 Welcome back everybody. Now we're going to wrap up tonight with a talk about spruce disorders. Spruces are one of the most commonly planted trees in North Dakota. It is a great tree. It is so widely adapted. However, it does suffer from many insect pests, diseases, and other types of disorders. So tonight, we've got a leading, if not, I would say the leading tree doctor. If you had a sick tree, this is the person you would want to consult. Joe is the last neck extension for us. I'm quite serious and you will get his email. So just give some more work there, Joe. No, Joe is really, he is the expert when people have a question about how to care for a tree under stress. And we're very fortunate to have Joe here tonight. So let's welcome Joe to the forum. Okay. Well, thanks, Tom. Thank you for that wonderful introduction. It's very humbling. Thank you. All right. We up? Okay. Well, thanks for having me here tonight. I hope I can teach you something about spruce trees and all the disorders they suffer or can suffer here in North Dakota. I do want to point out this presentation is based in part on a recent publication that came out last year. Diagnosing spruce disorders in North Dakota. It was put together by myself and Aaron Bergdahl of the North Dakota Forest Service. Should I hold this up in front of the camera? Okay. There it is. Okay. Very good. I'm going to add a few things to this presentation that aren't in here and there are a few very rare or very uncommon pest disorders that I'm not going to cover tonight. There's more information in this document if you're interested. And another document that I'm going to refer to. So that being said, I have diagnosing spruce disorders, mostly spruce. Some of the examples I'm going to give include pine trees because there are some pests that hit both pine and spruce. So we'll cover that here tonight. Just very briefly, there are a couple that are time sensitive. You will see at certain times of the year, we're going to cover those first. And then there are other disorders that you will see just about any time of the year. So very quickly, we'll get into winter injury. Winter injury is number one. Winter injury is kind of a vague term. There are a lot of things that can happen to trees over the winter. It gets awfully cold here and then it gets awfully warm and cold again in the spring. And you combine those factors and it's really tough on trees. So winter injury, it can show up like this. On this spruce tree, this is a photo from Mike Kangus, North Dakota Forest Service. It can show up like this. This is another photo from Aaron Bergdahl, North Dakota Forest Service. So the symptoms you're going to see are pretty variable. The thing is, they show up now. They show up near the end of winter. Actually this winter hasn't been too bad, so we might not see much of it this year. And sometimes there's a pattern. Obviously these aren't spruce. These are pines in the foreground. And everything above the snowpack was killed. All the needles above the snowpack were killed. All the needles below were protected by the snow were not killed. So this is another type of winter injury. Obviously this example is pines. Same on this pine. Very low to the ground where there was snow. Those needles were fine. Above the snow line, I don't want to say toast. I don't want to get too technical, but they're hurting. In this example, kind of more damage on the right side of those trees than on the left. That was more of a wind issue. Or this one could have been road salt actually. Hard to say based on this location. Big pine trees. This is over in Minnesota. And sometimes there isn't a pattern. Sometimes it's pretty random. In this pine, you might see some needles are dead. Some are alive. Some are dead on the bottoms of the branches. Some on the top. So it's really variable. And about the only thing you can do for winter injury after the fact is sit and wait. Wait it out. In this example, you can see where the red arrows are. That's where new growth is coming out. The buds were not killed. The needles were, but the buds were not. So in that case, where those red arrows are, new growth is coming. So you just wait it out. But you'll also notice where the black arrows are, those buds are not growing. Chances are they did die. So it's really variable. So that's about all you can do after the fact. Before the fact, actually in the fall, watering from about mid-September until freeze up is what you can do to, I don't want to say prevent, but at least minimize winter injury. Having trees go into winter well hydrated is about the best you can do to prevent winter injury. Obviously, if you have little shrubs, you could use some kind of burlap or other type of material to protect them. Keep them out of the wind, keep the winter sun off them. But for a big tree, you can't do that. The other time sensitive pest I want to mention is Yellow-Headed Spruce Softly, YHSS. What you're going to find here, you need to look at this in early to mid-June, and you need to start scouting well in early June. This pest shows up mostly in Central and Western North Dakota. I've really seen it that far east. I've seen it from Devil's Lake down to Richardson. So everything in between. And with this, you might see twisted needles or half-eaten needles. Or in this case, you could see the needles have started to turn pink and have started to actually kind of shrivel up. So that's one of the symptoms of Yellow-Headed Spruce Softly. On the right-hand side, and kind of towards the background, but on the right-hand side of this photo, you see there's one branch that most of the needles are gone. And that's what the insect does. It can either chew just a little bit off the base and kill the needle, or it can eat the whole needle. And this is a Caterpillar Yellow-Headed Spruce Softly. And here's the thing about this insect. Yeah, that head doesn't look yellow. It looks a little more reddish-orange to me. Yeah, sometimes they're like that. However, the interesting thing with this is it's really not a tough Caterpillar. It's pretty sensitive to the chemical, to insecticide control. It's very easily controlled by insecticide if the timing is right. You have to have the insect there. You have to have a window for about four weeks, look for it, find it, scout. You have to be out there and find it. And then, yeah, most insecticides will take care of it. But if you spray too early or you spray too late, that's just a waste of money. So that is Yellow-Headed Spruce Softly. Keep an eye out for that in starting in early June. Okay, oh, and there we go, control. There we go. It's everything I just said right there in two lines. Timing is critical. As we move on, we're going to talk about spruce disorders. You're going to see it any time of the year. And I wanted to add a little caveat. Any time of the year for diagnosis. Okay, you're going to see these a lot, different times of the year, but the treatment is often time-sensitive. There is an insect pest that you can see this every month of the year. It's always there. Treatment for it is really time-sensitive. We'll talk about that. But first, we'll talk about the needle cast diseases. Needle cast diseases are going to show symptoms like this. See, the bottom branches are bare. The interiors of the tree is bare. If you look at an individual branch, you might see something like this, where the most recent year of growth, they're on the right. The last year of growth, the needles look fine and then you go in one year and the needles are still there. You go in to the third year needles, they're mostly gone. Fourth year needles are totally gone. So you need to look at the different age class of needles. The first year should always be the second year, second age class there. They might already be affected. If they're infected, excuse me, that's going to be really tough on the tree. Third year and older, that's going to be tough as well. Spruce trees should hold their needles for three to seven years. Sometimes, and I would say closer to that, seven. Usually I'd say five to seven. But they should hold several years worth of needles. And if they're losing them, that could be a problem. So the lower needles are more affected, as I've said. But here's the question. Very simply, how can you tell the difference between a needle cast disease and just simply the effects of shape? As trees get older and grow bigger, those older needles towards the center of the tree get shaded out. That's why the tree lets them go. How can you tell the difference? You can tell the difference by these fungal fruiting bodies. These are on the needles. These are photos really close up of the needles. And those little dark dots are fungal fruiting bodies. On the right is a fungal disease called rhizosphera. On the left is one called stigmina. And it's really hard to tell the difference. We'll talk about that in a moment. Normal needles, all those stomates. Stomates are the little pores in the needles. They're just nice little lines. They should be white. They should be white. You can see in those bottom photos, some of them are white, but mostly they're black. Those are the fungal fruiting bodies. That's how you tell the difference between needles that just got shaded out because they're not going to have those black fruiting bodies. The way you tell the difference between these two diseases, it's very simple. Stigmina, those fungal fruiting bodies, they're kind of fuzzy edges on them. Obviously, you can see it in this photograph. With a 10-power 10x hand lens, you should be able to see it. It might be a little tough. You might need to get it under a microscope, but if you see those fuzzy edges to those fruiting bodies, that's stigmina. Rhizosphera, they're smooth edges. Over the last few years, it seems like stigmina has kind of kicked out rhizosphera. Rhizosphera used to be the most common of the needle cast diseases, but it seems like stigmina has kind of taken over and replaced it. In terms of control, rhizosphera, it wasn't easy, but it was pretty straightforward. Chemical control two times early in the season. First is when the needles are about half elongated, and the second would be three to four weeks later. As a rough rule of thumb, it's Memorial Day and Fourth of July. Rough rule of thumb. As we move more towards this stigmina, it seems like that four-week, oh, and sorry, let me back up with rhizosphera, that two-time treatment, Memorial Day, Fourth of July, you would need to do that in two consecutive years, and that would work to prevent future infections, or at least minimize. It's really good at that. Stigmina, it's kind of an ongoing battle. Yes, there are those two applications, but it has to be continued throughout the growing season for three or four or five applications, depending on the weather, and several years in a row, more than just those two years. We really need more research on it, but that's our recommendations right now based on our experience. It's a tough disease to treat. We find this mostly where it's wet, I guess in the Devil's Lake area, all over the place. As you get further west, it lessens, it tends to decline. West of 83 or 85, that goes from Bismarck to Minot. 83, I always forget. West of 83, I've seen it a few times. It's not nearly as common as it is east of there. If you're looking for more information about this, our extension publication, F-1680, has more information about the needle cast diseases. Another one you can see just about any time of year is Volsa canker. We used to call it Cytospora canker. We're going to be in this transition mode for about the next 10 years because we've sold Cytospora canker for so long. It's called Volsa now. This one is interesting because it's just individual branches. Whole branches are going to die and the entire branch is going to die in this disease. That's one of the key diagnostics, but not the key diagnostic because a branch can die because of a lot of different things. We just have had too much snow on it, for example, and it broke. Just physical cracking could have been, I don't know, squirrels eat branches sometimes. That's much more so. Here's an example. On the left, that tree, I took that photo in 2005, the branch on the left of the left photo with the green arrow, the color was a little bit off and it caught my eye, so I took that photo and you can see a year later in May 2006, the entire branch is dead. Now, also on that tree on the left, in the red arrow, pointing to a branch that looks really healthy and is really healthy. A year later, totally gone. Well, jeez, what's happened there? The key diagnostic for Volsa canker is these fungal fruiting bodies that you find just under the outer bark, just in the inner bark. That's the key diagnostic. And it's really hard to see sometimes. Basically, treatment is very simple. Remove dead branches and destroy them, burn them, chip them, preferably burn. And keep the trees properly watered. Volsa is a really interesting fungus in that it's really associated with moisture. If the tree gets drought stressed, if a spruce gets drought stressed, it's very sensitive to this disease. The flip side of it is don't overwater tree, overwater spruces, because they're pretty sensitive to flooding. See, it's hard to talk to an online audience because I'm so used to say, any questions out there? I know we're saving questions till the end. They're coming, Joe. All right, lots of information. I had spruce spider mites. You see needles like this, where the needles get a mottled appearance, mottled appearance, where they, you're usually green, but there are these patches of yellow or tan. You'll notice, again, this is going back to another issue. Stomates, the stomates here are all white. There's no needle cast on this. And the spruce spider mites are tiny. Oh, my gosh, they're small. This is, I'm so glad Erin got this photo of that insect. So it's a cool season mite, about, about 80 degrees, it goes dormant. So it's active early in the season and it's active late in the season. Incredibly small, hard, hard to see. Culture control works pretty well. Just spray a jet of water on there and knock them off of the chemical control. They are mites. They are not insects. They're more closely related to spiders. Okay, so there's a certain class of pesticide called a miticide, and they will kill spruce spider mites. However, they'll also kill predatory mites. Some mites will eat plants and some mites will eat other mites and insects. So, gotta weigh that. Timing is critical. Again, it's an early, it's either early season or late season. And get out there and try to find them. An easy way to do this is take a white piece of paper and put it under the branch, shake the branch, and see if there are little black specks moving around on the piece of paper. I've also heard of the smear test where you get those black specks and you run your finger across them and see if they smear on the paper. Crude but effective. Okay, spruce spider mites. Pine needle scale, this is one of those you're going to see at any time of the year. This is an insect pest that hits pine trees, as you can see in the photo on the top, but also spruce trees. I've seen them right next to each other in the same shelter belt, a pine tree and a spruce tree and they both have pine needle scale. It's a tiny insect that you see those white coverings any time of the year. The eggs are under there. The mama scale has created that safe zone for the eggs to hatch. For the eggs to hatch, you can create the crawlers and the crawler stage is from May to early June. So again, timing is critical. Yes, horticultural oils may work, insecticides are many that will control scale insects, but again, timing is critical. You have to be out there when the crawlers are out. That's when the chemical has to be applied or the treatment has to be applied. So scouting, scouting, scouting is important. Okay, a few more I have listed as other. These are more environmental things that may or may not actually be in our diagnostic guide. This is a pine tree. In this example, it was rodent damage. It was voles that killed this tree, but I've also seen where the whole tree dies because of a line trimmer has pretty much girdled the tree. So what do you do in situations like this? You cut the tree down. There is nothing you can do, unfortunately. But if the whole tree goes all at once, then check at the base of the tree. Check right on the stem where it hits the ground and see if it's been girdled. Another thing that might happen is the site. For example, in 2012 in Bismarck, this tree is kind of on its way out, unfortunately. And they're sitting right in a pool of water. 2012 was a big Bismarck flood, just like these trees. Some of them are already dead. One of them is not. People say, well, why didn't that tree die? Who knows? Genetics, maybe that one's just a little more resistant. It's a little bit bigger. Maybe it's age. Maybe it's a site thing, but I would be willing to bet that maybe that tree lasted a little while longer, but I'd be willing to bet that it's dead. For the areas in Minot that were flooded in 2011, you'll be hard-pressed to find any conifers in that area right now that survived the flood. There are few, but there are few and far between. Okay, here's another example from Kindred, 2006. My old boss said, hey, he left a branch, a spruce branch on my desk. He said, hey, Joe, what's wrong with this tree? It's killed this one tree and it's going down the line. It's a dead branch, I didn't know. So I went out to the site, and this is what I saw in the first tree. And there it is. If you go to the left, that tree is in decline somewhat. And if you keep going down the line, well, further away, the trees are healthy. Okay, so yeah, he was right. It's starting at one end, going down the line towards the other. And I go back to that first photo, and I knew exactly what it was right away. Look at the house behind it. The house is about four to six feet higher than the driveway. And that house was pretty new. So what happened was they built a new house. They graded the ground and put in a lot of fill soil. Okay, spruce trees cannot handle fill soil. They can't handle flooding either. It's a low oxygen environment. So that's what was killing the tree. Yes, insects came in and probably some disease and finished the tree off. But really, it was that fill soil that caused the initial decline, the initial stress that allowed these other pests to come in and kill the tree. Okay, that was other. And now we're into more other. These are some smaller trees I saw in Fargo. I'd say in 09. And where I have those arrows on that individual tree, there's something different between the top of the tree and the bottom of the tree there. The bottom, it looks more full, a little more green. Above those arrows, it's a little more yellow and a little more thin. It's a subtle difference. It's a subtle difference. You have to have the artist's eye to see this. And, you know, in the background, I've got sky in the background of the photo and lawn in the background. And it's hard to see, but there is a subtle difference. Below those arrows, it's fuller. It's darker. Above is more yellow and a little more open. So I looked at the stem right in that area. And that's what I found. Okay, the strap was still on the tree. Many years later, it was choking the tree. It was girdling the tree. And there was a big swelling above that, where all the food made from photosynthesis was piling up. And I went back a year later to go check on those trees. They were gone. So, what can you do? But along the same lines, here's a big, big spruce tree where, same thing, same idea. That tree's enormous. There's something happened on the stem at about that height. In this case, it was sap suckers. Blew me away. Couldn't believe it. A sap sucker is a bird. You cannot kill it legally. Do not. They are a type of woodpecker. They're not going after insects. They're going after sap. There's not a whole lot you can do about sap suckers. And unfortunately, we always see this damage after the fact. I'm working on my own apple tree at home right now. Those buggers took out my apple tree. So, trying to figure out how to fix that. Okay. And that's going from more other to more extra. A couple of other things before we finish up here. Herbicide damage, herbicide damage on spruce trees is sometimes hard to diagnose. Sometimes it's pretty clear. We often see damage on conifers going up the tree and then a kind of a spiral. That's the way water goes up conifer stems is actually spirals up the stem. Other trees are different how water moves up the stem. Well, if herbicide is in that water, it will spiral up and kill branches along the way. And sometimes it takes an artist's eye to see that spiral. Sometimes it's hard to see. Sometimes it's not. In this case, we don't know what the causal agent was. This was over in Moorhead. There was a railroad siding there and some kind of herbicide was sprayed to keep down the vegetation. And what happened is all the spruce took some of that in and it turned those outer needles yellow. Here on campus, NDSU campus and that fence in the foreground, somebody was spraying to keep down the vegetation and I never quite figured out what the chemical, what the active ingredient was that was there. This was in Headinger a few years ago and we tried to figure out what was sprayed. Someone said it was roundup or glyphosate. Someone said it was 2,4-D. But we were never quite clear. In this case, the color was interesting. It was more of this purplish pink. But what we noticed besides the purplish pink is you'll notice that it's always the branch tips. It's the active growing points or most recently active growing points where you're going to find that damage. In some cases, it starts to twist the needles. There's also a pest called a phytoplasma that may twist the needles in a similar way. We're still trying to figure that one out as well. In this case, with all the other herbicide damage, we're pretty sure that's what caused the damage here. That being said, I wanted to go through that fairly quickly. There's a lot of information there. I'll be happy to do my best to answer some of your questions. Thanks. Thank you, Joe. We've got some questions here for you. One is, deer are browsing on a mucle pine. The needles are gone, but the buds are still there. Will the branches survive? The branches should survive. If the buds are there, that's where new growth is coming from. Hopefully, there's enough new growth to make up for the amount of needles that were lost. Again, you're just going to have to wait it out and find out. I think, well, they should be okay, but we'll see what happens. How about that spruce tree? Will the top got broken off? Will the spruce tree still grow? Yes, it will. The spruce will still grow. However, with the top broken off, it's hard to say. If it's a small tree or if it's just the very tip, the very leader, like one or two years worth of growth, a side branch can be tipped up either on its own or you can help it along. If it's large, two, three, eight inches diameter, this side branch eventually will make its way up to become the leader or actually several side branches, which is going to create a point where structurally it's going to be weakened. If it's something you can direct a new leader, great, do that. If not, well, be careful in the future. Joe, how about the difference between the rhizosphere and the stigmina fruiting bodies? Is there a way to tell the difference between the two? Sure. Yeah, stigmina, it's subtle, but you can see it under a microscope or with a 10-power hand lens. With the stigmina, the edges of that fruiting body are going to be fuzzy. They're going to be blurry. They're little tendrils that come off of those, little hair-like structures. With rhizosphere, it's pretty much round without the gloves. They're both those fruiting bodies are going to be linear on the needle. In those stomates, yes. They're laid out in a line. You have to look at those black dots carefully, like Joe said. Okay, let's say they have stigmina or rhizosphere. Do you recommend a fungicide for that? Yes, fungicides with the active ingredient, chlorothalonil. Yeah, I guess I should have added that. Great question. Chlorothalonil. There are a variety of products that have chlorothalonil as the active ingredient. Look those up. How do those needle cast diseases spread? The needle cast diseases spread. The spores get released, I think throughout the year, but mostly it's early in the growing season and they get spread. If the new growth is susceptible or receptive, that's when they can get infected. It's that new growth that's still soft and tender that is most susceptible. Later in the growing season, they're hardened up, they're less susceptible, less likely to get infected, although it can still happen. Okay, if an ice storm breaks off the branches on one side of a tree, will that side of the tree ever grow back? If an ice storm breaks off the branches on one side of the tree. Well, probably not. But that being said, sometimes trees will put out new branches off the stem. I've seen where if trees are heavily, heavily pruned or heavily, heavily stressed, they will send out new branches off the stem. It looks a little weird, but it can happen and it can grow. Yeah, for a long, long time. For a long, long time. It may take a long time to fill in. Okay. What's the latest verdict about using Roundup at the base of a tree trunk to keep the grass awake? The latest verdict. You know, there's some research that's... Oh, there's no easy answer yet. Sometimes Roundup does get into the trees. Sometimes it will get into a root or into the stem and it can cause some damage. Sometimes it doesn't. Be careful. Use it properly. Use it according to the label. Try to keep it off the tree stem if you can. If there's a wound on that tree stem or on a root, it'll get in from that wound, that fresh wound. So, try to keep it off. So, how about... Does a copper fungus spray work to get rid of black fungus growth on a small, new, blue stem? Blue spruce totem. This spruce totem, like a totem pole. I don't know. If you see black fungus growth on a young blue spruce, what do you think that is? A big, sweaty mold, maybe? It could be. Fungicides are almost always preventative. They're not curative. So, in cases like that, after the fact, it's probably not going to do much. It might prevent new infections and that would be a way to go. I'm also going to say at this point that it's hard to answer questions, because usually when you do a diagnosis, if not just like, give Joe 20 some words and here's your answer. Photos help. So, yeah. We are in the age of a digital camera and it can make such a huge difference. So, take a series of photos, close-ups, distant photos and send them to your county extension agent. They're there to help you for any type of tree disorder and then Joe is also there to support the county agent and to support you to give you the answers you need and in our digital age you can get an answer rapidly and you get research-based information from NDSU Extension. We won't try to sell you a fungicide that you don't need, for example. So, I don't know if you can do this one. Can you use well water at a pH 8 sodium level 800 ppm to help establish spruce or pine? That's a pretty specific question, but how about maybe you can talk about in general about the salt tolerance of spruce or pine compared to most other plants. You know, salt tolerance really, there's not a lot of plants, there's not a lot of trees that are salt tolerant and using water like that I would say you could use it in an emergency, but if you can get better water than that, that's a pretty high salt level. I'm not so worried about the pH. Yeah, our pH of our water is a little high. The pH of our soil is a little high. The spruces that we have here which are Colorado blue spruce, Black Hills spruce, Meyers spruce a little bit and in urban areas you see Norway spruce, they do tolerate our higher pH soils fairly well. Okay, how about do you know of any public tours of trees at Ebseraka? Just pay attention to the field day. Yeah, pay attention to the field day, August. Yeah, really August. Yes, every year is a field day and actually the people you had here tonight are the people who will leave those tours. When you prune for Volsa canker, do you prune the whole branch if only part of the branch is affected? Or just prune the part that's affected? Prune the part that's affected. If it's a sub branch of the main branch yeah, you can take out just the dead area that if that doesn't work, then you can go all the way back to the main stem. How about a chemical name to control pine needle scale? Pine needle scale, there's horticultural oils. But there are a lot of insecticides that will control scale if the timing is right. You know, a metacloprid as systemic. They care. It is early spring, yeah. Metacloprid as a systemic does control scale, but under the right circumstances carburel carburel which is also systemic can be sprayed thickened and malefiant malefiant will work. If you get it when the crawlers when the crawlers are out at the right timing, yes. Okay, a general cultural question. They have several 20 foot tall Colorado spruce trees planted in late September. Should they fertilize them in spring? I'm not a big fan of fertilizing trees in North Dakota. Generally, there's plenty of nutrients in our soil. If you are going to fertilize spring is the time to do it. But really the most limiting factor here in North Dakota is water. You know, that's the biggest issue. Far and above the nutrient issue. And 20 foot tall Colorado spruce planted in late September. Boy, I hope that had a big root system as part of it. Re-establishing that root system is really critical and water is going to be the critical component to get those roots re-established. Okay, here's something that's a really useful question. The idea that cutting off the leader is going to make your spruce tree fuller. Is that true? Do you recommend doing that? I don't recommend doing it. It can make it bushier. You know, when they share Christmas trees, spruce trees, yeah, they will clip the leader and clip the leaders of the branches. With that being said, boy, I wish I was able to do, have some diagrams here. Spruce trees are interesting in that, can you see my finger? Okay, buds on spruce trees are all throughout that leading branch. So if you clip just the top off, there should be other buds below that will take over. That will kind of compete to be the leader. So it'll make it bushier, but what you'll lose, and that's okay if you're growing a 7 or 8 foot or 10 foot Christmas tree, but what you'll lose in the long run is you'll lose a central leader. You'll have multiple leaders in years down the road. That's a bad thing. So we generally do not recommend sharing your landscape trees for spruces. How about this long-care company said that they can spray something on their spruce tree to help protect the tree winter. Okay. What do you think about that? There are products called anti-transference, those pores in the needles, those stomate pores. That's where a number of things happen, but that's where trees lose water and an anti-transference, it's called transpiration when they lose water. So an anti-transparent is basically a waxy coating that plugs up those pores. They've been kind of hit or miss here in North Dakota. They work for about three months. You have to apply them when temperatures are above freezing. So you apply it in October. So three months later is November, December, January. January generally is not above freezing in North Dakota. If you can time it right, find that mid-winter thaw. You might be able to do it and it might help, but it's going to be tough. Okay, Joe. That is going to be it. So thank you, Joe, for that outstanding presentation. And all of it, sorry, you got one person. How do you get rid of spiders on a Bruce Bruce? Spiders are spider mites. I'm okay with spiders. If it's spiders, they're beneficial. They're eating the insects. Don't worry about that spider mites. They're those mites. Jet spray of water is the common way to control it. Just use a jet spray of water in this case. You can go. Okay. Thank you, Joe.