 Hi, I'm George Kau and today I'm excited to be with Jonah Richmond and we're gonna be talking about What does empathic marketing mean? Jonah great to have you here. Hey, thanks for having me George Yeah, so let me go ahead and share with the audience your Background your bio and then we'll get into this conversation. So Jonah helps coaches healers and heart-centered educators Attract clients and students online. He has been studying online marketing since 2012 and he has led over a hundred in-person and online workshops Jonah is also a trainer in compassionate communication a modality that empath and empathizes Authentic self-expression self-expression and empathic listening he combines Compassionate communication with ethical marketing strategies to create a unique style of marketing And Jonah is also a member of my master heart business mentoring group. So I'm grateful for for his presence in there as well So and I just like to say to really fast that I actually just discovered you I think six months ago, maybe even less than six months ago and And I've been loving your program. I've been in it for I think two months now and as soon as I saw you I was like this guy's this guy's feels so aligned with my heart and I've been just just really enjoying the program. So just wanted to let your listeners know Appreciate it. Yeah, thank you and thank you for helping out others in the program too with your with your marketing coaching. So Let's start with this idea that a lot of people think marketing is about Broadcasting, you know, you got to get visible get attention make sure people see your message So it's all about like this, you know, this this direction of things But you kind of see it differently and I'd love for you to share with your office share with the audience what that is for sure. Yeah So, yeah, I mean, I'll just share with everyone that I've been I mean, I've been studying marketing now for for about 10 years But it started because it started at first I was a massage therapist for a little while I didn't really like that that much actually but I I started studying compassionate communication and this was because I I grew up with a lot of anxiety like I I was just like born with a lot of social anxiety particularly and Compassionate communication more than anything else and some other tools as well really helped me find a deep sense of self-love and And just helped me become a really happier a much happier person and so one of the things I love about that modality is the emphasis on really deeply hearing and Understanding the experience of another person and then having that experience like there's something really healing about the and therapeutic about the experience of just being really understood and So as I was studying sales and marketing over the past 10 years Working on growing a business sharing this though that modality that I love I started to to look at it through that lens and I realized that That Marketing is so much Actually about listening like we think of marketing like you said is just like we're putting ourselves out there And we're being really loud and we're trying to get attention and we're trying to show everyone how amazing we are and And there is an aspect of that, but there's but a big part of it I found is is really listening like like I find that that the best marketing copy and the best Educational content out there is it is when you're really letting your people know how well you understand them and how much you've been listening and hearing like Like these these are the challenges that i'm hearing you say and that you're having and these are the The feelings you're having and this is what you're really wanting to attain and when you're creating and you're putting yourself out there by In a way that's really just kind of actively letting people know that you hear them That I think is like a huge percentage of really effective marketing Yeah, and and and so seeing it that way has really helped me feel as a more introverted person Enjoy the process. So I because I feel like I can do that. I don't really like like gloating on myself, but right but Putting focusing on hearing others is something that really yes It marketing when it's done well And authentically is about relationship Right and so in any relationship if we're not Listening in a way that they feel heard We're not doing a good good job of listening. So thank you for that um another idea that that you talk about is How marketing is not linear? It's not linear and um tell us what you mean by that and how does that show up in in today's world? Yeah, um so I mean so a lot of I think a lot of the ways that marketing is done and taught these days is actually in a very It is what I would see as a linear way and actually I got this idea from from andre chaperone. He's uh, he teaches Email marketing and some some other styles of marketing as well and So but it's the idea that a lot of common marketing these days is taught in a way where everything happens In it's like you try and get people to go from one step to the next So it's like you put out a an ad and then the ad is trying to get you to click to the next page And then the page is trying to get you to sign up for the webinar and the webinar is trying to get you to sign up for the For the offer that they're selling and then the and then in the offer They're trying to get you to sign up for a more expensive offer And and the whole thing is it's a very linear track. It's like I want my audience to go through this exact series of steps Every single step is is set up in a way that is that is just trying to get you to take the next step So so they use a lot of methods to To try and create scarcity and pressure and FOMO to get you to to kind of pressure you to take the next step And so As andre chaperone calls it. He says that he believes that a lot of buyers don't actually like that I mean sellers as marketers marketers love that because you can kind of measure every step And try and optimize how many people move from one step to the next But he's like buyers don't really like that and that's what feels true to me that really What most of us prefer is is what he calls a choose your own adventure approach Which is like You you find ways for people to discover you and then they can and this is what I like george You're a great example of this Like you you put out a lot of content and then you can go to your website And there's a lot of you have a lot of blogs that you've written And there's just a way where you can kind of find your own way to absorb and get to know Us marketers or whatever it is that we're putting out there What whatever our modality is when people can find their own way to to learn about us And about our methods and our theories then that tends to be the way that they actually want to Want to learn and become In our to ultimately become a client potentially And part of that is the I'm kind of blinking on what I was going to say. No, I mean it's perfect. I mean sales funnels is is really What most of us are are are are taught when we start learning marketing these days It's been around for for years But uh, yeah, it's thank you for kind of explaining it so well. It's like, okay, here's what happens Here's what trying to pressure people to take the next step optimize it so that there's more a higher conversion rate to the next step and um, and and all of these Yeah, one thing I remember what I wanted to say and then it's like So there's this there's this pressure Like like the marketer when the marketer thinks that way usually they're like they're thinking short term like how fast can I get them Into the sale and so when you think of more of a choose your own adventure approach it's like You you think of it as like people Like people can take time like you might have someone who discovers you today and they sign up for Two years later and when you think that way You might have Less sales in the short run, but in the long run you're more likely to build a really sustainable business that people feel good about I was I was actually I've signed up for things that use that kind of method before And and for me I always felt like even if I enjoyed Some of what I was learning I always felt this little twinge of distrust for them And there's a way where where like the the authentic like feeling really trust trusting of who I Work with is is important to me and I think it's important to a lot of people and those kind of methods I feel Push people in the other direction. Yeah, that pressure Yeah, and you know I it's it's I was gonna say I'm sorry. You had to have that experience But in a way having had that experience, you really know how to gut Feeling what it's like that so many people have gone through and what you're trying to do differently You know truly and you have a very strong reason to do it differently Um, yeah, you know the thing about the sales funnel stuff and measuring every step You spoke so well about it is that What's not being measured or observed is the actual mind and heart of The person who's all the people who are source who are seeing your sales funnel who are experiencing it All they can see is the external click or the external sign-up or the external purchase They can't see the internal psychology And so it's like how many people are we turning off? And what when the other thing you said about how you know these linear ways give you short-term results Maybe sometimes Many times doesn't work people don't tell you that but sometimes they give you short-term results And they don't tend to build a long-term relationship and a long-term business and I Gave up on the linear marketing in 2013 essentially and started doing You know, like you said the choosing an adventure style in 2014 or so And I can tell you it really has my business has only gone up every year and it's gotten easier every year And so it's it's I wouldn't have been able to It's hard to to really believe it until you hear other people say no, it really doesn't work So I want to be one voice and you as well as a yes You don't have to do it in a linear way. So one of the things you also talk about is The three conditions that are needed for a client to say yes to you or a sale to happen. So Talk us through this talk us through this three Yeah, right. Um, so so the three conditions As I see it that that people need especially if we're doing a service-based work where they're where People are going to hire us to learn from us or or do coaching with us Is safety trust and desire and So so like desire is is like people kind of miss All in all of these in the way that they do their marketing And uh And desire is kind of the obvious one It's like you need to be offering them something that they have a genuine desire for and some people miss miss that it's like you the people think like it's kind of like the The idea of do they like sell them what they want Like what they desire and then give them what they need And some people try and market in a way that's focused more on what they What they need, but they might not feel a desire for it So it's helpful to just think of that like are people desiring this thing enough For for me to for them to pay for it. So that's just the first step. Um, but then so there's there's trust and safety and trust is It is the sense that people get the sense from you that you Are able to help them like you have you have the expertise or the background And this is also something that a lot of people talk about But what I think people don't talk about that much Is the third one which is safety um And safety is is like you don't It doesn't need to be there as much if you're just selling a product But if you're working with someone one-on-one What I find is that a lot of people really want to get a sense that they that they're really safe with you Especially if you're a one-on-one coach Or if you're in a group program that if they're in a group program with you that they're facilitating um That that they want to know That I I can feel safe with this person. I can I can share My real fears and my struggles and my pain And and know that this person is going to understand me. They're not going to judge me or Try and act like the challenge isn't as isn't as challenging as it is like they're gonna they're gonna lean in and and offer kind of an empathic way of being And uh, and so safety I think is really important like I found that that's actually been like having been a compassionate communication practitioner and trainer all these years that that's been my greatest asset when it comes to marketing and sales That that a huge percentage of people I mean, yeah, I almost want to say just about everyone who hires me has ever hired me Has has said that part of the reason they did it was because of how well I listened to them And uh and and another thing about about marketing is Like one of the things I started learning early on was the value of having one-on-one conversations with people Like like you could say like a sales call or an enrollment call Which I don't I don't love the word sales or even enrollment really it sort of feels like we're doing something to them but it's like having a conversation Where like a lot of people just want to try and get sales from a sales page or they think that's what you're supposed to do Like you create a sales page online and people find that and then they they sign up But most people I find Like it's much easier for me Or and I think for for all of us to have people sign up with us when they had a conversation with us And so for me like some people think of sales or they teach sales in a way That's like overcoming objections and trying to get the person to buy But I find that if I talk to someone and I have like like, you know, some structure for the way that I do it But then I really emphasize a lot of listening People usually want to work with me I mean, especially if they trust me and they desire the thing that I'm helping them get It's like adding that piece of having the experience of knowing. Wow. I feel really safe with this person Um Usually leads people to want to hire me and I don't have to pressure them. I don't have to talk them into it It's just it's just letting them know like giving them the experience of connecting with me That's great. And really nice. Yeah, I love I love this little triangle of what how how Yeah, why why people say yes to to our work Yeah, and uh It's like, you know, another way I might think about it is that the way that you are doing marketing is like you're bringing love to people you know The empathic listening is an act of love It's an act of service and so Whether or not they actually hire you You have blessed them in that way, you know, and so it's a really wonderful thing to do um I guess the last question I have for you and last thing we can talk about is um You know, this is in regards to building trust a lot of A lot of times we're taught in mark in traditional marketing to like Make it sound really good. Like, oh my god. This has this sounds so good Right. Oh loose loose 50 pounds in a week. It probably doesn't sound that that sounds unhealthy But but you know, it's like, yeah, you'll lose 50 pounds in this program or you'll make six figures By you know working with me or whatever So tell us what your what your thoughts are on on that kind of thing um, yeah, so I mean, yeah, what you're speaking of. I see is like the traditional I mean a lot of common marketing, especially online has these very grand promises like Yeah, you're gonna make six figures very quickly Um, or lose weight Really fast or like you're gonna lose all this weight without dieting or exercise like something that just sounds really good um But I think the thing that That I find that that I really try to not Lean into is the way that that's done particularly around Making things seem easy like Like like saying, oh, it's so easy To earn six figures if you just follow my three-step formula That anyone can do it like a five-year-old can do this. Um, I mean, maybe a five-year-old could if they're They're smart, but it's like it's like the idea of saying that it's so easy Um, I think puts people in the wrong mindset. I think it can be harmful Especially when when the thing that they're wanting to achieve is is not actually that easy And growing a six-figure business as an example is not Is not Really that easy for most people. I mean, maybe there's those few people who kind of got lucky or they had the right resources or the right connections and It kind of just fell into their lap But the majority of people that's not the case and to mark it in a way where you're trying to Make that seem like it is So that like, oh, yeah, I want to buy your course. I want it to be super easy. I want to be able to have a four-hour work week Is is uh and and then make six figures doing it like it's um It's is not the way that that I believe is is a good way to to grow a long-term sustainable business because The more that if we're marketing that way And I mean and and some of your listeners maybe have had this experience of like Being in being in a in a program where you are marketed to that way You're so much more likely to feel disappointed to feel cheated Um, and I don't think that that lends people to want to to want to keep working with you more or Or referring you to other people Like like it it may increase sales because people like the idea of it being easy so what what I like to do instead is to emphasize the Like in in my when I when I speak with people and when I create content is to emphasize the the value of of taking of going through the challenge Of of really stepping into like if you're someone if i'm talking to someone and they're considering Being an entrepreneur and they haven't like fully committed to it yet I'm gonna I'm gonna emphasize like yeah, this is it's not gonna be easy I don't have a three-step process that's gonna make it so your six figures in two months like nobody does And they're lying to you if they say that they do And so I'm gonna be honest like like are you wanting to do something that is going to call on you to really step into your heroic self or your your You know like the part of you that that likes to embrace challenges in life that likes to overcome obstacles And and I think that that emphasizing these more strong parts of ourselves Is the way that I prefer to to market something especially if we're If if you're a coach and you're helping people with something that's challenging rather than trying to claim that it's easy Yeah, I love it. I love it. You know Sometimes the people go well, but like they're giving us case studies Of this client or themselves having earned six figures in two months You know and I like I'm like well, even if that's true, let's just assume that they're not lying to us And that they're giving us true numbers. All right, let's assume that what we are not seeing Is the years of work That built the foundation Where they could send out that email and earn $50,000 in one email or whatever they they're telling right like like It's kind of it's kind of like if someone told you listen I'm going to train you how to it's easy to run a five minute mile or six whatever six minute mile Five minute mile. Let's say it's easy to run a five minute mile Yeah, look look at me. I you know, I'm doing it doesn't look easy Yeah, well, yeah, we're like we're like I hope so and so do it We only work together two sessions and now they can do it, but yeah Yeah, they didn't tell you that they were already running a five minute and 20 second mile It's like it's like yeah after two sessions now they're running a five minute mile But they don't tell you all where the person was already at they don't tell you in those case studies where they're at Or they tell you some rags richest story They don't tell you all the other back end Of benefits that they had and all the privilege that they had to like but you know make that seem so easy And so yeah, thank you for calling us out. It's so so important. Well I hope everyone who's been listening and watching has felt Encouraged in to do marketing in a more authentic empathic way And Jonah you have great content that you're you're sharing freely On your website as also on instagram too. I enjoy seeing your instagram content So I will be sure to put the links In the notes. So folks be sure to check out Jonah's instagram for sure his website I also actually really like his website. It's very clean. It's very it's actually a good example for what a A minimalistic but effective website could be so be sure to check out Jonah's website to see How you might want to emulate something like that for your own Jonah, is there anything else you want to say about what service you offer to the people? Yeah, so I So a couple of things one is I do one-on-one coaching So you can you can go to my site and just read a little bit more about how I do that for for small business owners particularly coaches healers and online educators Or in person I my business used to be a lot of doing in person workshops. So I help I can help people with that as well But I also I have a a workshop coming up that I'm offering It's like I was talking about having conversations Like sales conversations, but really what I see is just connecting conversations with people who may be interested in working with you And so I'm putting on a workshop where I teach my whole process for how I do that and how I how I have those How I get into conversations with those people And it's called from followers to clients and I You can go to my website and Read more about that. But I'm actually offering it for free. This is it's a it's a new workshop So I won't I don't intend to offer it for free forever But this first round I'm really wanting to get People in there and to get feedback and So So yeah, so it's kind of like a beta a beta run of of course Yeah, it's really great And I know some people are going to be watching this months or even years after we record this So by the time you watch this you probably have to pay for the workshop, but it's still going to be worth doing It's online, of course, so anyone in the world can take it And um, it's going to be worth it. So no matter what what you know, I'm sure Jonah is going to charge a very reasonable price. So for sure, and then one thing I just want to say about it too is um It's gonna it's going to be the kind like like my background is leading workshops where there's a lot of interaction with with Participants and so just so you know If if you like that you're going to love this workshop If you like to spend to like to connect with other participants and get to practice and and network and And connect then you're then you're going to really like this workshop. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah Well, thank you so much Jonah for doing the work that you do and the way that you do it And um, yeah, I hope people will connect with you and benefit as well Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me George