 This is kind of a spicy topic and we'll try to sanitize the more controversial components But I think it's a discussion. That's interesting and I haven't commented on this I'm not sure if you have either but Nathan J Robinson of current affairs. He posted in article two articles This is spicy it is so the first article that he posted was isn't right wing populism just fascism And he kind of directly takes a shot at rising on the hill Over a book that I actually have Okay, and so I haven't read it yet. I bought it because I really like crystal ball I think she's sharp But part of the reason why I bought this is because apparently there's an explanation of what the new right is now my understanding Maybe this is too simplistic is that right wing populism? Isn't a thing like I have never Thought of populism in terms of right wing or left wing. It's just whatever is popular Mostly economic policy, right? Um, so I don't know what right wing populism means to me. I always thought if you're right wing populist That's usually you're just a fascist So I was hoping to kind of get an explanation and I haven't read it yet So maybe saga goes on to explain what he means by the new right and right wing populism But Nathan J robins robinsons argument basically is that He doesn't really lay that out and so right wing populism is essentially just Fascism because think about who we see as right wing quote-unquote populists, you know a gyre bull scenario. Yeah tucker carlson um, donald trump and they're all fascists. So the question is you know is um, right wing populism a thing and how does the left respond to that because his argument has kind of directed at crystal ball In the sense that he thinks that she's kind of enabling this type of fascism by one not challenging it And two by kind of sanitizing it right because Nathan j robinson admits that he agrees with what saga is saying 80 of the time But the thing is that you know, if you allow Yourself to just talk about discussions where you you know agree where if you narrow that parameters You're kind of not really getting the full sense of that person and how problematic they may be So for like an extreme example if I were to talk to david duke about just cats and food I'm sure that you know It'd be a little scary uh, because he scares me I don't like black cats Totally uh, no, like if we had a conversation about that, you know, it'd be benign It wouldn't I wouldn't know that he's a white supremacist We'd agree seemingly on everything But if we you know widened that scope and we started talking about Identity politics, uh, you know politics in general then it would be problematic So, you know the argument not to um Kind of put words in Nathan j robinson's mouth But what I took away from this is that crystal wall is kind of helping to present this Fake illusion of you know right wing populism when in actuality it's it's not a real thing It's just fascism and we shouldn't enable these people now. I don't know what the implication is I don't know if he thinks that like we should kick saga off of the hill I don't think that's what he's implying Maybe he just wants crystal ball to challenge him more But I thought that it was a thought provoking piece because this is something that I've kind of grappled with like I'm not sure how many people remember this but back in Is it 2018 or 2019 me and Kyle Kalinsky kind of had a similar discussion on the progressive voice show What about Joe Rogan, right? And you know, whether or not he is acceptable, you know Because I I take issue with his stance on trans rights and whatnot. Oh, absolutely. Um, so, you know, it's probably his most problematic thing Absolutely I kind of feel he's I'm not going to get too derailed with this But he's kind of a Rorschach test for whoever his guest is because I find when he has Cornell West on the show Uh, you will have just an incredible Elucidation on the history of socialism and you'll be in America and you'll be like this is a beautiful hour of my life I I I'm very happy I spent this time. He has been Shapiro on and he's a transphobic piece of shit And you know, well that that was that was a terrible hour and a half. I'll never get back, right? Yeah, it's kind of like a Dave Rubin, but not as bad as Dave Rubin like he pushes back sometimes like the Candace Oven's uh interview on climate change. That's a great example I think I even talked about that on my program, but you know, it's just a matter of like, how does the left respond? And I think that Kyle Kalinsky does make a really solid point in that, you know, if you think that people like Dave Rubin Uh, or excuse me, not Dave Rubin, but uh, Joe Rogan or crystal ball are in a way Inadvertently offering you a type of like pipeline to the alt right then, you know Having them, you know, um offer left perspectives could potentially be a pipeline out of the alt right as well So, you know, it's complicated and I think this is a really nuanced and somewhat messy subject And I wanted to get your take on this because I feel like you really have a solid understanding of the alt right And you know, how people kind of get trapped in that pipeline So, you know, what is your take on this is the left being a little bit too like Cancel culturally or do you think there's actually something there with Nathan j. Robinson's argument? So, um, I guess if we took it, what's the classical definition of fascism you you're basically combining economic populism, right? That's what Hitler was doing. So ideas that are very, uh, social in origin We're talking about socialized medicine things like that, for example with, uh, right wing or far right conservatism combined the two Right, I mean even far past. I'm not I'm not going to call the right wing as as far fascist as they were But so are are we seeing that in something like Tucker Carlson? I think even before Tucker Carlson, you were starting to see that with people like say Alex Jones Who was constantly talking about instead of, uh, I mean, they would usually have a couple of dog whistles here But it would talk about the globalists, right? It's the globalists and the elites and it's all of them right off in the corner or something like that He's he's talking about that and it's all it's all coded for, you know The international bankers and you know in brackets all that kind of stuff But they're constantly vilifying this idea of there is something external And I mean if you're on the left, you'll understand it It happens to be like there's no secret to any of this, uh, the the people who control the levers of power Happen to be the rich right the the the quote unquote elites We know who they are you have to look at the who's the fortune 500, right? We know who the billionaires are we know what they own. We know what assets they have We know the oil companies and all that kind of stuff We understand that but they will try to take that same idea because everyone experiences alienation, right? We're all everyone's Having trouble finding employment even worse now. It's cove in 40 40 million extra Americans unemployed But you've got this idea where everyone is experiencing this alienation and now we've got this section of the right That's tapping into those same kind of things and and selling them and repackaging them with Right-wing populism as well. That's what I would. Well, sorry. I know right-wing populism is a thing I agree with your statement there, right? But that's that's what I would say is quote unquote right-wing populism and in the case of crystal ball and You know during bernie sanders campaign. I was a huge fan of her and it was just it was really nice scene Maybe just like a mainstream sunday morning tea like good morning america style show that was actually talking about points with bernie sanders, right? Whereas now I cannot stand it like if I even if I hear that little jingle that Like I actually get like, you know a visceral like Fearful like I can fear my skin crawling because a I think it's come out now at this point. I think one of the biggest Producers or founders on the show happens to be deeply invested in the oil companies of the us and I've read a number of articles I think even the intercepted an article on this how the hill Exists to kind of sow dissemination between the progressive movement and the liberal movement of the united states So there might be an argument to there. I'm not going to go to tin foil hat I was just making fun of alex jones two seconds ago, right but But the idea then that we have we have this show in which she's starting to say and I noticed She was saying this a lot before she got called out on it that tucker carlson is right about this And it usually starts with that preface, right? Like I just want to say this. He's an awful person All right. He's a white nationalist. We get it. He's a mouthpiece But he's not wrong about blank and there seem to be a lot of those segments, right? And tucker was actually right about this tucker's right about this And yes, he's a bad person, but it's true that there is these global elites that control the levers of power And into crystal ball. I'm sure she thinks that it's it's the rich I'm sure she thinks that it's you know, again, the the elites actually are who the elites are Right, the like I said the the millionaires the billionaires who control most of the levers of power in the united states But you can't repackage what tucker says for the left That's where the danger comes in and that's what I would agree with this idea And maybe that is you know, I've read nathan j robinson's article I haven't read the book that you have in your hands, but that that's where I agree with nathan But you can't normalize tucker and his ideas you have to consistently call them out for what they are because otherwise It's very insidious Yeah, and one of the issues that nathan j robinson also brings up is that there's this um explicit assumption in the book that it would be beneficial for the left if we teamed up with the right If the populist left and the populist right kind of form this, you know economic alliance Then we can get a lot of things done and I think that that is something that I unequivocally reject Because I think that you know, if you want to form a coalition that makes sense. We need a rainbow coalition I think that fred hampton kind of he led the way on that, you know But it has to be an anti-racist coalition because you can't disaggregate You know the race issues from the class issues So you can't throw people of color and trans people under a bus and say well We're gonna team up with them for these economic issues But you're gonna have to wait by the side like it doesn't work that way because the these things are inextricably linked So that's one of the things that you know had I read the book I would have also been turned off by that because I absolutely don't like this notion of teaming up with You know the populist right because I don't think that there is a populist, right? And I I'm glad that you brought up the tech across the thing like he's a bad person But like that still normalizes someone who is very clearly a white supremacist and you know by Trying to point out the good point that he makes and since he's so nefarious You know, it's great that he made a good point, you know positive reinforcement Sure, I believe in positive reinforcement But this is an actor who is very intelligent who knows exactly what he's doing You know, he throws you a couple of crumbs with regard to economic issues But if you accept what he what he has once he gets you in Then you're pulled into a very nefarious explicitly white supremacist agenda And maybe you know, he doesn't convince you right away But as you listen to him more because you were hooked by his economic policy statements Well, then maybe you know, you start opening your mind a little bit more to white supremacy So I think it's it's a dangerous path to go down and I think that there really is like I don't want to say that you know The the show the rising is awful because I also watched it a lot, you know during the primaries But I think that we do have to be careful as lefties to not allow Snakes like, you know, Tucker Carlson to be legitimized by us, you know, either wittingly or unwittingly And it like part of it is I feel like it should be just on its face Laughable because you have sagar and jetty who's the co-host of the hill rising He's a trump supporter and he rails against neoliberal democrats But trump is a neoliberal like he ran as a populist, but he governs as a neoliberal So how do you not abandon people who aren't living up to your populist principles? So to me, it seems like a Trojan horse to you know, the the alt right and that's why I think that there is something To you know, Nathan j. Robinson's point here, but I I don't want to discount, you know She's not the only one making that critique either by the way It hasn't just been coming from Nathan j. Robinson I've seen a lot of other figures on the left and I'm not just in relation to crystals in particular But this is the idea of the left starting to embrace elements of that right-wing populism Totally whatever you want to say, you know quote-quote right-wing populism Yeah, and I think we have to reject it and we have to be very vocal about it because you know, if you give them an inch They take a mile because they are very very Um strategic and they're savvy like people nowadays. You're not going to find someone just say, hey guys I'm a nazi. Here's a swastika like they use code words like I Exactly exactly. So I mean you have to you have to not get duped by them in other words But at the same time, you know, I want to bring up Kyle Kalinsky who made a good response video to this You know to where he says, you know, you you have to acknowledge that the average like layperson the normies They're not going to necessarily be as keen to these things and by criticizing people like crystal ball It seems like we're being like overly cancely or whatever. So it's it's tough I I feel like we're walking a fine line, but there's so much To cancel her like I like I don't really say I'm not a cancel culture person in general because I don't think it works I don't think there's such a thing. Uh, I I think I think she has I think she she she was aware of it as well Because she apologized she she issued a video or sorry I don't know if she directly apologized, but it was more of a just like I know what everyone's saying I've seen the I've read the articles and everything and to this extent like I am not praising Tucker Carlson He's a horrible person. He's a white nationalist. Let's like, you know, get that out You know, that's it's a non-starter kind of thing Yeah, and I will say just for the record. I I like crystal ball I'm not assuming like malintent in criticizing because I I've also done horrible things On my channel, you know, it's it's all about growing right where human beings were imperfect Like I've platformed ha goodman and I kind of like attribute my channel to his success in a way And now he's a mega chat So that's something that I really think about like how am I vetting these people who I bring on my channel and whatnot You know You know You know this you know the thing thing You're getting nervous man, man