 So, Sandy, we've just been doing a session on the innovation ecosystem. Could you tell me what innovation means to you? Innovation to me, I think I love it. The Pithy company has great ideas applied to me. That means ideas for commercial benefit or societal benefit. Right. So, you take a new idea and then you change things a bit and make something better. Is that what you're doing? There's sort of moonshot leap forward innovation, but there's also iterative process-driven innovation. Both can be very, very powerful, but they tend to require different levels of capital and I guess just big, bold ideas. So Australia, both sides of politics right now in the election we're going through, have made a big deal out of innovation. How are we doing right now, in your opinion? I think that it's great that both sides of politics are making a big deal out of innovation because it's only been a very recent phenomenon in Australia, in Australia in political discourse where you put something like innovation and innovation-related policy at the centre or as a linchpin of further economic policy for the nation, it's really been the first time that's happened. So the conversation has started and that's an important change for Australia. I think what we're all anxious to see is how that conversation starts to deepen into detail and action and how industry adopts sort of action and activity in innovation enterprise moving forward. So Australia I would say, I guess from our discussion, seems to have a developing ecosystem and one of the hearts of the developing ecosystem is having managers who sort of get how this system works well, of which I would say we don't have as many as some of our competitor nations and so you talked about the concept of a 21st century manager, what is that? Yes, I mean again you could be very specific and go into detail and study it forever but to me I think broadly speaking it means globally and regionally aware, you know having leadership that is regardless of background and skills that is absolutely aware of the competitive situation of structural trends and competition globally and regionally. So that's the first thing. I think it's also 21st century management capability is very aware of diversity and the value of diversity not just in gender and ethnicity but also in skill sets. So law, accounting but also quantum physics and also the arts, you know, creative, critical thinking of every kind. A 21st century manager would also be not seeking so much conformity or hierarchical sort of process. It would want flatter structures and it would want a little bit of friction, a little bit of back and forth. So I think they're the key parts of 21st century management. So what do you see that Australia can learn from other countries like Israel or the United States or is it just really different here and we're going to have to find our own way? I think both. I mean I think we can always learn from other countries just as we can. I think we can always learn from other sectors and industries in other disciplines in Australia. In fact, in Australia I think, you know, even looking at the mining sector, I mean we want to transition to a more diverse economy but in fact the mining industry has in fact reached global scale and it has several companies that are globally the best in the world and it has its own ecosystem that has been very, very successful. So even in mining we can actually look at mining and some success. As far as Israel and the U.S. and even, you know, Korea, parts of China, what China is doing, we can all learn by that. Each of them have had different roles of the key components of an ecosystem. In Silicon Valley's probably got the most well-oiled and most experienced of all of them from big government contracts, policy, risk-taking, venture capital, all of that. Israel's had been a master at utilizing what they've got in terms of skills, immigration, but also consistency of government policy over several decades. I think Australia is trying to work that out right now and I think that there's stuff that we can learn from multiple quarters but superimposing one for here will probably result in tears. We need to find our own way. So the poster child right now in Australia for innovation is Atlassian. So do you see that as the beginning of many good things to come or do you see it as sort of being the exception to the rule? Atlassian to me is certainly a standout company. The two founders, Mike Hennembrook and Scott Parkwell, I mean, I think they have a particular blend of risk, bonus tech savvy and business savvy that is really that sort of really lovely mix. And so in some ways it's a standout that's certainly an exception in that particular class of publicly listed company in Australia. That doesn't mean it has to remain the only one and indeed, you know, in other areas of endeavor in Australia before Atlassian in the software enterprise software, well we've had the standouts before, Cochlear, ResMed. So I think it's really, really important that we actually identify these standouts in multiple sectors, in multiple specialties, have a real look at what makes them different, what makes them globally successful and then see what that can teach as a whole heap of aspirant companies that can want to move on.