 So let's start the last session of the day, which has a bit of broader purpose. And our topic now is financial decision making on the internet. My name is Andrea Recher and I have the Financial Desk of Suddeutsche Zeitung, National Director of the Newspaker. And until 2014, I was at the Rötschinkopf, Suddeutsche Zeitung in Frankfurt, reporting from the heart of the financial hub in Germany. So, two of our panel speakers you have already seen and heard. One is Lars, who jumped in for Klaus Ludwig from the BMF from the Financial Ministry, and he will cover the regulations part. Thank you very much, so shortly. And you already know, Deepin, of course, you have heard the last couple of minutes there. And I've got two new panelists here with me. One is Florian, he is one of the founder of Scalable Capital, a roguer advisor here from Munich. He studied in Vienna and has worked for more than eight years I think, in London and in York for a good one time. And in an interview, one of the founders said that Scalable is going for a great thing, and I'm curious to hear more about that big thing. Daniel, to my left, is the lead councillor at Reisen. Also FinTech, some of you might know it with their brand Welch Farm. It's an online market that's a term to process worldwide. And before joining the Berlin-based FinTech, Daniel worked for a well-known law company, he's one of them's head and mirror in the industry. He earned his law degree in Kassau and was a visiting researcher at Harvard as well. Okay. If you talk in German about financial decision-making, there's no way not to refer to Andre Castellani, some of you might already know him. He died in 1999, but many, many people know his flaws still today. And there's one point I want to start this debate with, which is in stock markets, in stock markets is often the gut feeling that tells you what to do. It's the brain that tells you what to avoid. So the gut feeling versus the brain was a brand line for a long time. In the old world, the traders were shouting at each other on the trading floors. Today, you can hear stock exchanges maximum, a small hum of computers. But the financial markets have changed a lot. So, Lars, I'd like to ask you the first question. Would you agree that the line has shifted from gut feeling versus brain to human work versus machines? Okay, I guess in some areas of the market, for instance, if you think about high-frequency trading or something like that, I think there's simply no way that you can outperform a machine as compared to a human being. I guess on the other hand what also happened was like my personal gut feeling is that the markets, as they have moved in the past, although not what that's predictable, has a lot of policy changes that have moved in and everything became much more riskier. And so your gut feeling might not be developed anymore as it was in the past. Their market markets are less influenced by big policy growth. Ethan, when I listened to your presentation, I was asking myself if people who invest in crowd-investing, do they even take financial decisions or is it more emotion or the pure gut feeling? So I think that's a really good question. We actually don't know enough about the micro foundations about why people are making decisions they do. So it's unclear whether in some ways it's about gut decisions aggregated out over time or better or whether it's the fact that some people work on guts and some people work on numbers and it kind of comes together. I think the important qualification is that we know that a human should be making large scale financial decisions, but we still aren't very good at computerizing early stage investments. So there's still a lot of gut in that and I don't necessarily think taking that all out at this point is valuable. Let's continue, Daniel. Raisin is a fintech that promises to raise your interest rate, which is a very good idea in that area of low interest rates. But can you maybe dig into that a little bit more how that technology you use does help in financial decision making? When comes the technology in your fintech? So basically as you explained, we're a neutral platform making possible products from banks across Europe to customers across Europe, so it is a German customer to buy a Spanish or a Swedish product. So we're a neutral platform, which means we don't want to influence the customer's decisions in a substantive way, but what we do want to do is actually get the customer to take a decision at all to overcome the natural inertia of customers to procrastinate in terms of financial decision making, and that's where our technology really comes in. So this means, first of all, architects of marketing technology use a lot of technology to optimize the circumstances and the way at the point in time when you approach the customer to actually increase and maximize their likelihood to take the decision to actually talk and think about their finances now. So that's where a lot of our IT intelligence goes into. And the second part I guess is as much IT as maybe process and legal innovation is wanting to make it as simple as possible for the customer to actually conclude the contract and get the product that he wants to and eliminate all the steps in between, eliminate all the paperwork so that in the ideal world the customer has an attention to now buy a positive product and buy from the sector to start it, and that's where we've got the time to do use a lot of legal tech and other innovation. Great. Scalable is a robo-advisor. Can you explain a little bit of your technology, what's behind your decision making process? Yeah, our product is quite different from Daniel's business. Daniel's word is about fixed income and you basically compare different interest rates. We invest on the half of our clients into the capital market so it's about uncertainty like in the crowd investing space and what we realized in our careers in the financial service industry was that a lot of people don't want to make decisions when it's about their investments, when it's about their retirement savings so we build an investment manager and an investment manager is making decisions on your behalf. You only have to decide on two things, how much do you want to give us and how shall we invest it with how much risk in our case. Once you make those two decisions we make all the little decisions along the way for you so we pick the right instruments we do the portfolio reallocations not just once but over time when the market changes, your circumstances change over time and we make all these decisions for you along the way and technology we use in several places we help you with technology with the first two decisions so how much shall you invest with us and how much risk shall you take depending on your personal circumstances where we employ technology and calibrate our models versus the crowd in some way because we collected a lot of data already and based on the decisions the clients made we can give better recommendations for future clients and also for existing clients and once you are a client you use technology to invest your money in an efficient way for you. You also use kind of the crowd. We use the crowd to refine our... I mean our crowd is our clients and we can make use of the data we gather from interaction of our clients with our platform and so when clients go through there are billions or more combinations how you can go through our onboarding survey and then clients make those two decisions in the end how much risk they take and how much they invest with us and even those two decisions sound quite simple but they are big decisions if you are talking about half of your savings and we help our clients by mining the data we gather from our clients and map it versus the decisions they made already. How important is artificial intelligence in your field? I mean it's a buzzword but it's about that... it's about calibrating models and running regressions but we don't use it heavily like in the investing part of our product but we use it to make our applications smarter this is where we use it like how you interact how often do you want to... we have a product where we invest in the capital market and the securities move every second and you could inform your clients every other second that your portfolio is now up 0.3% like down again and what we now do is we basically analyze the patterns and how often we look into the app to calibrate how often we notify them about performance in the portfolio so we do not annoy them but provide them with a reasonable level of notifications I have a separate question I'll ask later if you look at the financial markets and the financial market and the decision-making processes what do you think has changed if you compare the view of a private customer 10 years ago maybe and today what do you describe that change? I think just the comment and what you are asking I think they are kind of related if you are saying that you have technology or intelligence when you actually inform your customers about when they should make the decision I think it's more like knowledge guidance or something I think probably you can also calibrate it and say I want to look at this every five minutes or every five days or something so it feels like you have to still make the same decisions and also in the end I am always wondering how much intelligence is actually in there of course as you all know it's pretty difficult to beat the market on the long run and then if you say you probably couldn't make for a spreadsheet transparent you can do that everyone could easily replicate it so it must be somehow hidden and then I am wondering what strategy would be that is beating the market all along the period whether it's like I think in the early days of the role advisors simply buying ETFs and so if you just can do this by yourself as an investor so you actually saving the transaction costs you would have by investing in a role advisor so of course asking people in finance when I meet them in the category how long do you think before the median job in your field is replaced by a robot right so not the best it's always room for the best but sort of the middle level here so I think that it becomes a question of on the high end self-evolving strategies that happen faster and in the low end you're not supposed to do anything right the more effective you can make doing nothing the better the duty that you do is doing nothing part is a very important thing so the algorithm and role advisor is not just about the investing part obviously we employ a lot of technology and smart people from academia from the industry to refine our models and refining our models is about I mean there are 1500 different index funds available in Europe how do you pick the right ones and do you want to do that yourself every other quarter because the prices are changing all the time there are new players coming into the market do you want to manage your portfolio yourself and the answer of our clients and 95% of the population is no they don't want to do it themselves I managed portfolios of ETFs for my siblings and my parents and it's a lot of work in the end it's not about like you invest once but you have to rebalance things change the tax environment changes you have to adapt and most people don't want to do it often they can't do it because they don't have the expertise or knowledge but most people just can't be bothered taking care of it themselves and they have their periods of motivation where they look into this and then they don't touch the portfolio for years and maybe it's like completely off balance so robot wise much more than investment model it's all like how you get the portfolio if you have access cash how quickly can you deploy it if you are with us and you have whatever you've got a bonus and you have like 5000 euros to invest if you do it yourself you have to invest in 4-5 different ETFs talk about ice in thin tanned pins you have to enter everywhere with us you tap enter the number of 5000 go and it's invested it's just a different experience than doing it yourself with any of your customers do you have a different strategy if they work with you I guess our customers probably the demographic would be similar but the investment is very different and we're part of the product so the most secure and simple product there's no fancy stuff in there so as I mentioned the innovation is really making investment for them as possible to trust I mean our customers are 55 years on average 75% male above average education but they tend to look at details they're not like impulse driven they read the stuff they make astonishingly rational decisions so they're not going for the high interest rate all the time they actually see that the country rating is higher in the deposits if you prepared cross border so they they can be bothered to some extent to go through the features and they're doing it but yet making it as simple as possible is a huge success factor but it's the customer who takes all the decisions where you take the decisions for you in the case of because we invest into the capital but what is somewhat similar similar across the two platforms this is fixed income like deposits and we are in the capital market but what is similar you need to make it as simple as possible for those people who want to do it themselves there are tools out there the innovation happened in brokerage since 50 to 20 years there are brokerage firms out there where you can invest very easily for very low commissions if you want to do it yourself but most people can't and don't want to do it themselves there you need platforms who help them in Reisen's case it's about not opening not having to open the bank accounts with banks all over Europe in some areas you can't even open it cross border yourself but even if you don't want to do it yourself and in our case it's about not making those investment decisions all the time you give us a mandate it's like Uber is your private driver and we are your private investment manager our service previously has only been accessible for very rich people investment management is not a new business but having someone who takes care of your portfolio without you being involved in the past was something where the entry hurdle was at a million dollars and that changed this technology I would say that they want to keep it simple I always wonder if it's really easier than years ago to take financial decisions because there's just so so many options on the table there's crowdfunding there you both two of you we've got the whole range of contacts on the one hand and the other hand so what's your take on that do you think it's easier for the customers I think not at all I mean for us like if you look into particular products for instance if you look into the crowd investing contracts nowadays I think it took us a couple of hours probably to figure out what the share actually is you are actually buying what your participation rights are probably the upper side to understand this financial contract and I think for a regular user or investor of these products it's not at all easier for a simple product like a stock or something that would have been probably a much easier decision because it's much easier to understand in the end and I think for other products that is probably equally valid a little anecdote because we were raised struck by the fact that our products being listed it should remind us what that effect had actually in our inflows and we would have thought our customers are online sadly they go through the details they Google stock but the printed access paper is actually the magazine is actually one of the most important drivers in inflows it's still partly extended out in the graphics of course I think within each side or it's about the platforms to navigate complexity Kickstarter needs to crack navigating the complexity crowdfunding in another platform and platforms are phrasing we need to navigate it in the postage and we do it in our space but one thing and this is really a problem we hear more and more often from our clients is about your overall asset allocation this is an answer we don't give right now and we don't help our clients with how much you go into buying a house here in Munich and how much should be a deposit and how much should be with scalable capital and how much shall I put into a crowdfunding project or whatever so this financial planning hasn't been that automated yet and there are some businesses moving into that direction to have a product agnostic financial planning in a digital way we want to really focus about what we are good in and that's like the investment management part in the liquid capital markets we are not the best we don't have expertise in real estate investing it's just not our expertise financial planning has the complexity that you have to know a little bit about everything the question is how good are you especially about the customers everything plays a role like how many children are there so there was a great survey I read a five US Nobel Prize winners in economics a couple years ago of which three did not properly contribute everything they should be in the United States even though they should do this I think you are overestimating the complexity before and how much the default option was no choice and I think the other thing is a lot of things we are talking about help wealthy individuals or move the barrier down so it used to be really nice to do this but there are still a large number of people who all of this is too complicated and that is I think a future challenge we are talking about investing is so complex and it is getting even more complex every day there is a big need for drawn consumer protection do you think here as a panelist that consumer protection when it comes to those new fintechs is in a good shape do we need more much I would say it is a love and hate relationship so of course our customers are consumers we want to be as transparent and as reliable as possible so we want to comply with any consumer protection laws there are out there on the other side we do see for example data protection agencies who are not aware of what is going on out there so we get a data protection complaint from the Belinda data protection officer that the thing we did so what we did is we sent the pre-filled application form as a PF document her unencrypted email to the customer which is something we need to do by nature of consumer protection laws they had data protection in mind they said it is unencrypted you cannot do it even if the customer consents to it so this shows that they are far away sometimes from what is going on in practice and even once but the legal obligations are in this particular case they took a long test they had a hard time at the beginning to actually embrace all products because it was somehow online Bulgarian banks were somehow involved and it is not entirely clear so they set up a list of criteria which was fulfilled and then they told us there is a subset or an additional set of secret criteria which we didn't fulfill so we said guys this is not how it works either we comply with those criteria and in the end we convinced them as I mentioned it is extremely important and Shetumat has just taken an example again being on there is extremely important so it's not clear and so I had my first chance at really I don't know if there is a German opponent in Russia but I have seen the saw such made in the United States watching the crowdfunding laws because I talked to the SEC on a couple of occasions and it was just interesting because the problem is that there is a natural conflict between letting people do stuff that increases risk even in crowdfunding and the more restricted you put out the less useful these crowd based institutions work so the SEC had a very different set of requirements than congress did and I think the SEC won more than as a result of two years to make the rules I think they were restricted enough that we're not seeing stuff happen now on the other hand could there be a lot more fraud I mean it's hard to imagine that you can you limit losses and allow experimentation becomes the real question and at least I don't know again I don't know German law but in the US there is a accredited investor criteria which is if you earn over a certain amount a year you're just considered to be smart about finances and most things don't apply and you do stupid things but you know so the question is just how do you set up these criteria regulations are definitely needed because exploitation always happens but you know is there a way to limit losses and allow but still allow innovation to happen because limiting all losses means nothing occurs I mean in our space we have to segment regulation in various things like the KYC and anti-money laundering and this applies to all of us and here it's sometimes a bit difficult to kind of reinvent the rules which has been designed for like offline processes with signatures and going to a branch office to bring them to the online world without making it more easy for crime to exploit the rules product itself we actually the regulators have been quite supportive for what we do because they like how how the technology makes the process a clear audit trail for everything it's more standardized like people sitting in front of the screen and going through a survey it's a more neutral place than being in the back room of a bank branch and someone like really pushing you into a specific product like they like it and they like how transparent everything is how they can also audit these things and look about our questions and the answers clients gave and what we actually recommended there's like a clear link between what the customer wants and what we actually offer so in that space they were actually quite supportive but the biggest difficulty is just to the pace of innovation and like the pace of regulation to keep up with that there's also been some kind of regulatory competition if you look at the London regulations they have put a sandbox for FinTechs, do you think that's a good idea? Canada, Germany having applied for because we have we have two subsidiaries one in Germany and one in the UK and they both have run the same business investment management one for the German market UK market and we didn't go for a passport but we really have a license in both markets and that we kicked it off at the same time and even though in Bundesbank they don't talk about FinTechs, sandboxing and like I'm not very present on all the conferences like they were twice as fast in processing our license and giving us a permit to conduct our investment management service in the German market and in the UK hopefully the FCA is not listening okay so there is a competition and some try to run the others but is that a good thing? I think we cannot tell yet because we don't know how the startups performed it when it's a sandbox regulation as compared to other startups but I mean if you think about it who are the startups who are actually moving in there so it's probably these startups who have not enough capital or resources to comply with the regulation who don't want to throw that fast and I'm thinking like whether you don't have a negative selection having a sandbox approach because if you are a fast growing startup who has enough VC capital or whatever I mean they would go right for the real thing and not like have a contract they have to change later on that's also costly and this slows everything down I wouldn't say it's only a positive thing so it could have a positive and negative aspect I would agree to the extent that I think it's a misconception that startups or fintechs are against regulation I think why the opposite is true what we need is fear regulation and so what regulation usually brings about is additional complexity and we need to adjust both of things where startups are very good at so it actually can be a competitive advantage if regulation happens and especially for our in our case a neutral regulatory competition is the right word but our business model naturally so what we do is we take money from German investors and put them into banks in let's say Sweden so in the end the Swedish deposit of the German scheme will have to pay off German investors which they don't like and on the other side it may take money out of the German financial system so both national regulators have a national tendency to not like the product so much but looking at having the overall European picture perspective it actually integrates it creates a European market for the positive products so and that's actually a struggle we sometimes face it's not so much competition amongst regulators but the national protection I would say even when we talk about the problem there's that people who invest in a project online and get their own money most of them are retail clients what if something goes wrong and then the crowd gets angry what happens so the answer is what differentiates between two types reward based where you're not actually investing so that's a set of we'll talk about equity which is more in line with this parallel so it's sort of unclear right now so they push the whole problem out portals are the responsible entities in some cases but if they're doing everything right then responsibility falls to the organization responsible whether or not you can ever claim anything for a small fly by net retail company that fails is an open question how you end up making money in the end from these investments because these are not these are not lending investments but they're equity investments so that company needs to exit which implies a high failure rate so this is the big danger in equity crowdfunding is you're betting on a lottery ticket because it's not a loan where you're going to get some piece of return you've heard about how great startups are you've watched a social network movie you watch whatever you call Shark Tank or Dragon's Den or whatever here and you think I want to do that so failure is part of the game so that becomes the real question is how do you educate people the fact that they're going to fail and then how do you stop how do you filter if we solve the problem and figure out which startups to invest in I wouldn't be here now I'd just be using that system so it's sort of an open question of what do you expect as opposed to these products where it's about limiting downside risk and increasing return making everyone a venture capitalist requires a very different attitude and I don't know if it's a good thing ultimately or not before I come to the audience I know you had a long day already but I'd like to open it up to the public after this round even you already mentioned in your presentation the word democratization and that I think that all to both of your fintechs also take part in that do you open up something for people that couldn't invest in that special area before because as you said before that usually it's what's only open capital markets are only for rich people so I'd like to get that question to you Lars do you think that all the fintech environment helps to democratize financial markets? Absolutely, I think this morning I had a paper on social trading and the word was that everyone can now become a pump manager I think that already tells us like if you are good in that and you don't need any financial education or like any education at all if you're a good person investing in stocks and you build a nice portfolio or ayondo whatever then you're just the person to do that I think that wasn't possible before I would just say again I know what we've said this before but this is a two-party process I like the idea of thinking about the global capital flows as having beneficiaries in terms of recipients of the money as well and I think that's the other question is you're democratizing access not just to the people making the investments but the people receiving them and that there's some value there too because the system wasn't just broken on the investor side or tended to have connections there tended to be some reasons for kickbacks or inside games and that goes away too so there's benefits and moments potentially I'm struggling with the term democratization I mean if we're talking about level playing field I think that's good democracy is kind of a governance structure and my question is isn't even good to have democracy investing does it lead to the deficient decisions or should that decision be led to specialists I'm sure there's data on that so democratization of opportunity rather than democratization of choice so government markets both receivers and givers have been limited to by combination of regulation and size and difficulty totally a few players so democratization of access is reasonable but democratization in terms of I want my fund manager to be like a 12 year old who's kind of hacked together their own fund fund I'm okay with that doing that so I see the first question on the back please say a name and maybe who you're referring to hello my name is Peri Meinhardt I'm from Verdi and I have a question my issue is sustainable development in how far do your product services contribute to sustainable development and for Professor Mollig I would be interested in how far does crowd investing contribute to sustainable development thank you there was like a neon okay so yeah I'll say first so what's interesting is I didn't ask in my survey specifically about sustainable development but I did ask whether their project was contributing to social good and asked them to explain which ones we're still going through to figure out what they're doing but almost 70% of projects gave me a description about how they were contributing to social good so there seems to be active interest in it and again there seems to be some evidence of the projects that invoke these sort of elements do better there's a whole crowdfunding campaign and sites of the things like Kiva which does micro loans and financing very poor so there is there is interest in this not all of it is tied specifically to environment but at least the idea that there is the social investing platform there seems to be a pent up need and crowdfunding seems to be addressing some of that and I'll have more results for you soon as far as the breakdown of how many people use environmental words thoughts, I'm going to run those numbers and see what I can come up with so thank you for that quick response from my side so economic sustainability I think it's pretty clear now there's this case we build a European market try to help build a European market for our deposits and we help give away with market barriers so you see that European banks so fans that are active in European countries they charge for trying to deposit so if it's one bank get there segregating the markets so bringing down the barriers on cross-border I think is a good thing overall and logically it's good because you don't have to travel to Spain to open up a positive Spain ok Raisin is building Europe, what is Scallery is doing? Scallery is helping more investors to become better and smarter investors what we don't do just to directly also answer the question is about really reducing the universe we can invest in so there are a lot of funds out there who use, who run on that theme of sustainable and everything but it's very difficult to construct a global portfolio which is like really ticking the sustainable box everywhere it just depends on how much you look through, if you invest in a deposit at Raisin the deposit itself is not attached to any unsustainable project but you don't know where the bank which takes the deposit actually then gives the money to maybe they finance a project which is not sustainable and it's a bit similar in what we invest in we invest in capital markets and in the S&P 500 index there might be some companies in there you don't like, depending on the kind of filters you have for sustainability and it's not something we tackle. Any other questions from the audience? A very long day, when did you start? Actually I have two questions the first question relates to the regulatory setup from the University of Berlin so my first question relates to the regulatory sandbox and I would like to ask Florian and Daniel I think when we want to make a judgement whether we want this or not we should look at it not only from the regulated perspective but also from the regulators perspective and in that sense a regulatory sandbox might be able to solve an information problem because if I look at a market in a newly developing market from a regulators perspective if I want to make good regulation, I need information do you think that the regulatory sandbox might be a way to provide this information to the regulator? And the second question goes to the whole panel I was wondering we are talking about financial decision making and the internet and we were talking about all these disruptions and everything and I mean the internet exists not only it has been existing for five years but for 20 or 30 years so why this difference in the last five years? Is it a technological advance or is it something else? So on the regulatory sandbox I see a point it's important that the regulator is up to speed on what's happening so if the regulatory sandbox is set up in a way that it allows you to communicate or engage with the regulator quite early in the process and get some feedback from them like both Bachel and FCA are doing that maybe not in a really framed way yet but they already do that and if the sandbox is about that I think it's a good thing if the sandboxes reside the playing field is not level anymore and you have some players which operate on a lighter regulation than others but it's not good for the structure of the capital market so eventually once you are live with your product you have to play by the rules and everyone should have the same rules I totally agree that information flow goes both ways and for us it was a problem for a long time now it has improved that we don't have direct access for example to the German regulator because we as a deposit broker which is a not regulated activity in Germany we are not supervised by Barthens so they wouldn't even talk to us and it would be extremely helpful that they are used on certain things that are regulated that we outsource to other partners but they are admitted to be part of our business model so that has changed in this new opening up of Barthens to FinTechs it's not yet a sandbox but it's definitely an improvement and I personally for our business model what would be a great would be a pangor peen sandbox it's not regulated in Austria we need a banking license to do our business the same in Spain we need some intermediary licenses in another country so it's totally wild regulation across EU although the nature of the business itself is pretty simple it's a deposit broker so it would be an extremely efficient thing to have also a pan-European kind of sandboxing scheme where information flows go to the regulator and back the question was what has changed in the last 5 years would you like to start with that Mr? regulation? no regulation in the internet the internet was there in the 90s but we didn't see scale of capital or these services so is it really technological advance or is it something else as well? so I think so to give you a sense of I think that the startup environment is easier to do more online, more api's more approaches it's easier to get an idea out there I had students come up with an idea in my class for various reasons US college loans have fairly high interest rates and you can't banks are sort of unable technically to discriminate based on the quality of where you're getting your degree from so the chance of default from Wharton is near zero as opposed to other degrees where there might be higher chances of defaults or Harvard Medical School or something else so they realized all these people had old loans and they just offered refinancing over the internet with crowd sourced cash going in and they were able to raise $100 million within 4 months starting this venture in order to do this refinancing so I think it becomes a snowball effect where everyone is now because there's huge margin available to big banks that you can steal from it's cheap to do and the regulations have been pushed in that direction and I think you're just going to see this gather think about the presentation on the quote from when it was Max Aster on how it got cheaper to start up and multiply those numbers by 100 to do it like in banking in Switzerland the minimum capital for banks is 10 million Swiss francs and for most of the businesses we do you need that license and now with the technology and regulations lighting up a bit you are able to ramp up a fintech and a fraction of a price in the price as far as I would say it's technological advances that it sounds silly but user interfaces are much, much simpler and my parents can now use an iPad which was not possible like 5 years ago it would touch a few of that that's an important stuff and the second part is also regulatory again so passporting, KYC, guidelines, concepts all these kind of things just came in in 2013 or so so before that it was just not possible from regulatory perspective I think also there's also this book by Thomas Friedman what has emerged is all the steroids and what he means by that is you have now smartphones and tablets and stuff like that and also I mean Facebook only emerged around the turn of the century so without that I think it wasn't simply possible to have this kind of user interaction constantly playing with your smartphone and going back to your PC with a big box or something and I think it was just not that much hard to do these things that you can do now so I think it was just natural and that question leads to another one which is what does that mean that changed me for the whole financial world what would be your take on what does investing look like in 10 years from now starting what should bank exist in 10 years I think big banks are going to be in trouble because I think what you're seeing so the policy the thing has been what Sarge got very good at doing is looking for places where there's margin and then they can take they can give away 80% of the margin and still be hugely profitable and finance is full of huge margin businesses that you can steal away and there's so much I always complain when people give me startup plans where they assume they have like 1% of the market they just do it half percent of the first year 1% of the second year, third year but in banking if you have one tenth of 100% there is so much money to sustain a startup company and so I think that you're going to see challenges and I think the large banks are not built for them, not in your product but these products that you see it just doesn't make sense there's no product on your scale versus being on the internet so what happens I think you're going to see huge challenges and you're already seeing salaries drop in these spaces my students don't go in and the MBAs they're not going into any of the more retail business finances again, even edge funds you're going to see this continue to drop I think I think absolutely, I think there's no competitive advantage universal banks have each segment of a bank can be done much more efficient much more scale I think the only thing that commercial banks still have is they have a banking license I think even there like there are specialized providers who can only provide the banking license much better technological services to a fintech company I think these banks will survive in the end and I think Deutsche Bank won't exist in 10 years anymore Are you ok with the role of the hero as fintech? I think it's definitely true that the role of banks will diminish at the same time so there will be disintermediation of the value chain product providers and distribution partners will not be the same there will be platforms that will integrate third party products but there will also be a network in fact and we see that in our business very clearly so we're the largest and we get the new banks because we're the largest and we get the customers so it's a very network effect in that new environment that might lead to concentration again I think and I think another thing that was mentioned many times today is we all have an overflow of information we have attention deficit key success factor will be to keep it simple and as user friendly as possible to make financial decisions within the second to the second and the provider who does that best I think will prevail well I would like to come back to the quarter introduced you with Kichwas that he wants to become big so if fintechs one day are big will they have the same problems like the big banks today it's I think a challenge for every it's a good challenge for every successful startup to stay a startup as long as possible and it's about it's about the DNA of your team it's about how modular your technology is like are you already getting legacy from day one and are you willing to reinvent yourself on an ongoing basis and really cannibalize existing business you might have that's a challenge the bigger you get the more you have it and at some point new startups really but that's far away and I think there is as you said like there's a huge opportunity out there there's so much marching out there which was a piece of quote right but your marching is my opportunity this kind of applies for everyone here and yeah that's the challenge are there any questions left from you no not yet so then I still have one single question to Lars who's the only one who's not inside one of the fintech spheres in which one would you invest your own money is it palatable or reasonable what would you pick like as the Nobel Prize winner I would just invest my pension money which maybe is a disaster so thank you very much and thanks for your attention