 Hi, welcome to CCTV Channel 17, live at 525 Preservation Burlington Show. I hope my eyes aren't going off to the side because I'm reading the cue card. Preservation Burlington is a non-profit, 501C3 organization whose mission is to preserve and protect the historic architecture and livability of Burlington through education and advocacy, which is part of our topic tonight. That's it. The next half is when we leave. I would like to thank everybody for tuning in. This is my friend Charlotte Vara, and she's the Community Preservation Manager for Historic New England in Vermont and stationed out here in Burlington. I had the time and I was lucky enough to attend your more than a market presentation last night at Champlain College, so Charlotte's agreed to be on the show and we're going to do a recap, but I really want to talk to you a little bit about, first, thank you for doing the show. Sure. Happy. Thank you for all that hard work. It was a really, really great presentation last night at Champlain College. I think it was pretty well attended, especially given we're all easing out of COVID and trying to get people into closed places again, you know, and Champlain was pretty thorough about it. But it was, say hi to our audience, and tell me about more than a market. I saw the presentation, so we don't need to go over that again, but I'm really interested in about, I mean, you've been here in Vermont for a while. You spent the last three years pulling this together. There's so much information. I know we'll show the website later on, but, you know, so tell me a little bit about what that was like. Well, Historic New England, we are a cultural heritage organization, regional, and one of the things, we have museum properties that are open to the public to visit. We also do a lot of programming related to local history, and this was a project that I was working on as part of that program, which is called Everyone's History. I got the idea because when I moved to Burlington, I was just noticing how many different markets there were, ethnic markets there were, and, you know, Halal markets, and Nepali markets, and Vietnamese markets. I just thought that was fascinating, and I did learn that Vermont, that this area is a refugee resettlement area, so it makes sense that this is an extremely diverse city for Vermont in particular. For Vermont, for sure. Yeah, you're right, right. Yeah, second-witest state in the Union. But I also, in the process of just learning about Burlington, had noticed that there was a multiple property documentation form that the city had started to fill out, a national register form for a saltice grocery store in the former, like, little Jerusalem area of the Old North End. And I just got to thinking about this sort of continuity between these old markets, and knowing that Burlington was settled by a lot of, you know, various waves of immigrants. Right, I was just going to say that, waves. And so, and just kind of looking for the connections, the differences, the similarities, the experiences, and just found it fascinating that some of these current markets are in old market storefronts. In the footprints. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's kind of how the project started. So, the more things change, the more they are, you know. Yeah. Like you said, the continuity, the similar experiences of these different waves of immigrants through time. Right, right. And that sort of food is a universal. We all need to eat. We all have, well, most of us appreciate food and we have certain recipes we love or food traditions. And so, thinking about that as a sort of a unifier during a time that was very divisive in this country and especially around immigration. So, that was really where I started. Oh, so you mean like sort of currently, but it's always been that way. Oh, yeah. But thinking about trying to create a project around commonalities rather than differences. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the fact that there are many people here that are descendants of immigrants now. And we often forget that. Yes, exactly. That we're really all immigrants. Right. Maybe it was, you know, from, it was British, but it's still an immigrant. Yeah, right, right, right. There's some Abinacis that can say they were, you know, here, but everybody else came here. Yeah, right, right. And settled and did these things. And like you said, that's the funny, the food is that thread through all of that. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, that was your idea. So, I mean, again, what's the name of the, so this is more than a market. The overall history. Yeah. So, we decided to develop sort of through different parts of this project to provide different means of access in terms of what, how people would enjoy learning about this, the subject. So, the sort of culminating component was this exhibit that we are going to be opening on June 27th at the Old North End Community Center on the third floor. Where the offices of AAALV are, and AAALV is a service organization that helps newly arrived people kind of acclimate, become familiar with living in this country, finding different services they need. So it seemed like a really appropriate place to put this exhibit because we wanted it accessible not just to people like you and me, but the people about whom this project is. Right. They're coming to this country. They're coming. They're this next wave. So they're going to see all the people that came before them doing the same thing. And you and I, and people that have been here for a long time, can go in and also share that same space and see that same story. Right. That's a great idea. And so people can, you know, we wanted the people whom we were interviewing because this was very much an oral history project, both descendants of the early market owners and current day market owners and their customers. And we want, those were the voices we wanted to share. We really felt that those, they were the creators of this exhibit essentially. You take away all those voices. There isn't much of an exhibit. Last night I really enjoyed when you were reading directly from people's statements, you know. And not to give you too many compliments, but you did a really good job because, you know, it was very visibly not your words, you know. So you were sort of dragging us into these, the thoughts, feelings and the syntax of other people and how they communicate. And I mean, I think it was easier for me to do that because I had done the interviews for the most part. And so I had been there with that person listening to how they expressed that particular thought. Mary Rizos, who was the photographer for the project and was sort of subcontracting through the Vermont Folklife Center, she did a lot of the on-the-spot interviews with customers in the markets. And I did the interviews with the market owners. And those were sit-down, more formal interviews. And hers were more, would you be interested in talking to me about this? And so, yeah, those were the, she and I sort of shared that. So the Vermont Folklife Center, so what were the partnerships that you pulled together to make this? So you have the idea? You know, it's a great idea. Yeah. So it was a lot of talking to people and, you know, just, I look back on my emails when I was trying to figure out how many people had been involved. And there was a good eight months of just laying the groundwork for it by talking to everybody from local politicians to service organizations to preservation people, immigrant organizations. And so eventually put together a partnership with, well, we contracted with Burlington Edible History, Gail Rosenberg and Elise Gayette to do the historical research for the Burlington markets. And they also put together the walking tour that we offer. And then the Winooski Historical Society, Joe Perrin helped with doing the historical research in Winooski, which I did. And then AALV and the Vermont Folklife Center. Those were the partners that I worked with. And really, you know, we had a couple of advisory meetings, but then other than that, it was just me shooting an email to somebody and asking for some advice. So, yeah, that's... Trying to pull all that information together. Yeah. Yeah. Get out there. I mean, it's a really interesting project. I love that. And everybody, you know, I think so. My career started in New York City when there's bodegas all over New York City. Yeah. They get handed down and handed down. Yeah. And that started your talk with some of the turnover even recently, you know. So, you know, Nepalese market going to the next generation or the next people that came here as somebody else moves to Pennsylvania or somewhere. Right. Right. So, how did you... I mean, did you just start going to every single market? Well, we... In terms of the historical markets, both Gail and Elise and Burlington and I and Winooski started with looking at city directories. And we sort of started back in the, you know, the mid to late, kind of the late, I would say the late 19th century and kind of brought it forward to the 1950s or so. And just looked for market names that lasted for a long time. And then that was one thing we looked for in terms of choosing the old markets. We also then looked at, you know, census. We did some research on those families. We looked for obituaries because that sometimes helped us contact a family member. Like we would see a name, like surviving survivors for other family members. And that's how we would find somebody who could talk to us about that market. So that's how we found the people that we would interview, that I would interview. It's a lot of detective work. It's a lot, yeah. And it's a real rabbit hole. I love doing it. So, Ancestry is so... It's very dangerous when you like to do that sort of thing. Right. Yeah. Hours and hours. So then we also wanted to sort of have a good mix of the different cultures that had come here. And that was another way we decided on those. And then as far as the contemporary ones, it was, you know, that was trickier because, you know, you have to think about walking into a market and saying, hey, we want you to do a project with us. You know, you're coming from a very different cultural vantage point. And there's a language barrier, just cultural differences. And so in that case, we reached out to AALV. There was somebody at AALV who introduced us to a couple of market owners and tried to, you know, kind of encourage them to consider working with us. Yeah, translate a little bit. Yeah. And so that was a little bit more of finding somebody who could introduce us so that there was a feeling of trust about this. Because in a way, it's like, why should I do that? Like, what's why? Yeah. What's the benefit for me? What could be the repercussions? Yeah. And you know. Especially if you're new to a place. Yeah. I mean, I know that there's got to be a level of, you know, fear and, you know, not paranoia really, but you're just, you're new to a place. Yeah. You're new. You know what the authorities are interested in or who's contacting you. Right. And a lot of the market owners are coming from, you know, kind of situations in their homelands where they dealt with a lot of trauma and distrust and that sort of thing. And so you really want to respect that. And we didn't really, I never brought up the subject of, I really tried to keep our conversations focused on the market. And because talking to survivors of trauma is so complex and I'm, I by no means am trained in that sort of thing, but was interesting that a few people that I talked to really wanted to talk about it and then others did not want to. And well, I didn't ask them, but they didn't volunteer it so, and others volunteered it. And so anyway, you know, it's very different to be talking to descendants who really didn't have the lived experience of coming to this country, but they did have the lived experience of the market and then market owners who had the experience of leaving voluntarily or involuntarily. Right. From some other culture and coming here, you know, and again, the market is the thread that binds, right? Yeah. So even through generations. Yeah. And I remember you were mentioning that, you know, some of the older generations, the historic markets, you know, and then their children all worked the markets and then some of them took over the market or, you know, but we're now more recent immigrants are here and they really make a push for their children to live a different lifestyle. Right. So they come here looking happily working super hard because it's not an easy lifestyle, right? It's always, it's not an eight hour day. No, it's practically a 24 seven job really. And, you know, they're up early and closing late and they want their kids to go to college and have a different job and a different life in America than they have. Yeah. Yeah. I got to say a couple of times during the talk, I got verclimbed because you were talking about certain things like that, you know, and I just, I kind of sympathize or empathize and relate to that struggle and, you know, it's, and again, you know, the drawing the line through the years, you know, so what historic immigrants went through. Maybe it was two generations for their kids to get out of that struggle or that hardware and now, you know. And, you know, there was certainly discrimination back then to, you know, especially like the French Canadians and the Irish. I wish we did not apply. Right. And so there was that experience, but I think these markets and these very kind of close communities surrounding these markets were really a support for people. And it was a place that felt, always felt safe and continues to feel like a place you can go where you can speak that language, where people get it because they, the owner, him or herself had that experience. And so they're, they have a lot of advice on how to get settled. Yeah, he mentioned it. It's more, it's not just the market, right? It's like a social club. Yeah. For people that have experienced the same thing and they're selling a product that, you know, culturally relates to those people that go there. So that's the, again, the bond and then they get to share that experience. So yeah, it's, it's, it's an amazing dynamic that's not changed that much, right? Yeah. No, it hasn't really, you know, obviously the world has changed and people don't shop the same way anymore. Right. You know, you can even buy your groceries online and you, you know, a lot of people have cars, but or, or they take public transportation. A lot of these markets were, you know, they were smack dab in the middle of neighborhoods. There were some in between houses and, and so you just walked everywhere. So different in that way. Yeah. And there wasn't refrigeration in the, you know, till later. And so people bought, shopped more frequently so that things would stay fresh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, that's another socioeconomic, you know, part of it, you know, so the small markets we have are still serving that role. You know, I remember when they moved the, the co-op from right, right here to downtown, you know, and they were worried about people having to walk farther to, to get food and it was, you know, expanding and stuff. And that's, that's a real concern for some of the neighborhoods, you know. And these markets continue to, to take care, to fill that niche for those folks, you know. I feel really lucky. I was, my nephew wanted some Bosnian dried meat. I didn't know what that was. He heard about it. And I worked with a friend of mine's Bosnian. I worked with him and I was like, you know, so I went to the Euro market. And I, so I didn't say it last night. There's a lot of people, a lot of questions, you know. But when I went there, you know, I was like, I don't know what I'm looking for. You know, I got a friend who gave me a little bit of advice and I walked in and I asked him and they were so happy to try and show me and share and tell me what was good and what wasn't good and what my nephew was like, you know. And then I bought it and I have to be, I'm a little embarrassed. I brought it to work and I was asking my other friend how to ship it to my nephew and he said, oh, you can order it online and have it shipped directly. But you gave that market business. I did. And then he and I ate it. So I never sent it and it was really good. And we shared that experience of some other kind of food that I had never had. And I was like, oh, he's showing me how to cut it and, you know, and it was great. And I wouldn't, you know, sorry Dylan. I wouldn't have had he not asked me for that. I probably wouldn't have strolled into that market like you said, you know. Right, right, yeah. I don't think of it. But somebody last night said that they also want to start shopping more locally now. Yeah. And it's funny because when I, the dotto at that market, he has two women that used to be customers and they now work at the front counter quite a bit. And they're so great. They're so helpful about, you know, looking at when I was, I can't remember if I was talking to dotto about mayonnaise and they sell mayonnaise in tubes. And you know, it was just so fascinating to talk to these women. I bought a tube of mayonnaise because they said, we just love our mayonnaise so much better. It's got so much more flavor. And it really is. It's so fascinating to try it and go, yeah, you really taste the difference. So yeah, it's really fun to try things at these markets. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do enjoy that. You said that last night too. You went in for one thing to some place and you chatted with people and you left with an arm load of stuff because you did all these new things. Try this. Try this. Right, right. That's really, it was, so you enjoyed it. It was a, I mean, it's a lot of work. Yeah. Three years of pulling this together and interviewing so many people, you know? Yeah. But you know, I'm really pleased with how everything has evolved and you know, the walking tour gives people the chance to be out and about and maybe hear about some markets that aren't really part of the project, but they happen to be on our tour route. And it's nice to see things and like be in the space of these neighborhoods. And then the web app is a ton of historical information and lots of audio from the interviews. And then- And that's, you can link to that from HistoricNewEngland.org or- Yeah, so you can go, the web app? Yeah. Yeah. You can access it. It's under like virtual exhibits or something like that. I can't quite remember, but. It's pretty easy to find. I pulled it up yesterday. Yeah. And I walked away from the tour, I went home and I pulled it up to just look at everything. And you know, it's pressuring you to do the show, so I thought. And then at the exhibit, we will have the content translated into four languages. So Arabic, Nepali, Somali, and Swahili. And we talked to AALV about which languages, if we had only limited ability to do it, would be the most would they suggest. So those were the ones we did. And we had them, the whole exhibit translated into each of those languages. And then I sat down with somebody who actually read the content and recorded it so people can listen to audio as well if they are not interested in reading it or they aren't able to read in their language. Cool. So yeah. There's so many, so many parts to that, you know. Yeah. And it's important though, because this exhibit, you know, is, we want it accessible. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, what immigrant populations are less adept at English yet? Yeah. You know, like my Bosnian friend always tells me his English is much better than my Bosnian. Yeah. And he's right. Yeah. Yeah. So they could read it and stuff. So what else is going on? We're, you know, what's your next project? So this is a big, huge thing. Yeah. I sadly have to start to let it go. I am working. Yeah. But you've brought it to fruition. Yeah. And there'll be little, you know, there are things already growing out of it that will sort of happen on the side, but I won't be working on it so in such a focused way. But I'm now turning my attention to a project about early 20th century kit and plan-built houses in Burlington and really within sort of a broader framework of worker, middle-class housing. So, you know, we have a pretty good feel, feeling that there are quite a few kit houses like Sears, Aladdin here because first of all, the location, there was two rail lines coming into Burlington. Two things in, yeah. And then also, you know, Burlington was growing as many cities were in terms of moving away from, shifting away from industry to more of a service industry and professional population at the university and the medical center. So the neighborhoods, you know, the city was expanding. And then also just the rail, the streetcar was helping to expand the city itself and a lot of the biggest states were breaking up in the farmland. Yeah. So we really have these little neighborhoods of these small-scale, very compact houses, some of which are probably kits, but most of which are probably built from plans, you know, that builders, local contractors could pick up at, plan books, they could pick them up at the lumber store or the hardware store or whatever and use those plans to build. So, so that's my next... That's fun. That's going to be fun. Yeah. We had a, you know, one of the home stores on Gove Court, I think, there's a kit home, a Sears kit home that was on the home store and it's just, it's really, they're neat. Yeah. The idea of them are neat. They're, like you said, you know, everybody with the tiny house movement and all this stuff. Yeah. You know, they're just so compact and like efficient and, you know, they are. Love them. You know that, you know, we struggle, we struggle in Burlington, you know, because people buy them and they want to, like, change them or knock them down or build something bigger, a big, gigantic addition off the back. I almost said ugly addition, but I didn't, but you know... It could be a very attractive, oversized addition. Exactly. And we're like... Yeah. But it's indicative of an era and a time and people are like, you know, they often roll their eyes and I'm like, no, you know, there's waves of this development But it's so important to tell those, that story and make people understand that. Yeah. And I mean, I think the first step is really just raising public awareness of this period of housing and the fact that it was really providing an opportunity for, you know, a rising middle class to actually own rather than rent. And also it just kind of dovetailed with, you know, a lot of other modern, like industrial changes, you know, manufacturing, you know, assembly lines so that you could get... There was modern was, you know, the thing. Yeah, yeah. There was all these products now that provided, you know, plumbing, like it was plumbing became accessible to more people and having a kitchen that was equipped with appliances and a vacuum cleaner and all these things were happening at the same time. And they were sort of symbols of sort of a certain leveling off of or a growing of this sort of middle, sort of majority middle, really. Yeah, yeah, middle class, sort of burgeoning middle class with this opportunity and these things going on. Yeah. So, which, you know, not to get political, but it's really important right now, especially with what Burlington is experiencing, the nation is experiencing with housing, you know, it was an opportunity where people could have a starter home. People could move into neighborhoods where they're, you know, and we've, I think we're moving away from that in a lot of ways and we're not appreciating it or embracing it or embracing the ones we have. Right. You know, you take one of those houses and you make it huge, then the next people can't really step in with their family when you're ready to move on. Right, yeah. And they were, you know, before the term sustainable or energy efficient, we're even part of our lexicon, they were sort of inherently that. And so, yeah, it's kind of like it's not really a new thing. When you talk about new urbanism or small, you know, walkable neighborhoods, these were all that. Yeah. It's all been a thing already, you know, like all of human history. We've done it over and over and over again. Let's learn from it, you know. Yeah, exactly. Take the best of it. Well, that's cool. That's going to be a fun project. Yeah. I'm looking forward to that. So anything else you want to pitch while we're here? Yeah. Historic New England is holding its first ever, but it will be an annual event summit. And this will be on October 13th and 14th in Worcester, Massachusetts. And it's really something that we want to do each year to bring together sort of leaders in the arts, in preservation, in museums, in planning, and bring people together to sort of really talk about shared challenges and solutions. And it could be around climate change or inclusivity. A lot of museums, including Historic New England, are re-evaluating how they've told stories and whose stories they've told. And so it's really an opportunity for us to bring together people who are interested in sort of meeting sort of this century and some of the changes that are sort of on us. It is ambitious and it's going to happen every year. Are you going? Of course. Okay. Well, I'll probably go. Yeah. It is. It touches on everything that we're all concerned with and that we're working towards. So thanks. Thank you for so many things, but thanks for putting that whole more than a market together. Yeah. I know there's a lot of work. Thanks for coming on the show and doing the recap. Yeah. And I just appreciate Historic New England. You guys are the foremost, obviously, in this region pulling these things together and being a leader in so many ways. So I'm really glad that they have a footprint in Vermont and I'm really glad that you're here doing these things. So thanks again. Yeah. It's been great and I really honestly couldn't do it without my partners here. The people I've built relationships with, like Preservation Burlington or the city of Burlington or the Vermont Folklife Center, I'm the only staff person here. So those are incredibly valuable relationships to make these things happen. Yes. Team. I want to thank everybody for tuning in to CCTV, live at 525 in the Preservation Burlington show. For more information on Burlington history, our tours and events, if you get a market for your house, go to www.preservationburlington.org and historicnewengland.org and we'll see you next month. Thanks. Thanks.