 All right, welcome everyone to the Identity Implementaries Working Group call for July 28, 2022. Thank you for joining us today. My name is Shar Haaland and I'm a co-moderator of this group with Tim Spring. Today we will go over Working Group status updates and then hear a presentation from Marco Lutti, the lead product designer at Percivus on designing an SSI wallet. So as usual, since this is a hyperledger audition call we're following the antitrust policy and since this is a hyperledger call we're following the hyperledger code of conduct which are both linked here. This call is being recorded and will be posted on the meeting page later today. Introductions, would anybody like to introduce themselves if you're new or rejoining the call and would like to say hi. Or a few words about why you're involved in this space. So thank you for the introduction. Hi everyone, I'm Marco and I'll be presenting prospectus of designing an SSI wallet app later on. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Of course, thank you so much for joining us Marco we really appreciate it. All right, and then I will send out the link to this wiki if you'd like to go ahead and put your name under the attendees list. That would be great. Let's see. A few announcements worth mentioning there is an Aries interopathon proposed for August 31. I'm sure we can get more definitive details as that date draws near. And then also to relevant conferences the hyperledger global forum in Dublin in September and then rebooting web of trust in Denhag in September as well and their links if you'd like to learn more. Any announcements anybody else has that they'd like to share. All right. Then I think we are ready to go ahead and go through working group updates. Let's see so the start with hyperledger. The main identity working group have met since we last met and then the Indian contributors working group there, they're active of course but have had their last couple meetings canceled because of holidays so not too much to report there. The Aries working group is anybody involved in this one would like to report. In the Aries working group they've been discussing credential extras specifically adding the fields issuer credentials hash link data and attach this is an alternative to using the generic extra structure instead of a structure for each purpose but I think they've settled on calling them supplements instead of extras. So there's more information on that if you'd like to learn more. Aries by full they've been talking about react hooks. 030 tab config tab navigation configuration and ledger proxy UI discussion. Let's see. ACA pug. This meeting discussed recent merges there was also a discussion about ledger agnostic dids and an encodes objects. Referencing an encodes objects on other verifiable data registries. So there's a desire to support did Indy so that we can have multiple ledgers easily on a single agent without checking all the ledgers. Let's see areas framework go. We've got some work updates there their links to these PRs if you'd like to learn more. Aries framework JavaScripts. See, they've been talking about FJ and areas fabric integration and modularization API. I can, I can say a few words on that if you like. Please thank you. Yeah, the, the, the AFJ areas fabric integration week we had a demo are weekly meeting last Thursday, I think it was from a company called Rubin. I don't know if you pronounce that crub and revolutionizing governance through blockchain is there is their motto and they and their guys have been building this areas fabric layer. The idea there is that you would use the AFJ that to kind of plug in an indie blockchain or a fabric blockchain. It's very, very cool that the demo was fantastic I was very impressed with it and it's great what they do it's a very early stages yet and kind of my worry is that kind of, you know, kind of duplicating all of the masses of sort of indie identity layer is a big task but they've taken it on and they've they've they've they've got they're making very good progress so just just a last point on that is kind of well why would you want to do that and this is a particular interesting topic for me because I spent a couple years working with fabric and I've spent the last two or three years working with Aries so I kind of have a take on both sides of the equation and one of the typical use cases is if you imagine that the sort of enterprise blockchain fabric type thing where you have, you know, all these like big huge supply chain things and all the rest of it that things like fabric are really good at, but it doesn't have a very good identity there because the fabric identity layer is this difficult authority server with x509 and the rest of it. And then on the other side you have indie which is great for identity. I don't know about that but it doesn't have smart contracts tokens and we can't do all the kind of sort of enterprise scale blockchain kind of stuff that fabric can. So, how about we come up last year where we merge all of that cool functionality into one thing. So for example, I always had this dream of building a supply chain, sort of enterprise network where each stage of the supply chain where you needed identity you go off to a verifiable credentials and say hey give me your export license or your VAT certificate or whatever it would be and we'd use verifiable credentials for that and the past you would need to build fabric and you would need to have an identity sort of alongside each other get two blockchains, not a great solution so all these guys have done is kind of basically solve that problem or on the way to solving it whereby you could have all of the enterprise blockchain solutions provided by Hyperlegia Fabric with a really cool Aries Indie type identity Aries not Indie Aries identity layer kind of built into that as well and they're making really good progress. So I just wanted to say a word for these guys because I said very impressed with that so yeah that's what we saw last week. Great, thank you so much for for jumping in with that Mike. I'm glad the demo went so well and appreciate your your explanation of that. Thank you. No worries. All right, looks like we're at the end of the Hyperlegia working groups that we track Hyperlegia Aries has not been meeting recently. Are there any other Hyperlegia updates that anybody wants to give? All right, I think we can move on to trust over IP. They had their all members meeting on July 20. Does anybody attend this one who'd like to report? It looks like they talked about upcoming conferences some new task forces including artificial intelligence and the metaverse task force governance architecture task force mental models task force and then also discussed working on a white paper on biological ecosystems. The steering committee met on July 13. Which was reported on in our last meeting. Let's see. The communications committee. Anybody involved in this one who'd like to report. We're meeting tomorrow. That's best I got. Okay, great. I would love to hear about that in our next meeting. I don't know if Dan or anybody else from TYP could comment on CVS health joining on, I wasn't aware that they were steering committee member now. Yeah, yeah, they definitely joined. I can't remember who was represented. Who's represented on the call. We have to look in the meeting minutes but yep. They joined and yep they're steering a member now yep. Yeah, that's fantastic. They're supporting participation in the did him as well. I, and I understood that they may not have been committed to the TYP direction so that's great to hear. Thanks Dan. That's great. Thanks for that update. All right, governance stack working group anybody involved in this one who'd like to report. Yeah, I can say something to that. I am actually on that governance architecture task force. There's a small number of us. And we were kind of taken it slow through the summer here, but we do anticipate kind of changing the structure of the governance documentation. So really, in a nutshell, it is going to be more component based governance, then layer based governance. The original intention was that it would be layer based based on the four layers of trust over IP, but we're going to be switching that around and doing it more component based. So for example, you could have a governance framework that talks about just schema and credential. The entire layer three kind of piece. Great. Thank you for that updates. Yeah. And it looks like the governance stack working group will take a brief break for the summer and return in early September. That's right. Cool. All right. Technology stack working group. Anybody like to report on this one. We have a stack tech art task force where you have busy on on writing the technical specification shooting for the end of August to to complete that at the well coincident with the hyper ledger global form is I mean, what is it open source meeting and trust so right he is going to have a mini conference there and drumming will present drumming and maybe a when Jane, I think are going to present the, the output of the tech art task force the Yeah, that that text back. At least the initial draft of it. That's, that's what I know. Great, great. planning to go, are you planning to go to that hyper ledger global form. Many some and all that. I personally am not. Because there's my main area is still biometrics and there's a European Association of biometrics meeting that conflicts with it so I planning to go there. Thank you for that update. All right, utility foundry group. Let's see anyone involved in this one who'd like to report. So they haven't met since June as far as I can tell but they reported in the all members meeting that they're ongoing work items are the public utility directory. This is a list of all the active layer one utilities. And then a framework for evaluating layer one utilities. Which is in the final review stages and then in the future they'll be focusing on combining efforts with the layer one governance task force. And then have a specific deliverable on decentralized identity architecture and regulatory compliance. So, that's what they are focusing on ecosystem foundry group. Anybody involved in this one who'd like to report. We had a presentation from Keith Thomas on drone pilot credentialing for air safety in their last meeting. And then concepts and terminology. Anybody want to report on this one. So they are continuing their work on the terminology toolbox framework. Their new work is that they now have a volunteer development team and an architect for terminology toolbox 2.0. They were they're also working on mental models to explain the to create a mini ontology and and this is the group that is planning to start up that mental models task force in September. Great. Any other to IP updates. Next up is the diff. Anybody involved in the did come working group would like to report. It been discussing having a blog post for the diff blog. There's a draft linked there. And then did come users group. As far as I can tell I don't believe they've met. Since we last met. If anyone knows otherwise feel free to jump in. And same with the interoperability group. All right, sovereign foundation. Let's see. I think as far as I can tell again, their last meeting for an early February. Anybody aware of work going on. And either of these groups or in the SSI and IOT working group. I'm a member of the SSI and IOT working group and I think we'll keep the name the same for the time being we haven't really talked about with Michael, but I think we're on the cusp of getting into some really, really cool stuff, especially the communication between SSI. Zero trust IOT and edge devices and digital twins. And we've got a number of presentations and discussions. Regarding digital twins and account, the components of, of IOT into that. And modeling. And on SSI and on zero trust. And on a separate berated note. We're affiliated with the digital twin consortium and their security and trustworthiness working group and there are parallels between some of the areas we're going so to watch this space. I think we've got some exciting stuff coming. Yeah, that's great. I'm glad we're reporting on this group and keeping up with it and appreciate that update. All right. The W3C standard in the did working group. I'm not aware of them. They were from the W3C community. Anybody knows otherwise, feel free to jump in. And the big news there is we'll you have. Do you have it there that it was adopted the initial version? Oh, yes. Yeah. That was the big news out of that right. Right. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. pushing back on that, but either they were lented or were convinced, but bottom line it passed 1.0. Drummond was very happy. They're already working on the next version, but Drummond said he's done, but he spent a lot of, yeah, sweat equity and getting that over the hump, and there was much rejoicing, and he's moved on. Oh, that's good to hear. Yeah, thank you for for emphasizing that. All right, in the Community Credentials group, they met recently, they had a meeting on Refundable Credentials for Education Task Force. Link's there if you'd like to learn more. All right, are there any other working groups or updates that I'm missing for the W3C standard group or any foundations in general? All right, in that case, I will hand it over to Marco for his presentation. I'll pass the screen share over to you, and I think you should have access to screen sharing, but yeah, thank you again so much for being here, Marco. Thank you all. I'm really excited to present. So yeah, let us begin. So I will be talking about designing, designing the SSI while it like perspectives from a designer. So what we've noticed at Preserve is when we talk about the whole SSI space, it's always very technical or conceptual, but we always forget the details of the human interaction. So we thought it'd be interesting to show how we approached those challenges with our current products and ideas that we've played around in our current product. A little bit about Procevis, where a Swiss company founded in 2016, and we want to unlock the venture of the digital in the public sector. So for us, it was always in the center that EID should be the core base of it all, but we also knew that there were principles that we wanted to follow, like we thought a mobile first, we think a mobile first solution is the correct way to approach it, always keeping the user in the center, and of course, decentralized data management and data protection with the highest securities. A little overview of our products. We started out with the EID plus product, which is like a smart government solution where you can order depth registry extracts, and you have a verified EID on it. This is currently running in Switzerland in two cantons. Cantons are comparable to states. MDL, which is our driving license, digital mobile driving license solution. We started that in 2020, and we are in the process of getting it ISO certified. And since last year, the topic we're talking about today, SSI plus, we started working with the Hyperlink, ledger ND, and Aries frameworks. And yeah, it's the product I'm going to be talking about today. Starting point before we get into the product and designs, in our whole process, we decided we should have some guidelines and mantras to follow. And when we kicked it off, we were like, all right, how would we explain this to our partner or to our parents what we're trying to do? And we always have the symbol, we're like, we're trying to take what you have in your wallet and make it digitally accessible, as use it in the physical world, and as trusted and secure as we have it now. So a goal for us was at minimum, it should be as easy to use as you use your normal ID card. It should be as trusted as your driver's license when you show it to the police officer. And yeah, we followed that. The next question, of course, is how do you even proceed to achieve such a goal? So we reflected it back and we looked what Apple did with the touch paradigm over 15 years ago, with the, you know, there has to be a transition. So we call it an evolution instead of a revolution. We're not trying to break this whole world that we have. We're trying to transition the physical to the digital. And the way Apple did it was by using these metaphors or scoriomorphic design and slowly easing the user in. So a notebook looked like a physical notebook. Nowadays, it's an abstract form of it. Or when you had the iBooks app, there was a bookshelf with the books physically placed there. So it was this transfer of, you know, you look at the driver's license, it has all these elements of this haptics, this touch that makes it trustworthy. We said it's important to transition this over. And the other thing we also observed what's happening right now, the physicals, the digital spaces is affecting the physical space. So Mastercard has announced I think last year that they want to issue their credit cards in a portrait mode. And this development, of course, happens because we live on a cell phone now. We consume videos in portrait mode. I mean, some people still roll their eyes, but it's a reality. So all these formats are morphine into that. So with those goals in mind, we started our product and I'm going to jump to the end. So we're going to see a demo video from about six weeks ago, where it shows our video. So important to note about our product, we're focusing very much on the Swiss government. The Swiss government is planning to bring out an SSI solution. They're working on the law. So for example, here we see the onboarding. The onboarding is a mandatory onboarding where we are issuing a base ID based on your physical Swiss identity card. And this is just a demonstration. It's not written. It's just a proof of concept to show what would be possible. We also have different onboardings for different cases, such as a manual onboarding or directly from the QR code. So in this case, this user set up their identity card and got a VC, a rarefiable credential. And in the next case, we're showing another issuance of a VC through our desk. And this is a Swiss driver's license. Yeah. And then in the final step, we're playing through like, how can we do a proof request? In this case, we're doing a rental car demo where we're using that driver's license that we issued before to verify that we're able to drive that category that we still have a valid driver's license. So how did we get to this point? Of course, I waited for the logos. So how did we get to this point? So we tried to keep the wallet as simple as basic. So we have a top-down semantic layout where we're trying to structure the different sections. We start out by being personal and saying, hey, welcome to your wallet. Here's the credential. And then the navigation, how we see it. So you see how these credentials are moving, the shared with are the connections associated with this credential. So we were trying to test and we realized that the user gets very confused between their credential library and their connection library. So we quite quickly got to that point. And we did this by continuously testing ideas. So we would always create these rapid click dummies. The first version, of course, based on our EID, we realized the EID context, our setup was not the best. And we, in December, played around with the shared width and the history. The user acceptance was higher. Quickly realized this history part is not, is very confusing. You have the double tap and then move to this current variation where we have a favorites and a old tab. So the favorites is an overall view. And yeah, we were testing with users. The first test we did was for Tender with Luxembourg. Luxembourg was looking for, was experimenting with the concepts of SSI. They wanted verifiable credentials and we got to build a little platform, demo platform, which yeah, got to see, which I'm not going to show today. As I said, there's a lot of things to show in this app. So maybe to break it down, we go over the highlights that might be interesting for hyperledger, you know, perspectives that we had to implement because we needed. So I always like to start this part by saying, what keeps me up at night as a designer or what kept me up at as a designer? So the first question I always asked myself was, how do we share credentials? I mean, how do we share different versions? How do we share if it's a zero knowledge proof? I mean, there are a lot of encrypted complexities. And I mean, if I explain zero knowledge proof to my parents, they'll look at me and be like, excuse me, what? So where's one of the challenges? In Switzerland, we have four national languages. I mean, we're a small country. We have that many languages. And it's always an issue. So how do we handle language? Do we show all the languages? How do they do it now on the identity card? Or do we, because we're in the digital space, change the language by seeing what the user prefers? Then the next question was always, I mean, all these institutes and entities, they're proud of their current credentials and they want to have their designs. They want to see their designs in that. So we're like, okay, we have to figure out a way to solve this. This is important to them. It's a bit of a prestige story. And then the other question, because we are also interoperable, how do we handle external credentials that do not have a design file and make them look good and as good as the other credentials? So simply sharing. So it's not working the way I wanted to. In the sharing flow here, we have an example of someone scanning a proof request. And we're asking for these credentials. So it's easy. We can see there's a lock and all the check marks. So it indicates that they're all required. And you can either cancel or share. Can I ask, when you share those credentials, what protocol were you using? How did you securely and privately share those credentials? So as to mention again, I'm the designer. It would have been great if we had one of our developers here, lead architect. Okay, fair enough. This looks to me like it's Indie Aries. Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. The whole product is Indie Aries, that's what I know. Okay, so it's probably using a non-credge or something like that. Okay. Yeah. In the next version, I'll go through how we do handle multiple versions. So in this use case, let's say I get my role changes from lead product designer to head of design and they don't revoke my last credential. How do we handle that when we go to the sharing flow? So here we have a selector, which indicates, hey, there are multiple versions. We default by selecting the last issue. So we can then say, no, I want the oldest one and switch and share that with the verifier. And the last one, which we're still working on is the zero knowledge proof. So we're still working out the details, especially the language part, but we've noticed that from the very beginning, we have to somehow communicate that we're only transmitting the condition without calling it zero knowledge proof. So this is one of our current experiments on how to resolve this. We were doing an age check of a driver's license to see if the person's 18. And as you can see right now, we're doing this conversion of, is this date of birth older than the 18 year old limit translated into a date? So because the date was, I think the 25th of July. So 25th July of 2005 or 2004. Yeah, still working on that. Then the language thing. So on the app side, you can switch between two languages currently. We're trying to get more languages on board over time. That's all good and all. The close button there is now Schneese, which is German. But how do we handle the attributes? So we can't really handle the values of the attributes. But what we did is in our desk, we enabled to document different languages. So here we have English in German, English set as a primary. So it always will default to English. And then we can add the attributes we want. We also have attribute types, which is like, do we have a type date? Do we have a type email address? Gender. So we have these standard types that we've seen reoccurring in other VCs. And yeah, we can put the translation in there. So there's no real point of translating the title of the credential much, because it's the same in both languages. But for example, given names is for now, and the date of birth is good. And that's how we can swap the attributes within the app. The labels of the attributes, of course. And then designing for VCs, which is the next step after the translations. So now you set your schema up and you're like, you need to focus about design. We start by defining the credential types. And we made it really simple, because I mean, how do the entities do it now? They send their print files to the printer and they get done. Our hope is maybe in the future to make it more parametricized, so we can have responsive design. But this is for a V1, our way of solving it. And of course, you can design how it looks. So we have the dashboard review, which is the wallet view. When it's minimized only with two attributes in the main, you can combine the name, you can say there is an image or not an image. You can also change the order of how it's displayed in the detail view and then next step, you can publish. And yeah, how do we handle external credentials? In this video, I'm going to show how we get credentials issued by the Lizzie demo site. There, basically what we're doing is where we made a very simple generative design template. So it takes the first letter of the credential, puts it in a pattern, defines a color based on a ratio. And as you can see, it issues the base ID like that. Has no language translation. So we would switch to German right now. I think only issued on an issuer can be translated. The rest will remain the way they were assigned. And as you can see, we can use this base ID. In the next step, put the demo page and yeah, share it. Yeah, who knows where to highlight some quick summary, next steps. The next couple of months are going to be very busy for us. We're validating our eyes with different groups from the mobility and education sectors as well, commercial ideas, validate and most likely reiterate. We'll see what the inputs are. As mentioned before, expand and optimize how we design VCs. We see there's a huge potential that still needs the polish that we're looking for, but we have a good foundation. And another step that we also really want to take is how do we do these verification. So we're going to focus on the usability for developers. And that's going to be documentation, how we set up the schema. So I'm going to work very closely with developers and figure out the needs and wants and how would they prefer to work with such a tool. Also noted some hopes for the future of hyperledger. The multi-language support, I think it'd be brilliant if there was a standard for that. And also if there was a standard for designs. I mean, I think every wallet looks different and every credential looks different. I know it's just a collection of attributes, but I think design is going to be very important for the acceptance for the general public. And yeah, more growth and stability. I mean, what we've seen personally, it's been getting, it feels like it's getting stabbler and stabbler as time goes by and we're really excited what the future brings. Yeah, that was a quick overview presentation and perspective from a designer. Questions? Hi Marco, it's Kyle. I'm working with the province of British Columbia and not my specific project, but we're working alongside a group who's working on a mobile wallet. They're using Aries Byfold in Canada, as well as other provinces in Canada are also using Aries Byfold. One of the things that our team is also looking at is the multi-language, because in Canada we have two official languages, English and French. And one of the paths that we are going down for solving that problem, as well as sort of the issue of making things look nice, is in the Aries world is looking at the overlay. It's colloquially called OCA, but it's an OCA overlay architecture. And the idea there is that it allows for things to look pretty and to do translations, but in an interoperable way. Oh, that's cool. So I can connect you with... Yeah, thanks, Jim. So I can connect you with Stephen Curran or some others who are working through that, but I would recommend and maybe others would recommend the same. Jim, do you have a further comment on... Yeah, Kyle, thanks very much. I mean, Paul Knowles is arguably the inventor for OCA, and as you've probably seen, where they're going to restructure one of the working groups around what they end up calling it, data specifications or something like that, but Marko, what it really implies is the ability to provide granular consent of information exchange in conjunction with your zero-knowledge proof and your credential exchange. Not to say it isn't... I mean, it's technically pretty sophisticated, and there's lots of things to sort through, but it's gaining momentum, and yeah, I think it would be a great idea to be involved there. That would be pretty cool. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. I'll gladly look into it. I think you mentioned this, and I might have missed it, but did you say that it will soon be mandatory in Switzerland to have the driver's license credential? Because Switzerland has a direct democracy, everything takes very long. Right now, they're trying to get the template of the law shaped, so I think it's planned to have the driver's license, but there's no specifics yet until the law has been passed. Marko, I'm very sorry for missing this. Did you say y'all were adopting the ISO 1813 Mobile Driver's License Format, or it's going to be in VCs? Our MDL solution is based on that ISO, yes, the MDL ISO. Thank you. Appreciate it. We also have a blog post on that comparing the SSI and the MDL worlds, and yeah, I recommend reading it. Yeah, where could we find the blog post that you mentioned? I'm copying it right now. Oh, thank you. Oh, interesting. We did one from a not, if I could find it real quickly. We did a blog post as well on, yeah, on those differences, let's say. Yeah, it's interesting. The MDL spec is great because it is, well, it's multiple ISO specifications. Everybody refers to the application, but there's, I think, six parts to that specification. But anyhow, for example, out of scope is zero knowledge proofs. The way that you do zero knowledge proofs in MDL is you have basically have to hard code them. They say out of scope is how does an issuer get an MDL into a wallet? Well, that's out of scope. They refer to another ISO specification, which is not published yet. So anyhow, there's interesting bits like that, but it is an ISO spec, so there's that. I sent it, sorry, a direct message, but let me send it to everyone. That was the blog entry. Yeah, so we got to respect the fact that they spent years getting it to be an ISO specification, but yeah, there's evolution in both the SSI world and MDL world, sure. Definitely. Okay, may I ask you a question? Yeah. Okay, so self-sovereign identity is not and should never be regarded as something that is exclusively blockchain. Okay, there are other ways of doing self-sovereign identity. For example, the European Union's green pass for coronavirus COVID certificates was based on X509 PKI technology, the old standard technology that's been around for a long while. So my question to you would be, why did you decide to base your technology on blockchain and not use that same technology that was used by the EU for its green pass, i.e. X509? What is it that blockchain brings to you that that doesn't? So I think with this project, we were really interested in using hyperledger in these, so it was like a chance for us to test it out, a testbed, but we do realize that a PKI solution is still possible, especially in Switzerland, if there's a channel where these discussions come up and it seems very likely that the Swiss government would follow a hybrid model where they start out with the PKI and then transition over to a blockchain model in their trust network. Okay, interesting. By the way, you said there were two cantons, which two cantons are using this? So the first canton is Schaffhausen, two cities, so I think currently we have over half the cities in that canton, which is Zug, it Zug is the app which was launched by the city of Zug. Okay, the reason I ask is because I lived in Switzerland for four years and I was actually lived in Zug for a while, so it's interesting. So Zug, of course, is a bit of a hotbed of blockchain technology. I've got a feeling that's where, isn't that where some of the Ethereum guys are? The Ethereum Foundation seller, many blockchain foundations are there. Yeah, interesting. Okay, thank you for that answer. Yeah, so if I could jump in, I think it's an interesting question, Mike. It's just a technology to me, but it's an interesting question. I do a lot in border management with passports and IKOs, public key directory, and a reason to have a decentralized, distributed public key directory is, for example, the IKOs, PKD is you have two physical instances of it. They're both in South Asia. How resilient is that? Do you want a more resilient network that's more expansive, more decentralized? Those are some of the reasons to go to distributed ledger, but I'm not saying one is better than the other, but those are some of the considerations as architect we look at. Listen, Dan, you don't need to convince me I was playing devil's advocate there, right? The problem is that my worry about, this is a much wider issue and we're getting a little bit out of scope here, much wider issue than Marco's product. For the whole of us in Hyperledger, Ari's and Indy, the question is, you could convince me as an architect and a technical person, yes, of course, I understand that the decentralized sort of blockchain idea of cutting out that middle man of certificate authority, so all that gets great. Of course, it's better, but we've got to sell this product into the wider world to people who don't understand any of this. I've always thought, is blockchain technology in Hyperledger, Ari's and Indy and the decentralized approach so much better than X5 and IPKR that it's actually going to be able to blow that away and take over. Marco was talking about the Swiss government are going to move towards that and I would be very, very easy to hear the reasons why they were going to do that because I worry that our technology is so much better than what's already there that it will actually take off and move beyond anything other than just being a niche. So, Dan, on your side on this one, that's always been my concern. Yeah, it's interesting. In Europe, they're legislating their European digital identity wallet and they've already established EBSI and ECF and I've asked them, would they have two different blockchains in Ethereum based what BESU and Fabric? I'm like, why didn't you decide to use the one Hyperledger project that was purpose-built for identity if you're doing identity, why didn't you use Indy and well, you have to consider it, but anyhow. So, EBSI and ECF are using blockchain but Fabric and BESU. Yeah, and earlier on I was talking about the fact that there are people who are building the sort of Indy SDK type thing into the Fabric, building a proper identity layer that I mentioned what's going on in AFJs for me so it's really, really cool because you get the best of both worlds but yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, that's the point, isn't it? Yeah, Mike, I think I'd add 30 seconds of support and of course obviously I'm a convert to the Church of SSI and I focus in healthcare and so when I look more to the perfect use case, what I can say over the last two years that I've been involved in this looking at it from a healthcare data standpoint, there are not only as you point out architectural efficiencies around a VC and things like OCA when it comes to moving healthcare data of which both the VC and healthcare data are JSON objects. The second thing really does come down to some of these principles about SSI and zero knowledge proofs and when you're dealing with either disenfranchised communities or I mean I'll put it face to face what we're doing dealing with here in the US where all of a sudden we're looking at an issue of healthcare privacy around reproductive rights that compares with any sort of model in a third world country where we're concerned about excuse me low and middle income countries or we're concerned about preserving privacy in connection with discrimination. We've had a recent use case here where HRD surveillance programs are having problems why because people are like I don't understand what you're doing with your data and why are you telling me and again architecturally it's not perfect but the the Indie areas concept and that decentralized approach to credentials offer solutions in that health equity world that the X509 PKD go out to a identity service provider model do not just for my observation. I'm reassured by your by your explanation there Jim because I'm trying to listen I'm a blockchain SSI fetishist like you know bar none I believe in the technology but sometimes I have these little doubts and when you tell me what you've just told me that I kind of like I'm sort of reassured thinking yeah okay I'm on the right lines here because you know it is it is true the European Union did choose X509 PKI for their green past a lot of other vaccine certificates you know coronavirus vaccine passports and so on did didn't go to the blockchain and they could have done but they didn't and I'm kind of thinking well we've got we've got to win this argument if you like it's all SSI I mean X509 PKI still SSI but a different flavor of SSI I'm kind of like how do we how do we kind of overcome that that that sort of conflict if you want to call it that so yeah I very very good answer thank you Jim just in the context of Switzerland asset we're still formulating the law so what they found very important this time is the second time we're trying to have like a identity is they are not going to specify which technology they're going to specify the needs that they have so security privacy data protection all these needs and then see what solutions they are able to develop and I said in these working get up groups where the discussion is that it's highly likely it's going to start out as a PKI and then transition over to the blockchain I've also looked at I've been working on CBDCs as well you know central bank digital currencies that they're going through the same process I've read a lot of papers from you know the ECB the Federal Reserve Bank of England and so on and they're looking at introducing exactly the same kind of ideas in terms of technology it's not very far from credential it's not identity but it's still do we use blockchain or do we not so this this ongoing discussion that we're having here is going to is going to take place again and again and again it will be very interesting Marco to see to see how that that conversation goes in Switzerland yeah where we're excited to yeah hopefully by by by next year we we we know more thank you for your for your demo as well Marco by the way very good thank you I appreciate it thank you all are there any more questions for Marco in the last few minutes of the call all right well Marco thank you so much for this great presentation great video demos too we really appreciate you joining us and giving your perspective as a designer and thank you to everyone for joining providing working group updates and your questions and thoughts in this discussion at the end so thank you all so much and we'll see you in two weeks make sure thank you thank you thank you bye bye bye