 This is Alex Kashuja talking to you, sex researcher Michael Bailey and culture. Along with race, of course, and those are the big two, I would guess. And how did we get from there to here? Well, I'm not sure that I have any theory of that, but I could probably speculate a bit. But I do want to clarify something. You said that if you search, you find these little websites about how evil. Those are not little websites, those are big websites. I inspired quite the resurrection of complete websites trying to basically deliberate how evil a person I am and how wrong I am. So, yes, and I think they're still there for people who want to fight. Yeah, I mean, there's obviously kind of a rundown of all your crimes and it is interesting to see how much energy's been poured into this. It's about as early unconvincing as the title, the tagline that you're the most... We're all vulnerable, but we're all vulnerable in different ways. And Steve Saylor says of all the groups that he's tangled with, the most vicious are a certain subset, okay? A minority, not all, not even most, but a minority of male to female transsexuals. He says they have fought back harder than any other group of which he's aware. Just exologists of history. Sounds extremely empirically testable. Yeah, they've put up websites that are calling this guy Michael Bailey the most unethical sexologist in history. I mean, I think that the main problem that these activists have with you is, correct me if I'm wrong here, it's the fact that you've been advocating in a way this kind of theory of kind of auto-ganophilia, of filia, and there's kind of a taxonomy of transsexualism, especially male transsexualism, that is not accepted by the current more high-powered members of the transsexual community. So they would like this type of research, this type of knowledge to not be common knowledge. Is that correct? That is absolutely correct. And if you would like, I could spend a little time explaining the ideas that, so auto-ganophilia is a paraphernalia, which is a sexual interest, and it's quite unusual. It's hard for many people to understand. It is a man's sexual arousal by the idea or fantasy that he is a woman or possesses a woman's body or the activity of irritating the woman by cross-dressing. And auto-ganophilia is one of the two main motivations why natal males, that is people born male, have transition to women. The other being very feminine homosexuality. So Ray Blanchard is the scientist. He's also a psychologist who came up with this two types theory. And I knew Ray, I know Ray, Ray's a friend, but I knew Ray for several years before I learned about his theory, and I had already been interested in transsexualism and I had already been saying things about transsexualism. And I was frankly embarrassed when I learned about the theory that I didn't know about it, because I was a scholar and alleged, or anyway, of sexuality. And auto-ganophilia is completely different than most people understand transsexualism, which was, transsexualism was the word that we were working with until fairly recently when it's become, for some reason, politically incorrect, which means I will keep using it. Transsexualism is the word for people who want to change sex. So an auto-ganophilic transsexual is a person born male who typically discovers during adolescence that they're really sexually aroused by the activity of putting on panties, raw laundry. Okay, and just for this theory, all right, because it kind of denied the narrative that they always felt like they were a woman. Just for this guy propounding this theory, I had all these transsexuals have done everything they can to try to make his life miserable. They're generally looking at themselves in a mirror and typically masturbating. Nobody teaches them this, they discover it on their own, and a subset of them become adult cross-dressers. They may even like to go out in public, rest as a woman, and a subset of them will transition. They will actually get medical treatment to become trans women. These people are all attracted to women, they're not attracted to men. You can think of auto-ganophilia as inverted heterosexuality for some reason, and these people, the external attraction to a woman gets... Okay, so according to his theory, that those transsexuals who don't act feminine, but this is why the trans make that trans journey from male to female, not because they've always been feminine or felt like a girl, it's because they've always had a fetish of themselves, cross-dressing or dressing in women's clothing and essentially having sex with themselves. Inverted inside, their primary attraction is to the idea of themselves as a woman. And the imagery that they like and what they might put on themselves is analogous to what a straight man likes in terms of, I guess this is dating me, like a playboy or a penthouse, a very sexualized woman wearing lingerie and a garter belt and so on. Yeah, none of these women, the trans women are very fashionable, the kind of older in life, auto-ganophilia type, they all look a little bit kooky from my female perspective, but yeah. Yeah, so I said before there are two types and I should say a little about the other type, which Ray Blanchard called a homosexual, male to female, transsexual. And it's a little confusing because homosexual, what does that mean? It's homosexual with respect to their natal sex. So they were born male, they like men. They like men only. They have no interest at all in women. Any male to female, transsexual, with any interest sexually in a woman is not this type. And they are feminine from early on childhood. These are the little boys who say if they wanna be girls, they are dressing as girls as four years old and so on. They are just effortlessly and extremely feminine and they do not exhibit auto-ganophilia at all. They are not sexually aroused by cross-dressing. They cross-dress because they like girls things and they like women's things and they feel more comfortable as women. I knew transsexuals of both types and I think that that enabled me to write this book. I think most people, if they know any transsexuals, they know only one type and unless somebody is in the gay community, deep in the gay community, they probably know auto-ganophilic transsexuals who are more common in the West anyway. That's interesting, that's auto-ganophilic, all right? So apparently that's the most common type of transsexual in the West, right? It's not that they've always been feminine, you know, I love feminine things but they love seeing themselves, you know, dressing up in women's clothing. Okay, here's some more from this conversation here with Michael Bailey. Community of pedophiles who are known to be pedophiles. I think that they're mainly wanting to just support each other and be left alone and believe me, there are people... So he's talking about people with pedophilic instincts but to, you know, don't act on them. That they form communities to, you know, help each other and behave in a pro-social way. Trying to harm them as a community, which I see as very unfortunate. Again, I think that we should... There's stigma against harming children and we should keep that. I'm not sure stigma against attraction that children per se can make any difference because I think whether a male is gonna be sexually attracted to children or not is determined by... Right, any man with a sex drive is gonna have all sorts of impulses that are socially unacceptable. All right, so to be a man, you have all sorts of impulses outside of the sexual realm that are socially unacceptable. And I'm sure women do too. So a traditional conservative view of life, I think better equips you for dealing with these things because you understand that, you know, everyone has all sorts of impulses that are destructive, self-destructive, destructive to other people, anti-social, you know, criminal against God's will. I hope you want to phrase it. And I want to bring a dilemma up to you and I want to do it as sensitively as I can. So give me a moment. I know you've recently had a child. So, but I don't want to talk about your child. Let's talk about a mother who has a son that she raised and he's kind of a good son. She loves him and it turns out that adolescents, he discovers he's attracted to children. Every pedophile in the world had a mother and I'm pretty sure every pedophile in the world had a mother who didn't want him to be a pedophile. What would she want for this son? Would she want him to be demonized and set off from society? She surely wouldn't want him to act on his feelings or would she want him to be helped in the best way possible? There's no help that will make him not attracted to children. It's just, you know, people try, we don't know how to do it. Some day it might involve some kind of brain surgery but we don't know how to do it. Your example about sex drive reduction castration, chemical castration, that can help somebody who has, who's at risk? Like my first introduction to this topic was that I was an expert witness for a pedophile who had actually molested two girls by using a toy gun to get them into his car to touch his penis. And then he himself chose to be surgically castrated which I thought was a good idea for him. But I was for a while thinking that that would be a general intervention for pedophiles but the more I've learned by studying these guys, the more I've recognized that many of them don't need that. They're fine, they're not gonna molest children, they're not tempted enough. Yeah, I mean, if there's a reliable measure of not tempted enough, you know, and that's, you know, from proven time and again, I might take that instead of, but yeah, you know, I personally am not averse to using whatever social tools or even, you know. Every human being has all sorts of impulses that could be horribly destructive, right? It's not like that pedophiles are the one group with horrible impulses that we need to be on the alert for. Like everybody contains the capacity to do massive amounts of harm. Just think about the person who's carelessly driving and so then as a result, you know, the 10,000 people are significantly late to work because of his careless driving. So it's not like, you know, pedophiles are this one category of evil. Geological tools to solve this problem, but it is a problem and there is also a little bit of hysteria now related to pedophilia and I can already hear somebody is speaking. No, there's not enough hysteria. There's a little bit in the sense that it feels to me like it's the last acceptable boundary. We have a culture of consent and because all boundaries are off you, you have these last little ruins of a kind of a virtuous society and the age of consent is an important red line that people on the left, people on the right seem to always converge on to kind of hold on in the consent culture that, you know, it's the last vestige of something solid and it always comes back to, you know, age gap or the discussions, you know, how big should the age gap be? All sorts of little negotiations around this red line seem to be the what's going on in discourse now. So, You're young, so you don't remember. Maybe you've heard or read about it, but back in the 1990s, we have general epidemic that I think was actually larger and more harmful than the ROGD epidemic was. The epidemic of recovered memories of sexual abuse and associated smaller epidemic. So hysterical opposition to a horrible thing like pedophilia can do tremendous harm, such as the false memory movement that Michael Bailey is talking about here. So just because you're convinced you're fighting on the side of the angels, you're fighting against the demons, doesn't mean that you're actually gonna be doing good. I have multiple personalities as well. These were typically women in therapy who came to believe during therapy that their fathers typically had molested them over years. When they had never remembered this, they'd never thought this until they went into therapy. I personally know someone like that. You know, up to this day, she maintains it, but just exactly recovered memory type thing. Yeah, these memories are false and have run many a family. And I think that they are a result of hysteria. Dennis Prager makes the point that the rape of a name can often be just as bad, if not worse than a real rape. And so the people, largely women, behind the false memory movement, the recovered memory movement, like, God, they've done so much harm. Better not be seeing any snakes around here. So every time like I hear a rustling in the bush, I'm not happy about related to pedophilia and child molestation. There have been other, there have been people sent to prison, they're innocent, there have been people put on trial. There have been, you know, we must remember as a society that, you know, counting you, whatever America does, it's gonna get to you eventually. Many of people have been harmed by this hysteria about childhood sexual violence. And I think more people have been harmed than protected by it actually. But of course, that's a, I guess, a discussion to be had, and this probably takes us too far off track. Yeah, I mean, it's a sad thing because I, you know, you can feel in the discourse and when you're talking to people that there are certain areas that are off limits and a large part of the discussion around pedophilia is off limits. And like I said, in a way I understand it because, you know, to bring it back into the esoteric, I feel like a lot of these things, you know, if they're invoked too much, if they're talked about too much, they kind of, they have a way of being sucked into the discourse and self-replicating in a way, you know, there's a lot of talk in kind of the more esoteric corners of the right wing about demonic possession, about demons and things like that. And some of these things feel like they have some of that quality that, you know, you're invoking these dark and terrible things. And, you know, like I said, as a mother, sometimes it's not necessarily, I don't want to delve into this, but as a sex-reached literature and people in your field, I think should and that is your role. And, you know, it should be very much open to, to study because it's... Yeah, moral panics, as the chat says, are frequently, you know, worse than whatever the immoral behavior is that they're freaking out about. Now, definitely don't want to get tumbling down that mountain here. Oh, bloody hell.