 Hi, I'm Jay Fidel. It's the 230 block today, and we have a very special show. We are honored to have Mary Elena in copier, who is the executive director of the National Immigration Law Center in Washington and LA. She joins us here in between a number of appearances that she's making elsewhere in the state and the legal community. Hi, Mary Elena. Hi, Jay. It's so great to be here, and thank you so much for the invitation. Two things occurred to me. One is the Ben Foren statement to his family every day. He was the prosecutor in the Nuremberg trials, one of the prosecutors. He said to his family, what have you done to improve the world today? And you're doing that. We should all do that. Second thing is the Emma Lazarus poem. Give me, I can repeat part of it, but I don't have time to repeat all of it. Give me your tired, huddled masses yearning to breathe free, which affects us all Absolutely. Really, because we're all immigrants, and we should all care about, well, everyone, really. You're doing that, so I envy you, your job. Thank you. Thank you. It's a great honor to do this work, seriously. I think when you mentioned Ben Foren's comments to his children and his family, I remember my father. My father, we immigrated from Colombia. He was recruited to work as a textile factory worker in Rhode Island at the time that there were textile mills there. And the youngest of 10, we immigrated in the 1970s, and both my mother and my father were so clear that they had made personal sacrifices so that we would have a better life, better opportunities in this country, just like millions of immigrants and refugees have. And they also were very clear that as immigrants to this nation, we had a responsibility to leave this country a better place than we found it. Yeah. So I definitely relate that. I'm hoping those who might have helped you coming forward. Absolutely. I'm actually a director. You have oversight of the entire operation nationally of the National Immigration Law Center. That must be a terrific job. Can you tell us what the National Immigration Law Center does? Yeah. So we are working to ensure that today's immigrants, especially those that are low income immigrants and more vulnerable, have the same opportunities that previous generations of immigrants and refugees have, so that they have the tools and the resources to thrive, to be their best, to support their families, to realize their dreams and to contribute to this country, and again, making this country a better place. They're part of this country. They are this country. We are all. That's right. That's right. Yep. Yep. I get a little emotional. Sorry. Completely understandable. This is a fight for the soul of our nation, Jay. I mean, this is a defining issue of our times and what we are experiencing in this country at this moment, and in fact, in a lot of parts around the world, will dictate the future of our nation. Yes. It is happening now, too. Yeah. You know, sometimes we think, oh, this is a process that's not going to have an effect on us until later, but no, it's having an effect on our moral suasion right now. That's right. So let's talk about some of the issues that are happening. I think it's the ones that come to mind first, and this is not because it's the most important, but because it is most recent. Is this whole affair with the change in the census questions to add a question about whether the individual being interviewed is a citizen of the United States? Can you talk about that? Yeah. So this inclusion of the census question, citizenship question into the census is deeply, deeply troubling for all of us, right? I think as you said, this is one of those issues especially that impacts everybody in a state like Hawaii has so much at risk because if every single person in this state and in every state across the country is not counted, then you're not going to get the federal dollars that you deserve and that you're not going to be able to have the resources necessary to provide services to all of the residents of the state. And the inclusion of this citizenship question simply is pernicious. Yeah, another example of an administration that is trying to instill fear in immigrant communities and to have that undercounting at the end of the day. It's about political power. It states and have the at risk of losing members of Congress because of that count. And so I think the Trump administration is trying to change the entire structure of our country, of our democracy. It's engaging in changes in the law that would result in disenfranchising voters as well. Like voter suppression. Absolutely. It's voter suppression. It's completely related to voter suppression, yes. And the troubling part about it is that it will have an economic effect on various states and various groups. It will skew the distribution of your tax money. Absolutely. Maybe to the wrong people or at least not an equal... It won't be equitable. It won't be based on the number of people with that. What the Constitution asks for is that every person, it doesn't say every person based on when they came to the country or their citizenship status is like every person should be counted. And that has been the case for several hundred years. And here we are now trying to undercount intentionally. Affirmatively trying to undercount. We're trying to do that. In my view, we're trying to do that to A, limit voters. B, skew the money. And C, keep people out. Scare them and deprive them of a reasonable life. It's one of many things this administration is doing. It's, may I say, it's racist, isn't it? Yes, I mean, this administration is implementing many policies and changes in the law that are coming from people that identify as white supremacists and white nationalists. I mean, Steve Bannon, Steve Miller, make no... They're unequivocally in support of a white nationalist government and society. And they are engaging in policymaking to that end to ensure that people like me, people like my family, my loved ones are either excluded or ultimately feel so disenfranchised that we leave affirmatively. But we're not going to leave because this is our nation, right? This is our country that I've been here for 40 plus years now. And this is home as it is home to so many other immigrants. And we're going to fight for this nation. And we believe that we have not only a right but a responsibility to make sure that we actually get our country back on the right path. Regrettably, I think the fight on the immigration, rather the citizenship question and the consensus form may be over in the sense that we've already had a tipping of the hand by Kavanaugh and Gorsuch in the oral argument a couple of days ago. So that's a problem that's probably going to go the wrong way, don't you think? Well, it's hard to say. Honestly, as a lawyer, Jay will never try to predict how judges are going to rule. Good for you. Absolutely. I've been surprised. And I think I was sharing before the show my first experience was with a very conservative senior white male straight judge who ruled in my favor on behalf of my first client and actually his decision set the legal precedent for the right of undocumented workers to not be retaliated against by their employers. So I was surprised. We should hold that lesson. Yes, I will always withhold judgment. And then the other thing is we've seen under this administration in the last couple of years that the courts have served as a really important check and balance against this administration. And so that both Republican appointed and democratically appointed judges are ruling against the administration. And that's also a good sign. That's a good sign of a healthy democracy. Yes. That at the end of the day it should be based on the Constitution, not on what party you are in. Yes, but would not you prefer a reform of the immigration laws? Absolutely. A modernization in Congress and Congress has been neutered. Absolutely. And at a better time we would have Congress look into this and have hearings and talk to people and learn the fabric of our society and reflect it in a modern immigration code. Absolutely. And in fact, Jay, I think one of the concerns that I have is that at a time when our democracy is under attack, Congress has not been doing its job. They are the legislative chamber that is supposed to be holding the executive. It's that check and balance that the courts provide, that the legislature provides, and the executive, Congress hasn't been doing their job. Now on the House side we are seeing with a democratic majority once again they're doing their oversight job, which is critical. And so if the Supreme Court were to rule and say that the citizenship question is allowed, then once again we're going to be relying on Congress to try to repeal that. They can change it in no time. They could, they could. So it's going to be up to we the people to see if we can get them to do the right thing. Well, you can only, and if they don't do it, then there's always the next election to hold their feet to the fire. That's right, which is just a little bit over a year away. So, you know, this all brings to mind, you know, the issue in the wings is always the border these days and the wall and all the very totally bizarre, mean, evil things that are happening on the border. Can you talk about, you know, what is happening from a legal point of view and what the National Immigration Law Center can and should and is doing about it? Sure. So a couple of things. I think the border and particularly this really painful heart-wrenching images that we keep on seeing about mothers and fathers having their children ripped apart, physically, literally. I think of Jose Antonio, who is a man who had his three-year-old son physically ripped apart from his arms and separated. The father and the child were sent to different jails. The father was in jail for several weeks, not knowing what had happened to his child, if his child was even alive, he ended up committing suicide, just the anguish of not knowing and feeling like he had failed his son. So what's happening is not only unconstitutional, but it is immoral. It is immoral and this nation, like, our history will judge this administration for what it is doing and the long-term psychological trauma that is being inflicted on these children who are being ripped apart from their families. Fortunately, again, the courts have really helped stop a lot of this. There are a number of lawsuits that have been filed. We have a lawsuit against the Border Patrol that actually predates this administration in the Tucson sector, which has to do with the detention conditions at that particular border crossing. We continue that litigation. So the litigation is one angle, but the administration every single day is trying new policy changes. So just recently, the new Attorney General Barr announced that a policy change where now they will be indefinitely detaining any families that come together, they will keep the family together, but they will stay in jail until a final decision is made about their asylum claims, because, again, this is an administration that is blocking people from the ability to seek safety in our nation and to apply for asylum, which they're able to do legally under both domestic laws and international laws. So the fights are going to continue in the courts. They'll continue in Congress. There are a number of bills introduced, but to be honest today, I think we'll continue seeing the same thing. We don't. This is not an administration that is backing down. They will continue engaging in unconstitutional actions. They will continue engaging in cruel and inhumane actions until the voters vote them out. Give me your tired, huddled masses. Yearning to breathe free. We have departed from all of that. We are mean. We are immoral. And you are the barrier. You're somebody who's doing something about it. So one of the cases we talked about before the show started was about benefits, government benefits, of people who are in this country legally. You have no problem with their papers. They're entitled. But the government is acting against them, too. Talk about it. So one of the things that's really interesting about the immigration debate in the country is that so much of it is supposedly about undocumented immigrants, people who are here without authorization, or people who are arriving at the border to seek asylum. The fact is that at the core of the strategy of this administration is to radically change our legal immigration system. So this administration has done a number of things. One is it has terminated programs like DACA for immigrant youth. So these are immigrant youth who have been here since they were children, who had temporary protection from deportation that we were able to obtain through the Obama administration. It has also terminated temporary protective status for a range of immigrants from certain countries who also had protection. All of them are now at risk of greater deportation because the administration is trying to make them unlawful. The last thing, and this is the one that will have the greatest impact of it. This is my personal favorite, this one. This is so outrageous. And this is the one that would have the greatest impact out of all of the immigration proposals is that the Trump administration is trying to change the legal immigration system. They're literally trying to do an end run around Congress by saying that if you are lawfully present and you are currently under law entitled to access certain programs like nutrition assistance, health care, housing, and other enumerated benefits, if you use those benefits, you could actually be denied the ability to remain here permanently and get a green card. And that means that families are foregoing critical medical care, nutrition assistance, other supportive services that they need just to thrive, to be just the basic needs of their family because they're afraid that they're going to be separated. They're afraid that they will be denied a green card when they're up for that green card. And where the estimate is 26 million people will be directly or indirectly impacted by this if it becomes law. And we've learned just in the last days that this is at the top of Stephen Miller's agenda. He wants to finalize this over the next weeks. And if it does, this will have an impact on Hawaii, which has a lot of lawfully present immigrants as well. They need our help because they're at the bottom of the economic ladder. Anyway, as recent immigrants trying to make a living. And so this will hurt them where they live. It will hurt them to the point of hurting their health. Their health, our general well-being in the country. And I think the thing about this today is, again, these are folks who are lawfully present, folks who've been playing by the rules. They're eligible for these programs and to suddenly change the rules and say, if you use those programs, which you have been eligible for, you're now going to be penalized and be separated for your family. Sends a chilling effect. And so what we're seeing now is so much confusion and fear in immigrant communities that even people who have a green card are afraid that it will affect their ability to become citizens. People whose children are U.S. citizens. Also legitimate fear, isn't it? Absolutely. It's a completely legitimate fear and a lot of confusion because the proposed rule was 480-plus pages. And even lawyers, we're experts in this area and it has taken us months to fully understand the complexity of this proposed rule. It hasn't been through the process yet. It isn't a rule that's finished and effective, but it scares people. That's right. Because they wonder if it will be effective and if it will, can Congress do something about this? Well, we have to see what the final rule is. We have to look at the language of it. If it does, in fact, get finalized, we at the National Immigration Law Center are absolutely planning to sue over it. And hopefully, again, the courts will block this from going into effect. We are also, I hope so, we're also hoping that Congress will look at the impacts of this, limit the extent of this, and then states and localities actually have a really important role to play in this as well, both in educating their constituency over what the final rule is or what it says or doesn't say what it means, letting their residents know at the state level here in Hawaii or here in Honolulu what programs will continue to be available for them. And again, to make sure that there is, that we counter that fear and instead help our residents feel welcomed, feel that we are all fighting together so that they can thrive and could become successful members of our society and participants. Caring about each other. That's right. So, Marilena, we're gonna take a break in a minute, but before we do, I just wanna follow on the Ben Forenz notion that we should all be doing something to help our country and our world today. If somebody is concerned about these issues, somebody concerned about caring for his fellow man, woman, human being in the world today, especially immigrants who have such a hard time, how can they do that? Can they do that through you? Can they sign up in some way? Can they do volunteer? Can they provide some help to you? Tell the people. Absolutely. So, I really encourage all of you to visit our website which is www.nilc.org. Again, it's nilc.org. National Immigration Law Center. That's right, and so through our website, you can sign up for email updates so that you can stay up to date. I think one of the things that's so difficult is that immigration is such a complex area of law, and because we are seeing changes and proposed changes in policies and laws almost every day, sometimes multiple times a day, it's really important for the public to be, to stay on top of it, and what's one of the things that people rely on us for is that timely and accurate legal information. Yeah, sometimes I think the immigration, whether the administration doesn't want us to know all the strange and terrible things it is doing. So, it's really important we stay up on things. Absolutely. We'll take a short break, Mary-Laine, and we'll come back, and we'll talk then about sanctuary cities. We'll talk then about what is happening in Central America and what the right approach would be. Great, absolutely. We'll be right back. Aloha, I'm Wendy Lo, and I'm coming to you every other Tuesday at two o'clock live from Think Tech Hawaii, and on our show, we talk about taking your health back, and what does that mean? It means mind, body, and soul. Anything you can do that makes your body healthier and happier is what we're gonna be talking about, whether it's spiritual health, mental health, fascia health, beautiful smile health, whatever it means, let's take healthy back. Aloha. Hi, I'm Rusty Komori, host of Beyond the Lines on Think Tech Hawaii. My show is based on my book also titled Beyond the Lines, and it's about creating a superior culture of excellence, leadership, and finding greatness. I interview guests who are successful in business, sports, and life, which is sure to inspire you in finding your greatness. Join me every Monday as we go Beyond the Lines at 11 a.m. Aloha. Hey, this is Mary Elena in Copier. She is the Executive Director of the National Immigration Law Center, a very important organization for the preservation of our democracy and our morality here in these United States. So I wanted to move on to sanctuary cities. This is a very interesting concept. I don't think this has happened before the Trump administration. It's certainly happening now. What are your thoughts about that? Should cities do this? Should cities be made to do this, you know? Where is this all going? Yeah. So it's a great question, and I'll first start, Jay, by the concept of sanctuary, which actually comes from the church, comes from the faith community. Way back when, yeah. That's right, and especially in the 1980s where the faith community was providing safety, sanctuary to refugees coming from Central America, and of course throughout history that has been the place of many houses of worship to provide that. So that's the first thing I would say. And the same concept applies to how cities, localities can provide that safety to their residents. And the Trump administration has done a great job of demonizing the term and politicizing a term that, frankly, everyone should be in support of regardless of what your party affiliation or ideology. It goes deep in our history and culture. That's right, and it goes deep into that place of morality once again and about the ability for all of us, every human being wants to be safe and should be safe, and our laws and policies should actually promote safety. In the immigration context in the last couple of years, what this has meant is that because of the fear, because of the immigration customs enforcement agency ICE or the border patrol, which are two agencies that have been, their budgets have increased year after year, actually in fiscal year 2012, I believe I was, so this is even predating the Trump administration, the immigration enforcement at the border and in the interior was combined over $18 billion, was their budget. More than all federal law enforcement agencies combined, more than FBI, DEA, CIA, all of them combined. And so one of the things that's interesting is that the current administration talks so much about a porous border, there's an invasion happening, there are all these people here unlawfully. The facts actually don't say that at all, the facts say the opposite. There's been a net zero migration from Mexico, for example, from Mexico. What we are seeing is an increase in migration from Central America and we could talk separately about why that's the case. But because of the fear and because the immigration and customs enforcement and border patrol are agencies that have pretty much operating with complete immunity, no accountability, detaining people based on racial profiling, detaining people who have been here for a decade, two decades or longer, many localities are basically saying we actually need to ensure that all of our residents are safe and that if they are a victim of a crime or they are a witness of a crime, they should feel confident that they can come forward and report that to the police and that we, the police, will protect them and the community. It really is all about public safety. Less haven't, really has nothing to do with immigration status, but instead is that the local police is gonna do their job about increasing public safety for all of their residents and is not going to collaborate with immigration enforcement because if they do, that then creates that fear and distrust by their immigrant residents and not being able to, or not wanting to report a crime for fear that they will be placed into deportation proceedings. And good for San Francisco was that San Francisco has said, send them down. We'll take your tired, huddled masses yearning to breathe. Right, that's right. And you know, it's not only San Francisco, there are many, many localities around the country. Again, in blue states and purple states and red states that are saying actually, we the police, we have too many different challenges to deal with, we're not immigration agents and that's not gonna be our job. We're gonna focus on ensuring that crime is stopped and that everybody, regardless of their immigration status, should come forward and report a crime or as a witness or a victim. And I mean, I always ask myself, Jay, for people who say they're against it, I always ask myself, if you had a family member that was assaulted by someone and there was a witness, there was one witness that would help you actually get justice for your family, would it matter to you if that person was a citizen born here, a refugee, has a green card, undone, came out here, you would know. You would want that person to feel free and want to collaborate with the police and that's what this is all about. Something that was relevant also that, what's her name, Kirsten Nielsen, who was not my favorite person at all, nobody's favorite person who did really horrible things. That's right. I guess for Trump, I think he was telling her to do those things and then he was throwing her out because she did what he told her to do, that kind of thing. So now she's gone and they got this, Trump has this other guy who was brought up from the chain who was supposed to be meaner still and then he says to him, don't worry, as long as you follow my instructions, I will pardon you. To me, that's one of those really special, award-winning violations of the letter and spirit of the Constitution and our democracy. Yeah. But let's remember, this is a president who believes he's above the law. I mean, he really does believe that he is not accountable to anyone nor the Constitution and especially not to us as voters. And so it's not surprising. I think we're gonna see a lot of things like that. And as we get closer to the 2020 elections, one of the things that the president has already said is he actually wants to get tougher on immigration. And so we expect to see much worse. And this is again where I really call on all voters and really urge everyone in the state of Hawaii and across the nation that this isn't even about immigrants or immigration. This is about our democracy. It is about our Constitution. It is about our standing in the world. It is about our morality and it's about the future that we are embracing or not in this country. And we have to respect ourselves. That's right. We have to feel good about ourselves and we're not feeling so good. What amazes me to anybody supports this kind of policy. Hearing it from him, there's a lot of people who support this policy. I really can't imagine that. They just uninformed is what it is. Well, I think that there's very intentional misinformation happening. There's a lot of confusion and chaos being created. And one of the things that the president is really good about is actually exploiting fear and race. He's using race very much. So much of this is simply race. Absolutely. He is using race as a way to instill anger, to I would even say instill violence. And one of the things that we're seeing is that so many of the people I believe that so many of the people who have supported the president who voted for the president are not only misinformed but frankly like their own humanity is being denied that they are experiencing a lot of economic insecurity. They're feeling what's called cultural anxiety because they see their local community or the country changing or whatever that is and that if we had a chance to sit just across from each other just like you and I are doing and they were able to understand that we as immigrants share the same fears, the same hopes, the same dreams and we could see each other as human beings. That's right and as human beings that we would be able to create a much more equitable inclusive society for all of us because we actually need to be fighting for all of us. I think one other element in all this divisiveness and scapegoatism on a scale the world has never seen before. Even in Europe the percentage of people, the number of people who are involved as scapegoats here is huge and the reason to scapegoat them of course is to enhance your own power and that's very scary in terms of our democracy. One last question though Marylena and that is so this is all in the southern border and it is racist but it reflects a problem south of the border in Mexico with a degree in Central America to a larger degree and it seems to me American policy has failed in terms of maintaining a stable America, America's right in all these countries. That's right. And that includes Venezuela which is coming apart. Absolutely. Maybe the press didn't cover it this morning but you know it's still coming apart. Absolutely. And so the question I put to you is where exactly have we failed and what can we do now to stem the flow, to stem the violence, to stem the gangs, to stem all of these things that are happening that create these caravans that worse. Yeah. So it's such an important question James so glad you're asking because one of the things we need to understand is that people are coming from the Northern Triangle right from Central America from Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador in particular because those are countries that have become so dangerous that a mother makes a decision every single day about whether I save my children and leave this burning house or this burning country and seek safety and make that dangerous journey for 20, 25 days walking without anything in search of safety, right? So if we have a history in our nation of accepting refugees that's exactly what these individuals are. They are seeking refuge in our nation but the situation in Central America is what it is today because of US foreign policy. I mean we actually have created this crisis there. The crisis at the border is completely manufactured. Everything that's happening at the border about the wall or the caravans that's all manufactured by this administration, what isn't manufactured where the real crisis is the root causes in Central America that are forcing people to migrate and so for us at the National Immigration Law Center we believe that the long-term vision is that we must ensure that people have the freedom to remain and what I mean by that is we need to ensure that economic development is happening. That foreign policy, economic trade is not actually forcing people to migrate and that people can remain in their home countries that they have the basic needs that they need to thrive that they have access to opportunities, educational employment, that the natural resources are not being exploited by transnational corporations. It's all of these different things that result in the drivers of migration that force people to migrate. Look, the reality is most people want to remain their home country making that journey to another country where you don't know the language, you may not know people, you don't have any ties. Whiskey business. Exactly and so that one requires so much courage and resilience. Most people want to remain in their home country and people should have the freedom to remain and from our policy perspective we actually should be looking to ensure that we can elect a next president that understands that you can't address immigration unless we're addressing the root causes of migration. You know, looking at this, listening to this discussion, especially if you were a young law student perhaps or a young lawyer, may make you want to go into immigration law. Absolutely. Do you have comments on that? What do you suggest to somebody who might be dealing with that issue? So one of the things that's so excited about this painful moment that we're living is that being a law student or a lawyer is a wonderful gift in this moment. We get to shape the laws and policies of the future of this nation. Well, we have a duty, don't we? Absolutely. We have a duty to protect, preserve the rule of law. That's right. That's right. And we've seen an increase in law students wanting to study immigration. We've seen an increase in lawyers wanting to help out. And so I, especially these days that I'm here in Hawaii and learning about the law school which does amazing work under Dean Abhi Safir is really to encourage law students to consider immigration as a law practice. I think if we increase the number of law students and lawyers that are engaging in immigration that are fighting not just for immigrant communities but are fighting for a more inclusive and equitable society. That gives me a lot of hope and I look forward to working with all of those future lawyers and law students. I hope you run into John Egan if you haven't already. And Claire Hannes, they're both excellent immigration lawyers. I have, I've gotten a chance to meet with them and break bread with them over the last couple of days. So amazing. You know, Honolulu is lucky to have them. And I'm lucky to now be partnering with them as well. And we're lucky that you exist. We're lucky that you're doing what you do. Thank you for doing what you do. Thank you so much, Jay. Really appreciate it. Mary Elena. Thank you. Thank you so much. Aloha, mahalo.