't even know. I mean the number of people who have actually had some Longevity in the space and who have maintained integrity is probably like 10% like it's it's really low And it doesn't mean that even if you end up hearing something from a fraud that you didn't take something Good away from them. But like really be careful when it comes to trusting anybody in the space and look, I'm not saying that you should trust me, you know, like Do your due diligence and assess whether or not you think But like definitely do due diligence on people. It's important. Yeah Yeah, there's a lot of goofballs out there, man. I mean, I've shown many of them on my channel Yeah, it's kind of amazing to me that some of these guys like in your case Well in the background you see, you know You like me or is it? You know, you have yourself a hot young fit white woman and you're not going to wrap and you're married and having a great time Meanwhile, these guys are with like, you know, 50 year old single moms Who are like 80 pounds over weight? calling themselves alpha males Kind of a sharp example is a red pill dating coach and he called this woman in a hard nine Maybe even a little higher. That's a real quote The pigs are from a different image obviously, but It's it's the level of insanity that goes on in this community that is just like really profound This guy too. This is a real photo of rollo. The mcdonalds is obviously added But this is a real photo from rollo at my convention a couple years ago in florida And we put the makeup on him, you know, obviously, but this is your alpha male I actually laughed at him when he walked on the hallway wearing this suit I was like, there's no fucking way to put this suit on but he did. That's a real picture of him in a real suit That's alpha male red pill alpha male Who married an older post-wall woman after he knocked her up on accident? And then he has the audacity to call me out and this is what he did. It's like the fuck out of here, bro He's been bitching about post-wall woman for 20 years since he got married to one Like I guess I just don't get why I mean, I okay I I get why but there's just so much inauthenticity with it and and there's and there's an obvious lack of growth I mean Yeah, when I when I started in this like I didn't know how to talk to women started dating girls Date a lot of girls hooked up with a lot of girls Got married went through this whole process navigating being married. Now I have two kids. I mean Like I don't understand why this is so unusual Like why do people get stuck and they can't seem to break out of Like a single message they find that that's single single message and they don't grow anymore They just it's gotten even worse than that. There's an entire community I think in the two communities I would say distinctly that are related in the hemisphere that have sprung up that all they are stuck Like the pua was not like that the men's rates. I don't think are like that The red pill is not even like that, but migtau community and the black pill community A lot of this is like I'm stuck and I know it and I'm proud and they go nowhere They're like singing about how stuck they are and they're like Fuck all women never gonna have women again never gonna get married never gonna have kids I'm gonna go no fapping the woods for 50 years and be happy and it's like bro Do you even hear yourself? You're talking about fucking sex dolls and escorts the rest of your life. Like holy shit. This is not healthy, man Like you gotta you gotta pull back a little bit, man. Yeah Now people gotta face themselves. I mean, I've been humbled multiple times throughout my I mean, obviously I was humbled in dating, but I've been humbled in my marriage You know almost at the worst at one point, you know, this is and we've definitely had You know fights I don't try to pretend to be this guy who was had a perfect relationship the entire time But I try to always Explore what happened and I pull stuff out of it And you know, I actually think it's my vocation I think it's the reason I'm so good at what I do is that I've had to go through Every single problem that clients face Like I I haven't been able to just simply Like lark about something Like and sometimes I'm like, why does this have to be so difficult? Why do I have to but because you know, some people it's I think it's more natural And I don't know that it was fully natural to me. What was natural to me was very strong sense of self And understanding that I would figure out everything and so I kept peeling back layers and peeling back layers And you know, this is why I love the master class Which is why I'm really Honored to have it hosted on on 21st. It's the only place. I mean, I I've had other people They want to do affiliate stuff. They want to I've always turned it down It was the only place that I I felt like I could do this besides for my own platform was was 21 university Oh, yeah I appreciate that man. I appreciate it big time And and the master class it is this continuing evolving piece So one of the reasons I wanted to do it was because I was having the same conversations with guys over and over and over again and I felt like it was a waste of my time and I You know, I at this point I was like I would have calls six to ten hours sometimes even in a given day It was just like and then that was like five six days a week. It was really starting to burn me out um So I was like I have to change this up A lot of these things people can watch a video on I can deal with their actual specific situations rather than talk about these concepts So yeah, you're scaling out your your knowledge like in your experience to people. I love it Exactly exactly and initially it was just supposed to be for coaching But you know it figured well, what's the point of not selling it if I already produced this whole thing? I can sell it as a course and so that's what I did And then I updated a year later because I'm like I got more stuff to add to this or some things I missed I mean it's due for another update as well um in the coming months And because and and that's how I intend to do this like a lot of people want to Split out to have multiple different courses on specific topics. I totally respect that. I understand the business model to it But I really just wanted to have this complete Encyclopedia Exactly It's it's going to keep getting expanded. I mean there is so much That I've drawn out since the last update was just 2020. I mean it's Last three years. There's there's going to be probably an additional seven hours added to it um And you mentioned encyclopedia and that's really what you built It's encyclopedia of like manuscript wisdom and for specifically for men in dating and relationships. It's huge It's like I mentioned in my newsletter. It's promoting it like it's way bigger than I realized I thought it'd be, you know 10 20 30 40 videos Maybe tops that even that would be a shit done and then you dump this like 100 over 100 videos at me. I'm like, holy fuck Yeah, yeah, you're you're asking me when it was going to get uploaded. I'm like, I'm doing it It's going to take a few days. You're like, what are you talking? You know, I could see you're just like confused Yeah, but yeah, I was like constantly uploading one after another after another after I had to like call Google to like get more drive storage Yeah, yeah, man. I'm really proud to host them in it's one of the only two of the premium classes We have at the university along with Richard granan's Course on complex ptsd Yeah, I'm proud to do it. I hope to have a couple more speakers too Um that have like really professional video courses like this because it makes perfect sense to bring it into what we do Because he spoke with the event so many times and stuff like that What what else can you tell me about what led to the mastery class or the creation of it? Where did you film it? Was it filmed in New Jersey and like how long it had taken stuff? Looks really nice. Good stuff. Yeah, it was filmed in a in a studio actually in my hometown. It was a really nice backdrop and a guy Some of you might know him on twitter tiger joseph He does like amazing videography stuff. He's a young guy And so he he came out and when we did the first Filming of it that was three days from, you know, the second we got in there till when things closed And then um, and then we came back a year later for a one day session one full day To add more to it and yeah, I expect the next time it's probably going to be like a two-day session. Maybe maybe yeah because you know Between just little breaks in between um As much as in my mind, I'd like to say like, okay, we have eight hours We'll do You know seven hours of material it never works out that way end up getting you know Maybe five hours of material for every eight hours in the studio Yeah, so yeah, it's impressive to just how massive it is I mean again, not only the number of videos, but even the runtime is just for your contents over 18 hours I mean this would take someone like probably a couple weeks to get through Even if you're going at it like every day and they can go back to it over and over again That's the coolest part is how specific it is too or one of the coolest parts Like you're just hitting like on every single topic, you know You can think of with the manuscript in a way and you're going to add even more. So it's like there you go Yeah, so I'll I'll go through and I'll talk about what I want to add to it What I feel it could it needs a little bit more on just to really Like I mean a lot of this stuff is stuff that I drew out in the last few years um So the first module is all about um deep work And so it's a lot of it's like depth psychology healing reframing a lot of your own existence and your interactions with women So it's it's the foundational module and everyone's got to go through it because otherwise you're not You're not developing the right paradigm in which to consume the rest of the material So it sort of changes the way you you think and how you perceive yourself and how you perceive this journey that you're about to go on module two, I think is probably the the sexiest model module And what I what I mean by that is this is the one where I don't think that you find a lot of this stuff elsewhere This is on like dark female psychology And female nature and there's some sort of basic red pill stuff in there but we go like way deep into red flags and Assessing a lot of discrepancies in female behavior and what it means And that is like massive for discernment so that you don't end up with some You know demon harpy kind of woman that destroys your life. I know what that's like. I'm married to fucking hooker, man Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly like psycho hooker module three is all about attraction and game so lot more videos in here, but they're a little bit shorter And talk about a lot of different concepts and generating attraction viewing attraction sort of holistically through interaction What, you know, the stages of of attraction essentially And that's basically your your rundowning in game. So And then you go to module four module field four is about dating And the difference between three and four is that three sort of just teaching you these tactics and concepts Four's taking more of a strategic overview. So here's the different areas that you go out and date In here's how you develop, you know, social circle game Here's how it's different from day game versus different from night game The various contexts that are involved in these environments how you would apply the tactics differently How you manage dates how you manage, you know first date second date, etc Honestly, dude, when I hear this kind of stuff It's like nostalgia to a better time in the atmosphere One guys would argue between direct game indirect game day game versus night game like This is this was such a better. I mean, look, it wasn't perfect. There was plenty of frauds in two But compared to the fucking retard dogma shit you hear now Where you have these like beta retards bitching about hypergamy 24 hours a day It's like, oh my god, bring me back mystery method and the m3 model Wait, no, well, you know what anthony and this is I think the What you've really hit on here, which is that even if people were disagreeing about like in sort of like an Autistic way about what approach they should be doing people were actually doing approaches They were actually talking to women, you know, they were out there and it was maybe You know kind of hilarious to see the argument about this stuff But you couldn't say that that these guys for the most part I mean for the most part were not actually going out In meeting women and picking up attractive women whereas now you just have a bunch of like, you know theorists They're basically like they're basically like shitty university professors. Yes who sit there There's a lack of enthusiasm now and excitement for women It's become like a lot of it's not all of it, but a lot of it's become this very negative and pessimistic nihilism Just rampant skepticism Rabbit skepticism that you would see even say in a philosophic sense That you can ever have a happy relationship that women can ever You can ever build a family and our current climate and you can ever do this and ever do that It's just like this absolutism that is not based on reality Like we were talking the day too about surrogacy some men in the monastery now are promoting Strictly only having kids through adoption or surrogacy with egg adoption So that there's there's legally and more or less physically no mother in the picture And it's like I get Why someone would suggest this and it's cool to see it being agitated Because it raises awareness on like really serious problems and men's men face in the legal system But this is also delusional like no, I'm not going to have a surrogate woman I'm going to bust him out of neuro and okra on purpose more or less Yeah, and I think you know people need to see beyond their own circumstance and to see No, that was that was the one thing I always did as I looked at well These people have something that works. Why does it work? You know, even if it even if it was uncomfortable for me and even if it did lead to some, you know, letting go of some beliefs I had to see why why did work and I this is so much. I think about what the masterclass is it you know What I'm doing in it is I'm synthesizing all of these different Ideas and I'm putting them in their proper context. So why they work when they work You know and and so they kind of they build on each other and so we get to the module five and module five is about relationship management and intimacy So it talks about essentially how to have a deep and fulfilling relationship Um with a woman or a sex doll. I mean we're talking modern man is for her, you know You gotta you gotta be specific. I don't think the sex doll guys are gonna get a lot out of the masterclass So I would not recommend that they buy it Um And then we get the module six, which is sort of more Hang on hang on you talk about sex in the masterclass and this is interesting to me because I should probably talk about it more. Maybe you are of a similar mind But if you look at the modern manosphere all these like fake red pill gurus that are banging like literally 50 year old single moms That are 80 pounds overweight lying about it. I mean it's It would be hilarious if it was a saturday night live skit or a mad tv skit from 20 years ago But it's not it's like real life. These guys are just beyond goofballs But if you listen closely to what they say not only that they lost in theory And then regurgitating the theory for a positive feedback loop for validation attention comments money whatever super chats, right? But it's like they never ever ever ever talk really about sex Yeah And all the precursors leading to sex of like foreplay kino We would call it in the old met the old manosphere touching her shoulder her elbow like how you're gonna make out with her One of the things I developed personally is actually stopped going for the kiss Uh on whether at a bar nightclub or even on a first date I would actually like much more gravitate towards sucking on her neck first, which is very aggressive But I learned how to do this because it's super effective when you figure when you fucking figure it out And you learn how to calibrate it so you don't fucking get punched or slapped in the face Right, right, right? But if you if you suck on a woman's neck or kiss her neck before her face anywhere you've The chances of banging here go up like 80 percent Like her more And when I figured this out I was like awesome And do red pill gurus ever talk about this or anything even pertaining to it? No You do that by talking about sex and other stuff. You get it. I make a seat on your face when i'm saying you know what i'm saying Yeah, yeah, it's it's more primal You know it triggers that you know kisses can be kind of romantic. It's it's a nice thing, but but yeah going for the neck She's feeling like now this guy's gonna take me Well, not only I would but I learned how to do it in a way that was usually It was a little little it could be it was professionals What it was that's what that's I think a lot of what actually communicated was like very deep pre-selection Because they would know right away if this guy's doing this. He's like a pro Yeah, how did he figure out how to do this a lot of other women? And that's what they want they could say at least track on bitches can say whatever they want Uh, even lori alexander the famous track on woman who I love an amazing woman of support Her husband if I think did he have sex with another woman? She said she I think she said she wouldn't even care on my show if he had sex with another woman Even though that would be sinful and her and her philosophy and stuff and christianity Because she still loved him and it you know, it's For women they'll rationalize this kind of stuff very quickly like oh, well, he did this and that but it's okay And they're the receiving end of anyway. They get the expertise the other girls get nothing they get left in the dust That's what I tell alissa, you know, I'm like, hey those other girls got shit and the end, you know, you got the baby and all that shit Won the race So it's so yeah, we talk about sex. It's it's there's a lot of You know, if I ever if I ever talk about some concepts I always ground it in the practical so that there so that you understand The utility of it. It's not just some sort of larping um And you know, one of the things I actually do want to expand a lot more because of what I've learned the last three years Is to really take a lot of the relationships up to a further level So when that gets updated in the next few months, I mean major reason to get the master class sooner Is that whenever I add new material, I always bump the price up But you already have the course you just get the new material. There's no like added fee for it So it's always good to get in sooner and then you sort of have lifetime updates for free In module six is is Not something that anybody should go through until they've gone through all the other modules some of the the topics are are um It they they really require an understanding of what happened in the first five modules Because now you're going into a lot more deeper stuff as to what it means to be a man What it, you know, there's almost like How do I put this There's almost more of a philosophical aspect to some of these things because they they challenge a lot of the conceptions that you built you feel like you got the mastery and then you have this other thing and and then It it almost prepares you to go to levels that Most guys don't go to with women So like you you orient yourself completely differently afterwards. It's deeper levels of healing it's um, it's you know managing multiple relationships if that's something that you want to do and um Then yeah, it's it's uh That whole module was added in the second filming Okay So and then there's some bonus q&a's which is which are great Answer a lot of questions in those in the second q&a is actually very specific to things in the master class So, you know, I'm doing a video and you know, maybe in a specific video There was something that you know, how you know, what is like You know, maybe there is a little little piece that you know, you didn't understand how how This concept would be used and I don't know I don't I don't remember what the question was in the in the master class video But people would go through my master class videos and they say what about this does this apply in this situation? And so I would then answer that stuff in the master class video So you add a little bit more More nuance and context to the whole thing. These are these are really long too I mean, most of the videos are from like, you know, seven minutes, you know, four minutes 20 minutes I think in some cases, but they're all around like maybe seven to like 20 minutes tops And usually the average is maybe around 12 or something But the q&a's are both like an hour long. I mean, they're the longest videos. I think in the whole course Yeah, yeah, so and obviously to brag I've added all of your content that We have at the university to the class as well They can also get it or this content separately through just like a regular membership or free trial But this is your latest speech from 21 convention for men This is your first speech in 2019 the three pillars of attraction Your 2020 speech Yeah, 2020. Yeah, healing your masculinity Your speech to women at the 22 convention to then guys can still learn learn a lot from And your interviews on the 20 on report as well Yeah, huge value with all this stuff to get all that stuff added Yeah, it's like 25 hours basically content right now. Yeah, so it's fucking awesome And almost all this is exclusive to the class either a 21 year on the one that you have independently hosted Yeah Um, and I wanted to mention something based on what you said fucking less train of thought with it Oh healing It's something we do with healing. Oh, yeah, a lot of these guys for example, let's talk about love That's something that is that's another taboo subject in the manisphere that is never ever ever ever ever ever really talked about unless it's like You know women don't love and they only love dogs and blah blah blah It's just it's like can you love a woman like is that okay? Is it okay to be in love? Is it okay to have a wife? You know, it's it's easy to say. Maybe you have children. You love your children. That's a separate non romantic love obviously But is it okay to love do you love your wife pat? Is that okay? Is that red pill talk to me about love? Sure Well, I do love my wife. Um, my wife beta beta My wife is badass. I mean, I know you're not supposed to even say that kind of stuff, but Mm-hmm. She's uh, she's ride or die. You know, she's ride or die and Yeah, I won't say it on air, but when I when I've when I've had confrontations with uh, With certain agencies, you know, you could really see that and how she behaved towards them. Um, yeah so, uh What I think guys don't understand is that on it, there's only really two emotions Love and fear And everything else is just to continue them in between it So You so to say that like love makes you beta That's coming from fear So a lot of these guys they are caught up in fear and the variations of fear which are, you know, anger Envy, you know, because these are all based on the concept of lack or not getting something Whereas love You know, love is liberating. I mean, I think this is this is the this is the thing that guys don't get because Maybe, you know, they loved a woman But what they really had for a woman was a deep need for her to validate them A codependency a codependency and then when she broke that codependency and you know, probably became codependent with another guy They They view that, you know, love doesn't exist. There's no such, you know, if you if you love this is gonna happen to you And that's just absolutely Absurd it's an absurd thing. Um, when you love somebody It's actually very freeing it's it's Because you can I don't know how to I'm trying to think of how to how to explain this but it's You can maintain a power dynamic with a woman And I think a lot of these red pill guys the best they do is to have some really crappy power dynamic with their wife and They they maybe get a little bit of what they're looking for but it's mostly just around Because she's too afraid to leave him like as you said codependency But when you and the other person love each other, but you love yourself It's like this is I think this is the thing is that People assume that love is codependency whereas real love comes from first love of yourself And you love yourself you have an awareness of yourself and your boundaries And then you can you can actually love another person and you can love them to a certain extent You know even unconditionally And it doesn't mean that you do anything that they want you to do. I mean, this is the thing it's like what I don't think these guys know what love is But they're afraid of it because In order to go in that direction, they would have to face themselves Like you can't love honestly or cleanly When you are in dissonance yourself Otherwise you always have agendas on the other person And or if you have I mean you talked about boundaries like you have to Not only have an awareness of them. You have to have them period You have to you have to build them. You have to know what they are you have to pick them You have to choose them And a lot of these got these betas and stuff for whatever reason they're raised by single mom You know the parents are divorced. They saw bad examples of masculinity and femininity Um, maybe they got they went through divorce rape, you know in the courts and that kind of really Sidewind their thinking on on relationships There's a lot of different ways you can get broken, but a lot of these guys don't have boundaries And they get into really unhealthy relationships This is I went through this with the medusa experience. I mean it took and it took me years You know, it was a learning progress or process, but yeah to kind of figure this out for myself by studying, you know psychopathology and trauma and You know cpt sd Richard grandon was a huge help for that I'm other guys too even like sean smith and some other, you know books. I've read on psychology and stuff Learning about myself like where did I fuck up? How am I responsible for this? A lot of monastery guys think I have a really hard time taking responsibility for that You know for their own choices in a relationship and you know Women force you to face yourself in a lot of ways And so when guys are avoiding women, I what I really see is that they're avoiding themselves And You know, and this is this is why like I think every relationship as it evolves is going to have periods Of pain in it. They're gonna it's going to have periods of frustration and misunderstanding within it And some of this is, you know, a lot of this is is the two of you Growing into into better people and you know, if you have shame and you have fear buried in At a certain point in your relationship after the honeymoon phase, those are going to brush up against each other And your question then is whether you're going to succumb to fear and then keep the separation from each other Or whether you're going to address it And then heal yourself through the process and then you become closer and the love deepens so I mean it's it's a lot to It's a lot to talk about Um You could have yelled about hypergamy. I mean, that's a lot simpler. Yeah, hypergamy Yeah, these are the deep topics. I think that I mean another thing about the man another issue at the manospheres It's so many guys are so distant from here because of how they enter the manosphere through trauma and pain Whatever it is, you know, whether you got locked in the friend zone Or you know for by 20 30 different women or your ex-wife stole like all your shit and your kids and you're like really angry They're just like so far from this that it It's like the distance takes time and because the manosphere always has new New guys finding it. It's this constant influx of broke and fucked up guys That if you say something like, you know build a loving relationship with the woman and have it deep in And go through this stuff. They're like never I'm gonna bang sex dolls forever instead And and and this is and this is such an important point and actually why I've said I said like, you know people like rollo or some of these other, you know dating coaches or whatever I don't know. We wouldn't consider himself that but We're not actually in competition with each other at all because he's dealing with a different demographic of men Yeah, and I am I'm dealing with guys who are ready for something more and The master class It really is about showing guys this context this progression of You know, you feel this way at this stage and then Here's how you evolve out of it. Here's how you break out of that and then here's how you break out of that and Not it's not going to be for every guy a lot of guys just don't want to progress in peeling back these layers of themselves, but And they don't want to do it because it's scary and it's painful spiritual growth is physically painful but Being a fucking bitch is also painful yes and one of them only one of these things leads to deeper amounts of self-confidence and Deeper levels of mastery with women the more when you can start to shed a lot of this pain and resentment You become irresistible to women in the right kind of women You know as well because the really really toxic women They're you know, you're just gonna completely That they're they're not you you and them are going to be like oil and water There's not going to be any connection with it. Now. This is another there's another issue that a lot of these guys have who are super and like black pill stuff is that Their energy is so toxic and negative. They're constantly drawing towards them toxic and negative women like no decent woman Wants to be anywhere near a guy who's exuding that kind of resentment So you get predatory women and then they don't But they're so they're so myopic. They look at this is their experience and they say this This is everybody's experience. It's a very like You know, honestly, it's kind of arrogant To say you can't you can honestly say I posed this question to them What what about all these people who actually have happy health relationships? How do you explain why they have a happy healthy relationship? And they don't have a fucking explanation for it They said excuses luck random chance. Oh, it's gonna it's gonna fall apart anyway. Oh, you've been married for 30 years It's still gonna blow up in your face. Yeah, I'm gonna look at guys I mean your marriage is much younger, but look at guys like michael foster Even Tanner guzzi definitely ellie halls. Yeah, they get to sit 20 years These guys have awesome beautiful feminine woman and a bunch of kids There's shits on the kids and all the cases really ellie. It's on the low end a number with four kids Never mind foster and tanner and tanner keeps cranking them out so Yeah, it's it's michael foster too to his credit brings us up to the man's sphere through his twitter and stuff from time to time It's like what about the marriages that work and their relationships that work They don't all fail Like some of them work really really well these people are really happy and they produce children from that Who are really really happy and what you know high functioning? Yeah, it's the whole state of the culture is just a fucking it's sad and it's a disaster And that's it. I mean, it's like do you want to be a constructive influence or a destructive influence? If you see that there's all these problems you should be looking for examples of what works and trying to mimic it You shouldn't be looking for you know excuses to say it's like everything's done. You know, I mean There are still healthy people out there And we need to use them as archetypes to navigate towards You know not as you say And then that was some You know porky woman, but I think the the worst thing about that is not even whatever his wife looks like it's it's the general sort of demeanor That he has a message that he's trying to put out there Yeah, it's in ruins Between the two things I love this one Yeah, there's actually videos. I thought about bringing clips on the show Um, I didn't do it. I didn't take the time to do it another time. Maybe we could do it But with conom and sharp for example, there's there eclipses of him just other channels have found these I mean red pill examine people can go search that and find recent videos that where he's compiled of conovan Screaming at his woman very like legitimately abusively like it's it's abusive like what the fuck It's not loving. There's no love in this relationship. It's pure codependency Dysfunction and bad health like it's sick And this is what guys look at for as an example on a role model. It's like bro This dude is just screaming at the top of his lungs at this woman And pure frustration and anger. No emotional stability raised by a single mom, obviously He's admitted that too, but it's like Yeah, it's so sick, man. I've seen you and your wife's great. Lovely feminine woman Hot young white girl, you know, it's awesome You know someone I've said before a guy should lionize you. I wish they would But their head is like so far up their ass. It's like a it's like their head is like a fake red pill They shoved up their butt Yeah, the real red pill is that you know life is good women are good It's good to be a man. It's good to be a woman. It's good to have a family. It's good to have kids You know, oh my god What what a radical I am and this is like radical talk in a monastery these days We're like radicals rebelling against this orthodoxy of red pill retards Yeah, I mean saying life is good and that you can have a good life. That's the ultimate heresy Yeah, yeah a woman of that a woman Yeah Yeah, I wanted to um, you have to get off in about 15 minutes. It's not even Um So I wanted to actually I wanted to switch back to something I thought was pretty interesting Or we could talk about which would be tradcons um So jack donovan uh a speaker and tony bruno both have encouraged me Um consistently and through their credit to maintain the influence at 21 convention Of dating coaches and any kind of man focusing on that on dating your relationships You're a good example that the zan parry on is a good example that among others Alan roger curry almost spoke last year before we died We're really working on the dates and the flights and all that kind of bullshit It didn't work out on the end unfortunately But anyway to their credit, you know, because there's there's been Over the years has always been influences to push me away from dating coaches from relationships from pua anything to do with pua um Anytime I add something new people or people want me to get away from it basically like get rid of that stuff I'm like no jack and tony both of encourage me to keep that in And I agree that's that's why I keep doing it. I mean, I don't care what people say they want I think this is really important many to hear it But even the tradcons are one example that They can be hostile sometimes to anything to do with like dating relationships At least in the outside the context of marriage like, you know, oh, don't have sex outside of wedlock You're gonna go to hell blah blah blah I mean, obviously if you have a if you have a religion that dictates that and you believe that's true You're gonna have to advocate that in some capacity But I still think my concern with the tradcon stuff, particularly the more hard line they get with it Is that they're sending young guys into like a meat grinder totally unprepared With no meaningful competence with women. That's what I see with you and I've always seen that even my fiance sees that in you She thinks you're almost as awful as me. We're just saying a lot She loves your newsletters for years now. She's been reading them because I kept retweeting your stuff for I always retweet your ship But obviously put you on a radar But yeah, it's like these young men from whatever even if they had two parents Or a single mom or whatever in their the zoomers and millennials like They need to be competent with women is my view And what they do with it is up to them and whatever philosophy they subscribe to and so on but like That competence is good and it has to be built and you really I think are an advocate of that Or at least that's my belief of what you're doing. What do you what do you use on the track on stuff? Basically? well, I'll just say I think that guys need to go through There's natural stages of development And so I'm not I'm a Christian although. I'm kind of like a more esoteric Christian. I'm not super dogmatic So, you know take that for what you will but I I believe that You know guys need there are there's this process that guys have to go through and If a guy Really does not have any competence with women I don't think you are serving him By by telling him you should just get married I don't You know, and I don't even know by the way on a practical level. How is he going to get married today? I mean in certain communities, maybe they'll try to arrange the marriage But then you just have you know, it's just it's a disaster. You just have repeats of generational trauma And it is dangerous. Yeah, I think it's I think it's dangerous. I mean I and I don't Honestly get the point of it. I don't get the point of it. Um I saw a guy recently do the track on we both know he's interviewed both of us and stuff and we all that We both interviewed him too. I don't know his name, but he was advocating. I think if I'm remembering right Not only it's like we could go on twitter Not only don't have sex before marriage don't even kiss her before marriage. Yeah, and I'm like dude. What the fuck Yeah, I I think this stuff is just it's it's a recipe for a disaster. Um I I think it's you know, sexual shame is a really really big issue that destroys destroys relationships between men and women and honestly feeds on um Feeds on a lot of degeneracy. I mean without going too far down the rabbit hole a lot of you know It's my contention that a lot of the the stuff that you see today is just You know a psychological reversal of what we had during the victoria victorian era We're like, you know, you couldn't even have sex with a woman Couldn't even really see your wife naked, you know, and you just do it sort of in the missionary position with like the lights off and half your clothes still on You know, everything anything else would be would be dirty, you know, like this is this just creates massive um massive sexual suppression That comes out and stuff like, you know pornography addiction or or seeing hookers and stuff and and that's the thing The the the christian community they have a lot of introspection to do and I and I think, you know, while you while you have all these cases of um, you know for every every like good healthy happy Tradcon couple that did it all, you know the right way You've got at least another one that, you know, the girl's off cheating because the guy doesn't know what he's doing and All this sort of sexual desire has been suppressed and told it was bad. So she has to You know, he or she has to get it out in some other, you know, clandestine area That's that's one of the reasons that half of these mega pastors You know have come out to be really disgusting people In terms of their practices. So I think it's really There's sodomites the bang and hookers. I mean this has been going on since the 80s at least And stuff like that. I mean all sorts of really just incongruent behavior and I would rather people go through a process I don't want to say get out of their system. I don't I don't think that that's the correct Way to look at it. It's more that they just need to be able to Feel themselves go feel their competence as they go through the process and and one of the things that Like I prized myself on with coaching is that I take guys through this process and They they learn how to get better with women, but they don't even necessarily need to stay out there Just banging girls over and over again. They they can they can learn the lessons at a very expedited Rate and honestly if if they don't want to have sex for their religion They don't even have to do that you don't have to go that far But this is not like the ability for a man to attract a woman Is something that should be agnostic What you do with it you can add some sort of moral character to but the ability to do it is agnostic and and when I see When I see religious groups that are really afraid of that men learning that what I see is that they're afraid of they don't know it themselves and they're afraid of Maybe facing, you know, what they have buried under the surface, you know, I'm sure Michael foster maybe has some slightly different opinions about it, but it's notable that he doesn't Take offense to any of this stuff because he has that confidence himself And it's not to him You know something that is super super triggering He's super he's secure in his own masculinity and his competence for his relationship and his marriage and his wife that much I agree on 100% Yeah, I think too. He even she was a freshman in high school I think when they met and he was a senior and then they got married when she graduated at I think I'm stating the story right approximately But I'm pretty sure even that they made out and kissed and stuff They didn't bang until they got married. He said it was really difficult I don't I don't doubt it You know for both of them, especially at that age be like fucking 18 19 20 like your hormones are raging But they they were not like anti I don't think he's anti kissing and shit like yo chill out man Yeah, I'm I am so strongly against that when when people are Are like you can't get until marriage. I don't I have no idea this is This is the most impractical like they're I don't know what they're trying What what kind of world they're trying to prepare their child for dude? I think some of them are gay actually straight up in the closet. I think of the guy I'm talking about right now. I'll send you the tweet. I think like he's in the closet I think a lot not not a lot a lot of them is a figure of speech It's not like an actual majority of them or a huge percentage But a lot of these guys there's the old saying I didn't it's not my quote It's an old saying that you know religion is the last refuge for scoundrels And I think a mana sphere version of this that would actually be pretty Independent of whether you agree with that statement religion is the last refuge for incels and gay dudes That are not that haven't accepted that yet about themselves or whatever And they use the the philosophy of whatever the particular religion they're following is To try to deal with that but it just leads to suppression and angst and anxiety and And it's a very severe cognitive dissonance Say a lot of these guys I mean the catholics do done the catholics in the mana sphere some of them at all They're obsessed with like jerking off. I'll talk about porn and jerking off like constantly don't jerk off No porn It's like man the lady doth protest too much bro. Like why are you always talking about porn and jerking off? Yeah, this is weird. There's a lot of there's a lot of projection that You know for their and for their own struggles and and whatnot and I don't I don't think that anybody can really get rid of That I mean you might be able to put it into hibernation Yeah, but you like if you have a sex drive You're not going to be able to just Get rid of that you have to find a way to channel it in a more constructive manner And a lot and you're not going to be able to do that unless you feel really comfortable with fucking You feel okay with fucking you feel okay with sex you feel okay with getting what you want sexually If you don't do that that's when you start to get super degenerate It starts to get twisted and all sorts of different fantasies because there's an anxiety behind it It's hidden it gets really buried and it becomes in some cases You know porn is the best case scenario other times it can become a totally different parallel lifestyle Yeah, um marrying marrying a sex doll like yeah, yeah, I mean I just I don't think a lot of them They don't they don't approach a guy from where he's at and they want to throw a boilerplate at him And you can't do that. I work with so many different types of guys guys who are guys who like have no experience whatsoever with women guys who have no problem getting laid but can't seem to keep like a healthy dynamic with a girl And guys who are in serious relationships marriages who are having all sorts of Fights guys who are getting divorced going through breakups. They're all at different stages of their life. I can't Say like I can't apply just you know, I just go talk to more girls to the guy who's already You know banging girls. No problem. That's not the issue You have to actually address the issue And you can't say to a guy doesn't know how to attract women. Hey, just be yourself. You know No, you you he needs to understand how women operate. He needs to understand how to create tension Because he doesn't even know who the fuck he is because he can't create tension If you can't handle tension, you don't even know who you are. Don't give a crap about I'm I'm just I gotta be authentic Well, you know an authentic man creates tension Or you can you have the capacity to you have the ability to And you have the ability to withstand it when people bring you bring that stuff to you This is what freaks people out my my brother-in-law to be he said uh after watching me like on the news appears morgan and different videos and stuff He's like man. I never want to play poker with you. You have like a perfect poker face He's like always like dead You made this comment about me too and I really appreciated that I think you said Uh now I'm not saying it's perfect and I think you understand that even at the time you made it But absolute emotional control. Yeah, I think is some is pretty similar to what you said about me at the convention Yeah, and I've learned that for different reasons not all of them that were good a lot of that had to come came from like a really violent Uh severe childhood severely abusive childhood where emotional mastery A combination of emotional control will say Uh was a survival method that I needed to survive In addition to figuring out my environment and using my intelligence in my brain to like This navigate very difficult environments Even as a young kid and I didn't a lot about the world So I had As you know, the kid you have few options of what you can do But these are some of the tools that I developed and that scares people. I mean there's people over youtube in the hemisphere Now some of this is this propaganda from people who fucking hate me View me as a competitor or whatever. They called me like school shooter over and over again a psycho Uh rollo has called me a pathological personality. I think over 50 times now Talk about projection. I mean number one Number two, it's like man, you just These guys get so butthurt over anybody that has any kind of legitimately alpha trait Or any kind of command power to command tension To deal with tension and not even flinch But you know, it's even it's even beyond that with you anthony because you've also been real about Genuinely painful experiences, you know with your ex-wife With your with your family. I mean There's there's like there's there's a vulnerability there like you don't pretend Just simply be like you have this emotional mastery And you know, you have this frame, etc. But it's not like You're pretending that you've never had to deal with anything difficult and that you've never experienced You know some level of trauma, you know, a lot of these guys they pretend that they've been like Alpha perf you know, I don't want to say that they've never had any problem ever You know, they've always been and it's bullshit. It's absolutely Or they trump up like some really superficial circumstances that And a lot of cases didn't even happen. Yeah, like oh Conovan recently was talking about how he's sent for like a a cokehead single mom that did cocaine all the time and it's like, I don't Maybe this happened, but I'm not even sure this happened It sounds like an elaborate story that is made to entertain And and feed spoon feed the masses. They're they're in the man's sphere. They're uh Bread and circuses, you know what I mean like oh ha ha ha. He's sent for a cokehead single mom it's like You probably were just doing nothing getting a five finger pussy like it's really went on there like I banged all these strippers in vegas. It's like no you you didn't they they don't even want anything to do with you Like you obviously never banged a hot girl in your life is really what's going on here I think that's part of what was so difficult about the the fraud issue in the man's sphere is that Some of the fraud that goes on is so cartoonish and so over the top that like It's beyond even comprehension that this is fake because it's so fucking fake. It's like I don't know it's it's exponentially fake and guys are just like what the fuck is going on here So they just choose to believe it Almost out of like a laziness or something an intellectual laziness or I don't know. It's it's a very weird phenomena Yeah, I appreciate it that man some of the comments you made about stuff like that Yeah, my life is not I've had a lot of really severe trauma that I've had to deal with Some of that, you know, it'd be my own fault in a way It's kind of you know, it's making mistakes that lead to bigger mistakes like a snowball effect Other stuff was dumped on me as a kid. I had to deal with it But I've done a ton of dumb beta shit, too I don't know some guys think I've like always been super alpha giga chad and that's not the case Even my fiance has a really difficult time understanding that sometimes That when I was 17 18 19 like I was not banging all these hoes yet. I had to figure this out It took and it was very difficult for me to learn how to socialize like that Especially pulling same at layers, which were like I mean for most guys that's like a They never even happens. I mean, I would think they don't even I wanted to do that I was again, I'm gonna do that I'm gonna figure it out and it was fucking hard, you know, but they have like this movie level The cinematic like version of it. It's like no, it's a lot. It's a lot simpler than you think But it took me a long time I'd approach I've approached like deal almost 7,000 women Somewhere between 6 to 7,000. I don't really know the whole count. I lost count over 6,000 Stop I stopped even trying to count That's more than most uh most dating coaches Yeah, most dating coaches don't even have ever done shit with that, you know barely anything Especially these days are probably just on tender and instagram and shit like that. It's true It's true. No one no one learns the old school stuff anymore But I'm out there and and I think that's that's actually very much to their detriment Like not that there isn't a specific skill to online dating and that you know, you shouldn't adapt with the times but There is something about like can you go and can you Make a woman attracted to you when she doesn't know who you are and can you just feel your energy? Can you handle that? I mean that's tension, right? Not hiding behind the screen hiding behind an image That you've created for yourself Or even hiding behind in the old days, you know, you hide behind like a A canned opener you would call it which it doesn't mean they're totally useless like chicken or fish or like Who lies more men or women? You know this goofy shit like that But eventually over time like I read of all that stuff. It became much more situational and contextual with it Or it's like hey, I'm Anthony. What's going on like simple simple simple Yeah, it's like training wheels basically you start off and then you got to take them off Yeah Well, hey man, I know you got to bounce. I really appreciate your time today It's been a blast having you on again. Well, I'll be on again soon probably on next weekend But sometime in the near future Hope to see you at the event this year too 21 summit. So this I could fall in florida. I'll I'll be there if I can Yeah, yeah, I look forward to it man. I love it 21 21 summit is like it's there's nothing like it on the planet, honestly Thanks, man. Yeah, I think it's like the heartbeat of the hemisphere as how I consider it sometimes Yep guys, thanks for tuning in make sure you check out the Pat Stubbin master class Now at 21 university for the first time ever launched us a few days ago link in the description. Check it out Um, a super badass over 100 videos over 18 hours of exclusive content Not on youtube or any other platform in the world besides the class itself Pat, thanks a lot and everyone check out Pat Stubbin too directly on his website at Pat Stubbin.com Yep on twitter at pat underscore Stedman Okay