 Thank you very much, everybody. We are about to recommence. Also from me, my name is Sarkis Cetia. I work as a postdoc at the Development for Community Designs in ST. And I have the pleasure to introduce to you Niels Christel Andersen. And Niels is the Head of Faculty for Science and Technology. Niels received his PhD from the University in 1990 and continued his academic career first as an assistant professor and then a associate professor and in 2004 he became the fourth professor for the Department of Chemistry. His research is on the development and use of nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy which enables visualization of molecules with a degree of detail that you can actually see the individual atoms. He has also had more than 200 publications and has received prestigious research prizes and has also scored substantial research funding. He's also been an active figure in research policy through a number of funds, sports and councils. Most recently the Danish Research Policy Council. Niels grew up on a farm and sure to have understood Andersen's saying about being born in Orchage he became native by the Queen of Denmark in 2009. Fun fact, his two brothers also work for the Orchage University and his twin brother is professor for medicine. Today Niels will give us some updates on the EU actions plan for more women in research and maybe also what we're going to do about these pressing numbers that we just saw previously in the previous talk. So please join me in welcoming Niels Grasthenach Niels. Thank you very much for this very kind introduction, also detailing many aspects. I'll not cover all of it, I would actually be tempted to take a basic lecture in the mass spectroscopy but I think that would not be appropriate here, I think we should address what is the topic of the conference. So first of all I would like to thank the organizers of the Junior Research Association for actually taking the initiative to take this conference on a topic that is extremely important very important that we address this also we not only discuss it but we also try to get some solutions try to get some actions so I think it is extremely important. So thank you very much for taking this initiative and also for inviting me as the sole male speaker today. So that's very good. So the title of my presentation is what is the status on our university's actions. So what I'm talking about is not only what it is at ST but a science technology but also in a more broad sense and the subtitle and I think I'm not sure I invented that myself but let's address it anyway what and why things have not been done. We're trying to do a lot of things but obviously the status could indicate that we should do even more so I think that's probably appropriate. And then I have a hope that is this one connected to something. There it is and that should be where? Yeah? Wow, a table. Yes, so why are we addressing this? That is because it is simply a necessity to actually handle the challenges. If we do not bring in female talent then we will lose on all parameters. We lose on the work environment. We lose on the quality of the science. We lose on education. We lose on innovation. We lose also in having an attractive place to work. All of these things are obviously extremely important so if you look at it from an organization point of view can you afford not to work on better science, better education, better innovation and the parameters we try to measure on. And I think the simple answer to this is no, we have to address this and what we do today is not sufficiently given up to these goals. I think what we should work on is diversity in a broader sense. We should have more female, we should have more international people and we should have more at least this is the same we have to work on a diverse faculty in all branches and there's actually measurements that shows that if you don't do what is easiest that is to work with those you know, those that has the same name I think. I'm in a population of many Milsens so I could select only to work with Milsens but the quality would not be very good. We have to work with people of different gender, different international sex so this is very important. Measures shows this. So the first slide is the easy one. There's no doubt that we should handle this with curiosity. So OSU University has for a long time and that's often if I say it's for a long time then you also request that we have good results because working a long time then you should also be able to show that you have good results. But I have to be honest here and say when I entered as dean in 2013 I was already working on, people were working on trying to establish action plans for OSU University to do this. There was an action plan that took a while to set up. In 2016 we were set up an action plan of OSU University from 2016 to 2020. That is broad. It has a lot of topics what can we do and it was debated a lot what is the action problem and what can we actually do about it. So before we make an action plan obviously we have to understand the problem. That is different from different departments, from different faculties because actually there's some departments we actually don't have a problem. There's actually a completely equal gender population. But there's definitely also departments where it's not the case and if you take the overall average there's far too few females. But what I'm saying with this is the action plans has to be different depending on what is the action issue. If we take in the science and technology if we look into the department of animal science there's a lot of females that actually could have the reverse problem but that should be more amazing. I'm not saying we should do that. I'm saying if you take computer science and mathematics these more tough natural sciences obviously it's a very different picture. So it's very diverse. And that means also that when we put the targets in we put ambitions in that there's a diversity over the university we have to take into account. There is my ministeral focus on this. There's a yearly follow up on the gender balance and following up on the individual targets. There's yearly discussions taking place in all the councils that we have because this is a broad issue and we're trying to take it up in all the fora we have. For two reasons obviously to inform what is going on that is always important you have to do this this is an important issue. But I think also this dialogue actually also pushes us to it's not fun to present too many times not that you don't receive any you don't reach the goals so I think that's also to keep us up to focus. So overall at all universities there's a lot of attention on this and what is the focus obviously if the leadership is not taking its areas then that could be a risk it will not be taking its areas. So that's one of the things. Then we have a lot of focus on the input. We have the composition of the faculties as they are now in the sense that most of the faculty is recruited that's why it's the faculty. So we don't go out to fire people to change the gender balance. So obviously you have to look at the input. The input is recruitment and how you employ people how do you make career tracks, how do you make it attractive to come in and also what we do actually in the recruitment process. So the input is important. Then it's also important that you do some internal actions that is talent development. It's also in particular in the environments where there's a huge difference in gender then obviously you also need to work on culture. You need to work on that it is actually attractive. It's not sufficient that we go out and say you should be employed here as these employment contracts are dual obviously the one we try to employ also have to say yes I actually want to be employed there. So we also have to work on the culture we have to work on making attractive workplace for women. I think actually that is an extremely important point because if you think the environment is not attractive then you don't come, then we can do whatever we do with the recruitment. Then we also look at mobility. I think there's also and I think now unfortunately I didn't hear a kind of presentation but it's also very important that you consider that you don't change it if you do what you always has done and if you don't have open calls if you have only one applicant for each position and things like that then you don't have influence. You don't have something that changes the picture. So that is also very important. So mobility on all aspects is very important. And then removing barriers. It's obviously when we recruit there could be special issues as if you practice here and things like that that is different between genders. So obviously we also have to make sure that we remove barriers where you say instead of just have a career track where you just publish such and such you have to consider the elements that could be periods of your life where before you get attracted to a position you don't have the same ability to deliver on normal parameters but also why you're high. There's differences and we have to compete. So if we address recruitment we have tried to put up some norms for recruitment and that's the reason for bringing this up here is that some of these are important here. Some of them you might say it's counterbalancing. I'm trying to take the overall picture here and obviously the first thing is we need to have many applicants for all positions. It has to be open calls it has to be calls that is not tied down to a specific topic saying we only hire this person that has crowd qualification XYZ it's sort of that means eventually that there's only one applicant. So broad open advertisements that is very important. Search committees if you look into other areas if you look into industry if you look into football if you look into other areas not to compare it with football I'm just saying that it is also very important that we don't only just have an advertisement somewhere it's also important that we are active and that we actually go out and identify the talent that is present out there and you can say now if you are in areas where there's globally few females then obviously more difficult to go out and find them and actually encourage them to apply. So it's not sufficient just to have open calls also need to have recruitment committees and that's something we gradually have established over the first last couple of years at least now actually also in the other factors so we don't see the effect yet. React first if there's too few qualified applicants I think that also is something that current said that in my opinion the qualified applicant in my opinion that's not enough. Members of assessment committee should be external. I think that's also important here because we need to have a diverse assessment committees also the gender issues there is also important but that it has to be external that also means that we put them up with a different balance than we have at present. My tips we are sitting in the appointment committee so we actually look at what is happening we look into long-term space at international topics that's something that debate a lot is that and advances a lot but I think mobility is extremely important here internal candidates cannot be promoted to permanent positions without winning an open competition that means eventually promotion one could say that's two sides of this should we prevent promotion no we should actually have a good faculty so we should have progression but now if all the openings actually are promotions then that's not coming people in so it has to be an open course. So that's some of the things we do on the employment side. Then we look at the statistics how does it look at the university level and I know there was some graphs earlier on but it's not exactly these. Okay I apologize these are in Danish in this let's explain how this is this is PST postdocs then it's assistant professor associate professor professor sips of different kind with special obligation or normal professor sips and this one that's the years obviously we had a plan that goes out to 2020 so I apologize we don't have the numbers for the last ones but that means we have the ambition to follow this also for the coming years. Green means that we have balance then obviously one can discuss is balance how we define I think we define balance as if you have between 40 and 60 percent could go in both directions females then it's balance. You might argue it should be strictly 50-50 so that's what we consider balance that's when it's green when it's red it's below 30 percent so if you look at the graph here just look at the colors don't dig in all the numbers here you'll say where it's green we don't have so much of problem you'll see some progress here but where we have the major progress is in the initial layers of the careers ladder that means at the PhD postdoc associate professor there it seems that there's there's a less of a problem but now if you go down to the end of the careers there you also have to consider here the end of the careers is also many of those is progressed by hirings that was earlier on so there's also a history dimension in this so that it is here it's not the so puzzling because now if you had a policy that was even worse than we have today then you would see that in the ladder categories that's not to accuse it I'm just saying the major problem we have is here that's not the same as we don't have problems here also we can do it better is that okay well I don't know whether it's okay but I'm just saying you understand it you'll receive the facts so good so then if we look at the apartments so this one here was the status that's the population we're talking about this one here is what is happening on the apartments again saying we don't fire to get a better gender balance so it's the input that is important to look at well then you get the same cause it's sort of the same diagram and then you might say well that should obviously be much more green that's the way to change it and it is not we have some yellow red yellow green type of things coming down to the last ones here so there is something happening but it is going slowly we have this one here so it's less red but it's going it's going it's not going extremely fast then you also have to look at how many do we actually influx that's also an issue and where do we influx people and that could explain some of the things it's not an excuse but now if you for example look at the different faculties and we'll have these graphs a little bit later on then obviously we say now if you take big initiatives like you're hiring much more digitization people and much more engineers then obviously don't make it easier to achieve the overall numbers here make them look better because you actually are digging into the more complex areas but this is how the numbers are and obviously what we strive to is to get these numbers more and more green here so that is the action plan I'm showing you numbers that is best this one is very much red it's just different places you can look into hiring committees if you don't have equal gender balance in the hiring committees it could be you have a bias I'm not saying that this is necessarily such that if it was not gender balance that you were in wrong decisions I'm just saying one of the things you could look at there you have an issue actually you start to get actually yellow here at the professional level I think actually that is positive and you should consider in the in these areas here we didn't have so much of a problem because these were green so I think now if one should digest the colors here a little bit I would say this is not the biggest problem the biggest problem is what we're doing here and actually here you see some changes some moves that we actually are at the various departments focused on that we need to have a reasonable gender balance in the committees one problem with these committees here is that if you have a very skew gender balance at the departments could be 10% female and you but a lot of the assessment committees have three members one is a woman then you have the yellow up here so you never become green if you have three members basically smaller than three so it depends from faculty to faculty to department to department how many you have but you're right there's a measure issue I agree what I would like to address is that this is a balance because in all committees everything we do we should have females we should have gender balance in all our committees but the problem there is if you're in areas where there's only 10% females and they should sit in committees then we don't make a very attractive workplace because they're completely come in and most of the time is sitting in committees so it's something we have to do with balance so what I'm saying is that the factors are trying to make this more equal but I'm just saying it can be difficult in different places just a quick question is there now a rule in the assessment committees that must be at least one woman what we do right now is we set the targets and we have the expectation it works and when it doesn't work then obviously as management we have to be tougher and tougher we could also put the request in the search committees we need to have exposed female applicants for all positions that rule you could invoke it could be at some time we need to invoke that rule if we don't move the numbers then it could be we have to do things like that so the strategy and the management plan from various departments and said well that is your solution to this and we actually respect that this is what you put in place and we obviously look at you whether you received the goals so not yet it could be we leave it then as I mentioned last differences between factors I'll show this there's also within the factors there's very much a difference between the departments and even some departments need to more main resources to achieve gender equality that is not the most departments I would say though so there's diversity so if you look at arts the same graphs now get smaller and smaller but now you have learned the color coding what is up and down this is the years this is the career ladder so if you look at arts I think the numbers is not looking so bad they do a good job in having and including instead of competitive culture they are not seen to make more female research apply for funding etc etc so here it doesn't look too bad also I should say they probably also started from a better starting point but still that's not where it's worst they are looking at all the places here also and so they are focused on it if you look at the business social sciences it is also pretty green everywhere and they are also doing a good job and have something that come close to balance but again here it is on the most senior positions to have the biggest problem it's still present and they also have a number of primary accent points what is faculty addressing specifically what is the issues there if you go from the not negative speaking but the more dry areas to the more wet areas we start to see increasing issues not least if you come to the final position so this is for health and they are also trying to address different things and what you see in there all these up for the various factors but everyone tackle in a different way and I think that's actually positive in the sense that they have different challenges at different factors and obviously you need to address these issues by respecting this diversity I think this is very important but here actually looks good and what could be an explanation for this is obviously now what is the competition of those you educate so it starts very early it starts already in the basics school it starts high school so you have sort of a selection process and in health I don't have the number but there's definitely a lot of female students if you have a large number of talent growing up there then obviously you also have more to pick from so that means eventually you will see effects from this also but definitely on the professor level it's completely red not good enough then we don't take this slide so this is how we have the biggest issue that comes from the natural consequence that if you look at also the student attraction to various studies it gets more and more red the more you go to the hardcore science areas that's what we know that means eventually there it's obviously more difficult and you see that all the way to the student level you see it the PhD level you see it in some areas it is more difficult than others so if you blend this in then obviously at science technology you would also expect that's where you have the biggest chances but that's not the same that that is acceptable because actually you would put it the other way it's us that loses most this because when you write that as these pretty many sciences in engineering field science it indicates it indicates that that's only for men most of the degrees there is now probably men but it's something about how you put it you also said that computer science was that was more tough no I didn't say that I think this here is to present to you the numbers it's not to make an advertisement I'm just trying to say you have more historical issues there I agree every page you want but you see that all the way in the education system you see it also earlier on you are completely right you should have the right it starts very early so now there is a lot of focus on the STM education lines the same agenda so it gets more for family success there are certain trends in the different schools of the university and so at the adjunct level especially what you have is huge preparations from year to year so is this new recruitment that you are showing us you have red then you have yellow then you have green you have yellow red again this is a very different trend so I'm wondering perhaps you could expand on why this might be in some years you have and then in the next year you have a completely now obviously color coding here now at the numbers you will say there are fluctuations obviously you have the risk that it goes from 39% to 40% and then you switch in color we follow these fluctuations not such that we change policy from year to year and then one year we are successful because we did something we actually have a lot of continuous focus on improving this so the fluctuations are something we read out when we have higher people this is all the opening that's all the hierarchs I think it's a bit naive to go oh there are a lot of women in biology because when we go to the professor level we don't have so we go from this majority in your undergrad and your PhD and that doesn't necessarily that's not visible and we have a lot of women in biology across the world for a really long time and it's still not reflecting in the professorship so I think it might be a little naive to go oh well we're getting a lot of women down here so in a few years we're going to see it because actually we don't see it here that's not what I'm saying I'm just saying we have the population that we can definitely get from and I think this is important I'm not so naive that I say that this is the same as we solve the problem with the career ladder within the university that's one thing another thing that is important is that we make our positions sufficiently attractive that women actually want to apply for them so that's so I'm not that naive I'm just saying if the pool to take from is bigger then at least well you could say you have no excuse left because so I'm just putting the numbers up I'm not trying to so I think the fair thing is to see the numbers and then take action from the numbers and what I'm saying is that we have an issue here this is not sufficiently good I agree fully with what you said we have actually an even bigger problem if we have a big pool to take from so this one is our numbers and there you can see the MSO is right but we don't last it doesn't hire anyone there so this is an excuse I'm just saying it is on all the latter career steps we have we have a problem this is a serious problem I think we have to make much more effort and make the right image why is it attractive to be here because I think actually there's it's just a matter it's a matter of two times it could be the females that don't want us it could be us that don't have the right processes to attract the females but I think actually back post goes back to us because if the females doesn't think it's a good place to make a career then we don't get them and we should work on this I don't try to be naive I'm only trying to present the numbers can I ask a question to the last the numbers for the post dog and the numbers how long are those positions and who gets those positions post dog positions are not necessarily three years adjunct positions are not necessarily three years so can you say something about that with your numbers who gets sort of the good positions like the three year young position and who is sort of jumping from position to position to position I don't have the specific numbers here but the typical post dog period is something like three years we don't have the normal the way that we what do we call it? that's called there are regulations how we hire people in universities there are strict rules on how long time people can be in various steps so you're not allowed to be post dog for 10 years or something like that you do have to this is to be four years etc so what these numbers how what kind of positions do they reflect are eight months positions everything all all so can you positions or is it just the short ones versus the long ones no I don't have these numbers not at present obviously we can find them but I don't we can find these numbers we know what the contracts are we know who we hire so obviously but I think actually I would I would assume that there's no difference in between the population of post dogs that has more females in the short periods and males in the long I wouldn't guess so but obviously one could look I think actually what one should look at is that the 20 souls here it is moving positively in not permanent positions I think the big barrier is to have we want to move people associate assistant professor here that that covers two things it covers committed assistant professor that is tenure track assistant professor that is those that is on a track and also there is assistant professor that has not promised to be there so I think what the barriers is exactly here how do we get more female passing this barrier that goes from the loose positions to the permanent positions that's where we have it that's where you see the call shift I don't think it's so much inside the various categories of post dogs or PSDs or I think it's this barrier that is the most important but to make the distinction because as you also emphasized if you have one post dog of one year then you have to be prolonged and you have to be prolonged those are the factors that make people leave many of those at ST at least most of these one here is driven by external funding projects and they have a certain duration so when you do this it's not to bring it up to small pieces but it is because of the funding mechanism they're going in they're part of research projects that is typically have a limited research limited periods so there's no intention to have them short by I think it is the body thing that maybe we should possibility to have a longitudinal approach and check what are the chances of successfully reach a permanent position when you are in this university and that is not really reflected here we know I mean we know the general but if you look longitudinally to one person so what are the chances you get a position and how many years does it take for you to get a position longer if you're a woman or not that would be maybe something more serious though I agree on this but I think we talk the same language we have the barrier is how do you pass this one here and that applies to the fully university how do you get more females into the permanent positions that is the basic question so that is what we're working on and the only thing we can do here is that we recruit more females and that is therefore all the action plans on the recruitment this is very very important how is our recruitment processes so that's one side of it that's the only way we can pass this barrier the next one is we need to have a culture that also invites the female to think well actually I want to work here I think maybe it's a little bit too aggressive but only recruitment may be a little bit naive and in the sense that once that you are recruited you need an internal support and let's face it sometimes you have to work against males within your environment that has enormous supports of already existing professors around and that actually you know that's a positive thing actually so when you I think the mentoring at the level of highest positions to actually make sure that the certain persons are not left behind it's also important that you're recruited but once that you are recruited the department really wants you but that was it that was that was the press but that was exactly why I have two sentences the one was recruitment and the other one was the culture thing so I think that was exactly what you were saying I actually said both things because I think both things are important yes now I don't know who someone is following the time I guess because they're not too many questions we'll take one more here because we also have a few slides of what we're doing actually I don't know who is you and we don't focus in how do they change their attitude because it's impossible sometimes when you have a position in some ways even if you're a student in mostly this kind of careers surrounded by men to success because you are shy to express yourself and I came from a very macho society I'm from Mexico and even here I feel more comfortable when I talk with women and also among women instead of men because it's like I feel good and for me nicer to speak between women and even if happens here I think that we have to focus more in that kind of actions rather than the numbers I mean the numbers are important but the culture and for men are more important than women and obviously in the both sides but I think that's exactly why because you sort of said before and I understand that so it's not to defend myself I'll just say before I addressed here engineering and computer science these things the more it goes into that direction more difficult actually the reason there is exactly what you addressed there because there's fewer role models there's fewer that you guys can identify yourself with a career and that makes it so it was not to make any discrimination between fields and women relative to certain fields had nothing with that to do what it has to do with the more you have it equally balanced the easier it is for those potential candidates to identify some they say well I want to make a career like her or him or so I think the role model is very important so let's try to go a little bit on because I have three minutes here so we actually also try to do something so in physics and astronomy and all like this here there's actually a focus on establishing a gender committee that actually has extremely much focus on how do we address these things it could be a matter of words as you also addressed before we have to be very very very careful in our articulation is this a challenge track or is it a talent track there could be things that it is a challenge or talent wordings is important so they are looking very much on this they try to put events up on the full faculty try to put focus on this so there's action points there they also have a diversity committee at computer science addressing these issues so there's really a lot of attention to look into this if you look at engineering and this is all the role model issue they are hiring in candidates there's too few females that are hired in we have search committees we have 300 applicants for the positions that means an enormous pool of applicants but that's not the same as we hire a sufficient amount of females but those that is coming in here is one example from the engineering department that is doing a fantastic job in all respects fundraising trying to establish cross-activity and I think some of these this is just one example some of these dynamics is very important to get in if you look at the basic level they are also working quite a bit this is on the engineering school they actually had an enormous increase in uptake of female students at the engineering programs 46% increase last year admittedly saying from 22 to 30 so the numbers are still low but I think what is important is in all their branding they are sort of trying to illustrate what is engineering it is very important to put up focus on this is actually more diverse so they are doing a fantastic job they are also on the computer science for for girls trying to recruit in that is coming up from the high school mainly female researchers try to explain that computer science is not the same as having a t-shirt on a little bit and too much coke cola what do you call it no cola it is also a matter of identity and trying to explain because we are working against also some attitudes that come from high school and from primary school something I think that is also important that is we have a lot of focus on things that is important and I think females are more clever than the males in some respects they actually work on important problems so I think now we have much more focus on the SDGs the Sustainable Development Goals some of these could also help getting attracted more diverse factors I hope so at least I think trying to make a little bit diverse action in relation to society things we hope could also have in fact you don't think we will see then we obviously also try to get the information from the external side what are they doing in other universities and there is actually many many universities that has exactly the same problems as we have it is not unique things we have an issue but this is actually a global issue so many many places they have these issues and they try to attack them in different ways try to establish different recruitment talents different culture talents, different things so we try to get inspiration from outside also to actually tackle this we are not the only one that is in this boat this is a global issue differs from culture to culture so I think if we look at the challenges that is recruitment the recruitment base is also the job security in academia it could be a few women in leadership positions at universities all places here so what we are trying to do is actually to cover these aspects search committees expand the recruitment base we will try to establish effects job security by career programs could be mentoring programs it could be different departments, different ways and obviously we also focus on recruitment without having this bias that we talk about everywhere we focus on this and now we come to my last minute I think that is over one minute so your ideas in one minute so now we have to be very fast this I have two questions it is not an idea it is an idea too experts in gender studies have demonstrated that we cannot address gender bias separately from other categories like race and on the other side I am from arts and my experience also in Denmark is that open course are not really open course because departments are using different methods like short listing to intervene the process so just a few CVs arrive to the external committee I am wondering if the university is planning to address both issues I think these things are coupled so you could say short lists you could say that is prohibitive somehow but I think you should look at it in a different way at least that is how we look at it because we want to have 300-500 applicants for each call and now if I go to a professor in another university say would you like to for a small fee to evaluate 500 applications then I definitely get a no in many cases so at least if we take so I think actually what we are doing is we are expanding the pool we are trying to get minimal applicants in and then the short list is not the numbers we see I don't know these numbers I think that is not what we do certainly we have no slowness approach at Physics and Astronomy we have used the model from the university to implement this generality so there is such an office at the university level that is part of every level that students master students, PhD and so on all the way to the top these people are helping out with recruitment they have to sit on committees and to make sure that gender bias is addressed at least and to make sure that the short lists have at least a number of women and so on so maybe this would be something that would be implemented at the university level not just the departmental level I think so what I think is happening right now that is an enormous attention at the various departments tackling a problem that is actually very complex so what we do right now is obviously we get the inspiration for what is working here and there and then obviously those the channels that is really working that we should actually make models for the full university so I think it is very very good that in different departments they have different approaches to this and they try to get an experience base out of that that we actually should take care of is scaled to a larger but I think at present different departments all in this process here is taking inspiration from universities that they think is a good role model for how to solve this now you decide on the time here because there are several questions so that's a good question but can we help yourself good because I would like to destroy your program I have a follow up with Dinky so each of the departments some departments actually work really hard and this is like their fitness and astronomy is really good but for instance the ones I am associated with do not have this so my question or my idea for the action plan would be to have some sort of accountability or some sort of because now as far as I understand and I could be wrong what you end up getting at your level is sort of a report on who's been recruited, what the numbers were like etc. but I was just is there a way or maybe that's something to think about is a way to actually have some accountability with the action plan so it's not just a pretty paper I guarantee you there is accountability so actually what we have is action plans where we also have definite targets and we had it up in all these fora here and now if certain departments is not following up to their business then obviously we will have to make action on this so that was also why I said before could it be that we should for search committees always have one female qualified candidate identified before we do some we didn't do these actions yet because we thought first place it is by the ideas and voluntary basis but now if we don't live up to our targets then obviously we have an obligation as managers actually to take action so yes I can guarantee you that we look at them not only look and say this is too bad and this is no actually do something A lot of numbers and their colors I could agree with you that the culture is very important area and it's also a very difficult area because it's such a fluffy phenomenon so what is it really so could you put some words on in your world what is the ideal culture for AU at a broad level in just a few levels let's agree it is artifacts so it is values and then it is taken for granted assumptions so now you want to have it all but I think I think culture is something where you feel that actually there is room for you to pursue your career and your ideas so I think actually I would rather take the measures to try to probe is this really a culture that is inviting for female applicants and I think actually we have the problem that in many places that could be role models it could also be the language it could be the way we have that I think also what you address very much was and that is always dangerous when you stand up like I actually dare to do here even though the numbers are rare it's much more it's very important that we actually present the numbers we dare to do it we also address and take the battles when for example some of you said well now I put certain words on tough areas or whatever you said or something like that so this is all of this so we have to ourselves everywhere have to look at is are we sending the wrong signals culture is much about having something that is really allowing people to be there feel home and actually want to put their life there but what is researchers what is our teachers that is engaged people that can signal out they love to be where they are that's the culture it does go directly into your boxes but I think there's many levels here to look at this I hope you I will end up now I hope at least I gave an honest presentation on how it looks I hope also I convinced you I don't know if that was successful that we actually have very much focused on this this issue that we actually want and need to solve these issues here to get a good university for tomorrow we also have to remember here we are educating people to society that means eventually if we don't have the right culture and the right balance then we also risk that we transmit this to society and that's also an issue so we take it extremely seriously at least I hope I convinced you so thank you very much for your attention