 Everybody welcome to the third episode in our series the stories women carry Today, I'm very very excited to have a similar deborak away with us as our Panelists we kind of shift focus from Kenya and our Kenyan panelists and move to Uganda to talk a little bit about the cultural sector and creative practice in Uganda This is a special edition with because it's a recorded session today and so We happen to be recording it on Diwali. So happy Diwali to all of our viewers everybody that's watching Thank you all for tuning in and of course You know, we still are offering American and Kenyan sign language interpretation that is happening live for this session So a special thanks to our KSL and our ASL interpreters for being here with us today Offering us this interpretation and of course to the Nairobi musical theater initiative Tiberias foundation and to the howl run theater commons for being co-producers on the series For those of you that are tuning in for the first time today. My name is Karishma Vagani I am a director producer dramaturg scholar and the official question asker of this series I Want to take this moment to introduce our panelists once again. I just you know It's I say I feel like I sound like a broken record every week because I say the same thing But these women that are present with us on these series are just so difficult to have a concise introduction for any of them Because they're all just so powerful and wonderful and So a same way is is part of this group. She's she's a playwright. I Think I'll instead of introducing all the multiple awards and all the multiple plays and the multiple Residencies and productions you've gotten I'll let you do that a same way I'll start off by sharing how that we met two years ago So which has felt like I think five or six years that I've known you for ages But it's only been two years since you've known each other And I I stumbled upon this connection through Catherine Coray and met a same way while I was doing some research in Uganda a few Summers ago. So hi a same way Hi, Karishma. How's it going? Good. Thank you. How are you good? Thank you so much for being on this panel today with me Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor. Thank you I mean as looking at the list of the women you're having these conversations with and I really felt so Blessed and lucky to have been included among them So thank you so much for having me. As somewhere you are a powerhouse You are wonderful and thank you so much for for being willing to share your story with us today and talk to us for few minutes Why don't you start off? Because as I said earlier, it's not going to be possible for me to to read an entire bio and do justice to who a same way is So tell us tell us who a same way is. I always like this is like my story time All right, again, thank you so much for having me and I want to first of all I think start by apologizing. It's raining in Kampala right now And my internet is a little unstable So if you see me frozen or you can't hear me all right, please bear with me But I am crossing my fingers that it will hold it together until the end of this interview Thank you. Okay, so Also, just thought I would jump in there and mention that we might have a little cameo appearance by a little somebody Later on as in way has has been off Work not really because the same way is always working, but she's been off work officially because she just had a baby. So congratulations Thank you so much. Yes, he might make an appearance on the screen. I don't know depending on How much of me he will need during the course of this interview? So let me introduce myself. My name is a similar Deborah Coway. I am From Uganda was born and raised in rural Uganda in a place called Chiruhura. A few years ago You would never be able to find that place on Google Maps, but I think now it's there And that has nothing to do with me So I was born and raised in Uganda. I got my education here until until 2006 when I left for the United States to do an MFA in writing for performance The California Institute of the Arts. I I Studied theater and performing for my undergrad at Macquarie University And I am a playwright Or I write things that people are so gracious to call plays So I guess that's how I come to define myself as a playwright. I I'm also a producer. I Produce theater. I produce an international theatre festival called the Kampala International Theatre Festival That is annual and happens in Kampala. I Also sometimes define myself as a performer, but I haven't performed in a long time So I don't know whether I still qualify to call myself a performer, but I do that as well and And Once in a while I direct for stage. I don't enjoy directing very much But I do direct and I enjoy the process of directing But I always feel like That's probably not my calling But I do direct as well. I don't know what else I may have forgotten I guess that kind of sums up of who I am and I am a mother of A nine months old baby Who is my joy and light? Yeah, and I live in Kampala, Uganda Thanks, Asimouye. Thank you for that. I have so many questions to start off with just because I always have questions for you Even when we're talking when we're not in an interview context but Tell me a little bit about your journey academically. You mentioned that you started off Studying theatre and the performing arts at Makerere and then moved to California Institute of the Arts to pursue your MFA What was the difference in education like tell us a bit more about that? Yes that journey Sorry repeat the question at some point. I lost you. Sorry. No, it's okay It's okay. Tell us a little bit more about the journey of studying performing arts at both Makerere and Cal Arts What were the similarities the differences? Yeah, how did the context change the way you approached performing arts? Okay So at Makerere University, I was actually there for five years like who does that? performing arts for five years So I started at Makerere University with a diploma in music, dance and drama and The course was kind of combined like you couldn't Specialized to just do music or just to do dance or do drama. It was like a holistic kind of course and Actually, let me rephrase that Students could select one discipline and specializing it but we were required to still like Study the other two disciplines. So for example, I Specialized in drama, but I still had to do everything that those who are specializing in music did and those who are specializing in dance did So it was holistic like that And so I studied that for two years and then because I wanted to get more of the drama component I went back to Makerere for three years to do a bachelor's degree and I was specifically studying drama Now when when I was doing the diploma course, it was very very practical more Most of the things we're doing were like with our boys are very very practical And and then for the degree for the bachelor's degree. It was more theoretical more academic And so it was I actually feel like That it was so great in the sense that I was able to get The world of both that I was able to get a component that was heavily practical and a component that was academic And so when I graduated After the three year course the bachelor's course I went to do an MFA at Cal Arts and This time I knew that I wanted to To focus on writing for live performance And so I studied an MFA in writing for performance And again, it was all about writing whereas for example When I was at Makerere Yes, we did write scripts for stage But it was like I mentioned it was more of how do you write a play as opposed to actually writing the play And so at Cal Arts, it was it is a conservatory Kind of program and so I got to really spend time three years of my time doing nothing but write and because the The way the school was structured at that point at that time We could as playwrights we could work with actors. We could work with directors And the school has other arts Displanes and arts genres. So there's visual arts. There's animation, there's Photography there's music So so we could we were encouraged to to collaborate with with Students from the other departments that I have mentioned So that was so cool in the sense that it allowed for us students to think broadly that theater Cannot be confined on stage that we could so I remember like my final thesis I was collaborating with a musician from the music school as collaborating with With students were doing videography Because it was a multimedia performance So I got this opportunity to dream beyond my widest dreams To see to imagine a performance that could have all these disciplines together And I think that was something that interestingly that was something that made me kind of access Um My artistic sensibilities from my childhood. I will I hope I can get some Moment to talk about that Because I was introduced into the arts and performance From earlier on as a child. I lived with my grandmother and and so for me Our Forming was not just one discipline. It was everything and so being at arts and being able to Access students who are doing all these things and being able to incorporate them into my thesis was such a joy And I felt like it was in many ways Allowing me to access my childhood voice And performance and ways of performing that I was introduced to as a child Hmm I see why that's so thank you for sharing that, you know Because I think it it really speaks to the kind of work that you create now as an artist and a playwright Um, but just as you've said, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your introduction to the performing arts. Um, what was the First time you accessed storytelling as a A part of your life So, uh So like I mentioned, I was born and raised in rural Uganda and when I was nine years old I Lived with my grandmother my maternal grandmother and my maternal grandmother always told stories always Folk tales fairy tales And I remember like us as children and my siblings my cousins used to converge in her house and she would tell us stories and The tradition in her house was that In the subsequent nights would have to retell those stories And and of course it was not just like telling stories They had a component of performing. They had song. They had, you know, she would really like perform these stories and so So that for me in retelling the stories It was my introduction into performance And into storytelling and the primary school that I went to which was very close to my grandmother's home also had storytelling Class I'm not sure whether primary schools still have that but I we used to have storytelling Classes where each pupil would be required to stand in front of the class and tell a story It could be a folk tale. It could be a fairy tale. It could be anything and then kind of Find ways to involve the rest of the class like through song or or call and response So I really believe that My introduction into storytelling to performance Was in my grandmother's house And like I mentioned because it was not just like her telling the story It was the all of us because she would require for us to sing alongside her She would teach us the songs in the story and then would sing with her It you know, like the stories from my culture have a call and response kind of thing So then she would call out would respond And so I I really do believe that that was my My my first school Into storytelling at it and performance I just love hearing you talk about your childhood in that way because it makes me reminds me of my own My introduction to storytelling was also through my grandma And she would you know tell all of these really interesting folk tales and myths and the journey of what it meant for you Know five generations ago for us to have moved from the Indian subcontinent to Africa And how that has changed the way we understand our our values in our culture You know as a fifth generation Africans of of Indian descent It's it's really fascinating that that the medium of Introduction of these stories across all cultures is so similar regardless of where you are You know, whether it's kenya or Uganda, whether you're from India or not or you know, um, so that's very fascinating to hear I think well, how does that If at all translate into or does that translate into your practice as a producer and a playwright today Wow, that's a very important question actually I you know for the longest time I didn't realize that the kind of impact that My grandmother's stories Had on me And I should also mention that So there's a term in my culture Which is called octarama and it means People gathering and telling stories sharing riddles and so doing all of these things that are very rooted into African folklore And I'm mentioning that because those actually do make their way into my writing So it's not just like telling a story. It's it's all of these things that that Make of African folklore so rich So for the longest time, I didn't realize that these things do make their way into my writing until I think that I think like it kind of dawned on me that All of my plays have song It's it's like an element that I subconsciously use And I was asking myself wait a minute. Where does this come from? And then I noticed oh it actually does come from um the storytelling tradition that that I uh, I was born and raised on and and then I the other thing that kind of you know Comes into my writing is Uh a folk tales. So like I think about some of my plays and they are Like the basis of them is actually a folk tale I use them as a jumping off point into into telling The kind of story that I want to tell so and this is something that I I did not like sit down and say Oh, I'm just going to like borrow from the things that I was Introduced to as a child and bring them into my world. It's something that just happened organically um Can you give us an example of one of your plays and how that process went just sorry to interrupt you but Just so folks are able to access Okay, um Okay, I guess let me talk about cooking oil Uh, so cooking oil is a story that's about this 18 year old Who is uh selling cooking oil that is supposed to to be for her village as as aid And but she's selling it to get school fees and then the there's also a politician, please Okay, I'm sorry. I'm gonna pause a bit. Is that okay? Yes, please please Go ahead. Okay Great. Um quick commercial break that was uh, so essentially just to bring our viewers back I what I was asking you about is giving an example of one of your plays and how One of these folklore is kind of informed the way you're writing just so we could get a better idea Right. Yes, and I I was beginning to talk about cooking oil So cooking oil is a play that's uh about an 18 year old who is selling cooking oil that is supposed to be A aid for her starving village And and there's also a politician who is also selling cooking oil that He just wants to run for presidency. So he's just accumulating a lot of money to run for for presidency of his country and but this girl Is keeping money for her school fees now So when I was putting the story together The thing that was so strong on my mind was How much this 18 year old Must have like planned and maybe cried In the night crying herself to sleep because of the fact that She cannot go to school and her siblings are going to school and she's the first one But the her parents have told her to hold on until her her brothers have reached fine school And then maybe she can also go back to school And I'm thinking this must be devastating for her So what probably helps her go back to to sleep and I'm thinking probably by Her to to go back like she probably sings to herself a lullaby and so then I Began to research about different lullabies in in different cultures across Uganda and I came across this beautiful lullaby from Um From the busoga region busoga is in eastern in in the eastern part of Uganda And it's really beautiful and and I was like this is this is the lullaby And the lullaby is is like saying sleep sleep my baby. No, my baby is hungry because She does not have something to eat. My baby is hungry because she does not have something to eat Um And I was like, yeah Yeah, this is this is the lullaby that she probably sings to herself to be able to to go to sleep After crying her heart out in the night because she can't go to school And because her parents have told her don't go to school. So then that became a jumping off point For the for me to to write the play and actually the play starts with with uh with the lullaby Um Yeah, so that's that's an example. I guess that I can't give um and then For maybe I could also talk a little bit about About appointment with god So appointment with god has many many songs in it some are hymns Because I was I was raised in the church And so now also that part of me and I always felt like church was a storytelling space And the songs and and the priests, you know, like Reading from from the bible or all the preacher taking the pulpit It always felt like it was A performance space and then the singing the standing the sitting down or the rituals that uh that take place in church So so anyway appointment with god has some hymns and has Has some some songs like songs that we always sang as we we played games as kings And and so and and I used those two because of the core dynamics that are to play in that play Um and yeah, so I will just shut up. But yeah, those are the two examples that I kind of give Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much. Asimu. Um This is very helpful because I think I mean Folks who are watching us should possibly try and find ways to watch trailers or watch or read synopses of both cooking An appointment with god because I think they're such distinctly different stories set in different spaces. Um that Both use similar techniques, right? Both use folkloric backgrounds both use traditional elements to then tell this very contemporary story about A specific experience that we have as africans or an experience that we have In the rural world versus in the urban world, uh, you know in as immigrants to a different country Um, I had the pleasure of being of assisting one of the readings of appointment with god with sahim in February It's part of the playwrights realm festival So um that was very exciting to see how the piece kind of came to life and has grown beyond beyond that moment Because it's changed so much since since that time as well So yeah Yeah, it has it has and uh, and I think I think what was really I'm so glad that you mentioned that I think what was very helpful in that, uh, workshop under and eventually, um, the staged Reading of it at the festival was working with a director who totally understands the landscape within which the play leaves and Was so gracious to translating the the different elements that play in in in the period to the That that you know, you know, some of them do have the kind of you know migrating from one place to another facing, um Visa consular officers But the majority of the actors actually did not have that kind of experience So sahim was really amazing. So having you and sahim in the room who you know, like kind of Have experienced the kind of things that I talk about in the play That's really really helpful and and also the kind of questions that uh, that you guys were asking to kind of Help me to understand Understand the kind of story that I'm trying to tell vis-a-vis the story that I think I have told in the paper I want to shift focus a little bit into talking about the work that you produce but before then I I want to ask a question about Audiences and how your work is is interpreted and received in the various contexts that you've presented and shared worked in Work in so how was it how red hills for example another another play that you work that you wrote How was what is the difference in how it is received in the u.s Or in europe versus when it was produced in uganda and how did that if at all help inform The way the piece, you know evolved Yeah, that's the again, that's that's an important question. Um, uh, so Red Hills is is an adaptation of another play of a one-man show called dogs of ronda Was written by a playwright an american playwright called Sean Sean louis so I I had a fantastic opportunity to adapt to this play And and so it became red hills that was performed in new york in 2019 And in campala wait in 2018 and in campala in 2019 And it's it's really about So the background of the play is the random general site in 1994 and it's it's the play is between two to 36 year olds One random the other on american and um, who meet In 1994 that's their first meeting and they are both teenagers And so the play kind of happens now, but we go back to when they meet Um, so how was it received first of all? I mean The genocide in ronda in 1994 was such a huge, uh world um I don't know tragedy. I I wish there was such a word that That that is beyond tragedy. Um And something that could have been stopped but was was not stopped. Um, and so There are so many questions, uh, especially When I think about the western audience, there are so many questions surrounding like how could this happen? um and so like sharing that story and seeing these two characters Who come from totally different worlds? Trying to understand these events um Was really interesting in the sense that um I think the audience was still a talos about the fact that this happened And that the world was silent um And and so and they still and so many people still have questions And this is like it cuts across the world whoever got to know about this genocide People still have the questions, you know, even the victims themselves the survivors still have questions How could this happen and the whole world shuts its eyes and closes its doors on the ronda um Now bringing it calm to Uganda um I think it was what was interesting for me was one to see that In terms of the audience, we had more non-ugandans than Ugandans themselves And so there was a bit of what I experienced in new york You know very similar to what I was experiencing in Uganda because again like I think like 70% of the audience was non-ugandan um So the same questions, you know now when it comes to Ugandans Many of the people who came to see the show are younger meaning They were born most of them were born after 1994 all were Babies like I remember one of our leads was actually was telling me that he was a baby in 1994 So even as we were doing table work with the actors, there was so much that I had to explain We had to do a lot of reading We had to watch so much a lot of videos and and and some of the films that have been made in relation to the genocide uh So so there was a cross section of the Ugandan audience that was actually learning about these things You know, they had had yes. There was a genocide But like the deep understanding of exactly what happened of what is going on right now. It was like A kind of informative kind of you know playing then we had an audience that of course knew about these things I remember one of the One of the performances we had someone who actually talked about having witnessed bodies Coming through the river because during the 1994 genocide, you know, like I'm sorry. I'm going so dark into this So there were bodies as as as toothies were being slaughtered Their bodies were thrown into the river and they would end up in Uganda and actually Ugandans Would pick them up and bury them So in one of the performances we had someone who you know, like had witnessed that and and so those are some of the Like conversations that we had and of course because this is on our continent We were talking about how do we as Africans stop things like this from ever happening As opposed to always looking to the west to stop them. How do we want? Make sure that they don't happen But should they happen? How do we actually Be the ones to stop them from happening You know, so it was very In terms of it being hate we were really looking at ourselves internally and seeing you know Seeing how we Have failed our brothers and sisters in other parts of the continent and when these things are At our doorsteps how other people also fail us But then what do we need to do to stop these horrible horrible events from happening? Yeah Yeah, yeah, I mean kofi anan of I often think of what kofi anan said when he was you know A member of the u.s. I mean secretary general at the time saying that it was his biggest failure in his position Stopped this genocide um The fact you know having visited rwanda as well and in conversation with you and our colleagues and you in rwanda as well It's still such a a heavy topic, right and and rightly so because I don't think the trauma and the the Politics behind it have fully been worked out yet. So it really does bring up a lot, right? He does he does Go ahead. Were you going to say something? I don't know what I should say to anyone but yeah No, I was gonna say that it does and I think it it brings to the forefront our The complication of Of these arbitrarily borders the complication of Of colonialism the complication of you know divide and rule that that you know that some of these colonialists some for all all of To us, you know and and you know the The Like when I think about like the germans and the vegans who first took hold of rwanda And how that how they you know like completely separated who tos from tootsies and convinced them that They were two different races And which was like a manifestation of what was happening in europe at that time, you know um Yeah, so these things Bring up lots and lots of things that we as people who live on this continent need to really Think deeply about and find solutions to them. How do we move forward with all of this baggage? You know same way i'm so glad you said that because it's actually the next question that I wanted to ask you um An hour is never enough for us to really dive deeper into it But I was hoping we could pivot a little bit about and talk a little bit about your practice as a producer As a as the producing artistic director of tabiriats foundation and then also the kampala international festival theater festival How how does this? Dynamic that you've just spoken about the colonialism being able to understand each other as africans and understand how not to Make the mistakes that were made in our history How does that inform your curatorial choices as a producer? In both the kampala international theater festival and then also in some of the other programming you do at tabiri We do Yeah, I'm gonna say yeah, we do this together. Don't exclude yourself Yeah, so So at the kampala international theater festival, uh So it should just give just a little bit of a background about this festival So this is a festival that was born out of the work with the sundance theater program Was doing in east africa So the theater program of the sundance institute had an initiative in sequestern african country And they the institute was investing heavily in people theater makers In in broondi, if you appear kenya ronda tanzania and ukanda now For so many years the investment was into the playwrights of storytellers who are creating new work for stage But time came and we started talking about um For how long can the institute do this? And we started talking about how does it evolve? How do we As an institute because at that time I was an employee of the sundance institute east africa And we're beginning to to ask ourselves questions of how do we um Let the artists within the region like Take care of of this investment and continue to to work, you know, without Without feeling like the sundance institute has abandoned the kind of work that it had supported and the artists that they had supported So that's how the compiler international theater festival was was born So there was this this new work that had been created across the the region in those six countries that I have mentioned and There was no space for these works to be seen and enjoyed by east african audiences And I should also mention that for all of the work that we used to do with artists in east africa We always consulted with them. So is this is this something that resonates with the kind of work that you're doing With the kind of community that you work for The whose stories you're sharing with us and and so compiler international theater festival was born out of that there was there was um There was a strong conviction from the artists themselves That they needed a space where all of the new work they had created could be seen and shared and enjoyed by the audience So we started this festival and the kind of work that we were supporting as the sundance institute was Really work that spoke To what was happening in these artists communities. Okay, so But of course work that we knew could be accessed by other communities, you know Something that could be produced either by a uganan producer or by a french producer, you know So those were some of the things that were very very important to us So when kitf was born the first edition was specifically for eastern african playwrights And and and then eventually we opened it up to to the rest of the world and we received submissions from everywhere in the world um, and our interest Has always been we want work That speaks to the situations that Are happening in the artists artists communities but situations that are going to cut across You know across geographical divide across class divide across rest divide And projects that are going to spark a conversation Uh projects that are going to challenge the status quo projects that are going to Challenge taboos. So those are the kind of projects that we are interested in. I mean because also I know that you know art for the most part Does not exist in isolation. It speaks to the social political and economic landscapes of the communities that these artists Create this world. So the the the kind of work that we produce at campala international theater festival Is that kind of work that really probes? themes ideas asks questions would spark a conversation Would create a dialogue And it's always it has always been a tradition at the k itf that after every performance We use a dialogue between artists and the audience And and so when we uh started tebere arts foundation and tebere arts foundation Supports artists in Uganda and hopefully we are also thinking about supporting artists in east Africa Who are different stages in their career? We have an emerging artists program We have a mid-career and established playwrights program um, and we are really interested in in storytellers who are talking about things that are very that that People would Comfortable to talk about We we we go there. We support projects that really go there even for the emerging artists who really want to find Their individual artistic voice. Those are the kind of artists that that we support That that don't want to continue doing things as as usual that want to tell stories that That you know speak truth to power that want to tell stories that that Investigate taboos that want to tell stories That that you know that probably the public would cringe at yeah That's a tall order. I mean it sounds like I mean We're in our seventh edition now, which is very exciting and this year It's it's great because we get to do an archival You know a nostalgic video that we will be sharing during our week of k itf But that's a tall order How do you go about achieving all of this? What is the what is the vision plan? What are the challenges? What is the? um What are the struggles with with trying to create that kind of space that engages artists in dialogues, but then really speaks to East african audiences in the east african and africa. I think african experiences Yeah, yeah Yeah, you know, it's interesting. You said that I don't know how it was a tall order Well, I don't know if anyone can do the arts in east africa in our region without You know doing that kind of things that I have just explained I Yeah, and I know colleagues who are doing like some kind of similar work I think because this is who we are. This is our environment So it never feels like it's at all order. It's what we do because this is where we leave And these are the stories that our artists are telling so and we've got to find ways of supporting these stories So that they can be heard and they can be seen not only by east africans or africans, but also by the rest of the world So, yes, their challenge is absolutely a zillion I think we need a whole other series to talk about the I am telling you you're absolutely right. Yeah, I mean I could speak for hours about the challenges that we face I think the main one like because we encourage stories that the break boundaries We we've always been weary of someone stomping k itf and shutting down the festival Thankfully it has never happened Hey And we hope it doesn't we hope it doesn't yeah Yeah, we I I'm really really grateful for that that this is our seventh year And we've never had an experience where we are being told you can never do this festival again um So there's always yeah It's always that fear that you know, what if this is the year that something like that will happen And and so we always have to think carefully. How do we cover our bases? um And now especially now that recently there was a bill in our parliament in the evenan parliament that I don't even know what to say that really stifles us as artists so in future for me to or for us you know to to invite productions for the k itf Whoever we invite we have to first um Take those those applications and submissions to the you get a communications commission for their approval And then they have been very um kind of hidden Taxes that we have to pay for for that for like to put up a festival If say I am producing my own play I also there are some fees that I have to pay so there's So there are things that have been introduced to kind of stifle creativity stifle freedom of expression through years um, and these are coming through like laws and regulations through Through internet taxes through through fees Fees and and so as artists we we don't we don't make money We don't have a whole lot of money at Kampala International Theatre Festival. Yes, we do charge You know audiences to pay a small fee, but it's not it's not like a money making venture So those restrictions actually are very challenging for us, you know our festival is Like 90 over 90 percent funded by You know different organizations And so we are not yet at a stage where we are able to actually like Make money from ticket sells and so for us to have to say Get money off of what we have already budgeted for the festival to pay For I don't know what uh, it's it's very challenging And also to know that if say I submitted a script that I think would Resonate with our audience that is very strong that you know Like has all of the themes that that we are excited about as as the As the festival staff and then for say they've done a communication commission to say no We don't want this production. So I mean, it's um, yeah, they are they are really many many challenges um But mainly censorship So assume how do you navigate these challenges within the festival? And then also trying to cultivate whilst also trying to cultivate the next generation of artists I mean, you mentioned we work with emerging artists, right? And we have a residential lab We have a lot of other programs that really focus on mentorship of the next generation of of of Ugandan east african african theater makers. So how do you what is the What is the in between is there ever going to be an in between you feel? For for a cultural revolution of sorts there. I say hopefully nobody's Yeah Yeah, I mean, how do I navigate this? I I Honestly, I also don't know. I don't know. I see one. I see a festival happening and And with like limited funding that we are able to do so much And I I'm like, wow, that's happened. But I should mention that I think having A core team that is extremely sold out to the vision that we have Is very helpful. So you are talking about me having a baby like last yeah, I wasn't even there for k Yes, I was busy having my baby And I but I I knew that I had a team in place That was going to carry forward the kind of vision that that we have as the festival So I think having A core team that believes in in my vision and in the vision that we started with as the Sundance together with baimba Having that core team and knowing that they are fully sold out to that kind of work that we do is extremely important and I think the other thing is to to always find ways of, you know, like navigating what's happening in the political space And know that okay if I put this production on What are the chances that the the people who are Involved in it are going to be arrested or not And and so like just keeping our ears on the ground is very important. We know what's happening and of course, I mean we One of the things I remember for example When I was doing cooking while cooking oil is a very political play one of the things that I remember we were talking about was If we have like an international team on the on the production It always kind of helps a bit because these Fragile democracies or repressive regimes tend not to look bad internationally Yeah, so Cultural diplomacy thing that goes on. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so also k itf being an international theater festival I think is kind of helpful because we bring artists from different parts of the world. So And I I guess also Yeah, let me finish that thought so I think that also kind of cushions us a little bit and also I think k itf Has it you know theater doesn't attract huge audiences like for example Music, you know, so I I'm imagining that if say what I were to have like 10,000 people At a festival it would probably Be an issue and would like be bringing attention to us All And you know, like the establishment would begin to ask. Hmm. What's happening there? You know, uh, so so yeah, so yeah So but in terms of like is there going to be any in between? I really think Like is San Africa generally we have such a young population And I think our young population is so Done like they are so tired, you know Yeah, they are so tired. They want to be able to express themselves They want to be on their own terms, you know, they don't want people to be telling them You cannot say this you say this you cannot be this person this kind of person You can only be this kind of person, you know Young people are so ready to be who they want to be to say what they want to say And to do all of these things on their own terms My hope and prayer is that even as we age as the adults You don't age you don't even like you tell me I'm 13 all the time, but I see where you're like All the time Yeah So um, so that we don't then become these kinds of people that have been like Ranging our countries for a thousand years for you know That's my hope that really like what we are doing is something that we will continue doing and that will create a space for self-expression for freedom of speech and and and for young people to truly like Take on these leadership positions. I'm very passionate about been mentoring young people really passionate Because I think that that's what makes Like in the area of the arts. That's that's what makes art continue to thrive and and that's what That's what allows people young people to really Self-define who they are right Right, that's such an uplifting and inspiring note I think for us to end on just this idea that you know We are in service to ourselves as artists But also to this future generation that will bring about the change that these repressive regimes need and haven't seen in So in such a long time Um, so I see me from the bottom of my heart on a personal and also for all our viewers on a personal note Want to say thank you. Thank you for being The person that champ has championed this sort of New age of work and and not only through your own practice as a playwright But also what I find so generous about you is that as you're as a producer you create this space for all of us to thrive as well So it's not only about you and your work, but it's about how does that work Fitted to this larger ecosystem that you're a part of championing and you're a part of building So, you know, it's because of people like you I believe that that young people like myself and other people of the future generations will look back and go This is the reason and this is the reason change happened. So thank you so much for Everything you've shared with us and for everything you continue to do Thank you so so much Karishma. You're making me tear up you know I don't really tear up on the early You're really making me tear up. No, I am so so thankful that I have been able to have this conversation with you And I am so thankful For all of the support that I have received as an artist myself the mentors that have been in my life for so many years and Yeah, I don't want to start mentioning names because that will be another hour And I am really also thankful for all of the artists that have gone through Tiberi as foundation doors and for the artists that apply to the Kampala International Theatre Festival and you know Bring their work here wouldn't offer so much to them But they they really like make the time make the journeys our international artists to come to Kampala Our Ugandan artists who have been really our ambassadors to serve to their work year in year out Thank you so so much for making me that kind of person that I am Thank you so much as same way. That was beautiful. Um, how can we follow you? How can we follow your work? Just as we as we sign off today Okay, so I um I'm laughing because lately my facebook account has been all about my baby I don't know if people will find anything useful in terms of my own work This is the thing I wake up every morning what seeing our peanuts photograph, but anyway, go on Yeah, so I am on facebook and my my facebook name is Asimwe Debra Gashoudi and Gashoudi's gka shngi And I'm also on twitter. Um, and my handle is at a dikdax adk d a k s And I and my website is Asimwe Debra kawai kawai Thank you so much, Asimwe. Thank you Just to shout like notice our matching that did not happen. Uh, we did not plan it. It was so coincidental. So talk about the aligning of the energies, but Thank you so much for spending this time with me on Diwali and for entertaining our viewers and for sharing your story And folks that have been that are logged in if you are interested in connecting at all with the work Please please do do reach out Um from next week what we're going to be doing is introducing a component to our series where you're able to ask questions live So for the purposes of this because it is a recorded session Feel free to reach out to me on my whole round platform If you do have any questions And we can be sure to forward them to Asimwe or myself and and get them and get them answered for you as soon as possible So thank you everybody for tuning in have a wonderful Monday afternoon morning evening and hope that the new year or Diwali brings up a A positive light in your life Thanks, everyone. Thank you Asimwe Bye. Thank you Karishma