 I'll come to another show of Celebrate Life. My name is Gary D. Carlos and I'm your host. This show is dedicated to the amazing lives of people in our community. And you know what? We're all amazing people and everyone has an amazing story to tell. Over the years, I've read too many obituaries where I said after reading it, gosh, I wish I got to know that person. Well, this show is an attempt to share with you community members who are very much alive and well and have great stories to tell. If, per chance, you would like to be interviewed or you know someone who would like to be interviewed, please send me an email at celebratelife0747 at gmail.com. Or if you have a question for our guest today, again, send me an email at celebratelife0747 at gmail.com and I'll be glad to get it over to our guests. With that, I'd like to introduce Rod Copeland as our guest today. Hi, Rod. Good to have you here. Glad to be here. Great. So let's celebrate your life. All right. Where did this amazing life start? Well, it started in a small Midwestern town in Kansas of about 3,000 people. And it was in Eastern Kansas, so it was close to the big city of Kansas City, like 75 miles away, but very, very small Midwestern town. Great. And had your family been there for quite a while? Rod, was this? No, that's an interesting history. My dad and mom were born and raised in Missouri, across the border. And dad had been the first person in his family background to go to college, and he became, and mom had gone to college, and they both became teachers. And then dad became a, he got his master's in school administration. And so he was in a small town in Missouri, and then he moved to Kansas to a small town. And he told the story of, he was a superintendent of this small little high school, and they told him, this is the depression, and that he was being paid $100 a month. And they told him, Mr. Copeland, next year we're going to pay you $90. And that's when he decided to pull up roots and move to this Garnett Kansas where I was born and raised. Wow. And he made tons of money there, I'm sure. Of course. He was a small businessman. He owned, he started selling gasoline and the supplies to farmers. And he had a couple of gas stations. And what I remember is him always worrying about meeting payroll. He had three drivers. So no, it was a modest, you know, he didn't make big money, but we were fine. We were definitely middle class and not poor, that's for sure. Sure. And so what was life like for you as a little boy there? Well, you'd ask me to think about that. And it was very ideal. Like, you know, I can't help but contrast my life with the millions of children raised in war, raised in abuse, raised, you know, with hunger and on and on and on. And I'm telling you, it was, it was the ideal life where you would get up in the morning and have your mom and fix you breakfast. I had an older brother and an older sister. So I was the youngest, but it was the typical, you leave the house in the summer, you leave the house. And my mom often had me do some chores, but I'd leave the house at whatever nine or 10. You'd come home and you heard the noon whistle blow. And you'd go out and you'd play with your neighbors. I had a couple of good buddies. And then you'd leave after lunch and same thing. And I remember some really fun experiences where just just my buddy and I would just go out into the country. I don't know, we walked three or four miles. We'd go out and visit. There was a place called Cowboy Fort near our little hometown. And it actually is an archaeological site for Native Americans. You could see where they had carved a fireplace out of the rocks. So, but it was, you know, we all knew about it. We would go there like cowboys and Indians. So that kind of thing, just wondering around and having, you know, a very good leisure life. It sounds like it set a beautiful foundation for you to grow. Oh, absolutely. And my parents definitely, by fifth grade, my dad had me mowing lawns. And as I said, my mom had me do chores. I remember I was always none of my other buddies, you know, I'd go and meet them in the morning. And I finally asked them, well, does your mom make you do things before you come? I came through the trash and none of them said yes. So I always thought, oh man, I have a rough life, you know. But dad was very much of a teacher how to work. And I had odd jobs mowing lawns. And then I picked up trash at the local Dairy Queen. I had a TV guide route. And then in high school, I worked on a farm. And so, yeah, I definitely, that foundation taught me how to live and work both. Yeah. When you were, what was school like when you went first with the school? Again, I guess like we all do, we remember our grade school teachers and, you know, I just remember maybe funny stories, but I remember in first grade, my teacher, Miss Lankard, and she, you know, just before you go home for lunch, kids would find a lost pen or pencil or book and go up to the front of the class and hold it up. Is this anybody's pencil? And I always remember, I wanted to do that, but I couldn't find anything. So I finally had this little stub of a pencil. And I went up and held it up. Is this anybody's pencil? And it went back in the head. Yeah. She was whatting in the back of the head. Go sit down, Rodney. Don't do the things I remember. But then what other thing I remember, which was sort of, I assume we'll talk about this, but I started me on my road to quote, leadership in third grade. Don't ask me why, but the teacher, we wanted to elect a class president. And, you know, and I don't even remember what, you know, much about what you were supposed to do, but I was elected president. I was definitely a popular kid, and I felt that and knew that. So yeah, I, you know, that did absolutely set the stage. Interesting. Yeah. So did you have any, when you were young like that, did you have any thoughts about what you wanted to do when you grew up? Well, I was my, I mentioned both my parents coming from Missouri. They were raised in Southern Baptist homes, very strict by, well, very strong Southern Baptist. They weren't hellfire damnation, you know, being judgmental against other people, but they were definitely believed in the scriptures and what the Bible taught and so forth and so on. And I don't know why from day one, whenever I can remember thinking about the future, I had this missionary mentality. I thought, oh, I want to be like Dr. Livingston, you know, and go be like be a doctor in Africa and help people. I started thinking that early on, and that kind of followed me all the way up to college. So yeah, that was, that's, I don't remember thinking a lot about other things about, oh, I want to, my dad talked to me quite a bit about going into business with him, but he also sort of understood that he probably wouldn't. So okay. But so that sense of you want to help others in places where they're, they didn't have the advantages that you had, did stick with you, didn't it? I know, talk about, well, this is a little later on, but you ended up going into the Peace Corps. Yeah. And that was a huge part of my life. So, well, to give you my successes and failures. So yes, I, so I went to high school where again, I was, I was very popular and I, I became president of student council. So again, I, the feeling like you were some kind of leader or people look to you that was always in there. But so, so I went to a small Baptist college where my brother and sister had attended. And my brother was a senior there. And I went as a freshman and I decided to major in pre-med so I could become this missionary doctor. And, but I had not taken many science courses in high school. And I always remember my senior year, my English teacher, you know, she said, Rodney, you, when you go to college, you're going to get a shock. You never study a minute in your life. You know, you're going to have to study. And so, anyway, I went to this little school and they gave me tests. And I have no idea, they put me in this, what an advanced pre-med group, you know, where we're all going to take all these science courses and math courses. Well, guess what? I flunked out. I flunked five hours of math and midway through that semester I knew I was doing horrible. And I went to the chemistry professor and said this, you know, this advanced class, I have no idea what you're talking about. So they stuck me over in a class for nurses. And I got a C out of that class, but I got five hours of F. So that was in the semester. And the Peace Corps falls in here. One of the things I will talk about how I've been so lucky. So that year, Kennedy sent Peace Corps applications to all graduating seniors from liberal arts schools. So my brother got me and he came walking through my dorm at the end of the semester. And he said, here, Rodney, he said, you know, you're really messing up your life. And he said, maybe you, and you've always wanted to be, you know, help people overseas and take a look at this. Well, I did. And I filled that out and sent it in and my application. And then I started my second semester. And I actually did find my second semester not pre-med. I was just, you know, regular second freshman. And I made A's and B's. But, and I also was a runner. I had a track scholarship. So I always remember finishing a race. And we only lived about 25 miles. My hometown was 25 miles. So my dad would come up and watch my track meets. So I made this race. And he came walking up after the race. And, you know, I was exhausted. And he said, here, we got this today. Well, it was a telegram from President Kennedy invited me to be in the Peace Corps. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's how they did it. And wow, I think back in that, I never hesitated. I know I said, wow, okay, let's do this. And I know my friends at college, they all thought it was crazy. They said, what are you doing? You know, what do you mean you're going to leave and on or not? But anyway, that that was, yeah, I got into the Peace Corps. Wow. So you actually went in after your freshman year of college? Yes. Oh, that yes. So in my application, yeah, I hadn't, you know, I was, I was in mid semester, my freshman year. So what they did, they, they picked a lot of what they thought were farm kids, and had been in 4-H. And they wanted to, and they, I was invited to go to British North Borneo, which is on the island of Borneo on the equator near Indonesia and the Philippines. And they wanted us to go over there and start 4-H clubs. And what I find ironic, and again, lucky is I never lived on a farm. I went to 4-H. But in my application, I talked about working on the farm, and that was good enough, I guess. So yeah, so I, the other interesting thing there is they sent us off to training in Hawaii. So I left Kansas City and this another funny little tidbit. So my parents put me my Sunday best suit, right? And put me on a plane in Kansas City, TWA. And I flew to Los Angeles, where I was going to catch up with all the other volunteers and then fly to Hawaii. So I arrive in the airport and get off the plane and go up, and there's, I somehow they gave us instructions. And I see all these kids in Bermuda shorts and T-shirts. And yeah, I was the only one in there in a Sunday suit. Kansas boy. This little religious Kansas boy. So anyway, I always remember they, we got on the plane, I was sending by these two guys next to me, they were in their, you know, college graduates on order. I could just tell they were quite amused with me. Anyway, we got to training and 72 of us got there. Those two guys were deselected real quick because they said, we're here to, we want to travel. That's, anyway, there was 72. And it really, a lot of people got deselected. We ended up with 32 of us being finally selected. Oh my goodness. It was brutal. People were getting deselected. And it's interesting on this religious thing. They called me up once. And well, that's the other ironic thing. I'm a psychologist now became one. But so these five psychologists, they were loaded with psychiatrists and psychologists training, you know, and so they, these, these, they're all men, of course. And so they, they said, we're a little bit worried about your religious background. And you're not going to save souls and convert people. Are you? And I assured them I wasn't because I had already started having my religious doubts by then anyway. And I assured them I wasn't. So that's, that was the only time that I thought I might be in a bit of trouble. So interesting. Yeah. So I got selected. I wanted to go back to that point you when you went to college for pre-med. Yeah. Got some, got hit with all the science courses and realized this is not going to work. Right. What, what, what was your thinking or your thought process on where do I go from here? Given that you had wanted to do that? Yeah, I, I pretty much felt, you know, failing and like, I knew I was just bombing out on that. But one of the, one of my characteristics, you know, I've had a number of whatever, not big ones, but, well, setbacks like that. But I'm more prone to, yeah, I just start thinking, well, what should I do next? And I guess I just need to figure that out. I mean, I didn't dwell on it too long and I didn't, you know, I wasn't devastated. So I just move forward. And yeah, yeah. Okay. So yeah, you'll figure this out. You had a sense of yourself that we can work, we can figure this thing out. Precisely. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. So, well, what was your life over in Borneo like? What was that year or two? It was amazing. Yeah, two years. And we went there, as I said, to start 4-H clubs and they sent three of us in a group went to Sarawak, which is another British colony, and three of us went to British North Borneo, and they sent the three of us up to a village up in the mountains where, you know, you had indigenous people, wonderful indigenous people, you know, natives to Borneo. And they, yes, they'd been previous headhunters their culture, you know, years and years and years before. But they were wonderful people. But we essentially bombed out on trying to start 4-H clubs. I mean, no one even knew what we were talking about. And the other two guys I was with, they really weren't working too hard. And so I went down to the head office and said, I'd like to, is there any chance I could go off on my own and do something else? And they just turned out, they said, oh, we've been wanting to send someone to this other area and do community development in agriculture. And the British government had programs where they were trying to encourage the indigenous folks to get involved in rubber tree farming and pineapples and bananas. And so they had these pamphlets that would tell you what the villagers needed to do. And the villagers were supposed to read those, which they couldn't, and, you know, prepare their land and then the government would give them seedlings and so forth. So I went out and I had a wonderful experience in this village area, where I worked in six different villages. And one chief or one tour, they called him, really took me under his wing and was a mentor there. And I ended up getting, I ended up getting 125 acres of rubber seedlings planted, I mean, through, you know, the individual villages. And I have many banana and pineapple plantings. So, yeah. And I really enjoyed that year and a half I had with those folks. I mean, I really became close to them. And it was a wonderful experience with them. Yeah. How did you deal with the language issue and how did they accept you, Rod? Yeah, that was interesting. In Peace Corps training, we spent three hours a day studying Malayan, or Mele, Malayan, yeah, from the country of Malaysia. And three hours, two hours in the morning and then an hour in the evening. And that was a, you know, brutal training. And I, this is interesting, I was horrible. I, you know, I did, I remember for the final exam, I tried to just memorize two sentences. I don't understand and please repeat, you know, I could say that in Malayan. And I, I really was horrible. And I knew that like the other Peace Corps volunteers that were much better than me. But interesting to me, when I went and worked on my own, I was all alone in those six villages. And so I learned Malayan by immersion. And I really became good at it. And I had Malayans, well, Borneese, tell me, you know, how that I spoke better than the other volunteers that some of, and I remember particularly a couple of volunteers that had done really well than the formal training, but hadn't gone beyond that. Anyway, see, I became pretty fluent in Malayan and communicated, you know, quite well. And interesting to me, it was a market Malay because the, the, the doosan people that I worked with had their own dialect. And then they, there were other tribes nearby the E bond that had other dialects. So there in that area, they all, they spoke Malayan to communicate with each other, but it wasn't, you know, they didn't read and write and so forth, but they could speak. And that's basically I spoke at a very basic, you know, market Malay. Yeah. Wow. Wow. How did this experience change your life after? Oh, my goodness. I mentioned that I had started to doubt my Baptist training. And I remember in particular at that, at Ottawa where I flunked out or at Ottawa university where I didn't do well that first semester. But I, the second semester I had a course called New Testament, which, you know, counted as a history course. And the professor who was a PhD in theology or a doctorate in theology gave the lecture on hell. And essentially, you know, the Baptist believe if you don't believe in Christ, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, you're going to go to hell. So I went after the lecture and again, this is before I'd been in the Peace Corps and I said, you know, there are millions of people who can't even, you know, have never heard of this story. And how do you explain that? He said, well, it's unfortunate, but they're going to hell. And I remember walking out of that class is shaking my head. So that was the beginning of I'm getting a little different perspective. But in Borneo in particular, these people again, were just lovely, loving people and followed the golden rule. And they were kind and respectful and on and on and on. They had all these tributes. And yet I would see these missionaries coming in and telling them they were going to hell. And I just, you know, disturbed me that. Yeah. But what the main thing I remember is coming home and I went back to my hometown, going to my parents. I was, yeah, I was only 20 years old. I got home and I went to church, the Baptist church. One thing I always ordered my parents by not, if I was with them, I would go to the church with them, you know, to that point where I said, I'm not going to church with you. I don't believe in this anymore. But I went to church and I'll never forget running into the minister's wife. And she started talking about these, you know, these, the people I had worked with and going to hell. And I said, how can you possibly even, you know, believe that? She said, well, I said, they haven't even heard, some of them haven't heard this story. Same thing I said to the professor, she said, well, everyone has Radio Free Europe and everyone's heard. And I kind of, from that point on, I went in another direction. But yeah, yeah. Wow. When you went back to college, what did you major in? So I went back to college and I went to a Kansas State Teacher's College. And I got a little antsy just right off the bat because I wasn't working, you know, I'm missing the Peace Corps and working with my wonderful families. So I just happened to hear about a place that a group of parents had started their own school for children with mental disabilities. Back then, children with mental retardation, because their children were not allowed to go to the public school. You know, it was an ARC. Association started citizens. They started their own school in this town. And they were looking for volunteers to work. And I can't even really tell you why that attracted me. But I went out there and that changed my life. I volunteered that year and fell in love with those kids. And then the second year, the director of the school, he would hire college students to teach all the classes and, you know, paraprofacials. He would hire one person to teach in the morning, college student, and another college student to teach in the afternoon. Well, so I signed up to do that. And I was in the morning. And so I was going to meet my afternoon partner. And lo and behold, this woman walks in and it's my future wife. It was Gwena. She did the same thing, volunteer, to come out. She wanted to get hired. We were both paid. You were paid to do that. So she called, taught this group of kids. And we had to make lesson plans, right? So we would go to a local tavern to make lesson plans. And we basically fell in love over time. The rest is a history. We've been married to her for 56 years. So that was the idea that changed my life. And also, another thing I remember is these kids had so much, I could see potential, you know, and so many, and I always remember a little Jimmy, who was a kid with autism at the time. And I didn't know what autism meant from anything, but he just, I just tell, he was loaded with, you know, intelligence and this and that. But he had all his problems. So I thought, well, I'm going to call the local doctor. He'll give me some ideas on how to work with Jimmy. I'll never forget this. I called this doctor. He said, Oh, Jimmy, he just really should be sitting at home watching television. Wow. Yes, exactly. And I thought, you got to be kidding me. So that caused me to decide to get my masters in school psychology. Because I know that I knew that they assess children like that. And I knew I would learn about intelligence and learn about them. So it helped me to go get my masters in school psychology. And then I went on to get a PhD in developmental psychology. But yeah, again, that changed my life. Yeah. Yeah. Both, both of those markers in your life, getting into the Peace Corps and then working as a volunteer. That's significant impacts on your life. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So you got through school, you got a beautiful wife. Right. Right. You know her. Yes, I do. But there's a story to be told about wanting to take her to see the Atlantic Ocean. Tell that story, Rob. Let me first tell you what she, you've asked, I know at some point about mentors, she was always been a tremendous mentor for me. So we finished, I got my master's while she finished her bachelor's. And I taught in this small little town, I mean, it was small, like 500 people. And I taught one year. And then we were trying to decide where to go get jobs. Me with my master's, her with her bachelor's. And we looked at jobs in Iowa and here and there. And she got the idea. Well, let's look up in Kansas City in the inner city. We'd both had a lot of discussions about minority groups and working with disadvantaged folks and I don't know. So we went up there and applied for jobs and lo and behold, she got a job teaching in an all black junior high. And I got a job as school psychologist in that same area of Kansas City, where I had all black schools. I had a lot of schools, but about half of my schools were all black and then the other half are mixed black and white. And so we took that job. And I went on and later as she went on later to got her got her master's, I got my PhD. But yes, the Atlantic story. In me getting my master's, it is tied to actually Emporia where I got my master's and she got her master's. We became good friends with this couple. Glenna was a sorority sister with the young woman. And Bob and I became buddies taking classes together in psychology. And so we became good buddies. And so when late when we were all we were living in Kansas City and they were still in in Kansas and another town Topeka, but we were visiting one weekend, they were visiting us. And we went out as we usually did bar, bar hopping and having a good it was a Saturday evening. And we all had our jobs to go back to Monday morning. But somehow we had this discussion about when you wouldn't you want to just jump on a plane and just go someplace sometime and and the girls kept kind of pushing it. And and Bob and I went to the restroom and he said, Well, let's just take them up on your bluffing. They won't if we push them, they'll back out. So we went back. Yeah, let's do it. He said, Oh, boy, let's do it. So we went and started we went back to our apartment in the inner city. And we start looking for places to go. And someone found Atlanta, you know, we could go to Atlanta. And one of us said might have been me. Oh, boy, we'll see the ocean because we stuck it for Atlantic City stuff. We thought we were going to go see the ocean. We all that'll be worth it. We went out to the airport and kind of midnight plane to Atlanta, Georgia. And by the time we got there, we were all, of course, just dead. And oh my gosh, actually had a great day. We went to a snow mountain, I think, you know, Atlanta's a great city. Oh, yeah. And so we had a great day and we, you know, flew back. And of course, we all went to work Monday morning and bragged on. Oh, guess what we did? Wasn't there a point, though, in that story where you asked a cab driver, how much it would cost to get to the Atlantic Ocean? No, we may have thought about it. We may have thought about it. Yeah. Yeah. So what brought you to Vermont? Yeah. When I was there in the inner city, a fellow, he was a master's degree working with kids with very much disturbance out of the same office where I was a school psychologist. And he was working on his doctorate in spatial education at the University of Kansas. And he knew that I was interested in going forward and working my PhD. And he said, well, there's this research and training program, right, where you work, you know, on third street, right in the heart of inner city. And there's a fellow named Vance Hall. He's, he's, I think he might be looking for doctoral students. He wasn't sure. So I said, oh, great. So I find out where Vance is. Well, Vance had located himself in the basement of a liquor store right on third, I mean, it was in the heart of the inner city. And so I stumbled in there and he, I said, I understand you might be looking for doctoral students. And he said, well, yeah, he said, I am, he said, I haven't had any yet. And he said, well, what are you doing? And when I told him I was at school, it's like, he said, oh, he said, I want to do more research in the schools. He had done research with school principals, where showing that if they became a positive force in a kid's life, that made a huge difference versus being a disciplinarian and just always, you know, punishing them for doing bad things. So he, he took me on as a doctoral student. And sure enough, I got him connected. I had been a school psychologist there. And one principle in, I guess we have a visitor. One principle in particular was just an outstanding young, you know, person that worked so well with all black students, black parents, he was in one of those chain schools where it was about half white, half black. Those schools were very, they had a lot of upheaval within the student body because of white, black clashes and so forth. He was excellent. Well, anyway, he turned out to be an excellent person to let us do research. And so I did my dissertation working with him, and actually published a couple more articles with him, because he went on to get his doctorate through Vance. So yeah, that, so that's how I got into, you know, moving forward. Right. And you were the first, well, your, your parents had degrees. So you were the second generation of going to college, but you got your PhD. That's, that was, yeah. And then, and then Vermont, how did Vermont happen? Okay, maybe you asked me that. And that the way I got to Vermont is through my advisor, Vance. Vance had a collegial working relationship with the, the chairman of the department of special education at University of Vermont, a man named Hugh McKenzie, he may have known you. Yes, yes, I do. Yeah. So Hugh was and Vance worked together and doing some research and so forth. And the way I got to Vermont is I finished, I stayed at the University of Kansas for 10 years. Four of it was getting my PhD and another six working there. I got, I got some grants through the National Institute of Mental Health and to the Bureau of Education and Handicap. So I was there, but I always knew I wanted to get out and both Glen and I decided we wanted to get out of the city. And I thought, well, I'm going to go get a job in a school where it's not published or parish and, you know, teach and relax and have a good life. So the job opened up in Southwest Missouri State in Southern Missouri. And I applied for it and got the job. And it turns out Glen and I both hated Springfield, Missouri. The school was mediocre to say the least, but boy, we were in the buckle of the Bible Belt. And that element was not pleasant. The weather was horrible. It was so much further south than Kansas City that it just so I was, I had decided I wanted to find another work and I found a few McKinsey because I had gotten to know him through working with Vance. And I just wrote him a letter on the off chance. I said, you know, I'm bent, I'm here, but I'm really looking to relocate and wondering if you know of any jobs that might be interested. Well, come to find out. He had Sister Elizabeth Cannon, which some of your listeners will know. She was president of Trinity College when, when Dick Snelling, an elected governor, she opposed him. And in the Snelling manner, he appointed her the head of human services. And yeah, and she then had to appoint commissioners and deputy commissioners. And she appointed Hugh McKinsey as her assistant deputy secretary of human services. So he got right back to me and said, we have openings in the Department of Mental Health and the Department of Social and Rehab Services for a deputy commissioner. I had no idea what a deputy commissioner was. But I called him and that I said, well, what is a deputy commissioner? What are they doing? He told me. So I applied. Oh, and he said mental health has already been filled by a, it was by a man named Jim Walton, who became quite proud of Vermont. So I applied for the SRS deputy and got hired and got and came to Vermont as deputy commissioner. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Interrupting, huh? Yes. Wow. Yeah. I've been so lucky in my life because number one, my brother coming by the dorm at very right time, giving me that Peace Square application. And this experience, just at the right time, knowing Vance was the lucky thing and his connections. And then when I got to Vermont, I got to know the commissioner of mental health, Richard Searles. And deputies and commissioners worked a lot together across departments. And I worked a lot with Richard. Well, here's another example of total happenstance. So I went to my boss, the commissioner of SRS and said, I really want to step down as commissioner. He had an opening in their planning division. And I was not very happy as deputy commissioner, particularly the job itself. And also my boss wasn't that wonderful and I won't mention his name. But anyway, so I went up to the personality department in Montpelier and a woman named Sarah Philbrook. She was the head of personnel for years and years. And I worked with her a lot because deputies do a lot on hiring and firing and so forth. So I told her I wouldn't apply for the planning director of SRS and so I'll go over there that notebook, you'll find the application. So I went over and filled out an application and gave it to her and drove back to the water barrier to my office from my period. And she called me and said, she's a copal. What job do you think you applied for? I said, well, director of planning and SRS. Well, you applied for director of planning and mental health. The department went, I said, oh, no, no, no, no, SRS. Then I hung up. I said, oh, it's open. And it was with Richard Searles. Oh, yeah. So I called Richard, who I really liked. And I thought he liked me. And he said, oh, yeah, I said, I opened it up, but I never saw it when I really wanted. So it's there, but I haven't filled it. And I told him about my mistake. He said, oh, my guys, well, let's go have a beer. So we went and had a beer and he hired me. Wow. And so the rest, so that changed my life again, because there I was in mental health and I had my period mental health. Yeah, it's kind of amazing. Wow. And, and that was just the beginning of that mental health journey. Oh, yeah. How long? About 20, at least 25 years, I think, or 20 years. And you ended up commissioner and commissioner as you well know. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, I had a, I had a wonderful, I enjoyed mental health, all the jobs I had, I was director of planning and then director of the division of mental health and then commissioners. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Right. Yeah, it was. Yeah. So let's switch gears a little bit, right. Tell me about your family and what family means to you? As I have already mentioned, Glenna, my wife of 56 years has truly been a tremendous mentor. You know, again, she directed, she caused us to end up in Kansas City. She's always given me good advice, they know, and when I'm pondering and wondering about things. And she's just, you know, tremendously important. And then we have an only child, Elizabeth, and she now has two kids. So we have two grandchildren, which are just adorable. One, Dylan's four, and Phoebe's going on two, I mean, she's a year and three quarters or something. So just, you know, from my story that I've been talking about family is everything. Family for me, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Again, that's that's why I, I just ponder all these folks who don't have that and have never had that and yet, you know, do wonderful things and have lives. And I, you know, I guess we all pick ourselves up, no matter what lands on us and move forward. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are there any things in your life awards that you won special achievements that you feel really good about that you want to share? Sure. I, again, experiences that I, you know, thinking back on a ponder, the first one was when I was a graduate student there in Kansas City to the University of Kansas. I had, I had written a grant on training paraprofessionals in the schools to help, you know, kids with both troubled kids and kids with learning. But so the Bureau of the Educationally Handicap came to visit in regard to that grant and others. And then shortly after that visit, they invited me to go, they invited me to be a reviewer of grants as a graduate student. And so in that, and I said, Oh, of course. And so you would get, I guess I'm trying to remember, I had about 10 or 15 grants that I had to review in detail. And I think there were 30 or 40 in total and there was a review team. So we all gathered and watched in the DC. But being selected to do that as a graduate student was an honor to me because we go to, we go to DC and they're all PhDs. And the very first grant to be reviewed was one that I had reviewed. And they asked me to go first to get my detailed analysis. Oh, I'm sorry. No, they asked, I went second. They asked my other, the other reviewer to go first. Well, it turns out he's the Dean of some school of education in somewhere in the East. And I don't even remember now, but he started talking about this grant and gave it very good marks. And I had flunked it. I had said, this grant has big flaws and shouldn't be funded. And I always remember saying, Oh my God. I remember just going into that, my, I don't know what's going to happen now, but I gave my review and the panel who are all other PhDs agreed with me. So that I remember that and just I'm quite honored that that yes stepping out and just being honest. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that being being selected, you know, to do things like that, you know, stand out in your life. When you think of leadership and it's something that you've been, ever since you were young, it was always there for. Yeah. Are there, were there any people that you look to for leadership mentors or people that you might have been seeing in the news or whatever that really captured what a good leader would be? Well, let me think about that. You know, the people that definitely were mentors that first job I had at Lyon County Mental Health, where I worked with kids with severe disabilities, the college student, the director, he, he really, again, he, he chose me when he, Leonard and I taught out there that year, and he took another job. And so in his absence for the summer, they were going to appoint one of us students to be the acting director, interim director for the summer. Well, he picked me to do that. And that, that stood out, you know, wow, he picked me. Yeah. And so that was kind of the beginning of that feeling. And then when I went on to, you know, graduate school and Vance was very supportive of me and I could tell he thought I had, you know, leadership abilities. And so I don't know, there's always been having, having that experience where people start looking to you, you know, has, yes, it's been a common thread. Sure has. And, and it's something that you didn't shy away from either. No, I, in fact, I, I moved toward it. I, yeah, I, that's interesting. I, I remember in high school, the student council experience, I wanted to be student council president. And we did, in fact, make a big change in how the student council operated, which I led that. And then when we went to, you know, when I'm the Peace Corps, I asked, can I go out and do my own thing and lead that. And then back to Kansas and back in school. I was actually became president of what they call the CEC council for education or something. I was a student group that, but I, I would look, I, yes, I looked toward those because I wanted to do that. And, and then in, you know, in particular in Vermont, I, you know, looked for those opportunities, I know. So yeah, it's something that I actually was drawn to. Yeah. When you were in mental health in Vermont, as the commissioner and director of mental health before that, anything that stands out as an accomplishment during those years? Yeah, I knew I was forgetting something when you asked about accomplishment. Yeah, absolutely. One thing in particular, which you played a role in, we, you know, mental health systems were under criticism as well, they should be forever and ever. And there was a psychiatrist, I believe you have a psychiatrist, Eful or Tory, which you may remember, he led a group and they assessed mental health state systems all across the country. And again, lo and behold, Vermont was picked number one. And how, but with a C plus, you know, he was good and saying, all systems need to be improved. And yeah, Vermont seems to be number one. And I always, I mean, so what I remember is then we, at some point after that, we had a, oh, and by the way, when we were picked number one, one of the main reasons is because we were one of the few states that had this strong program going on in children's services, which you had something to do with. So that was part of that. But then we had a consultant come in, and I'm forgetting his name, but I don't know why he came in and did some assessment of us. But he, at the end of his three or four days stay, he did this overall presentation. And he said, you know, while I've been here, I've been asking people who's kind of was, you know, the leader of you guys being number one and who do you think had the most influence. And I honestly didn't know if he would, I didn't know who he would say, but he said, oh, so it's Rod Copeland, you know, and I always remember being quite, you know, amazed and, you know, having the feeling of accomplishment. Absolutely. Yep. That's great, Rod. But you know, that would have happened in Vermont without all of us working together. That probably was the distinguishing piece about that department then. It was a great team effort. Yeah. Precisely. So we're getting close to the end of the interview. Are there, quotes that you have that you would like to share that really have helped guide your life, are there nuggets of knowledge that you have picked up over the years that you want to share with folks about that help guide your life? I feel like we've talked about a lot of things. You know, working, well, I don't know if I'd say that's already enough, but all I know is I would say it's so, so, so important to listen to other people that you're trying to be involved with and maybe help, but listen, listen, listen to their perspective. And the other nugget of what I would say is a key thing is finding like-minded people. I mean, that's what gave me strength and, you know, being in a director level in the departmental house is very stressful. But sharing that stress with other people is, you know, is extremely important. So in fact, one of the things Richard Searls advised me, he was such an important mentor, which by the way, one of the things he advised me is, you know, don't be commissioned more than five years, five and up, because you can't be a great change agent if you're thinking, oh, I'm going to stay, stay safe. But anyway, he was very clear on don't take a job with someone you don't think you're going to work for. And I know a lot of people have, quote, not great bosses and they complain about their boss and he was very clear and don't, don't work for someone you can't work for, you know. Yeah, well, that's a good, good piece of advice for sure. Yeah, yeah. Now, there's also another little piece of an ingredient that I think you helped bring and others did is to have fun in the tough work. Oh, that's my sense of humor is so important. So important. I couldn't agree more. But yeah, having fun and absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, is there anything else you want to say as we wrap up the interview? It's been great spending time with you. I've blabbed enough. No, I kind of I made a few notes here and there. And I don't know if I mentioned how important my brother was to me growing up. He was my older brother. And you know, a lot of older brothers, I know a lot of younger brothers who had older brothers over this were not did not treat them but anyway, my brother is extremely important. And my sister, my older sister as an adult. And then my brother-in-law, I mean, I was so fortunate. You asked about family, but I've just been so fortunate. They have a good family. Yeah. Oh, that's great, Ron. Yeah. You've been enveloped by a lot of love in your life. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that's great. All right. Well, thank you very much for spending an hour with us. No problem. Like, enjoyable. I knew it would be. So yeah, good.