 to us is a bit of a negative. You will have heard President Sisi talking about the 100 billion that was promised in Paris. President Sasunguesu yesterday as well also spoke about it at the dinner. Now, there is that issue that a number of the commitments that have been made have not really been fully lived up to. But before I get into details, let me immediately say that we recognize the many initiatives that have been put on the table. And a number of countries here have done so. Germany has gone out of the way to put a number of initiatives. And the US has also done a number of things. But there have been times when we felt like we were beggars. I played a key role as chair of the African Union during the COVID period. We felt like we were beggars when it came to vaccines availability. When we felt we needed access to vaccines and the northern hemisphere countries had bought all the vaccines in the world and they were hogging them. And they didn't want to release them at the time when we needed them most. And we felt like we were begging. And at times it felt like they would just be droppings from the table. That, yes, we will give you that and that. And let me tell you something that generated a lot of resentment. We resented that. And it got worse when we said we want to manufacture our own vaccines. And when we went to the WTO, there was a lot of resistance, enormous resistance. And we kept saying, what is more important, life or profits, by your big pharmaceutical companies? And that too, I must tell you now, generated and deepened that disappointment and resentment on our part because we felt like life in the northern hemisphere is much more important than life in the global south. To us is a bit of a negative. You, France, has been phenomenal. When it comes to SDR, they were right at the front. And we appreciate that. What we are saying is different. It's not what you're saying. You're saying it's good, but it's not what you're saying. We are not saying that we continue to have what the taxes France is paying, the taxes Kenya is paying in the current setup. Those are national issues. We need a financial transaction tax at a global level where even countries like Kenya pay. We do not want anything for free. You will pay more eventually because you have a bigger economy. We will pay commensurate to our economy. And we want those resources controlled not by IMF and World Bank. Because IMF and World Bank, you have the final say. We don't have no say. We want another organization of equals where you have as much say because you pay as much as we do because we also pay. That's the organization we are looking for. And that is why we are saying we need a new financial architecture. Where governance, where power is not on the hands of a few people. We can agree on the governance of the institution. We can agree on the sharing of power so that all of us have access to resources that go to making sure number one, renewable energy. We invest in decarbonization. Number two, adaptation, mitigation, smart agriculture. Number three, restoring our planet, restoring our biodiversity and making sure our carbon sinks work. This is what we are saying. And we would appreciate a little understanding. We want to be, you know, we are talking the normal. If we continue talking the normal, Emmanuel, we will never solve this problem. You, France has been phenomenal. There you have it, President William Ruto of Kenya there at the summit. We are not beggars. The World Bank and the IMF are designed to trap Africa in debt. Well, those are some of the quotes from the African leaders who made bold to kick off all forms of shackles from the West as they just concluded new global finance impact summit held in Paris last week. Well, we've been joined by two lovely gentlemen, FM Ubi, Associate Professor, Acting Director of Research Nigerian Institute of International Affairs and Dr. Naseke Agoke, CEO John Holt PLC, former CEO of John Holt PLC. They've joined us to take a look at this very important discussion. You're welcome, gentlemen, to the breakfast. Thank you. Thank you. Well, President Ahmed Tunubu was there. He went on Tuesday. He didn't speak live during the economic summit. The Nigerian ambassador to France represented him, but he did meet on the sidelines with Nigerians living in France. But first, let's start with your general overview of that summit. I start with you, Dr. Agoke. Well, I thank you very much. I believe that the summit was timely. You have what President Rutter was talking about, of an institution like financial, a new financial institution of equals. I doubt if that is possible at this time, because we'll have to look at the dynamics of the international financial system, right? So what we need now, and I'm very pleased that some of the leaders from Europe and other developing countries have said so, that we need reforms of the World Bank and the IMF. So, for instance, if you look at the IMF, one of the central points of this summit was the special drawing rights. And if you look at the configuration of the special drawing rights, how it was developed and how it became a reserve asset and how it's allocated in terms of special and general location, does not really favor African countries, because in relation to the size of the economy, and you know that the countries like the US, Japan, China, Germany, Britain, France, their economies are much bigger. So they have more special drawing rights. And the special drawing rights are critical to development financing. So the points that have been made at the summit, yes, they're very important, but they just have to make sure that it's taken to the next level. It shouldn't be the summit as usual. All the decisions that have been taken there should be concretized. I think that's what African leaders should be talking about now. Not a matter of we're not beggars, we're not beggars, but to make sure that those Christian decisions that have been taken to move African countries forward. Because the summit talked extensively about climate change, how to help African countries and other developing countries, how to deal with the issues of debt-budding African countries, and how to ensure that the sustainable development goals are driven to the extent that they will provide the benefits that are needed by the citizens. So I think the summit has ended, but African leaders must come together now and drive processes to ensure that those decisions are implemented. After a movie, your overview of the summit. Well, I agree with him to a very large extent, because I would like to say that this summit, this global financial park summit came at the nick of time. Over the years, right from the days of independence of many African countries, there had been the quest for a financial system that is of equity, equality, and parity. Developing countries, generally and importantly, African countries, have been asking for a situation within the global financial system where there would not be subservient, where equality would take a prominent role. As I talked about the special drawing right, the argument has also been that even the Board of Directors of these multilateral financial institutions of the West are actually most of my private persons. An institution that is supposed to take into consideration nations as part and parcel of the Board of Directors. And the problem too has been that as at the time, these financial institutions were established in 1944, only 99 countries were part of it. And if you look at 1944 and nearly all African countries were actually not independent. And so they were integrated into a financial system, an economic system, or a global economic system that they were not part of. They didn't fashion it, they didn't design it, they were not part of the structure of that financial institution. And so with this new arrangement, this new global financial park summit, well, I won't say it's a new arrangement, it's not a new arrangement. What I can gather, the new global financial park summit is held in order to redesign a new system for the international community that will take into consideration issues of the developing world. And you know, we all suffer from climate change, poverty, unemployment, underdevelopment, insecurity and all that. And so we need development partners of equals that will alleviate the problems of Africa. Indeed, these summits, not the first time, Africans have attended such summits. We've had past leaders, some African leaders who were as bold as these ones we just listened to. But along the line is either they were cut out or you know, or they're sold out. What are the new dynamics that will ensure walking the talk and bringing the needed shift that we're talking about? Well, you know, why we, I mean, why African leaders and Africans are pushing for reforms and better terms of trade, better terms and conditions and terms of financing. African leaders must also understand that these things are not free. And there are certain parameters and fundamentals that must be in place. And this takes me to the point of governance. You know, the issue of trust. Do these developed countries, do they trust us sufficiently? Trust us in the sense of deploying resources that will come to Africa for development. I will likely to have those resources and the resources are taken away by individuals, right? Rather than for projects that are meant to alleviate poverty. So we must also begin to look in words and say to ourselves, what sort of infrastructure, what sort of system of governance do we have in place? What about the process of implementation to ensure that these resources are deployed exactly the way they should be deployed? It's just like a typical company that goes to a bank to say, give us facilities. The bank will ask you questions. What is your governance system now? Am I going to give you these facilities and I'm not certain that the facilities will be repaid? All right, so in this case, African leaders must come back home and say, look, we have to put a transferring system in place so that we can build trust for these developed countries and multilateral agencies to begin to trust us and then say to us, we're happy to give you this. If you look at the history of, particularly the issue of debt burden, you will ask yourself questions. For instance, are we going to international financial system to borrow to pay subsidies that a few people will put into their pockets? No. So we must begin to build trust so that they can trust us and believe in us if we're talking about equality. Yeah, as I said, it's not exactly possible, but we can begin to work towards that. But we must build a system of governance that involves implementation and deployment of resources that can benefit the people. Funds that we're looking for are not funds for leaders. They are funds that will be used to develop our economies. But if we don't have good infrastructure, if we don't have a system of governance that guarantees that these resources that will come to us will be deployed for the benefit of the people, they won't do anything. They are looking at us. They know the systems of governance and they know the issues that are here with regards to governance. So we must begin to also look in words. It's important for us to pursue and plead that there should be reforms at the World Bank, there should be reforms at the IMF so that we can get more than what we're getting now. But we must also put structures in place to ensure that when the resources come that they are not depleted unnecessarily and find their ways into homes and pockets of every individual. Yeah, definitely. African Union should make itself more relevant, shouldn't it, to help in putting Africa in the right state where they can be trusted. African leaders in African countries, curb greed, curb all manner of things, power drunk leaders who do not want to leave office. I mean, in the words of Ngugi Watyango in Petals of Blood work, you either eat or be eaten, right? It's survival of the fittest. And so these people are business people. They have countries to protect. How should the African Union come in here to make sure that Africa is indeed taken seriously and that value is placed on the continent by African leaders themselves? Well, you know, sometimes they always speak about the African Union. It has saved the African Union. It's a government in itself, you know, that could control states and manage state affairs, individual state affairs. But I don't think that is the case, you know, because every state in itself, you know, it's independent and sovereign. And so it is sometimes, you know, I mean, most times you'll find out that even some of the agreements, conventions actually are signed, agreed on and most of these countries are signed. They don't really implement most of them. You know, he has already talked about pragmatism, you know, where our leaders have to put in practice and even not just the African leaders themselves, but they develop war leaders have to put into practice what they have, what they are preaching, what they are saying. Well, I think it is high time for the African Union and as well as the regional economic communities or directs like it's often called to actually begin to look at ways for which African leaders will be whole accountable for every action. You know, it's because, you know, many African leaders are really not held accountable. Accountable, there are no, I would say loss with regards to punishment that could be given to them. You know, and that is why everybody, you know, all the leaders are doing what they are doing and in any case, you could see the outcome of bad governance and leadership in many of these countries like Burkina Faso, Mali, Guinea and other Sudan and other, you know, military parties are coming back again. There's a reversal of the military government, you know, across Africa is taking us back to the era of early independence, you know. All this is just as a result of bad governance. But I also say that it is high time that individual governments, you know, are held accountable and the government should understand that they are there and in place because of the people and not because of themselves, you know. So the whole idea of great, which my colleague here has talked about, the whole idea of corruption should be streamlined. I think the government should begin to fight corruption across board, you know, all over Africa. Part of the problem is because of lack of governance, lack of good leadership, lack of proper policies and reforms that should be injected into the system, you know, and that is why we have many of these problems. So, you know, African governments, I mean, it's generally African Union to over the years, you know, have come up with different mechanisms like the Department of Mechanism, you know, to try to see how good governance and good practices in government can be put in place. But you see, you know, no matter what you do, these are independent nations and they decide what they want to do and how to govern their people, you know. So, like I've argued, you know, sometimes when you say, when these things happen, for instance, unconstitutional change of government and the African Union and OECO has suspended them, they just don't bother about that, you know. Suspension is a good enough punishment for most of these countries or leaders, you know, who are involved in this abnormally, you know, that undermine their cities. So I think we should begin to play a proper and committed role within the African Union. Not the African Union itself, but the leaders, you know, the leaders within this union should begin to hold themselves accountable to the people. You know, they should give accounts to the people who voted them into power and who brought them into power. I think it is high time, you know, we begin to change our mentality, you know, to that of development. We should focus on development. We should focus on economic growth. So we should, like, have our own version of the ICC, the International Criminal Court in Africa? Well, I... Because some African countries already signalling their desire to boycott that. Yeah, but I wouldn't say we should have a replica of the ICC in Africa because I really don't really, as an individual, I don't only subscribe to the ICJ, you know, the International Court of Justice, the International Criminal Court, you know, I mean, the International Criminal Court, where I find it very offensive when you say a president should be arrested, you know. The question is, have you ever asked that the president of the developed country to be, have you ever asked for such a president to be arrested? Why would he? You know, because of the way they place us, you know. I think for me, we don't need the International Criminal Court in Africa or a replica of it in Africa. What you don't have in Africa. All we need to do, you see, this is an individual thing. You could decide not to be corrupt. You could decide to be people-oriented. You could decide to be development-oriented and not about, you know, being forced to do it. You know, you don't have to be forced to. You don't have to be forced to be good. No, but if Africa must develop, Africa must be taken seriously. And if Africa must be taken seriously, Africa must be seen to be in charge of its affairs, when you see your leaders as corrupt as we've seen as our leaders being, as we've seen our leaders stealing everything that they can possibly steal, that is why Africa is where it is today. Many have argued that the West do not have half of what Africa has. But because of wastages and theft, Africa is where it is. Now, if you're coming together at a global stage to try to unite and have a common front, shouldn't we have that unity at home first and be able to put ourselves in order? Let me just let you know. You know, the issue should not be about having a new institution to dispense justice. It shouldn't be a court. For instance, in Nigeria, sometimes people say, let's have a new body to try corrupt persons. We have sufficient laws. We have the criminal code. We have the EACC Act. We have the ICPC Act. The problem is enforcement. Enforcement, integrity of the system. Do we have confidence in the system that it will deliver justice? Do we have confidence in the system to the extent that if a poor man commits an offense, is punished and the big man commits an offense, is punished? Many Nigerians do not have that confidence in the system. So what we need is to strengthen the enforcement system. I don't know how the government will do it, but I believe that it's not something that is very difficult. It's a matter of political way to ensure that the system is strong enough to punish those who will do things that they are not supposed to do. When we begin to do that, for instance, look at Rwanda. Rwanda was in a civil war for very many years. Today, everybody wants to go to Rwanda. Many Nigerians are traveling to Rwanda for holidays. Why? You know, we used to say that international capital goes to where it is needed. That's no longer the statement we make these days. The statements we made are that international capital goes to where it will be safe. Safe in the sense that you deliver it, you give it to a particular country, they use it very well and for the reasons that you have given it to them. So it takes me back to the issue of trust. Do they trust us enough? And it's not just a matter of financial system. It's a complex system of the financial system is this strong enough? Do we have confidence in the financial system within the country? What about governors? What about security? What about infrastructure? Because you can't deliver resources to a country that is developing and those resources are depleted in such a way that they don't deliver the benefits or the kind of outcomes that you expect that they would deliver. So it's a major problem. But having said that, I believe that we're making progress. Don't know if it's still slow. What we need is for government to concretize efforts to ensure that infrastructure is good, to ensure that the system of governance is good, to ensure that the government has that political will and actually showcases that for people to believe that things will begin to work well. I've just given an example with Rwanda. Why is it everybody's going to Rwanda? You go to Rwanda, you drop a piece of paper on the road, someone by the side of the road said, take it back. So we must have discipline. That's also a major deficit in this country. We must, many African countries don't have that. So it must start from the top. So turn on the top. All right, so when we're saying, let's have a new international financial system, we must also be looking at what must be put in place in each of the African countries to guarantee that even when we have that system that African Development Bank is there, right? Is the African Development Bank that is driving the processes for the new global financing pact? And it's a Nigerian that is heading that institution. So, and everybody has been commending him and commending that ban. All right, so what we need to do is to work closely as African countries and make sure that things are put in place to ensure that we don't waste resources that will come to us. Have we exploited the ones we have? Mora, you talked about huge resources in Africa. What have we done? Now, we're talking about fossil fuels that in some years time, these will go. So what are we doing to ensure that we exploit what we have now maximally to the extent that we'll get enough financing? That's more revenue from that. Before we even get to the point of we're making commitments on climate change. We know the Paris conference is almost insufficient. Almost insufficient means that we're not there. We're not agreeing to the thresholds that experts are agreeing to. But I think, basically, let's put the structures in place. Yeah, well, let's look at some of that. I just want to add something. He has only touched on a whole lot of issues, very important issues that should be put in place. With over the years, since 1999, what has been the problem of Nigeria and I think the whole of Africa generally is the fact that there is inconsistency in government. There is no commitment in government and there's no continuity of government. When parties come, they just change. Any government takes over, change everything. Even the projects that could actually benefit the people are just truncated and start a new project. So I think the institutions and the processes should be such that it has to work. I think we need to build our institutions. Definitely. He talked about the enforcement of most of the institutions that could tackle corruption and indiscipline. But I think the general problem are all the institutions in Africa and that is why even the financial institutions themselves, the multilateral financial, they hammer on building our institutions. Our institutions are not strong. Our structures and processes are not working. And why is this the narrative of Africa? Well, I wouldn't say it's a narrative of Africa. Especially you, that you are the international. Yeah, you thought it was a narrative of Africa. But why is it a narrative? There's so much corruption. I think the issue of weak institutions in Africa is a fallout from the corrupt tendencies of leaders and managers of economies. The institutions are there, but they don't want these institutions to work very well. So sometimes you have someone who is not qualified. You put the person there to hear an institution. An institution that is supposed to contribute significantly to development in this country. What do you expect? You recruit people and recruit those who do not have the knowledge and experience to deliver the outcomes that you expect. So intentionally, people ensure that those institutions are not strong. And if you have weak institutions, there is no way that you can drag development. I think, let me just say, I don't say research I did in the South-South. Economic, I mean, insecurity and economic crime in the South-South. And in my conclusion, I said economic crime would never, I mean insecurity would never end. It would be very difficult to inhibit insecurity in the South-South because a lot of people are thriving from that insecurity to make a lot of money and all that. So you find out that, like you just said, our most peasants that man these institutions deliberately try to frustrate all the effort put into to make that institution work or the processes to work and all that. I think it's a change of mentality that we need to have in Africa. I don't understand why we Africans, we're not thinking about the future. You know, sometimes it backfors me when we talk about the fact that we are the giant of Africa. As a giant of Africa, you should leave that giant. You should work that giant. Well, the summit ended with world leaders agreeing that they wanted a transformation of the world's approach to the investment needed to leave countries out of poverty, overseas aid and the climate crisis and a roadmap to be set for fresh discussions and how to achieve these aims. They also agreed on a central principle that the finance needed would run into trillions, not billions, and that most of it would have to come from the private sector kickstarted by public money. Now, Christina Georgina, the MD of the IMF, has said that the summit is a success and that they have delivered on their promises. However, poverty and climate campaigners are saying that only a few concrete measures had been agreed at the summit and that it would make no difference. Your take on this as we wrap up. Let me start with you, Dr. Nozike. Well, the thing is, when she said that it was a success, I think she focused on the discussions and the high points of the summit and the agreements they were reached. But an agreement is an agreement. This is not the kind of substantive agreements that we have when we enter into contracts, but will they be implemented? Will they be driven to the point that the outcomes that we expect will come? And I keep talking about this because if you say that it's a success, to what extent was it a success? Yes, you may have agreed on a few things to be done in the future. But I think the success of it will depend on how the implementation is delivered. So the issue is not just about success. I think the central issue that was discussed at that summit was the issue of reallocation of special drawing rights. And I think that would really, really help to a large extent in moving resources to developing countries. Thank you. And what is critical is for African leaders to ensure that that is done. African movie, your final word, that's really my thought. I don't think what she meant wasn't the success. You know, in general terms, was just the success with regards to the outcome of the summit. Three things who could pick up from that summit. One is that climate change, the 100 billion in climate change is likely to be met this year. Secondly, $200 billion has been reallocated for lending capacity in the next few years. It was agreed upon. And other issues, which she talked about, the special drawing rights and all that, I think, yes. But the most important thing, which I agree with him, is it is one thing to promise and another thing to fulfill those promises. Yes, we have agreed. We are all happy that a new financial pact will be entered into in the next few years. But are they, developed countries, are developing partners, are they really committed to that pact, to what has been agreed on? Now, I will conclude by saying, some few years ago I wrote a paper title, a nautical title, One Country, One Continence Summit, where everybody is calling Africa, sit with Africa. And my argument was, this is not right. You, as a president, cannot call 54 presidents and they will all be shaking you, but I will sit down and listen to you talk to them. And eventually nothing comes out of it. I think Africa should begin to take its part of place. Many countries in this continent should begin to understand that they're independent countries and need to work for the greatness of Africa and their individual countries. And so this is where we should be focusing on. And his initial comment is that charity begins at home. Yeah, and then when they say that we are not beggars, we're not beggars, and you're still asking them for this aid and you're still receiving these aids and you're asking for grant for this, it just makes a mess of what you're saying and trying to say. They're always ready to give you this aid and they're always ready to give you the loans to keep you subservient. Many years ago I attended the conference in London, Business Action for Africa, beautiful speeches, outcomes, very good. But at the end of the day, what happened? So implementation. Have proper systems of governance in place and make sure that you implement to the letter of the... The question we should even be asking ourselves, how did India get to wait this? Is it true, multilateral, financial institutions or true development partner? How did China get to wait? How did China get to wait this? I think we have to learn from other countries. We have to create our own development model, establish a development model that is different from what is prescribed to us. You know, we need to move away from accepting prescription because sometimes they don't work. If it fails, just like you're sick, you take this particular medication, the doctor sees that it's not working, it has to change. So we need to begin to think out of the box. So Africa needs to think out of the box. African leaders need to come together with one strong voice and good intentions to clean up the system, make policies that work and build institutions that work. Thank you so much, gentlemen. FM Ubi, Astrid Professor, Acting Director of Research and Adurant Institute of International Affairs and Dr. Nasikaya Gouke, former CEO of John Holt PLC. Thank you so much for joining us on the breakfast this morning. Thank you, appreciate it. Well, thank you for being a part of the program this morning. That's the package you have for you this morning. Mindset Monday. I am Maureen Hemen-Nongwezi. We'll join us tomorrow for another episode of the Breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Good day. Coming over, future investment to the private sector and by removing the complex structures which makes NMPs accountability and assessment of efficiency almost impossible. See, there are so many layers upon layers, built on this simple thing, crude oil. I don't even know whether it's oil or some mystery around it that is taking the money from the central bank. See, I think we would demystify all these things. In my government, the daily export of crude will be published. At the price, at least, it is sold. You see, the issue of planned implementation is simple. You see, public things are not private. We have national assembly now. They will do their job. They will review the expenditure of government and will hold public caring. We will no longer be caring of monetary circulars from central bank without the bankers being told. The bankers will have to be involved. You see, like I said, every effort has been made in the past to save people's lives. It's made in the past to save people's head in their absence. It must stop. I mean, it won't be allowed. I mean, the cumulative wisdom of all the bankers will have seen us out of the problem we have in this country today. But some people, they come from IMF or they come from World Bank, what do they know about Nigeria? You see, the most brilliant doctor in Norway might not have seen malaria in his life. So it's bringing him here and imposing him as a medical director. It's like sending everybody to a grave. You see, all that nonsense will stop and rely on Nigerians to keep Nigeria running efficiently. And that's what it is. You see, there will be a few foreigners who will be recommended by our people, not those who will be imposed by some foreign authorities over us. We are independent, the public, under God. All right? We...