 I welcome everybody to our final issue briefing of the day. Now we've had so many requests for media interviews with the gentleman next to me that we've taken a practical pragmatic route to schedule the media sessions, and Mr Melnsepe is made available for a certain amount of time to answer questions. I think we'll take it as anarchically and free moving and fluidly as it happens. mae'n garfynio angen. Mi'n credu, mynd i am rhai cael eich cyfrinddon, mae'n rai'n sicr o ddweud y tu'r cishol. Mae'r ffordd i gael ar y cael ei trefyn a'r ffordd o'r Cyfrinddon Pwyllgrifedig yn iawn Ielunol. Bydd wedi'u cyfrinddon a'i gweithio fawr i'r handau ond mae'r ffordd i gael ar y cyfrinddon ar eu rai'uiseun. Rwy'r maen i'r rai'n i'r handau. Chorom o'u chyfawr o'r Дauch chi cael eich gyfrinddon. Yr hyn yw'r persephe is leaving after the questions run out so as I get your hands on the IK. Lady Christians at the front, just a reminder to your name when you get a microphone. Can we have a microphone here please? OK. Maybe at the same time. Why don't you just shout at the chair, Christian? I know you've got a strong voice. But also the brightest spots in terms of economic growth? Well Africa in many fundamental respects is no different from many other continents Byddw i'n ddigon ni'n ochr ar ei hwn i'r cwaith, rwy'n ddigon ni'n rwy'n gynllun o'r fwyntio ar yr enwyddiadol iddo. mae'n ddigon ni'n gwybod i'r gwaith gyda'r cyfewnfeydd yma ychydig o'i agorododau at gwrddol a'n chi gwell â'r fawr. Felly, mae'r ffordd rwy'n ddweud y gallwn fforddio y cyfnod o'r gweithio. Felly, mae'r ffordd ffordd ei mwyn ffordd i'w gwisio allwch yn ddiwedd, a'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfrannu. Fy fffordd o'r cyfnod o'r cyfrannu, ac mae'n rhaid i'n cael ei wneud. Wrth gwrs, ychydig yw'r rhaid i'r India. Mae'r rhannu gwrs yn ddawf yng Nghymru. Mae yw'r rhannu gwrs yn ddraethau. Mae'r rhannu amser o'r amser o'r rhaid i'r modi. Mae'r rhannu ar y cyflogion o'r prif sefydliadau yn y teimlo i gael y cyflogion ffyrdd o'r cyfrifredig oherwydd yna'r cyfrifredig yn gyflawn i wneud i gael eu hwnnw. Y Brzell yng Nghymru yn gweithio. ac yn ddechrau, ac mae'n rhan fydd yma iawn. Ond mae'n cael ei ddweud o'r ffasgau hynny. Byddwn ddod i'n meddwl, mae'n cyfnod o'n cyfrifiadau a gwahanol, mae'n cyfrifiadau a'n cyfrifiadau, mae'n cyfrifiadau a'r cyfrifiadau yn cael ei ddodolol o'r cyfrifiadau a'r cyfrifiadau, nid oedd wedi'u cyfrifiadau. Brite spots? Brite spots, I think one of the brightest spots is the passion I see amongst young Africans, both entrepreneurs and, I mean in this country I see young black and white South Africans which makes me very, very proud. We've got challenges in this country, but these young black and white South Africans who've been to school together. And I mean after 25 years, Claes was talking about 25 years after Mandela went to Davos, young black and white South Africans who don't know what it means to be, to have different colours and are so excited and passionate about their future and their contribution to their growth long term. That makes me very, very proud. But of course we've got lots of work to do in this country in many areas, but I'm confident we'll deal with those things. Okay, just from the back first and then following on to the judgment in front of you. Mr Mwtsepe, it's Angelo Coppola from China Central Television. Regulatory certainty is one of the key issues that drive economies. And in South Africa at the moment we're having this bit of an impasse around the black economic empowerment bill and the mining sector. Your view on what should be done to make that bill go through so that everybody can actually get on with business. I mean I had a CNN interview earlier and sometimes that was one of the key issues at last. Let me rather answer it in terms of principles. Principle number one is definitely we need regulatory certainty and also a regulatory environment that's good for business, there's no doubt about it. Principle number two is if you look at what has happened in many African countries, when colonialism came to an end there was a new black elite in government. They were the exclusive beneficiaries of economic growth of development. Their families did very well. The majority of the population either went backwards or were not beneficiaries and did not participate in the growth and development. That is a recipe for long-term political and social instability. And I always say if all of the people in South Africa were green, yellow, forget about any differences in colour, but only those who surnames are mwtsepe grow and benefit from the economy. Recipe for long-term instability. So the thinking behind the need to ensure that there's meaningful black participation in the economy. We do need a middle class. This country needs a middle class of black and white people and all of our people. The people who've got a stake in the future of this economy. So at the heart of black economic empowerment was supposed to be because most of the transactions we did on the mining side were many, many years before empowerment was established. But Farsid was about a different philosophy. My grandfather was an entrepreneur. My father was an entrepreneur. I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs and what we knew was your colour is irrelevant in terms of your competitiveness and your efficiency and your innovation and the results you deliver to shareholders. So the issue of criteria of performance of excellence for us were always important. I would like to see more focus on entrepreneurship, more focus on competitiveness of business overall. There will be black business people who will need help. I quickly want to tell you about we opened the mine in one of the provinces. We currently employ about 5,000 people there. 90% we open a platinum mine. 90% unemployment rate amongst the inhabitants where the mine is. We had to build entrepreneurs from scratch. Teach them what it means to buy at a certain price, sell at a higher price, be competitive. We had to hold their hands. One of the things that disappoints me about South African entrepreneurship is, and again, I was so amazed in another session I went to. Chatham House rules don't apply so I can tell you. One of the top Chinese, he works for the government of China but he's basically responsible for China in Africa and he said, you cannot underestimate the importance of the market. I was critical, critical, critical, critical. Personally, when we opened, at the heart of entrepreneurship, of black economic empowerment, was the need to get blacks to become stakeholders in the economy. Broad-based economic empowerment has a positive in terms of, you've got to bring in new people as many as possible so that it's not the same faces even though how excellent they may be. We've got to spread opportunities. But the disadvantage of that is it doesn't allow for capital accumulation. If you look at the Africaners in this country, and I don't want this to be about black economic empowerment in South Africa. If you've got further questions, I'll hang around and deal with it. One of the excellent things the African business community did in this country is the great successful African entrepreneurs recognized their growth and success and the growth and success of their families to be inextricably intertwined with the growth and success of the communities they came from. We have to do the same in South Africa. The last thing I want to say, I came from the giving pledge this morning. That's partly why I was late. You never stop learning to see how the giving pledge that was started by Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. You never stop learning by seeing how some of the most successful families in the world recognize that they've got a duty in relation to philanthropy and create a future for all. Try and help those who are less fortunate. The last point, we have no future in this country. Forget about black, white, forget about empowerment. We have no future in South Africa if we don't create opportunities for as many of our people as possible. They've got to have a future and a stake. We will have politically... But we've got to do the right things. Corruption and the sort of jobs for pals or ex-benefits because you are politically connected. You can't build an economy based on that. You've got the microphone ready. A couple of business leaders in South Africa have spoken about the various departments that have a stake in the economy not working in a more cohesive way. Do you agree with that kind of thinking that South African departments focused on the economy could work with a more single message to outside investors as well as to inside investors? I'll give you a quick answer. When I was president of business in the country and one of the things that was important, continuously important is to bring black and white business together because business was divided historically along racial lines. One of the most important things is when there are things in government that are inefficient, ineffective, you want to change. I thought it was primarily South African but my friends all over the world say it's the same. You tend to be so much more effective when you close the doors and if you need to shout and scream at them you do that. But if you go public and consistently point out their weaknesses you put them on the spot, they start becoming defensive and they feel the need at times to try and protect and explain and justify what they themselves recognize as weaknesses. I've got no doubt historically I never wanted to... We come from an entrepreneurial culture and we focus on our businesses and I never used to engage government on the business side. I'm not talking about the policy side because what we had to do to get government to recognize that we live in a globally competitive world and South Africa has to be globally competitive to attract investment and do the good things for our people we need to. But on the family philanthropy side and the businesses that we are doing and of course the tax issues, we are trying to get as many women, youth and black business people to become entrepreneurs and to run businesses and we see areas in government where they can be more effective and we engage them. I mean I made a remark on Escom in terms and it was a huge issue but I was expressing an opinion which is correct. So overall there's always room for government to improve and there's always areas where we should keep identifying how they can do better but I just found that when I grabbed the minister closer door and tell him this is a lot of our business people think we can do better. Let's get on with it. I find that things just get done so much more quickly and so much more effectively. Rather than if he reads in the paper I tell him what a lousy job he's doing. Where to start? Gentleman there, the third row you had your hand up first and then we'll go to you sir and then we'll go to you. Then we'll move over to this side of the room. Try and keep your questions short and brief. My name is Christian Butch, Africa correspondent of D-Wale, the German publication. Many, quite a number of very very successful African business people have gone into politics and here in South Africa, Tokyo, Sexwale, Syria, Ramaphosa. I mean you care a lot about the people quite obviously with your foundation, with your personal background. Is there anything that you would consider maybe you could make an even bigger change on the political level? Let me tell you know you need people who I think we could make a greater contribution as a family and with all humility I think I could most probably make an even more significant contribution by keep trying to bring people together and also keep saying the things that are politically inappropriate, incorrect and because you know once you take, once you run, once you get into politics you've got to look at a constituency and at times get that constituency to keep voting for you and what South Africa needs is, I mean the excitement of this country is the future of all our people. I mean it's, you know, we've got an incredible wealth of talent and of people but we have to focus on the poor. We have to focus on the poor. But if my name is Jan van der Merve or Sippor Chaminio I've got to believe that this is the best place to live in the country. Not because some politicians say that, they don't even care what the politicians say but because of my experiences and what I see on a day to day basis. Okay, moving on. Gentleman there, gentlemen there. Then we'll go through this side. I'm not forgetting you. Chris Malane at Bloomberg News. I'd be interested to hear your sort of opinion and insight as to the opportunity in Ethiopia for businessmen and as a side question South Africa seems to be getting a bit of a kicking in this whole FIFA situation. I was wondering if you had any words of support of defence for your country. About FIFA. Well, whatever you fancy. You know, I'll tell you. They asked me, one of my wonderful ladies asked me the question and I learned many, many years ago. I used to, I was taught many years ago don't express an opinion until you know the facts. And with the greatest amount of respect I am so, I've been travelling for the last few weeks I'm so in the dark on the FIFA issue. But again, and I sort of fumbled my way in trying to express an opinion. And I just thought, you know, the critical issue is that and she was telling me about Mandela, excellent. But the critical issue is that we have to be seen as a country and let me say, I have total confidence that, and you have to start on the basis that everybody is innocent until proven guilty. So you've got to start on the basis that South Africa should have done all the right things. And that's what I have confidence in and that's what I expect. And as a starting point and then she said to me, of course the facts show something else. I don't know what the facts are. But we have to be seen to be a country that adheres to global best practices and at no stage get involved in behaviour that can be interpreted as improper behaviour and conduct. And let me overemphasise. I start on the basis that we will, you know, that we behaved in a proper way that we are innocent until proven guilty. What was your first question? Ethiopia. No, again, you know, many of the African countries that were not competitive in terms of attracting investment are now exceedingly competitive. So, you know, we don't ever have a right to South Africa to investment that other countries do not have. I mean, you know, we all have to compete. So Mozambique is doing well. Botswana has always done well. Ethiopia is an exciting destination. Ghana has always done very well. Kenya. So, you know, some companies are asking themselves where should I open my head office? Is it South Africa or is it Kenya? And I know a number of companies, a number of really exciting great companies that have chosen Kenya above South Africa. So we've got to pull up our socks and give them a reason to come here rather than elsewhere. Hi, Lee Middleton from Courts Africa. There's been a lot of talk about leapfrogging and that being the answer for Africa, for the continent going forward. So I just want to ask you what concrete things the private sector should be doing to catalyze innovation and technology and this dream of leapfrogging. And then on that as well, what are the challenges to leapfrogging? I'll say this, you know, this country has got exceptional business people and CEOs and a private sector. And I can assure you the issue of leapfrogging is something that has been looked at across the board. Some of the greatest investors on the continent are South African-based companies. And technology has an incredible opportunity in terms of Africa not having to go through the processes of developing the technology that many countries, you know, the 5, 7, 10-year period of developing those technologies. PESA, I mean, I'm excited. I was briefed a few weeks ago that the money that gets transferred through PESA in Kenya, much, much bigger, much more significant than the money that gets exchanged through the banks. Exciting. 700 million cell phones in Africa, double the size of the American population. Exciting. As we speak, there's technology being developed in certain areas. PESA leads the world in terms of mobile, you know, money transfers. Jasmine here, Lady A, at the back afterwards. My name is Sami Isilampah. I'm a correspondent for Finnish newspaper, Helsing Insanomat. The mining industry in South Africa has, over the course of the history, created enormous wealth to a relatively small number of people. Now at this forum today, there's been a lot of talk about the inclusiveness of the growth. So what should and could be done in mining industry to make it benefit a larger number of people in this country? Very good question. Let me give you an example. I grew up in a place outside Pretoria, and my family had a grocery store and a bottle store and a beer hall, because it's time. To your question of inclusive growth, I saw my parents pay for the school fees of children in the village who do various other things that reflected their recognition that they had no future if the people in that community didn't succeed or grow. I mean, these things happen subconsciously. Those of us who are in the mining industry, both in terms of what we do, but also in terms of the experiences of our workforce. I mean, I can say one thing, but I guess it's more important that the workers who work for us experience. We've got a lot of work to do. At some stage, the whole industry needs a fundamental review. I've got no doubt about it. And part of that fundamental review and a fundamental new dispensation at the heart of it must be what you're calling inclusive growth and shared growth. But what I would refer to as stakeholder benefits, stakeholder engagement, a deep commitment in realising that I've got a duty to all shareholders, I also have a fundamental duty to the shareholders who are the people who give us the money to go and open these businesses. If my shareholders who sit in London, New York or wherever, don't think that the mining industry is a good place to invest and will give them competitive returns over an extended period of time, I do not have a mining industry. So I can guarantee you there's a huge commitment on the companies that I'm associated with. And I know that the mining industry as a whole is committed to engaging in a manner that creates a future that is good for all its stakeholders. Thank you. I'm Sasha Planting from MoneyWeb. Staying with the mining industry, we tend to talk of it as a sunset industry. Can you share some thoughts on how we can turn it back into a sunrise industry, how we can attract investment, how we can encourage exploration? Very, very important question. Again, we are not the only country that has got a monopoly in relation to the minerals that the world wants. I mean, there are many countries in Africa and there are many countries in other parts of the world, in South America as well as... I mean, we've got a copper, gold mining, Papua New Guinea world class. We employ many, many people there. I mean, the deposit is exceptional. We've got a copper mine in Zambio. There's a challenge in relation to the global price of copper. But I remain optimistic about the future of the mining industry. There are challenges. There are challenges about our engagement with labour. We have to re-engage with labour. I admire the way the German system has managed to really involve labour as a partner in the growth of the businesses. And that's partly why German industry worldwide is really outstanding. I think the UK is also... I mean, the good progress has been made there. But the commodities industry is a long-term industry. There will be times when right now things are difficult. We think for us it creates opportunities in terms of acquisitions and partnerships. But you do have to take a long-term view. But at the heart of this new dispensation, it has to be government, labour, and us have to come together and have a re-look in terms of how we can reposition, restructure this industry for the benefit of all stakeholders. OK, just one here. I think maybe try one more question after that and then we have to close. You know, he comes from a newspaper in the townships. If I don't answer, they won't allow me in that township. OK. Very good evening, Mr Motsipae. My name is Stuart Lisulo, senior business reporter with the Post Newspapers based in... For the Post. Yes, based in Lusaka, Zambia. My question basically centres on the mineral royalty taxes, which was a hugely, hugely controversial issue in Zambia. They were raised to 20% for opencast mines and reduced back to 9%, which is still considerably higher than the regional average. So the question to put it very straight forward is, can Zambia, as a mining investment destination, still remain competitive amid that high tax rate? Not to mention, of course, the hike in low-sulfur gas, diesel, and electricity charges as well. It's very... You know, let's take Zambia and look at Chile and then I'll come back to Zambia. Chile has done very well. I mean, I know the CEOs of some of the largest copper companies in Chile. And there are times when the price of copper went up and the industry did well. And sometimes regulators only remember when the price and the governments keep in mind or remember the time when things were good, when the prices were good when profits were made. And usually those good years are preceded by years of many, many years of difficulty. I've had engagements with various people in Zambia. I have no doubt that there's a commitment to try and work out a dispensation in Zambia that's good for the country, good for the citizens and good for the mining industry. And sometimes we need to walk a path and find each other. But I'm very optimistic about Zambia. Final question, sir. Microphone coming away. Mr Mzipi. I just want to find out what are your thoughts on this? Can you give your name please in your paper? Mpo from SOE 10. Thank you. SOE 10 is where Mandela used to live, so it's complicated. I just want to find out what are your thoughts on the once-empowered, always-empowered principle? That's in court right now. And at the same time, I've never heard your views on e-toils. You know, small businesses are always complaining, basically complaining to Xerco that their views are not taken into account when coming up with the new decision to implement, basically with this new decision. So I just want to find out what are your thoughts on that? The next question is, what are your thoughts on my Melody Sundowns? And I'll tell you, my Melody Sundowns loses us all the time. No, but I mean, the first question was once-empowered, always-empowered. You know, two issues. There are sensitive discussions underway. And I can tell you, we can spend the whole day. You know, as I said, sometimes you don't have time to, because it is a complex issue. You can't deal with it within two, three minutes. But the three things that are key is, when you've got, in terms of the dispensation, the black economic empowerment dispensation, I always would like to see the black shareholders continue to be shareholders after the sunset period. Because at the heart of empowerment has to be to give those who in the past didn't have a stake, give them a stake. Of course, in a manner that's appropriate, that's in the interests of the country and in the interests of all stakeholders. Now, we have created many, many companies and have involved, I mean, literally thousands of shareholders. And then you find a woman who comes to you and says, you know, Patrice, I'm a domestic. I used to earn 2,000 rents a month. And you've given me half a million rent. I mean, she says this with tears in eyes. That's beautiful. That's good. And then you find, and we've got hundreds of those. And then you find a teacher who, I mean, they never came to any meetings, because this is the broad base where we've got literally thousands of people. Never came to any meeting. And then five years down the line tells you, listen, I've been checking my shares. I've got 500,000 rents there, or even 800,000, which is wonderful. My child is being kicked out of school or my house is being repossessed. And I've got this money. I need the money. So you can't say to that woman or that father, please don't sell your shares because I want you to remain and have a stake in the economy. So we knew many, many years ago when this whole empowerment process was started that there will be incidents where the market, the behaviour and conduct of the market in such a fundamental respect may be out of line with what we are trying to do to help our people. We'll talk and learn. But as I said, these women who, hundreds of them used to earn 2,000 and they've got half a million, that's part of the broad base. That's very good. Do you want to answer the question on it also? We are involved, and I don't want to be devil the issue because it may have an impact. When you express an opinion publicly on a matter, it has an impact on your ability to... I'm not talking about itals, I'm talking about other issues. It has an impact on your ability at times to persuade parties where you may have different views. Because the one party says, you clearly said a view this contrary to what my stance is and I'm less likely to be persuaded by you. Safe to say at all times, and that's why I'll be a disastrous politician. The one thing my father taught me is that the customer is always right. And I would imagine the voters are always right as well in terms of expressing opinions in terms of what they think is good and not so good for themselves. Thank you. Thank you very much. Over time, so we must close this session now. I'd like to thank Mr Moseby for joining us. Thank you all. Thank you so much for watching online.