 Okay. I think we have everybody in here. So welcome. Thank you for being here for the latest event in our 50 years of women at Fairfield Celebration. My name is Jessica Colligan, and I'm happy to welcome you on behalf of Fairfield Alumni Relations Office. Throughout this anniversary year, we have been thrilled to highlight so many accomplished women and our three panelists this evening are certainly no exception. Leading this evening's conversation is Dr. Aaron Weinstein who joined Fairfield three years ago as a member of Fairfield politics department, and he is now the director of our prelaw advising program. I know some of his students have registered for this event and I feel confident they will learn a lot from this evening's conversation. Before we get things started just two quick housekeeping notes. First, I ask that you please keep your microphones muted throughout the event just to minimize distractions for our speakers and for our other guests. And second, we encourage you to use the chat feature in zoom and submit questions for our panelists, and we will do our best to get to as many of them as possible as time allows at the end of the evening. And now I will turn things over to Dr. Weinstein to get us started. Thank you so much Jessica and thank you all very much for coming. At least for us here on campus is the first night of our spring break, spring break sorry Easter break I misspoke so I am pleased to be here I'm excited to be here really quickly a little about myself for those of you who haven't met me yet. I'm Dr. Weinstein and I teach in politics politics of course is in the College of Arts and Sciences, and I study American politics and political theory I focus on political thought specifically religious political thought and 20th century political thought and conservatism and liberalism. I also have the honor to serve as the director of the prelaw advising program. Many of my students are here as well tonight I do see them and I welcome them all as long with the alums and the parents and the other students. So, real quick, I'm going to start shutting up and I'm going to turn things over to our wonderful alumni who are here as panelists. So we have as quickly introduce all of them, all of whom by the way, former College of Arts and Science alums. Erkamporeal is graduate of Fairfield in 2012. While she was here, she was a politics major and had a communications and studio art or sorry, concentration in studio arts and Italian studies. Also captain of the D one women's cross country team. She didn't Quinnipiac law school she graduated in honors in 2015. She was a partner at Wiley Edder and doyen. And she works in transactional law and in 2017 she was nominated by her peers and recognized as New England super lawyers rising star. And she is admitted to the bar in Connecticut and in New Jersey. Our second speaker is Ellen Morgan. Ellen graduated from Fairfield in 1986 where she majored in psychology. She was born and raised in Stratford Connecticut. She attended Tulane Law School, graduating in 1989. In 1992 she became the first woman in first black assistant town attorney in Stratford. She has extensive training in mediation having attended the Center for Mediation and Law at Columbia, the dispute settlement center Inc in Norwalk and child protection session of Connecticut's juvenile court system. Family law including elderly law, juvenile law, social security and many other areas she can tell us about. And we also have with us Kelly McClure and Kelly graduated Fairfield in 1981 where she majored in political science. She attended St. Mary's University School of Law. She also attended Oxford University's law program. And over the course of 25 years she has specialized in family law representing numerous individuals and representing them very, very well. And winning sort of very sort of good outcomes for them in terms of the settlements. Kelly has numerous awards and there are too many to list but I'll just give you a few best law firms by US News and World Report top rated women leaders in the law by American Lawyer Magazine and top attorney in North America and who's who and all of that is just this last year. So, with this, I will turn things over to our speakers, first to Nicole, and then to Kelly, sorry then to Ellen and then to Kelly. And we are going to have them briefly introduce themselves tell them a little bit about their experience here at Fairfield. And specifically thinking about mentorship to begin with. So what it was like here on Fairfield on campus, the mentors that you had specifically I would hope to hear about any women in particular who were mentors to you. And then what brought you to law school and beyond so we'll start with Nicole. Thank you Dr wine scene. First off, I'm really grateful to be a part of this panel with such other great female attorneys. Well, thank you for that. A little bit about myself as Dr wine scene said I graduated from Fairfield in 2012 so I would be the youngest member of the panel today. Which is why I feel so lucky, but after I actually am originally from New Jersey, I moved to Connecticut to go to Fairfield and then to law school at Quinnipiac. I'm still living in Connecticut now. I did major in politics I actually started out as a business major, and to give business school, all the credit that it's due it was tough. And at that point I realized, you know, I do want to focus on my goal of going to law school and becoming a lawyer so I transitioned to the wonderful College of Arts and Sciences, focused on, you know, growing my, my skills in reading, writing, analytics, all that. And it really did help propel me into the career that I have now. So I utilize advisors within the school at Fairfield. I think that was probably the best part about Fairfield is that there's these open door policies you can always go and ask the questions that you need to ask transitioning from the business school to the school of arts and sciences was pretty seamless. And it really allowed me to, you know, accomplish my goals. As Dr. Weinstein said I also ran cross country I was the captain of the team which, you know, as part of the growth of leadership skills that I had learning hard work dedication. I'm not a teacher in particular, or advisor but I think that what I want to point out is that the pre law program now is really a great tool for that and I wish I had it then and I'm so grateful that Fairfield now has such a great pre law program so that students like me can find that advisor find that mentor and get to law school. So, you know, after that I, you know, really enjoyed my time at Fairfield, I met my husband at Fairfield were stag meets and, you know, it's a very common thing. I went to law school, I went to Quinnipiac. Just spent a lot of time there focusing on my goal of becoming a family lawyer which Kelly is a great one but I didn't wind up enjoying that as much as I thought so now I'm actually practicing law. It's not transactional work but estate planning so wills and trusts and things like that. Elder law which is actually my favorite part of my practice and probate work so you know I've been practicing law for I think five, six years now. Time is flying. And I just really enjoy what I do so I'm welcome all your questions about any aspect of Fairfield getting to law school law school itself being a lawyer. Well, and I know we have some questions lined up that I'm excited to answer. So, looking forward to it. Thank you. And actually I just realized that in our notes it was going to be Kelly going next. So, Ellen is it okay if I slot Kelly in. I don't want to, I hate, I hate to go out of order. Yes. Thank you for having me I feel I'm very honored to be part of this wonderful group and the connective with the Fairfield friends again. I had a wonderful experience, like Nicole a great experience I was a class 81 it's hard to imagine their 40 year anniversary was this year is coming up this year but I was really fortunate I was a policy I had a lot of great teachers. And Dr. Wein senior in Donna Ruma Hall. He was one of my professors and he was really instrumental in helping me. Like Nicole said back even back 40 years ago is very open door policy. He really was helpful with the cigar, telling me, you know, giving me advice because I didn't have any of my family that was a lawyer. And Dr. Katz was another professor that was really instrumental in helping me kind of navigate what I was going to be doing going to law school and then had a wonderful English professor already real and in fact, I saw today that I had his handbook still in my desk of how to write a proper letter and proper grammar. And I saw that I was in the Northwest dorm and I had in my book here where I was. But I, I had a great experience with the whole philosophy of Jesuit was education was really instilled in and when I was there I know it is now to but. But, in particular, Dr. Katz and question about women that have had had an influence particularly helping on the journey. I will say really the class the women in our class, Laura Incerno as I see Laura is on the in the panel. She is an amazing woman that that I was in class with. And the other women that were in our class, I think really is what helped navigate me through the journey are, even though I'm living in Dallas, Texas. We have a very close group, we see each other all the time and we connect even though it's 40 years later, which I think says a lot about the school and the values of the school, but there are a lot of very strong women in our class and Janet, who's here. They are not showing her face but is another one in the class right behind us so I really feel fortunate with that I live in Texas I have four sons that are all in their 20s and and for years my sons always told me you work too hard mom I'll never go to. I don't never want to be a lawyer and now I have three of them in the lawyers are soon to be lawyers at George Washington Brooklyn law and California Western Cal and San Diego so you know it just opened up a lot of doors for me and I really appreciate it all thanks to Fairfield really got me in the right direction. Thank you very much and Ellen. Hi everybody. My name is Ellen Morgan, and I'm class of 1989. My experience was a little bit different these my sister council lived on campus. I was a commuter student. So, I lived at home. I lived at Fairfield because my father worked at Fairfield. This was back in the time when that was one of the perks of working at a university was that your kid could go to the university. So I was in class with a lot of other professors kids, which was always a lot of fun when they were in the same class with their parent. It was a little bit different now, but it was a little bit different because I didn't live on campus I worked while I went to school. So, I would go to I would go to campus, I'd go to class, and then I turn around and leave. So I didn't do a lot of the extracurricular activities, just because I had to go to work that day. I have to say I did enjoy I spent a lot of time in this list, because that's where the psychology department was located so we were down campus a little bit. And so a lot of the, you know, other places on campus where everybody would hang out was just not there. I mean, all the science students we were all down in that science building so. But it was, it was a lot of fun we we had a lot of good times and I did enjoy my time there. I forgot was the second part of the question. Just if there were any, whether peers or staff or faculty that you found to be mentors in your time on Fairfield. It was my religion professor who got me into thinking about going to law school encouraged me to apply told me where to apply. And I cannot remember this man's name to save my life. It began with an R. He's long since past restless so but he was one of the most open genuine people I met on campus. And he's, he, I guess he saw something and he said you know what you ought to go to law school. And here's where you should go and when I got to too late, because that's where I went. There were a lot of kids from Fairfield University down there so I thought he was getting a little back or something. I kept running into people. Great wonderful so it sounds I mean everyone of course had a wonderful experience it sounds like you know campus wasn't is now still chuck full of wonderful mentors myself excluded of course. But what I want to do now is just really quickly turn things back and we were talking before we started a little bit. And I do know that I'm looking right now at a copy of the mirror week of March 31 so literally came out today. And for those of you who can read it. It mentions of course that this is the 50 years of women at Fairfield. I was wondering it will start with with Ellen and with Kelly and then move on to Nicole. Just some thoughts right regardless of the question I put to you earlier right I want you to answer it the way you like just what are your thoughts on having been either part of the earlier wave of women on campus. What it was like the way I would phrase it was sort of you know paving the way for other women at campus and then Nicole. What was it like to sort of be the inheritor of that and then pass it along to future women stags who have come after you so we'll start with Ellen and then to Kelly, and then to Nicole. I'm going to guess that my class was probably 5050. I mean there were a lot of women that were already there. And I did when I was there I did not realize that we were new. None of the professors thought it was unusual to have large classes of women. They thought it was unusual to see a large body of women in their classes. So I guess the, the earlier classes, the earlier women they really did a great job because I don't recall experiencing a lot of gender differences. I do recall they're not being enough lady before. Kelly. Well, I think it says a lot about fear field because I too felt like very welcomed. Even though, like I said I'm close to the 50 mark of anniversary. I do feel like that that I feel like they just were not judgmental or non accepting. In fact, it was a swim team at Fairfield and it was a coed team. And so it was pretty funny because we swam against all the small schools Vassar and we different places and if a woman came in ahead of the man we got more points. It was a coed team. So it was really fun. And the same thing on the sailing team I was on we women and men were both on the sailing team. So I really thought that in 77 when I went to Fairfield 1977 that it was just a given that we were going to be treated the same. So it was a great feeling of welcoming so. Also welcoming campus. Yes, very Jesuit. Yes. Yes, Nicole. Yeah, I have to say I, I'm very lucky that I never really had to even think twice about the fact that there was women on campus right. And so I give props to those who came before me, even if they didn't notice it either and that's obviously a great thing so. Yeah, I can't say that there is anything that stood out to me and that's a good thing. Okay, wonderful. Well, Kelly mentioned Jesuit values and I do think that that's an interesting place for us to move next. I will also I remind all of the folks in the room as well but especially my students, whose names I recognize today that you were of course encouraged to submit questions for us to ask, because I love hearing myself talk, but I guarantee the panelists would rather hear you hear your questions here your voices so I'll bump on to this next one but cross my fingers hope that we can move on to some student and some audience questions soon. But back to Jesuit values. And these teach us to be women and men for others. And I'm curious how Fairfield prepared you for your legal career specifically, and sort of working with and serving others, you know did, you know the Fairfield values the Jesuit values did they find their way into how you came to law which area of law you chose to practice, and so forth, and I don't think we started with Kelly yet so start with Kelly. And it had a huge impact on personally for me. I, the Jesuit values, I started off as a tax lawyer and employment lawyer. And I, you know, started off with them. And I always said I did want to do anything but family law, you know, I really like doing tax work and. I started doing start off early in my career doing pro bono work for victims of family violence. And I, I volunteer doing that and volunteer working with elderly. In addition to my tax practice of practice and then there will be people that clients would say oh she does pro bono work she can help you on your divorce and so then he would come down the hall. I worked with the oldest law firm in Dallas, and so I would get all these corporate clients coming down to talk to me about their divorce because I was doing so much pro bono work. And then I just really enjoyed the feeling of helping others in this way. And then it, then nicely it evolved to making money and then I, you know, started my own firm with two other women and, and, and it was all due to the pro bono work that I had done, and that was, you know, that was a great feeling of helping victims of family violence and just turned. You know, a change life changing for me personally. Wonderful. And Nicole and then Ellen. Sure. So, I was a resident of Loyola Hall, my sophomore year, and Loyola has like a resident program I guess you could call it where really you're living the Jesuit ideals and that was really my first experience with that I didn't. I went to public school previously so I wasn't really part of a Catholic education before. So I, I was really interested in that, you know, the ideals of who am I who's am I and whom I called to be and that was the first time we, that was introduced to me. You know, I got to attend a retreat at that time, learn about other people's stories and struggles and really recognizing how blessed I was in a lot of respects and, and that self reflection and learning to reflect on myself really set me up for success later in life I found. You know, especially going to law school practicing law and counseling clients as someone who doesn't really litigate and go to go to court often, my main practice is sitting down and listening to my client struggles, and what they're going through and really gearing myself towards, you know, counseling them in a way that works for them and makes them feel heard and, and, you know, being a calm and stable presence in their lives so you know generally speaking my time at Fairfield and the Jesuit values really just continue to push me out of my comfort zone and grow as a person I really think that did set me up for success. Wonderful. Well, like Nicole, the Fairfield was my first experience with Jesuit values. I am not Catholic. So, this was the first Catholic school that I ever gone to. And I found it interesting. It was very similar in my own faith tradition and, ironically, I went from a Catholic school to a Jewish law school is too lame. Founded as a Jewish law as Jewish school. But I would say that with all of that, it all flowed through the reinforcement of my own faith tradition, which led me into going to work for legal aid. I went to work for town government now in private practice. I represent a lot of children. I represent a lot of people who are mentally ill. So it all kind of flowed help that flow of service and what I'm doing right now. Great, thank you all three just different and wonderful applications of Jesuit values and service to others. We do have one question from the audience, which is about it's the intersection, I suppose, of women and law school, which is how are women perceived and treated in law school. And who do we start with last, I believe. Okay. So I think probably to Nicole and then to Ellen and then to Kelly. So I kind of speak about this as it also relates to practicing laws of women, because I think they, it kind of goes hand in hand. You know, as the youngest panelist, I, I would have to say that I, I hope that as the years have gone on if the other panelists have experienced gender bias or anything like that. It's gotten even better as, as we've aged, but a lot of, you know, our colleagues are still a lot older so they may not feel the same as someone like a millennial as myself would right so I do still experience some, some comments, even if they're not malicious that, you know, it just, it makes me think, wow, you know, there, there are still some thoughts that women are. I don't want to say the lesser because I don't think anyone really thinks that anymore. I hope not, but it does make me question right and in law school I would say professors are so forward thinking that that that's not as big of an issue. But in, in the legal profession you come across a lot of other people so I don't know if people have heard of the term mansplaining but it happens often to me. And that's really just, you know, typically an older gentleman speaking to me and saying, you know, explaining to me something that I know very well because I practice it every day. I, I definitely look to the older generation for guidance, I don't know everything I absolutely never think that I do, but the fact that that I need to remind them. That's great, but I knew that already thanks for explaining it to me or making a comment on how young I look, which I think really goes hand in hand with being a woman you know, male, my male colleagues at the same age. They don't get comments like that no one will comment on how they look, their age, my height, anything like that. You know, I've gotten many many comments. Are you old enough to be a lawyer. It really says that to man to man I found at least all the men I practice with. So it's something that still comes up, even if it's not malicious so something just to think about I want to say these things because if there's men in the audience, something for you to think about to write little comments like that maybe fun and nice but women experience that type of somewhat bias all the time so always something to think about. You know, and also, I had to explain recently to my newest male partners like, I can't just go into a meeting and smooth talk my way through it, I get actually questioned like, do I know what I'm talking about. And I have to prove that to people often I don't know if my, my panelists have experienced the same thing but I can't just get away with being a slick talker and going I got to actually know know what I'm talking about to impress people and I think that has to do with being a woman sometimes. Thank you, Ellen. I've had less of the gender but I do remember back when I first started. There were judges who frowned upon female war, female attorneys wearing pants into court. In law school, it was probably 30 70% male to female professors. They had more issues than the students did because the class was so was big enough that our women percentage was a much higher percentage than the actual female percentage of the faculty so I think they got over that they were just on other things, as opposed to gender. But in actual practice. Yeah, you women are not still not allowed to smooth talk your way through stuff. There are still some judges who will treat women differently. And I find actually more of that from female judges than from male judges, which is always a phenomenon that kind of like you remember being a lawyer what are you, what are you talking about. But, you know, I kind of put that down to robot is for you know, it's council already knows you've seen that a million times. So I will have to say yeah, you women attorneys still have to walk in knowing what they're doing. But after you've been around for a while, that level of respect. Boom, it's already there. Okay, great. Thank you. Kelly. I, you know, agree with both my panelists, in terms of their, you know, what he has evolved. I think professors in general, like you, Dr. Weinstein they're not, they don't come with that bias. So I didn't experience that in law school but I will say that there are a lot of great women before me that I appreciate, you know, paving the path for even though I've been practicing since 81. I mean, since 1984 1984 is that is that it was a lot of rejection, a lot of rejection finding employment. I would say, if it wasn't for the value of perseverance I learned at Fairfield, you know, despite having good grades and working hard, it was very hard to find a job. And so, and so that was a challenging part to back in the 80s. But, but I will say that I was going to a jury trial. My first child, 2027 years ago, 28 years ago, and the judge wouldn't let me go to trial because I was pregnant. And he thought it would be biased against the jury if I was representing a male and I was pregnant. It's hard to imagine that that happened but he, the other side filed a motion for continuance to prevent me from having to help because I was pregnant and the court granted it. So it's, it's kind of weird, you know, it's kind of odd to think that's true but I think there's some indirect discrimination that we'd like Nicole and Ellen pointed out that you see without really being said, you know, having to prove yourself and do more work harder. I think starting off with a female firm really helped us because we got rid of all that nonsense. All that, you know, the stereotypical stuff. That's not to say I haven't had to be really assertive with males that are, you know, they're put them in their place so we don't know a way to kind of really do it and prove themselves like you ladies both said so. You know, the legal pants policy here in Texas, they of course prefer women to wear dresses, you know, skirts, and is in some courts, but I think what's really helping evolve the practice of women is judges. You know, seeing the new judges being appointed in the federal courts and the state courts and local courts have really helped promote our practice because you know, just more well rounded. But I do think sometimes, I think that sometimes the generation of women like Ellen saw, you know, sometimes you see women being hard on women too. And I have experienced that. I think it seemed like that was women that were five years ahead of me I experienced but then I think that was just part of educating them that hey, I'm just like, you know, I'm just working hard like you and kind of having to prove yourself to them and once that happens that it goes away but it is, you know, I think like both the other panel said kind of proving yourself repeatedly is the way you have the greatest success showing them you know what you're doing and working hard, but perseverance has played a big part of the trying to try to be employed, you know, and a lot of rejection but you know, keeping not giving up so. Yes, and we're hoping of course in the next 50 years of certainly women at Fairfield just women in the practice of law that this sort of thing doesn't doesn't doesn't keep happening right that that the idea of having to prove yourself. Just is becomes a dinosaur like so many other dinosaurs. And I will say the interesting thing is is we have, we've had many pregnant partners in our law firm that are women is dealing with maternity leave and time off. Because used to be that women used to have to, you know, not talk about those things but being really transparent you can't always have everything at the same time you can't be super lawyer and you know, you know you just need to balance what works for you at any time but kind of talking more and understanding that people need to take blocks of time for leave if they need to care for their family or an elderly parent and be able to come back to the practice with the same level of compensation. And, and level of the firm without losing so called track a partnership track you know making it coming back from the practice, not a step backwards but a step forward because it makes you will better well rounded person to help your clients knowing that you've had other life experiences. That still hasn't that still has not been resolved though I think in general women practicing taking leave for. Yeah, hasn't been resolved. I haven't quite gotten there yet and it's probably my biggest concern as a female attorney is what's going to happen right so it's positive seeing other attorneys do it so let's hope. Yeah. You'll pay the way. So actually in the great days we now have lots of questions from the chat so I'm going to try to sort of summarize a few of them and try to lump them together. So there certainly are a couple that deal with law school so advice for people who are considering law school after graduation about your journey decision to go to law school. And then sort of what classes best from Fairfield best prepared you for law school. And we'll start with Ellen first. You know what I'm going to say my English classes. They taught me how to read critically. They taught me how to write well. And those are two of the biggest skills every lawyer needs. It doesn't matter what area of law you are in. If you cannot write a persuasive sentence. You could be as brilliant as the sun, you will lose. So I'm going to say my English classes really did help. So for all your English professors out there. Good job. Great. And then either to Nicole or to Kelly. Political science with me. I was great at English would be right a second a close second. But that was really helpful and I guess you have another part of your question. I mean, what else. Right. Yeah, the other question was sort of your advice for people considering law school can talk about your own decision, you know why you chose to go and about more of your journey. Go ahead now and you can, I didn't want to cut you off. Oh, no, no, no, no, that's good. You reminded me because I completely forgot that part of the question. It was recommended that I go. You know, I'm a senior. They're like, you should go to law school. Okay. I really did kind of fall into it. I never planned to be a lawyer. Like a lot of lawyers that I know we all wanted to be doctors but you know the chemistry and the. And the math kind of killed us. So we all went to law school and it just kind of flowed and then once I started on the process it was, it was a real natural calling and I was like, oh yeah, this is this is what I should be doing. Okay, Kelly. Mine was by was air I didn't get a job that I wanted in a when I was looking for jobs I got a lot of rejection so I thought what am I going to do and I didn't have any other family members but also at the time, Father Kelly just become our president at Fairfield, and he was kind of off to write me a recommendation. And so in the, and the professors helped down a rumor and in the political science department really encouraged me to like to do to do something to try to apply to law school. So I was, I just really worked out good because I didn't have any lawyers in my family, but I do think also what helped is with the with even in the practice and trying to go to law school is to is get the experience in a law firm. All my sons have worked at the law firm in the summertime if they didn't have a job they were working here. So, which was great, because they're going to be joining us soon here. As is getting experience, even if you have to work for the below minimum wage or free is to tell the law firm hey I'll work for you for a couple weeks if you think I'm valuable pay me. And, and then really work hard be the first person at the office and the last person to leave. And, but you know work work for nothing to get your foot in the door to get that first experience. And I think that really helped give me a better insight the practice of law I had a professor that helped me get that first internship, you know for nothing, but I really open my eyes to the law, a little bit broader spectrum and gave me some better direction. Wonderful, Nicole. Yeah, so to be honest, I would say that one of my, the most out there classes that I think would be helpful is art history. And the reason I say that is because you're analyzing something out of the norm, right you're looking at art, you're looking at also art relating to history, and the teacher goes. Tell me what you what you see, and it's, it's so out there that it really does. It's more than politics is more than English and and it kind of put you out of your comfort zone which is a lot of what law school is you're out of your comfort zone learning totally new concepts and, and taking classes that are really difficult. So why not, you know stretch your ring wings while you're in undergrad. And I also think, you know, part of my favorite part about Fairfield was that I could do multiple things and not just politics I was an art minor, and I was an Italian studies minor. And I really enjoyed those two aspects of my education because it allowed me to do something that I wouldn't be doing in the future right I call my art minor it seemed like a waste of time but it kept me saying right it let me do something creative. And maybe happy. And I think that's a lot of something that people aren't thinking about they're like, I need to get to law school. What are the politics and these classes I need to take to get there. That's an interesting mindset to have like this is your time to enjoy yourself as well and learn new things. And even if it's creating a hobby. And I think that might sound weird and counterintuitive, but it also diversifies your resume. Let's put it that way you know it's something to talk about when you're in an interview it's something to say when you're on your writing your application. So think about things like that as well. I went to law school with a doctor, a veteran, I went to law school with these people who are so distinguished and multifaceted and I was just coming in straight from Fairfield. Like hey, I'm a politics major like everybody else right what what are you going to do to diversify yourself so that's something I want to point out. And then like, if you want to be a lawyer, follow your dream don't let anyone tell you that, you know, it sucks being a lawyer everyone's going to say that everyone says it about every job. Let's be honest no one likes working. So if someone says that you don't get discouraged I know a lot of people that have gotten discouraged people said that to me. I still did it and I'm happy that I did it so if you want to go, you know go for it and that's that's what I have to say. It's wonderful and inspiring and actually gives me a very quick lightning round just sort of fun question, and then we'll get back to Jared's question from the chat about how you picked a law school how you narrow things down but I'm actually curious so Nicole it sounds like and you can correct me I'm wrong. The class that you had that maybe led to a hobby or like the the the passion class that you took. You know seems like it was art history is that would that be correct. Yeah, I think art history was a really nice combination of all of my joys art history and Italian studies. So I got it all in one. So yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, was there a favorite like particular class you remember. I don't recall the name of the class it was like an intro to art history and I took it up in Bellarmine Hall like in the, in the, in art, we were sitting around art so it was really inspiring. I really loved it. Wonderful. And then either Ellen or Kelly do you have a sort of a hobby or like passion class he took it still stands out to you. I'm going to say my favorite class the one that I still reflect, I actually still use the information non traditional religions in America, because it did just broaden my horizons to what was really out there. And learning something new something different. I still encounter I can still tell you, you know, stuff from that class I've actually used in court. You know it's like, well your honor. You know you don't have to think of it this way you can think of it this way just like so and so blah blah blah blah. And the judge would be just thrown off and go. Okay. I don't have a sense. I'm going with it, because I, yeah, but it was one of those classes that really just broaden your horizons. Russian history was interesting. That kind of gave me a little insight into how people think, which is, given what I do, kind of important. So yeah I'm going to say those two were my passion ones. I hope I can still keep friends with my panelists because I'm really enjoying get to know everyone on it. I was gonna, I'm gonna say Ellen we've got a lot in common because my religion class was what my mind to at the time I was at Fairfield it was taught by an ex priest. He taught atheism. So I, I too, like Ellen have have used that in my trials, the things I've learned from diversified different types of religion. And so it's interesting that that and I was like, shocked that here in the 70s I was having an ex priest teach, you know, atheism agnostic religions and viewpoints. And I really was been pressed that, you know, again back in the 70s that Jesuit school was having a class about that. So it really stuck out in my mind, and it just goes to show that whole philosophy of not judgmental opened perceptive to other viewpoints was really was really in place back in the 70s. So I, but religion the same class. It was really fascinating to me. That's wonderful and the student I mean actually everybody here whether you're a student or you're an alum or you're a parent. Everyone has maybe that class and so it's kind of nice to reflect back on those classes that sort of changed who we are or give us these extra skill sets we didn't think we had or needed. So they want to jump on to something that one of our students has asked which is essentially boils down to when you're picking a law school right there are a lot of things go into your head right geography cost stuff like that but that's that he's particularly interested in defending religious liberty. So he has a clear passion right so picking a school based on program or location or like what, what helped you what led you to sort of picking the schools that you picked. And we'll start with Kelly this time. Well, well I thought I was going to go to Georgetown Law School, and my, my parents are going through a divorce at the time and so I put my whole family had gone to Georgetown. And so I thought Kelly was going to write the recommend or the recommendation I only applied to Georgetown thinking I was going to go and it's only going to go there great grades I did everything right, you know, and, and then I got wait listed. And so I had to quickly apply somewhere else that that would accept people at the last minute, and it was in Texas at never even been the state of Texas. And so I applied there last minute and it wasn't a prestigious school that I went to was St. Mary's in San Antonio. But it really was again for me, it was live changing made me force me to be humble and really appreciate the fact that I did get into school it wasn't my choice of schools I got into. And I had the path of which way I wanted to go and I was going to go to Georgetown I was going to live in DC and I've worked for Ronald Reagan. This is where I was going to go, you know I was this is also being DC in politics and and so it was really devastating the rejection. I did find out, you know, 20 30 years later that I got off the wait list but my parents had already moved me here and they didn't tell me that I'd gotten in, and I could have gone but I didn't have the resources to to go, they didn't have the money to have me again. But it made me very humble in terms of having to really have to be at the bottom of the tier of schools that wasn't a prestigious law school to have to work a little harder to, you know, to to get the job to persevere in the practice so it was. So, I do think that my people get all caught up in the right school or the right location it's really what you do with it. And working like I worked myself through school because I had to take out student loans and I, you know, so I had really helped me the experience of that helped me, I didn't graduate at the top of my class. I laughed because my husband is an attorney and he was at the top of his class so I was at the bottom of my class, but it really is it's really what you do with it when you get out and, you know, if you can't afford a school you know don't get settled with a bunch of debt thinking I've got to go to school because it's so prestigious. So, you know, I got off my student loans at my school, you know it's really better, more to start working right away for, in my experience was working getting the experience was what I had to fall back on, because I didn't have the other so don't get discouraged, if you don't get the what you think you really want to go so I'd say. We could go back and I could list those awards again if you want. All those things you earned. It speaks to the caliber of the people that we have here. So, let's I, I'm terrible with remembering who went last. So either Ellen or Nicole. Do you have any advice for people of how you picked your schools. My professor tell me which schools to apply I think back when I took the LSATs they would take your grades and they would form them out to schools. These schools would accept you with these grades and LSAT score. So I think that's where some of my applications went. I picked law schools based on geography. Oh, I only applied to law schools that had an NFL team in the city. Big NFL fan. So that was literally how I picked the school. Because you know, somebody said they want to work for this they want to work for that. You know everybody takes the first year law school is the same for every law student in the United States. It's the same stuff. And the second year, you get to diversify and pick what you like. And then that third year, you're making up all the classes because you know, they're going to be on the bar exam and you didn't take the class. So true. So true. So it really doesn't matter what school you go to. You know there's the old joke is like what do they call the guy graduated last from his medical school they call him doctor. It is the same thing. It only matters what you do with what everybody else in the same boat has been given. Great. Nicole. I'll definitely chime in on that I, I was looking for a law school where I could possibly live at my parents house save a little bit of money. I didn't get into the New Jersey schools I wanted to so I got into a few other schools and actually got some some money to go to some schools and chose a school I did not get as much money for so that's probably my biggest regret, although I loved Quinnipiac. It has a great, and I know, you know, Fairfield students are in Connecticut so you may be looking at Quinnipiac just because of your location which is why I'll comment on it. It has a great atmosphere at Quinnipiac. It really is less aggressive and competitive as a lot of other schools might be. It's a great middle middle range school. So I recommend it fully. I think my biggest issue is student loan debt so if I was going to give you any sort of like how to pick a law school tip it's do really great on your LSATs go to a school that will work and give you money. That's reasonable because it's a huge burden on my life and if you can avoid that I'd love it. So finding someplace and maybe not that you have to travel far distances to go see family or, you know, move far distances I know that my panelists have done that. So, you know, anyway you can save a little bit of money. Like they said I was an honor roll student at Fairfield. You go to law school and you're with all the other honor honor roll students if not better and you're just one of many now and I was not the top of my class. They got these prestigious jobs that they thought they wanted and they hate them most of them. I went small firm, worked my way up, worked for free just like some of my panelists did. And I am just as successful as they are right you don't need to be the top of your class you don't need to be at the most prestigious school. If you're doing what makes you happy and you're going to be successful and that's so don't worry too much about where you go. It's where where you wind up. Wonderful. And how are we on time we got some time. Okay. So one of our students is asking the most challenging experience you had in law school. Right so whatever that could have been maybe what was it and then how did you overcome it what advice would you give to a student overcoming maybe their first their first challenge once they get to law school. I'd like to start on that if that's the right. Yeah please. Just jumping right in. I, it was honestly, after my first year my one year. It's when we were all looking for our first job right trying to get that law firm experience. I actually had gotten a job and I was working and I was working for free but it transitioned into paying, which was great. But I was trying to diversify and get another job during the school year so I could learn at a different firm. I went there, I interviewed and I was torn apart. I cried the whole way home, and I almost quit law school at that point I was like how am I going to do this I I'm I'm never going to get a real job. I'm never going to be an attorney I can't even get through this interview. And that was a real eye opener for me because first year that's the year they weed out the students right they want to see who's really there. It's the hardest year. So I was like discouraged over discouraged over discouraged and then I, I really just put on my big girl pants and was like this is it I got to stay and like really make the best of this. So I'd say don't get discouraged when someone one person tells you you can't do it because that's it's just not true. It's not you can do it. Great. Kelly, do you have any advice for the first real hurdle that you hit. I know I think time management is important but I kind of going back to Ellen to location or where you go to school is it can be enjoyable if you there's other things you like in the city or close to family or something like that. Having never been to Texas I was having a great time in the state because a wonderful state. But you're just just managing your time and again like Nicole said not being discouraged if you do poorly because it's not indicative how you're going to do. They say the people that graduate the top of the class they all become they all get the jobs on New York City or you know big big big laws they call it now and and then they later become judges, which I think is what I've seen repeatedly in my, you know, 20 plus years of practice five years practice. The B students become the transactional lawyers, the C students, which I would be in myself as a student we become famillars I think we're the happiest so you know. So it's interesting how your life evolved so it all works out and don't give up is what I'd say. Okay, Ellen. We had a similar saying at Tulane, the eight students became law professors. The B students became judges and the C students made the money. My biggest hurdle had nothing to do with gender. My biggest hurdle in law school was a culmination of events that took place at the same time. The brand new Dean. It was the largest class of black students, the school had ever had was 44 out of a class of 300. The prior year they had four. Because we had a new Dean, they admitted more black students. So there was a lot of racial unrest, my very first year of law school. The school had never had that many black students. And the other students were not happy at having all those black students. So that was my biggest hurdle was making it through that first year. So they can get to year number two. I'm so sorry to hear that. But it was, it was an unusual year. But it was also an unusual class because we also had the largest class of non traditional students people who didn't come straight out of college. I would say about 40% of the people in my first year class had had previous occupations prior to going to law school. I went to school with a lot of retired people. I went to school with veterans like some of the other panelists have had people who were on their second or third degree a couple of doctors I went to school with. So it was an unusual class and a lot of different ways and that unusualness was the thing I had to get over. Now, the good thing about it was, I didn't know any better. I didn't have the issue of the race and the, you know, people walking around marching with signs and stuff. The composition of the class and how things work. Since it was the first time I'd ever gone to law school, I thought it was always like this. So I didn't think of it as a hurdle. It was only after I left that I was like, Wow, that was a lot to get over. That was a lot to get over. We have one essentially one minute left. So I hope I can beg people's indulgences to sort of do one quick lightning round of maybe 30 second answers of if you would if you could leave the audience with one piece of advice or one sort of thought about how Fairfields sort of the gift that Fairfield gave you that you can then give forward sort of in your law practice. What would it be. And again, you didn't prepare this question so there's no pressure for grand eloquent speeches, but just sort of initial thoughts and I promise we can pick this up at our next event. So whoever would like to go first, I would, I'll go first. Okay, so I would say Fairfield taught me to be well grounded and well educated. That was my biggest gift. Having a lot of different experiences with different types of people, different economic classes. And the Jesuit education of a well rounded individual that really was a gift. And that I will always cherish. I was going to say the same thing just being really prepared, you know, well rounded, you are forced to take a lot of different classes. And at the time I was like, what am I taking philosophy for what am I taking religion for I'm going to law school. If there's a reason for it, it makes sense and we're all, you know, talking about why it makes sense today so I agree. I agree the same thing. And also think that one thing I think resonated with fearful to is, is kindness there's a lot of kindness immediately on the campus and I think that's spread throughout with the teachers and the camaraderie of the students, a lot of that was important. Great. Thank you very much. Well, thank you. I will turn things back on over to Jessica, who I believe is still here. Thank you all so much. Thank you to our panelists. Thank you, Dr. Weinstein. Thank you to everyone who gave their time this evening to be here. The hour honestly flew by I loved hearing all of your stories. And I hope that all of our students on the call were able to take a lot from it that they can apply as they go into their own law school journeys. And I hope all who celebrate Easter have a wonderful Easter, a wonderful Passover, the remaining days of Passover for all who celebrate Passover. And thank you all for being here and we will see you again soon. Thank you for having us. Thank you everyone.