 everyone. Welcome to the panel discussion on physics in the Asia Pacific region. Now before starting off I would like to make a couple of acknowledgements. You see we had this committee set up sometime late last year for in preparation for this symposium and the committee members are listed here as the conveners. We have quick Leong Chuan from Singapore who is joining us on Zoom. Myself Sunil Gupta, I am from Tata Institute in India and Kuijuan Jin from China. So she's also joining online and then we have Mihoko Nojiri who is the chair of our committee. Mihoko is the one who had done all the heavy lifting. Unfortunately just before the symposium was to start she came down with COVID-19 so she could not travel but she is present there as you heard her voice while back and thanks to her efforts we could put together a program and I must acknowledge the help that we received from Executive Council. We have Monika here, Michelle, Yens and all other members Silvina. They were always one Zoom call away. Anytime we needed any help guidance they were there so we are grateful to them. It was not an easy program to put together because as you as you would see but we have you know so before that I just like to make a couple of general remarks. In 1922 Japan was the only founding member of the IUPAP from the Asia-Pacific region and today that number has grown to 17. The Asia-Pacific region which contains over 70% of global population is incredibly diverse in terms of geography, culture, languages, connectivity, mobility etc. This is accompanied by very different levels of development in terms of socio-economic and educational indices. These challenges have meant that the movement of people and scientific collaboration in this region has been significantly lower as compared to other regions. We heard yesterday a wonderful presentation on the Latin American region and we can only envy them that what they have been able to do although they feel they have a long way to go. This is something which is one of the concerns. The IUPAP certainly offers an ideal opportunity to gather the physics community from this region, bring them close together and better scientific communication and exchange in the Asia-Pacific region within the framework of IUPAP 100 has the potential to stimulate growth of physics which in turn could promote scientific interaction and enhance mutual understanding for the transformation of this region. The IUPAP 100 also offers a perfect platform to build on the existing strong physics infrastructure in many of the countries of this region for reaching out to less developed regions by first starting a dialogue and then helping out through an understanding of the challenges faced by specific regions and then together searching for solutions. Thus this meeting could become the starting point for addressing at least some of those challenges being faced by this diverse region. The first major step in that direction should be the enhancement of regional cooperation in research and educational sectors. The role of association of Asia-Pacific physical societies would be of critical importance to achieve that objective and that would be articulated by Professor Junichi Yokoyama who is sitting to the rightmost and in the second presentation will the role of metamaterials for quantum information studies including quantum computing and quantum communication would be highlighted in the second presentation by Professor Venugopalachanta of National Physical Laboratory in India. The world-class high-energy particle accelerators are the bedrock of regional collaboration and in the third top Professor Xi'an Shen of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing would highlight the role of these large facilities of the Asia-Pacific region. Unfortunately she could not travel so she's also joining us online. Now future challenges in our region can only be met through a rapid development of cutting edge industry. The physicists have been at the forefront of that development in the western countries and in the final talk Professor William John Monroe summarizes the relevance of this connection for the Asia-Pacific region. Now before I invite the first speaker Junichi Yokoyama I just want to mention that we had many more requests for presentations and of course we could not accommodate it because we had to limit that number so Mihoko came up with a very ingenious idea so she had a two-hour pre-symposium session which just ended half an hour back and in that many more presentations were made and I think Mihoko may want to tell us about that during the panel discussion so I would like to now invite Junichi Yokoyama. Thank you very much. Put this name exactly. It copied here. It's already copied here. The presentation. Uh-huh. New share. So which one? It says one. Not this one. Maybe from here you can. Just open data. It's not introduction. Number one. Number one. Thank you very much. It is my great pleasure and honor to be here on behalf of AAPPS, Association of Asia-Pacific Physical Societies. Oh no. What's going on? Okay so AAPPS is Association of Asia-Pacific Physical Societies established in 1990 on the occasion of the post-Asia-Pacific physics conference and the founding president of Chen Nian. And when I became a president two years ago, we had 18 member societies and now we have been joined by Uzbekistan and the newest member is Pakistan. And so we have now 20 members. We have 60 or 61 members. So we have a fair fraction of the world of the physics. And in our region we have 3.9 billion people in Asia-Pacific out of 7.1 billion in the total population of the world. So that means that we have a half of the population in our member countries and regions. So this is the list of our members. So we have now 20 as I mentioned. But some of which are not members of AAPPS as shown by these red arrows. So you may recruit them to be a member. And among them the 5 societies, the Chinese Physical Society Beijing, 2 physical societies of Japan, one dedicated to applied physics and Korean Physical Society and Physical Society in Taipei are 5 major societies providing extra contributions to activities and APPS. And now our headquarters are hosted by and located in APCTP, which is the Asia-Pacific Center for Theoretical Physics in Pohan University of Science Technology in Korea. So APCTP was established in 1996 after being endorsed by APPS and we have been receiving a lot of support from them. Our mission is to promote physics in Asia-Pacific through publication of APPS bulletin, organizing APPC conference, the newest one was held in Borneo 3 years ago and other conference like ASAP, which is a joint activity with European Physical Societies. And Chinese award is a young scientist award about us. And finally, division activities are becoming more and more popular these days. So APPS bulletin has been now published through the cooperation with Springer, but actually it's pre-cursor called Asia-Pacific Physics News back in 1990 was published in association with UNESCO and support from ICTP here and as well as the Physical Society of Japan. So we have come out long way since then. So APPC is our main general assembly. This is the one we had 3 years ago. And this year we were going to organize it, the 15th one in Kyonju City in Korea, but unfortunately due to still preparing COVID-19, we decided to make it to our fully online conference. But during this symposium, we will have a green economy session where Professor Michel Spiro, president of AIPAP, will be present to lead the discussion online. And our division activities, we have now 4 divisions, one plasma physics, second astrophysics cosmology and gravitation and nuclear physics and newly established condensed matter physics. And we are expecting more divisions like particles and fields or even computational physics. So in 2017, we determined rules on sponsorship of the activities of APPS. We defined the criteria to be sponsored, activities to promote physics in the region, integrity, fairness, transparency are important aspects. Of course, they must be free from any kind of discriminations. And no military related or supported activities are conducted among APPS. So the activities following this guideline have been supported like the conference in Nepal earlier this year. And recently we co-sponsored a conference in Thailand on carbon neutrality and also some plenary speakers from our member societies. Now our problem is a huge diversity among our members. So Japan mentioned the founding member of AIPAP and physics activity is very good. On the other hand, some countries have a very small number of members as well as very little fee of the membership fee. So the scale is very different among our members. But all of them are equally treated inside APPS. So the annual membership fee is just USD $500. For some member countries, societies have difficulty in paying the due because of their small financial scale and even transferring funds to abroad is not a trivial in some countries. And five bigger societies I mentioned provide extra support for Britain and other activities. But anyway, we don't expel any members even though they could not pay the fee, but instead we encourage them to organize APPS and those activities such as conference and schools to which we provide support to compensate the unpaid fees. And because our mission is to promote physics in the entire Asia Pacific and not to collect some small amount of money from our member societies. And also we send speakers to such events and the development of online platform has made it easier to show. And diversity in the stage of development and maybe decline is also an issue among us. Yeah, for example, this is the increase of the number of members in the Korean physical societies. It's a remarkable figure. And this is a budget increase for the science since the year 2000. So China is recording 13.5 times more spending since 2000. Korea five times more. But Japan only 15% increase. And actually Japan is, as I mentioned, only founding member of IUPUP in Asia Pacific. But it seems that the physics in Japan is now somehow decreasing and declining as you can see from the number of members of the physical society of Japan which hits the highest in the year of 1996. So it's a problem and we must overcome this. And now the diversity issue in gender is also recognized very important and we have a strong group of women in physics in APPS but actually in some countries within Asia Pacific there are far more female physicists than male. For example in Myanmar, which is not a member of APPS, 95% of physicists are female. In Malaysia 65% and Japan is the lowest, only 6%. And we must overcome this game. And we have some stories about Myanmar but because of the shortage of time I skip it for the moment. Maybe I return to this later and let me conclude towards the future. So Asia Pacific region is experiencing rapid changes overall and physics there is developing both in quantity and quality. Maybe Japan may be exception although the quality is still high. APPS is also growing. The number of members and the number of divisions are increasing towards one of the three cores of the world of physics. Although APPS is financially vulnerable, as I mentioned our membership is only $500. In recent years we are conducting more effective activities thanks to the development of online platforms as well as the general support from APCTP to which we are grateful. And we can promote physics in the region even more by cooperation between IUPUP and IAPPS and we wish to discuss it during this panel session. Thank you very much. So I'll be talking more about the small. Nice to hear a baby. Yes. I'll start with where we left off with the excellent talk of Professor William Phillips yesterday's talk. So that's my primary responsibility being at NPL and also cover the topic which I'm covering is my own research topic. So what we heard yesterday is that like so the new definitions of the SI units have been in place. So what is the status in the world and especially in the Asia Pacific region? So what we see here is the ones in blue are already established. If you talk about mole, Kelvin, kilogram, ampere, meter, second and candela. So the status in the current Asia Pacific region is shown in blue and the ones where work is ongoing is shown in purple color. So in most of the things, like so most of these seven parameters, like so the work is ongoing in the countries across Asia Pacific. So if you talk about quantum information processing, so the chain of course we all heard and read about the lead it has taken in establishing satellite and the ground based communication, the QPD quantum key distribution over long distances covering 4,600 kilometers. This was last year's report. They also recently reported the, one of the high qubit, both the photonic as well as superconducting qubit based quantum computers. So one of the questions yesterday to Bill was how do you take these two masses? Now we're talking about huge, roomful of devices like the first generation computers, like how do you make these accessible or available affordable for the masses. So that's what I'm going to address in the next couple of slides. So if you break the whole thing into how do you make it smaller and compact, affordable things like so the problem comes to light matter interaction. So you have cavity, you have a two level system. So after the invention of laser for almost like 60, 70 years, like we have been in this regime, which is the James Cummings Hamiltonian model, which explains both the weak and strong coupling regions. Now, over the last decade or so, we are more hearing about this ultra strong and deep strong coupling phenomena. So these are mostly in the theoretical domain with only a handful of experiments which showed this. So these are interesting because the complete Ravi Hamiltonian has to be used to explain this phenomena and also you start talking about novel opt electronic devices because we are now start talking about contributions from the vacuum itself. So to have the two level system, so people are talking about on chip for on chip developments. The two level systems are quantum dots and nanoparticles or defects in nanodiamonds, 2D materials, et cetera. And the other one which we should also focus on is metamaterials themselves for mimicking two level systems. I'll come back to what metamaterials are in the next slide or two. And for the cavities, we have been looking at Fabry-Vero cavities, the simple mirrors. Then we have this whispering gallery modes. Then we have this distributed Bragg reflectors and the photonic crystal cavities. All of them have showed Q factors of the order of like 10, 4, 6 or more. And more recently in the metamaterials, like we are talking about metasurfaces and all the electric metamaterials like bond states and continuum, where the Q factors are still in the order of like 10 power 3, but theoretically they're possible to get infinite Q factors in this. So what about this metamaterials? So if you talk about electromagnetic properties of a medium, so we talk about permutivity and permeability of the material. So these are the bulk material parameters. So this can be either negative or positive. So depending on that we can have, if epsilon is negative and permeability is mu, so you're in the second quadrant, these are mostly metals. If you are in the first quadrant, these are mostly dielectrics which have both positive epsilon and positive mu. And in the fourth quadrant, we have mu negative and epsilon positive magnetic materials are there. But the interesting thing is in the third quadrant where we start looking at both epsilon and mu being negative. And now we can design and realize these structures as per our imagination by having sub-wavelength featured materials mixing or combination of different materials with sub-wavelength dimensions. We can design these structures to achieve specific functionalities. So these metamaterials have been interesting over the last few years. We have been seeing that this can be used to, for example, generate beams like so on-chip optical traps. We are moving towards that so we can have photonic qubits. And also for the QKD or the communication we have these single photon emitters, directional single photon emitters. And more importantly, for the future, we should look at, for example, these optoelectronic device feasibilities. So connectivity in organic semiconductors basically have been shown to be hybridized with the vacuum field and you can get connectivity enhancement which is orders of magnitude higher. So you have possibilities by combining these plasmonic or metamaterial features with the typical optoelectronic devices. So there is infinite possibilities by using this. For the Asia Pacific region, the path forward should be like what IPAP can do is the Asia Pacific region we heard from the previous two speakers is that like it's, it covers most of the population in the world. And also geographically, we have about 50 plus countries, but unfortunately IPAP has only about 17 nations representing this region. It's a very complex region because we look for value for money. Why do you want to pay? So how much am I going to get back? These are the socio-economic reasons which go on this. And also the active cooperation or collaboration between nations is limited by geopolitical reasons. We all know about them. So if we have this miniaturization and small physics, this can take the technology to affordable and both for metrology as well as for quantum information. We can go for novel optoelectronic devices and nano-photonic structures. There are some examples where for example in India we have this Vigyan Vidushi where there is summer camps for about a few weeks where the women students from schools and mostly colleges are invited and they spend time with hands-on experience in labs and all that. So these are the things which we should focus on and target more students from colleges and students. We should take a cue from organizations. For example, IEEE where the students and the members see value for money because the students get more in return for attending conferences, etc. So this we already I heard yesterday that we have this special membership being considered for certain nations. So this is interesting and important. We should also look at developing some experimental kits. Online experiments are either recordings or live demos from established laboratories from IEPAP members. It would be ideal if each of the IEPAP current members if we can adopt a country. So for example India participates in the PTB program. So this PTB funded program where India trains these dark nations in metrology activities. So similar thing can be done from IEPAP point of view. So I think we will hear more from Bill Monroe's talk about industry participation. So these are things which we should look at from IEPAP point of view. Thank you. Can you stop sharing? I will share the slide please. So can you see my slide? Okay. So it's my can I start now? Please go ahead. Okay. So it's my great honor to talk about the large science facilities in Asia at this symposium. And we know there are lots of unanswered questions in the standard model like the neutrino mass, neutrino oscillation or black matter. And in this talk I'm going to cover some of the particle physics facilities. And I apologize for missing many important facilities. So the first topic is about neutrino physics experiment. We have listened to the talk yesterday by Takaki Kajita. And so the kamikanda and the super great contributions to the study of the cosmic neutrinos and also the neutrino oscillation. And there are lots of important measurements in the neutrino sector like the neutrino oscillation parameters and the neutrino mass ordering as well as the CP violation phase. The hypokamikanda experiment is the new generation of neutrino experiment in Japan. And so the project is already started and it's already started and it will start the operation in the year of 2027. And for the hypokamikanda collaboration there are about 500 researchers from 20 countries. For the neutrino oscillation parameters the neutrino experiment is dedicated to measure the theta13. This is an experiment in Korea and the project started in 2011 and data attacking from 2011. And right now they have already achieved the precision of 7% for the theta13 and with two times more data than before they are going to reduce the precision the error to 6.4%. The most precision measurement of theta13 comes from the diabe reactor neutrino experiment. This is in the southern China in diabe and the collaboration has more than 200 members in 600 countries. The current precision of theta13 is about 2.8%. This will likely be the best measurement in the four symbol future. A new experiment named as the Juno is already proposed and the civil constructions is finished in the last year and the detector assembly and the installation is ongoing and the whole experiment will be completed the construction in the year of 2023. The main purpose of this experiment is for the neutrino mass ordering and of course the precision measurement of the oscillation parameters. For the underground laboratory China has the world's deepest underground lab the Jingping underground lab and the rock overburden is about 2400 meters there is an extension of this project that's phase 2 project underground laboratory with total space about 70 times of the previous one and the phase 2 laboratory will be completed in 2025 and this underground laboratory accommodated two dark matter search experiment one is named as the c-dex and this is for the dark matter search and also for the neutrino less double beta study and the detector is the gemini detector and the project is ongoing and another one is the panda x experiment the panda x experiment has used the nature liquid xenon TPC technology and right now this detector this experiment is under operation and they have already achieved some best limit for the dark matter now for the for the collider one I want to mention and the highlight is KKB and the super KKB factory in Japan so the right now the super KKB has already started operation from the 2019 and in the the the designer is about 40 times of the previous KKB and for the bear experiment in the KKB together with another B factory experiment in the US and lots of great achievements have been made and especially for the discovery of the CP violation in BTKs and also because of the decisive confirmation of the CKM picture in two B factories already led the Nobel Prize to Kobayashi and the Mascara in 2008 and another important highlight is the discovery of the X3872 this is an exotic hard drum and this observation in the bear experiment inspired the observation of lots of exotic hard drums in many experiments till now and it opened a new era of exotic hard drum spectroscopy and another experiment I want to say here is about the best experiment at Beijing Electron Positron Collider this is also E plus E minus collider and with the beam energy much lower than that in the KKB on the super KKB and right now the best three experiment is still running starting from 2009 and this is also a big collaboration with more than 500 physicists from 17 countries and one thing I would like to highlight here is best three achieved the most precise CP violation parameters in variant cases so this is the first time for the to this is the first time and also the most precise measurement for the CP violation parameters so before I end my talk I just want to mention two points one is the large facilities all over the world provide a great opportunities for physicists to understand the most basic questions and another thing I want to emphasize is the international collaboration is crucial in all these big science facilities thank you very much thank you and now we'll have the final presentation by Bill Monroe Bill you can go ahead and share your screen yes I'm just do you see my screen yes you are visible thank you so I want to today I want to talk to you a little bit about physics and industry and I want to say first off industry doesn't exist without physics if we look at all our current high technology that we have everything has come out of the physics labs over the time so let me give you a few examples and it's kind of in a sense one of the most fundamental things that we need to think about and it's a little history in a sense and given that we have people here we all know that as we improve how well we can measure devices new technologies come so basically I've just kind of taken a little bit of poetic license here to say when we had to take measure we could only do very basic things but as we could get down to Venet Calpas and various things like this or measure at sub-millimeter devices we could build things like steam engines now that we can measure at the nanometer scaling below we've got to a stage where the computer chips and everything that we fabricated has come along so it's I think very well known that as you as you can precisely measure quantities new technologies arise and most of the techniques to do these improved measurements come out of physics laboratories okay so therefore in a sense physics is a real driver for industry in a sense so I mean if I want to think about industries in Asia one of the big problems is what example do I choose and I chose an example here just to kind of indicate how big some of the industries are and the one I chose was semiconductor because actually within the Asia Pacific region there's a concept called the big four which are really the big there's four big countries who produce a significant proportion of the world semiconductor devices and so what did I say here 35% of the world's production of the devices comes from the Asia Pacific region and just on the right side of the table I picked this up from a public report that Deutsche had just kind of indicating the various countries and the various industries like Samsung TSMC Sony and just how important they've been in the semiconductor industry and this dated from 2000 but it just says how big a business this actually is and what we know is for these workforces for these industries highly qualified engineers or highly qualified engineers that are required in a sense so basically we and we need to really make sure that workforces are available and for countries who are developing who are developing want to develop this kind of technologies then basically we need these countries to actually train particular people so the question is where do we go from here in a sense the future growth here is I think it's very clear mobile technologies Asia is very, very innovative in this area so artificial intelligence is one of the hot areas at the moment and while there's significant worldwide effort on this we're also seeing significant effort within Asia from many of the member countries of IUPAP in a sense. Quote information is one of the biggest speakers I've talked about so these are all big areas that Asia has started developing and it's areas where Asia can actually lead but one of the things that we need to think about in a sense is there's no reason we can't start combining these different approaches together so we can combine mobile technologies with quantum technologies so one example that we use to bring out certain Samsung phones that have quantum random number generators built into them okay so we can then create things like a quantum internet of things where everyone knows what the internet of things is but you can bring the quantum mechanics into this quantum edge computing hardware so my picture down here is just kind of showing a network where there's computers, quantum enabled devices on it where there's sensors and these are all things that we can do in the future but we really need to remember we need highly qualified technical staff to achieve this and this means whether we call ourselves physicists or not doesn't matter but they have to have a physics background so the future technology within Japan and I think it's useful to point out here given our first speaker was saying that Japan may be slightly in decline I think from an industrial point of view I don't necessarily see this I mean within Japan the government in conjunction with both industry and academia is heavily investing in R&D so basically in Japan many of you may not be many of those not in Japan may not realise but Japanese government does fund some industrial research because they want this so just one of the examples in quantum information science there are two or three very big national programs QLEAP Moonshot that are 10 year programs worth vast sums of money to develop quantum computing technologies quantum communication technologies what I say is that part of these programs and it's something that industry push for very early on on this is that yes while research funding is good we also need to be able to train the next generation as probably a few of you realise I do have grey here so I'm one of the elder generation unfortunately but we do need to train the new generation to come up and so that within a number of these Japanese programs especially in quantum information there's a very large education component so we can bring the next generation along the next one is within Japan industry ourselves also spends significantly in R&D activities so basically I work for entity and we have a number of I belong to the basic research laboratory but entity invest in in this because it sees this a way to do future growth I mean it's very important to us I mean we also because because we believe that the training of people is important we have active internship programs we bring quite a number of students and postdocs from around the Asia Pacific region into our labs for sometimes the interns can be three to six months the postdocs can be one to two years and they learn on basically our facilities one of the things that I think you'll find different with an industrial lab compared to a university lab so basically in our laboratories yes we have cutting edge equipment but the equipment that we're using for a lot of our for our work and our experiments is industrial fab stuff so basically on my own campus we have industrial fab technology that basically we use commercially but the researchers have access to this so we can fabricate ourselves, state of the art chips and brass things given that time is tight I just want to leave you with two key messages physics from my personal opinion physics is the key technology driver for industry in a sense for the high technology stuff that we're going on and people are a critical resource here and while you can say okay physics I'll give you another example from within my own laboratory you would think biology is probably not physics but actually our laboratory is building smart materials we're using our physics knowledge to build smart materials that can act as senses on people to monitor heart rate and brass things like this for certain conditions so basically technology here is really physics is really really important for this but more importantly we've got to make sure that there are enough people around and I think at the moment we have a shortage in that area so thank you very much and I'll stop there Thank you Bill I think we have taken more time than we had originally envisaged so I would like to first take up some of the issues which were discussed during during the preparation for the session and some of the issues and then of course throw it open to the audience as you saw we have huge diversity we have on one end Japan, South Korea you know Singapore China who are at one level and then the rest of Asia Pacific there's a whole spectrum so the real challenge is how to bridge that gap and that is something which has been I think the main limitation of this region to grow and though pandemic has been really bad for us but I think we all agree that the online tools have helped a great deal in communicating better so one of the things where we felt that IUPEP can play a major role is and it already is a mission of IUPEP and that is sponsoring conferences so I think for the Asia Pacific region we would like that we could answer more online conferences because those cost less money and with things like capabilities available at CERN, Indico you know you can set up a website site to handle the registration and so on program etc and with online tools it doesn't cost a lot of money and the other major challenge which I think every one of these speakers alluded to is the difficulty in moving across because of geopolitical reasons it's easier for many of us to come to Europe than to go to the neighboring country in Asia it's true I mean we meet each other often outside Asia Pacific than we do so given those challenges I think it's very important for us to devise ways and means by which we can collaborate and cooperate etc etc so that is something that I think we would really like to go forward now I also want to mention I had mentioned a doubt set but you know because we did not have enough time so we had a two hour session which was like precursor to this session and Mihoko had organized it so I would like to ask Mihoko to unmute herself and maybe make a few brief remarks about how that session go how many people were participating etc so Mihoko please go ahead Hello good morning this is Mihoko Nautili unfortunately I will not be able to participate in this meeting because I had COVID last week so this morning we had some activity among ourselves we had first Asia Pacific IUPAP event that is what we call this is a event for Asian IUPAP related people to talk each other especially the programs especially in our regions as you know we are active in IUPAP and we have a lot of communication with the people in US or people in Europe but we tend to well not to provide too much connection between the Asia Pacific area so this is especially this meeting is focused on so this morning we have programs starting from 6 am of this time and it was just lasted for two hours and two hours also and here is abstract so quick talk about the general IUPAP relation to Asia and in Asia we have just as Yokoyama-san mentioned we have AAPPS so Tae Won-no he is the president of Korean physical society he explained the coming AAPPG 15 that's the conference of the AAPPS and several activities expected in this meeting and David Hutchinson he is a New Zealand physicist and he explained the connection the physics activity in the Pacific area so you know there is many islands and many university association of university branches and how people help each other and how to try improve the education physics in this area and I think the AAPAP have to spend more time on the activity there and Nhi Lan talked about the science education in Nepal so she is the president of the physics society and there was a thought on the especially the gender diversity in this area is challenging on and the AAPP2 explained the focus of the coming event in Chinese Taipei and also we have had a discussion chaired by Yona Kim Park on gender issues especially so coming years we will have several events and I hope we will have through discussion and outcome and Sunil you want to mention about the web page right pardon me Sunil you want to mention about our new web page right yes yes that's right so I will go back to the by the way we had about 40 participants this morning okay right thank you so as Mihako mentioned one is our connectivity problem so one aspect that we discussed in this committee was to have a Asia Pacific web page where we could actually devote a page for each physical AAPS or IUPAP and encourage more of them to join IUPAP and the suggestion which Gopal made that you know somewhat bigger economies could sponsor in some manner you know the smaller economies to become members so that is something which we want to explore of course these things are done better privately rather than talking about it publicly so hopefully that way we can expand the membership IUPAP in Asia Pacific region and also foster greater collaboration so we have actually awarded a contract you know so we requested you know we sent a request to executive council and it had very promptly approved it so the contract has been given to the same company which developed the IUPAP website and they have started working on it so we should actually wanted it to be ready before the start of this meeting but because of various delays so we hope that sometime early next month we should at least basic rudimentary website to become operational that would become like a clearinghouse for interaction, contacts and making a request for sponsorship and so on so that is something we would like to do which is very cost effective and nowadays I guess that's something which we were also discussing and I believe there is effort also that any conference which is now forward which is organized IUPAP would encourage people to have an online component because that immediately expands its effectiveness okay so now there are a whole bunch of questions and I think since time is really really short many of them are very similar to what we discussed yesterday so I don't want to repeat the same things like gender issue is one thing what role IUPAP can play in fostering you know greater collaboration and science education so those are the common issues I think we should you know throw it open to the audience whether if you have any comment or suggestion please raise your hand and maybe just over there Sylvina I think there are also some questions online yeah on the chat oh yeah okay chat box yeah we can put up on the screen we can then questions are there on the chat very interesting presentations AAPPS that I understand it's for regular scientific articles but there are also some articles on I don't know views and maybe more related to policy in the region or developments in the region and I was wondering whether we could I don't know liais somehow and from IUPAP because yesterday we were asking exactly what else IUPAP could do to liais better to regions and I was wondering whether through your journal we could I don't know have a link so that we could show on our website what's going on in the region or to have something I don't know exactly what but if you can I don't know think about what we could do AAPPS bulletin started with in Asia Pacific but now with the cooperation with Springer we are publishing most reviews and scientific articles but still we have a most important part I would say what is going on in Asia Pacific news and views I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know we need to start Yes yeah, let us do it Yeah so Junichi I think what I understand what Sylvener is saying is that we could have IUPAP connection anyway that is also objective to have closer links between IUPAP and AAP with EPS we have some agreements to reprint one article from EPS and another They also published one article from AIPPS, but yeah, we can do such a cooperation with AIPPS. Right. Yeah. Yeah. New letter type thing, yeah. And we could AIPPS could disseminate information about AIPAP newsletter, for example. I mean, these things don't cost a lot of things, but yeah, Michel. Thank you. You have, there are many points that, well, we could reinforce if you are right, our link between AIPAP and Asia-Pacific physics activities. So first, what you said, we have to find a way to sponsor many more conferences that we did in the past using online conferences because it's much less expensive. And we could certainly give our support to many more conferences that what we gave in the past for in-person conferences. So this is a task that we have to discuss with Houdini and with the CNCC, how to support many more conferences, online conferences, which are much less expensive and very useful. And so this is in AIPAP helping you. Now, you could also help AIPAP. I see that in Asia-Pacific, you have a lot of companies very active in physics. So these companies could be the source of new corporate associate members. And I noticed that these companies, they said that looking for people, people are the critical issue for them to find physicists in their company. And with AIPAP, they can get access to the whole community of physicists either directly or indirectly. And we know that our young students, AIPs, are very much willing to contribute to trying to collect all the needs for physicists in companies. So it would be a win-win for our young physicists to get access to companies, as for companies to have a pool of access to physicists all over the world. So I think this direction has to be explored also in more detail. Thank you. Absolutely. I 100% agree with you. In fact, you may remember, Michelle, when I was C4 chair, that we got one company to sponsor the young scientists, or now the earlier career prize. And they actually, one of the reasons they sponsored is because they said, they do recruit a lot of physicists and biologists and so on and so forth, because they are in this software business. So they have all kinds of... So I think that needs to be pursued more vigorously. Okay. So first of all, I wanted to congratulate you because you have used this opportunity really to already establish a network and links among physical societies and countries that had not maybe collaborated so much in the past year. So I think you already did a very great job. And there are many ideas that are worth exploring, like this adoption, and we have to think about ways or online conference, about ways in which this could be done. I wanted to ask John Shen about prospect for future large facilities in the Asian area, like a possible future E plus or minus supercollider in China, or in Japan, a linear collider. How do you view that? Maybe that's a too long discussion to be held, but okay. Can you tell us a bit more about prospect for those machines? Yeah. Shia-Yan, can you unmute yourself? Shia-Yan, you have to unmute yourself. Oh, she cannot? Okay. Sorry. I couldn't unmute myself. Yeah. I think there are lots of proposed projects like the IRC in Japan and also the CEPC. It's an E plus E minus collision circular machine in China for the Higgs physics study and also the super torch arm factory, also an E plus E minus collision machine at a much lower energy, about five to seven GV. So we have lots of proposed project and all the R&D and including the R&D for IRC in Japan have lasted for many years. And so, of course, what we can do now is to try to do all these R&D to make all these things available and then whether these projects can be approved or not depends on the funding agency and the government. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay. There's one question regarding how the new emerging technologies and science can help foster closer collaboration in Asia-Pacific. Is it big science projects or new emerging sciences such as photonics, meteorology, et cetera, P of help? So Gopal, would you like to comment on? You did mention some of it in the passing during your presentation, but would you like to just elaborate? Right. I mean, the most of the focus because I don't know because the publicity or what is all on big physics, but in the process like so we don't give enough attention to what is needed. So I said one of the questions was like, okay, how do we take this big meteorology primary standards to the masses? So we need transfer standards and Bill has mentioned that I guess the efforts are going on towards that. So this is one area where we can actually go towards affordable transfer standards as we call it. So that we can go to from in the metrology triangle, like the pyramid, like so you can go from the primary apex level metrology institute to the down to the masses like so we can use these transfer standards. So instead of focusing just on million dollar babies, which are sitting in the metrology institutes, we also should focus on this. And this is what is needed for emerging economies. Okay. Okay. Thanks. I think we'll have to wind up. We are late. There are a lot of questions. There was one question about how to become associate members. So I would encourage those people to visit IUPEP website. I think there is some information there. And with that, we'd like to close the session. Thank all the speakers and and audience for asking fantastic questions. Yeah, one can send emails also to seek clarification. That's right. Thank you very much. I think that's the question. Yeah. But how do we live? The flash. Okay. Is this one? Yeah, yeah. Okay, you have yours. This is there. Do we need any more presentations? So would you go here? Share screen. First have to do it. first screen and then choose this one and it's a PowerPoint presentation you click on it and share and then you have the presentation which presentations are missing. So the folder is called IUPEC 100 on that stick. Oh, do you want to go to my computer? I don't know how to do that. Do you have pressure up here? The presentations are here. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much for them. Is it this one? Okay, we are 10 minutes late. So we will shift everything by 10 minutes. In the morning session. Oh yes, put it up I think. Thank you. Good morning everybody. And it's my great pleasure and honor to wish you as the IO PAP community. Happy birthday. Happy 100th birthday. President Michelle Spiro to you, especially on behalf of IU PAP. So I am, I'm not Nathya Chetty. In case you're wondering, I am in fact, Iggle Glathill and I'm standing in for him. He sends his apologies he can't be here. I'm part of the centenary working group, and he is vice president large for membership. Let me introduce Professor Silvina Ponce doson who you have not seen before I'm sure. She is president designate and from the University of Buenos Aires. This is Professor Christoph Russell, who is an emeritus research staff member of IBM Zurich research, and past president of European physical society. It is very important to note that he represents one of the 13 founding members, Switzerland, Professor Anisa Kamar, University Peshawar Pakistan, President of the Pakistan physical society. I thought it might be worth starting with the national picture the national benefits for membership. And these have to do with how forming a national liaison committee attracts national attention. It says we are part of the recognized international committee. The reason I'm saying this is it's not always easy to get the liaison committee to pay the fees. And yet IU PAP does actually run on the fees. The national science policy interface benefits, high profile international conferences are more likely to come to the country. Physicists are eligible for IU PAP awards they are eligible at all times anyway but this is part of the, the profile for a national committee. It's prestigious. This is a prestigious organization. And I would say the converse, not being a member of IU PAP is noticeable in the international community. So, I've changed the color scheme slightly in terms of joyful colors. The IU PAP members are in the maroon color, not members of gold because we need to mine them. In the global community, member representatives vote on resolutions that means that the country can cost its vote in collaboration with other organizations on how much is a kilogram and does it change when you redefine sea level. So how is that what are the names of the elements to be and nationals of member states are of course eligible for commissions commissions are very influential and play a leading role in global global scientific strategy. I think I'll go won't go through the membership categories, you know about the benefits of the links with various societies, the global projects that one can become part of through IU PAP. This is about a voice, a voice for an island country a developing country a low or middle income country with ISC the International Science Council with defining the SI units with IU PAP in terminology. And of course, the, the, the upcoming role of physics in the, the new century, the enduring principles that have been laid down the new challenges, the new opportunities for physics. Why is it really important to be a member. It's because of IU PAP's founding statement to assist in the worldwide development of physics to foster international cooperation in physics. And the application of physics towards solving problems of concern to humanity. I'd now like to invite Silvina to say a few words, not more than five minutes please. Physicists love their coffee. Yes. Okay. Thank you. So I was only going to describe what the different types of members we have in IU PAP and that was it, basically. So we have territorial members that are entities representing communities of physicists engaged in independent scientific activity, each within a definite, definite territory, we don't talk about nations as if bedroff was explaining yesterday. And so this territory does not imply any political position on the part of IU PAP, which seeks to assist physicists everywhere in carrying out its mission. And these members, territorial members have voting rights and pay membership dues. And so territorial members name a liaison committee and the delegates of the liaison committee, take part in the general assemblies and vote, and each territorial member has a number of votes that depends on the number of shares that are paid. And then a with our latest articles and regulations we introduced the new category of corporate associate members, which are commercial companies or international research organizations that have a special relationship with the field of physics or scientific research. They do not have voting rights, but can participate in the general assembly as official delegates, and they pay membership dues. And then members, territorial members and also corporate members, they can nominate members we only have that word I am. Well, people for the commissions. I talked yesterday about a other commissions that we have in IU PAP commissions, analyze basically the applications for conference sponsorship or endorsement. They also get prices, and they organized by subfields of physics. So as a member of IU PAP, you can nominate people for these commissions. And then of course you have all the other benefits that Ego was mentioning about. So that's basically the type of membership that we have and we are thinking now of setting up a new category of associate territorial member, exactly because there are some physics communities that are very small. And they, on one hand they cannot pay the full share. Usually we have a plan that at the beginning, they don't pay the full share but then eventually IU PAP asks that the full share be paid. And so we are thinking of how to liaise with these smaller physics communities that need to develop and maybe cannot reach within a reasonable amount of time. So that would be the situation to pay this full share and that would be this associate territorial member that we are starting to discuss and we are going to try to have approved at our next general assembly. So I think this is my contribution to this panel. Thank you. Thank you very much, Indy. yourself over to you. Thank you very much. Sylvia, thank you for introducing also the associate members and the corporate associate members. My point is just to make a very quick history about the working group 16, which is a physics in industry. And I'd like to say that I was approached by Michelle end of 2019 or earlier 2020 to us to build up working groups, because he considers it's very important to have a better association between the industry and basic science as mentioned already this morning also. So we started with eight members to form these groups from six different countries and we met at regular meetings, almost every month. So we are really trying to work hard. And we have basically received some mandates because this was the idea to bring recommendation to the 30th General Assembly of the IU PAP. So the decision to create these working groups was for the previous General Assembly in Sao Paulo. So the things are moving up thanks of course to the dynamic of Michelle. The main mandate is to bring this recommendation to the General Assembly and also to develop cooperation in physics amongst academia and industry. The first objective of our working group to deliver series of recommendation in this report that we put together. And I believe we summarize about 12 recommendation that you can see in the report that was submitted. Very important is to see what can we do to get associate members and tell you it's a very tough question. And we have written letters, invitation letters for these associated members from who are corporate members, I mean large companies but they could be also it might be even better to have people from national society, national level because you know very large international companies like IBM and part of it. They have all their network they have already all the things they need and it's much better sometimes to think about medium size and maybe startups who can really become members because they want to have more visibility. And I was very happy to hear about South America yesterday and also this morning about the Asian and Pacific area and that would be very happy if people can approach me to give me the names of associate members potential associate members. As I mentioned, we wrote a letter saying what are the benefits for an associate members except besides paying a fee, which would be one unit fee that Michel is proposing about 1240 euro and for a company to give this money they need to see what do I get for this. So we said about letters for many companies in Europe but they're all over the world and especially to research organization because we believe we have more impact to talk to companies, I mean to research association like every LE excurs me also to we did send it to the fusion reactor it and so on so we kept going on but we didn't receive too many positive answers. We also asked the territorial members the 60 of them 60 or 65 of them to send us information about potential companies and members who could be joining us but the response was very, very poor. Okay, we have at least one success to success because we have not two members and one which is certain so it's a very important associate member. And the second one is the advanced laser light source, which is a company which is an organization in Canada, in Quebec. So we are starting already to have some members working and collaborating. We have been discussing with some other you know I give you example and IBM because I spend about hours with them to convince to become a member, you know paying a fee of 1200 is not very much but they said you know if I have to report to my general manager to the top, what can I say what would be the purpose for IBM to become a member. And so we drafted a series of lists of benefits. First, let me know, tell you that now we have our members of this working group has 11 members from from eight countries, including Canada, the United States, Belgium, Switzerland, France and so on and of course we have also ex official Michelle and Jens of the general secretary of the IUPAP were really helping us very much. Now, about the basically advantages of the benefits for them. As you mentioned, they can hold position in IUPAP they have no voting rights but I mean they can participate to all the activity groups and so on. They can sponsor prizes awards and in fact initiate focus initiatives and workshop. If they are interested in specific fields. They can submit proposal to other associate members to collaborate and this could be done via the mediation of IUPAP. And then they have of course a chance to have a specific website, which we are now developing which would be a website specifically designating for associate members, and they could also post physics employment opportunities and career jobs for their members and also maybe attracting students into the physics community working in the industry, because you know 80% of the people who are studying physics end up in the industry. And I want us to show you and because I'm finishing now. We did in the European Physical Society we did publish a very interesting research, which was the important physics to the economies of Europe. And we are mentioning how many physicists are getting involved in so called physics related industry so there is a whole list. And if you're interested I can give you the link to this research report which was done. And covering the period of 2011 to 2016 it takes time to get the statistics of course for this, but I mean it's a million of numbers of employment and job that we can afford. Okay, so I'm very open for discussion and this and also I'd like to say that we have as a members of our organization we have IUP students and I have young people and Cyrus stand up Cyrus, because he's the vice chair of his group. So I think we are aiming to look for young people to help us in generating dynamics in this working group. Thank you very much. So, I now call on Professor Anissa Kamar. And particularly I think it's great to have someone from Pakistan one of the newest members of IUP in the spirit of Abdus Salam since we are sitting at that center. And I think he would have been very glad to see that this celebration is proceeding very happily indeed with the kind of joy that I observe in the in the gatherings both social and on physics. Honorable President, ladies and gentlemen. I'm a great grateful for IAPAP to organize such a wonderful event and to give me an opportunity to present my country, and then to be the part of this centennial symposium in the beautiful city of Trest. So I would like to very briefly narrate how Pakistan resume its status as a member of IAPAP, reflecting on the importance of IAPAP to the promotion of physics in Pakistan, IAPAP is a ray of hope of hope for the physicist in Pakistan. So during the seventh general assembly in 1951, IAPAP granted Pakistan is the status of a full member. These were the very initial year of independence that Pakistan had only few scientists active physicists then. These physicists were convinced that science could not flourish in an isolation. So, these and they will remain active for the initial few years. These were the years however that Pakistan had extremely limited expert human resources so many of these are scientists had to get involved in building and management of scientific infrastructure at the cost of regular interaction to the young young scientists within the country and outside the country. So, unfortunately not being able to actively participated in the scientific activity and gross ending ligands on the part of these few one resulted in the retirement of Pakistan from the assembly of an IAPAP in 1951-55. I consider this is one of the biggest setback that happened to the scientific community of Pakistan during these early years. And I'm very proudly sure that it was only because of the woman physicist that efforts for rejoining IAPAP resumed in Pakistan after about 66 years. So, these women physicists, they were very active and they are organizing the first regional conference on women in physics with the support of ICTP in 2016. And then in the continuation they are organizing the second regional conference with the help of IAPAP and ICTP in Nepal 2019. So, these conference actually in 2016 the first conference was organized in the capital city of Pakistan and this proved extremely successful and some around about 200 women are participated in the activity and the report of this activity was published in the Canadian Journal of Physics. So, in 2019, in 2017 IAPAP sponsored my participation in the Sixth International Conference on Women in Physics organized by an IAPAP at the Birmingham. So, I met the inspirational young Pakistani educational stand and Nobel laureate Malala Yusuf Zayi. So, this conference was an eye-opener for me and it completely transformed my level of motivation. So, I was there that I realized that how much this membership is important for the Pakistani community. During the conference, I talked to the management of an IAPAP and about the membership that Pakistan lost in 1955. The management encouraged me to follow it up with the concerned department in Pakistan. On my return from the conference with commitment from the extremely helpful management of IAPAP on my back, I initiate the process of relieving our membership with the Pakistani authority. I pursued the case with full conviction and succeeded in overcoming all the bureaucratic hurdles in September 2017. But we didn't spate off and our effort materializing December 2007 through resolve of IAPAP to grant Pakistan membership to IAPAP effectively from January 2018, and I'm so grateful to IAPAP for getting us the status. This membership has helped a lot, not only in regenerating over scientific zeal but also in organizing the regional and international activities that has resulted in breaking the cultural and the geographical barrier. Through these activities, Pakistani physicists established a meaningful research collaboration from among themselves as well as well as with established and renowned researchers in their respective field from abroad. As part of its Indian celebration, IAPAP sponsored a three day webinar that was organized by the Pakistan Physical Society that I was chair then and the University of Peshawar where I'm currently working as a professor. During this webinar, some 50 talks were delivered by reputed experts from across the globe and more than 300 research participated in the activity. It is to mention that such activities are extremely important for the promotion of physics in Pakistan. With the COVID-19 restriction gradually seizing out, we are looking forward to organize a regional conference with the support from IAPAP with the possibility of physical attendance. I hope I will continue joy all the out support for the management. Physics teaching and physics education are some of the fuel in Pakistan that required urgent attention. So physics teaching at the second in high secondary level has reached the level of demotivation. So with the continued support from IAPAP, regular workshop and conferences can be organized that would help promote physics teaching. And I shall soon be submitting the proposal to an IAPAP to helping me in organizing our shop on physics teaching to pre-university teacher so that more and more youngster will be motivated to opt physics as a career. One of the ongoing activity of IAPAP meant for reducing gender gap in physics and empowering women in physics is very close to my heart. It is extremely important for Pakistan to increase the number of women physicists to effectively contribute toward the socio-economic and industrial development of the country. I appreciate the resolve of IAPAP to not only celebrate women in physics of the past, but to support the present women in physics to help inspire future women in physics. At the end, let me reiterate my commitment to the cause of promotion of physics and reducing gender gap in education. I shall continue to voluntarily support all such activities organized by an IAPAP. Thank you all. I think that was exactly the right note for a seminar on why it is important to be a member. May I throw the discussion open now? There would be a microphone roving, right? I'm very happy to see that Pakistan is back where it should have been. I just want to mention in my area of cosmic ray physics, in early 1931 or 1932, there was a mission carried by great Arthur Compton. They had a debate whether cosmic rays are charged particles or photons to resolve this issue. Compton had carried out experiments all over the world at different magnetic latitudes and longitudes. And for the Indian subcontinent, then it was only one India. So in the Indian subcontinent, the place that was chosen was Lahore. I believe it was Foreman Christian College, which was located in Lahore. FFC College. Yes, so that was the center of learning in those days. That was the base from where he carried out the measurements, you know, all over Himalayas and deep down south and showed that the intensity depended only on magnetic latitude, not on the longitude and that settled the debate. And it was very interesting because in 1936 Time Magazine had on its front page picture of Arthur Compton holding his ionization chamber. And with a title that you don't argue with scientists, you know, there's a specific technical term was mentioned. So I just wanted to mention that, you know, the history of science goes back in that part of the world, really almost essentially as old as I have. Thank you. Great. I'm looking for hands, especially in connection with the new corporate membership identity and whether they're right. And it takes, I think, a couple of jewels for a human to run up a staircase. I've seen it measured by first measuring the energy taken to open a can of Coke, and then comparing it. Please go ahead. This is really great that you're doing this and I've talked with Cyrus about this. And I've been advocating for working groups and to actually establish the industrial members for a while, based on the IUPAC. I'm having a little trouble we had a report at the USLC the US liaison committee, and it was pretty negative. And, and I've been talking with Cyrus and I'd like to discuss with you about how we convince corporations to find the cost benefit analysis for joining. Granted for many corporations, the, the financial input is not that much, but they still want to do it. One of the things that the American Physical Society did and it was their, their largest unit was the form and industrial and applied physics, and it wasn't really the benefit it was more put in that they were part of a group that they wanted the interaction with other industrial scientists that was the main argument. I wanted to bring up in the US it's going to be a hard sell. But right now the US is really working towards more and more funding toward regional innovation hubs, where universities and national laboratories are required to interface closely with industries to create information centers. And so those might be ways that a lot of this information is going to come out in the next month that you and I could talk about that we can contact that they might want some international interaction, but it seems like a hard sell but a great one to to focus on. So thank you for doing all your work. Yes, Laura, I think you are fully right. Working, you know, as an associate member is not really a financial issue for the companies as you say it's more a question of developing networking and also working with scientists. This is very important and. But I like to tell you just a little story we tried to ask ESRF, which is the single term radiation center in and gone up and said that I would like to have you as a member of our IUPAP with PAP mean physics and not chemistry, because IUPAP and they said, Oh, no, not really because, you know, with sequence and evaluation, we can do so many different things. We are working on different fields. We cannot focus only on physics. So we cannot be a member of IUPAP. So this was already a pretty disastrous answer in some way. I have hope that working with organization like CERN, you know, because CERN is very much involved in technological approach, you know, having such a LHC, there are so many companies. And we have one of our members, the working group is a is part of CERN also and you have also very much involvement. So I fully agree with you with starting maybe with physicists working in research organization. This will be the first step. I have tried to set myself with PSI with the Paul Scherer Institute in the Swiss light source and so on and I was again the same answer. What could be the benefits, you know, we are doing outreach, we have already our network and so on that I try to convince my friends with the head of this PSI. Come on, we want to develop a community of people and this would be very important. So I hope I can still convince him to change his mind because he said no at the beginning. Okay, there is another question somewhere. Right, we have a question. Sorry, over here. The microphone is the talking stick has been captured. Thank you. Thank you so much. My question is for Christoph. So we in Australia has really difficulty convincing industries, although we don't have so many industries like you're convincing that PhD students are capable and hiring them. I was talking to someone from Netherlands in the last one in physics conference and she said, we run some programs that industries will bring a question that they can't solve. And we put physicists in a hotel, and then we get them to solve it and now this has been very famous. I was just wondering if you guys have done something special to get the physicists more attractive for industries to hire. Yes and no, I mean physicists are already very much attracted by by by industry, you know, you can look all around I mean the large companies like ABB or like early kid in France or any companies are already much hiring physicists, maybe not PhD physicists they like sometimes younger physicists would reach the level of master or even a bachelor because they are more flexible, and they can learn on on the job. But what you say it's developing programs in order to attract. This is a very good point is you need devoted people. I mentioned that the European physical society we have about 40 associate members, and out of them is maybe two thirds are basically research centers and university even physics department. We have to pass very much money out of them so we have made a survey in order to try to find out what they really want. And the answer is very, very always the same one and we'd like to be part of the community. We don't care so much about spending the money for this but we need to have also access to job fair and so on and maybe also have exhibitors exhibition which could be of interest. So there's no absolute answer to how can you collect more associate members maybe you have a point here. No, I just wanted to say that it occurred to me that maybe we could have some grants associated to the early career scientists towards and that that line of funding for those grants could come from corporate associates. And also I understood that you said something like companies could bring their questions but on their problems, but yesterday we were discussing this with Chris and and he said that maybe there are confidentiality issues for companies so it's not so easy to accommodate that I'm sorry I have to quit. I think, I think we should stop. Otherwise there will be no coffee break left and you should reconvene at 11 char, please. We are lucky to can you can we can do it outside and I think we have a coffee time. Thank you. Thank you everyone. I have a few gifts for someone would I decide to give you some more questions. Yeah, okay. Okay, coffee. During coffee. During coffee. Yes. Okay. I would like to ask you if it's nice or why it's important. Yes. Give me your email address. I'm here. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. No, I think. They have to unplug and then reflow. Thank you. We actually need some technical help. Okay, so we're done. Here we go. You're going to be next. Okay, thank you. Just one second. Thank you. I am just a student but I do have the contract of the president. The Dominican Republic. Yeah. Yes. Please take seats. We are behind the schedule. And it's time to start our session. I will chair this session. I come from the Institute. Joint Institute for Nuclear Research in Dubna. It's my honor to announce the first speaker of our session. He will be talking about history. That means we continue with the historical presentation of our union. And it will be about the dream in waiting. And the first two decades of the. John Navarro is a research professor at the University of the Basque country, Spain, trained in physics and philosophy. His academic career has focused on the history of physics in the 19th and 20th century and on the historiography of the science in general. He has published extensively on the intellectual and cultural transformation of physics at the beginning of the 20th century. He is currently coordinating together with Robert Diolani, the IUPAP 100 history project. Please, John. The floor is yours. You have 30 minutes, please. Thank you very much, Boris, for this kind introduction. And thank you for the organizers of this symposium for inviting us, historians, Roberto, and myself, and other invitees, we'll talk about that later tomorrow. And yesterday, so I'm meant to be talking about the first two decades of the IUPAP. Someone was asking me, I don't know if it was Chris or Jen's yesterday. So how do you talk about something about which nothing happened? So I'll make it up, basically. That's what I tried to do. Let's tell you why almost nothing happened and what happened in the meantime. And as Roberto said yesterday, it's at times dangerous and at times not a good idea to invite historians to your birthday. Because they may start thinking and proving that's not actually your real birth date, right? That you were born in some other day, in some other year, that luckily you are younger than you thought or the first that you are older than you thought you were. Anyway, so I'm not going to do that. I'll try to explain why this is one ballot date to celebrate the centenary of the IUPAP, although there could be other ones. Anyway, so let's... If we think of the 1920s and 30s, there's a famous sentence, well, famous for historians in quantum physics. Hans Bethe talked about the 30s as the happy 30s, right? And they were happy because they were young. And they were happy because it was the 20s and the 30s, the time of the huge transformation of quantum physics, quantum mechanics, relativity, which in retrospect that really changed the world. But they were not necessarily happy for everyone at an level. Certainly we know not at a political level. And we'll delve into these problems here. When physicists, when historians of physics think about internationalism in physics in the 1920s, these are the images that come to mind. You may know these images. These are the Soviet conferences. 1937, 1911, 1937, 1933. This is international physics in the 1920s and 1930s. There's another image that historians of physics might immediately bring, which is this other image. That's now called the Neits Technology Institute, the Institute for theoretical physics in Copenhagen, where people from all over the world, mainly Europe and America, met around this father figure was at Niels Bohr. But no one would think of internationalism in the 1920s and 1930s. No one would think about the Ayupa. Why? Because, as I said earlier, not much happened. These are images that come easily to mind on the historiography. Other sciences did have a more international or internationalist tradition. Think of the astronomers. Think of the geologists. They did have, from the mid-19th century, a long tradition of international projects with some sort of international institutions because their projects, think of 1919, the year of the famous Einstein Eclipse expedition. That was a time when there was a network of astronomers who had been used to traveling, to working together internationally. Not so the physicists, at least not at that stage. Universalism, yeah, physics is always claiming that our laws of physics are universal. And yet there were no great international except for these rather reduced meetings in the 1920s and 1930s. I want now to set the stage, 1919. And I'll be reading from an astronomer, American astronomer, talking about what the mood among the scientists is. And that's William Campbell. That's the mood. That's the mood. Yes. Not to be able to see it. Right side. What will fix that? Now we go. Okay, great. So now you can see the war, those who couldn't see the presentation. So this is the mood in 1919 among some many scientists. And I'm quoting from William Campbell and astronomer in the US. The war of 1914-1918 brought on by the governments of Germany and Austria-Hungary with the sympathy and support of their subjects and the humanity and barbarity with which the war was conducted, destroyed the usefulness of nearly all the international organizations. The scientists of the Allied and associated nations were unable to subscribe to the Prussian view that might be right in international relations. And with very few exceptions, they were of the opinion that personal relationships with the scientists of the central nations should not be resumed. 1919. At least until the offending governments and people shall have renounced their past and apparently present political methods. It should not be overlooked or forgotten that most invaders in pure science in the central nations, that's Austria, Germany, are officials of their governments as truly as their diplomats, their soldiers and their sailors. The great majority of German professors, for example, were appointed, promoted and in case of necessity disciplined by the Kultus Ministerium, a definite department of their government, right? You can sense the mood among scientists in the aftermath of the great war. And that was the mood with which 36 science delegates representing the national academies of similar societies of nine Allied and associated governments met in London in October 1918 under the auspices of the real society and in Paris the following month. And in the latter I keep quoting from this astronomer. It was decided that representatives of the various sciences should meet in Brussels in July 1919 to create international unions representing many different sciences and to complete the organization of the International Research Council whose principal functions relate to the promotion of research and in any of all its aspects in any membership country and especially to the coordinating of the proposed unions representing the seven sciences. So basically the mood with which the international unions, the National Commission of Scientific Unions was created in 1919 was precisely that to foster internationalism. Internationalism meant the explicit exclusion of the losing countries. So that's the International Research Council 1919 with Emil Picard, Toshusta, George Hale, George Lecombe and Vito Volterra that is constituted in Brussels in July 18th to the 29th 1919 the summer of 1990. It is interesting that because the idea of the International Research Council is to promote international unions of the specific different sciences. They draft statutes for the several possible unions which are the first unions to appear. The International Astronomical Union, they had a tradition. It's not surprise for them. They already had some projects going on. The International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics, they also had a tradition of collaboration and the International Union of Pyramid Chemistry, the UPAC, that's three unions that are created in that summer of 1919 and two that are almost created there are also the International Union of Biological Sciences and the International Union of Radio Science. Great. Where are the physicists? Well, the physicists were, well, some physicists were there actually. Let me go back and we have a short here. We have Hale Astronomical, we have physicists in the International Research Council. They draft statutes for a union of physics, but there's not enough physicists from enough different countries to create an international union for physics. So they have to wait. They decide to wait. And they decide to wait until, well, they decide to wait, but they do have, this is 1919, this is working anyway, it doesn't matter. This is 1919. They do have a draft of the statutes for an international union of physics, proposed statutes for an international union of physical sciences already in 1919. When is the next General Assembly of the IRC of the International Research Council that is in 1922? Yes, I had it here this time, the last week of July, so it's two weeks ahead of the actual birthday. And it is in that General Assembly of the IRC of the International Research Council that physicists decide, a number of physicists decide to create a provisional executive committee to promote an international union which changes the name. It's no longer the proposed statutes of an international union of the physical sciences, but an international union for pure and applied physics. International, international, pure and applicable. Who is behind this change of name? Robert Millican. Robert Millican has a very strong philosophy of science in which experiment is the most important thing, and therefore he, following with the tradition of the chemists, he decides that the name had to be the new international and the physical pure and applicable, whichever way you say that. So July 1922, 100 years now, the General Assembly of the IRC embraces an executive committee with these people, William Brown and Brea Brown, Corbin and Senator Blanham-Lawrence Millican, that is an executive committee. We are celebrating that thing now. When is the actual formal creation of the UPAP? 10th, December 1923, next year, was the first Constituent General Assembly. So we're celebrating a very long birthday, we have a 19 months birthday celebration, Monica, you have to prepare more activities for this 18 month celebratory thing. It is important because in some of the documents, Roberto was a bit surprised about that. In some of the documents, they talk about the 13 first countries were not there in 1922. Between 1922, there were only four or five countries, right? And you can tell in the letters of Henri Abraham and a number of people, William Brown was not very active as president, that they're trying to convince the national unions. So by July 1923, there's already eight countries, by October, there's already 10, and by December 1923, there's already 13 countries who have, or national unions, who have approved the membership of the international union for pure and applied physics, and three, Italy, Sweden and Czechoslovakia, who have promised to do so, but they have not yet formalized the thing. So this is the situation in 1923. Actually, if you want to know the time, it's already at 10.30, it's there up on the left. The sound starts at 10.30, and it's open at 11 in the morning. Good. While the president, I mentioned, Brak doesn't do much, Henri Abraham, he does do a lot of correspondence. We don't have the archives of Abraham, Abraham was killed in Auschwitz, and we don't have a full archive of Abraham, but we have, we do have many letters in the archives of the UPAP and in the archives of Milliken and other people about his correspondence, trying to promote the international union for pure and applied physics. And again, nothing happens until 1931. So we've had the constitutive general assembly in 1923, we have a second general assembly in 1925, and nothing's happening. One of the best ways to see that nothing happens until 1931 is to look at money. So they've been collecting the dues of the member countries, up to, if you can see on the left, 82,000 francs, of which they have spent 11,000. So there's a remnant of 70 plus thousand pounds, no sorry, francs, Swiss francs. They've spent 10,000, but were 11, but of those 11 they spent 5,487 were not an expenditure, was simply money they had to give back to the Australians who had paid too much, right? So actually they spent 6,000 francs in six years. Anyway, the letters that Abraham was sending. Okay, so things change, and you know a bit the story, Roberto explained the story a bit, because the International Research Council changes, because it's transforming into the international union for scientific, international community for scientific unions. It is made explicit that it is open to all countries. So that possibility was open in 1925 and 2026, when the countries, the allied countries opened up international relations with Germans and Austrians, but nothing had happened at the scientific level, certainly not at the physics level. And in 1931, there's a change, there's a change, Christian of the Ixu, and the creation a rebirth of the international union for pure and applied physics. And they choose Robert Millican, who had been involved with the UPAP ever since its inception, partly because had been involved in internationalism in science from his position as foreign secretary of the American National Academy of Sciences. Elected president, actually he was not there in Brussels, but there's a telegram that we keep on his accepting immediately. So that meeting starts with we nominate Millican and the following day Millican has accepted and they keep the telegram of that acceptance. And for the first time they create two commissions, right, which is a commission for bibliography and publications with Cabrera, Spanish guy, Colton, Langevin, and we heard yesterday a lot about the SUN commission, which is not my territory, you need some symbols, presided by Glacebrook, and which did do some stuff in the 1930s, right, that's another story that I won't have time to go into now. But to see the mood, this is a letter Millican after being elected, he writes to von Lauer and he says, this union of which BRAC has been the president has been purposely quiescent until it could be made completely international, that's underlined in the original manuscript in its membership. And finally, that when assurances came last summer after conversations with between Abraham in Paris and Planck Schrodingen yourself, that the time had come when it could be made fully international, it said about the organization of some activity committees. So the first committees are created in the understanding that now we can be a truly international union and that now the Germans can come on board and Abraham is thinking to plan to Schrodingen to von Lauer to people, and it looks like that is going to happen. The story of why that never happened, never until the 1940s. It's a long story about which we don't have all the information. Part of the story was of course 1933, there's a political change in Germany of which we are all aware, but also because physicists in Germany were very fragmented, there were many unions, there was no one interlocutor to which to address the possibility of that. And it is clear in this letter that the fact that at least until 1931 they had done nothing that was a choice. It was not simply that they were useless, right? Anyway, Chicago, why Chicago here in the story? Because Millican, American, Millican, as I said earlier, so Foreign Secretary of the National Academy of Sciences, Millican in the mood of American science of putting America, putting the US at the center of world science, decides, suggests that the next big general assembly of the UPAP will be in Chicago in 1933. Why Chicago? Because Chicago is celebrating the centenary of the foundation of the city. It's going to create a big festival, the century of progress and so on. And he's really interested in that. Okay. And that's a letter in 1931 to Abraham in which he says, I'm organizing everything and it will be great. We'll have money to bring people here and so on. Right. We're ready to function actively as soon as the German representation in the membership can be provided for and they both have important work to do, which should not be delayed. That's the planning for the Chicago meeting is the function of the executive committee and the promoters of the century are planning to make it possible to invite a considerable number of European physicists. Grand plans for 1933. Grand plans for 1933 in 1931 after 1929. Depression, no money, the big plans of the Chicago fair to invite all the world there were shattered. The big meeting that was going to happen in Chicago for physicists is downsized and they invite two or three physicists. And after that Millikan writes to Abraham says, well, Professor Vegard spoke to me after that meeting, expressing his fear that the union might disintegrate if it did not soon hold the meeting, which would demonstrate that it both virtually and real work to perform. So that's again a sense of depression that there's not much we can do. A sense of depression. So there's the fiasco in 1933. That's also fiasco. There's no money in the U.S. or the State Department tries to shut down the payment of the dues of all international scientific societies and the efforts to bring Germans in never materialize. And then the Royal Society basically decides to give a hand and organize a big conference in October 1934 in London and Cambridge. That's a huge story there about the politics of the Royal Society of the Institute of Physics and of Cambridge with rather thought and so on. It would be a long story. But in that, which is the fourth General Assembly of the UPAP. Fourth General Assembly with, yeah, it's a big number of physicists. It's not specifically the UPAP, but the UPAP is part of it. And they decide to, okay, let's go international. Let's look for another president. And they decide to have another president. Neil Spore, great internationalist figure, who is normally regarded as some, you know, one of the big names in physics in the 1930s. And while Neil Spore is not in Cambridge and London, and they tell him, okay, will you be happy to be the president of this international union? Because the Germans are about to be there. And on a phone conversation, he says, okay, fine. But then he knows, he learns that, yeah, the Germans are promising all the time that they would be part of that, but that they're not part of the UPAP. And therefore the Neil Spore said, I'm sorry, Abraham, that's the letter on the right. It's, I've been very clear and very explicit that I cannot support any international union, which is not truly international meaning, which doesn't have the Germans in. I've been consistent with that all my life. And I don't want to accept the presidency of the UPAP. Because nothing was happening that rejection remains there on the desk. So Neil Spore rejection is not, okay, we need to find another president. It's, well, we'll think about it. And we'll think about it till 1937, right? In which, to be honest, as a historian, I don't know who is the president of the UPAP between 1934 and 1937, because they've appointed Neil Spore, Neil Spore said no, and nothing's happened. Millican already is no longer the president. So they had chosen a list of, for the new executive council. And they try in 1937 to, Ria Bram says, look, I mean, I know you said, no, but please, can you rethink that? And still, I don't want to be the president. They think and they send letters to Enrico Fermi. Enrico Fermi says, look, I'm very busy, I cannot be president of that. And then they suggest Manasigban from Sweden and Neil Spore said, yeah, he's a good candidate. And Manasigban accepts in 1937 to be the president of the UPAP. In many of the documents of the UPAP, they mentioned Manasigban asked the president from 1934, that he accepts the presidency in 1937, thinking of a new general assembly that was meant to be in Copenhagen had borne, accepted the presidency, but did not take place in Copenhagen and actually did not take place anywhere, right? Good. So just briefly to finish, because I don't want to be late. So the standards commission and nomenclature by Richard Blaisberg does do some work with the International Institute of Foire in the Netherlands with a commission of international technical commission with annual tables of constants. They give some money. And with the Stuttgart-Bericht, which is this about spectroscopy, for which they spend most of the money they have in the 1930s, they spend it to support the publication of a new edition of the Stuttgart-Bericht with Peter Uelt, who's part of this commission and whose funding for his research comes indirectly from the UPAP. So in a way, the UPAP's first sponsorship of a researcher insists indirectly by promoting the republication of the Stuttgart-Bericht, which is the tables of spectroscopy, is in the 1930s with this project. Right. So I didn't have to make up a lot, right? All I said here is based on information from the archives. But again, it's a dream in waiting. Internationalism for the UPAP was a dream in waiting. And partly because of news for honesty, stubbornness, calling whatever you want of, I won't support anything that is not truly international. And by international, I mean, they're not thinking of the rest of the world. They're thinking of Germany. So and because Germany doesn't manage to join the UPAP, so that dream is kept in waiting. And as Roberto told us yesterday, actually, it's only after the Second World War with the refoundation of all the international institutions. And having learned the mistake of not excluding the losers, that things change a lot. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Jeremy. We have a couple of minutes for questions, please. Just curious that in the first 20 years, at that time, English was not accepted as the international language. So how did the officials communicate with each other? Did they have any preferred language or each one? I mean, yes, French was the international language ever since the 19th century. It was still in the early 20th century. I think it was still a big language in after the Second World War. I think that all these meetings, these international conditions for science and so on, they are created in Brussels and in Paris. It's French creating that. So international language for a fact, it's French. But in the letters, it's very interesting because in the letters, the letters between Millican and Ruy Abram, and Ruy Abram writes in French, Millican writes in English, and they can read. I mean, perhaps I cannot speak, even even German. I mean, these people could read German, French, English quite easily. Yeah, because I heard some folklore in C4 that the chair, Blackett in the 50s, will write to a flurry who was secretary in English, and he'll reply in French. And it seems they didn't understand each other very well. It led to some fiasco. On writing, they did understand it well. But also in Millican's archives, because people had secretaries more than we have now, you can find the letters that Abram sent to Millican, the original, and a translation probably done by the secretary. So they also had that. But no, they could read these, at least these three languages quite easily. Questions, please. I have a question. Obviously, Henry Abram did a lot for Ayupap. He fought for the Union and so on, for the international spirit of the Union. And why didn't himself become the president? He was the general secretary. I mean, in history, it's very difficult to answer why something didn't happen, right? So the answer is, I don't know. But it's a chance here. So at times because the real work is done by the secretary, not by the president. Not in this case, right? Not in this case. But certainly the case of Brak, he did nothing, right? Or almost nothing. So I have a question also about something that didn't happen. You said that the problem was that Bohr refused to accept the presidency unless Germany joined, but Germany didn't join. But now the question is why didn't Germany join? Was there still a feeling that Germany should be excluded? Was it simply a failure to sign all the right papers and then it got too late because the war started? So yeah, so basically what we know, because there's some things in archives because they're closed, still we cannot look at governmental things of Germany there. But there's a few elements here. So until 1925, it's not simply the UPAP. It's all international unions. They have no relations with the losers that changed in Nagorno in 1925. And in the International Research Council, that changes 1926. Technically, from 1926, they could have joined. But that didn't happen because it was not clear. There's a very tricky point that I think Roberto mentioned yesterday about whether the first the country had to abide to the International Research Council and then the unions could come in. So as a prerequisite to join one of the unions, whether they had to join first the International Research Council, took their barrier. And that was a barrier for what counts as a country, what counts as nation and all these things which we've been talking about earlier this morning and yesterday. That's still an issue at times, right? That's number one. So in 1926, it could have happened, but in 1931, it could have happened here without a problem because here things were very clear. Still, there's a letter between Abraham and Bohr about the interpretation of what is a nation and who can join and whether one had to join the IKSU or not to join one of the unions. But then the problem looks more like the Germans not agreeing with each other on which institution, which is a national academy because they don't have one, that should join the International Union of International Physics and then things become problematic after 1933. So it's a number of steps that explain partly why that didn't happen. So it's not so much that you're saying we don't want you. It's more a tradition of, well, and who is us? The German physicists, there's no one clear. So partly bureaucratic inertia. Well, bureaucratic interpretations of the law and actually which institution that happens, I think, still today. I mean, when you have more than one national institution who is actually signing to join. So in the end, what made it happen in the early 50s? That's right. Finally happened in the early 50s. I mean, that's what Robert explained yesterday. The whole situation changed. I mean, after Second World War, all these UNESCO institutions are reshaped, reinvented, recreated. In a way, if you want to have yet another centenary in 2047, you can have another one, right? Because that can be another centenary of the UPAP and many of the other scientific things. Please, Monica. I don't know if you can briefly tell us, but those archives seem to be a gold mine because all the most eminent scientists and physicists were involved in one way or another in the activities of the Union. And I was wondering if you have really, you know, discovered documents that you found fascinating. Well, one of the, one of the, I mean, Robert, I think, could answer better about that because my task in this project is when nothing happens. And I can tell you, I didn't find much in the archives at the UPAP because there's not much kept because actually, we know that it existed at least. Some archive that Abraham was keeping, but because everything was lost from Abraham before the Second World War. But yeah, those who are working, I mean, 90% of the things in the archives are a gold mine for bureaucrats because it's. But there must be something else. Yeah, yeah, but there is something else. Perhaps Roberto wants to say something about that, about the archives. Yeah. I'm directly to Roberto because he's more into the host war thing. Unfortunately, the archives of the UPAP only have documents after the World War Two, essentially. So we had to find other documents to cover the first periods. And after World War Two, most of the documents are administrative, but then you can see. So we don't have much many documents which concern the science itself, apart from what concerns the commission works, which is where you can find documents with interesting materials. But interesting means what are the fields that should be, in a way, formalized through commissions, why not specific periods, why not for those who are post. So there are interesting materials, but not about the individuals, for example, involved. The other interesting stuff in how these individuals tried to connect with the political world in the administration of these institutions. So that that's the very interesting documents in the way Amaldi and the secretary generals and the commission members, when they address specifically these issues, how they tried to address it from the perspective of physicists within this world. So this is, but it's mostly the period of Cold War and the early post-Covid period. Unfortunately, not the first period. I won't just talk about the German case. I mean, the problem why it happened after World War Two is the different political situation. But Germany, before, I mean, before World War Two, of course, I'm talking the period before the Nazi came to power. They saw still the International Research Council and all the Union and the International Council of Scientific Unions as an institution which has been built for excluding them. And so so many Germans within the economy didn't want to join this sort of institution. So there was a conflict. And after World War Two, of course, this was no longer a particular topic within West Germany. West Germany had the need to be recognized as a country even because it could gain full sovereignty, except only in 1955. So West Germany, all scientific cooperation had a very strong diplomatic component in that the country wanted to be recognized as a stable and part of the Western world as soon as possible. And they occupied countries of Germany, namely, in particular, United States and UK, were quite willing to do this happen. So this is the different, completely different situation. And West Germany, in fact, created a unique national scientific academy that could help it to join all the international scientific institutions. So this is what it happened in the very sorry for Thank you for the very last question. Thank you. I believe you solved two mysteries in our search for how South Africa is on the 13. One is they were not there in 1922. And we've been looking for who was there. The second is, was it Rutherford who was representing them? And the answer might be Millican one of Millican students was recalled to South Africa, where he founded the electricity supply, the iron and steel supply, the marine transport and the industrial development corporation. So thanks. Okay, yeah, because in the in the official report of the meeting, it's a South Africa government. Yeah, it doesn't give a name. So yeah. Thank you once again. Thank you. Now, we move to the keynote talk under a very intriguing title, climate change from basic nonlinear physics to policy relevant science. Talk will be given by team Palmer team, please. Tim is a Royal Society research professor in climate physics. And a senior fellow at the Oxford Martin Institute. He is interested in the predictability and dynamics of weather and climate, including extreme events. He was co chair of the international scientific steering group of the world climate research program project on climate variability and predictability. After completion of his PhD at Oxford team works at UK meteorological office and later European center of medium range weather forecasts. For a large part of his career team has developed an ensemble method for the predicting uncertainty in weather and climate climate forecast. On the practical side, he has developed a work on the application of weather and climate forecast system for malaria prediction, float forecasting, crop yield estimation, and more. More recently, his research has focused on the simulating climate at extremely high resolution team. George, you're please have one hour. Thank you very much. So I thought I would give a talk which tried to draw out some aspects of the physics of climate change. And in particular, discuss this interplay between very basic ideas in nonlinear dynamics and chaos theory. On the one hand, and very applied policy relevant output. On the other hand, so I hope this kind of captures this notion of pure and applied physics. And very much this is an international activity. Climate science is very much done at the international level. So I hope this talk sort of ticks most of the boxes for a hundredth anniversary meeting like this. I thought I would start actually with one of the most pleasurable activity news items, if you like, from this year, which was two of my colleagues in my field. This is Tuki Minavi from Princeton. And the second one was Klaus Hasselman, previous director of Max Planck Institute for Meteorology in Hamburg. Both won the Nobel Prize of Physics for their work on climate modeling and climate change physics. I put Tuki Minavi's picture up in particular, because he was really one of the pioneers of the development of complex models of climate change and made some of the first very robust predictions, not only of global warming, but some of the regional details about climate change, which are now starting to manifest themselves. Now, the models that Minavi developed, as we'll see, are very much based on the laws of physics. And I would say they're primarily kind of synthesized three important laws, one being Newton's laws of motion, the other being Max Planck's famous law for explaining the black body radiation of light. And the third one, possibly the face is less well known than the other two, is Rudolf Klausius, who was one of the father figures of the laws of thermodynamics and invented, discovered whatever the right word is, the concept of entropy. So the laws of thermodynamics, laws of quantum mechanics in the form of how radiation is absorbed and scattered in the atmosphere, and the fluid dynamics of the atmosphere and the oceans are all kind of combined together into the sort of climate model that Minavi first developed back in the 60s. Now, we need these models for a variety of different things. Of course, primarily, I suppose as scientists for understanding how the climate system works, it's a complex multifaceted, multi-interacting nonlinear system. So this provides our basic tool for getting an understanding. But increasingly these days, of course, these models provide input to things like the cop talks, how bad is climate change going to be? How quickly do we need to cut our emissions of carbon dioxide? And importantly also, how can societies around the world adapt to inevitable climate change that will be happening? At the regional level, what sort of infrastructure do countries need to invest in? Is it to counteract heat waves and drought on the one hand? Or is it perhaps increased flooding or storminess on the other hand? So the models are crucial for providing that sort of input. Increasingly these days, I've done a few interviews actually with the media, particularly Italian media, as a result of being invited to give this lecture. And almost, I think all of them actually have said pretty much the first question, was the collapse of the Marmalade glacia up in the Dolomites caused by climate change? So when we get these very extreme events, there's a great sort of, I guess, desire to try to rationalize what's happening, to understand it in terms of, could we have actually caused this to happen? And again, we need these models to be able to provide any kind of quantitative answer to this type of question. And then finally, you know, from time to time one hears ideas about alternatives to cutting emissions, if we cannot get global agreement to cut emissions fast enough, is there a kind of plan B? And one possible plan B is to spray the stratosphere, the upper atmosphere with aerosols, which might reflect or would reflect sunlight back to space. And the idea is that might offset the effects of global warming. But that's actually not as straightforward as it may sound, not technologically, certainly technologically possible to spray aerosols into the stratosphere. But what's not clear is whether that really does compensate for our emissions of carbon dioxide. And one can think about specific questions like what would it do to the Asian monsoon, if we were to do that? Or what would it do to the moisture supply for the rainforest? And, you know, there's all these possibilities of unintended consequences, which may end up being worse than, you know, the disease we're trying to cure. So again, geoengineering, if we had to ever take it seriously, is a problem that can only be addressed by these complex models. Now, on the other hand, physicists, I think, tend to think, perhaps, that this is more of a problem in engineering or brute force computation. And perhaps doesn't, you know, it doesn't need any kind of subtle physical thinking to formulate ideas. So the point of my talk is really to try to persuade you that that's not the case. It's not a matter of brute force computation, although computation is super important. Supercomputers are our large Hadron colliders. You know, there are the tools we absolutely need to do our science, just as a large Hadron collider is necessary for high energy physics. So just think of it like that. Necessary, but absolutely not sufficient, and, you know, detailed physical thinking is critical as well. So like, you know, most areas in physics, we have our, we have a kind of hierarchy of models which go from very complex to, you know, intermediate complexity, right down to the very simple ones. So what I'm going to do in this talk is kind of compare and contrast this interplay between the most complex model, which is, does this include a pointer? Is there a pointer sort of stick? There are laser pointers. Oh, I have to do I choose this? Somebody have to help me. Oh, great. Oh, fantastic. Thank you. So now I forgot what I was saying, talking about, okay, complex models from this end right down to the very simplest one. So I want to talk about kind of how these two ends of the hierarchy kind of interact and inform each other. So the one at the left hand side there was Lorenz's famous three component model of chaos. Ed Lorenz was a meteorologist at MIT in the early 1960s. He came up with this famous set of three equations which kind of went against the common wisdom at the time. The idea was unpredictable systems have to be very, very complicated with many, many, many degrees of freedom. Nobody at the time I think would have guessed that a set of couple differential equations was just three degrees of freedom had this characteristic of unpredictability. But indeed Lorenz showed if you start with two virtually identical initial conditions, the time series decorrelate after a while. This is often being called the butterfly effect and somewhat coinc, well, totally coincidentally actually the equations generate in their state space of x, y and z. This fantastically beautiful and interesting fractal geometry underlying the real geometric structure of those differential equations. Now I guess I mean everyone knows this I think these days about chaos that you know systems, chaotic systems are ultimately unpredictable, small initial uncertainties will grow and eventually cause the system to lose predictability. I think what is less well known is the fact that in a nonlinear system the predictability of the system depends on the initial state. It's a direct consequence as that mathematics shows of nonlinearity. Small perturbations will grow but the rate of growth is state dependent. And that's shown in a graphical way with these three, if you like ensembles of integrations where we start with a little ring of points representing some uncertainty. And for some initial states on the Lorenz attractor, the actual evolution of this ring proceeds in an extremely predictable way. In fact, the area of the ring or the volume of the ring actually shrinks for a finite amount of time, meaning that the forecast is even more uncertain than the initial state was. But more generally we see some growth of uncertainty as the system kind of passes through this more unstable part of the attractor. And in fact, if we start down near the unstable part of the attractor we can get quite explosive growth of unpredictability. And in fact, you know, this is a very common phenomenon if we look at nonlinear systems, whether I don't know it's the economy or maybe health or war or anything, you know, we often see them then proceeding very, very predictably for long periods of time, then suddenly becoming explosively unpredictable. Now in weather forecasting, in weather forecasting, we've kind of exploited this property of this or we tried to develop techniques which will allow us to predict how predictable or unpredictable a weather situation is going to become. And this is known as ensemble forecasting. So these days pretty much every weather forecast centre around the world won't just do a single forecast every day. They'll run 50 or 100 integrations with very slightly different initial conditions. And in fact, they also add stochastic noise to the equations for to represent model uncertainty. And we can see examples. Here's three examples of, you know, there's three different types of unpredictability in the in the Lorentz model. The top one, if these are all examples of tropical cyclones, we're looking at an ensemble of tropical cyclones about a week before they hit or they make landfall. And the top one is a tropical cyclone which hit Bangladesh called Cider, which actually was pretty predictable a week ahead. The middle one is the famous Katrina that hit New Orleans and was not really very predictable a week ahead. The most likely track probably was somewhere up the Florida coast. But you can see those clearly in the distribution. There were some members which were indeed heading for New Orleans. The bottom one is completely unpredictable. So Hurricane called Nadine because it was over the sea, it didn't really do much damage to anybody. But you can see even whether it goes to the west or the east is completely unpredictable. Now, this has really changed the way in which I mean, it's affected you all, I guess, because in a trivial way, because these days when you have you look at your web app, you'll get a probability of precipitation. And these probabilities are now derived from these ensembles. But at a more serious level, it's really changing the way in which humanitarian organizations and disaster relief organizations work. And this is important in climate change because we do have to make societies more resilient to the extremes of weather, which are becoming more extreme. So what I mean is that what an aid agency now would do is look for example at the top figure and say, well, we're pretty certain this cyclone is going to hit Bangladesh. So a week ahead of time, we can put in emergency food, shelter, medicine, water to the places likely to be hit or indeed even financial aid to the places likely to be hit. So take anticipatory action. For something like Katrina, which clearly is less predictable, they would look at this map and say, well, okay, we can't act immediately because we don't really know. I mean, in the case of the US, of course, it's not an international thing so much. But we can't act the disaster agencies in the US would say, well, we can't act immediately because we don't know, but maybe wait a couple of days and then it becomes more clear. So this has developed a whole program called anticipatory action, which is really transforming the way in which international agencies work in becoming much more proactive. And it's an area which has I've been particularly interested in because it's frustrated me over the years seeing how these agent aid agencies have only gone into places being hit by hurricanes and tropical cyclones after the event was being hit when we've known, at least for some of these cases that are predictable, that they could have gone in earlier. So this is a nice example of something where actually which started by just looking at the three component Lorentz equation, that's what motivated myself and my colleagues back in the 1980s to develop these ensemble techniques to something now which is really providing relief to people around the world. Okay, so I want to say a bit more about the models, the complex models now. And I just use the Navier-Stokes equations Newton's laws of motion. You know, density times, well, f equals ma essentially. Now these are partial nonlinear partial differential equations, they're essentially mathematically equations in an infinite dimensional state space. We have to solve them numerically by discretizing these equations, projecting them onto some finite grid. And then what's called parameterizing all of the processes like clouds and turbulence and flow over small scale mountains that can't be resolved, you know, that are smaller than the truncation scale. And the parameterizations are typically very simple formulae, kind of semi empirical formulae. They're not rigorously based on the partial differential equations, but they're necessary. You might think of them, you know, as closure types of equations, but in the sense they are more than closure equations, they're equations to try to represent important processes that can't be resolved in a simplified form, computationally simplified form. And the method, the philosophy underlying these parameterizations is kind of drawn from statistical mechanics. You imagine you have an ensemble, let's take a cloud, let's say it's a cloud system, thunderstorm type system, you say, well, you know, we can't resolve the thunderstorm, but maybe within a grid box, we have an ensemble, you know, like a micro economical ensemble of thunderstorms. And we derive a kind of bulk formula for these thunderstorms within a grid box. That's the philosophy that underpins parameterization. But as we'll see, it's not a very good philosophy. And the reason is that the Navier-Stokes equations have some wonderful, mathematically wonderful, at least, symmetry properties. And one of them is what are called scaling symmetries, which means that, you know, it's a consequence of which is that when you zoom into a turbulent fluid, you kind of see the same thing. There's a scale in variance, and that can be represented mathematically. And that's done in math, I won't go through it, but mathematical descriptions of Navier-Stokes. And it leads to these power law phenomena for energy spectra in the atmosphere as a function of scale. So he's a log log plots of energy in the atmosphere as a function of scale. And there are basically two power laws. There's a steep one for large scales, and a shallower one for smaller scales. The delineation between the steep and the small is related to the rotation of the earth. For small scales, they don't really feel the rotation of the earth. Large scales do feel the rotation of the earth, and that leads to a different structure. Now, what this power law structure means, in principle, is that we don't actually have this notion of a little micro canonical ensemble. We have a whole scale of, say, thunderstorm clouds. We have individuals, clouds at small scales, medium ones where the cloud has grown and maybe merged with some of those small ones, and very intense what we call mesoscale structures where lots of individual storms have coalesced into one. And we have this therefore, this kind of power spectrum of scales. So one way of trying to deal with that in a computational model where we don't have the resources to model those clouds individually is actually through stochasticity. And this is something I, again, I've worked on for many, many years, to actually sort of blur out this truncation scale. And the idea is that we introduce noise through this stochastic variable R. And the idea is that the noise is actually correlated both in time and space on scales larger than the truncation scale. So it spills over to have correlations over several time steps and several grid lengths. And that helps to kind of blur out some of the effects of this truncation. If you're interested in more details, I wrote a review paper in nature, reviews in physics, I can send people the link or indeed the PDF if they're interested. Now a question, you know, colleagues, I think were initially, my own colleagues were initially a little bit bemused by this idea that adding noise to a model could actually make it more accurate. So we were looking for simple examples where actually this might could be demonstrated. So here's one very simple idea going back to Lorentz again, where we add these are three stochastic variables which we add to the governing equations. The top figure here is the time series of the Lorentz model for one of the variables in it when it's run in this deterministic mode. And the second one is when you add stochasticity. And what you can see is that the model continues to be unpredictable, but these regimes, so that there are these regimes which basically correspond to the two lobes of that butterfly attractor. The stochastic seems to stabilize the regimes, so they last longer. So it turns out that we see exactly that same effect when we add stochasticity to climate models. Now this, what I'm about to say, I'm condensing into one slide kind of the topic of a, what could be an hour long talk. So you're just going to have to sort of take my word for some of what I'm about to tell you. This y-axis is a measure of how well a simulation does in representing these quasi-persistent regimes in the atmosphere. And the one on the far left is, if you like, ground truth. It's using observations. So what this says is there's almost 100% probability that the real atmosphere has these quasi-persistent regimes, which kind of isn't a big surprise, I don't think, if you knew about the weather. But these are different models and the resolution of the models varies from, let's say, several hundred kilometers. This is a so-called spectral resolution, which I don't, to do with the spherical harmonic representation of the waves in the atmosphere. I'm not going to go into that, but an equivalent grid point spacing is several hundred kilometers, which is very typical of today's, many of today's climate models, through to a kind of advanced weather forecast model with much higher resolution. And you can see that resolution improves the significance of the regimes. But these two dots in the middle here, this is a model run without stochastic parameterization. And the middle one is the same resolution, but with stochastic parameterization. And you can see, like the Lorentz model, there's this increase in the sort of persistence of these regimes. So basically, the stochasticity has, you can think of the regimes like potential wells, if you like, which the state gets stuck in from time to time. At low resolution or in a purely deterministic way, models, unless they have very high resolution, tend to have potential wells, which are too weak. And in the real world, they're much deeper. Now, why should we care about this? I just want to give an example, which is relevant to my own country, the UK. You know, we're currently putting in a lot of wind turbines into the North Sea. And, you know, this is supposed to be part of our strategy to, well, this is part of our strategy. It's not supposed to be, it is part of our strategy to become more or less carbon dependent. So as we turn off coal and oil and gas power stations, it'll be replaced by these renewable types of energy. Solar is not a great, as you know, in the UK, great, not a great energy provider in winter. But on the whole, wind tends to be reasonably good, except that there are these periods where the wind doesn't actually blow. And 2021 was an example of a year where the wind didn't blow that much across the North Sea. There was a persistent anti-cyclone high pressure system, which is an example of a weather regime, one of these quasi-persistent, quasi-stationary weather regimes, which led to most of these wind turbines hardly moving. So a key question for this type of policy is can we rely on wind energy in the future, particularly as we kind of decarbonise transport and an industry, and switch more of the processes to electrical production, which requires the grid to be, electric grid to be robust and reliant. So the question is, is the prevalence of these high pressure anti-cyclones is going to increase or decrease in the future? This is really a quite a critical question for this type of problem. And as I say, at the moment, the resolution of climate models is actually not good enough to answer this question reliably. This is clearly a case where we need higher resolution, but where this stochastic work, again, driven by just looking at very simple rents model, could indeed play something quite a useful and important role. Okay, so we can offset, as I say, we can offset some of the complications of high resolution with stochasticity, but on the whole, as we, you know, as we move towards more and more policy relevant work with our climate models, we do need more and more computer power. As I say, computer power is our large Hadron Collider, if you like. We can't do a lab experiment to see what climate change is going to be like. So we either have to wait till it happens, or we have to try and predict it with models. But, you know, currently available high performance computing constrains what is possible. So again, one of the things that I, with my group we've been looking at are ways in which we can make the code cheaper, more efficient to run on supercomputers. And one area that's intrigued me as a direct result of stochasticity, and again, I stress, you know, a lot of those insights came from looking at Lorentz. Is this issue in computational numerical science of where, you know, I was taught, you know, back when I was a student, that if you do scientific computation, you better do, you better represent your numbers, your real numbers, with 64 bits, so-called double precision floating point representations. That's the kind of safest option. You don't get problems from round off errors and so on and so forth. Okay, so that's fine if you haven't got a very complicated calculation. But if you've got billions and billions of variables, and you're wanting to make an integration over 100 years or so, then these 64 bits per variable is a real constraint on what you can do. And if you think that the equations should have some inherent stochasticity in them to avoid, you know, messing up too much the scale in various properties of the equations, then perhaps there's an argument for not needing such precision. So again, we can get some insight into this going back to Lorentz. So what does that Lorentz attractor look like? If, for example, we were to reduce precision down to 16 bits, half precision, which is frequently used in AI these days, what would happen? Okay, so this is just an example. This is the representation of the Lorentz attractor, where x, y, and z are represented with 64 bits, and you get a sort of, you know, what is a kind of mess here, but it's ultimately reflecting the chaotic nature of the Lorentz system. If you reduce it to 16 bits, and there are different ways of reducing it to 16 bits, you know, which basically depend on the number of mantissa bits to exponent bits, but you basically end up with a much kind of sparser looking attractor. And in fact, what you're doing here is generating a periodic attractor. In fact, this even this thing is ultimately periodic, but this is these with 16 bits are much more periodic. In other words, they kind of repeat themselves. And if you're looking to, you know, generate extreme weather that maybe has not been seen in the last thousands of years, having a model that's periodic is not going to be good. However, there's a technique now called stochastic rounding. And this is very much in keeping with this idea of stochastic dynamics, which, which means you can kind of restore your system back to the original attractor, but just with 16 bit numerics. And I want to give you a very simple example of what stochastic rounding means. By considering these numbers here, which have been represented that the shading, the grayness or blackness, if you like, or whiteness has been represented with three bits of grayness. Now, if I just truncate it to one bit, and that one bit mean just zero or one black or white, then everything greater than 50% is rounded to black and everything less than 50% is rounded to white. So you've lost a loss of the definition. And you can't see anything that's less than 50%. On the other hand, if you round stochastically to, to either black or white, so each bit, you, instead of saying you say greater than 50%, you always round to black, you say you round in a probabilistic way. And the nearest is the nearer the number is to black, the higher the probability you round to black, but there's still a non zero probability you might round to white. And similarly down here, although most of the time you would round to white, there's a chance, 15% chance you round to black. And then you can see you, all of the numbers have magically reappeared. So noise is very much can be a very much a positive resource for nonlinear systems. And there's plenty of examples of nonlinear systems which benefit from noise. And I've given an example before with these weather regimes. Here's another one. And these are some simulations of turbulence in a sort of simpler than a climate model, but with 64 bits, 16 bits. So you can see there's a degradation with 16 bits, but with this stochastic rounding, we get something pretty close to what, what the original was. And for, I've been sort of arguing for some years now that, you know, traditionally high performance computers have always been sold, if you like, as completely deterministic, bit reproducible machines. The trouble is we're paying a big energy overhead for bit reproducibility. And in many cases, it's actually not needed. So as far as climate modeling, and I suspect a lot of other computations in in science, we would actually benefit from imprecise computers, where the energy could be used more, you know, more productively to do more calculations, rather than ensuring a fewer number of calculations are done deterministically. I was very pleased to see recently a company called Graphcore, starting to produce chips now, which actually have this stochastic rounding in hardware. So it might represent the first step towards more inherently stochastic computation. I could say a lot about AI. I mentioned it very briefly. And again, I think AI is another way to accelerate computer code. And we're doing quite a lot of work. Now that we've developed these 16 bit numerics of replacing some of these parameterizations stochastic parameterizations with kind of neural nets and things which are based on, you know, just simple matrix numerics, which are much faster than the original things. And for things like chemistry and biology and, you know, ice sheet dynamics and things, this really makes a big, this is important in improving the throughput. But I'm not going to talk about that because there's no time. In fact, I'm not really going to talk about this either. But we do have a little bit of work in my group. I've got a postdoc. We're working with a group at MIT. And we've developed a, I have a sort of background in quantum mechanics. And in fact, I did my PhD in general relativity and quantum mechanics many, many years ago. So I have a sort of quite a good background in quantum mechanics. We've developed a, an algorithm for solving nonlinear differential equations on quantum computers, which I won't go into now. It's on the archive and it's in review. And we're applying it to some simple nonlinear differential equations. And we're in progress to try to solve Lorentz 63 on a real quantum computer. I don't think actually this is going to take, this will be many years before this really has impact on real weather and climate computing. So this is not something for the next five or six years, but maybe in the longer term, there may be something here. But it's an interesting, I think, area to explore. And it's part of, as I say, this sort of interplay between pure and applied physics. But I'm going to finish, I don't know what time I started, but I'll finish just with the last, got five minutes or so. Is that okay? Yeah, I'm going to finish with, you know, something which I suppose maybe goes to the heart of this international organization, International Union, which is that, let me start by saying, as I think was mentioned in the introduction, I worked for many years at an organization called the European Center for Medium Range Weather Forecasts, which is actually based in the UK. All I have to say now with Brexit certain parts of it are unfortunately moving to other European countries to overcome the legalistic problems of getting EU funding in a country that's no longer part of the EU. That's another issue. But in any case, from a science perspective, the European Center for Medium Range Weather Forecast, which was set up in the 1970s. And it's basically philosophy was to take the best talent, best human talent, and the biggest computer resources by pooling human and computer resources across the continent. Pretty much from the first day it started producing weather forecasts, it's been the most skillful weather forecast center in the world, bar none. When I was there, I had endless numbers of American representatives, administrators from the funding agencies, you know, like NASA and NOAA and NSF and so on, DOE, asking me, you know, what is the success of this European Weather Center? And I said, well, it's just simply, we're drawing from the best talent across Europe and the member states have pooled resources to allow us to buy what at the time were pretty much the biggest supercomputers in the world. And again, a very similar philosophy to CERN. But we don't have anything like that for climate change. The IPCC Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Assessments is done by, you know, asking the climate institutes around the world to produce climate projections with models. And they try to synthesize, you know, they maybe have 50 or so different models, 40 or so. I don't know the exact number now. And, you know, they do a sort of synthesis probabilistic synthesis of that ensemble of models. But as we saw, when you have models which maybe have very coarse resolution, they will predict climate, they will predict global warming pretty well. But getting down to the regional detail like these weather regimes and extreme weather events, they do much less well. And we don't have anything like kind of a CERN for climate change where, again, the best resources are applied to this problem. And I would argue this really is a serious problem. Anyone doesn't believe in climate change these days must be like I said to a journalist just in the coffee break must be like an ostrich with your head in the sand. I mean, just look around you, it's obvious. But we don't know how bad it will go, how bad it will be in the future. And for many countries in the world, we don't know actually whether drought and flood, sorry, drought and heat wave are a more of a problem or less of a problem than enhanced storminess and flood. So getting precipitation right at the regional scale is a real challenge, which is not properly met with these current generation of sort of university national institute level models. We need something at an international level to do a much better job. And this international level would have dedicated 100% dedicated exascale computing. We're now just literally in the era of exascale, 10 to the power 18 floating point operations per second. But climate institutes at the moment just get a tiny fraction if the tool of one of these things. If they're, I mean, some of them are just used for national security. So scientists never see them at all. The ones that are funded for science, they're funded for a broad range of science. And so a climate model would only get a few percent at most. So we need these things dedicated to climate. It probably has to be done at the international level. I've kind of argued this for years and years. This was an article in physics world that was in nature. And then, but just recently, I mean, this literally this is from Italian newspaper over the weekend, which they interviewed me purely because I was giving this talk today. So I kind of raised it again. So, you know, how to go about achieving that is complex. I mean, it shouldn't be complex because we're not talking about huge amounts of money here. You know, by comparison with the Large Hadron Collider or the James Webb telescope, or indeed many just ordinary satellite missions, this is not a big amount of money. We reckon about 100 million dollars or euros a year is this is sort of ballpark figure for doing this. But actually raising that type of money on a sustained level is not actually been easy to do. And I certainly be interested to hear ideas about how to pursue that more. So I think I finished. I'm just going to make an unashamed advertisement for a book. You know, we've all had our topics over COVID, the COVID lockdown. Mine was to write a popular science book about the science of uncertainty. I tried to include a lot of different stuff from weather and climate through to economics and even kind of comparing uncertainty in chaotic systems and quantum systems. So it comes out in the autumn in October. So if you're interested in buying a Christmas present for your family, that's the one again. So thank you very much. Thank you very much for this fantastic, interesting talk. And I see already some hands raised, Silvina, please. Okay, first from the audience. Thank you. Beautiful talk. I'm interested in this, adding noise to the equations and catching these quasi-stationary states. And I was wondering whether you were adding just wide noise or the noise is determined based on simulations or observations of the shortest scales that you're not including in your modeling. That's one question. And the other one is you are able to catch these quasi-stationary states. And so what about these extreme events that you're trying to, I don't know if exactly predict, but being able to see if you're not just shutting them off because of the addition of these noise? On the first question, okay, so the two different answers. In terms of the Lorentz model, indeed, the ability to enhance these quasi-stationary regimes does depend on how colored the noise is. And to some extent, the redder the noise, the better the enhancement is. But in general terms, I mean, this is actually quite a non-linear process. So improving the stock, sorry, improving the persistence time scale is a kind of non-linear function of both the amplitude and the color of the noise. So there's a kind of sweet spot where you get the sort of maximal impact. If the noise is too high amplitude or too colored, actually it reduces the persistence. Now, for weather forecast models, as I say, we we do have the noise is colored over, you know, multiple time steps and multiple spatial grid lengths. What we do is we look at, you know, I showed you that power spectrum, if you have a deterministic model, you can see that the power spectrum, which should be this shallow minus five first suddenly becomes very steep as you approach the truncation scale. And it starts to steepen about an order of magnitude or a bit more than the order of magnitude in scale before you hit the truncation scale. So that determines the color, if you like, and the spatial correlation of the noise so that it has correlations on about an order of magnitude of time steps and grid lengths. Now, whether that hits the sweet spot for this increasing this persistence, we don't really know actually, and that's work, you know, to be done. So that's a sort of short answer. Thanks a lot. I would like, if you see this problem of say climate modeling as a scientific problem, I found it wonderful in its beauty and extraordinary difficult. On the other hand, this is a very special problem because of the political implications of this issue. And actually, I'm planning to read your book about the primacy of doubt. But on the other hand, I feel that if in science we like doubts, we like to put everything. But on the other hand, this could be a vital problem for mankind. And so you have to make plans and program and so on. I must say, my friend in my institution, mathematical physicists who know intimately the problem of chaos that you're discussing, I think secretly or not so secretly are doubts about the IPCC things and so on, because they know that a problem with so many scales of such a difficulty, it's really difficult to control. And some of them a problem are torn between the ethical duty to contribute to saving the planet and their scientific integrity and their doubts. And I feel that this is a problem that, well, there is your book is called the Primacy of Doubt. There are, well, I know there is a book called Merchants of Doubt to criticize. And I think actually, I see this is a real political problem. There are non-scientific views which are presented to the world. So actually, this is the theme that I'm, so I would like to invite you a comment about, well, first of all, with given that you are a scientist and you analyze critically things, do you think that the estimate that IPCC are robust and they present a reasonable range of uncertainty? And more in general, on this problem which I see is scientifically, I think it's, I mean, I don't work on that, but I found it fantastically beautiful to analyze so many things and so on. Do you, I think actually some of the people who read who know about this, they know about Lawrence and so this little equation can do all this mess. People are calculating the climate for 30 years. So how can they get it right? So how do you find that what I think is an ethical duty of supporting mitigation and the presenting science and the fact that the essence of science is doubt? Right. The essence of science is indeed doubt. By the way, that phrase I got from the biography of Richard Feynman by James Glick and he said about Feynman that he believed in the primacy of doubt, not as a blemish on our ability to know, but as the essence of knowing. And that kind of really resonated with me and I drew those words from that quotation. And I feel very strongly that, you know, in this climate debate, we have to be honest. And if we're not honest, you know, it can backfire. You know, we can say things that 10 years later may turn out to be untrue. And if people say, well, you lied then or you covered up the uncertainty then, how can we trust you now? So I think it's vitally important to be honest. Now, you know, in a sense, so the first question is, do we trust the IPCC models? It depends what question you're asking about them. If you're asking the question about, you know, are we heading for a warmer planet as a whole? Unquestionably, you know, the IPCC models are giving us a robust answer in the positive. Yes, we are. How warm it will get. Again, we don't know. And some of the so called cloud feedbacks are still very profoundly uncertain. So whether, you know, we're heading for a world where large parts of the tropics become utterly uninhabitable because of heat waves that human body can't survive, or whether, you know, it'll be maybe a little bit worse than today. We don't know the answer to that question. We absolutely don't know the answer to the question about how regional climate change will manifest itself in many countries because of this problem with precipitation. Now, I don't think any of these things, you know, mean that politicians shouldn't take climate change seriously. You know, it's a bit like saying, if I said to you there was a probability of a hurricane, you know, hitting your town mayor and the hurricane of 70%. I mean, that's my best estimate of uncertainty in that hurricane. It's up to you to decide whether that uncertainty is high enough to take precautionary action maybe by evacuating people or making sure they go to shelters or whatever. That's the job of the politician to take the information and make that decision about whether the action is worth reducing the risk. In a way, it's not the scientist's job. I don't think to do that. We present scientific information about what a molecule of carbon dioxide will do, then the politicians will decide. As far as Lorentz is concerned, I mean, you know, sometimes climate, let's call them deniers or skeptics, whatever word you want to use. We kind of say, well, the atmosphere is chaotic. How can we possibly predict anything 100 years from now? But just think about, you know, in six months time, we'll be in the depths of winter. I think I can make quite a categorical assertion. It'll be cooler in London and certainly in London, probably in Trieste as well, six months from now, despite the fact we can't predict the detailed evolution of the weather. So, you know, I often use the Lorentz model. I didn't show it. That's what I should have done today. If you just stick in a constant forcing into that model, what you do is you bias one of the regimes, one of the lobes of the attractor becomes a little bit bigger, and one of them becomes a little bit smaller. You lose that symmetry between the two attractors. And so the probability of being in one regime is larger and the other is smaller. So, you know, in terms of climate change, you could think of one of those regimes as like a warm regime or something and the other as a cool regime. So, you're increasing the probability, you know, just like the annual cycle changes the probability of warm and cold weather on an annual cycle. So, anyway, so there's no, there's no, you know, there's no inconsistency between the climate being chaotic and our ability to predict how external forcing, you know, like our emissions of carbon dioxide will change that system. And we do know enough about the basic physics and the IPCC models back us up that the world is warming potentially catastrophically, but we're not sure about that. But to have a much sharper picture of what it means at a regional level, we do need much higher resolution. It would be nice. I'm a confess I don't know enough about UPAP to, I'd be happy to discuss that over lunch or whatever, but it would be great if they did, for sure. Thank you. If I remember correctly, around 1990 or 2000, for about 15 years, the global temperature was almost constant. Is that well understood that now? It's well understood in the sense that it originated from the tropical, from, it's sort of originated from the tropical latitude. So there was a kind of decadal timescale period where the trade winds were stronger than normal. And the effect that had on the ocean temperatures was to up well cooler water from particularly in the eastern Pacific, and that cooler water did have an impact on global temperatures. So certainly the rate of increase of global warming slowed down, whether it actually completely slowed to zero is kind of a slightly difficult question because, you know, for various reasons. But so it's well understood. But the other question is how well do the models simulate that sort of decadal, what's believed to be a sort of internal decadal mode? And the answer is most models didn't do a good job or don't do a good job of simulating that decadal mode. So that's an example of a sort of flaturation in global temperature that is kind of captured by some models, but certainly not all models. And again, resolution seems to be a key issue. But it should be remembered that was a fairly you know, transient blip, if you like, on the on the overall time series of global temperature from the mid 20th century to the present day. We've currently warmed about a degree and a quarter compared to, say, the beginning of the 20th century. And the time series is by no means monotonic. But you know, you can fit a monotonic curve through it, which is not, which is pretty good. There are questions from internet participants. Jack Tech. Okay. So, so Tom asks, thank you for this amazing talk. What is your opinion on current level on the current level of funding for complex systems, research as as compared to other research areas in physics in general? And what is your advice to younger generations of students who would like to pursue this direction of research? How can we help and support them? Well, you can, you can certainly help by trying to get, you know, into a PhD program to to work on this, this area, this interplay between physics and climate. I think, you know, there is unfortunately work to be done by the community as a whole to persuade both, I mean, politicians, politicians, but also actually to be honest, civil servants in government, that the science of climate change, science of climate, science of complex systems is not all done and dusted. There's a kind of, there's a kind of attitude amongst a lot of the civil servants that I've talked to, which is kind of, well, yeah, okay, I sort of see what you're getting. But you know, we, we, we think we know what we know from reading IPCC reports or something like that. So we're, and what we really need to do is focus on, you know, building better batteries or, you know, bigger wind turbines, whatever, or, you know, whatever it is, better, better storage. So I'm not against, of course, I'm not against all of that, but it is important that we get the science right. And we get this and there's, there is, there are these profound uncertainties about regional science. So we do have to find ways of, you know, convincing the funding agencies that actually this is a serious problem. This is not just something where we put a few spare dollars into, but this is central to the whole strategy and climate resilience and mitigation. Thank you. There is one second question on Zoom. It says, thank you for the amazing presentation. Considering one of your previous talks, I was wondering how does the addition of noise could have an impact on the real butterfly effect, as wasn't introduced by you before? Well, yeah, I'm sort of struggling because to explain what the questioner means by the real butterfly effect, I have to, which we don't have time, we have to go into a little bit of theory, which is that the predictability properties of the Navier-Stokes equations are quite complex. And there is a possibility, an unproved possibility that there may actually be a finite predictability horizon for the Navier-Stokes equations, which I think I'll not talk about. But noise, yeah, noise is an important way of making sure we don't, again, it comes to the point of being honest. We have to give realistic, reliable assessments of probabilities, whether we're forecasting the weather or the climate. We don't want to be overconfident. We don't want to be underconfident either. So the merchants, I've just come back to the merchants of doubt, merchants of doubt deliberately played on uncertainty that wasn't justified. What I'm trying to argue is we have to be honest, but we have to get it right. Noise, adding noise to models is a vital way of getting it right. And without noise, we produce overconfident forecasts. And in terms of weather prediction, you very quickly get found out. If you produce overconfident forecasts, you know, it only takes a year or so of data, and you see that very clearly. Of course, with climate change, it's not that easy. So noise is important to represent and get quantitatively the right probability. So in that sense, yes, it does play into this real butterfly effect issue, but I don't think there's time to talk about that in detail. So I'm wondering about the use of quantum computation for doing this. There are certain problems that are known to have a quantum advantage and other problems like arithmetic in which there isn't any quantum advantage. So I'm wondering, is it known that this weather problem is something for which a quantum computer gives an advantage? And do you really mean a quantum computer in the sense of something that's fault tolerant as opposed to say quantum simulation, which might be much more realistic in the near term to have a quantum simulator? And then a somewhat related question is what about classical analog computing? Yes. So on the first point, well, as I say, we've developed with jointly with a group, Seth Lloyd's group at MIT, we've developed an algorithm for solving nonlinear differential equations, which has a quantum advantage. And we've demonstrated that for very simple nonlinear differential equations, we're nowhere near yet being able to do it for Navier-Stokes. So I mentioned it more as a kind of an intriguing result rather than anything that's going to be practically important in the near future. But I am intrigued by the possibility, and this is something we do want to look at this year, that the noise in quantum circuits, if you like, again could be something we can play to our advantage. And Lorentz, I mean, Lorentz 63, if you rewrite it in a rotated basis, where the axes are sort of the, what would be called the empirical orthogonal functions or principal components. So the third one just explains like a few percent of the variance of the system. And you represent that by not a differential equation, but noise. You actually get a very close, you can simulate the Lorentz attractor pretty well actually, the main structure of the Lorentz attractor comes very well. So we want to take that insight and say, okay, could we apply a kind of noisy quantum system to actually just solve the two differential equations that in that rotated basis, using this algorithm and let the noise in the intrinsic circuitry do work to our advantage. And I think the answer will depend on the characteristics of the noise, which we're not quite sure whether it is like what I said to an earlier speaker. Getting an advantage really, because we're dealing with a non-linear system, the noise has to be, if it's too big or too weak, it won't do what you want it to do. So that's the kind of key question. Is the noise of the right characteristic that it'll be an advantage? We just don't know the answer to that. Would it? Is that a question or a statement? Question. Well, we don't know. Analog computing is, I think the answer is, I think in the future, we're going to be seeing hybrid systems, which are part digital. I mean, there are certain things which you can't do easily with analog, but certain things you can't. You can. And in a way, exploiting the noise, by the way, in a chip is a sort of a, it's a little bit, that's analog-y, because the noise is a physical thing, that it's not a pseudo-random number generator. It's the real McCoy. It's either quantum or thermal, at least. So I think the future will actually be very much hybrid heterogeneous computing, where we have partly bit reproducible deterministic, partly stochastic, partly analog. I'm sort of intrigued by this idea of photonic computing, which is kind of semi-analog, and maybe a bit of quantum. Time will tell, I think. Sir, human. Very last question, please. Yeah. So human bodies itself are dynamical system, human body. Human body, yes. Yeah. So this chaotic behavior is probably be observed inside the human body, because it's totally dependent on the initial condition. A slight change in the initial condition will exactly change your mindset and each and everything. And the major cause of this is the hot attacks, because sometimes the periodicity of the heart is, because of this blood circulation is just going to be completing changes, and the periodic system is changing into a periodic system. Is there any possibility that due to this computer programming, we can minimize these heart attacks? Or we can control the human body here? I don't know. Right. Right. Right. Right. I mean, the sort of picture that's come up in my mind, which may not be relevant, is something that the famous physicist John von Neumann once said, which is that we might be actually able to control the weather by going to the parts of the world where the evolution of weather is most sensitive to small perturbations, and then changing those, somehow actively changing those perturbations. So we control the way the weather works. So I think what you're arguing in a similar way is a kind of what I think it's now called chaotic control of the human body. So maybe, I think in principle, you might be right in practice. I've not enough of an expert to know for sure. But in theory, yeah, why not? Okay, dear friends, Kim stays with us for lunch. Yep. For cocktail. Yeah, I'm here till tomorrow. Yes. Therefore, we can continue to ask questions. Now, thanks a lot. So we resume at 2 p.m. exact. Another announcement is that one of the participants has tested positive. I think the person has contacted the close contacts, but just be prudent. Good afternoon. We think we should start on the hour so that we cannot run behind time. A number of people are still coming back into the podium and into the auditorium. Good afternoon. Am I audible enough? Yes. I think we're going to start. It is already 2 o'clock. We don't want to run behind time. It gives me great pleasure to welcome you all to the first of the afternoon sessions, which is titled Africa and the Middle East Achievement and Expectations. We extend a special welcome to all those joining us remotely online from elsewhere in the world. And as evidently hinted on the title, the intention of the session is to have a one hour long platform to reflect briefly on the achievements and positive impact that the IUPEP has had on Africa and the Middle East as a region. But also, most importantly, to get a sense of what more the Union can do in addition to the present activities in order to address regional expectations and to enhance and enrich the programs of the Union. What are the immediate pressing needs that the Union could try to address, as a means to deepen impact and broaden our footprint? I will be jointly facilitating this session with Dr. Igle Gled Hill, who is on my immediate right, a fellow South African and the past chair of IUPEP, a women group number five on women in physics and a permanently active voice of physics, not only in South Africa, but throughout the world. And my name is Ruzanine Mutudi, Associate Secretary General of the IUPEP. A number of you may have received emails from me and I assist in organizing conferences that we support throughout the world as the Union. I am also a South African, I work for Itemba Labs. Now, in an attempt to assist us in meeting the objective of the session, we have put together a wonderful panel of three eminent scientists. And in order of their presentation, they will be from my far right. And we'll be starting with Dr. Marielle about, about, but Marielle is from Benin. She's the coordinator of XTech Lab, the first X-ray techniques platform established in Benin. She is involved in a number of actions to support the development of research and education in Africa. And presently she serves on the steering committee of the African Crystallographic Association. She's also a member of LEM Executive Committee. And she, in terms of her career highlight, she got her PhD in organic chemistry from the University of Abu-Mei in Benin. And she spent a postdoctoral stint as a research at the University of Zurich supported by the Swiss government. Her research focuses on the development of place-based material for environmental remediation. She uses X-ray diffraction as the main technique in her studies and works on the structural analysis of different types of clay and their use in the synthesis of functionalized materials such as absorbance and photocatalysis for applications in wastewater treatment. And in September 2017, she was awarded the first prize of the international competition called my thesis in three minutes. And in 2019, she was nominated as magnesium in the periodic table of younger chemists by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry, our sister union. Now it is my pleasure to invite Mariella to the podium to give us the first presentation. I think her presentation will be titled Towards a Pan-African Experimental Platform. Thank you very much. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you very much for attending this session. I'm very grateful to IU-PAP for inviting me, for giving me the opportunity to present what is going to be a Pan-African experimental platform dedicated to the use of X-ray techniques for training and scientific research, I mean S-TECH lab. So for my presentation, I will be talking about West Africa, the current contest in West Africa. Then I will present the S-TECH lab initiative, which is basically a story of light source. And finally, I will share our expectation from IU-PAP. So I'm from Benin, a West African country, which is part of the economic community of West African states, ECOWAS. And when saying West Africa, I'm talking about 16 countries and nearly 400 million people, which includes a part of the largest youth population in the world. I'm also talking about a place which suffers from a poor quality of education, a severe deficit of skill, labor, scientists, engineers, etc. As you can see, more than half of the world's out-of-school children are living in Sub-Saharan Africa. And it's well known that every year, 20 million young Africans enter the workforce, but only 3 million find formal employment because of the lack of training and skills. So Africa, but especially West Africa, is where scientists and researchers can run out of everything, including water and electricity, to do their job. So this reality shows how much we need to build capacities and skills on seat, how much we need new educational models that facilitate regional access to knowledge and skills. So that's a step lab, which is a brilliant idea. A step lab came out from what we call an alignment of staffs, because several institutions from different countries, different places in the world, think about the same thing at the same time. So a step lab was born, takes to an interaction between the Benin government through the semi-city project and the LEMP project. That's also for Africa, the Americas, Asia, Middle East, and Pacific project, which is itself an IUPAP and IUCI initiative. And all these were possible thanks to a scientist from CEA in France, Thierry Dalmeda, who had been appointed by LEMP to travel to Benin for this purpose. So a step lab is a regional training platform dedicated to the use of S-ray techniques for scientific and technological research. And the goal is to provide hands-on experience with the use of cutting-edge S-ray equipment, but also to meet the requirements of feeder facility that allow the preparation of samples to be studied at advanced light source in the world. We also aim to contribute to the emergence of a community of S-ray experts in Africa who will contribute to the future Pan-African-Sancrotron project. So started in 2019, a step lab is currently the first regional training platform fully dedicated to hands-on experience with the use of cutting-edge S-ray equipment. We have organized free training sessions and 12 African countries have been represented during this session, including the countries like Nigeria and Ethiopia. 20 experts, 20 lecturers have been involved in this initiative and more than 80 researchers have been trained during this training session. And now we have more than 1000 undergraduate students who have been initiated to crystallography and symmetry operation at the public university. So participants in S-tech lab are trained in two parallel tracks, crystallography and S-ray diffraction techniques including both single and powder diffraction, but also the absorption and phase contrast S-ray imaging using mathematical tools. We call it engineering mathematical engineering. So as you can see here, the participants are from several scientific fields including physics, chemistry, and material science. One of the main achievements from this training session is that the first for the first time in Berlin a crystal structure of new molecules synthesized by a local researcher had been solved. Instead of studying it abroad, as we used to do, the first time this molecule has been synthesized and crystallized and its structure had been solved on site. And actually this crystal structure is already registered to in the Cambridge structural database. A lot of publications came out from this training session as we can see in the table here. And we have also some interesting projects ongoing on the T-codes in order to study the microstructure of this material and to improve the utilization of this material in many applications. This is some photos from the previous session. You have the S-tech lab facility here and here the photo from the previous training session just to give you an insight. And here is a photo from the workshop to the undergraduate student at the public university because to date classical physics and chemistry training programs are very limited in our public university and they are restricted to theoretical courses which leave almost no room for practice or experimentation. So here we organize a 100% practical workshop for this student to help them use symmetry operation for paving a plan to know how it's possible to do this kind of theoretical notion in the in the daily life. So the next session will be held in November, the next training session will be held in November in Benin. Now our expectation from IUPAP as you can see in this table, the second columns show where we are currently. The third one shows where we wish to go by 2030 and the last one the most important what we need to achieve these goals. So basically we need financial and human resources but more close collaboration between S-tech lab and IUPAP. So don't worry I can send you this table at the end of my talk. So just one word about Semicity, Semicity which is the host institution of S-tech lab is one of the Benin government flagship project which aims to create a world-class knowledge and innovation center in West Africa. So Semicity starts its second phase of development and is seeking leading partners of key in key sectors to develop skills that meet regional demands. I have one pleasure here maybe he will help me to share this paper yes you can and it will allow you to have more information about Semicity because this is an excellent opportunity it's about a new call for projects from Semicity to develop new programs with major institution around the world or you can also use this opportunity to support our activities at S-tech lab and at Semicity. So if you allow me I would like to thank again IUPAP for the opportunity thank you very much I'm very grateful and also I would like to thank the S-tech lab makers I have some people here Sikazim, Tengwa, Michele Zema, Claude Bona the head of Semicity Thierry Dalmeda the S-tech lab lecture boards who are doing an amazing work and also my colleague Dr. Sidhuangun. We have a lot of partners here I leave some spaces for IUPAP and other partners. Thank you very much for your attention. Thank you Maria. Could we give Maria a round of applause once more? Our second speaker will be Andrea Lucy who will be introduced by my colleague. You may well have heard of Sesame the Centrachon light for experimental science in and applications in the Middle East neatly spelling Sesame by some coincidence which is wonderful but I'm not sure if you know Andrea Lucy the new scientific director as of February this year. So he will be talking to us about the Middle East and Andrea has been very much involved with Eletra here in Trieste has been involved with communications with various committees and with the formation of beam lines. I think he's the kind of beam line specialist that makes everyone beam. Is there anything else I should say about you? Is that about it? That's about it. Welcome and please take over. Thank you IUPAP for putting some attention on Sesame in this day of today and I would like to remember you that while we are celebrating the 100 years of IUPAP we are also celebrating at the same time this very same year. Can you hear me? Yes? No? Okay so we are celebrating also the 75 years of the first observation of synchrotron radiation that was seen in this glass vacuum chamber of the synchrotron here which gave the name to the phenomenon of synchrotron radiation actually. So since then synchrotron radiation evolved quite a lot and there are now 60 centers around the world serving a community of about 50 000 scientists which is practically the largest scientific community in the world and thanks to the extreme flexibility of the high brilliant sources these centers can be considered if you want some scientific centers in continuous evolution. So Sesame among the 60 is the only one in the Middle East and it has been established it was born at the beginning of the millennium under the ages of UNESCO and it is placed 35 kilometers northeast of Amman the capital of Jordan. It takes its structure from the CERN and so it is governed by members and it is helped by observers. In the case of Sesame the members are regional and you see them here east to west Pakistan Iran Turkey Palestine Jordan Cyprus Egypt and Israel while the observers are worldwide when they are not institutions like the European Union and the CERN itself and it it's what was inaugurated so it was established at the beginning of the millennium and it was inaugurated in 2017 in a ceremony that you see attracted the presence of a quite large number of important actors in the scientific world. So there are here are members from the members from the members and plus three directors of CERN in different stages of its evolution the madame Bokova the at the time DG of UNESCO and the commissioner for science of EU and so on and so forth so just to mark the the kind of albedo that this inauguration had at the time. Now where are we now after these many years of construction so the first two beam lines were opened or relatively soon enough after the inauguration that was 2018 IR and XS and in 2020 we succeeded notwithstanding the COVID to open the material science which is a powder diffraction beam line and the proposals are arriving are more or less half of them are become real real real real experiments and while the lion's share goes to the members we in any case attract scientists from many places in the world and you see we are 27 countries placing proposals at at Sesame and as always happens when when you turn it on it works better you have a burst in number of publications after the first light has been channeled through the beam lines so we are now at 52 papers after these few years of operation and the impact factor is let's say reassuring on the quality of the science which is produced at Sesame by the users apart for the three beam lines which are already built and and running there are other three beam lines which are in a which are in the in the pipeline beats is a European project for a beam and for tomography the effort is led by SRF with many partners in Europe and and says me obviously then there is the Helmholtz has a new beam line which has already been completed and it is under commissioning so both will be open to users beginning next year and there is and this is a great point in my opinion the first beam line built by a member the Texas so the Turkish beam line which will be built in Turkey actually so this this is a could become a very great asset for for Sesame to having within the members the capability to build such an instrument and will start construction being constructed in 2023 it has been funded I mentioned the observers the observers have had a fundamental role in the development of Sesame we are extremely grateful to the to the international community because without them it would not be possible to reach the point we are now so around the picture of the famous boat with brought Bessie one to the Middle East to become not Sesame but the injector of Sesame you can see the other some of the other but some very important assets that we received from the observers so the solar power plants which allows us to transform photons into photons the first step and then the guest house a donation from Italy the monochrome a new monochromator for the excess beam line from UK the entire beam line from PSI the material science beam line and the okay this disappeared rearranged so the the picture here is the here you see the part of the Dresden-Rossendorf beam line from SRF so a German beam line in SRF which was transferred and became our excess beam line and so on so it's it's quite a lot what we what we get and it it's indoubtable it's that's for building one of these machine one needs an expertise which is spread out over many countries and this just this picture of one of the gear that gives an example of how much spread is this kind of know-how and you also need luck not only a village of friends but also luck which not same not always happens so in there was a famous incident in 2013 when a unparalleled unprecedented snowstorm hit Jordan and the the roof collapsed so that that was a step back a quite substantial step back in the construction of of of sesame not to mention the fact that 2020 and 2021 we started in 2018 2019 was all right we even have the current from the from the solar plant but 2020 and 2021 have not been the most productive years for a facility which is relying in users coming and utilizing the beam lines this is a moment of resilience for a facility like this I was just arrived and 15 days after my arrival I was locked down in the inside of me so you might at this point ask why did sesame survive with all these odds so we started in 2010 to 2003 we took many years to build the machine because of economical difficulties training and at the end how we did actually survive and the only answer that I give you is that because it was a very good idea so the next steps having reached this point of when in 2023 we will inaugurate two more beam lines so with five beam lines this is a 100 running facilities for users and what are the next steps and what can iupap do in and how we can help iupap and how iupap can help us is we are looking for new members because we need to increase the economical notation of sesame and you cannot go to the members and say we will double the money because this is not simply not going to work so the only way is to get new members in and I think that the iupap can be instrumental in the outreach of the facility and the another thing that we need to do is to take our an active a more active role in the construction of the african light source where sesame has been the first light facility to sign an MOU with the african light source facility in the foundation and we hope that this will bring good fruits in the future and in also in these projects like lamp or in the help of the iupap will be very instrumental in getting there and I must say that a bit out of this might be instead the third line of action which I foresee for the near future which is strengthening the cultural heritage activities because being a the only synchrotron sitting in what is the cradle of history of humanity I think that and having all kinds of tools that can be used for this this is one thing that we should pursue strongly and we actually are doing that so the the number of proposals for cultural heritage are growing we have the support of the INFN the Italian INFN CH net which will put us in a in a larger set of facilities for cultural heritage studies and so at the same time sesame could be also a beacon for iupap this is what's what could happen is that if if iupap needs a place where to put the focus on the activity in the Middle East and and also Africa sesame could could could could possibly help but we might not be the most visible or the most or the largest laboratory in the world but whatever we can do we will and with this I think I can salute you just to a bit of blatant publicity there will be a a physics matters forum at the end of this month celebrating Herman Winick and his achievement his and with many friends with contributed to that part of the history of sesame which I did not see personally but of which we are all enjoying now so if you if you want to connect online or to to to today's I think it would be a very nice moment for for Herman and for and for for the world of physics thank you very much indeed for shedding light on these activities in the Middle East and now it's an honor to to welcome Professor Amadou Wargwe president of the African physical society and he's also chair of the iupap liaison committee in Senegal and full professor at the university university of seek anter dot job of Dakar in Senegal he's a former director of the institute of applied nuclear physics at the university and specializes in the theory of atomic resonances laser spectroscopy and nuclear security which led to being president of the lamb network and vice president of the international committee commissioned for optics as well he's a member of a number of boards and committees including the african laser center the committee on optical science and applications at ictp also the international advisory board on science education at the interacademy platform and various committees at the american physical society he is has been an associate member at ictp for 14 years thank you thank thank you very much eagle for your nice work good afternoon everyone first of all i would like to thank iupap for inviting me to this symposium and also to thank all the organizer it is a great pleasure for me to be here at ictp this is like my home since 1988 i was coming here every year it was just of a covid-19 who stopped my travel to to 3s and i have many friends here i can show joe nimela we work with him for many many years sitting at lamb network with lamb network which is the african laser atomic and molecular and optical science network also at ico international commission for optics the lamb network is one of the international organization of international commission for optics concerning now the project of the african physical society i will start with a little history about the creation of the african physical society it was in 1983 a number of african physicists and mathematicians uh convened to form the society of african physicists and mathematicians the name was sapam it is the precursor of the african physical society i have to say that the sapam the the meeting took place here at ictp so this this is just to show our strong interaction with ictp for many many times and and all this interaction iupap was also behind was sponsoring all this kind all this meeting and uh our first contact i can say my first contact with the president of i of iupap took place here at the office of professor denaro who was the director of the who was the director of the office of external activity of of ictp it was very instrumental to the development of many network in africa including lamb network including african physical society and also of course abdu salam abdu salam was one of the mentor i remember personally he pushed me to to create the the the network the african laser atomic molecular and optical science network because he says that in the context of african country it's not sufficient just to say okay i'm teaching physics i am doing some research he says that we have to put people together we have to push for for network to push for organization of scientific meeting to push for the breaking of isolation between scientists in africa and with other scientists outside the world in in the world not outside outside africa i want to say so like that we participate for the first time in 1999 at the iupap general assembly in atlanta i i remember i was there with professor alote who was the first president of african physical society and also a fellow from from ivory coast it was the first time that african scientists are participating to the to the iupap event and in 2002 also we participate at iupap general assembly in berlin and i remember one of the of a plenary talk was done by edmund zingu from south africa who talked about the lab network the african laser atomic molecular and optical science network this is very very very important because it was the occasion for me to to to meet also professor if etrof who was i think at this time the president of iupap and later on we meet at the international commission for optic meeting in finland it was the isotopical meeting and one of the most important things that iupap have done this time because when talking with etrof i say the problem that we have in africa there is no no no review scientific review in the library it is difficult to have access to to american physical society review and to others so in negotiate with american physical society and they start to distribute in in the form of cd rom in many african university all the volume of american physical society so this is very important for us especially in my university for for the training of of our student and also in 2005 we we participate at the general assembly of iupap in capetown and also to the azure meeting in japan in singapore in in brazil and and now here in in in italy so for the starting point of african physical society like society it was in 2007 at itemba lab it is the lab where uh where uh ruzani is working and with the support thank you of of itemba lab of and of course of iupap the sapam the sapam decide to become the african physical society and it was it was very important because there was a numerous of african physicists scientists gathering in a in a in south africa in cap in capetown at itemba lab so uh the african physical society had its official launching ceremony on january 12 2010 in dakar i was the organizer of of this meeting and professor alote was designated as the first president of the african physical society and we are not alone there was a lamb network because it was the lamb nine meeting there was the abasi meeting it is the edward bushett abdu salam institute which was created here in trieste which was the kind of junction between african scientists and african diaspora especially in the u.s and one of the member of the abasi is sitting here say kazi meeting and he was also a member of the african physical society because african physical society is the joint organization of all the five region of africa plus the six african region which is the diaspora in the u.s in europe all the african diaspora all all over the world and after this launching ceremony we we took we held our first general assembly meeting and as i say francis alote become a president now presently african physical society is incorporated in gana so it is an official organization incorporated in gana and i i have to understand that the african physical society have to serve as an important resource to all african physicists and help leverage their communication and collaboration so this is some some of the activity and i have to say that we was among the organizer of the international year of light it was the african physical society the european physical society i think other countries saudi arabia and so and ictp here we we we have a meeting and after african physical society european physical society and i think saudi arabia and other country and russia they bring the beat to unesco and after unesco bring it to to to the united nation and one of the instrumental was johnnie mela for this thing and african physical society and there was a time where african physical society seemed to be to be i cannot say sleeping but not not very active so this is why in 2018 with sandro scandalo with ali myself we we think to to to organize a workshop for the revival of african physical society in kigali and it coincide with the opening of the east african fundamental research institute in kigali which is the ictp institute so this was extremely important because we bring all many people from from africa for for this for this meeting and as a follow-up of this 2018 international meeting in kigali due to the covid 19 pandemic we we we cannot realize in person meeting even if we got a a grant from from alibaba for the organization of this meeting even up to now we have these grants i hope so so i a a fes organize an online zoom international conference in collaboration with ictp and after that there was a the meeting give opportunity to a new initiative the african strategy for fundamental and applied physics to make his first public presentation so in 2021 we organize also the online meeting biophysics in africa with a strong scientific participation of south african institute of physics and many other scientific organization in africa also in november 21 african physical society with the support of aiupa and ictp together with african light source this is also one of our main partner sitting at the african physical society executive board we are at the same time also in the african light source board myself secazi meetinga and and many others people so this was also an online meeting and in november 22 african physical society will organize a joint conference with a support also of aiupa and ictp it will be in november so i have to say that since since the creation of a SAPAM in uh in 1983 there was many many activities which have been done by african physical society together with african laser atomic molecular network with edouard bouchette ictp institute with nsbp it is the national society of black physicists in uh in in the united states with african laser center i have even to say that we organize a big meeting in africa with a european physical society and american physical society in in 1998 for for development of spectroscopy in africa and one of the former president of aiupa came to dakar for this meeting it was a canady read so the african physical society bring also this is important is institutional support to the initiative of african strategy for fundamental and applied physics it is as fab and to and to the initiative of international year for basic science for sustainable development i remember afbs was one of the first organization to support these uh these initiatives so our our vision for the african physical society which is contained in our strategic plan which is it is too long i am not going to to show all the things but to see one thing is that it is the enhancement of the timely development in africa of physics education research training and both national national and transnational collaboration for the benefit of africa and the global physics community for that the african physical society will be a instrument to support the organization of physical society in different african country what what we what we are waiting from aiupa as as i said we we we want to really continue to to have strong interaction with aiupa and i hope that this year for the international year of basic science for sustainable development we are going to organize with with at least the african physical society i make a proposal already to to aiupa the statue of physics of basic science in africa and after that we'll see what kind of action we can undertake for the development of of physical science in africa before i end i should just some photograph this is the the launching of the african physical society and we were invited by the president of republic of senegal and this is the the first council of the african physical society you can see here professor alote who passed away in 2017 myself and and here this is a this is a meeting also for the for the launch of african physical society and aiupa this is uh oh i am how to go back just one minute this is the meeting for the launching of african optic and photonic society uh together with african physical society and sponsored also by by aiupa and this is the international conference in gana for the international year of light organized by the african physical society in akra gana and this is the kigali meeting with ictp with uh two for the revival of african physical society this is some of the participants from sudan from this is the representative of ictp is is here you can see him ali ali is here this is a the gender gender equity inside african physical society in in our committee we have many many women so this is the group photo for the conference in in 2020 and another one in 2021 acknowledgement i want to to thank abu salam international center aiupa for their constant support and scientific collaboration and also i have to thank the african government who support an university authority who support all the different activity of land network and african physical society many thanks to our partner and sponsors thank you so much all of the panelists are um waiting with um gaping ears to hear the questions so we have a few minutes um there we go i'm sorry if i missed it by some chance but i'm wondering what are the opportunities for students in uh those projects and initiatives societies that you presented today um how can physics students get involved more how how can they participate more in the international collaboration this is especially important for us in the international association of physics students iaps which was mentioned yesterday and today a few times uh since we are the organization representing all physics students in the world and we're especially trying to expand more in african middle east where we have very fewer members and member societies thank you i think this is an extremely important point so can i ask um first of all andrea could you talk about the middle east a little and then i'll ask the other panelists um press press them up let's speak about one okay thank you yes so uh we are extremely open at sesame to uh we are having training quite often in this in this period since finally people can move out of the houses but uh much work has still to be done at the university level because one thing is coming for one week or two weeks to get the training in accelerators or or some beam lines another and which i am aiming at and it's still not yet possible is to have phd students or master students to come and do the thesis there and this requires a more user which take a bit more time to be developed but i'm i mean it is a it is something which all all facilities of this kind are aiming at you know we had we had received some funding from eu for from ec for for a for a horizon project for two phd students ships in cyprus on sorry computer science for for data reduction and analysis and hope that it will be possible to get more but the attitude is obviously extremely open to this kind of activities good it looks like we're looking for funding partners um uh amadou yeah okay thank you no i have to say that for what concerning african physical society in in all our meeting we used to uh to go to school to university to give conference and i remember during the international year of flight in 2015 in gana the regional conference that we organized there there was a big exhibition where we bring a student and and children from school to visit this exhibition it was about application of solar energy so it and it was a very very big success and and we know that really the the student the scholar in africa they really want to have interaction with a society like ours and i i think that it is our duty to go to them and to bring them to work with us thank you i think this is an important meeting of minds marielle hello okay thank you for your question and i think that it will be we will be very happy to welcome some students from here from italy from the ictp to attend the estec lecturing session this is a possible and for me i think it's very important for students from developed country to come also to do some experience in developing country to discover the reality and to to to to share some experience with the the other colleagues we had this experience from the past i think with professor mikelezema one of during our one of the training sessions some students from university of pavia have attended online this session it's all very very nice experience so i encourage you to apply for the next 20 sessions will be held in november thank you great um do we have another question yes thank you very much for this interesting session i come from tunisia and i am a member of tunisia and physical society i am the special and we have in our society a section for phd students and younger researchers and i think to to react to the previous question i think that it would be good if we create a network of phd students in association with this the iupap section to to help young researchers phd if they have a question or they are looking for a paper or for mobility short mobility for kind of experience so it could be a good link from this the south to the south to the north this would be excellent the the south north link and i think we can do something about it through each of our organizations um also there is the african physics newsletter um which does um say um who publish who is um working on what and gives experiences of young people from africa who are traveling so it would be great to um to use that as medium for interchange as well you have a right thank you very much um i was very happy to see that uh the creation in the talk of mariel of uh x-ray crystallography laboratory because you never should go to a synchronous one you should don't have already very good experience with x-ray because you will be losing your time and time at the synchronous money so i think it's very important for the student in africa to go first to a x-ray laboratory where they can learn the technique synchronous one can you give you many more possibility but if you have don't have a minimum of knowledge of x-ray crystallography it will not be useful to go to the synchronous great um i heartily applaud that and um i would like to say that from the point of view of the african light source the attitude has been taken to train people first on other on other facilities build expertise pass expertise along among the group all we need now is a synchrotrop any other comments from the panel thank you very much for this comment i'm very happy to hear that from from you this is the goal as i said in during my presentation we aim to develop to contribute to the emergence of a community of x-ray experts who can contribute to the future pan african synchrotron this is a main goal and uh i'm i'm very happy to to hear these comments and i encourage the students our scientists researchers to use this facility because it's not a facility for benin is a regional training platform it's the now a borderless science facility which is our baby our common baby so we need to take our feet and we need to to to use it as we can thank you great we can take one more question oh you'd like to please go ahead first no i i think that uh what uh professor petroce is uh extremely uh important and i i remember we we we start similar experiment in collaboration with ictp in at the ictp affiliated center in senegal in Ghana to bring people students from other parts of africa to train in laser spectroscopy and in in dakar laboratory we have trained a student from mali for phd from from from moritania from from liberia and also in gana they train students from from togo from from other parts from from senegal and there was such kind of interaction even with tunisia the we send a student with the money of alarm network to to tunisia to zora laboratory to train in a in a in molecular instrumentation and mobilization so i think this is extremely important this exchange of student exchange of scientists to go in different places and to be trained um so maya if i may add to that certainly itemba labs um in south africa um has many opportunities for students please contact um ruzani i'd like to wrap up this session um really thank you so much to all the participants um we had discussions beforehand about how to meet the brief of this particular session um we hope to have some live music um i um hope to bring in a wonderful dj with some music but we have the music of the spheres the alignment of the stars the um the people and um the science working together at sesame and um the great confluence of physicists in the african physical society thank you very much hello everybody just a quick announcement um there will be the shuttle picking everybody up at 5 30 as well as the session is over and uh it will take all of you straight to piazza unitar cafe delis pecchi where the reception will take place um another thing someone left a bag last night in the bus uh the eight o'clock bus uh if anyone wants to have it i have it okay the the bus goes to the cafe directly yeah otherwise there is if if it goes to piazza albert and then there is not enough time to reception uh 6 30 yeah also uh we should take a photo at some point i don't know when is the best moment to do so now uh or maybe at the end of the session can can can this work at the end of the session just everybody goes out and we take a picture at the end of the session okay good i'm ready to start so first thank you very much to the organizer to for this uh organizing this panel on early career researcher uh i'm angela braco from university of milano and nfn and i have the pleasure to have four panelists ruicitra from eaps university of working working working um mattia ostinato from the young mind of eps university of barcelona then we have valentina mariani university of perugia italia and then ice was ice wasy gosher that is from the both national center for basic science from india so we have a good representation of different young people and so we have decided to go to the presentation of this for panelists uh already in connection to the first question that i prepare for them which is the following um so they in the next few minutes each of them will answer to this question and before that they will introduce themselves and and and tell us what they are very interested in what they are doing okay so the question that is starting this section this round table is about their interest of course in research and education and if they have already specific plan in order to pursue or implement their interest in the best possible way and then we are also curious to know what are the motivation and or some specific factor that occurred during their short career because fortunately they are very young uh and during their study and what are these uh motivation that are driving their future plans okay so at this point we are ready to start with the first one that is Rui yes please come here that is also of course the chair of the international association this is for you thank you for the physics student okay hello everyone um as just introduced i'm Rui the president of the international association of physics students um so a bit about me i am from the uk i did a degree in physics and then i am now doing a master's degree in international relations because i want to go into science policy so um for this panel i'll speak on behalf of physics students around the world um so a bit of an introduction into eye ups in case you don't know about us um we are an international NGO representing physics students around the world um you can see um we have um 24 national committees um which you can see in blue then we have 22 local committees in um in green and are in orange are our individual members and if you don't see your country in blue or green then um do come speak to me um we're very very interested in expanding and all it takes is just a few contacts um and usually students are very keen to start local and national committees so we've um increased in size by 20 percent this year already and we now represent um our 90 000 members in over 70 countries um so here's a bit of what we do um we run many events so our flagship events are planks which is the physics league across numerous countries per kickass students um and that's our competition where bachelor's and master's students um compete in physics um physics competitions um so first the winners of the national preliminaries go on to the international finals um and the most recent one was in munich um this year we also have the international conference of physics students which is also held in a different country each year last year was hosted by um our national committee in danmark this year by our national committee in mexico and then next year in um the philippines so um yeah these are our main flagship events we also have um lots of outreach activities so um the iapp school day for example is when our local and national committees go to schools around the world um and they do physics outreach on a chosen topic so this coming year is so this november will be physics for sustainable development in line with the iybs st the international year of basic sciences for sustainable development um you can see a few other things we do this is not extensive at all there are many things going on um we also have a journal we give grants and many other events so yeah thanks for listening about iapps um we've recently become an affiliated commission of iupap as you probably know by now um and yeah it's really exciting to be here so thank you the next one if you yeah okay please yes okay so i'm valentina mariani and thank you for the invitation it's an honor to be here uh i am actually a junior researcher at the university of peruda and i belong to a nfn uh as well you know the the two goes in some way in parallel in italy uh i work actually in particle physics and i am a member of the cms collaboration at cern um also for this reason let's say my scientific interest is shared between different topics uh we in peruja are very um commitment in the director development and in particular we are responsible of part of the construction of the new cms tracker for the high luminosity lhc so basically the um the phase that will start uh lhc from 2029 hon that hopefully should bring us to a new physics frontier for the particle physics field i'm also involved in the tracker reconstruction and in particular now i'm the convener of the cms tracking group uh that's a big responsibility and it's very exciting especially now that rand is just started for from few days and of course uh i also work on data analysis and in particular i'm focused my interest in the flavor physics and qcd at least for the moment so um to to connect the to the first question i um what i decided to to bring here is the how i decided to become a particle physics in particular uh actually during my um high school the school organized the trip at cern it was i think 2009 2010 and i got totally in love with the laboratory with environment with the science that they were doing there and in that occasion i decided that i would be a particle physics and i feel very very like that i really managed to um also for this reason for the very important impact that all this stuff had to me i think that for our uh role the all the dissemination and outreach that we can do and should do can really have a huge impact in society not only on students but of course this is an important part but also in society in general we i mean these last two here and a half now uh showed us how science is important for our real life and how dangerous could be not believing in science so also sharing the the critical thinking science in general is really i think at least uh important and could have an impact and then of course uh i'm involving in uh a lot of outreach activities we organize masterclass for students seminar etc and if i only convince one person so far to become a physics for me of course it's a success uh then just to complete my my career so far in 2020 i won the l'oreal for an esco um grant for woman science that is an award uh that um encourage and um enforce the role of women in science uh and provide a grant for young female researchers this program is regional i mean specific for each country as far as i know is active is active in many many countries in the world and the these grants are available um every year so i encourage also the connected people maybe there are some uh young researchers to apply because it's really a huge a huge occasion of course it's a pity that in 2020 we still need this kind of grant to encourage the role the role of women science we discussed largely yesterday in in the session and even today i hope that from tomorrow there won't be no no need more to to do this kind of grant but still it's a it's a huge occasion for for us and that's all very bright now is the of matias so first of all thanks to the organizer for inviting me this symposium has been amazing so far so a bit about me i am matias tinato i am from naples in italy and i have studied all my career there and then i moved to barcelona for a phd where i'm now where i'm now working on outer equilibrium dynamics in driven colloidal systems so to talk a bit about my interest this one where the scientific ones but there are also the how can i say the association is interest that i have so to talk on the scientific ones basically the moment that define my career have been my erasmus in paris and the subsequent spring school in complex system here at ictp actually where i first discovered the beauty of statistical mechanics and complex systems and which is still driving me to do my research right now and regarding the association is part i am currently the chair of the young minds program of the european physical societies which i will talk to you in the next slide so the young minds program is a program instituted in 2010 by the european physical society to create a platform for young student and researchers to get involved in their community and create a european network so up to now the network is in constant growth and we have like more than 60 sections in 36 countries and the idea is to foster the diffusion of physics in the broad public and bring together more and more young researchers in the european mediterranean area the approach that we follow on that is basically by supporting with grants the self-organized activities of local groups working with their universities and local communities doing activities that range from outreach or professional development or networking so that was that was it so thanks for your attention and thank you good afternoon everyone my name is Aishore Chagosh and i'm from india so i'm a researcher at s n bose national center for basic sciences i work in theoretical condensed metaphysics basically integrating derivative and machine learning methods to this complement the conventional way of doing condensed metaphysics and actually the recent advent in this computational process and techniques and the open public data that has really transformed how you look at material science problems and so this is the approach that i particularly work on so my scientific interests are in general to predict novel material discovery using a combined machine learning or past principal techniques and i also try to predict properties and materials of choice and currently i'm also working on developing ml based force field for a class of materials so i became interested in this machine learning thing as a hobby during my bachelors i didn't even know that i will be doing condensed metaphysics at that point of time i was reading a magazine on some sort where they were talking about ai cards and all that and i got really interested a letter fortunately i actually got the chance to work on a project which brought together this machine learning and a materials problem and so you can say that this old appreciation was rekindled and i think this field of artificial intelligence in itself is developing by lips and bounds and we can actually take those technologies from them to put out put it to our field and to solve problems in our field and so in the next few years it will be very important to strengthen the bridge between these two fields and i wish to be a part of this journey besides that i also tutor school students in physics i try to inspect them to love physics because somehow you see there is a general trend of being scared of science in my country because maybe the curriculum is like that and from our institute you also visit the improvised areas the slums in our locality and i try to actually teach them any subject as such so just introduce them to the system of education because they are not so fortunate as us and this is what i do i has also awarded this inspired scholarship after my high school that provides monetary support technical support for the students and he actually helped very much in my participation of natural science studies thank you now after this presentation we go to some other questions so the first one that each of you will answer is about barrier so do you expect to find barrier that prevented you to carry out what you have in mind both in relation to your research your career sorry so do you think that this possible barrier are limited related to limitation in education or in the research system and are you willing to collaborate with more experienced person to try to clearly identify this barrier and and this limitation and try to find a good solution for them and do you think that the organization as a you can really help you in this so now you have this you have the you have seen already the question so we can start in order do you want to start of course okay um so on a personal level i have already faced barriers just um from the female perspective i think that's just a universal issue and there are just in our society different biases that everyone has um but i would prefer not to talk about that now if you want to hear more just feel free to ask me um in the questions after um instead i'd like to talk about um on behalf of IOPS um we so obviously we have a lot of students from a lot of different countries who like to share their experiences whenever we meet um another thing i didn't mention that we do is advocacy work so this is um this is trying to improve conditions the lives of students around the world and as part of that we've launched a physics for peace campaign for example a mental health program and now we newly have a new program where lots of students have come together who want to improve the conditions for for young researchers around the world so this is something that's really new and this is why this is really relevant to this panel as well so there are big plans for that group um currently what we have um is just preliminary research so looking at the existing research into what conditions um different students are facing in different countries so um there are many many um surveys out there and what's interesting is that the surveys tend to have the same results so different surveys um so i probably don't even need to cite which ones i'm looking at if you look at any nature survey um they tend to have similar statistics um so for example one survey that um looked at uh six thousand six thousand students from all the different continents um we're saying that uh a third of over a third of students um so phd researchers of that level um find uh they've had to seek out mental health support for example um and this is a really really big um big number so anyway um so taking a step back um we've been looking at what the problems are um and it all comes down to toxic research environments so um before i get into that i just want to make clear it's not that every single student is facing bad research environments there are some people who have great research environments but um this is just a trend that we found and i was speaking with the fellow panelists earlier and it seems to be quite universal as well um so toxic research environments there are many things that many of you are probably already aware of things like um young people not getting credit for the work they're doing or being overworked underpaid um that's that's a universal problem um there are things like the mental health problems that we're facing especially during covid um that made it really clear to everyone um that mental health really needs to be focused on in um in universities and in um in phd programs for example so um one thing about being underpaid um so in some countries phd students are not paid very much at all and one problem with that is that if there isn't good mental health support then they can't afford to get their own mental health support either and then that contributes to them not being able to do a good job um i'm just throwing lots of issues at you but um i think this gives a bit of an idea there's also um the publish or perish mentality that's come up um so lots of issues like this but anyway so taking a step back again um we've we've faced we can see that there are lots of problems that need to be solved and um we've got a very keen group of students that are looking to solve this and i know that many of you many of your organizations would be interested in also um working to solve these problems because um if you haven't faced these issues before i'm sure you know people who have so um so yeah this is definitely a place where organizations such as iupap can help um we're thinking so we have some big ideas um so to start with potentially um just making guides for students to help them choose uh choose the right phd program the right supervisors so that would be a first step but then we'd go bigger we'd um we'd look at uh guidelines that universities should have in place to make sure that phd students are supported um maybe even introducing some kind of accreditation for universities to show that they're um they're living up to these guidelines so these are just ideas in place and um yeah do do come talk to me and people from my apps if you can see any way that we can work together as organizations thank you so actually my answer to the question okay so first of all thanks Ruhi for highlighting many of what are the structural barriers actually in the research environment because i i thought that i was also wanted to talk a bit about that because i see from my perspective as a phd student that there are some structural barriers that are inherent inherent to how the research work and academia is globally works sometimes so basically for example during the phd the phd is a delicate time and of course this depends on the phd programs and not all the phd programs in the world work like that but what usually happens in the majority of phd programs is that a student was just fresh out of his master so just with these competencies and no real research work what he or she has to do is basically to learn the job of being a researcher and while learning this job which is a complicated one even if extremely satisfying they also have to be extremely good enough to start already to be in the game of the publisher period so basically they have to build the solid basis of publication because otherwise it's will be almost impossible to go on doing postdocs or going for tenure tracks and of course this is also even harder if they come from underrepresented minorities or different groups so basically they have simultaneously to learn a new job and be so good at that that they can already excel and be pushed into a tenure track of course this is extremely difficult and when this is done without the support of an institution or with a poor which I'm not referring here to supervisor because of course this depends from case to case but I think that given the delicate the fact that this moment is delicate in the development of a scientist universities and institutions should have more hand into that and when that doesn't happen of course the productivity of the student decreases mental health issues are right behind the corner if not already in front of you and of course Ruhi was saying this just becomes a feedback loop of negativity because you're not productive your mental health goes down you're even less productive and of course there's not another important topic is that when we are talking mental health is that mental health program are not present in many universities so if a student if a ph students and in my personal opinion and they am one of them I've many PhD students I know including me I've experienced mental health issues the only thing that you have to go is finding professional help but this takes money and universities don't offer free programs and in general this is a kind of money that can go easily to up to a fifth of your salary which is a huge chunk and not many people can can afford that so to answer the second part of the of the question if I think that big the organization such as you Bob can help with that I think that the answer is definitely yes because these are collective problems and we need a collective effort from the community to tackle them otherwise individual level will not be able to do that much so thank you so um as a researcher when I read barriers I have several IGI mine I don't know the order but at least the first one I think is the the huge problem of finding funding for for continuing our our career I mean our job is maybe for natural reason characterized by non-permanent position for a long time this can be positive on one side because we are continuously contaminated from many cultural many many places we are also moving from a country to another is something that enrich our not only as individual being but also in our job but then on the other side you have your private life I mean we are growing up and we are in some way we also need to to sit up somewhere and we have family we are we may have children and of course finding the the balance between all the stuff all these pieces and put everything together and be stable also from a mental point of view is not easy and I think for many people that I directly also know this is one of the main reason why they totally leave the the academia life so that's the first the first point I think and another one that you very touch but I think it's important is the the gender gap that we already discussed yesterday and many other many other sessions I don't think at least for me and for what I saw so far that at some point I will see a diet that we are doing due to the fact that I am a female of course I don't think that now society is at this level but of course there is a gap and and we see every day in every meeting that we that we organize and maybe even here there is not a balance half and half I think this is due to society maybe how society have also and working together with more experienced people that is the the second part of the question would help of course and you also the let's say again dissemination but also giving the example of being young researcher and being you see half and half now in 2022 it's important because then in some way you provide the the good example here the the risk of course is what I think yesterday was called like the the positive discrimination so I get the job and someone could think okay you got the job just because you are female I think this is kind of a substructure discrimination that is still going on and that we should of course totally totally eliminate the last the last point yes such such organization as UPAP are I think fundamental for this kind of of possible barriers and only the fact that we are here discussing this kind of problem I think it's it's very very important yeah so speaking about the roadblocks I would think that this problem that we face is like it's a cross-national boundaries it's not like it's general all about the academic environment but I would like to talk about more about the things that I face or maybe my peers in India and Indian subcontinent space so the problems can be on two fields so it can be on the professional domain or in the personal domain and even in that we can make two segregations on the what the problems we can we feel now and some problems we foresee in the future so for now one big problem that we face is the stipend that you're paid for doing the research so it's not regular it comes depending on the funding agency of course it will come to you in four to five months and sometimes maybe take a year and the entire money will come after a year but you don't get on every month and the amount we get is not that much so I can say it's like three seventy euros per month but it will come to you after four or five months and then there is also the matter of funding in research so the funding will sometimes goes to the more attractive fields and we are bound by the those to do research on those fields in particular and then we'll also try to look for collaborations for in my case since I'm doing work in machine learning it would be great to have collaboration with computer scientists but then this is limited by some sort of bureaucratic red tips for sometimes and later one chief problem we also face is these getting our PhD degrees so it in some institutes or universities can take up to one to one and a half year to get your PhD degree that is from submission of the thesis to your defense and in between we can meet opportunities maybe we get selected to a program but we can actually join there because they don't have the degree in our hand then we also have to think about this job scarcity that we have in our country because the spending on education is less than 0.6 percent of the total GDP of India and these numbers are actually going down every year and we actually see that our seniors they are doing postdoc all around the world for age of 30 or 40 and they cannot come back to India because all the interlevel jobs they close their doors for us at the age of 30 or 40 and in the personal scale I think this will be a more general thing we obviously have to work maybe 12 hours plus so there's cases of stress and isolation is uncone it's not very uncone and then in India at least there is pressure from parents to settle down but then you don't know your future and so that is an issue obviously talking about this stress and isolation I'd like to make an example of a friend of mine so he is to he is to live just across the hall in my hostel and when I used to go to sleep at 2am he was not there in his room he was working in the lab and when I used to wake up at 9 he has come to his room had slept and I can go back to lab so this is routine even since now and for the second part of the question is working with experienced person will obviously help us in this regard because they have faced this before in some way or other so we like to know how they steer the tide because after all we have with IPAP the sharpest mind and mentors from different socio-political and economic conditions and their insights will be very crucial also it will be helpful to forge collaborations in terms of ideas and opportunities and technologies and it will also be helpful to have exchange programs particularly for the developing countries I think we had some discussion about this in the first session so adapting third world countries by some IPAP members that will be very helpful and finally I also talked about that IPAP with its international representation can actually help in societal outreach about the basic sciences in our countries because and then we can convince public that the basic science is important and that can also help in the policy making by the federation thank you and okay so I think this is a question for which I know the answer but I think it's very important to make it in any case so do you think that the basic science is the drive for innovation and the benefit of our life and and if the curiosity driven basic science is not only an intellectual challenge but really need to important breakthrough that improve the quality of your life so for this question I think we ask Karui and and Mattia to answer and then the other two will answer to the next one this is an easy one but I think it's important that you remind us that you believe in this principle yes so of course the answer is yes it was so inspiring to be at the IYBSSD opening ceremony this just reinforces that so much and Michelle's growth very brilliantly as well clearly as we've already seen in this conference people have already mentioned how we wouldn't have the world wide web without research into basic science because that was of course created for for the spread of data and information for physicists we wouldn't have GPS working so accurately without general relativity the list goes on forever and this is why I chose physics why probably many of you chose physics because physics and basic sciences have such a great impact on everything else because everything else is built on it so yeah this this might be the solution to the funding problem because often governments financing programs financing research and things like that don't make that connection between between the economic benefits you can get from just funding these the the base research the basic sciences and the research is really clear that there is such a strong link between the two so if we just if we just make that much louder that might help getting more funding for basic sciences so okay so this question has two answers the short one which is yes and a little bit more elaborated one which I will try to to do without repeating many of the things that really say but yes I think that of course basic science is vital to to the advancement in general or our technology of our culture as well I mean I think on a personal level that there are no real barrier in the human thought I mean the human thought is more interconnected than we think and in general whenever some scientist puts itself driven by curiosity to study some new phenomena something in something somewhere is bound to be created many times is technology but we can also think a lot of times how science has also influenced philosophy and literature which has also things that then go back to science because science is also influenced by the human nature of the people performing it but if we want to talk technology I also think that is very important because something important is that it is not only that new science creates new technology but also that the fact that people are working on science also mean that they will need new technology what I mean is that technology is not always the direct outcome of science but for example as Professor Phillips was telling yesterday there are many times in which there is a scientific problem and then to do us and then to solve this scientific problem new techniques and new technology have to be developed and this of course creates advancement in technology and then advancement in a number of things that we can do for example as Professor Phillips was telling yesterday they were developing they were working on making a more accurate atomic clock and in the end they had some problem and to solve this problem as a by-product quote unquote they developed techniques to to cool atoms and they paved the way for lesser cooling so yes it is extremely important that basic science is funded because a lot of benefits for all the societies in the world can come from that and only those thank you very much okay thank you very much Mathias so this is the last question for the other two panelists in five minutes in last event and then we have 15 minutes of a question from the audience so do you think that education and training system need to interact more effectively with in the with industrial system to get a better opportunity in jobs also in this section okay so even in this case the short question is yes absolutely and the longer one is that I think this is a critical point at least to me for the Italian education pattern because as far as I know as far as I saw also from my from my study at university a direct link into the industrial system is totally missing and for all the people that want to study physics at better level at the master level but then don't want to continue their career in the academia what I see happened that they leave the academia and they are totally lost in the world because they don't know which is the linking between our study and the and the industrial system because at least for us there for us I mean in Italy there are no programs some I don't know I think in internship or something like that that can give you the let's say the idea on how your study can really translate in the industrial system oh I mean we are not really a job in our hand but in some way we have to to transport what we study in a real job and that's not easy at all if no one in some way teaches us how how to do and I think that this is really something in which we are we have an important luck at this point and this is maybe one of the most important points on we on what we need to work a lot on yeah so I wanted to talk about some figures in terms of employability conditions in India because I mean I made it some specific but anyway so this will highlight the need for industrial employment so 800 so this is data from 2018 but I do not think these things have changed since then much so early 800 to 1000 PhD in physics are given up and maybe 50 of them will be employed at top IITs at the technical institutes and the top institutes and because old ones are saturated and another 150 maybe will go to other research institutes so 600 percent will be live will be left without any reasonable employment every year their option is to go to the private or state institutes but I didn't consider the PhDs themselves produce so yeah it's high time for industries to step up but at least there aren't enough development in that sector to absorb this large number of highly specifically trained personnel and there is also a lack of awareness at both ends in this matter and maybe I do not know how you are engineers are preferred more than people trained in basic science but this collaboration are beneficial in many fold ways so it will be help in enhancement of research and innovation through joint research projects which can deliver innovative commercial products and there's also a mismatch of skills needed in industry that has been an impeding problem in employability in our field and so such academia industry linkage for getting transferable skills will be very much important thank you thank you very much okay so now we have roughly 15 minutes we left for was plenty of time for question to this younger bright panelist one of the common threads running from the comments these four bright people made it concerns the welfare of the students right that was something common that all of you touched upon and it has been my experience that it partly happens because the so-called faculty members today have also gone through the same process and there are two types one type they say well you also should go through the process because this is part of you know process of learning the other types say that well maybe we can do something about it and it has been my experience that most of the time the problem starts off as a really trivial issue you know somebody is bothered by something it's a new environment as you many of you said stressful environment challenging environment so if a supervisor can talk to the talk to the student or scholar and listen to them and as I think Chandralika mentioned yesterday have empathy I think that makes a huge huge difference I'm speaking from personal experience it happened in the case of students and it also happened in the case of technical personnel you know like we have engineers who are working with in physics program and so on so just that connect and I believe that probably maybe not all the problems but at least 80 90 percent of the problems can be addressed if only there was the right kind of dialogue and right kind of understanding shown so it's not a such a massive problem if only we could educate the people sitting on this side of the aisle can I make an answer because I think okay so thank you for your question but I think that is something that you said something extremely important the last part of the intervention was many of these problems will be solved if we could educate the people on the other side and this is also something that I think is a bit lacking I mean in the end looking at the other side many people reach the faculty position and they are putting the position of being PI or being professors but the university and the institution usually don't the don't provide to them some courses to give them some skills that might be lacking because we are all different people with different paths and the fact that I am a good enough researcher to have a permanent position does not mean automatically that even if I want to be a good leader or a good teacher I'm out of I automatically am and in that institution should provide instruments to bridge this gap so that people that are put in the position of being leader can have the instrument to be more empathic better leader because leadership and teaching are not some things that you are bored with or something that you can acquire and you usually acquire yeah yeah and yeah it's great that we have the space to talk about it so yeah thanks for organizing this and also a comment in response to this I'm not completely sure that it would solve that much of the problem because the problem is actually very structural so imagine if if they are educated but they still don't have have enough have the right kind of interactions with the students and so if they this is what happens often where students don't feel like they have the right guidance they haven't set the right goals from the start with the supervisors so it feels so they feel very lost and that contributes to the mental health problems so a lot of those things are very easy to fix as well but it's worth looking into the big picture not just not just trying to put the problem on the supervisors and educate them and that will fix everything because that probably wouldn't but but it would help and I do I do agree with you that these kind of things are actually quite easy to solve but we've just got to look at the structural problem. This is a question there please. Can maybe we answer or not all of us? Answering what Valentina was saying about the difficulty to find out how it works in the industry I think very often this is the role of learned society to organize with workshops where the young students can go and interact with people from the industry this is organized also in the leadership meetings from the young minds where you have a panel of people who moved into the industry and can tell what their own experience is and I think it's a very important way of transferring information. Now gaining leadership ability is something which is a bit different because I think you have it in your gene or maybe not you can learn quite a little bit as true but I think the important things that's the first move has to be done by the students and also I agree that maybe the university should have some specific programs where they try to train and give them an opportunity for students to learn about technology transfer and about intellectual properties because these are kind of things which comes on only much later in your in your profession. Anyway if you want to understand a little bit something maybe tomorrow I make a detachment about the panel on life outside the academia so maybe you can be ready with some questions and the two panelists who are people who start who organize the startups and will discuss about life outside the university will give you some hints. Okay see you tomorrow. Okay this is a good advertise for tomorrow so thank you very much. Now there is you want to answer there are two questions you want to I think it's okay? Yeah just to say that I totally agree with the comment and I mean the university teach us how to be a good maybe good researcher but that's it and we are totally on the same line exactly. This kind of program should be spread much more than they are actually but all the organization that's in this kind of yes or you but that does are extremely important for us. Yeah so this and then please. Yeah so I just wanted to find out because for the previous questions about whether communication with students around how they're doing what doing their PhD would help or help significantly because I'm from the NILS4 Institute and with the NILS4 method of teaching so all professors has to go through a minor teaching course as well as all instructors. We also have sort of a surveys after each course that you have to take any project that you do where you survey or rate your professors and there's huge dependency from the dean so if you do really well you get money as a professor if you do medium you don't get it you're just on to next year you can continue teaching but if you do poorly and you're rated poorly by students you have to talk to the dean and in some cases when professors continuously are rated poorly they get fired or they lose their teaching position continue research and a new person is hired for that course however even with all of this in place many PhD students at the NILS4 Institute are still suffering they're still overworked and still have mental health issues that they have to pay for which luckily a payment system in Copenhagen or NILS4 Institute is unionized so we do actually get paid but it's still 200 euros an hour for a psychologist in Copenhagen so just simply talking to your students and your PhD students is not the solution because we do that at KU we do that at NILS4 Institute and it doesn't really do much okay so there is a question for this lady and then you're okay thank you thank you for this very interesting panel I just have a comment about the barrier for developing countries developing country students early career or PhD there is a barrier of the mobility and nowadays visa is more and more difficult to obtain and particularly when you don't have any permanent position so just if we can have this recommendation from Ayupap to to push and to find solution yeah this is a good point now that is there and then in fact this I would just like to ask question from Eshwarya because we both belong from India and Pakistan when we're just collaborating the academia with the industry the problem is that most of the industrialists they ever never be ready to share anything with the academia and even the academies are not trained that how to access to the industry so for such type of situation what do you think how we can solve this problem because it's a bit big problem to link up the academia with the industry I guess that is a question unless you want to comment I mean obviously you can wait for tomorrow I mean I don't have any concrete answer for that but I think the it should come from higher ups so the government policy making should be such that these are some some sort of enforced so that we have to do this I don't know I mean I have to think about it okay but there is another question and then thank you very much finally I'm not the one bringing the microphone but I may ask a question so this is something I was thinking about since like a while and that kid didn't come up with a solution so obviously the mental health issues for PhD students that is an absolutely important issue but we're talking also about a career so when people go into industry they will also find very very toxic environments in industry do you have an idea or it's a very difficult question if there's no solution I do not mind at all do you have any idea how we can teach or prepare PhD students or master students who go into industry at some point to understand and learn about those environments and how to deal with them because otherwise it will be a continuous effort to always prevent your mental health from being destroyed and devastated thank you okay there are answers maybe join PhD with industry can also help already because you are doing something already together at the level of PhD please you want to somebody wants to add other comment there are two more questions then we have to close because we have to take a picture we have a long list of issues that we have to take note and the UPOP can help I would like just to say my personal experience after my PhD I moved to Berkeley for many years and I discover a very positive system the professor there both theoretically experimentally were taking care of the student after the PhD which means we were finding positions for them at bell lab IBM Sanford order university when I came back to France I decided to apply the same system I told my students if you actually I'm accepting you for a cheated at the condition after your teachers I send you for two year at bell lab IBM Stanford we got connection there and all of them accepted when they came back I told them I guarantee you that you will have a position all of them got position either university or senior or in the industry why in the industry because they like it very much to have people who have been for two years IBM for Bell that was very easy to find a place in a good industry in France okay there is a question from Monica and then I think sorry there is really uh there is another okay please just you know I mean I just want to comment on this because I think it's we heard that it's toxic to work in the in the industry I don't think it is like this you know industry is not the there are no devils there I mean as you mentioned you learn a lot of things and in research laboratories a lot of companies now have developed their own R&D and they employ students coming there and I can tell you a lot of the students who have been with us at IBM or at bell lab and so on they leave this company enthusiastically saying how much we learn about it and they go back into the academia also they might go back to another place to work professionally in the industry or getting a professorship somewhere so I think it's a good it's a good thing and I fully support what you said okay now we have to I want to close with I know okay Boris and Monica and then we close with Boris okay yeah yeah she has been I just wanted to say I mean this toxicity of the environment that has come across in many of the interventions I hope that this is not the only experience that you've had because you know personally I you know I was only in always in a very non-toxic environment so I hope that that you share I mean this opinion yes totally I mean I think I am very very lucky from this point of view because my my environment at least what I see so far not only in the academia but also in my collaboration that is a huge one is totally a positive example that I that I see and I want to share yes of course thank you thank you for the discussion and thank you for seeing me here so I wanted to actually share our experience in Australia what we have done so the Australian Research Council came up with this huge research that what is going on in Forte Industrial Revolution and how to make the PhD more valuable in the information economy of Australia so they came up first with understanding that each student need to have this skill of navigating their own career because the information technology is changing all the jobs so fast that you may start really studying something but at the end that job may not exist anymore so you need to continuously upgrade your skills so what we have done and I am a director of one of these courses is that for example in Sweden we have a course which is graduate graduate certificate in research and innovation management what we do at the beginning of the students coming in we give them a core unit which is a project management but what we teach them is managing their research but also giving them a realistic idea that only five percent of you will stay in academia so think about if you're not staying in academia what you should do and about mental health we find that 60 percent of the students who drop out is because of mental health so we specifically in the project management we teach them risk management and the highest risk is your mental health the burnout the resilience you need to figure out what are the things that you need to do to not get to that point and then we we did another research on actually how we make the PhD student attractive for the industry in Australia and we are still working through that and that's a multifaceted problem one problem is the students themselves don't know what they are getting out of PhD they think they have a very narrow information about one field but what they actually learning is the thinking process and that is the most important part then the industries don't know exactly that what is the value of PhD students because they think they are expensive so we came up with this connection between the industry and academia we send the PhD student as part of this graduate certificate to go six months working in industry on a project and then sorry so I can talk to you about this I think I want to have the final remark from Boris and I sorry but we are so it's an unusual question from my side smart for a very nice person and the answers gave a very smart answers and I'm really impressed and very wide spectrum of problems was tackled but I have question to all of you sometimes you will have families you will marry how and how your families will interfere your career how you will combine this small children family and all this issue with your research can you career this is a difficult answer because I fast myself into that I know that it is a difficult answer so I think we don't have time to answer it's very interesting during coffee you tell you but I think it's a good point we have to thank you very much sorry sorry yeah maybe our photographer before before you leave I just want to I realized that my message before was not so clear there was a reception offered by the no no but yeah the reads but originally the regional administration had invited all the speakers but since we are not so many we decided that this is for everyone so that's why some of you didn't know about this but now you know that everybody is invited to this reception second thing as Monika is reminding the photo who's taking the photo are you doing that yeah the group photo oh well we exchanged so yes but I don't see him anymore yeah and where and where do we do this where do we do this just out alone because I see her she's connected but I'm not muted because if we can make the connection before and maybe you have to unmute I send you uh okay try to speak now you hear me yes yes perfect okay thank you very much hi for now my name is Lucila they are Tangeles and I'm going to be the chairman of the session okay unfortunately people are still in coffee break so give us please five more minutes well it's still seven minutes to go on my cat my clock anyway yes my name is Jens and I'm so lucky I got a hat from Anais from Pakistan what do you think I got a new hat can you hear us? Pakistani delegate who is here I'm carrying it proudly oh she cannot see it oh no yes talk to the camera but you can hear us right can you talk again yes I can hear you but I can't see who was speaking it's going to come it's going to come the technician is this is another room you know last week I was in Germany to give a talk and my husband tested positive for COVID so I had to isolate anyway so I gave my talk from the hotel just when I thought I was going to speak live it's like no and then I came home and I got COVID so there you go do you feel okay but I think I'm recovered I'll be here soon I think I am but I can go in Russia now I see your hat okay now I see you can oh yeah yes they're very lovely very lovely okay he's very proud Jens couldn't come it's true but I've been traveling almost non-stop since the first of April so it's also nice to be home everybody wants you I'm trying to make up for the two years that I've couldn't travel but then left went away oh you are our magician she has she has to she has to share the screen that's it okay so when the talk you want to start the talk you just have to share your slides I don't have to do anything do you want me to try now why not yeah why not okay let me try now can I get to full screen though yes there okay yes do you have any audio or video in your presentation I have a video but if it doesn't work it won't matter want to make it work when you share there is a button you have to press it share a sound and optimize for video there's no sound so it's it's a it's always work so it's probably gonna be fine all right it's just the eye surgery okay my guardian angel before we start well it's a wonderful day here in Trieste so as you can imagine everybody's outside but I think yeah it's just a nice day really yes I've been skiing and in principle you have one hour but you take all the time you need okay or you just cut me off again I was only given a half hour last time but I suppose we went 45 minutes but luckily the first speaker had COVID and couldn't even come so they so the two of us took the whole time I am an extremely biased chairman so I will never cut you out of it so well they couldn't cut me off because I was online in the beginning of the day as we say so right okay the time you need I know I know I know but I didn't know that we were yes unfortunately unfortunately can we try to sit down rapidly because our speaker is already here I think we can start good afternoon everybody my name is Lucilla de Arcangeles from University of Campania in Naples Italy and I serve IUPUP as chair of the C3 Commission in Statistical Physics it is a great pleasure and honor today to welcome Donna Strickland Donna Strickland is a Canadian physicist one of the four women in history receiving the Nobel Prize in physics she was first undergraduate at the McMaster University then she moved to Rochester University for a graduate school where she started the collaboration with Gerard Muru on the topic that they developed and that was leading to the Nobel Prize basically the so-called shield pulse amplification method able to produce ultra short high power intensity laser pulses this work that was started during the graduates to school and was then developed awarded them the Nobel Prize in 2018 together with Artur Ashting for the invention of optical tweezers she in her career she moved from the National Research Council to the Lawrence Livermore National Lab and then she is now in the University of Waterloo in Canada as school professor among the large number of recognition I mentioned that is member of the U.S. National Academy of Science and she's fellow of the Royal Society so please welcome Donna Strickland today that will talk on from non-linear optics to high intensity laser physics please thank you very much for that nice introduction sorry that I cannot be there to help celebrate a hundred years of IUPA but I wanted to be part of the program so as was just mentioned I got this work for or I got the Nobel Prize for the work I did as a graduate student and really the question is you know why was I the lucky one I actually just handed out a big Nobel Prize that explained how much luck has to do with success and I said I've known that all along that I was the lucky one I was the only one in Gerard's group at the time trying to make short pulses to increase the intensity everybody else in the group was making short pulses just to look at faster processes so that's why I was the one who was at the right place at the right time to get to do this work so it's a talk about you know the importance and in the name of IUPA the fact that you have to do basic physics to even get to new applied physics but when you get to the new applied physics and the new technology that brings it actually changes the frontier of where the pure physics can keep going and so I've changed my title of my talk over the years that I've been giving it because when we got CPA we changed from non-linear optics to high intensity laser physics but I can't really explain high intensity laser physics without explaining non-linear optics and I can't really explain non-linear optics without understanding linear optics and we went from linear optics to non-linear optics with the invention of the laser and so each step of how we understand how light and matter interacts changed when the technology that came from that understanding also changed how intense the light field was so this I'm just going to walk us through slightly more than a hundred years to understand what I was trying to do and what I ended up doing for my PhD so if you go back more than a hundred years as scientists were still even trying to decide you know is light made up of particles or is light made up of waves now you know the people with the second coming of quantum I think are still trying to decide this but in any case you know in the classical sense it should be one or the other and there was reasons to think both now I could start with a lot of different linear optical interactions I'm choosing this one known as the photoelectric effect for two reasons one it's the thing that Albert Einstein won his Nobel Prize for right he could have won so many Nobel Prizes but this is what was stated for his all his theories but in particular explaining the photoelectric effect now I just spent almost a month in Texas A&M where they have a strong atomic and molecular group and some people they got upset that I gave Albert Einstein too much credit for this so let me just add this person to also Nobel Prize winner Max Planck because Max Planck was the one who figured out that you know the energy of light had to be quantized and so the energy isn't necessarily coming from the height of the waves although the total energy does but that the fundamental energy comes with this photon and it comes with the color and so using that understanding Albert Einstein could explain this photoelectric effect which was the experiment that was done at the end of the 19th century to try to prove that light was a wave right so it should have just had the electrons come off with more energy if you turned up the power of the wave and instead it went with the color and so Albert Einstein showed that it had to be that the energy of the photon greater than the energy the electron was being held to the material than the electron went off with that difference in energy and so this is even though we usually talk about the photoelectric effect with our students to explain the quantum mechanics it's for this talk it's really an example of what I call linear optics the way the light interacts with the material is always one photon sort of interacting with one atom at a time right and if the photon has more energy than what the atoms hold in onto the electron then the electron is released with the difference in energy so I mean I could have picked a different starting point I could have picked absorption and stimulated emission and that was also Einstein in 1917 giving us those linear interactions where one photon interacts with one atom at a time if you increase the height of the wave you're increasing the density of the photons and you would have more photons interact with more atoms but still the interaction would always be the one photon with one atom at a time so that's where we were in trying to understand how light and matter interacted at the beginning of the 20th century it's just sort of the beginning of higher power so and then along comes this woman Maria Gaubert-Mair now she's famous for being the second woman to win a Nobel Prize in physics but that's her work she did in the 1950s when she was at Argonne National Lab and finally actually being paid to be a scientist but when she was a graduate student in Germany she started a whole new field of physics she was the one who really asked the question why do atoms only absorb one photon at a time why can't it absorb two photons at the same time and she went through the semi-classical approach Maxwell's equations were still there just being the classical waves as you can use in the photo electric effect itself but she said I think you know like you know atoms should be able to end up in a higher energy state with the absorption of these two photons so this is from her 1931 paper this is the way most of us think about two photon absorption one photon new plus another photon energy with the new prime and that kicks you up to M and she showed that if you had that then you had to have at least three electronic levels and that she sort of has these dotted lines to this day we still use these arrows for our photons I don't think we use these dotted lines anymore the dotted line makes more sense of course in the difference case you don't have to have the two photons being in phase you could have them out of phase and you would have the subtraction new minus new prime and you would end up here you could also start in the higher energy state and have spontaneous two photon down conversion and the difference version of it so she went through the math and in 1930 published the paper in 1931 and she showed absolutely this should be possible nobody saw it though until 1961 so it was Peter Franken's group at the University of Michigan that was the first group to actually see atoms momentarily absorbed the energy of two photons now what she talked about two photon absorption and leaving the atom in an excited state was also observed later on in 1961 but this is this is the first nonlinear interaction I also caused quite a stir a month ago when I was speaking at a Gordon conference on multi photon physics because I said how I had learned 30 years after working in the field by Pierre Agostini that I always thought nonlinear optics and multi photon physics was the same thing he explained at a conference that was different and so let me just explain the difference because you're not all optics people even what if you're an atomic or molecular physicist and you watch what happens to the atom or molecule then you're doing multi photon physics but if you're an optics person like me and you're watching what happens to the light then you're doing nonlinear optics so to me it was a too subtle of a difference but anyway there we go that's the difference so the first thing seen was actually a nonlinear optical thing and that's where this michigan group these quartz and what they saw was that the quartz atoms momentarily absorbed two red photons and then released the energy not as two red photons but as one photon having twice the energy and it was that signature of that one photon with twice the energy that let us know that two photons had been absorbed simultaneously so I also like to show this picture because it's just one of these cute history things back in the 60s people were having to use film because digital imaging wasn't there yet and all journals had film editors and they photo editors that to clean up all of those speckles that were on the photos from dust and what have you so in order to see this effect it was only about one part in a million to 10 million they really really really saturated the film up here so they could see the little teeny dot down here and the dot was so small they thought people might not see it so they put this arrow here to show it to you now you can see squinting as you may that there is no dot under the arrow and that's because the photo editor assumed that also was just a speck of dust and so it erased the actual data and this is the way it appears still to this day but anyways we trust that the Franklin group of the University of Michigan did indeed see what we now call second harmonic generation so it was first seen 30 years after Maria Goldberg told us that we should see it and so the question is why did it take 30 years I've already told you the answer and the answer is that the laser came along in 1960 so this is again my Nobel lecture so I do want to pay homage to all of the previous Nobel Prize winners in my field fast-off and prokhorov for working together in Russia while towns was working independently from them in the United States they developed the Mazer in the 50s and being for microwave where L stands for light art shallow is one of he won a few years later for laser spectroscopy he's one of the people that helped bring the technology from Mazers which was easier to do than the laser in the 60s but it's really this person Ted Mayman he's the one who was the first one to figure out how to make it work in the optical field it was May 16th 1960 when he first demonstrated the laser at Hughes aircraft so what makes a laser so special and I don't even have my demo one here to show you but of course we know that the light that's lighting all of you up lighting me up here in my dining has photons of every color they go in every direction and most importantly they don't care what each other were doing they're all going in their own direction at their own time whereas if you have a laser beam and I was there and I was using my laser to show you instead of using this pointer on my screen you would see that it's of course a nice tight small beam it would be a single color mine's green not red as in this picture and most importantly though all of the photons care what each other are doing so if one's peeking they're all peeking and therefore if they're one's troughing they're all troughing and this is how the waves then add coherently and become a giant wave so what is why does giant wave help us see nonlinear optics well then in the photon picture if you look at the light so it's now you know the different colors means they each have their own frequency so I like to say they're dancing to their own beat so and not only are they dancing to their own beat they don't care how anybody else is dancing and that's why they can't crowd onto the dance floor so if you're going to see the absorption simultaneous absorption of two photons those two protons have to be in the interaction volume at the same time to be simultaneously absorbed and with regular light you can focus it down to increase the density of photons you can use a lens and focus down the two dimensions but only down to one wavelength okay which is for visible light about a half of micron I've got one micron written there and an atom is diameter 10,000 times smaller than that so the cross-sectional area is quite small in comparison the third dimension is given by the interaction time along with the speed of light I kind of think this is why Maria Govind Meyer chose two photon absorption because that is a resonant process and so it would have the longest time scale and so we'd be most likely to see that's not what we're seeing first and that's because to see two photon absorption you have to have some other measurement that the light is in an absorbed state the nice thing about nonlinear optics the light just comes out so with regular light the chances of seeing two photons in this very small interaction volume just too small to be seen but when the laser came along and Nicholas Bloomberg and one with art shallow for laser spectroscopy but he is considered to be the father of nonlinear optics like Maria Govind Meyer is the mother of multi-photon physics and so I leave him on this picture but now all the photons are dancing to the same beat and they're all actually dancing together and so they actually can crowd onto this dance floor a lot tighter and so when the laser came along we now have that possibility in a 1961 it was one part of a million to 10 million but nevertheless it was the possibility was there to see two photons in this interaction volume at the same time so there we were in the 60s now what has any of this got to do with me and my phd well when I joined Gerard's group he asked me if I would be interested in working on this work that this paper that he showed me from Stephen Harris so Stephen Harris a professor at Stanford University had written this theoretical paper and the idea was it's great that we have this coherent laser radiation in the visible and the infrared but wouldn't it be great if we could get it up into the higher energy photons the extreme ultraviolet possibly even the x-rays and so he came up with a few schemes of not just doing two photons at the same time or even three photons at the same time he was going to use these resonances like Maria Gopin may have done for the two photon absorption but sort of with more of them and the one thing that I hadn't said when I talked about the two photon one is that it could not be in an isotropic homogeneous medium for symmetry reasons but these even order resonances can help if you think about it being a Taylor expansion these these non-linear optical terms are all usually used in a Taylor expansion and the even order can't be there if it's an isotropic homogeneous medium but that resonance will appear in all higher order terms so what he showed was that there was this four photon resonance for this wave line and you could go one more up or one down both of these are five photon in the very same way that Maria Gopin may have showed us two up or one up and one down he then had a six photon resonance where he would then have one down and one up and finally he had this 14 photon resonant and then one up and he gave up on the one down because the point is to get as far into the XUV as you can so Jor gave me this paper and he said see if this is what you want to do for your phd and so I thought it looked like a fun project to do and I came up with a scheme that I would use an eight photon resonance in twice ionized nickel with our neodymium yake laser so I had to do ninth order harmonic generation so that was going to be my phd thesis ninth order harmonic generation in twice ionized nickel so there were two parts to my thesis then one let's try to figure out how to make a cold plasma of twice ionized nickel and I was going to deal with laser produced plasmas one problem with that is laser produced plasmas always make a higher excited state and it trickles down and you don't have a cold plasma you have a hot plasma that means you have actually more density in the higher states rather than in the ground state so that part of my project never actually worked so let's not worry about that one anymore the other half of my phd thesis was I didn't need just two or three photons in the interaction volume I needed nine photons in the interaction volume so I needed not just a laser I needed an intense laser or a laser with a lot of photon density and so that was the successful part of my phd project so let's concentrate on that part all right so when I first joined your arts group I walked into this lab it was this lab that sort of convinced me that it would be fun to work in your arts group because I just thought this beautiful red and green laser just seemed like a Christmas tree and it just seemed like a fun thing to work on I did not actually work on this one but it is an example George group already had very short laser pulses these were 100 femtoseconds so this is 10 times shorter than what my first laser was so we had short pulses but this was a die laser and a die laser is a type of laser that can't be made very energetic which I'll explain it later in my talk right across the lobby from the short pulse laser we had the main laser for the laboratory for laser energetics where I was working at the University of Rochester it is a DOE funded facility for laser fusion laser fusion is an application that actually requires energy nonlinear optics it requires the energy density but laser fusion is one that requires energy in to get energy out so this is a big laser this is a kilojoule laser to give you a scale of it this is like a football size field laser this object right here is the size of a human adult so this is a giant laser that can put out big energy so we had short pulse lasers and we had big energy lasers we couldn't put them together and why couldn't we put them together well in between these two lasers was actually another laser called the glass development laser it was basically one arm of that big giant omega laser and this is where they would try things out and so they actually did attempt to put amplify short pulses in this big laser chain and what they found was here like typically there would be running eight nanoseconds and so they'd be up here at the kilojoule this is such energy saturation of the way lasers work so let's ignore that but after you get past that you'll see it's this straight line it actually is limited by the peak power and not by the energy which was surprising because up until then people thought it would have been the energy that stopped the process and so the question was then why was it this peak power and not the energy so again you could have sort of a kilojoule in a nanosecond where you could have a joule in a picosecond but you couldn't get that kilojoule out if you tried to amplify a picosecond pulse so why not well nonlinear optics happened inside the laser and they weren't really expecting that because there's still there's been so much study about nonlinear optics at this point so the glass laser is a homogeneous isotropic medium so the first nonlinear nonlinearity is a third order one and so the index of refraction is no longer just to do with the material it actually ends up having to be with the square of the electric field to vote or the intensity so what does self-focusing mean? Self-focusing means that the index refraction which gives the speed of light through a material is no longer the same if you have a Gaussian beam profile because right on axis the intensity is much higher and it goes towards zero intensity and so out here at zero intensity you wouldn't see this term you would only have the if it's glass you would be traveling 1.5 times slower than in vacuum okay but at the peak you actually see this bigger index of refraction and so the center of the beam moves slower so instead of having like the plane wave coming down you all of a sudden then have the peak slowing down and now you've got a curved surface which is the same as if you've gone through a lens and so the beam has actually become smaller now because the beam has become smaller and the intensity is power per unit area you've actually made the center more intense and so it actually happens faster faster faster faster faster faster as you make the beam smaller and smaller now this is not part of my Nobel talk I made this PowerPoint slide and so um this is why it's not don't take too much emphasis it's not real it's just me drawing the PowerPoint but nevertheless for a given power because for a given power and beam size that would tell you what the center intensity is you would come down to a focus at this distance if you turned up the overall power you would focus sooner okay just because the intensity would be that much higher would start happening sooner and it just comes down till eventually you damage the laser now when they saw the rods after they tried to put short pulses in this is not what the damage looked like what the damage looked like is if you can imagine this glass rod being made out of clear gelatin and you put a needle in and pull the needle back out and you would see that whole track of damage that's what we see and I did damage a couple of rods myself so I've seen this long line of damage and so again people had to think I wonder why so it was Loy and Shen that figured this out not only do you have um this Gaussian beam in space but we're talking about now putting a short pulse through so I'm just going to divide this pulse into five time segments so a has the most power b has the same power but it's less and c has even less power and the self focusing distance is power dependent so this a part of the pulse actually focused here the two b parts focus here and the c parts focus here and of course the pulse power isn't changing in chunks and so you would have damage all the way from here back to here and then there would be a second go around coming back this way so they called this the moving focus model of self focusing and so we did figure out why we could not put short pulses down these glass rods because the nonlinear optics happened inside the glass rods and caused this very expensive damage and so basically while the nonlinear optics we were trying to figure it out the laser jocks like me said don't put short pulses down big amplifiers and that's why we needed chirped pulse amplification it's a very simple uh Nobel Prize winning project to explain I think I say that I built a laser hammer right fusion is something that requires a lot of energy but nonlinear optics is more like having a hammer right if you try to drive a nail into a piece of wood and push with all your might it doesn't go but you pick up a hammer and you've got it going in so we wanted a lot of energy and we wanted in a very short pulse we did not want this laser hammer inside the laser amplifier causing that problem so the solution is you start with a short pulse that you want to amplify and then go ahead and stretch it and make it a long pulse bring that peak power down so that you can amplify to the maximum energy without getting too much peak power and then when it's safely outside of the amplifier you go ahead and compress it back to the nice short pulse and so you have all the energy and the short pulse and so you have that photon density you need at the application or the experiment but not in your amplifier and that's the purpose of cpa and that's pretty much the whole description of chirped pulse amplification we could have called it stretched pulse amplification just wouldn't have sounded as good we do use dispersion to stretch the pulse and that means the different colors come out at different times that's the same as the audio chirp of a bird's chirp and so this is why we call it chirped pulse amplification oh and this is yours and my uh no bell picture now and we're having a ball at the ball on uh December 10th 2018 so now it this looks like it's the same laser that i showed you before the die laser but i'm now calling it neodymium yag this was the laser that i was going to try to do the ninth harmonic whistle so it's this part back here it's the infrared laser it lasers around one micron okay this is why you see no beam coming out because our eyes can't see it the camera can't see it this box here is a 1980s version of what the franking group did in michigan only now the intensity of this laser is sufficient to do 10 percent conversion so 10 of this two watts of infrared light is turning into 200 millawatts of green to drive this die laser but that meant most of the two watts hits this green turning mirror but the infrared goes right on through and it just went into a beam dump okay and so it wasn't being used and so that was going to be the laser beam that i used for my project it was about 150 picoseconds long uh and not quite two watts of average power 100 megahertz so that's you can also see though there is no room for me here so this picture was taken in 1984 it's for the cover of the laboratory for laser energetics they usually put grad students on their quarterly reviews i know that it's 1984 because both ends of the fiber are still in this room the fiber that you see here is my pulse stretcher um and but because there's no room in this lab once we had the light going through the fiber we strung the fiber through the air ducts and brought it down into another lab right across the entire laboratory for laser energetics where i built the rest of the system so this fiber had to do three things one take the beam to another lab but it didn't need to be 1.4 kilometers for that um it actually corning just an hour south of rochester donated to us two and a half kilometers of fiber for this project i unfortunately broke the fiber because both ends weren't showing and i had to respool it and unfortunately as murphy's law goes i broke it almost in the middle and we had no way to splice it together back in the day so i just used 1.4 kilometers and so what did i need the 1.4 kilometers for first the pulse was short at 150 pico but not as short as i wanted and so as i'll explain i needed to create more color and i use non-linear optics for that um and then the other part is the once we had all the colors i used dispersion to stretch the pulse all right so first it's for a transform theory that tells us we need a lot of color again had i had my a laser pointer with me here and i showed you that it was single color typically when you start talking about lasers you talk about it being single color but short pulse lasers actually have a lot of colors and the shorter the pulse you want the more colors you need now we have something in our lasers called a mode locker a mode locker does the same thing as a symphony orchestra conductor when you go to hear a symphony orchestra and they're all warming up they don't sound good they're all being like the light that's lighting me up here they're all just listening to their own notes and they're all playing when they want to and not when everybody else is playing and so it sounds like noise but when the conductor brings the baton down and says go now then all the notes play together beautifully and they make beautiful music so this is the same our mode locker tells all the colors of the laser go now now if you go away from that point though the colors all have different frequencies or wavelengths and as you travel away then you'll see that these peaks and troughs come apart from each other and those as many peaks as there are troughs and this is what brings it down the broader the spectrum you have the quicker this happens so this is Fourier transform theory the more frequency bandwidth you have the shorter the pulse the black is the addition of all of these colors and you can see that what i'm showing here is what's known as a Fourier transform limited pulse this is as short as you can have for the bandwidth and a Fourier transform limited pulse is one where the crests are an equidistant same distance apart so it looks like it's a single wavelength but it can't be a single wavelength and be a short pulse but it's a single wavelength under the envelope so ideally this is what we want this is as short as we can get for the bandwidth so what we're going to do we start with 150 picoseconds and we're going to put it into this fiber now we don't have self focusing like we had in the laser because of fiber guides and it will keep it plain wave but we still have a pulse in time which means we still have this intensity dependent um phase phone now if you watched at the very beginning you saw that I got up and that's because I was looking for my slinky which is also not here I usually use it for a demo and spilt my water and um almost had my computer on the ground but anyway um so I don't have my slinky to show you this demo but I saw either use the math or explain it so what does this mean we if if you think about having each of those phase fronts which is usually what I show with the slinky each link of the slinky and they're traveling as a pulse left to right again the peak of the pulse is intense and the front and the back of the pulse is not so the front and the back of the pulse moves along exactly the speed in glass which is one point five times slower than in in vacuum but the center one actually is moving slower and so if you can imagine me pulling that phase front and saying no you'd go slower you would find that the phase fronts then get pulled apart at the front and squeezed together at the back and that's how we make red colors at the front and blue colors at the back and we actually generate more spectrum through this nonlinear process called self phase modulation now unfortunately it doesn't make it a very nice uh what we call frequency chirp it starts at frequency omega not where it started it makes it go red it goes back to omega not it goes blue and it goes back to omega not I just call this a wonky chirp okay it's not really the technical term for it but that's what it is and it's very hard to compress that all right this is what it would look like here you have this frequency it gets red it goes back to the normal frequency it gets blue and it goes back and this is the math what is frequency the frequency is the time derivative of the phase the phase is omega t minus kz k is this omega n over c so typically there's no time in this one and so when you take the time derivative you usually just get frequency omega not but now n is time dependent through the intensity and that's why you end up with the derivative of this Gaussian pulse okay so we have this and we can create these colors but we have to be able to compress them in a good way so the other part of what the fiber is going to do is dispersion so let's talk about group velocity dispersion now when I was talking about the self-focusing I divided into five time segments this one has the spectrum divided into three spectral chunks the red travels faster this is the fact that the index of refraction of the material is different red is less resonant than the blue and so it really just doesn't care but the atoms are there and it goes through quickly and the blue travels slower and so if you started with the short pulse and didn't have nonlinear optics happening you would find that you would have this nice linear chirp where you would have red at the beginning then green and then blue this nice linear chirp we knew how to compress back in the day still know how to compress this one is an easy one to compress so this is what we would like to have so in 1984 our group like every other ultrafast group was at the ultrafast conference and also the conference on laser and electro optics they were one week apart and what everybody was talking about in 1984 was fiber optic pulse compression of neodymium yag lasers this paper in particular showed that if you wanted to compress the pulse really well well you would actually have a longer fiber than you would think and that would give you not quite a linear chirp but at least not the S chirp and so they had much better compressed pulses and the idea was you would start with this pulse duration which has its Fourier transform limited spectrum like this self-phase modulation creates more and more spectrum when you have more and more spectrum you actually have the dispersion causing the pulse to come apart in time as the pulse comes apart in time the peak power drops and the non-linearity drops but the point they showed was that if you went far enough and made enough bandwidth and you allowed it to keep dispersing then you would be making the red out of the front it would be created it would be pulled to the front anyway the blue was pulled to the back and the way it was made you ended up with this nice linear chirp it was at this conference that really I think the light bulb went off this is how we're going to do chirp pulse amplification so this was the beginning this is that I came home from this conference and got to work on chirp pulse amplification because we realized all we needed to do was put the amplifier after the fiber and then the compressor after that all right so let me just explain laser amplification and why was the dye laser not a good amplifier even though it could make sure pulses but the glass is good so these I do like to say I'm an optical physicist not an atomic and molecular physicist so the only thing that has personality in my talk are the photons so these are atoms these are atoms sitting there a laser needs to have their atoms get excited by some other source for the needy meag laser it's a UV flash lamp and you you excite them up they trickle down they end up in this state here and that's the very same wavelength as the light that's going to be amplified so now the photon comes it sees an atom in an excited state with the very same frequency and it says great I'll take your energy and we'll walk hand in hand this is the stimulated emission that elbert einstein calculated for us in 1917 those two photons then meet two more atoms they take the energy they're walking hand in hand those four find four more and they become eight so this is the way all lasers begin with one noise photon the problem is in this exponential gain region you will see that most of the energy is left behind and so it's not very efficient this is one of the reasons that we have a cavity to send the beam back and forth and back and forth in the laser and so that eventually we get to the point where we're at what's known as the saturation flux all lasers have this this is when the lasers finally like a snow plow and going through and just taking the energy die lasers have a very small one this is because they have actually have a lot of gain they do not want to have their energy stored there they want to let that go as quickly as possible and so they end up acting more like a light bulb if you make it too big glass on the other hand says hey I'll hang on to this energy until a photon comes along and so it has this very good stored energy so it has one of the largest energy flux saturation energy fluxes of five joules per square centimeter this is why the glass laser though has to get so big a laser starts with a very tiny beam because it's going to start with just one photon it has to get up to the saturation energy flux you then make the beam bigger you go into an amplifier with that same saturation energy flux pull out the energy make the beam bigger so that it's once again brought back to the saturation energy flux goes through the amplifier in each stage the beam must get bigger to get more energy because it's always going to be the same energy per unit area at the end okay so the glass needs that has five joules per square centimeter so that tells you what the energy per unit area is it's the photon density that decides if it's going to be non-linear or not and so that determines how long the pulse has to be to keep the photon density down below that level for glass you want to keep it at one nanosecond so I really needed more than the two and a half kilometers donated the 1.4 kilometers had us up to about 350 picoseconds this is why I did go ahead and burn a couple of rods because I wasn't quite at the pulse length I needed we had to keep it just slightly below the saturation energy flux anyways nowadays people go ahead and stretch to the full nanosecond and that's the only thing left then is to compress them as I said when you had to compress linearly chirped pulses Tracy had figured this out back in 1969 we used something called gradings these are like prisms where we've all seen the light bend through prisms and the different colors bend different amounts gradings do it even stronger and so that's why we usually use gradings if you watch remember the red is out ahead of the blue but the red bends more than the green which bends more than the blue by using two parallel gradings then all the rays come off parallel to each other again but the blue has traveled now the same distance as the red here and so they're all back together again and this is why we have a short pulse now it would be a line in space so we actually have the gradings half that distance apart we put a mirror here to send them back so you get back a round dot and a linearly chirped pulse will be compressed so it was a Thursday night when my friend and colleague Steve Williamson came and brought his street camera I had no way to measure whether my 10 hertz amplified pulses were short or not and he had just got this new stu camera for his work and so we worked together that night this with an edelon to show what the calibration of it was and showed that indeed what we saw was two pika seconds at the most that was actually four pixels unlimited by the street camera but we weren't expecting it to be any different than 1.5 pika seconds so this was the night that we uh I knew it worked and it was a great night and so Patrick Main joined the group and together we added two more amplifiers so that we had what we called the tabletop terrawatt so we had the jewel in a pika second and then I was finally ready to do my phd there were a few reasons why I ended up I never did figure out how to make twice ionized nickel I'll also tell you that the French group in my final year of my phd saw the 33rd harmonic and so why even try for the night so there was a number of reasons why I wasn't going to do harmonic generation now for my thesis Ceylon Chan had come down from University of Le Val in Quebec he wanted to be the first person to use this new trip pulse amplifier and he wanted to study multi-photon ionization and he helped convince your art to let me do that for my phd so the question was was it going to be this sort of multi-photon physics idea where just like I talked in the uh and show with me a gopher mayor to get out of this well we were going to need something like 11 photons and so it would go to the 11th order in power we did not see that the alternative and the one that most of the people see now is the tunneling regime okay I would say that what our results showed wasn't even that we had so powerful uh light and the wavelength was long and so actually the um physics that was going on was not this perturbative effect right this non-linear optics where we give the kinetic energy to the electron to get it out rather we're actually using the electric field to change the potential energy of the well and we knocked it over so much that the electron was free to leave and our results showed that we actually just had classical over the barrier um ionization and so this was sort of the ushering in then of this new way of having light and matter interact and with that oh okay before I get to the machinery I'm going to show you the machining of the eye but uh this is a picture that I've gotten from Gerard it's changed sort of over the years but it shows how we've changed the intensity of light since the laser came along in 1960 this cue switching and mode locking were the two ways to make the pulses shorter this was the region I told you that we could have short pulses or energy but not together CPA came along in 1985 it took 10 years before we actually had one of those kilojoule lasers doing CPA and what took so long first it took several years for Gerard to prevent anyone to attempt this on these very expensive lasers but also the sticking point was really the grading the gradings um could not handle right the lasers could do five joules per square centimeter and the gradings I had could only do 50 millijoules per square centimeter and so Livermore actually took five years to figure out how to make gradings that could actually handle one joule per square centimeter and also then be a meter in size and still have perfect world gradings and so that was the technology that had to be fixed in order to go up and make a petawatt so that took 10 years now Gerard's pictures used to be more vertical and we should be up here where we'd be above 10 to the 29 watts per square centimeter now what's so great about 10 to the 29 watts per square centimeter what's vacuum vacuum is matter and anti-matter and so if you take the rest mass in electron and the rest mass of the positron and the distance between them known as the Compton wavelength if you ask what is that force between them or what's the electric field between them that's the equivalent force that you would have on these charges at 10 to the 29 watts per square centimeter so we think that if we get above that we can just sign our light in a vacuum and that will come matter we aren't there yet and I point out now these are the results that have come along since COVID this is blue because it's not a measured intensity yet but this is the most powerful lasers in Europe Eli at 10 petawatts Korea as they've now actually measured with four petawatts a focused intensity of 10 to the 23 but you can see that we were at 10 to the 21 this is Rards laser back here so we are rolling over so I do point out to everybody yes that's certainly if the students in the room it's time for a new Nobel Prize winning idea to kick us on up but let me take you back down to this region here because what CPA allowed was a different way for light and matter to interact we didn't have to have this linear absorption anymore which is how most laser machining works if you see these beautiful videos of blue light lasers cutting steel it's still using a one photon process of just absorption and then causing thermal energy to actually just evaporate the material away if you're going to do absorption of course you're going to start at the surface and cut down in but what if you wanted to cut glass where the laser beam goes right through the glass so it doesn't absorb well now just at the focal point not where the beam is big but just at the focal region you have the laser hammer and so only at the focal spot are you knocking the electrons right off their atoms and so this is why we can cut glass and we don't have to be at the surface we can cut with the surface we focus there but we can also focus inside the glass so I'm going to show you this video of eye surgery if you're squeamish not watching it's not the laser part that's hard to watch so this is docking so you have to hold the eye still unfortunately you do have to be awake that's why I wouldn't have the surgery you're going to see the laser is going to come in now and it's going to raster scan to kilohertz laser it's going to take 17 seconds to go back and forth it looks like it's damaging the outer surface of the cornea which is where your nerves are and this is why a plot is cut so that you don't have the surgery on the outside where it would be painful so this is the part that's hard to watch if you're squeamish I've learned to watch it now but it was hard at the beginning um the surgeon is going to come in with I don't know tweezers or something this is why I would never have this surgery I'd be freaking out but anyway he's going to show you that um it is a nice cut and that it's not it's not on the surface that the cut went inside and there we go so this is how we can now use these lasers to cut things and that's the walk through my thesis and that's what I did to land myself beside the king on December 10th 2018 thank you very much thank you thank you Donna for this inspiring talk especially for young students so maybe we can go and we have some questions okay hi Sunayuki I can't hear you I'm just I think they have to unmute you you cannot hear me I can hear you but I can't hear Sunayuki he was trying to ask a question but it's not working okay here you go okay hi how's it going Donna thank you very much for the uh the excellent talk it's always a pleasure to uh to hear your talk um maybe I could kick off so you showed application of non-linear optics high-intensity lasers and medicine um do you see any sort of applications killer applications of non-linear optics and you know um problems or challenges that we're facing for example climate change well this is what I'm hoping to still get a network this is what I'm busy trying to write a grant right now to have photonics people work with environmental sensing people um I don't know yet if there's a non-linear sensing that would help figure something out my guess is that probably is but also it's it's amazing how many places that it happened I had a lot of students last week at a chemistry conference talk about using non-linear 3d printing now and so quite why that was different than linear printing but presumably you can make much smaller scale things because you now are just where the focus intensity is small which can be smaller than the wavelength so um you know whether that makes a different type of sensor I don't know or whether we look for a lot of fiber optic sensors could could be looking for a change in the um self phase modulation or something like that but we have to see uh it's to try to bring together as many people as we can just to come up with new ideas as to how to use optics to help us with things like environment that's all thanks any more question yes over there please don't know how this laser helped the icf problem in plasma fusion um yeah okay so I don't really study fusion so let me um and originally when livermore said they were going to do it they thought it was going to actually ignite the fusion I think they've backed away from that but again I I don't know enough about plasma fusion to understand all the instabilities and mostly it's an instability problem um so now if most of the panel what lasers that are with the fusion lasers are really there as um a diagnostic more than helping the fusion process the way I understand it thank you there is another question yes hello hi dana how are you this is secazi oh excellent talk I was just wondering when you are a graduate student working on this problem that you have any inkling that it would be as revolutionary as it turned out to be um yeah you should have asked secazi that last question okay uh did I know we knew that it was going to be really big you know um I remember the very first talk I had to give and at that point we had a gigawatt right a millijoule and a picosecond and jarard we had to look up the word patawak because he said this is the way we're going to make a patawak so we knew it was going to be big we didn't even know what the word patawak was yet um but I don't know that I thought it would be as big as it turned out to be because I think I always thought it would it would reside in these great big laser lobs which would be big but it was because peter molten personally I think it's because peter molten was developing titanium dope sapphire at the same time we were doing the cpa a titanium titanium dope sapphire is still the broadest bandwidth laser which means it makes the shortest pulse and so if you have 10 times and it was actually almost 100 times shorter pulse coming out you don't need that huge energy to get the same peak power and this is when the laser scale became small enough that people could have them in just university labs and that's really when the tie sapphire cpa came along it just exploded um and I you know obviously you can't envision that when you don't know that somebody is coming up with a whole new laser material for you so yeah it was hard to see that it was going to be this big but we we thought the big fusion lasers would use it and get to petawatts please can you just another question thanks for the wonderful talk in one of your slides you showed you know the the amplification and also the energy and one place I spotted it said one pev energy so how far do you think are we from accelerating particles to say pev energies because this is one of the challenges right accelerators we are not so so real what is your sense of how soon we'll see laser accelerators well I mean you know all because of what you say by seeing them I mean people are studying laser acceleration so in a way they're seeing it I think they're up to eight gev at this point which is obviously miles away from your pev so obviously the the dream or the the advantage of the laser acceleration over the standard is just the scale in that we can have a thousand times more acceleration but if you realize that it's because we're focusing tight to make this intensity then the length of focus is very small and so there is a technological challenge of lining up you know your petawatts laser beams and having them focus over and over and over again so I think there are technological challenges still there to get towards pev I think more in line with maybe doing a laser hospital scale acceleration I think is more within reach and that I would hope to see it in my lifetime pev I don't know there is another question online so we have a question from the zoom comments which says greetings from Nairobi Kenya Kenya thank you for the lighting presentation presentation for the benefits of young students how does it feel when you make the breakthrough during your phd work yes I was I mean you know the fact that I still know it's a thursday night tells you how big that was for me and we had a party on the friday I remember that the electronics engineer that had helped keep this laser going we did this project on a shoestring once we saw the work in that 1984 conference we knew we had to work fast it still took a year but Gerard you know got his old laser from his phd back in france and had it shipped to rochester you know so we could have that for free corning donated the fiber and so on and so but that old laser did not want to work very much and I remember the friday was Marcel's birthday and so I got him a birthday cake and Gerard got the champagne but no it was a big moment for me I knew I knew it was a big deal and that I had made it work and it was very exciting thank you Donna maybe I ask a question as you know Ayupa gives a lot of attention to the role of the women in physics and you are one of the rare cases of women who really made it to the top so I would like to ask you what is your personal experience for about being a woman in in a world that at that time I suppose was made the mostly of male male students and colleagues no I guess I think I'm you know I'm a very fortunate person in so many ways in life and it never bothered me to be the only woman in a room and so and the men that I worked with were wonderful to work with they never put me down I never had any of these issues that so many women have experienced and so I was not stopped by being a woman I mean sometimes I was kidded about machining in the skirt and stuff like that but no I actually always had a wonderful experience my supervisors were both wonderful I mean obviously I was the only female in Gerard's group and Gerard knew this was going to be a big deal and he still let me do it so I don't feel like I was ever held back and so I just got to keep moving forward so I've been very fortunate great as it should be so any further question comments so maybe we can thank Donna again for being with us today thank you thank you all I hope you enjoy your meeting thank you very very much thank you our session is there any announcement no okay so we will convene tomorrow again at nine o'clock okay