 This episode of the podcast is supported by Bentley Lewis, an award-winning executive search firm. Hey, folks, welcome to the podcast. We are proud to be official media partners of Dive-In Festival 2019 this year, which is really cool. And we're doing a series of podcasts for the festival. And if you don't know, the Dive-In Festival is a global movement in the insurance sector, which is supporting the development of inclusive workplace cultures. It's a really, really cool work. They're in their fifth year. They're in about 33 countries now, so they do these really cool events, panel discussions all over the world, really helping to promote diversity and inclusion, which is very cool. Today I had the amazing Pauline Miller come in to speak, and this was one of my favorite conversations I've had. She's got a super inspiring story and great views on diversity and inclusion, leadership, and all of those good things, and we had a really good conversation. She is the head of talent development and inclusion at Lloyds of London and one of the driving forces behind the Dive-In Festival. I hope you enjoy it. Hey, it's Lewis. Welcome to the podcast. Enjoy our conversations anytime, anywhere. Cool. I'm alive. Pauline, thank you very much for coming in. No problem. I'm glad to be here. Awesome. So before, well, I'm really looking forward to speaking on all things diversity and inclusion with you, which would be really cool. But before we dive into that, I'd be interested to hear about your story and how you've got to, where you've got to, and doing the cool things you are. What I love about my stories is that people always say, how did you get into HR? And I say, well, actually, when I was 14 years of age, I went off and did my work experience like many of us do a couple of weeks in a department, in an office, stuff in envelopes. And mine was in the HR department of the London Stock Exchange. And when I left, I thought, I want to work in HR. And so a slightly diverted tour, but I ended up in a HR department after a stint in IT. And I was in the training department. So my role then was to be very much in the talent development space and working with, at the time, an investment bank in talent development and developing people. And was this straight after school, though? After university. So you grew up in London? I did grow up in London. Yeah, I was born outside of London, but I grew up in London. So I did my London, my work experience. I went off to college, went off to university. I had two children along the way, one before I left school. And then straight through university and straight into a training role, but for an IT firm. You did, did you and Wiley had a kid as well? Amazing. I had one before. I had one at school, carried him into uni, got pregnant in my second year with my daughter, graduated, went straight into a graduate training role. Amazing. How did you cope with, I barely coped with uni. Look, I'll tell you, you went to university in London? Yes, I did. I went to Greenwich University and I studied business administration, majoring in personnel as it was called back then because I had my sort of goal. And I think what happened for me was that I knew what I wanted to do and the children just had to come along on the journey with me. What's it made you super organised in? I'm not sure if I was super organised, but super focused. So being really focused on what it was that I wanted to do, what I wanted to get to. And actually, when I was at school, university was the option. That's what I was going to be doing. So, you know, yes, I got pregnant, but actually, I still had university as that long sort of, you know, that forward goal. That goal you always had. So I think, you know, it's really important we give young people that chance to see what their goal is because it doesn't matter if something comes along and steers you off path, as long as you know what direction you're heading. You can continue on in that in that way. They definitely, that's a good advice because just things happen in life. Yeah, absolutely. That's the nature and no one story is the same. And so we've just got to learn what's the road that we're on. And sometimes there'll be a few bumps along the way. So so I always say to, you know, my children have grown up having to live with, you know, HR mum and one that focuses on diversity and inclusion, which I switched to after about eight or nine years in my first few roles. I transitioned within from an investment banking division into the wealth division of the firm I was at and moved into a diversity role. Fine. What was the reason for wanting to kind of focus more on diversity and inclusion? So I had a great friend in the investment banking side who was working in diversity at the time. Back in 2005, I was sent to New York. And, you know, I always talk about sort of certain managers, different points of your career. And when I was with when I was in the investment bank, this particular manager came up to me and said, we need somebody to go to New York. I think you'd be the right person. And I said, you know, when do you want me to go? And he said, tomorrow. Now, you know, why was he great? Because he didn't look and say, oh, you know, she's got two children. She's a single mum. She couldn't possibly travel to New York short notice. Now, I said, give me half an hour and I'll let you know. And I said, look, I can't go tomorrow, but I can go the day after and pack the children up, send them to my mother's, you know. And off I went to New York on a undetermined length of time. And whilst I was there, I got involved with the diversity groups that were out there. And when I got back, I thought, you know what, my passion has got to be to move into the DNI space full time. As opposed to working with networks and I'd run some networks and I'd been involved in the networks in London. When I got into New York, I knew that that's where I wanted to switch over to. So I came back and sought out a DNI role. Amazing. Amazing. What was your biggest challenge going through all of that journey? Oh, you know, I was working in, I worked for a media agency, a strategic media agency before the investment bank. And I thought that was tough in terms of the hours. And investment banking is a tough industry, and it was back then. So I would say that in those those periods when the children were younger and you're trying to juggle all of those things, so you're trying to struggle home life. You're trying to work, you know, very long days or picking up work in the evenings. It's really difficult to fit all of those things in. And, you know, I think it's great now that we've got a better recognition of how important it is to balance work life and how important it is to take care of our own well-being. But it is back then for me, it was a huge stretch to be a single mum and, you know, have a five year old daughter and trying to work in a long, you know, in a long hours environment. Yeah, I didn't have like flexible working and all that stuff back then. No, I recall having a dialogue once when I was in fact, I was shifting firms and I needed to work from home for a day to get the handover notes prepared. And I remember my boss saying to me at the time, could you could you not tell anyone else in the department in case it creates a demand for home working? You know, but we were laptop users. So, you know, just still do it if you want to. So I think now, you know, I work from home quite flexibly. And I think we see more and more of that. And I think I've got to embrace it. Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah. And what does DNA mean to you? Exactly. You know, I think it's really interesting because for me, diversity is all about for me, diversity is all about how different people have different aspects of their lives that we don't know about and we don't appreciate and we don't value. So some people look at me and think, oh, she's a woman. Some people will go, she's a black woman. Some people will know that I've got most people know I've got children. Some people will go, oh, she was a teenage mum. I'm all of those things. I'm not one thing. And I think that that for me is what diversity is really about. We are a multitude of different things and we've got to learn to value that. And so the inclusion aspect of that is ensuring that people feel valued and engaged and in the work context that they can come into work and feel that they can deliver their absolute best and be appreciated for it. So I think so for me, it is about recognising individuals and it's about how do we make sure we appreciate those and create that fairness for all. Yeah. Have you seen it change over the years? Oh, it's gone for a while. When you started doing that, it must have been. When I started, it was very siloed in terms of diversity groups. So it was very much a you do something for the women, something for the LGBT community. And actually, back then, there was a lot of more focus on LGBT and not the T. Something for the ethnic minorities, but typically they were separated out into their own groups. I think what we're seeing now is and I I'm not necessarily one to use the words. I'm not really all about the intersectionality, which is the big buzzword. I'm much more about what we see is that groups that are working together, recognising that they have multi multi aspects to themselves. And actually, they don't want to just be talking to themselves. What they really want is to be able to talk to different people, to either educate, to partner with and to support each other. And let's be honest, the world is much more diverse now and much more complex than it ever has been before. Yeah, and London means fantastically. Oh, I love London. But, you know, we have pockets of London where you don't see that diversity in the same way. So you don't see the blend and the mix. And that's true. Sometimes I think that's what, you know, is part of the cause around the social challenges that we have as well. Well, you have, you know, you have like people like people like themselves, you know, and say, you know, I'm Jewish and, you know, in the Jews came, we all lived in the same area together. And it's the same for other other immigrants and stuff. Absolutely. That's the cool thing. But then in the city, you have this massive. Oh, yeah, everyone comes together and you have this like massive melting pot and blend of different people. And I think that's that's that's the key is that, you know, you see it in the city and I think we've got to embrace more of that, especially in our big in our big city hubs, so London, Manchester, Birmingham. We've got to be able to make sure that we're bringing all of the communities in that we're engaging different communities, bringing them together and that we're recognising that there's a value to that. As much as we see outside of our offices, we need to do that inside as well. Definitely. And so you're seeing you're seeing then that a lot of the the organisations that are trying to promote diversity for the LGBT, for female, etc. And I'm all coming together now because over the last, I don't know, let's say five, ten years, as you mentioned, they've all been quite siloed. Yeah. And I think, you know, you're starting to see it, but you still see you still see a lot of organisations kind of trying to organise events and networking for that specific. So I think what you tend to find is that the is so mostly in organisations, you tend to find that those individual groups are organising events themselves, so that it's grassroots led. And yes, organisations are supporting it through resources and funding, etc. But it typically is that these are groups that are that enjoy coming together either through support, you know, they have a connection with each other. I think, you know, it may not be an obvious one. You know, that's always the one people always think that, you know, if you're going to go along to the LGBT group, they must all be in the LGBT community. Well, actually, it could be that they're parents of children who are LGBT or it could be that they are just truly a supporter of equality. It really varies. But they may organise an event that they feel is of interest to people who are like-minded, and I think that's what we tend to find and why we still see those events. And I don't think there's anything wrong with networking and engaging with people that you have a bond with, a connection with, that you share similar interests with. That's the human nature. Definitely. And have you seen, have you seen it improve a lot since you have been working in D&I? Like, are we in quite a good spot right now in London? No, never, never. What are we like? You know, is it I mean, I mean, it feels London, you know, London is a pretty good spot to live and work. So I think we are, I think there have been improvements. I it would be wrong to say that we haven't seen progression in the diversity and inclusion space over the last 10 to 15 years. I think what I would say is that there are still areas where we are woefully behind, you know, if I took disability, for example, that space is huge. The, you know, the number of people that have a disability, we typically think that people were born with disabilities and that's not the case. Most people acquire their disability and when they acquire their disability within a year, they tend to find themselves not in the working environment. So I think it's really important for us to recognise that whilst we've made progress in some areas and there is still more to do. So in all of the areas, it's a spectrum and in all of the areas we're on that journey and some of them we've made greater strides because I'd say because it's an easier one to start with. And that's what organisations tell me. And when I'm talking to be at HRDs or CEOs, they they often say, well, you know, we're starting with gender because we can work on because we know who the women are. We know we can work on that. We're really worried about asking questions about any of the other areas. So we'll start with women. Some firms have taken the approach that they'll work on and focus on women and that will then filter through. But the reality is, is that we need to understand the challenges that individual groups are facing. So be it those with a disability, be it here in mobility or etc. That what we find with disability, for example, is that there is a progression of focus or a greater focus actually around mental health and wellbeing. Because we know that that touches and has to touch every single person. So even if you feel that you are absolutely great, that's because you've got good wellbeing right now. But the reality is, is that at some point in our life, we'll all experience, you know, sort of less a lower level of wellbeing. Yeah. And so that's why, you know, again, one of those big areas that organisations recognise can impact just about everyone. So that's what we've got to. We've got to move the dial on some of those areas. Definitely. If you're in like because I think just over half of people work in mid-size or smaller firms. And the great thing about big firm is you have all of these wonderful resources and all of these great things going on. What can you like small SMEs are doing enough? Or what can they do with the limited resources that they have? You know, I had a great dialogue yesterday where we were talking exactly about that with our chairman. And we were talking about the fact that in small organisations, it's really difficult for them to say, well, we're a firm of 10. You know, we're a firm of 10. We all feel really engaged. But how are we going to diversify and these targets aren't going to work for us? So, you know, we I see that. And what I often say to small organisations is we're not expecting you to go out and set up a network for your 10 employees. You know, we don't I wouldn't encourage you to do that. What I would encourage you to do, though, is to partner with others. So engage with other organisations that are of a similar size. You can help to provide. So if you're an organisation, an SME, you've got some women in the organisation, but the management team is all male, for example, and you're trying to find a way to engage them. Partner up with others. Find senior women if that's if that's what they say. You know, I don't have a role model. They don't have to come from within your firm. They can be. There are role models up and down the city. There are individuals that are doing amazing things that can be translated back into the business. You can encourage people to further their career with opportunities as a school governor, for example, to gain the board skills that will position them for future roles in your own organisation. So there are different ways you've just got to think creatively, but you've got to be willing to do it. Yeah, and also the employee as well needs to seek some of this stuff out. Oh, yeah, I mean, it's so easy to sit back and say, well, my employer doesn't do anything for me. You've got to you've got to be wanting that as well. You know, it's a two way dialogue. Employment is a two way contract. It's both the employer and the employee. And, you know, career progression, development opportunities, you know, putting your hand up for roles. You've got to be able to do that, as well as have great managers that will reach out to you. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. We see a lot of discrimination in the workplace. It's got better over time, do you think? I think I think it depends on the industries that you're in. So I think some organisations, some industries have progressed a lot further than because they started this journey earlier. And if you think discrimination started out in that sort of, you know, very much, it was all about, you know, diversity and inclusion was very much about equality. So it was all about legislation and making sure we comply with the law before it moved into this diversity space inclusion. And you can take all of the words, you know, now it's belonging. So, you know, there's this array of progress. And that's what I think it's showing. I think it's showing us that we have progressed from just focusing on law to, you know, really thinking about how people feel and belong in their organisations. That said, some organisations started earlier and sectors started earlier. So you've seen more progression in those areas there. True. I think, you know, I'm in the insurance sector. So, you know, we've started a slightly delayed pace. You know, women only entered into the laid building in the 70s. Crazy. So that just sets the tone and shows you that it took a lot longer for us to move the dial. I think from in terms of discrimination, I think that there are pockets where people will still feel that they have not had the same access to opportunities as other peers in their organisations. And we have to understand what's what's driving that. And a lot of the times it's because we haven't thought about how decisions are made in the process. So have we looked at bias that's involved in our recruitment process, so where we attract our candidates from, how we interview them and how we make those selection decisions and have we put the processes behind that to make sure that we are removing any forms of inequality and imbalance in processes like that. So, and I think we have started to see that. We implemented in my own firm, we implemented mandatory training for those in the recruitment process. So if you are going to recruit, you must have an accredited recruiter in that process. Oh, right. And we've to, and those accredited recruiters have gone through training that talks about not just the interview and how to ask a good question, but how to write a job description so it doesn't use words like strong and bold, which may only attract certain candidates. True. No, that's true. Interesting. No, I mean, I see it all the time. Obviously, I'm a headhunter and it's funny. You go and see clients, insurance, banking, whatever. And they always say, I mean, a sector experience is super high on so many people's lists and certainly in insurance. And so you find they're all fishing in the same pool. Yes. And when you ask them, you know, well, why is it important? You know, how come trying to open up the, you know, it's a bit of a battle. So I find that quite interesting. And I think we recognize that the world is changing and the way that business is performed is changing and the, you know, the advancements of digital and different entrants to the market. So, you know, if we don't adapt the way that we do our business, which requires people with different skill sets, we will fail because there are competitors and other sectors knocking on the door ready to get involved in the insurance sector. So we're in that mode of having to make sure that we diversify the talent that we have, the skills that are in and coming into the town. No, definitely. I mean, even like the really cool techie digital people, I mean, I don't think you have to wear a tie at the Lloyds building anymore, which is a great step forward. I think a friend of ours, Josh, wear slippers. Yes, he does. Which is cool. Love, Josh. Oh, that's great. But it's true, you know, if you turn up to an interview and, you know, the people sitting in front of you are like super smart and you're just like, don't identify with, you know, it's very hard to take a job there and see yourself working there. I like to think that I'm the most colorful person walking through the underwriting room on a daily basis. But it is very much, we encourage people to dress according to their own organisation because, of course, we have lots of companies working in. But, you know, it's quite interesting because culture deems that people do, you know, I do go in the underwriting room and see people with a jacket on. And they're suit and they're tie. And actually, I'm sure when they get back to their own offices, they probably take the jacket off and take the tie off. So it takes time to shift cultures and shift attitudes. But I think, you know, by removing the dress codes and encouraging people to dress for their diary. That's true as well. As opposed to, you know, anything else that rather than giving them a prescriptive dress code, just dress for your diary. Yeah, if your firm allows it. I mean, you are seeing more now that are. I think we're seeing more. We have that in place. We dress for our diary at Lloyds and we flex according to our day. So that's important. So do you feel that you can really be yourself at work if these recent changes? I think that I've probably been myself at work for a little while. And that's probably because when you're in the diversity and inclusion space, the only thing you can be is as authentic as possible. And so I have people who come and seek me out regularly. And, you know, I had a conversation with an individual who was saying that, you know, they felt that they would need to, you know, dampen down their personality. And I said, well, you know what, don't do that. You are going to struggle to interact with people if you are suppressing your natural, you know, your natural spray. And so, you know, I said, I absolutely am as bubbly as I am. I pick my environments, particularly to where I believe that I will be able to deliver the best and where I can continue to enjoy and progress my career. Now, if I don't think I'm a match, I'm probably not going to go there. That's fine. And most people wouldn't necessarily think that going to Lloyd's was a match for the bubbly black girl from London. But actually, I know that I am confident enough that my experience and knowledge and skills is exactly what I'm offering them. And that I don't need to change any part of my personality. Obviously, in different situations, I'm engaging at different levels. So, you know, when I'm talking to CEOs, I'm just as bubbly, but I'm very careful to listen to what they're saying so that I can make the points that they've been, you know, that I need to get across and that they're looking to hear us. I think that's just me. And what about, so what are the barriers for people feeling the same as you? So this guy or girl, you know, what was the, what's the thing that stops them? What I, you know, said to that individual was it's really important to just be open and to listen to people. One of the things that we don't tend to do often enough is to allow people the opportunity to make mistakes and to learn and just, you know, so I always say, I'm a black woman. I like to define myself as that. And people will hear me talk about that all the time. Now, in this wonderfully modern and complex world that we live in, people aren't really sure if they should use the word black. So they get slightly muddled up and should I use BAME or should I use something else? Is it minority or person of color? Which is a really common use of words in the US. So I like, you know, I will say, actually, I prefer to be referred to if you're going to define me by my color and by my ethnicity, I prefer you to say black woman. Now, first time, it's okay. I give you permission to make that mistake. I give you permission a couple of times over. But eventually you're not listening and you're ignorant. So I think we've got to give people permission to make some mistakes. And it's really tough because it can be really personal for people. So we've got to be able to give people permission but people have got to listen as well. So if we're inquisitive and we explore in the right way at the right time, it's not just a, look, I need you to tell me all about you. I need to hear everything from you top to bottom. That isn't the way. But the more that we break down those barriers and the more that we break down the stereotype that it will enable us to break down those stereotypes, it will enable us to be broader in our thinking and understanding. Not everybody will have had dinner with a black person when they were growing up. Think of it like that. The likelihood is is that everyone will have had some connection to if you're a man to a woman to a man. So it's about how do you create those pieces? And that's a two way. It's two ways. It's got to be. It's got to be, yeah, yeah. No, you're absolutely. What changes would you like to see in the workplace that can maybe facilitate these conversations more? You know, if people are awkward, not quite sure what to say, but want to, you know, strike up a friendship. I think it's multifaceted. I think organisations have an opportunity to be able to provide some of that information so they can recognise different days, different weeks, make it informative and informational for people to broaden their understanding of their knowledge. I think at the same time, individuals can be inquisitive and can go out and search for that. I'm not suggesting people do what I do. I go visit, you know, I'll go visit a temple. I'll go visit a church or, you know. You'd come to my synagogue now. I'll come to the synagogue. I'm literally, you know, I'm happy to go out and explore because I'm inquisitive. I'm not suggesting that, but you can find out about these things through simple resources and online. Now, that's at one level. That's just basic understanding. Organisations also have the ability to formalise in a more structured approach people's roles when it comes to broadening, you know, engaging with, you know, either being a mentor or offering to sponsor somebody if you're a senior leader. So they have the ability to put the processes and some of those more formalised programmes in place as well to help those from less advantage or underrepresented groups in their firms. Yeah. At the leadership level, you absolutely need to stand by your morals and you need to really be able to drive that through because what we tend to find is that at the very top, they do tend to be committed and at the very bottom, people are very engaged and the huge range in the middle, it varies. And so leadership need to be able to say, this is important and we're going to drive that down. The processes and the structures around how we work, what we recognise, what we reward and through compensation, for example, needs to enable people to take that inquisitive space, to take the information that's offered and then to be able to create the opportunities for people, for everyone to progress and develop. And are companies doing that well now? Not all of them. Those that have been on it a little bit longer. But you can look at some of the data points and we know that there are still some huge challenges in terms of whether it's ethnic minorities progressing into senior leadership levels and having opportunities, whether it is the lack of women in senior roles or the impacts that taking time out of their work has had in terms of their earning potential and growth potential. We see that through the gender pay gap reporting, although it's a fairly volatile measure because it's on one day. But we can see if you took a snapshot that that's all that's showing is a snapshot in time, but actually the impact of those career breaks. Now, how can an organisation address that? They can't do that right now. They're not gonna change it in the immediate. But one of the things that we've done at Lloyd's is we have not equalised our family care benefits. So however you start a family, whether that's through adoption, surrogacy, whether you're male, female, however. So do men get the same? Six months full pay. Really? Awesome. Six months full pay. It's rare. Male and female. Adopters, whether it's through IVF, we will give you six months. And those 26 weeks are then, if you take a straight 26 weeks, we'll then give you an additional four weeks phased return to enable you to settle back into the office because whether you're male or female, you will have had a six month break from work. Yeah. And what's the take up being for men? Do you know when we announced the policy and we did that in this year, it went live in April, then so we ran some dropping sessions so that people could come and ask questions. Yeah. All of the people that came were men. Interesting. Yeah, because it doesn't feel like okay to stick your hand up as a guy and say hi, I'm off for six months. The weird one. Do you know, I was in our Chatham office a couple of weeks ago and there was a guy who gonna become a parent and he was so excited about the fact that he was gonna be out for six months. So our next stage is to talk about that. It's to talk about the fact that actually, and men don't always take six months. It's an option. They may take two or three, but what happens when managers are thinking about opportunities subconsciously, unconsciously, you know, it's way back. It's almost like they take a period out or you know, now it's equal. You don't know who's gonna take six months out. No, it's interesting because person assigned to take six months off will be thinking, is it gonna have an effect on my career? And we know it does. But it's interesting. Now the decision is for men and women. The decision is for men and women. And actually, if all of the men, so I typically find at the moment, I think, we have had some take the full six. You know, we- Do you have to share it? Can I- No, we don't. So they can be off with their wife and whatever. It's an independent, yeah. It's an individual benefit for them regardless of what their partner is doing. Love that. But that normalizes. Yes. And that will take time to filter into the organization. So we only launched it in April. We haven't had our first full six month yet. But what we would expect to see is that a more equal and even blend of individuals starting to take longer periods of time. So yeah. So that's one of the things that we've done. Amazing. I love that. Moving back onto leadership, because you find people really struggle to get their first leadership role. Yes. Maybe whether they're looking for role models or just thinking about how to do it and what skills to develop. How would you recommend that people focus on and what traits do you think they need to- So first of all, in your role, whatever you do, you've got to be brilliant. Yeah, you've got to know your stuff. You've got to, you know, because that's essentially, that's your fundamental basic. That's the knowledge and the skills that you have to deliver in a role. But the areas that we tend to look for in leaders is very much about their visions and how they can look at, you know, sort of, you know, much bigger picture, understand what that vision is and be able to communicate that vision. It's really important for leaders to be able to inspire others. But most importantly, they've got to be authentic. So I would often say, you know, it's really important that you understand who you are as an individual. You know, what do you stand for? What are the things that you stand out with? Think about what your career looks like. What's the future plan for your career? I know what my future plan is and I've been doing that for the last 15 or so years, really thinking about what's the next role gonna look like and what are the things that I need to have those in that role. And there are really simple ways, you know, it can be really tough to find a role model. So if you can't find a role model, start with what's the type of job that I think is the next leadership job I'm looking for? What's the job description look like? What are they asking for? Now, can I start to see any of that that's transferable in maybe the roles that I see that are maybe, you know, other people in my organization? So if it says that they're looking for a great communicator, you know, you've got to be able to communicate with impact as an example, you might then say, okay, so communicate with impact. Do I have the opportunity to communicate? And how could I get that opportunity? Doesn't always have to come from within an organization. True, yeah. You know, if it's, and as I said, I was a school governor for 10 years and I was chair of governors for about eight and a half years. So, you know, I sit back and think, well, I've sat on a governing body. I now understand strongly budgets. That developed my skills around financial management to help me when I became a head of function. So I think it's things like that that you can do to help you progress into leadership. Like take some ownership of your career and... Absolutely. Even sports and... It's sports, a great opportunity. You know, I, as I said, I was a governor. I also sit on an advisory board for a movement within the UN Foundation called Girl Up. Amazing. And that was a, you know, a coincidence in terms of how I got there. I've been on... But you've put yourself out there. Put yourself out there. These opportunities have come. You've taken them and... ...taken them and also integrated them into my workplace. So, you know, in my last firm and this firm, they have both sent me off to Girl Up Summit. So I've been to Ethiopia, Washington, New York. Wow. And what is it, exactly? Girl Up is a movement of engaging young girls around the world to advocate and champion for gender equality. You know, we take girls sort of early teens. They learn about the challenges of gender equality. They go out and advocate in their communities. They raise awareness. They raise money and sponsorship. Supporting girls in Malawi, for example, with bicycles so they can get to school. Or supporting girls in school in Ethiopia. It's an amazing movement and I've never seen so much passion in the young girls that we engage with. And they go right up into their early 20s. They take that all through university. And I think what's great with Girl Up is that we are creating the next generation of future female leaders. And they will all walk away knowing how important it is for gender equality around the world. Brilliant. Amazing. And you've been to all these different countries. So I've been there. So I took a trip to Ethiopia a few years ago to meet the girls, some of the girls in the refugee camps. And when I got there, so I arrived in Addis Alibaba Airport and I was sitting in the airport waiting for the US team to come along. And it was just me waiting, waiting for them. And I was sitting there thinking, what am I doing? This immediate lack of confidence that I have just disappeared. It was like, I don't know anything about the plight of these girls. I don't know anything about Ethiopia. I don't know anything about refugee camps. I've got the briefing pack and I'm sitting in this airport. And oh, and by the way, there's like a TV star coming and people will work at the UN Foundation. And girls who are younger than me who have been advocates for years, I'm an imposter. And that's what I thought at the time. And it took a couple of days for me. So we'd gone from Addis Alibaba. We went down to Jujiga where they have some refugee, there are a number of refugee camps. There were three, we visited two refugee camps while we were there. And in one of those refugee camps we were in somebody's home. It was a mum, but she had a number of children, seven children. She had walked days to get to Ethiopia. And we were asked, asked as the contingent visiting, sitting on the floor in her home to just introduce ourselves and say a few words. And everybody was talking and they're doing their piece. And then it got to me and I was like, I have no idea what to say. But I looked at her and what we had been talking about before was two of her girls that had opted to go out to not go to school. And she was a relatively young same age as me. And I looked at her and said, I understand. And I know what it's like to be a mum that wants the best for your children. And I know that you had your children are young and they're 13, 14, 15. And then I looked at the girls and said, at your age, I had a child. And you can do, you look at me now and think, oh, she's this wonderfully big executive from a firm. I said, I was a teenage mum. I had a child at 15. And at that point, it was almost the, I get my purpose. My purpose was to go out and be able to talk about the work that the organization does, but also that actually we can still achieve, you can still drive forward. You still have that chance. So I came back from there and it was life changing. It was life changing. But it just strengthened the work that I was already doing. So I'm honored to be able to go out and work with the Girl Up Organization. And we do a summit here in London now as well. We're heading to our second summit in October. So awesome. I love that. That's great. And Diving Festival as well. I mean, you're busy. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, we are busy. So what are you looking forward to this year with Diving? So Diving, this year's our fifth year. And you've been involved right from the beginning. Yeah. So I signed my contract and about two weeks later someone said, so we're going to do this diversity week like a festival. And I joined in the June. So I was able to be involved in the early sort of some of the earlier meetings, a couple of meetings in the run up to me joining. And then I attended some of the meetings with the culture group that was sort of pulled together to put on the events for a day around culture. So I was watching from the side in the first year. And I was probably the only one in the first year that went to about 17 out of the 18. So I just... Just started. Better go to everything. Better go to everything. See what this is. And the second year I said, if we're going to do this again, it's got to be global because diversity is not just about London. I took that proposal. I took it global. And we're in 30 countries, more than 30 countries this year, more than 60 cities in countries like Bahrain and Nigeria, as well as locations that have been on this journey and have done just as an amazing job as the London and UK teams, Australia and the US are huge dive-in festivals. In one instance, I'm excited for that. But in London particularly, there are a couple of big points for me. I think the first is the partnership with the launch dinner at the Bank of England that will be hosted in early September. And for me, that is the very fact that we've been able to get such a great institution. We've got a number of CEOs and key stakeholders coming along to discuss what more needs to be done for our sector around diversity and inclusion. And that's a pivotal moment for us. Brilliant. I am always excited for the closing night. Our closing night this year will be a comedy night. We've done it before. We took a break last year because we had Lenny Henry come. Oh, nice. And it's still comedy, but it was Lenny. But this year we'll have, we've gone back to our comedy fest. And I'm so excited because it is just a way to sit back and enjoy the end of three days. Our opening event will be very special with Sir Trevor McDonald. I wanted to get him last year and we couldn't and really delighted that he'll be there this year. There are amazing. We've got Frank Bruno. We've got Frank Bruno talking about mental wellbeing. We'll have Ben Cohen talking about bullying. We've got some really brilliant speakers, but we've also got some really specific topics. Looking at things like fertility and looking at things like domestic violence because diversity is so broad. We didn't just want to go down the simple lenses. And so that's a really big piece for us as well. And then the final event that I'm really excited for is that in November we will be hosting a dinner to celebrate the fifth anniversary of diving in London. And what we'll be doing, and this is an exclusive just for you, is we'll be having an award ceremony as part of that, a part of that journey. And so- It's the first time you've done it. It's the first time. We may not do it again. The idea is that people will be able to buy tickets. The money raised will go to the charities that have helped us over the five years. So there are some great charities that have come in and given their time for free, WizKids, P3 diversity role models have all come in and they've been speakers, et cetera. We would like to give something back. So what we'd like to do is to have a fabulous evening, have some fun, but also recognize those charities that have supported us in this journey because we couldn't have done it without the charities. We couldn't have done it without the sponsors, the organizations that have got behind this, offered resources, and most importantly, the volunteers that have put the events together. Amazing. That's lovely. Well, what a great place to end. Thank you so much for coming in. I'm really looking forward to the event and congratulations on all the great work you're doing. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot. Bye. Hey, folks, thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places.