 And on that note, let's get our next session started as well. We are talking about lessons from 2017. And joining us, in fact, spearheading this panel discussion where we have with us our session moderator, who in fact is the group CEO, media and OOH with Madison. So we have with us Mr. Vikram Sakuja, who's gonna be spearheading the panel discussion. If I may please invite Mr. Vikram Sakuja on the stage with a huge round of applause, ladies and gentlemen. Let's bring in some energy from the audience. Well, joining him on the stage are a set of panel members. May I please invite the president of Jhagran Group, Apurva Purohit, to please come on stage as well. The president with Sony TV, Rohit Gupta, and industry director with Google India, we have with us Vikas Agnihotri. So if I may invite our panel members as well on the stage. And can we have a huge round of applause for all of our speakers, ladies and gentlemen. We're having some amazing time here. So let's keep the insights going. And with that, I'm gonna request Mr. Sakuja to take it forward from here. Thank you. Okay, great. You know, we are coming out of a year which has been actually quite ordinary for most people and actually not so bad for others. We started the year predicting about a 13.5% growth and we're coming out with seven and something. And if you have to look at traditional poor and digital 27. So some people are smiling. This man on my left has bucked even the digital trend and his part of the business. He's grown way higher than that. For all the TV that we talk about and say that TV is only grown for 5%. We've got Rohit out here who has probably taken the IPL who are new high and straight on the back of extracting all the money from the market on IPL. He then extracted some more on KBC. So, and of course we have a very rare site in these forums which is the Purva who has probably actually she has extracted fantastic value out of, she's actually created a whole market out of radio and she's been instrumental in the heydays of radio growth and now even on the entire print piece she's actually was taking it into a pretty high level and there have been some road, some overall bumps that we've hit and then it's come to print. But right now between the three of them we've got 20% of the ad-ex represented. So, and you don't, you never waste, it's not a recession of course, but you never waste a good recession or a slight hiccup. So, let's try to find out from them what exactly are the learnings that we are getting so that 18 can be hopefully closer to the kind of 12% that we are projecting. I'm going to break up this panel discussion into three broad areas. We'll start with just talking about the market outlook, what happened really and what we expected to be. I'm going to be talking about the marketing mix. So, how is it the dynamics likely to change between TV, print, radio and of course digital. And the third one is I'm going to really talk about yield or how do we take prices of inventory up. All three I think are fundamental to how the weather or not the market is going to grow. So, Rohit, let's start with you. You, we've seen a market where, okay, what do you think was the reason for a subdued 2017? Well, you know, every year there's something other which happens, you know, whether it was demonetization or GST. But, you know, there is, I mean, we've also been through that, while our growth numbers did come down a bit, but we didn't really get it that badly. I think it's the business model which you create in your organization and how to do run the business. Can it sometimes help you move away from these swings? And I think for us, that's been our learning that the way we've created our journey over the last 10, 15 years. So, while the whole industry went through this and, you know, the numbers came down, we were quite substantially safeguarded out of it. So, we've had 2017, I mean, our FY17 is going to be probably one of the best years that we've had in terms of growth. So, why do you think the others suffered? You know, one is the numbers, we don't really look at the industry numbers, you know. So, when you say it's 12% growth, it's 8% growth, we don't look at it, okay. We look at our own business plan. So, we have our own numbers, we have an MRP which we have to achieve and MRP is over three years, and we go by that number. Once that number is sacrosanct with us, and then we work backwards to it. And then you've just got to dive deeper. It's not that people are, it's not that the whole industry is not spending. If the industry is growing at 8% or 10%, there is somebody spending, who's growing at 25% and there's somebody growing at 2% or 1%. You've got to find the guys who are growing at 20% and go deeper with them. I mean, because everybody's not growing at 8% or 10% or whatever the number of the industry might be. So, I think there are different ways to look at it. And, you know, you can go on and on about that. We'll come back to where the growth is coming from and how to tap it. But Apurva, to you now. What has been your sense? Because Radio, I think you saw some pretty decent growth last year, 16, less so in 17, although it started pretty well if I'm not mistaken, but it sort of tapered off. And print overall has had a pretty, you'll also have to take the mandate for English print and speak on their behalf. Why do you think print really sort of suffered quite a lot this year? So I think, let's put it in perspective and I'll break it up into two things. One is that, was this year bad? Yes, it was. On an overall basis, we've seen the muted growth. Why was it bad? I think there are very obvious reasons for that. As people say that the economy was chugging around quite nicely and then someone came and shot a running car. And that's really what happened with Daemon. We thought the impact of Daemon would be lesser, but it wasn't. It sort of stayed till the second part of last year, which is almost in September, October. That's one reason. GST clearly was another reason. Everybody expected GST was to last only for 45 days. They lasted for three, four months. And in many manners, implementation of GST is still a challenge. And when you are every, I think from the time GST launched, till three months later, there were 87 changes or modifications made. So imagine a retailer. He doesn't know. Even now I know people who are struggling and we saw the retail panel earlier. And I know people like, especially in the food retail, suddenly there's input credit, suddenly there's no input credit. And it completely changes their business plan. So advertising comes very, very much later in their analysis. So I think GST was clearly another reason. Specifically for local, and I'm talking about print and radio, RERA was the third thing. RERA itself, real estate is a big category for all of us. And finally, I think government subdued spending. Government for radio, for example, is 17% of our spends. So government went low on spending. So these were really four categories and reasons why advertising was subdued across the board. Now, within that, let's look at different media. Radio, reasonably decent, but I wouldn't celebrate that because the fact is that radio is, the base is so small. And to just grow at the levels of the industry is not good enough. Digital, I handle the digital piece for jargon that grew at 30%. So that's the other side of it. Within, so that's the other side. So there are certain media like digital have grown at 30%. Radio's grown at 89%, but I won't feel too thrilled about that. Then we come to the third bit, and Rohit just did mention that within all these media, we have to look at specific businesses which did extraordinarily well. So, and what are the learnings thereof? That while economically the sentiment is low, the GDP is not growing, are there parts of the businesses which have done well or and why did they do well? And I think that's really what we can discuss. We will definitely take that. That's one clear trend coming out, opportunity areas coming out from both of you. Now, because you have hit the ball out of the parks, because handles probably 60% of Google's business, so is it that you were representing all the high growth categories? Because I don't think, I think you definitely, even by Google standards, you bucked Google's trend, you're part of the business. So, what is it that A made digital, continue to make it the darling, and second, even within digital, what made yours or your categories much more than others? So I think Vikram's being too kind to me. This was a common made over a drink. Google's done well. I won't like to say my patch versus the other patch, but what we've really seen is, I think both panelists really actually did mention about that. There are some, first of all, you've got to set your own kind of, what's your own objective and what you want to do and how do you want to take the business ahead? And fundamentally, you will always find in amongst your clients, there are clients who are very strong on strategy. Clients who are not looking on a quarter by quarter basis, they have a long-term strategy in place. In fact, if you look at their stock prices, they will always be moving up. If you look at their performance, it will always look good. And you've got to start focusing on that. The other is the fact that, are you there in the business to sell ads, or are you there in the business to provide for business solutions or business problems that they have and solve for those business problems? And once you actually take that stand in your own strategy with your own client, you will always find that the client is going to kind of tilt towards you. The other is the fact that I think in Google, what we really look at also, Vikram, is that there is enough and more data that we have and the client has. And we start, we actually work with the client to start moving towards data insights and foresight. As we call it, how do you have data get into insight and then foresight? And foresight is actually going a step beyond. And once you get into a conversation of that kind, you actually find a seat on the table with your particular client. And that's when you start, I think, winning conversations with them. In terms of looking forward overall in a client basis, I still think that there is, and you're right in the sense that there is a world of cautious optimism as far as the industry is concerned, but there will be few who will do well. The others are coming out with all the issues that we've had, but there are economic factors that are looking much better. Commercial vehicle sales are good. Cement is good, which means rural demand should be coming in. It's a consumption-led economy. So there are a bunch of things that are actually working to say that things are looking up and will look up. If you look at Unilever results, it was 28% up over the previous quarter last year, right? It's an early indicator of, you know, can organizations and companies, CPG companies come back? That's really what it is. So if you focus on some of those things, you will win. Great. In this first round of questions, I'm getting the sense that don't look at the aggregate, whether it's 4%, 8%, you have to have a business plan and you've got to look for growth. The second you said is that start talking business rather than just advertising or whatever, branding. And you also said, you just brought in a thing of use of data to take it from data to insight to foresight. These are three aspects that you did which actually help buck the trend or actually do better. Let's take to the common one of them, which is where do you get growth? Clearly, if you go at a mass all India aggregate, it ain't coming. So Rohit, what do you do to find growth? For example, every time we go to an IPL, we always find two, three, four new sponsors that you've never seen before. If I have to see the papers today and they've quoted 11 sponsors that star is likely to sign up, at least three or four of them are probably first time IPLers. So do you have to keep on finding opportunities to use from nowhere? Yeah, any property that size, when you've got to do 4,000 plus growth, it's a tough task. The whole process begins about six months before you've got to plan it, it doesn't happen on its own. We've been in enough meetings together and it's a six, eight month thought out process. You have a strategy behind you and eventually the strategy is about to work. But there's one thing, so obviously for success and when you're looking in a tough environment when everything is tough, you've got to work, one is deeper, which I believe firmly in. So that's when relationship brand solutions come in for us. And what we've seen in the last two years is that by going deeper in some of our clients, we're really taking 80% of the spends on our network. And these are large clients who have options to go anywhere else, all right? And I think that's helped us a long way and that's helped us going. So you've got to look at categories which are winning, categories which are doing well and then how do you go deeper into it? Going deeper is the tough part, okay? Because you've got to have a good ROI and when I mean, it's not at the cost of selling cheap. Actually you're selling more but you're giving him enough solutions for him to get a better ROI in return. It's a lot about relationships because somebody when he's investing 80% of his spends on you, he expects a lot in return. So you've got to, like I said, get deeper to find such a plan. Talk a little bit more about the deeper. Google talked about going deeper by talking data and outcomes. So, okay, I can give you one example of going deeper is like our relationship with the geo, all right? It's one of the most, and we started focusing on it well before they even launched because we knew they are gonna be the, they are gonna break through this category. We started working with them before. Then, and we today, you know, we get a large part of the spends as a network and on KBC, we could, you know, we did an innovation with them, you know, this play along, the geo play along stuff that we did. Now, there was a time when there was a debate between programming and the sales team and them was that if people start playing along the game on the geo app, they'll stop watching TV and it'll affect our ratings, all right? But somewhere we had to take the leap of faith together with geo and say, okay, this is a fantastic innovation because the whole thing about KBC is knowledge and you wanna know whether how well you're doing as your own when you're playing at home, how much have you won personally, which you couldn't do earlier. So now you could actually play life on stream. What happened was 54 million people were playing KBC every day. That meant there was more involvement happening. So you were actually, your time spent went up, the ratings went up, all right? So it was a win-win for all. So initially we thought we'll lose rating but it helped us gain ratings. But that's the kind of stuff which you gotta do. And now you know that that client you haven't forever unless you really screw it up. And this is, sorry to add. This is, I mean, they're making this as a case study and they're putting it to Harvard. So we are trying to find the sources of growth and then going deeper. We've got two examples. Now if we have to look from a print, radio, that entire standpoint, our historical framework has been go category-wise, whether it's real estate, whether it's education, even FMCG, maybe not so much in print. But do you think the classic way of just looking at categories is now changing? E-commerce was a darling one year or two years maybe and then Flatter to Deceive maybe last year in that frame. So how would you look for growth if it's not categories? So I wouldn't discount categories completely because different categories have a different style of selling and a different expectation out of that medium. So you do have to look at categories. Having said that, I think there are three ways that you can get growth in any business. The first way, of course, is the point that was made that it's, I mean, if you go, keep on going to a client and saying, you know, I have a 10 second spot to sell, I have 100 CC to sell, and it becomes a story about your 10 second spot or your 100 CC ad. Beyond the point, when he's under stress, that's not how he's going to buy it. The moment you convert that 10 second spot or that 100 CC to, okay, let me sit and discuss your problem, what are your issues. You also are not getting growth in a muted GDP environment. You are also not getting growth. So let me work with you. Let me try and integrate your creative in my campaign. Let me work on consumers-wise. Digital growing so much today. Because finally, after 40 years of advertising clients today are actually genuinely able to segment and break it up, as you showed in that model. At what is the purchase intention and can I access that guy at that particular intention point? That's the reality why digital is doing so well. Because you're actually able to give some kind of measurement rather than that fuzzy reach and frequency that all of us have been selling for so long. So I think that's the moment it becomes the client story, you see a lot of growth coming at that stage. I think the second bit is, and because it's not exciting, flamboyant, glamorous, people discount it, but I think you get growth if you just do your internal implementation right. So the economy may change by 10%, 5% of it you can neutralize and I have enough facts to show that if you get your internal implementation right, I handled five businesses for Jagran, outdoor activation, digital, English media, Hindi media and radio. And with the different CEOs, I see the different, you know the CEOs who have just focused on implementation. Week on week, do the reviews, do the dashboards, follow that, you know, call report, follow how much new business development did you get? How much market share did you get? Those CEOs have been able to neutralize this impact by 50%. And if you panic, you know, so you have to get the plumbing, you have to concentrate on the plumbing. That's the second lesson. The third lesson is that is above consistency. Vikram again, that is one thing that I see a lot of people suffer from. So, you know, I've navigated Radio City through 12 years, okay? And in those 12 years, we've seen everything. We've seen recession, we've seen good years, we've seen bad years, we've seen years where we were leaders, we've seen years where we were not leaders, we were only player, many more players came, fragmentation, everything we've seen, okay? Why consistently Radio City has been able to beat the market is because of the consistent behavior it exhibits, A, in people. So the concentration on having the same people, and I think that's, Sony is another example of that, therefore 15 years of the same team is running the show. You know, they've seen all the cycles. So they know how to do, they've seen the good days and the bad days. So when a crisis situation comes, they don't get hassle, they do, because they've seen bad days and they know how to get out of it, okay? So that consistency of people, consistency of product, 39 stations, the Coimbatore station that, and you know, the retail team was talking about how difficult it is to have the store behave in the same manner as your central store. Here, imagine we are doing things on, it's on air. I can't prerecord, unlike television, prerecord and send it out on Coimbatore. There's a live station going on in Bombay. There's a live station going on in Vizag. There's a live station going on. If the RJs talk behaving differently, changes the whole, changes the entire brand of Coimbatore. So how do I ensure Reducity, Coimbatore, Bombay, Delhi are exactly the same by excessive monitoring and excessive control on the people. So that bit that you have to put in place with your consistently giving the same product to your advertiser. I think that's the other consistency that we need to focus on. So these are the three lessons. Great nuggets there. Now, because the default option when it comes to demand is a fact that we are living in a derived demand business. If the client spends, there will be growth. If the client doesn't spend, there will not be growth. Now, you guys have probably written the book on this, but obviously, even the gist that we're getting from the other speakers is that agencies, media owners have every right and need to stimulate the demand, and we have absolutely no excuse at the end of the year to say 12% didn't happen because people didn't spend or clients didn't spend. So what is it? Let's not think about clients for the time being, but what is it that media owners and agencies can proactively do to buck the growth rather than be a victim of lack of it? Now, I think it's a great question. It's not always easy for all kinds of media companies, but again, when I speak, I speak on behalf of Google here. What we really look at it is that, how can you, in a difficult situation, it's not always about trying to get the revenues up for the client in terms of how do you get more product sold or acquired board customers for them, but many times it's also about how do you really try and get the cost reduction by things that you're trying to do? So it works both ways, right? I mean, if any one of you are a finance practitioners, you will know when you can either create, generate revenue or you can cut costs, that's called JAWS, and you can actually sit on the table and try and figure it out. We work with telecom companies and we continue to work with telecom companies just as an example to say that, how can we help you solve the problem of churn? How can we help in policy bazaar, for example, how do you help the policy bazaar through moving them on cloud analytics using a assistant to actually solve for their conversion rates, which are completely online to online. Last month, we came up with a case study with them. They actually sold 16,000 policies online without any human intervention through Google Assistant as an assistant. So you need to start thinking that, what is it that you really want? As I said, what is the problem that you're trying to solve for your consumer? And then work towards that. I think when you go yourself with having done a bit of homework and you're a lot more informed, A, about the industry, B, about the particular client, and you go with actually data to support it, as I said, data insights and foresight to me, that is the critical element that actually comes in play over here. You will find clients opening up. And when clients open up, they will always be a solution. The only thing is that, do you go there as an advisor or do you go there as a product seller? When people go as product sellers, things will not work for them. Brilliant. Let's quickly move tracks to one, what could be a zero sum game? Do you believe, firstly, the choice between TV print, radio, outdoor, digital, cinema, all of these, is it a zero sum game? Or is there enough for everybody? Apurva, start with you with a sobering thing that we've got. This, again, IRS has come with some patchy news. English papers have AIRs which are crashing. And some papers, in fact, you must be happy because in Uttar Pradesh, the AIRs have gone up considerably. So, do you feel, firstly, the zero sum game and from a print standpoint, is anybody raising the fatalistic point? So I don't think it's a zero sum game. I think there's enough for everybody. We know that even now, media and advertising as a percentage of the GDP is just 0.5% where internationally it's around 1.2%. There is still scope for that increase to happen. And for that increase to happen, I think there's enough scope for everybody to grow. You also know that the rates that the CPTs in India are one tenth of the CPTs anywhere internationally. So I think there's enough and more scope for everybody to grow. Specifically on print, I think, yes, English media is facing a challenge as we saw from IRS but I think everybody needs to reimagine. And maybe we will beat that circle where internationally if you see, if you saw what's happening with Guardian and what's happening with New York Times, people are going back to print. And I think the challenge is that print phase there was very different. They didn't get the distribution right. They themselves stopped distribution. Here, when you're getting a paper at 100 rupees, three papers a month, why would you not, and coming at your doorstep without you doing anything about it, I think I wouldn't beat the death knoll for print very much in a hurry. So Rohit, there is a think tank in the US called, she's Mary Meeker, the person who leads these reports about overall media and digital kind of consumption. She releases a report sometime this time of the year. She seems to always say that money's marketing money should follow the time spent on media. By that token, digital should reach 50% of spend at some point in time. Firstly, do you believe that advertising money should follow the time spent on the media? See, not necessarily. Depends upon the, again, the, you know, I mean, a lot of these global trends, you know, India is a very different country. And you need to understand television in India is very different to global television because there, while India's pay TV is really not pay TV, okay? You're paying $3 for 600 and 700 channels, 200 bucks. R for 600, 700 channels. You get to see IPL, you get to see the best shows and 200 bucks. There you wanna see EPL, you're paying 50 pounds a month. If you wanna see EPL in UK. So the model there is very different. So in fact, digital, and I always believe that, is actually aiding television because today, digital in India has more catch up. So if you're going home, you see a bit of the match, eventually you see it back on television. Televisions are becoming bigger. Screens are getting bigger. So as a broadcaster, we gotta be screen agnostic and we gotta be part of every screen. So hence, we have our own OTT platform, Sony Live. But having said that, TV in India, if you really look at it for the next five, 10 years, there's a huge, because TV still, you reach about, you know, close to 600, 700 million people, there's no other, there's no other huge provider which can bring you that. And that's only growing, because if you're adding 10 million homes every year, that translates to about 15 million people are coming on TV every year. So I think every medium is gonna grow in India, because entertainment is just a 15, 18-year-old industry, unlike, you know, Head Start, like the US, which is a 50, 60-year-old or probably 100-year-old industry. That's all. So if you look at television, it's 20 years, 18 years, you know, and it's still growing. So the headwinds are behind us. The economy's doing well, if the economy grows at 7%, and also you need to understand the amount of new categories which are gonna come into India. We're still touching the tip of the iceberg. And every time a new category comes into India, television, print, digital are the mediums which he's gonna use. So there's still a long way to go. And I think even in the worst of years, you know, television grew at 8, 9%. And the best of years is growing at 15, 18%. So if your worst is 8, I think, you know, there's no other industry which can say something else. But Vikas, will that deter you from asking for 100% of the client's budget in your next meeting? No, not at all. I think there's room for everybody to coexist. I think it's, my view is that, you know, media planning should move towards audience planning, right, we should be where the audiences are and people need to start thinking a bit. And it's about advertising that performs and everybody is looking for, you know, I mean, it's not just performance advertising as people used to think in digital, but today branding on digital has become branding for performance. And you have solutions which are there, for example, on YouTube, et cetera, that gets you action, YouTube for action and there are two of you for action, et cetera. So the way I think the customer on the other side is also looking for is that where do you get the most measurable, most effective bank for the buck? They still have the same amount of money. You still have the same amount of people. It's just great that data prices and mobile prices have come down so suddenly people have a lot more time in India to start watching a lot more content. But I think more importantly to me, if I may take another minute, is that the way we see it from a digital lens is that the first 200 million people who came on the internet or the first 250 million people who came on the internet versus the last 200 million who've come on the internet are very, very different profile. Their media consumption habits are very different and we also start, we need to look at that. So what I'm trying to say is that we call it the 3M story and the 3V story. The 3M story really is that the last 150 million and the next 100 million, they will come beyond metros, beyond millennial and beyond mail. We need to understand that because the content consumption there will be very different from the earlier. And the guys who are now coming in, the 3V story really is that for them it's video vernacular and views which are very, very important. It's no longer most mediums. It's obviously, even for digital now, you are going much beyond English. In fact, anyone who can speak English is already on the internet, right? So that's kind of done and dusted. And video viewing is gonna be the most important thing as we go along which is where TV, video, et cetera is. And I just wanna give you one more example and then I'll hand it back to you. I know time's running out. But it's like my daughter actually keeps asking me that every day in the morning, everybody sits in the house. I have my in-laws who live with us. They get, there's a bunch of papers that come in. He will read it. I cry and read it and she will read it and she says, why should the front page look the same? My need for content is different. My grandfather's need for content is different and yours is very different. Actually, only digital can address that, right? Apugna wants to talk on that. But before, I just, I don't want to add one point on this thing, a quick one. I think we've not, we've not touched upon that. I think the big growth is also sports, which is gonna be the big driver for growth, television for sure, and digital. And I think that's gonna be a big driver in the next two to three years to make. Yeah, I can't let the panel go without asking about yield. I think one of, even Sam made this point that we shouldn't be CPRP obsessed. We should be growth obsessed. And to that end, how can we make, what is the learning that we have that we can make the yield story a little bit better? Yeah. You've done this probably the best. So I think brands, you know, earlier, if you look at in the last three to four years when, you know, brands have become so focused on CPRPs that they've, a GRP for them is one GRP. The qualitative aspect of a quality GRP versus a GRP is moving away. And when you really look at brands, brands you use impact properties with others and you've seen the growth happening. Brands who just stuck to buying just airtime throughout the day. And you can see from the results that they're not doing so well. So I think over the last two to three years, impact properties, you know, have kind of taken a hit. We need to come back. Brands needs to start looking at impact differently because that is a qualitative GRP and obviously there's a premium to it. But that's what is needed today. And I think what we need to actually transform is to the CPT way. Eventually, like you mentioned, there's gonna be one medium, okay? One pricing today. So we are calculating a CPM, there is a CPM, CPT that they're on print. At least as a marketer, you know, this is my cost to get one eyeball. Now, is TV better? Is digital better? Today is very complicated. So I think the industry for TV has to move towards CPT to be more transparent. Apurva, any quick thoughts on increasing yield? Learnings, what can we tell clients that will make them? So I think media owners have themselves only to blame because they have ended up commoditizing the product that they sell. So if you sell, you have 10 seconds to sell you and everybody has 10 seconds to sell. So then what do you sell? It's like selling rice. There is no specific differentiator that you can build. So as Rohit is saying that you have to change the conversation to saying that I'm not selling 10 seconds. I'm setting this kind of audience, and I'm aggregating this kind of audience for you, which is different from my competitor and therefore give me a price hike. And increasingly I think the moment you move to impact advertising, which is true, and we are seeing our maximum growth and yield improvements coming when we are able to sell large impact properties. So if we sell Radio City Super Singer and we get two crore auditions, that's what the client is buying. Okay, so just in conclusion, if you have to give one piece of advice to advertisers, what would that be? And we'll just quickly go around the... Spend more on media research. Spend more on media research, okay? The future is the age of assistant. It is you need data, you need companies that who can process data insights and who can combine multiple avenues of data to understand your customers, to engage them and get them act because they need the assistant. Choose your partner carefully, people who understand intent and have the data and understanding to move with data insights foresight. Market research, data, Rohit, you're not a data guy. I mean, eventually I think advertisers need to really see move away from the lowest to see quality because today at the lowest, sometimes they're losing the entire money with no effectiveness. So eventually advertising is all about effectiveness, it's sale, it's very tangible and I think that's what they need to really start focusing move away from the price to effectiveness. Okay guys, that's been a stimulating panel. If you wanna get growth, don't look at the overall aggregate, growth has to be found. You have to find it by actually understanding the client's business, trying to see what the boom areas are ahead of time and then using insight, foresight, data, what have you and also the ability to actually sell a little bit of value in all the kind of extra properties that you have which can help grow that brand. So on that note, let's just thank the entire panel and you've been a great audience. I'm gonna request all the panel members to please remain on the stage and if I may please request Mr. Vikram Sakooja to present a token of gratitude to all of our panel members. Thank you once again.