 How I see it is, I view it from like René Girard's memetic theory. Monkey see, monkey do. There's a tipping point, boiling point, escape goes. Some shit hits a fan, shit blows up. Okay, cool. We've cleansed ourselves of our sins and now we're starting over. Now, it can be another world war. Now, as we know it, it can be economic war. It can be a viral breakout. It can be so many different things. And if you look though at the lineage, even though we're currently, you're saying we're in a bad position, yes. But if I elongate history right now and I look at how my grandmother lived and I lived, I'm fucking lucky I live now. Oh yeah, I mean. My grandmother lived like, you know, back in the day the average lifespan was 45 or 47. I don't want to live till 47. You know, the average lifespan right now is 87, right? Yeah, it depends though. It's like, I'd rather live until 47 with a purpose in life and live until 90 sitting on a couch and playing video games. That's to say if they had a purpose. I have no idea, right? But I grew it. You shouldn't just be sitting down. But eventually what I'm saying is this, you got technology, you got crazy people running countries. We're still running as like apes pre-programmed and conflict happened. Shit hits the fan. We learn from it. We get a little bit better. So we got to elongate the time span a lot because we only been here for kind of like a spec when the whole grand scheme of things. So we got to look like a couple of thousand years and we're like hopefully that time is like, things are good. To be told, I mean, I understand that position. It's like the Steven Pinker position. I'm not a big fan of that. Not a big fan because I don't think that, I think that there are certain things that have trade-offs. That there are trade-offs that you just can't, that you can't help. So you can't have, you can at the same time have a technocratic society and have a wisdom society. You just can't like, at least not if you put all your energy on the technocratic side. Like if you do that, then you're going to have to, you have a limited amount of energy. Some things are in a balance and you can't have both. And there's a reason why, why religious traditions have aesthetic practices. Like the fact of actually peeling back these garments, peeling back these exteriors is actually a way to center yourself, to enter into something which is aligned and which will help you see purpose and to see the bigger picture. But then that's actually, you get stories in the Bible of like whole city's morning, like everybody's morning in the city and everybody is fasting and all this stuff. Like maybe that's, we would need something like that. That's not going to happen. Like it's not going to happen. Well, people are trying to come up with their own thing. What do they call it? Was it like all these from sober, November, whatever, sober October, whatever, like they inevitably will come back to it because it's like a natural thing to want to do that. But lacking, they only want to do it for health purpose. They don't have this idea that you're going to find some kind of, some kind of insight into your life by stripping back some of this excess. Well, this is once again, what I said, where like if people are the problem with modern religion and I wouldn't even relate to the Vatican, I relate it to like, let's say their local church or mosque, whatever, whatever temple you go to, the fuck, what can I call them? Well, in Islam, it's a mom and then it's a father. I don't know, you could call it the whole priest. Yeah, let's call them priests. Yeah, okay. So you got the priest inside this temple and the priest is usually kind of like the person guiding you, right? Okay. They need to update. Like if they had better communication and better updating for like modern times, people will listen to them and it's like, maybe it's my marketing mind thinking over here. Like if they use apps and they, well, not even apps, like better communication, man. It's like none of this like, you can take old ideologies and beliefs and update it to the new time and create better. Cause at the end of the day, what you want, you want a better, you want a healthier, better and happier family unit, more better and happier family units create the better society. A better society becomes a richer society. Like it works up from the grassroots. But what we need is not better communication. What we need are saints, but we need our holy people. Like you said before, we need our people who take it seriously, people who act in good faith, people who are trying to look at themselves, transform themselves first, remove their own, remove the splinter from their eye, all of that, all of the things that Christ sold us to do. That's the key, that's the solution. That's my favorite quote in the Bible, Matthew seven. But that's what we need to do. And so that's the only, that's the real solution is that and the only way to go about it is that you have to do it. Like I have to do it, not you. Like I have to do that. Like I have to be that. And if I'm that, then, then, you know, Christ talks about that, you know, if you become a tree, then the birds sit in your, come to sit in your branches. Like if you, if you're transformed as a person, you know, this great quote by Saint Seraphim of Sarov who says, acquire the spirit of peace and a thousand around you will be saved. It's like if you, if you yourself get transformed, then the world will be transformed. I think this message is generally in most practice, like you look at the Sufi like Rumi as a thing. Yesterday I was clever, I want to change the world today and why is it when I change myself? Oh, you're right. So I think the message, you just got to get the message to people where it's like, yeah, your temple may help you, but the truth isn't out there, the truth's in you. You got to work on yourself. You got to take responsibility for yourself. But part of that is submitting to something higher than you, part of it is, because one of the biggest obstacle to, to transforming yourself is pride. Like that's the biggest obstacle is to think that I got it, I got this, I'm in charge, I'm doing this, all of that. And one of the reasons why we have churches, one of the reasons why we have spiritual hierarchies is so that you have someone above you who can tell you, dude, you don't, you're off. Like you, this isn't right. You're not, you're not doing it right. And just that, even just accepting to submit yourself to something higher is already part of the transformation. That's why we have that, because we dilute ourselves. If you meet people all the time, you meet some person who's spiritual and is going doing yoga classes and meditation and everything and their life is in complete shambles. Like their relationships are horrible. They've just gotten to divorce. They're fighting for their kids. It's like, my goodness, dude, like that's spiritual stuff. Like it's not helping you, my friend. It's no good. Not for him, but then some other people that does help. I think it's all case dependent, right? Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, maybe. Even for myself, like what do I define myself as? I don't believe in capital. So what did you, what did you grow up as? You said, you said you're from a good family. Nothing really, these communists was fucking atheism. Right, yeah, atheism. Like you can't practice by law. You couldn't practice. In a nutshell, my family background is a mixture of like Islam and Orthodox Christianity from the Balkans. Well, for the most part, it's not. Which is atheistic, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like you're atheist by label. You don't, it's just like, one, by law, you couldn't practice. Like China, right? And two, it's just like, it's more cultural than anything. It's like cultural beliefs as opposed to like, let's say like religious beliefs. Yeah, yeah. But like for me, it's like, I'm not, like, I get what you're saying, but like, I'm not guided by the Holy Spirit or something like that. I'm guided by like, how do I become a better me? A better husband, a better partner, a better business person? How do I help people around me? How do I create a better community? Yeah. Like stuff like that. I think there's ways of hybridizing that as opposed to like, I need to have somebody telling me what to do. Well, it's good to have a mix of both. Because we dilute ourselves. Well, people, I mean, you can always pay for a shrink for the shrink to do that for you. Like people do that. I pop five grams of mushrooms and I sit down and it's gone. Oh man, I mean, yeah, it's like, I understand that's the world we're in. Like what you're saying is the world we're in. And also to a certain extent, you know, the fact that the church has been corrupt and the fact that we've seen all these horrible stories come out in the past years, you know, it's a sad state. Like it's a sad situation. But there's something about, I mean, there's something about talking to someone else, especially someone that does have some kind of power over you. Well, I think what you're referring to is role models, man, like Kay's example, which is a lot of missing a lot within boys and men. Like you have absentee fathers. Like for me, my dad was like, was an absentee, but he was like a piece of furniture there, but not there, if you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, how's my mom going to show me? That was a fucking nutcase of a child. My mom's not going to control me, bless her soul. But like if you have, if you have like proper role model, not someone telling you, well, Jonathan, this is what you must do. And if you don't listen to me, you're going to go, none of that bullshit, but more or less being a friend, showing them, and above all, not having a hypocrisy, a hypocrisy. Yeah, interesting. People say one thing, but the actions speak another thing, like live by example. Yeah, no, I agree. And that's why, you know, and it's like I said, what we need to a certain extent are saints, even if it's like a little S saints, like a little S saints, but when you do get like a capital S saint, you know, you have, you have transformations, like when there is someone who is authentic and real and living it out and not being hypocrite, you know, you can. Is there example of somebody in recent times that you would kind of put in that category? Yeah, they're definitely, they're definitely, I mean, because I'm in the Orthodox Church, there are several elders in Mount Athos who command great respect and who have people who go and get their wisdom and then is able to spread that wisdom around. There's quite a few of those, you know, we have several saints, even some Serbian saints who were in America and who had some great effect and who kind of gave the tone for the church. And so there are people, but there are very few. That's true. And I think the fact that there are so few is why everything's so messed up, like we just look around and sad, it's kind of sad. So I understand your frustration with big R religion, but at the same time, I don't buy your alternative. I don't have an alternative. I'm just here doing me. I'm not selling anything to anybody. It's like, I'm not selling anything. You know, I just, listen, I go by the golden rule. I'm a simpleton. I'm like, work on yourself, treat others how you want to be treated, you know, do good in the world. And I always say, like, focus on the primal things that makes a human being. Work out, be in physical shape because physical shape will dictate mental shape, work on your mental health, right? And all these things are interconnected, right? When you feel good, you do good. And so it's like, at least like focusing on the, and you can relate the basics. Like these simple things are much easier. Like I'm a firm believer in having a stepping stone and an inception to helping people. Cause let's say you're talking to a 17 year old and I work with a lot of young kids and you start talking about religion, forget about it, right? And this is, I'm not coming from religious perspective, but if you're talking about, hey man, like, I know what you want. I know you want to make money in the future. I know you want to live a good life, but this is how you do it, you know? Like take care of yourself, treat people right, you know? Like, and obviously have guidance too is like, you know, don't just go out with every single girl and just get a girl pregnant being like, like, like very bait, like, I'm not talking about complicated fucking things over here. Like you would think, you know, you would think that people would have this and I didn't have any of this mentorship or guidance when I was young. I had to learn everything myself through mistakes, right? No one sat me down, no one gave me this like, you know, you're a good father and I think your kid is blessed to have you. It's like no one, you know, no one sat me down to have this and I think a lot of this is just very basic stuff. It's like having a good family structure, having a good community to relate to, having somebody to talk to, having some role models to look at like, fuck. So where like, for example, like your community, like where, where does it come from? If I had to say would be the entrepreneurial community. Okay. Yeah. But then like you look at their behaviors, it aligns to like a lot of responsibility. They got to take care of everybody. They have two families. They have their family, which is their business and their platonic family, right? They got to take care of their health. They got to take care of their mentality. They got to take care of their finances. So to be a successful entrepreneur, like it takes a lot of these building blocks already to beat that level. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. But I think we'll wrap it up that. If people want to get to know more about you and everything and all the work you do, what's the best resource for them? Yeah. I mean, it's in terms of my speaking, it's really the YouTube channel. You can look me up, Jonathan Peugeot on YouTube or thesymbolicworld.com. That's my website. Usually all of my videos come out on that as well. And yeah, I also am a artist. I make religious art and people can check out my website, Peugeot Carvings. That's usually the best place to find me. All right, guys, thanks for watching. And also if you're listening to some iTunes, please leave a review and go check out Jonathan's stuff. I will leave a link in the show notes to his carvings. Go check out his carvings. It's pretty cool. I'm gonna buy one. Well, thanks for your, how can I say this? You know, I know we're on two different sides of a question and I really appreciate the generosity with which you engage with me. So thanks a lot. Likewise, all the best. All right, all the best.