 Thomas Jefferson said, a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite for democracy. The following program is part of the series, Influencers and Media Makers. A number of years ago, CCTV sat down with some of Vermont's most influential voices in media, news, and information access to understand their perspectives about the role of media in democracy and how their decisions shape the way we as Vermonters receive information. Much has changed since our first interviews. The people, the technology and social media, the political landscape, and so much more. Fast forward 20 or so years, and in collaboration with Leadership Champlain, we are revisiting the topic with a focus on what has changed, gaps and challenges across geographic, language, and socioeconomic boundaries. The conversations you will hear with today's gatekeepers provide important, varied, and insightful context to the media in Vermont today. Enjoy. Welcome again, Ali. Thank you so much, Ali Jang, and I want to make sure I'm pronouncing your last name correctly, because I've heard, I know my name gets mispronounced a lot, so I want to make sure I say your name properly, Raquel. So Ali Jang, thank you so much for joining us. As we've shared, we're doing a series of interviews with local media makers and influencers, especially on the topic of the role, the evolving role of media, and the necessity of an unfettered press for a healthy democracy. And as we explored this topic, we knew we wanted to get a diverse group of perspectives and representing as many different community members as we can in this conversation. So we've spoken with some TV personalities, and we will with additional radio, newspaper people, but we were thinking that we wanted to expand this conversation to include leaders from particular sub-communities, multicultural communities in our area. And so that's one of the reasons we asked you today. Now, you've had a variety of roles, leadership roles in our community. You've worked with lots of families in the school district, started parent university, you're a building bright futures, and of course are now an elected city counselor in Burlington. So you also came here as an immigrant from Mauritania. So in terms of vast experience and perspectives, it felt like you would have a lot of rich insight and experience to share with us. And I know you don't represent all immigrants or everyone in our multicultural communities, but we would love to hear especially your perspective as you represent them, as well as the broader community of Burlington. So that's sort of how we thought of including you on this conversation. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks for being here. So our first questions are about democracy and civic engagement in particular. And starting off with, when you think of our multicultural communities that we have here, how do you believe, how do they access the information that they need to know, whether it's about their local neighborhoods or whether it's about processes related to civic engagement such as voting? Do they have the information they need? Where do they access it? And what are the sources of information that are working well for them? Yep, thank you for having me. And I think that's a great question because civic engagement matters, and as newcomers we should feel that we belong and that we are part of the process. And where the new Americans are accessing information, most of the time it's in so many different ways in so many different areas. There are some who are, you know, educated, who understand the language, understand the system, they can access the information easily. And those same people also are able sometimes to, you know, provide the same information they acquire to others who are vulnerable, you know, in terms of the language. And, you know, there are also some families who definitely rely on their children only in order to understand when is voting, who should I be voting for and why should I be voting for this particular person, for example. But unfortunately there is not like an outlet where people go and understand what's going on in the civic life of the city and the state that has not been. And, but currently there are leaders of the new American communities who decided to come together and try to change that narrative a little bit. And those leaders are, you know, people in so many different sectors who understand the system, who are doing great work and they will now create an organization called the Vermont New American Advisory Council, which is, you know, working to increase engagement and provide opportunities for new Americans to have a sense of belonging. And it's a working progress and I feel like that's a good start. It's needed and we are trying to provide that service. Yeah. So that was an important preliminary conversation that we had with you and with Sandrine Dabouie of the, of the, of VNAC, the New American Advisory Council that was really helpful for us as well in understanding some of those broader issues. And you mentioned that many families are relying on their children. That is because the children are the ones who learn English most quickly, right? So you're speaking especially of those who come here without English and have to start really learning the language. Are there media sources? So it sounds like there's a very piecemeal approach out of necessity in terms of getting the information people need. And what are some of the sources of information? It sounds like VNAC is still forming and developing its ways of interacting and helping educate people about civic processes. But are there sources? Is it about community leaders? Are there certain media sources, are there additional? Is it social media? Is it WhatsApp? Is it multi-cultural liaisons in the schools? What are the sources that are that are key to getting information out? I mean, I think, you know, let's make the distinction about accessing to information and accessing information about civic being civically engaged. And when we talk about civic engagement is about, you know, from my perspective at least is about, you know, politics in society, etc. But there are also all the sources of information that exist. For example, you mentioned one of them like the homeschool liaisons, multi-cultural liaisons of the Wellington School District who are trained professionals who are definitely, you know, interpreters and cultural brokers who are able to take information about the education of their children and appropriate paperwork to families and vice versa. What the school need, what the families need and they are the bridge between those two. People also access information in their places of worship, for example like the mosques and where they go to, you know, so many places. We also have the Association African Living in Vermont. They have many professionals from different socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds who are able also to talk about, you know, the COVID-19 and who are able to talk about benefits and all of it, VRRP, all of it, you know. There are so many different ways. But also, you know, most of the time what I have noticed lately is community groups they are organized in WhatsApp groups. WhatsApp, which is an app where you can send, you know, audio messages, video messages or see people just like Skype. You know, it's very popular and very accessible. And people come together and definitely to, for example, Penn University, we use WhatsApp to definitely have conversation, talk about the classes and it's very interactive and easy to access. You don't need to sign up, you download the app and you end. And it's from the phone, right? From the phone. Any, you know, smartphone you can download that app. You know, and what I also noticed when we talk about also information, what's hard is information about what's happening, for example in the state or in the country. They're not accessing that information from the news outlets in the state. They are not. No. They're accessing it actually from their country of origin television. Yeah. So you go to a house, you see them in Somali, you know, they're watching Somali television. It's here in the United States. It's not WCAX, it's not Channel 17, it's not Channel 5, but it's their country of origin national television that provide information about what's happening in Ukraine, for example. Right. So in terms of world news they're accessing that through home. Do you feel like they're also getting news about what's happening here in the United States from their own news channels at home? Exactly. In that language. They can talk about Trump or whatever. Yes. I think why it's important maybe for them is this new outlets here is not providing one from their own language and also two hearing it in English they will not be able to comment. But in their own language a conversation can start. People around a cup of tea they can talk about the TV, what is happening in the U.S. but the news is not coming from here. Right. That's just an observation that I have noticed. Right. And that might work for sort of national level news but probably not so much with news about Vermont. Exactly. Even though we're very important we're probably not getting reported on on the Somali news stations is what I imagine. Okay. So it sounds like non-traditional sources like WhatsApp in terms of information sharing. What about civic? What about things like voting? Are there ways that are working or not working? We're being hosted here by CCTV and that's part of the mission here is to provide access to information and democracy supporting processes. So I think there's also a curiosity about what are things that could be happening to better support. You mentioned now a community television that has like a mission that is unique and from my perspective I don't even consider them as like this big news outlet. This is for me and anyone feels like this is my home. It's not only about even accessing information but also producing your own information. Sometimes you go to CCTV you see Somalis together just talking in Somali. It's for them. That's why it's beautiful this organization. But also I believe that this organization also does an amazing job by basically identifying youth training them, giving them the tools in order to go to the community and create their own television, their own programming. Sometimes in different languages that's amazing. But you know unfortunately I feel like seven days did start something amazing. New American birds where new Americans have like a column and there was a reporter named Camelia Sarri used to be here and just talking just about the new commons their lives they live here but that no longer exists and it's unfortunate that the other media outlets are not providing that level of civic engagement here. But when we talk about civic engagement I think VNAC also does an amazing job and our members worked very hard in making sure that the ballots are now translated in different languages. At least it's a sample in all voting booths for example. Where you go there is a sample in different languages. You can reflect and vote. And yeah so basically I feel like it's an ongoing process and people are identifying the issue and it's a fact, a matter of fact that you guys are having this type of project to talk about media and also inclusion in the media. I think this is something that we all can produce something and learn from it and see where there opportunities to fill the gap. Yeah and what you said made me think of a conversation that we actually had here or maybe it was a conversation with Sundreen and with you. I'm trying to remember where it happened but where we were talking about democracy and civic engagement and skill building really and understanding like where do you get that sort of learning about what it means to be civically engaged especially if you come from a place where maybe that was less available or where the processes were different. What does it mean to come here and how do I learn even though people who are born and raised here sometimes are not so civically engaged so it's not just a question of coming from another country but just how do we develop the skills in all of our community members and what does it take to help people feel like informed. I love how you said this place is sort of like home. It's our place too. We can come here and make our own news in our own languages. So yeah thank you you've been joined by Kelly here. No sneaking in. So another one of the topics that we've been speaking to in our speaking about in our interviews has been the topic of news deserts which I'll read our definition we've been sharing here. We define it as a community either rural or urban with limited access to the sort of credible and comprehensive news and information that feeds democracy at the grassroots level. What are your thoughts and again you don't have to speak only to the multicultural communities of course you have that unique perspective of the people that we're speaking with but what are your thoughts on what constitutes a news desert and do you think they exist in Vermont? Yeah so yes I don't I personally I don't think basically it exists and it does not exist. It depends. It exists in a fact that basically what news are being told what is important enough for these let's say corporate or privately owned news outlets to decide this is a message we want to share out right so basically in that sense it exists basically because they have the power to decide what to let out what to not let out and also you talk about let's say the printing right they also have the power who to coat who to include in the in the article and who to not for example and sometimes you can compare two different articles about the same subject but still you will not see that it aligns perfectly each one of them have their own bias have their own basically way of doing things and they have to stick to it and even the reporter sometimes is not the one who make that decision so in any way if you hold the media you have power basically in that sense it exists there are some news being told and some that are not being told because it's not important to them but at the same time it does not exist in Vermont because in Vermont here we have so many different news outlets that are very different that are very diverse and they all provide abundant amount of media of news but also what type of news they decide to share out I think is we have to put it in a balance but from my perspective it exists and it doesn't exist okay I think that's interesting that you talk about power you know because I think we're thinking of news desert as in is there a place or is there a group you know are there holes in where news media where there's access to media and information whether it's a geographic place or a group of people are there people who aren't able to get what they need in terms of information but you sort of turned that around to power and are we inadvertently creating deserts which it sounds like you don't think we do so much in Vermont which is good to hear in terms of just our decision making about what is news or the angle that we use to tell that news the bias that we may not even realize we have as we tell the stories exactly and what you said made me think also of one thing currently the Muslim community around the world and here they're celebrating the month of Ramadan right you haven't read about it in any media you haven't watched a clip about Ramadan is happening in the state our children are going to these schools the teachers need to know the community need to know in order to build a community we are not the white Vermont that was here couple you know centuries ago it's changing and we have to embrace a change and the media has a role to play we have a mosque the Imam has not been interviewed what is this what does it mean the coworkers that you work with what are the perspective what should you do for someone who's celebrating Ramadan what should we avoid you know that education the media have the power to use and educate but here it's right here it doesn't exist so there is desert in that sense again in terms of what gets covered and so we could take this moment to say that Ramadan Mubarak is one of the one of the greetings that we would give at a time like this right let's take our little tiny moment for educating but yeah I had to learn that myself before I met with you I was like okay what do I need to say again and we don't we don't offer you food right now and so are these things no but I think it is important right like because we have so many neighbors who are observing Ramadan so thank you for bringing that up and thank you for joining us during a month that is the most important time of year right for people who celebrate it so let's see impact of social media what is the impact of social media on news access issues in particular with maybe our multi-cultural communities but just from your perspective if it has an impact you know so if it does then what is it you know I think here in the United States and compared to where I'm from you know social media is starting to become something right but there the community you can access the news anywhere all the time in buses you know circles outside because access society is just people are outside people know each other right but here it's a little bit different people are more isolated in their own home their own job their own small communities so there is not that level of interaction human interaction right but here social media plays an integral role of this society almost when you when you fighting a war it's not the words through social media that's where you reach the people that's where they connect that's where you send the message and that's where people react it can be dangerous sometimes you know and very not healthy at all to be in it Facebook let's say Twitter and as an elected official I know it's sometimes it's just it's just too much because of comments and people who comment you don't even know who they are but they can exactly strong opinions and feel more free to share those opinions because they have that sort of yes and no nobody's you know holding them accountable you know sometimes but social media for example from the perspective of new Americans I don't think you know through WhatsApp yes people interact they talk about it but also you can become a target as well it can be very dangerous you can become a target the social media also can be very you know because you can access all type of personally I can access all types of information that I look into Facebook or Twitter quickly you know and I think if it was in Africa I wouldn't have that opportunity but here at the same time there is just you need to find the balance find the limits you know when it's not healthy you get out when it's healthy interactive you grow it's good yeah okay alright when we so sort of moving to more your personal experience as a leader in the community from what you see what makes an influencer when you think of yourself or other leaders whether whether on the city council or within the multicultural communities what makes an influencer or leader in those communities and how do people become trusted leaders yep I think you know I think before anything you have you have to earn the trust first in order to influence people there is something that you're doing well and you're doing uniquely and you're doing you know you build relationship basically with people you know who you are and I think with that you have to be authentic have to be yourself who you are there is no too much basically makeup for example you're not putting on a show yes exactly you be you be you you be authentic and you know and I think also having the love of helping people and if you help someone and I think that someone also will go to you somewhere else you know and then over time you are accumulating some credit basically trust from the people that you serve and in one point if you want to sell this let's say a cup of coffee for example it doesn't matter what's in it people are not buying it because what's in it they're buying it because you're selling it you know what I mean so I think that relationship building is so important self and people you know will definitely rely on you on air formation that are credible they'll say oh if he says that it's right because you you worked with them and you worked with so many people and you know I think becoming a leader it's sometimes all about some people are it's just natural to them it's not something that they don't need similar seminaries they don't it's just they're just natural leaders right and you know I think whatever it is there should be a power or a love of service it's not you're not serving your own self and at the end of the day it will also show you're serving people authentically by being yourself and I think you will become an influencer and a leader who's trusted with anything that you say mm-hmm I love that I like that perspective you a love of service and being authentic seems like great advice for a leadership seminar right there um you're a natural um as a public figure and leader in the community and among you know these various multicultural communities because I think you I imagine are seen as a leader not only you're from Mauritania originally but but just as somebody who has also had the experience of coming here as an immigrant um and then becoming a leader an elected leader in our community I imagine first of all that you're seen as a role model including to other new Americans right whether or not they come from even the same continent um but just as somebody who has had a similar kind of experience um how do you reach people so in your work as a city counselor or a building bright futures how do you reach people when you need to share important information what what techniques do you use like I you know I rely on social media sometimes and just putting it out there you don't know who's picking it up and who's going to respond or something you know twitter facebook whatever it is have pages where I put information and pages where I just put a question and people react basically and I'll I'll I'll have an understanding about where people are at right um but most of the time also it's more about you know the people that I know in the community too who are leaders like me yeah and I know Raquel if I send you an information I know you have the ability to send it to 200 other people right through your work the network that you are involved in I think perfectly look like that you know I go to jitan for example in the Nepali community same thing you know I have my people my my network of leaders also that I leave information in order for them to decimate that information so there is social media there is also the community members that are leaders who are influencers and who are who have the love of service as well those two so it sounds like um and I think that's another nice thing about Vermont actually as you say like we have our networks and it's a very small community we in our program like we get to hear from commissioners of various departments you know it's such a small state and so we do know each other across the community um and so even if I don't have the connections I know who to ask like oh I'm going to ask Ali and who else should I be talking to about this particular issue he'll be able to give me some great names and great sources and um thinking of the term code switching so I thought this would be an interesting just as you know from anybody who is bilingual multi-lingual multi-cultural um and so defining it um as the process of shifting from one linguistic code whether a language or a dialect to another depending on the social context or the confirmation the conversational setting so if we think of that as code switching um when we're multi-lingual by cultural we often resort resort to cultural switching as well right like there are things that I would do with certain groups of people that I might not do with others do you find a need for code switching as you share or try to get across information for the communities you serve both in either direction whether it's for the larger community or whether it's more specifically for the multi-cultural communities do you find that you have to navigate certain and are you able to say something about that or share with us absolutely yes yes I mean I feel like you know it exists not only from the linguistic perspective but also from just day-to-day operation day-to-day life you know there are in places where I go people that I am with you know we speak freely about anything yeah but sometimes I have to you know filter what I have to say yeah we have all of that and I think sometimes also is about because you have to make things funny in order for this yes make it funny make it interesting about because the person the reading you have about the person in front of you you know this is not you should not make this too serious make it funny make it easy right and sometimes people also bring you like a problem you know this is big but you don't want to add a level of stress to them right but you have to at least you know make it in a way that you know there is no issue that we can solve it might take some time and you switch you code switch about and to make that person feel better right there is also sometimes even in there are things that I want to talk about but I have to code switch use different language in order for all the people in the room do not have to say because you and I understand French and the others don't is all of mechanism that you have to use but it all depends on the setting it all depends on you know the situation for example but code switching those that I like the most is in your dreams like your sub-conscience for example when you are let's say you speak different languages right from my perspective you are not a good speaker of any language until you are able to dream about that to dream in French to dream in English dream in Germany then I can say I can speak German there is all of that I can explain to you in DC when I worked in a restaurant my first job in the US you know it was break time I sat down and then there were two French people you know I think they came to visit and they were talking about me I've had this experience too not knowing that I speak French not knowing that you spoke French no and to them they are like ok is he African-American or is he African and the woman was like oh look at his nose this guy this guy is natural here and then in one point you know they asked me where is the White House and I just wanted them to be in French so anyway what was their reaction no they were like no problem just go they were like you know there I could switch and just to make them feel better it's ok I have the humor to the situation I have the exact same situation because I'm a Spanish speaker I think again because of the biases or just not knowing I'm very fair so the fact that I would speak Spanish was kind of a shock to them I don't hear that it's kind of fun it can be fun and I think when I think of code switching too sometimes there's a sense of formality in some cultures I think of Vermont as a very informal place you know so I don't know the ways we dress the ways we communicate like you said certain language that we might use and that's true of everybody whether you're bicultural or not ok interesting the dreaming thing because I sometimes feel like I don't dream in a particular language like I'm not conscious of what language I'm even dreaming in pay attention pay attention you might be dreaming in different languages yeah it's almost like anyway that's another I feel like we can go off on a lot of tangents ok let's see perspective on partisanship and bias in media so it's hard not to talk about media nowadays and think about this and just the whole topic of partisanship as we talk about democracy and civic engagement some of our questions for media makers have been around these topics especially in the national media to what degree do these issues show up if they do in the information sources that reach people with a little less English or who come from different cultural backgrounds does the partisanship that we are conscious of sort of as people born and raised here and being English consumers of English language media does that come across or is that as present for people in the new American multicultural communities is it an awareness is it kind of a curiosity is it a problem how is it perceived if it is yeah that's an interesting question I don't know that much about it but I'm going to tell you I think I talked about it earlier about these media they have their own mission and also basically vision about what type of media they want to share out etc you know the printing sometimes they choose what to coat what to not coat about the person they interviewed personally I always have some time issues with reporters because we can talk about this and then what you when I read your article I'll call you to just say hey or you took me out of context or what are the important elements that I'm like I ask you to why you did not coat me on those for example but they all have their own stories to tell you know and sometimes this is just a matter of you understanding what to tell what to say yeah yeah and that's interesting because what they perceive as like oh this was so interesting what Ali said I'm going to quote this part and you might be like well that wasn't I don't think that was the important thing I thought this other thing was way more important but you didn't you know and so when is it biased or when is it just like oh that was really interesting or maybe that's something I don't want to bring attention to right like it can be both of those um uh somebody that we were just talking to was talking about the difference oh I know we were watching a previous interview that we did for this series and he just talked about the difference between um what's news and what's opinion you know and I think when we think of partisanship like that feels like something to many of us that has become such a part of people saying well that's not news or that should be news but actually it's not it's just opinion you know and I but it sounds like that's not something as present or as occupying of your thoughts on media and democracy necessarily as it is I mean yes sometimes basically because VT Digger for example has this you know section about commentaries anyone can write a commentary anyone right and at the same time they also have professional who can do investigative reporting they investigate they do research and then they report about something but those commentaries most of the time people perceive them as like it's investigative just because VT Digger printed it out I mean put it on their website which is completely not the right I can have an opinion about anything you know and sometimes you know especially about the issue about the police there were so many people who attacked me about in their own opinion but many people I tried to convey the message hey these are their opinions look at my voting record and do not judge me because of what perception of another person but I think in any other case people like us or anybody right who is new here you have to learn to make your own media your own news it's not because you can tell your story better than anyone anyone has their own stories to tell and I think learning to write learning to convey a message is always key because it's your opinion it's you you produce it and I think people can react trust it accept it or not yeah and do you feel so you touched on this a little bit earlier you were saying that seven days used to have a reporter that used to cover issues of particular relevance to our immigrant and from refugee communities are there things I don't know why that went away I don't know if you know but are there things like that that you think could make a difference whether it's CCTV or WCAX or Vermont Digger what are is that a particular action that media sources could be taking to better tell stories or more fully tell them or to increase access what other steps could the media community be taking yeah that report of seven days I think her name was Camelia Sarri I believe she was from Sri Lanka I believe you know she left she went back to her country of origin I don't know the reasons right but I think they could have found somebody else who could just have the new American births immigrant births in here because when you think about it 57% of the population growth in Chittenden County is composed of people from new American immigrant community right so I mean basically you think about the amount of houses that we buy here the cars we make the economy grow we're part of this society but all the media also need to play their role in making those people understand that the sense of belonging we all have to play an integral role you are here you have stories and we are news-outlet and your stories need to be shared out I mean I feel like for example what I was telling you about Ramadan is here nobody from me my story doesn't have any importance in this society right the sense of belonging we need to plant that seed not even for us but also for the future generations right and people feel free their cultures matter who they are matter their sexual orientation or whatever they are I think we need to be intentional all of this media news media need to be intentional in recognizing you know that the other yeah great let's see are there is there any before the last question is there anything else that you think is important for us to know regarding media, democracy or information access that we haven't already covered anything I haven't asked you about or that you think is a part of this topic and conversation I mean yes and I think also sometimes do not also absorb any media that's out there it can be from anybody do not absorb it all to just say this is true they have a story to tell to share right but you know I think it would be important those who are in the middle of a story also to hear from their perspective directly and not from the media and accept and trust that this person is like this or is not like this I think that's an important element to that people need to think about I know you're talking about the people that are creating the stories or like the media makers are you talking also about those of us who are consuming media and information to have some critical thinking about what we're absorbing exactly it's always important and you know sometimes if you pay attention to read an article there are a lot of corrections sometimes they come back and say oh the previous version had this but this version because they got called to correct this it was wrong I think do not consume everything and have a critical thinking especially in this day and age where things are shared so quickly or out of context and finally unless you know my colleagues may have other questions but is there anything that is giving you a sense of hope or optimism about what you're seeing related to civic engagement, media, information sharing other things giving you what do you think like highlights or things that are working well and there might not be you can say nope not right now that's okay I hope it's not the answer I mean I feel like I'm hopeful the more that I understand channel 17 CCTV channel 17 the more hopeful that I am that basically it's that power is not only at the discretion of just few people because this is a community oriented people can come here and produce and you know tell their story produce their own media I think I'm also hopeful that you as leaders your group decided to have this topic which is an important topic we always consume consume consume but you taking a step back to think about this who are we missing is this really I think you just having that aspect as well is very hopeful because each one of you are in different part of the system and I think like whatever you learn from here will serve you in what you do you know consensus about what you all that you have heard and try to have that lens as you move forward I think all of those are hope because you care people care yeah I hope that like you not only will it serve us in what we do but also in our ability to serve others like you said you know having a love of service that that will serve others as well if you like this and want to see more watch the rest of the series thank you for watching and please vote