 Hawaii Together on the ThinkTech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm Ted Kephalos, the Director of Strategic Campaigns for the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii. And I'll be standing in today for our regular host, Dr. Kaylee E. Aquino. Today's topic is Maui's new water bureaucracy. Our guest is Eva Blumenstein, Planning Program Manager at the Maui County Water Department. Eva is here today to help us understand the new designation by the state to oversee the water on West Maui and how this might impact the local residents. Thank you for being with us today, Eva. We look forward to learning a lot about the water issue on Maui. Aloha, thanks for having me. Now, before we get into talking about this, you might going into depth about your background and kind of telling us how long you've worked for the Maui Water Department. Sure. My background is in environmental studies and law. Before I came to the water department, I worked briefly for a law firm that litigated groundwater contamination cases, and specifically pesticide contamination of wells in Maui. Been with the department for 20 years or over 20 years and in this capacity as a planning sheet for the last seven years. Oh, wow, so you're certainly qualified to talk about this. And you mentioned that you work at the Maui County Water Department, but there's a different and separate entity at the state level called the State Commission on Water Resource Management. Some people might know it as Seaworm. Could you kind of tell us what the differences are between those two agencies? A lot of people think that because they deal with water that you guys do a lot of the same things. Right, yeah, so Seaworm is a state agency under the Department of Land and Natural Resources, and they administer and implement the state water code. So they have very broad responsibilities managing water resources throughout the state, as all waters in the state are held in trust for the benefit of our citizens. So all permits related to groundwater development or surface water diversions are administered by Seaworm. We, the Department of Water Supply, we're a county agency. We manage and operate all water systems owned by the county. But we are also tasked by the county charter to protect and manage water resources in the county, especially identifying what water resources are available for current and future use. And we also have to implement the county's land use plans such as the general plan and the community plans. Sure, that's certainly an important job. You know, as we've seen in the news recently, the Seaworm, I believe, has recently designated West Maui as a surface water and groundwater management area. And I think a lot of people are confused about that and really what that means. And so could you kind of help us unpack that and kind of understand what exactly that designation will mean? So designation means that the state takes administrative control over all withdrawals of water in that area, public and private. So that should happen when Seaworm determines that water resources in a specific area are threatened and with the objective to ensure that there's a reasonable beneficial use of the water resources in the public interest. So the state water code defines specific criteria that must be met to designate, such as where the water quality is threatened, water levels in aquifers are declining or water used or projection to be used. It goes beyond 90% of the sustainable yield or the max sustainable rate that can be withdrawn from an aquifer of there, there may be serious disputes or excessive waste occurring, et cetera. So for surface water, the triggers are a bit different. And once an area is designated, each water purveyor, whether that's the municipal or agricultural commercial, have to apply for what use permit for their existing use. And those permits are subject to different conditions that are set forth in the state water code. And then permits for new uses, such as wells that are not yet in production, are considered after the existing uses in that area have been addressed. So each permit application is subject to comments and objections by any person with property interest or actually any interested person. And if there are no objections filed, then the commission, the appointed water commission can proceed to approve or reject that what is permit application. And every word application that the department has filed has been objected to by some party. And often there's a petition for a contested case as well. Oh wow, that's very interesting. You said every case has been contested. Every what is permit application we have filed has been objected to. Oh wow, very interesting. And now just talking about the Seaworm designation and applications, but how does this affect the average resident on Maui? Is there something that we're going to see as the average person that's gonna see a big change because Maui has, West Maui has been designated as this surface water or groundwater management area? Well, I guess it depends on to some extent where you're getting your water from. So in Seaworm's opinion now, the current withdrawals are already exceeding available supply from at least two of these individual aquifers, groundwater systems. So certain uses may have to be reduced or find alternative supply. So when there's a competing needs and if there's insufficient supply, domestic uses or what thought about like general household use is one of the protected classes, so public trust use. So the average person will unlikely have their service interrupted. But we are already asking West Maui customers to conserve water. And I would expect other private providers to do the same and probably issue mandatory conservation measures if there is insufficient supply for existing customers. Absolutely. Now with this new designation, does it make it any more difficult or does it change how we find new sources of water? Obviously, water on Maui in particularly is a very valuable resource. Well, so for the water department, we have already budgeted and begun development of new source in three of the aquifers in West Maui. It takes a long time to get from hydrologic study to site selection, landowner negotiations, engineering report, environmental assessment, state historic preservation, district review, et cetera, et cetera. So designation adds another layer with an additional permit and analysis required. That is that water use permit application and A, what's called a kapaakai analysis. And that goes in front of the commission and it requires that that use can be accommodated from the available resource. So if we are now in Searum's opinion exceeding available supply already, it doesn't seem likely that additional source can be accommodated, right? And the other thing is the length of time for Searum to approve water use permits for all existing uses is problematic because permits for new wells are delayed until the existing wells have been processed and there are at least, I think it's like 80 existing wells in West Maui. So maybe 60 or so of those are production wells that needs to be processed. So I don't think Searum has the sufficient staff to deal with this enormous new management area for all the surface water and ground water in West Maui on top of their responsibility elsewhere. Sure, and those 60 wells, I mean, how long does that typically take for them to process? I mean, in previous years? Well, I mean, it depends, yeah, but we are still waiting for our new water use permit for the EO Water Treatment Facility that was submitted in 2009 for the EO in Napa Eja by the Geographer Secretariat. Wow. So it will be years, I'm sure. Sure, sure, absolutely. You know, and I mentioned earlier that water is such a valuable resource, but I think you had touched on this a little bit in some of your responses, that is there technically enough water on West Maui to meet the needs of residents of the area today? And, you know, what are the areas future needs as we look at kind of the water situation and what can we do to mitigate that? Well, so, yeah, so what department didn't really agree with Searum's determination that current and future water needs exceed supply in several of the aquifer systems? So we know actual, like 2021 groundwater withdrawals is maybe 25% of sustainable yield. Sustainable yield is 34 million gallons a day for the whole aquifer sector, for the whole region. There's definitely potential under reported wells, but I know that all the large purveyors support their water use. So we know, it's important to understand that sustainable yield is not all the available groundwater, yeah, it's a fraction there all. So it's a percentage of total recharge and that depends then on the initial water level or head. So for West Maui, sustainable yield is generally 44% of recharge, meaning that remaining 56% groundwater flowing to Makai is allowed to reach near shore waters, yeah. And then sustainable yield is also set at the lowest end of a calculated range. So for example, for line of popo aquifer, that range is seven to 18 million gallons a day, but then sustainable yield is set at seven at the lowest range. So there is sufficient aquifer yield within the region as a whole that in combination with surface water and retail good water could support plant housing if allocated in a sustainable manner. Sure. And with the county, it seems like that you guys already kind of have a plan for this water development in Maui. Yeah, we do. So, you know, why is the state designation needed if at all, and if you guys, if you could, maybe go into some of the county's plan that you guys have and how it differs from the state. Yeah, so how to allocate water resource to land use is required by the state water code to be determined in the water use and development plan. So that's the plan. The county is required to prepare this plan for all water resources within the county, whether that's they're used by county or private systems. So the plan allocates the most appropriate resource to future demand, considering the county land use plans, the community's priorities, climate change impacts, legal constraints, et cetera. An example would be, so future development, for example, have non-potable irrigation needs. The plan says that should be primarily met with by recycled water, not by potable groundwater. Yeah, the plan may also prescribe that supply for new development should not be served by that underlying aquifer groundwater. For example, you know, you household may not necessarily be served by the groundwater underlying that neighborhood. You live in Honokawai, you're served by our system, the county system, but your water in that case is actually coming from line in Pogo. So water supply for new housing development may have to come from an adjacent watershed or a mix of groundwater, surface water, or recycled water. So when Seaworm made a determination that there isn't sufficient yield in certain aquifers to support plan growth, they actually ignored this fact and the resource distribution that is really a key strategy in the water use plan plan, how to properly allocate water to land uses and the plan growth. And this plan is a guidance document. Yeah, so it doesn't necessarily substitute designation where that is warranted, but the plan should guide the designation decision. Yeah. Absolutely. So the plan was adopted by County Kelsen in February this year. And at that same time, yeah, Seaworm done fast track designation before allowing that plan to be heard by the commission. Sure. You know, and like you said, I mean, the county had a plan for this. What was the thinking behind Seaworm jumping in involved and almost kind of stepping on the county's toes in a sense? You know, why now, why did they pick this recent time to get involved in this issue? Yeah, I don't have a good response to that, but, you know, as I mentioned before, we were definitely, you know, concerned with climate crisis, the changes in rainfall, decreased rainfall and recharge. So I think that there's still, you know, that we still have the tools to address the different challenges we have, which doesn't be different. There's a preferred way of doing that in our plan, yeah. Absolutely. Now, you know, West Maui seems to have a lot of private companies that provide the water. Why are there so many private companies doing that there? And has that been working out in Maui, or should they be looking at a different way of doing things? Yeah, so many of these private water companies, they are like legacy systems from the plantation era. Yeah, there was surface water or streams that were diverted by Pioneer Mill, who was growing sugar and Maui Land and Pine, pineapple. And these former sugar and pineapple lands were, and then over time, been partially developed into what some folks think of as luxury agriculture subdivisions and private companies are retaining those water systems. So that has created long standing conflicts where there's insufficient water provided for Kuliana uses or not sufficient water allowed to remain in the stream for in-stream uses. So in terms of water for households that are served by the private companies, these systems, they're regulated by the Public Utilities Commission and they're subject to the same drinking water standards as the County Safe Drinking Water Act and whatnot. So they have to ensure they provide safe water to their customers. So now in-stream flow standards have been adopted for all but one of the diverted streams, I believe. So the private purveyors, just like the County have to reduce diversions, stream diversions and they have to make sure that they have enough groundwater as backup, especially in droughts when there's not sufficient stream flow and they now really have to implement more aggressive conservation measures that I think that they're used to in the past. Sure, absolutely. Now, a lot of talk has been made on the election side of things this year about housing and building more housing, getting rid of regulations. But does this seaworm designation affect the development of housing in West Maui at all? You know, are we potentially gonna see less development out there, meaning less supply of houses for local residents? Well, so as I mentioned before, in Seaworm's view, current uses are exceeding available supply. So and other operators are at risk because of decreased rainfall and recharge. So it doesn't seem very likely there's a lot of additional source that can be accommodated. So there's certainly a delay for any new source development because all the existing uses would have to be processed first and then on top of that, your permit application may be contested. So say for example, an affordable housing project proposed to develop a new water source to serve a project and if your water used in that permit application is contested, then that whole project may be subject to a contested case hearing. So that could result in appeal and at time and expense to the applicant. I understand there's pretty thin margins for at least affordable housing development. So it adds a barrier and an expense, but for the water department, it's really not known if our new wells that are in the works will be permitted to pump as planned or if we will have a moratorium issuing new meters in West Mali. We don't know. Sure. And I believe you mentioned earlier that all of those permits pretty much are contested. So it sounds like that is definitely gonna be part of the process almost as opposed to just smooth sailing. Now, we talked a little bit about the differences between the Maui Department of Water Supply versus Seaworm, but can you go into a little bit of depth about what you guys favored in terms of a different approach compared to Seaworm? And if so kind of how that would be a better approach at least in your mind and how we can do this better than how Seaworm has kind of currently gone about the process. Sure. Yeah, I don't know that we can, but the water department as well as the Maui County Planning Department and the mayor favored a more collaborative effort, collaborative approach. So we think the Seaworm had the option to invite water users, like all water users to assess the situation and then together devise what measures we should take to ensure that we both develop new source in a sustainable fashion and that we use current supply in a responsible way. So we do have the tools to do that. We have groundwater models and studies. We have the in-stream flow standards adopted as guidance. So this is what we asked Seaworm to do. To try that first, the department did commit to work with all the parties, with the commission staff, with the department of Hawaiian homelands, private purveyors, community representatives, et cetera. So together we would take action on the strategies that were adopted in the Wadi Strong plan already. And then, so literally it's balancing the water budget to not strain an individual aquifer system or stream resource to do that in a collaborative fashion rather than in a regulatory fashion. And at the same, and together continue to invest in recycled water expansion, because that's really a key component to doing this. We need really putting that at the forefront to get recycled water distributed to more plan development, to increase the water efficiency for all, for the private purveyors as well as the county, and also to invest in watershed protection and watershed restoration, because that is ultimately the tool to address climate change and decrease in rainfall and whatnot. So yeah, I mean, we're of course concerned over the same thing, the decrease rainfall and recharge. And there is definitely ways where we, C1 together, we could really incorporate this new continuously evolving climate models and updated recharge numbers. And C1 could really address that by updating their sustainable yield numbers, yeah. So if we understand now that if we can't rely on the adopt the sustainable yield, then what needs to happen is to correct those calculations to address the kind of crisis instead of putting that burden on the water purveyors through this designation process. Certainly, no, and that all makes perfect sense. So, and we're glad that you're on the front lines fighting this. You know, we're really kind of wrapping up here on our show and Eva, I wanted to give you an opportunity to, you know, is there anything that you would like to add something that we maybe haven't talked about yet or, you know, anything specifically that you would like for our viewers to walk away with after watching this interview? Well, we're already designated. So we should have had this talk earlier. So I think all purveyors will struggle to meet demand. And we're gonna have to go through the process as it's codified the state water code. But I think, I mean, there's still opportunity for all the parties to work together on measures to benefit the broader West Maui community, not just looking at, you know, individual interests. Because we all benefit from responsible water use, you know, improve in really upping our conservation effort to invest in water protection restoration and water quality protection. Yeah, because we all ultimately, we all depend on the same resource. So I really hope, you know, folks keep that in mind when we are in the midst of this permit objections and contested case and appeals. Yeah, we ask ourselves, is this good for the public interest? Absolutely. Definitely, definitely. And, you know, getting people involved in the process is a great thing. And just getting more and more people to understand what exactly is happening in government. So Eva, we really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today and for all the important work that you do on Maui regarding our water. You know, of course we wanted to thank the audience for joining us today on another episode of Hawaii Together. I'm Ted Kefalas, standing in for Dr. Keletia Kena. Until next time, Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com. Mahalo.