 Okay, we're back with live four o'clock rock on a Wednesday and you know what that means Hawaii the state of clean energy Wednesday, yeah courtesy the Hawaii energy policy forum and guess what Sharon Moriwaki the co-chair of the Hawaii energy policy forum is right here in red For Christmas for Christmas Welcome Sharon. Nice to have you and be with you and our special show tonight is what's on the legislative horizon for energy Was representative Nicole Lowen and she is from the district 6 in Kailua Kona and a whole Lua law in the big island Yeah, she's the vice chair vice chair house energy and house energy committee environment With Chris Lee Welcome to the show Nicole. Nice to have you with us. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Hi everyone So here we are and it's um, you know the end of the year It's end of the year is you know traditionally a time to reflect back and also to with trepidation Reflect forward. This is this is a year where we have a lot of trepidation on the federal level by me But the question is you know, how we've been doing an energy in 2016 here in Hawaii and So from the point of view of the house Committee on environment and energy has how does it look from your point of view? How did we do? What did we do? In the session, you know this past spring, Nicole Well last session, I think there was a lot of focus on waiting to see what was going to happen with next era and You know, there were a few measures that we had on the table We thought we're maybe going to move forward that fell through at the last minute So although there were some little things that that we did move through I feel like Compared to years before that when we made some much bigger And bolder steps last year was a little bit of a quieter year But I think that means we're ready to come back this year and really Tackle some of the bigger questions. Is there something that was left on the table last year that you want to take forward? Or is it going to be new stuff that will be looking at this this coming session Well, hopefully some of both. I mean, of course, I'm vice chair. It'll be up to the chairs in large part what they want to consider but You know, I think some of the things we looked at last Session that I'd like to consider again would be the performance-based rate making We've had for several years now measures introduced to look at providing incentives for energy storage So whether that's rebates or tax credits, so I'd like to Look at that and I think then also there'll be some new things on the table as well And as well as looking back at you know, even even further back We have some things I'd like to go back and look at how we can You know do some fixes and make them work a little better. For example, we have the gems program which we're still kind of struggling to get up and running and Community solar as well is still kind of pending really being implemented So I think we could go back and examine some of what's happening with those as well You know, it strikes me talking before the show about You know sort of the dampening effect that the next era deal had Just hanging over all of us for you know, 18 months And I think it had it probably had an effect on the legislature. Don't you think it probably had an effect on The energy committees in the legislature and the legislative view of it everybody am I right everybody was like waiting to see what would happen and You know not knowing just not not having any certainty about the what the future would look like am I right about that? Yeah, I mean I think everyone had different points of view on what they wanted to see happen I had personally a lot of concerns about next era and I think Big Island has had a lot of discussion the island that you know My district is in a lot of discussion about the potential for maybe an energy cooperative or examining some alternative utility Business structures, and I think now that we know Next year is off the table that we can move forward with just looking into that a little further and exploring that option And seeing if it would be to the benefit of great peers Can we take a moment and dwell on the big island just for a minute? Somebody somebody said to me earlier today, you know, the big island is really different than the rest of the state Some people think it's a different country It has a different culture a different way of looking at things certainly the politics are different You know in the culture, you know the way people see things in general Different than the other islands certainly different than a walk who would you get a comment on that as a representative from the big island? Nicole, I mean I think every place has its own uniqueness I you know I represent a district in West Hawaii and I sometimes joke a little bit like the Wild West Hawaii has its own set of unique qualities compared to the mainland and You know people in my district are passionate about issues and On both ends of the spectrum. So, you know, I think every even every district on big island is a little bit different So for me, it's kind of hard to speak in in generalities about that. Yeah interesting so The other thing is what you know, what what do you sense from your constituents about what they want to see? I mean how strong for example, are they on renewables? How do they feel about geothermal because that's a mixed bag question, I think How do they feel about other renewables? How do they feel about? You know HIEC, you know the the other model that Marco Mangelsdorf has suggested What's the sense of the big island because I think would be different than the sense of people that you ask on the street here Yeah, that's a lot of questions. So I might have to you might have to remind me of them a little in a little bit, but um You know, I think the energy issues are really important to people in my district when I first ran for office It was one of the top things I would hear about when I was out knocking on doors And at that time it was primarily about, you know lowering rates because they were so high and you know, they really haven't Gone down that much, but I think there's at least been some leveling And people are really strong on renewable energy as well I mean we have especially in West white a really ideal environment to put solar on your rooftop So when you know, the PUC came out with their decision last year that basically did away with net metering there was a really strong reaction to that and I think also there was there's been a lot of support from what I can hear and actually did a A very unscientific survey of my constituents with a postcard that I mailed out and I think it came back Almost 80% it was due to support You know the idea of an energy cooperative, I think it was almost 80% interesting and I Think it's yeah, it's a little bit. It is and so geothermal that was the last one of the if I don't know if I touched All the points you mentioned, but yeah, geothermal is controversial I think that it is Clear that it's not compatible. It's not a compatible use with residential neighborhoods and what's happened over in Puna hasn't Been smooth sailing and I think you know PGV in my view Hasn't always been the best actor and so it's kind of laid a path where there's additional And more difficult hurdles to overcome if we are going to use geothermal in the future It does have potential health effects. I think I think they can be mitigated, but I think it's something that That at this point it's going to be an uphill battle to prove to assert Can you can you identify some of those? Barriers that PGV would have in terms of what the constituents what your constituents See as a problem as it is another renewable and Yeah, it's the things that that you know, there's concerns about drilling into the ground and if it will affect the ground water I think there's potential for that. I mean, it's something that's discussed when they do the yay or yay as I Think there's ways to mitigate it, but there's just a lot of There's a lot of just emotion about geothermal in my district, I would say and that's a difficult thing I mean, I think that would take some time and some PR and just a lot of Listening I'm presenting facts to to kind of turn that around I think a lot of people support it too and they and it's and you know There can there are the people who feel very strongly about something tend to be very noisy about it as well, but um Well, you're on the west side of Great island And you're you're not in Puna per se, but I I would make a guess and you can tell me how wrong I am That the people in Puna feel even more strongly That geothermal is not for them. Am I right? Yeah, I mean, I would I would say that that's the case from what I've heard I mean, like I said, I haven't spoken to every Individual person and ask them what they think but I think the people that we hear from tend to be opposed So I think it's you know, it's a it's a huge advantage potentially to have this Renewable resource that could provide baseload on our island But it's gonna it's like I said, it's not as smooth sailing as it will be for some other technologies And you know, it's not guaranteed either. I think proponents of geothermal tend to act like it's a Guaranteed it's there. It's easy to find. I mean it can be very challenging to locate a resource and then to locate it In an area that's going to be appropriate to place it so There's not even a guarantee of how available it is for West why you mean, but how much how much is is it straight cultural? You know what I mean aside from the scientific concerns and the You know the the smell of sulfur what have you the noise if you will how much of it is just Basic Pele I really don't feel like I'm in a position that I could you know break it down into a percentage I feel like that has You know, I know that was a bigger bigger piece of the discussion back in In the past when geothermal was that had been controversial a couple decades ago, maybe And now I think it's you know, it's resurfacing and there's this you know Everything that's happening with Monica as well and wanting to be respectful of the land and places that people hold sacred So I think that that could play a part as well. Yeah Well, I you know just looking at the big island for a minute I tell you my own story when I first came here in 1965 I remember that there was no power At South Point in fact a whole southern area of the big island did not have power a great number of the cities And that's cities but towns in that area on both sides east and west had no power And it took some time after 1965 for them to extend power and even now today I mean, I think there are probably more people off-grid completely just just because of the logistics of it In the big island than any other island And I think that there must be you know a greater affinity if you will For a solar off-grid, you know complete lifestyle and and with that in mind I'm just wondering how self-supply Is being received on the big island on the one hand I think you have areas where it's hard to make a connection with utility and Areas where people, you know like to be Independent just just historically at the same time it costs plenty of money To buy your own batteries because nobody's gonna help you with that And so we're talking about doubling the cost of a given solar installation on a you know in a residence What kind of what kind of a reception is Self-supply getting these days You know my district is more of the urban area. So in my district, there's probably less of the going off-grid But that's true. There is a lot more on a big island in general Well, I think it's at the point to where it's kind of the only option I mean they're pretty much net metering it's not an option anymore and then Good supply, I think they're at or nearing their cap in any case So, I mean if people want to connect them, it's kind of good supply and get a battery or Nothing, so I think that's part of the good argument for this being the year that we start looking at And a storage credit of some kind or storage rebate to to help those folks and to kind of make it a little more equitable Um Yeah, I think I think that's a really valuable issue, and I hope you do take that up this year Yeah, I think it's really important Not only a big island but all around town because of the the end of net energy metering in the beginning of Self-supply which is you know to me was just a matter of shifting the burden of buying storage, you know from larger institutions to individuals But but it's a solution it bypasses a lot of the the issues we were having before About the ability to accept a certain level of Renewables, and I think in the end, you know assuming we can all afford it. It may it may help us move forward now But I guess the question is how much interest is there in your committee and in the legislature to give You know incentives to self-supply and storage Well, I mean I support it and I you know, I can't speak for other legislators But I know like Chris Lee has supported it in the past so You know, I think there's always that question when you do a tax credit or rebate it has some impact on the budget So you have to look at it the idea of a tax credit The way it works is economic impact overall or the impact of you know reaching your policy goals That have some greater good is how you balance out the financial cost of the tax credit But you have to also make sure that it fits into the big picture of the budget and convince everyone that that's a that it's The trade-off works. Is this a great country or what? I also was gonna mention when you were asking about grid supply versus self-supply the other thing I would like to see the PUC work on or the legislature if if You know, we're if we can is to have a better time of use program because that could go a long way in replacing Net metering and create the incentives for people to use energy that's at the time of day We want them to use and give them kind of a break to help them make the putting solar panels on cost-effective And I think PC did something but it was really like a pilot program and not very far right right a couple of thousand I think it's a pilot program and and some people say that you know that the the cost during peak hours is Greater than now and obviously the cost during non peak hours is less But you got to watch out because you could wind up netting yourself a higher electric bill than a lower electric bill So we have to see how this all works out and that's why I mean I would certainly agree with the idea of having a pilot project not for the technology of it But to see the human conduct involved to see whether they really get the message And and you know do what is intended what intended to be said in you know incentivized And and maybe maybe this is a big thing But we we won't know yet and I don't think that pilot project is on the big island anyway I think it's on a wahoo maybe And I think we should all be watching it and the legislature too because if it looks like it's going to be Something good. Maybe it connects up with other incentives or de-incentives in the case And I was a little disappointed because I don't think we need a Such a restricted pilot project to be able to figure out that this is a program that can work And I feel a little bit like it was kind of dragging He'll drive you on implementing it on a broader scale. Yeah, let's take a short break. Nicole. That's Nicole Lowen She's represented from district six Kailua Kona and whole Lula lower and Sharon we're walking my co-host and we take a short break. You'll see we'll come back. We'll be right here. Don't go away Hi, I'm Donna Blanchard. I'm the host of center stage here on think tech on center stage. I talk with Really amazing Artistic guests about what they do how they do it and the most important point why they do it I think I hope the show is inspirational for everyone. I know it's always inspirational for me I'm also the managing director of Kumakuhua theater, which is right next door And I happen to have with me now will Kahele who is an artist. We just finished a conversation I hope you can catch on center stage and we work together at Kumakuhua theater. Why should people come over there? because it's a great place to see Plays written by Local playwrights. Why should people watch this show? Oh because It's cool and it's great things to know every week and because you know, you are a very cool hostess. Oh It's perfect. Thank you. Give me my money Okay, we're back. We're live with Nicole Lohan representative from district six on the big island and my co-host Sharon Moriwaki we're talking about what's on the legislative horizon for energy this coming you're starting in January 12th No, no, when is it open up Nicole? Yeah, because I usually start fasting about a week before Confide myself Let's talk for a minute about the national scene I don't want to you know, tell anybody anything. They don't know already, but Donald Trump was election And it's very unpredictable and very unpredictable both on the environmental side and also on the energy side And he's you know, he's following through on being unpredictable So one of those areas of non predictability is is on energy and he seems to favor coal And other fossil fuels This runs counter to you know, the direction of Hawaii and I wonder, you know, how you must think about this How how worried should we be about losing federal funding or dealing with regulations that are Inconsistent with our own policies. What do you think they call? Well, yeah, I mean, I think what's happening is a little bit terrifying Just to think of who will be in charge of some of these agencies and and what positions they've taken on Things that are important to us here But I think Hawaii will be able to continue to stick to our policy And you know, we it may be if we sort of allow this unfettered You know development of all our natural resource resources and fossil fuels that you could see the cost Go down, but I don't think that will change our policy to move to 100% and it will still reduce costs for rate payers in the meantime Well, we're not getting off of Oil or coal tomorrow, unfortunately, so there's still some time, you know, quite a bit of time to work with that it does You know create a challenge in the the competition. I mean it makes the competition for renewables a little tougher Mm-hmm, and just yeah, I mean, I think I would worry about things like the tax credits, you know for the first Residential PV, I think they've already taken such a big hit From the things that we did here in state that to think about, you know changes to that would be difficult for the industry And you know, there's there's other there's so many ways that I'm concerned about this new administration But I think that you know, I'm committed to I think the state is committed to continuing to move forward with our goals We here in Hawaii. I think for the most part, we know climate change is happening and I Think at least in my district. There's a lot of support for Moving towards 100% renewable and sticking with our plan. Yeah, amen to that You know as if you follow this sense as look at the history of it since well since the beginning of the energy policy forum Which was in the early 2000s and and since the famous or infamous energy agreement of 2008 What you see is great goals and last year, you know with the 45 2045 100% renewable target What you see is these great goals these great aspirations and then, you know a road full of distractions and potholes may I say and so, you know, it's the important thing and by the way, I see I See Trump as a huge distraction Whether he has direct effect on our efforts in our initiatives or indirect, you know, sort of public psychology effects on our Initiatives it will be still yet another distraction And what we can't afford to have is distraction of any kind So I I absolutely agree with what you said, Nicole is we have to keep on trucking here We have to we have we can't be distracted not by this or anything. Yeah Yeah, and particularly I mean Hawaii's never had its own resources that aren't renewable Energy resources in any case. So we are still better off in either scenario being independent and having control of our own energy So I think we have that at least that advantage here Yeah Well, the big island is a great place for leadership on this because you do have the resources and your your numbers are great Compared to the other islands even Kawai So and so, you know, you all you have to do is continue making making way for that target But let's talk about the intersection of energy and transportation Which everybody will agree with we're a little behind and it's partly because everybody loves fossil fuel cars and they want to give them up And I mean Sharon and I have spent a fair amount of time looking at transportation The energy policy forum is very interested in transportation D-bed is very interested in transportation And you know, it's important that we take you know steps We might not otherwise think of that we you know invent new initiatives or sub initiatives to make sure something happens in transportation After all six billion is still the number of dollars that we send offshore for fossil fuel That has not really declined in any material way. We're recently got a press release I think it was from Hawaiian Electric that we'd reached 5,000 Renewal rather electric cars in the state That's not nearly enough. I think some people believe a lot of people believe that electric cars is the way to Energize or at least do clean energy on transportation. How do you feel about that Nicole and what kind of legislative initiatives? Would you you know would be considering? Well, I think there's been a lot of action on transportation from You know agencies from, you know, NGOs from a lot of other organizations but it's an area where I think the legislature has actually lagged behind a little bit and I think there's a lot that we could do and then we could look at establishing goals similar to what we have for the renewable portfolio standards for transportation we can look at incentives or ways to To you know To create mandates that would help to it make the infrastructure more robust for electric vehicles and Yeah, I think we we definitely need to think about that not just electric vehicles Of course because well a few things I mean that we would like to see more electric vehicles on the road And I think we've got to consider that like the most viable alternative right now But there's also hydrogen especially as a potential fuel for mass transit And then we have to remember to with electric You know, you get more and more electric vehicles You're increasing your demand for electricity So you have to make sure that the additional electricity that you're adding is coming from renewables and not from a fossil fuel source and And then also it you know does nothing to mitigate traffic problems if you have Everybody just trading out their fossil fuel burning vehicle combustion engine for an electric vehicle So we have to also continue to invest in mass transit and bike lanes and just other transportation alternatives Yeah, big hours a great laboratory for this, you know, because it's big for one thing And because people you know Going gangbusters on solar and if you have solar on your roof that you can you know charge your own car and And the whole you know idea of having a perimeter road Makes it easier to put charging stations in remote locations because that road is going to be a you know a central thoroughfare But let me add that if if I have an island like a wahoo with just over a hundred mile perimeter That's nothing and we still haven't worked out range anxiety That's nothing compared to the big island with a perimeter of like 300 and change miles That would give me much greater range anxiety. How do you deal with that? Are you putting in stations there? Are you behind initiatives for that? Yeah, actually, I'm help put in a new one just fairly recently right in Kailua town And there are some here and there, but it's not something that it's I think on most people's radar You know people I know some people who have electric vehicles You don't see a ton of them and I think a lot of them probably end up charging them mainly at home The the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute has the pilot in in the volcano National Park with Hydrogen vehicles I just wonder how far that would go in addition to the EVs of using hydrogen as your fuel source Yeah, I'd love to see it work. I'm not sure how you know It's it's a if you're gonna invest in that alternative infrastructure I don't know what the additional I honestly don't know the answer what the additional cost is if you're looking at EV infrastructure and hydrogen I don't you know, I mean at this point with a handful of cars or vehicles. It would even be servicing, but I know that there's their Transisting some of the public transit Vehicles for that. I mean, I'm excited about all these options and probably I have to learn More about the trade-offs or if it's like all of the above is a possibility But yeah, we need to do more So you call all things considered now that the sort of the the cloud of the next era Experiences is not overhead anymore and now presumably all those Bottled up by tears and thoughts and initiatives and programs that we might not have you know Been been able to deal with while that cloud existed and now now we're free liberated. I guess in some way Do you see this 2017 session as being a big year for energy? Do you see this as being a kind of watershed moving forward to 2045 or will it be a struggle again? You know politics is hard to predict. So I I don't think I can say for sure. I hope that we get at least a few You know big things through and hopeful that that will be able to and you know, we'll just have to see Yeah, one last question is I'm so curious about this You know you're you're on the committee for energy and environment environment and energy And you have a lot on your plate from both sides of that, but I wonder What's your favorite area? What do you spend your time at two o'clock in the morning when you wake up? But you wake up thinking about energy or environment You know, I think I probably came into this position And when I first ran for office with a lot more knowledge in the like quote-unquote environment and even Some of the things that don't necessarily go through the environment committee But maybe are more under like Waterland or agriculture, but are still environmental issues and I've learned so much about energy in the last four years Which I really do enjoy so I think Uh, yeah, I really have to pick favorite diplomatic now, Nicole No, I do I enjoy the energy energy energy issues. It's interesting and there's a lot going on I think it's really exciting to be at the leading edge of things in the nation right now and And there's a lot of hope and Things that are things that are changing and new things will be able to implement which is Exciting so right now. I'm enjoying that a lot, but all but I enjoy many different Areas of policy making great Nicole I'm gonna ask Sharon to close and in closing Sharon. I hope you remind Nicole yet again come down to the energy policy forum briefing On january 12th. Go ahead Sharon. Okay. Thanks, Nicole for being with us and sharing with us and Last what happened last year and going forward and we really do look forward to hearing more from you and from the committee And do come To our energy briefing. We hope to address some of these The continuity of the past going forward and hopefully we can work together for a bright future and a good session Thank you so much. Thank you. Nicole. Thanks a lot. Oh, and we're from the big island. Aloha