 Hi, Lucas, host of Hawaii Is My Main Land. I hope you caught last week's show with my guest host from the Sierra Club, Jody Malinowski, talking about dealing with overcrowding and dangerous conditions on Oahu's hiking trails. If you didn't, search YouTube for Think Tech Hawaii, Hawaii Is My Main Land. Our shows are also available as podcasts on iTunes. One of the issues I've been following is the Mauna Kea 30-meter telescope project. A few months ago, I interviewed attorney Euclain Aluli, who represented the Hawaiian Environmental Alliance, Kehea. That show is also on YouTube. This week, my guest is Ikai Kahasi, editor-in-chief and publisher of both Summit Magazine and the Hawaiian Independent. But that's not enough for this father of three. He's also a board member of Kehea and a musician for an Afro-Bang, which is the last time I see him. So he's going to help us navigate this week's decision by hearing officer Ricky May Amano in the case. Welcome, Ikai Kahasi. Thank you. I'll try my best. So this is something that you as a board member of Kehea, you want to just talk a little bit about what Kehea has been doing in this case and what this case means. Sure. So Kehea has been, I would say, an early proponent of a more holistic and a smarter approach to Mauna Kea to the management of our mountain. But I just want to be clear that people have been talking about and been concerned about the development on Mauna Kea since the 1970s. Many groups and environmental organizations have been raising concerns ever since the first batch of telescopes were being developed on the mountain. And we also have laws. We live in a community that has actually the rule of law in theory, and those laws prohibit this kind of development in a conservation zone. So our job as Kehea has been holding the state accountable, holding these institutions accountable, and ensuring that our laws are upheld. Thank you for framing it that way. There's a lot of people who like to split this baby around science. It's really not helpful. No, it's not. Yeah. I know that Kehea has certainly been a heavy user of science in the case. And as a matter of fact, our background is from the Hui Mauna Kea report on the aspects of Mauna Kea that have not been in compliance over the years, as you said, and the graphic is around the view planes that have been distorted by the 13 observatories that are there now. Right, right, right. Okay, so this week was a big deal. It was. Actually, I should say it was the latest in a series of, I think it's important to always keep things in context. It's very easy, I think, for people who are deeply concerned about the life and health of our Mauna, for them to feel depressed or bummed out about the decision. But we've been here for thousands of years. We will continue to be here for thousands of years. And so this is just another day in an existence which has its ups and downs. You know, there's that saying, it's in a wonderful Kekuhi Kanhele song, Helau Kapuuhi Mauna Kaehona, talking about how Hilo is full of hilltops and ravines, you know, there's ups and downs. And this is just a down. But we have a long movement. We have a long history here and an incredible future. So we were going to show a couple of the hats that you wear very briefly, just to put you in context. One is that you're a publisher of a magazine, a physical magazine, Cement, which is also one. Yeah, we're going retro. And I love that it's un-glossy. It's very hip, but it's un-glossy. Thank you. Well done. Well, you know, glossy costs more. I'm just kidding. It doesn't actually. No, so, all right. The name is, sort of ironically, it's named Summit. And a friend of mine asked me when we launched the magazine a couple of years ago, is this a magazine about Mauna Kanhele? I said, no, no, no. This is a magazine that actually, so the name comes from the motto of Queen Kapiolani, which is to strive for the summit, Kulia Ikunu'u. And it's, you know, she said that in a time when Hawaii was in many ways in its ascendancy. So, you know, we were, we had just recently become the most literate country on the planet. Yeah, 80%. Right? Woo-hoo. No, no, no, no. Not 80%. 100%. We had universal literacy. Wow. Okay. Sorry. No, that's fine. 80% is a good number, too. I mean, the United States would love to be 80% as well. Right? Today? Yeah. No, but. Hawaii would love to be 80% today. Yeah, I mean, we've really, we've really, we've pretty, you know, gone pretty far down since our peaks in the 19th century. And part of what I, the reason I wanted to start this magazine was to kind of raise expectations for what we can think about ourselves. And I think part of what we're dealing with in this mountaineer issue is proponents of the development of the telescopes on, on the mountain are saying that we need this telescope in order to, in order to bring science to our, to our keiki in order to elevate our economy and to bring more money into our community. And I think actually we need to start with just believing in ourselves. That's, that's a critical precursor to actual economic and scientific and political achievement. We need to have some love for ourselves as a people in this place. I think that that is one of the most beautiful things about this whole TMT issue. I hope it doesn't get built as currently planned under the, the current conditions. But even if it does, and hopefully that will only be according to those 40 rules that have come down, what it has done for the Hawaiian community. You sent me some beautiful pictures that I were taken of the protests and kind of embodies that, that what you were saying, you know, that for the, maybe not for the first time, but in, in, in recent history, the amount of just great love and passion for the mountain and the culture have really come through in this case. So yeah, it's a case about the Mauna Kea, but it's more than that. Exactly. A lot of the photos that I think you might be showing on your screen were taken by a Maori photographer who was visiting Hawaii during these protests. His name is Te Rafitiroa Bosch. And, and he was there with the, with a lot of our family and friends who were there on the mountain to, you know, through several very tumultuous days, very important days in which the state of Hawaii decided to bring a lot of, of its dole care enforcement officers to, you know, to treat the defenders of the mountain as if they were there illegally. And so you, we see Kahoukahi Konoha being arrested here in this photo. And, you know, I think that our state government made very difficult, ultimately, the wrong decision in pursuing those arrests. And I think in a lot of ways what we have now with this decision by Judge Amano is it's putting, it's going to put the ball back into a political court, you know. It's no longer, you know, it's been sort of taken out of this kind of quasi-judicial proceeding at the borderline and after resources and put, put back into a political question. Which is ultimately. What is that, what is the political question? I would say that the issue facing Governor Ege is, do we, does he decide to, to pursue development of TMT on Mauna Kea in spite of the tremendous opposition that it, it has within the native Hawaiian community. And it's a very difficult decision and I empathize with his position because, you know, for decades native Hawaiians have been regarded and I would say sort of disregarded in terms of our role politically within our own, within our homeland. We're the founding 20 percent of this community that we call Hawai'i, but we're often sort of ignored and we're relegated to either homelessness or to being the posters for the tourist industry. Our language and culture has been used to make millions of dollars for other people, not for us. And so it's very conventional I would say to disregard native Hawaiians and our knowledge and our history and our culture. A courageous governor would not do that. He would actually say, you know, it's actually in our best interest long term to listen to our, to listen to the Democratic voice coming out of these youth, out of the old PO. They're clearly saying that they don't want this. A smart courageous governor would listen to his people and not push this project through. And I'm hoping that that's what the governor decides to do. He should also recognize that native Hawaiians are the fastest growing ethnic group within Hawai'i and that ethnic group is going to, you know, those young kids are going to grow up and they're going to vote and they're going to take jobs. They're going to take professorships. They're going to become doctors and lawyers. This is a group that has been here forever and is only going to get stronger. So disregarding those voices would be a mistake, I think, politically. So you brought up being professors. You yourself have been a professor. I just want to... No, no, no, no. No? I thought I read that on you. Add to the faculty. Thank you very much. Okay, okay. All right, all right. But you're very well. You're a graduate of U-H. I am. Yeah, I'm proud of you. Yeah, and so how do you see the role that U-H has played in this? Ah, it's a good question. You know, it reminds me several years ago. There was another... I guess it's the last telescope to be developed on the camera before TNT. Is that a kek? It might have been kek. Possibly, I can't remember. But there was a major protest at the university. It was around the same time as the Rice v. Kaitano decision and I believe Millie Lenny Trask was calling for massive civil disobedience and it was just that coincidentally that the observatory came up on the board of trustees, you know, docket, their agenda for trustee meeting. I'm sorry, not the trustees, board of regents for the university. And there was a huge protest at the university. The state overreacted or, you know, they overreacted. They called out SWAT team and Kalei Koa, Kalei who was also arrested on the TNT protest on monarchy. They arrested him at the board of regents meeting. And you know, I just think about the ways in which the university keeps on pushing these things through. And I understand the appeal of these sorts of projects. You know, there is a lot of money at stake. And I think probably there hasn't actually been as much money previously. I think TNT is sort of unique in that there's actually cash that's being offered to the state of Hawaii and to the university to move forward with TNT. So let's not get too far off into the economic, but let's stay with the political. So, or the legal actually. So right now where we are, we have the hearing officer, Amano has recommended that the conditional use permit or CDUP, I forget what it stands for, but Conservation District Use Permit has recommended that they move forward with that. So what's the next step? So my understanding, and I should say I'm not an attorney. There are real attorneys on the Kalei board. I am not one of them. So I'm not even sure that CDP actually stands for Conservation District Use Permit, but I think it does. Sounds right to me. If it doesn't, it should. But there we go. Right. But my understanding is that the next step is that on September 20th, the Board of Land and Natural Resources will have a hearing in Hilo to, I guess, to weigh and either go with Judge Amano's decision or to not. So the board itself could decide not to. They absolutely could. Okay. And your recommendation as for concern citizens to get involved is to get their voices heard. Is what? Is there any place to particularly address this? I would say two things actually. I'm a big believer in the importance of conversation, of people staying in communication. And one of the deleterious effects of things like Facebook is that we tend to live in our own bubbles, which is why I don't really go to Facebook anymore. But I think it's very valuable to stay engaged with people who think differently than you. So I would encourage people who currently support the TMT to talk to Google that oppose it and vice versa. So that that's one thing that I think we should always be doing as you know, citizens in a democratic society. But in terms of this particular, this particular issue, I would recommend that that people contact the governor's office. And I know that it's not technically on his desk, you know, it's not sitting on his desk today, but it very well maybe 300 pages of it. That's a lot of fun. But you know, sort of in terms of the procedure, right? It is in the jurisdiction of the Board of Land and Natural Resources. So it makes sense to call Suzanne case who is the chair of the board. But at the end of the day, the BLNR is appointed by the governor. And we live in a state where the governor has a lot of power. The governor points to the Department of Education, the Board of Education appoints the Board of Land and Natural Resources appoints the Board of Regents of University. So ultimately, it feeds back to the governor. Okay, so that's before we go to a break, make a note. Write or call Suzanne case and Department of Land and Natural Resources and Governor Igay and let him know. And we'll be right back. Welcome back to Hawaii is my mainland. Today Ikeika Hase is in the think tech studio with me to talk about the new decision by Riki May Amano in the contested case hearing about the Mauna Kea TMT. So Ikeika had just suggested that if we feel strongly about it one way or another, we should let Governor Igay know that. And he was my first phone call. And I want to remind our readers and our viewers, listeners, listeners that it's not the Mauna Kea TMT, at least not yet. It is the TMT and the TMT doesn't have to be on Mauna Kea, right? I mean, that's something to remember is that I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that the TMT is good for humanity, that it's good for scientific advancement of all people. That doesn't mean that it has to be on Mauna Kea and there's apparently there's a secondary site, an alternative site that actually wants the TMT that doesn't have the sort of cleavages and divisions within its own community that we have here. You know, we clearly are not in agreement about the TMT being located on Mauna Kea. So I just want to make sure that we remember that bracket that on. That's a really good way of holding it. So it's not like it's it's inherently bad or anything like that. I mean, that kind of science has a place, but it doesn't It's just against our laws. That's all. And the relationship between the Hawaiian community and the environmental community because it really goes beyond the Hawaiian community. I know plenty of people who aren't Hawaiians who don't like what's happened up on on Mauna Kea. Right. Yeah, environmentally it's it's just irresponsible. And conversely, there are many Hawaiians who support Absolutely. the TMT in Mauna Kea, right? Absolutely. One of the greatest discussions online has been in the notes of the video of the show I did with Euclina Luli about that and actually some sharing of information. So as you said about the discussion, it will be interesting to see what this one generates to because it is important to listen as as as painful as it may be. It's critical that we listen to the voices that say, Oh, well, we need this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. We have to be we have to right or to do a better job of listening. And I think we need to recognize that Hawaii is an island, but that doesn't mean that we're alone. You know, we exist as part of a global society and within that society, there might be other places which are better suited for the TMT and just because there are some people here who believe that it is to their advantage or even to our advantage to have it here that still does not mean that it should be here. There is clearly a strong segment of our community which I strongly identify with that doesn't want it. And there are laws which say that we shouldn't be putting them on care. So I think part of the thing that isn't always front and center on this is is but you brought it up first. Is this long since the first observatory was built up there in 1968 just over the decades that that this disregard for the laws has just been painful. It's like at some point you go, why should we believe it's going to be any different this time? What has changed? Yeah, I mean, I want to call one of my attorney friends right now, but I believe that the intention was for there to be one telescope on Mauna Kea. We now have 13 and if the TMT moves forward, it would be 14 telescopes on Mauna Kea. And some of them are supposed to have been dismantled and removed and those promises those agreements were not kept. I want to say agreements because they were agreements. So one of the interesting things for me reading, I did not read the 300 pages. Probably you haven't had enough time to do that too. I read a few. Well, I skipped right to page 260. Oh, yeah, my favorite page. Where the decision started and then the 40 conditions that if must be met, if the project is allowed to go forward. And as I was reading these 40 conditions, I thought, wow, how do we get these conditions met without building TMT? Because most of them are about things that should have been done. Right. I believe earlier up in there number one or two was we need to follow the laws. Yes, yes. Great idea. Love that idea. There we go. Yeah, follow the laws. Why not? For a change. And then there were some interesting ones like number 10, which says providing a million dollars annually adjusted for inflation for community benefits package, which will commence with the construction and continue through the term of the sublease. The package will be administered via the Hawaii Island new knowledge fund born of advisors. Do you know anything about that? I hadn't ever heard of it. I oppose new knowledge. I don't know what they're talking about. I'm joking. No, no. So I believe that that is something that the that the TMT corporation has offered that they will pay a one million dollar community benefits package, which depending on on how you think about the economics is either generous or or not really. Yeah, sort of. Yeah. We've all seen big budgets that are for a million dollars and when it really comes down to who gets paid what doesn't actually stay. I mean our Hawaii is a GDP of 78 billion dollars. That's how big our economy is 78 billion dollars. So one million dollars a year is really a very small amount and and I appreciate you know just thinking about the island of Hawaii. You know, it's an island that in many ways is suffering from from sort of an economic depression. You know, it doesn't have enough doctors to to take care of Medicare patients. You know, there's there's a lot of systemic problems on on the big island. The one million dollars can go far in some, you know, in some aspects in some ways. But it's not enough and it also shouldn't be. I think it would be incorrect for us to to regard it as sort of a savior as a oh gosh, that would be no and I didn't mean it that way. Yeah, and then the thing about the jobs always comes up and I acknowledge that they're critically needed in that community. Good jobs, but we don't have any way at this point when they say we will hire locally. What does that mean actually? Who's a local? Okay, that's a good question. So all those those jobs, it sounds like it's great that they're coming to Hawaii, but but they may not. So I just felt like this list. There was so many possible really good things, but the devil's in the details. And is there any sense of how do we get more accountability? I would say that I worry when when things come across our collective agenda, you know, rail, you know, I don't know a new college campus, a telescope and the and the benefits start to include things which are really secondary tertiary to the project itself. If we are going to do this, we should do it for the scientific advancement that it affords, you know, us, our people. But we shouldn't be doing it as a jobs project. That's the wrong reason to do this particular thing, particularly given all the opposition to it from our community. Okay, so in the remaining two minutes, that's just enough time. Can you can you paint a picture of what you would like to see happen at this point? Is there or or would you rather make prognosticate? Whatever more fun for you, Ikeika. Well, I think to prognosticate on a, you know, on a best fit curve, you know, looking at how things have gone in our in our town would probably be a bummer for most of the people who love the mountain and want to see it not have the TMT. Just the way that politics usually happens isn't is not good. But, you know, I do believe that Governor Ike is an honorable man and I think that he has the potential to be a courageous man. And with that said, I think that he could very well say, you know, my people are divided and we're not going to move forward. There are better places on this planet for this telescope. There's places where they want this telescope and we should let them have it. And by the way, the state of Hawaii is also going to make good on all the agreements it's made over the last 40 years. That's number 41. We don't have to build. We don't have to build it to have those promises be kept. Right. All right. Thanks so much Ike for coming to think tech and spending a little time. I hope it's not the last time I see you. I'm sure it won't.