 Welcome to Toffy TV, lots of media outlets are reporting that Frank Lampard has indeed been sacked by Everton today, but still awaiting official confirmation from Everton Football Club. You might be waiting until about half-term. There's nothing from Everton. There's nothing right now. But everybody else is gone with it. All the journalists, exclusives, Sky Sports have gone with it. That Frank Lampard has been relieved of his managerial duties at Everton Football Club less than a year. Only just less than a year, but less than a year after. Over on the 31st of January last year, so what I have, we were on the 20 something, so like nine days or something. Eight days short of a year. Manager and a year in which hasn't been brilliant overall, at all. Haven't of only one, I think 12 games at the 40 odd he's been in charge of. And we've only won three in 20 this year, which is why he's been relieved of his duties. Stee, it's not really a surprise, is it? No, no, no. I think we all fought after the game on Saturday. I think it was only a matter of time, really, when it was going to be. Obviously we've seen reports last night, Dominic King going with the story. And then obviously we've seen stories this morning as well. Yeah, it's just like last January all over again, really, isn't it? What is it? Nine days left of the transfer window. The only good thing is, like we said before, we've got a director of football this time. But again, it just shows, I suppose, the failings of the football club, really, and the failings of the current squad on the pitch as well. John, I mean, I've just said that there are three wins in 20 Premier League games out of both club competitions by the first week in January. But we're here again. We're here again and another manager's come and gone. He's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Fundamentally, the football club's failed. I mean, we've sat here on the sofa before. You've talked, well, we've talked to me about my philosophy around my job is to remove all the excuses, blah, blah, blah. And this football club watches managers fail. They watch them die day by day. Any football club worth its salt would have announced immediately after the game at the weekend that he'd gone. Why has the poor man had to go through a weekend of knowing he's sacked but thinking, well, maybe I'm not? Why are media quoting or appearing to quote Masheri when Masheri said on Saturday night it wasn't his decision? So goddamn dysfunctional is not true. And whatever time it was, 18 minutes past three, they told all the media that's 20 minutes ago. They haven't told us yet. Can you just sit? Sorry, because I'm really annoyed, right? Well, just because we've just seen what this fan base has been like, what they've been doing with our opinions of the board. And in this moment, they thought, let's tell all the media first. Let's tell all the media first, right? It's extraordinary. And who knows what follows now? Are we seeing why they don't generally say things? Because every time they've opened their mouth and they've lost eight or nine, ten days, they've made it worse. I mean, we've said again, if you don't say anything, you can't say the wrong thing. Silence is golden, all that rubbish, right? But this is a digital 24x7 always on world. And journalists who don't give a damn about this football club knew before we did. And it's just not right. There's no reason why it can't come out minimally at the same time. There'll be big changes at the football club. I honestly think it will. And that'll include the PR team and everything. I'm asking as we move forward. Certainly I'll have it and get things out because they're just behind in everything. There's going to be a huge number of victims of this fallout. I think for me, when you look at it now, obviously, like you've just said, we don't seem to help the manager in the best way possible. And I'm not saying, listen, I'm not saying, the satir now and the manager is not being good enough. And he hasn't had the help that sometimes we require, obviously. But going forward, I mean, when you're looking at it now, this is an appointment. You would hope that while things are being struggling, having been looking around to see who fits it, however their vision is. And hopefully it's the director of football because otherwise what's the point? What's he there for? Hopefully, having been looking around and they've got a list that doesn't late from Sean Dice to a Pep Guardi, all the type. I'm using them as like how you play football. Exactly that kind of thing. You'd hope that a lot of them are similar in their vision and similar in so we can't continue to, sorry, we can't start to move forward because that's the only way how you progress, isn't it? It is, mate, it is. And I was just saying on the show we did before as well, everybody's going to be on this as well. It can't be just one person saying I want this, one person saying it. For this manager, whoever it is going to be, I haven't got a clue, it's going to be right now to be honest with you. Everybody's going to be in on it because what's the point? You can't have Farad Mashi'i and Bill Cairnwraith saying we've appointed him. And Kevin Fell will have no say at all like Marcel Brands had to go for that bit me. And that's one of the reasons we are where we are today is because of people not setting a plan out. There's been no plan from the football club. The plan for the last couple of years is to hire them for 12 months sack. Hire them, sack. It's just, it gets you nowhere. You know where it gets you? Second from bottom in the Premier League. Exactly. That's where it gets you. And I said this to you before. I've seen it happen in a football club before. Aston Villa. It happened at Aston Villa. Kept changing managers. Went down. Sunderland kept changing managers. Poor recruitment went down. Newcastle, Wafford. The list goes on and on and on. And you know what? It can only go on for so long before it catches up with you. And the club, I've got a new stadium coming round the corner. And they've got to be very, very careful. It doesn't catch them at the wrong time. Because if it does, I've seen reports over the weekend about potential wage bills. If they go relegated, not many relegation clauses and players contracts, et cetera, et cetera. They've got to be very, very careful and they need to make sure that the decision they make is the right for the football club and the plan moving forward. Because if not, we'll be back here next January. I mean, if we're just looking right now, when you're looking and obviously you look at managers, they're going to give you this straight away and you're going to get odds. Because that's what that game's all about. I think we have. I think there is some odds. Sean Dice apparently at the moment is one of the favourites although last night and this morning he's been, you know, evident and interested in him. Those people are going to lose them, aren't they? He's in. He's in for there. We've seen links to Bielsa. Unbelievable. Which is a mad one to me, giving evidence squad. We've seen Duncan Ferguson, Wayne Rooney's in the picture, David Moyes apparently is in the picture as well. That'll be the same David Moyes who said that Frank shouldn't get sacked. He shouldn't get sacked as well if he's one of my rivals. Let's try and get a couple of teams down there. But the reality is no matter what happens here, we've got to make sure the homework's done. The character to bring in suits what's at the club. And you have to, like we said before on the live show that we did that half one. You'd hope, and I imagine that it is, you're digging into people's coaching backgrounds. What are they like as a coach? Can they come in and do this job? Because just like, say a David Moyes, the way he does all that digging into a player's background is he a good character? Is he going to cause me a new season? That's one of one stuff. But that's, have we done that though, John? We say that's one of one stuff. I'm clearly not. I said it before, we went from David Moyes having evidently in the top five or six every year. We give the job when he went to a lad who's just been relegating. Care about Nefa, he got relegated. And we give him the job when there was other qualified managers there. We then give Ronald Coom and the job even though we know people making the decisions and have reservations about him and we go, I don't know whether we should. You say one or one stuff that. If you're giving me a job then you think, I'm going, before we sign his contract. What we're describing here is we have to do the basics. Just like a team has to do the basics. If you're like, off the field team have to do the basics. And that they haven't been doing the basics for the last three or four months in anticipation that this scenario, and again we've done it on the sofa. You're on the scenarios, you plan. What if? What if? What if this manager, because the manager could have chose to resign, right? Manager could have got off of the job somewhere else. We could be doing really well. So you've got to have a plan ready. But did they have a plan ready when Carlo went to your lot event? No, it didn't seem so. Exactly. I remember me and you sat somewhere having this discussion going on. You would have thought that you'd always just check, especially if you had the alleged clause in his contract. You'd always be running it. It's basic stuff. You know, so presumably we end up with Leighton Baines and Paul Tate. It's from now. Which I've quite, you know, because I said Tate. So I think, look at me, how clever am I? I mean, they're the only ones who are there, right? Because presumably Frank's backroom team have gone with him as well. Well, would you stay there all his mates and he's brought them in? No. You're not going to stay there. I'll say you should go. Exactly. Patrick says that Paul manager, not given the players required, a decision should have been made in November. And if the capability to improve the squad quickly in January wasn't there, then they had to cut ties and get a manager in with what time, with that time to work with the squad. Absolutely. And that's where you go to your coach. It's not a manager type of thing. Degsy says, here we go again. The board's trying to deflect. What's the point? Where will a new manager change it now? He's dunked at man. I have no idea who the man is. I'll be honest. I've even stopped going, oh, we could get him and we could get him. I don't know, because I honestly, everyone who's set mentions a name to me, I just think, lean here before. I think they're like, I think what John said before, spot on though, half an hour since everybody got told about this and the club's still yet to announce it. You said to me this morning, when did it, and I went, oh, I didn't make it, because I didn't expect them to announce it. This is what they do. Whatever evidence PR strategy is, this is how it always goes. There's leaks. We're linked with a player. It's out there. We're announced managers have gone. We're announced managers have gone. Hours after everyone else knows. That's different to saying they're not going to, but yeah. They will, but everyone knows. It's already too late. At the end of the day, evidence should have gone. We've made the decision right with announcing it now. I have a pressure, he's ready to go to all the jainers, but at three o'clock we are announcing it. And at three o'clock, evidence do it and the jainers love the story. That's the way it is. Evidently, I forgot this somewhere. The people who were there forgot this somewhere. It's our football club. They are in charge of things. They forgot it right the way down to asking footballers to do things. Oh, we don't know whether we can ask them. They're not happy. What do you mean you're not happy? You're getting paid 80 grand a week. You will go to that school. You will do this interview. You will stay until four o'clock. It's embarrassing the way we are at times. It's almost like we are apologising for like, oh, can we have an interview with them or I don't know whether we can send people to that place or we can ask your footballers to do that. Take the power back. We pay you. You're an employee. You'll do what you said. That runs through you. It runs right. Not just the players. It's staff as well. It runs right the way through. It runs through the whole place. It's just nonsense. There are multiple people and they know who they are. They make promises and they don't deliver upon them. They don't have the courtesy to say to you, actually I did promise that but I couldn't do it next week or never or whatever. And they hide. Everyone watching this knows. They hide. They go in their little bunker, right? And I have great sympathy for some of the people we know. Oh God, absolutely. Because we know individually they are really good people. They do the right thing. But collectively, it's so broken. It's a culture, isn't it? It's a culture. Culture is a small sea, big sea, all that sort of stuff. But it's easy to fix if you have the right people. Okay? And culture, if you want to call it culture, it's a good catch all, isn't it? That can be changed overnight with one leader. Can? One leader. You're right. The rest of it takes time, right? And there'll be many, many victims of this when it's all played out. And some of the people who get thrown out with the bathwater are going to be really good people and don't deserve it. And some of the cuties who do deserve to go will just be clever enough not to. Yeah. But it doesn't matter if you've got the leadership right and the leadership is about, you know, it's not about 120-point plans and bullshit like that, right? By all means, have a plan. But don't say that just because you're sticking it in some goddamn programme notes. We have a plan that anyone believes you, you know? Actions speak louder than words. I've never bragged about a plan. I've never said how many lines are in it. You know, you have to sit or stand in front of the staff and say, this is how it's going to be. You know? And there's plenty of examples, whether it's in football, other sports or real businesses if you like, i.e. ones that are not so out of kill-to-wit reality, just because the nature of all the money that's washing around it, where big leaders stand up in front of big audiences and fundamentally say, if you don't like what we're going to do, there's the door. Right? And if someone you really don't want to go goes, you just suck it up and get on with it. Cos you've got to operate on some very basic rules, you know? The winners are here against us, you know? You're either prepared to change or you're not. Whatever, whatever, whatever. The crazy thing is that you look around the Premier League and you look at some of the clubs that are doing the right things. You never hear them coming out bragging, do you? Even when they're doing the right things because we praise them or people are praising them more rather than giving themselves a pat on the back. Like the Brighton Manchester City and other clubs like Brentford. Clubs that are doing really good things with their football club. You never hear anything like, oh, we're doing this, we're doing that. They just happen, it's just natural. It doesn't seem to happen. Obviously the manager's gone on the record, speaks for itself, doesn't it? It's not being good enough. Like Patrick said before, we haven't helped him. He hasn't helped himself and the mix together has produced what we've seen with it. What type of manager do you think everything needs to be looking at now? I think it's got to be somebody who fits with the, again, this one coming back to you. It's got to be somebody who fits with the culture of the director of football but then the thing is, John, the people above the director of football also need to be aligned with him or what's the point in his job. But also you've also got to have a manager who's going to question decisions as well. I don't know if Frank Lampard's been that manager who's been willing to question because of the results he's been getting, et cetera, et cetera. I've mentioned to Baz, obviously last night, I looked at a few things Kevin Fellwell has done before, i.e. the style of play he wants, the type of formation he wants everything to play in and like I've always said to you, John, Lampard has never fellwells, man. Was he? Listen, it works always. Players are going to have to come into the football club and know what the culture is about, the style of play, all those sort of things. You're only going to pick players that you think fit that and then they have to have their induction, don't they, which reaffirms it. The induction is done by the other players. That's not how we do things here. That's what happens in successful teams. You think you're the big I am. You're coming into this changing room. No, that's not how it works, right? But you can't put all your eggs in one basket. You're convinced by fellwell, right? Because he's not had to do anything yet, right? So to say that he's going to have, I know you didn't say this, but to imply, he's going to have total control over which manager comes in, the style of play, the this, the that and the other, what happens if he's wrong? Now, the collegiate stuff that the chief exec talks about, apart from the fact it's a dodgy phrase, right? But teamwork is not a democracy. So yes, people can have opinions. I actually would like to think that the sat round the board room and Bill Kenwright saying, I want person A. And far have been sure he's saying, I want person B. And Denise is saying, I want person C. And someone else, director of thought, saying, let me just explain to you why A, B and C are the wrong ones, right? Because what they shouldn't be doing right now is looking for a personality. Just like when they're looking for players, they should be looking for a style of manager. My answer, a young, hungry manager who's done all the badges, obviously, and all that sort of rubbish, but is versed in 21st century footballing coaching, which is analytics driven, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And is a coach, right? Call him what you like, but the person has to be a coach and know that a fundamental part of their job is to make the squad or the individual components of the squad minimally better because of his insight, right? And right now, someone like Arteta is getting loaded because he's making players at Arsenal better. The average age of their front three was 20, wasn't it yesterday? Something like that. It cost him 15 million quid or something, right? But he's had his hard times. He had to break the culture. That was big name players, Obama Yang and stuff like that. He played win-lose with his job, right? No, he did. And we've had a succession of managers, none of whom have prepared to play win-lose with the culture. I want to mention about the director football. He's going to be involved in the decision of me as well as the board members as well. It can't be like, let's be honest, John, we all know, Carlo Angiolotti and Rapha Benita has probably had nothing to do with Arsenal brands being involved. Sorry, the owner has caused much of the problems by going and getting names more than styles, right? But if you want to do it from an organisational perspective, the person accountable for deciding the sporting direction of the football club should be the director of football, right? Do we agree with that? So why is he on the goddamn board then? So the board members who are there right now do not believe that the person accountable for direction is the director of football because he would be on the board and appear of those if he was. As soon as he's not on the board, being here at the moment, the obvious question is, who does he report to then? Don't give me this shit about he reports to the board. You cannot report to a group, right? You report to an individual, right? Doesn't report to Graham Sharp, cannot possibly be reported to Grant Ingalls. Therefore, right now, fell well report to either Bill or to Denise. And if that's the case, that's a nightmare scenario. One person is invested in the past and the other person is invested in themselves, right? So that's not meant to be really horrible about the chief executive. Her position is under huge stress because she is the chief executive. Therefore, like most human beings, she's unlikely to do things that compromise if she wants to stay in the role. And the same applies to Bill as we've seen in recent days, someone like Graham and stuff like that. But ultimately, going back to your question or your observation, the director of football's job is to make a recommendation for the board to ratify. If they don't take his advice, then that's it. First and foremost, let's have a look at Frank Lampard's record first. These are on screen. This was his record in 21-22. It's 21 games. This is all competitions, even though it's got a point per game at the bottom. In all competitions last season, he had 21 games in charity, 18-22 and lost 11. And then this season, in 22-23. Sorry, just go back one net, his point per game was 1.24. This season, in 22-23, he's had 23 games. He's won four games, drawn six and lost three. He's got 0.78, which is the reason why Everton are where they are. Don't score goals. Don't get points in games. And it's just not... It's not difficult, is it? If you don't take things from each game and you don't score goals, you'll end up... I feel like John said about the coach before. It was a really good point. I look at the game, go hard back to him. He's one of the greatest managers of all time. Every day, he's on that coaching pitch with 60 players, even though he's won Champions League. He knows better than all his coaches what those players need. We had the other night and moaning about not the fact he won the game about doing the extra mile, putting the extra tackling, getting on the referee, backing up the young kid who's put four tackles in. He's talking all about that. It's cliched, it's marginal games and that's what it's all about. Let's hear what the manager had to say after evidence defeat at West Ham or the X-man. After evidence defeat at West Ham on Saturday. You're disappointed in the result, particularly when we had major control of the game in between both boxes to lose to and it was obviously disappointing, but with a lot of possession. The game went a lot of the way we wanted it to go, particularly up to the 20th minute or so, the stadium was quiet. We had the ball and it came down to probably an issue for us recently, if we're not going to be clinical enough, not dynamic enough, not tough enough in the final third. You always have a possibility particularly with a good team at West Ham of good individuals of conceding and it changes the feeling of the game. Welcome back. I'm delighted to say I've been joined in the studio by former Everton captain Alan Stubbs who has not really made his feelings and I wonder what's been going on. Everton. Al, welcome. Mor ydy'r ddeu, mate. You were coming in anyway, but obviously you've come in on a day when Frank Lampard has been relieved. I'm a little bit in two minds here because obviously I feel for Frank because I think he's being delta hand that was very difficult in the first place. But then I've got to be honest that I think the last last six weeks I don't necessarily think the teams put performances in that they say we're behind the manager. I thought Saturday was really was tepid. I thought we didn't I just didn't think I think we could have been there for two weeks and not scored. We don't look a threat. I thought the players just went through the motions on Saturday. And unfortunately as we've seen with Everton over the past six years, seven years one person always takes the fall and it's the manager and I like Frank I think he's a really nice guy I think he got Everton I think it was the first time in quite a few years that there was a relationship between the fans and the manager but unfortunately it just hasn't worked out the way we all would have liked it. No. If you just look at the season overall so far we've won three games of football in 20 you've been in the dressing room you've been in these fights you've been in teams and we've been at the top when obviously your time is Celtic when you lose and get to me it looked like on Saturday they can't just expect it to get because we're in that run now it does but I think that's where you need your leaders and I think we look like a team that's accepted it I think we accept getting beat now I don't see players rolling their sleeves up doing something about it you know if someone lifted someone at Goddison and got a yellow card they're the type of things that get the fans going and the small things and the one thing I think no matter what type of players you have at Everton the players want to see first and foremost you play for the jersey and you know I'm not sitting here and saying the players don't look like they're not trying because I don't think I don't know any player that's gone on to a pitch and had the mindset of not trying but they've got to do so much more than what they're showing right now because the manager's he's the one that's going to carry all the responsibility for it but the players have got to stand up because what I see on Saturday is not a team that represented Everton Football Club I think that was a team that knew the consequences on Saturday and first off I was watching the game when I was pulling me out because we were just we were lifeless we passed the ball for pass and seek we went sideways we've got no threat in behind we've got everyone who wants to come towards the ball I've got to say Dominic Calvert-Lewin has to do so much more than what he's doing right now and I know he's had injuries but we're talking now we've got five games now and it doesn't look like for me he wants to have any contact with anybody and it's not just us but then you look at us we don't look like we're going to score goals apart from a set piece which even then we don't look at it we've got big lads in the team Anana, Tarkowski, Cody Mina at the weekend Dom it's five, six, four lads Yeah, yeah, yeah Honestly, God it's sad to see it really is Can I, obviously last season it was a terrible time I was just saying before on something we were doing we won one in 14 last season and in all the times we've been watching Everton and we've struggled we've never had a run like that it's always like it might be four defeats on a run then we win one and then it's that let the manager get to grips with it now the one thing that I disagree with Frank is that in shame well we were down there last season so we knew we would be this season but you've been a manager out you The flip side to that and it's a really good point is that obviously when I was at Everton first the early part we were yo-yo so we were down the bottom one season finished a couple of places above it then the next season I think we were seventh so therefore I disagree with that mindset that he said because basically he's given the players an opportunity to say well look you know, I'm just saying it and the one thing you can't give players is a licence to feel sorry for themselves because they do take it and right now the warrior sign is that we don't look like we've got a squad that can drag us out of it and unfortunately they're going to have to we've got no choice we need reinforcements I think everybody knows that we know what's going on behind the scenes I think we have to keep driving that forward because for a lot of people this is just the start this is the first change of more this shouldn't be the last this has to be the first and I think the point getting through we are we are an amazing football club we really are and we're getting dragged through through the gutter right now on and off the pitch and people what's being done to the Everton fans over the last three weeks there's nothing short of this baseball it really is and this has got to stop there's got to be some clarity on where the club's going there's got to be some clarity on in terms of the financial fair play where exactly are we how close are we sailing to the wind come on, it's not difficult let's be honest because I think it is an honesty fair enough at least they've come out exactly where we are but it's like cloaking dagger and not everybody's on the same page and everyone's out they're having to go at me this is the football club we're talking about not individuals, this is Everton's future unfortunately for me the people who have been making the decisions consistently over the last not just seven years but more have consistently got it wrong so how do we move forward it's impossible we see other clubs, you're absolutely right there I said this one something we done the other week there was an article in the echo so someone has given Joe Thomas really good he's gone to war a little bit with the echo having always done just property but he was obviously giving a story just before Christmas that said Everton off the naughty step with FFP so a lot of people coming to us going we'll have 40, 50 million maybe like don't think it's quite like that but what you're giving that message out to fans is we're alright we can do what we want if they did just come out and go on it's still tight this January I think fans go alright we know this is not great we of course we want money what benefit do they think of giving that story to the people who are making a pressure isn't it all it does is it creates a divide because obviously there's a lot of people out there who know exactly where Everton are from a financial point of view they see the records and everything it's there it's in the public domain Everton's last three years they're somewhere in the region of 380 million pound in debt or 380 million pound losses so therefore that tells you everything you need to know in terms of Everton it is effectively the crazy abject spending from the first day has come to fruition now in terms of where it's here in Everton and if that's the case after even year 3 anyone who's worth the coin should have been saying we need to hold on here this is going to last three years they're going to bite us on the backside at some point and that's why these are the type of things they talk about the run under the club where someone's got to someone surely someone knows that and this day where we are now three years ago four years ago it hasn't just come hasn't just come in the last six months you've got a problem it is crazy because it's great having billions of pounds wanting to spend it but the rules don't allow you to you write someone's got to be the adult and go we can't do this so we have to make fundamental changes you look at clubs like they don't need to run very well Brentford have been doing this for 10 years you'll have known anyway what's going on that amount of time when you're seeing these football clubs you don't have Everton resources producing good competitive football teams so how do we get to that because obviously like we just said with huge losses the clubs they've got rid of 80ms so you can't do them no more I think we're going to get figures by the end of March and I imagine the losses are smaller because Everton haven't really spent a lot of late compared to what they did but those losses will still be there how do we begin to do things a different way well I think the two clubs that you mentioned are great examples of how a business model can work we haven't got a business model so we haven't improved because we've gone from manager to manager to manager and what happens then is that you have an overspill of the players that that first manager had he's still there obviously a lot of them have gone now but then it has a snowball effect the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth the sixth, the seventh Frank Lampard has been the last one how many players that he inherited did he actually really want an hour that said probably more than half we've had players sitting there happy to take 80, 100 grand a week not wanting to move saying toss and being one he used the biggest one and I think that just creates a culture within the club even though supposedly he might have been a nice guy but I couldn't care less what is a nice guy we can't afford to pay someone 100 grand a week to absolutely give nothing to the football club so for me it's staring us right in the eyes we've had a known who has come in he was obviously a very rich man and supposedly people who he knows are even richer so therefore I think when you have that wealth I think comes with that I can do what I want and there's no doubt that he undermines people on the board right now there's no doubt about that I want that player it's not necessarily right I don't care, I want that player so who's telling him because he's not a football man so where's his information coming from for suddenly to him a mindset of I want that player is it agents is it other people and then I flip it around and go well if people on the board are getting undermined and they know they are then why are you there because no matter what you say it doesn't make any difference because the man at the top is going to say I don't care, we're doing that so ultimately there's money where his mouth is and I take me hat off to him for that he's ultimately the one that is responsible for the position that we find ourselves in absolutely obviously you've been a manager as well if you were going in you're going into the 7th and job now because the manager wouldn't wish it on you by the way right now but you're going in there and like you said it is almost a Frankenstein squad of 7 different managers he was David, David, Moise you're going through and there's different players when you go in you've got a way of playing how would you deal with this now if he phones you up and said you've been really complimenting lately to us on the board and we want to give you the job how would you go about it as a manager when you're walking because we've had we haven't even had managers like Alan likes to play passing football and he's been a man like he's gone he played direct football I get the job so your place don't work for me how do you approach that as a manager well I think Frank he had a style where he wanted to try and play from the back we've seen that before with Roberto and I think he was lucky because he had the overlap of the David Moise team before and then he introduced a little bit more of a football side he got the balance but then obviously when he put his own make on the team it just it was disaster it was torture watching them side to side going nowhere and our fans don't like that you played in front of them and that's what I get to is that I think since the new owners come in we've lost our DNA we've lost our style in terms of what we wear when I used to speak to other players they used to hate coming to Godderson they hated it one of the most difficult grounds in the country because of the way we played and the fans and it's intimidating you played for Bolton in Scotland and it's what was that like but it was great obviously when I say it was great I had mixed emotions so on one side my family wanted me to win and lose and then obviously to score it was a bit surreal but Godderson is special it is special I've got to say the new stadium looks wow but our bigger problems are staying in front of us right now I really think the only way that we can possibly get out of it is if we just become ugly I really do because we can't play any other way I do the ways I really think Anthony Gordon looks a shadow of what he was and that can be confidence Dominic Carver needs to do more and this is not this is not me calling them out or saying this is fact from what I'm witnessing you're the fella who played at the top level you can tell and know what you're up against for me Anon looks like he could be a good player but he needs to look forward more we saw that again I don't know where the issue is tremendous driving forward and then on Saturday I think there's an element of him that he maybe thinks he's better than what he is right now whereas he could he's got brilliant attributes big gallop and long legs he's obviously comfortable on the ball if he scores more goals adds to him as well but I just think he plays within himself whereas if I was a man and I'm going come on you've got to give me more that's too easy and he's not really come back looks like the same type of player that he was I think we've got two very similar players sitting there who want to get off the back foot but want to go sideways Rodden, how many times have we had a midfielder getting into the box Tim Cale, that type of player we've got no one and I think the distances between our midfield the striker, too big you know if you want to go direct get people around him no point having to winger stuck out wide when you're playing the ball direct this was my thing with it they played the 4-3-3 the midfield there's gaps so we're not even there's just too many gaps and however the striker is to be honest they haven't done this regularly even when we had Le Carchy he's got to run after himself or it runs through it's like if we're going to do that put some on the long side he's going to win it, just gamble I would have put the corey off of me just let the power and gone a bit bigger just to try something different but for some reason he obviously looks like he's not having them and supposedly today he's definitely not having them you know what in a way I'm looking at that thinking at least something's happened at least someone's shown something if someone says something then it's about time maybe a bit late but it's about time and these little things can be the catalyst of the reactions that you need I don't know how many times we had situations confrontations in the just new with players but you know what after it's finished being a ball and having a pint with them it's forgotten you know your job as a player is for 90 plus minutes is to do whatever you need to do to get a result after that if someone comes in and says you this you that don't take it personal because more often than not you might be right you might have had a crap game but I always say if you've not played well you've not got an opinion because you haven't done your own job first if you've played well then at least you've got something to say but for me if I hadn't played to the standards that I want and if someone had a pop at me more often than not I wouldn't have been happy for that time but then you know what fair enough that's the way it should be no one's saying things about someone just because they want to you know you have to have these discussions you have to sometimes see negative things as players because otherwise you'd be at the top of the league everyone's playing well sometimes some home truths do not do any harm whatever when we can see the goal we don't even look that ass and it doesn't footballers have changed for whatever reason but there's no hate it doesn't look like it it's difficult when you're a former player because people look at the goal well I was just saying that when I was a player I get it but society's changed it's different now I think when I did play we could have an argument with each other we could have a conversation and that's the thing where as now I do think players are more touchy about things they would take it a little bit more personal when it's completely not it's a big job you've got to do what you need to do in the best interest of the club not for the player they get paid really well and that's not their fault someone offers you the contact of X amount what are you going to do you're going to sign it so it's not their fault it's the way the game's gone but what we would like to see I think is a bit more of that playing for the jersey absolutely some of the names that have been mentioned to replace Frank I mean that to me again just says we haven't got a clue if it's real by the way that to me would say we haven't got a clue for the simple reason that I personally don't think he's amazing anyway but to be and this is the bigger one our players can't run it our players don't run around normally I think if he was to come in I think he'd need the pre-season that's what I've just said this before if you're bringing him in in May when it's finished and he says to the players wish what we're doing for six weeks and by the end of that six weeks we'll have a night to do it now even on the way in I was listening to talk sport and I heard someone say and I'm listening thinking are you for real do you think it is? for the manager out there right now imagine if you could turn this around well we know what it can be like I mean look what Frank had last season let's be honest we weren't great we were just scrambled winds the reason why we stayed up last season was one reason the fans it was pure and simple and it was that but at least we won three games all season right so we've got we've got to win more than that in fact we've got to win at least double of that so it doesn't as we speak right now look favourable but if you're one of the managers that's out there and you see what this could be in terms of turning it around this is so attractive the G-fans here there's not a chance of me getting it no no but that's by the bike I think it's a great job it's a brilliant club the most important thing right now and the problem I have and I think everyone has we've got the same people making the same decisions being in the manager who have consistently made bad decisions so am a confidence that they can make one well the Lord of Average says you've got to get one you've got to get one from that point of view what type of manager would you go for when you're looking at that first and foremost right now I think we need to be hard to beat I think we're too soft we're too easy to play against I don't think we have we've got a I don't think we've got an identity no not at all because I look at the team and I go what are we are we physical are we fit as where we can close see sounds of pressure are we a good counter attacking team we've got a bit of pace we don't know the times to go you know or are we a team that can play off on the back and hear teams and play through the thirds no so there's four different styles and we're not so therefore that's why I'd like someone to come in and straight away you turn around and go alright I can see what he's doing this is what we are and ultimately we've got to look at the bigger picture you know I think this manager potentially maybe won that has got an eye on this season and possibly next season wherever that's going to be and I think we have to buy I think it will be almost as fans we're going to have to buy into that not we've got this fella for a few months and then we're going to change him again I think we do have to just go and see what happens I hear you choosing then I'm hoping that they just buy a lot of averages to get one of them I do it myself but right now I think we need someone and all who's good with no money let me ask you this then because this is without giving names there's obviously a lot I'm going to name somebody I don't expect you to have mentioned difficult job at Darby no money without the points deduction loads of debut for that so he's done it with no money but I understand the experience he's a big risk of course but he's also someone you could go we are going to plan for next season as well there's other managers out there like Sean Dice who was no money at Burnley and had them a specific way don't know he loved that idea and then there's a lot in between but I'm like if you want to be exotic you can have Dominic Tedesco who's at Leipzig and he's done managing Germany and he's out of work and he's 37 so he's young and hungry and that might be more of that kind of age might be more of what we should go down I honestly couldn't sit here and go because I think pepper come in and go I agree because it is very very difficult and I think that's why I think it's such a a difficult choice for this one as well I think with Wayne he's already said no once because of the situation this situation is worse than when he said no I know there's going to be a lot of money to spend but he hasn't had any experience I think Wayne's backroom staff would be very important it won't be from an experience point of view so I think he would need someone that is experienced with him I think in terms of the challenge I don't think Wayne's ever feared the challenge so I don't think Wayne's ever feared the challenge so I don't think that would intimidate him Duncan the one thing I think with Duncan is that he's already been overlooked for the job he came in and care taken and they didn't give him the job where it could have been just as easy to have given me so they didn't they didn't want to give him me it's obvious last season they could have potentially give me till the summer and therefore I think if he was ever going to get it that would have been the time to get it they may look at something like that now to try and take pressure off them partially it is very difficult we find ourselves in a really precarious position but should we be should we be looking alright sorry this one then should we be looking for someone who just goes he might keep us up this season forget about next season or do we look at the long short term do you think obviously no he's done a job obviously the fans didn't take too much but Sam does what he says on the tin and his record is good that way but I really don't think we're going down that haven't you but I do think we have to we have to while we've still got an opportunity we have to try and do something with this it would be miraculous if we could get out of this I've got to be honest it really would you look at the stats we've only won three games all season potentially we're going to have to win seven out of 18 and the next two your first two coming in as a manager doesn't get any tougher ars on the wrong let the pool away and it almost means you've got to win every other game so it's another two games less so you can't we all are we're all here but you can't feel sorry for yourself you've got to look to be seen to try because there's no way that we can go down with a wimper and we are at the moment we are right now the players the players have really really got to look at themselves because this is not just Frank Lampard's fault absolutely not he's took the can to take responsibility and no Seamus obviously from my time there and he will certainly stand up and speak he's a great lad Seamus is best years you know are behind there's no doubt about that happens for the time the one thing he will have is a very proud proud lad and he will say things but if I'm being honest I think this dressing room needs a good shake I totally agree with you and the club does I mean we're in a situation now we'll just get on to this briefly we're in a situation, we're absolutely right we've come to a situation where another manager's gone for whatever the club hasn't helped the club's failed them as well either help him or give him the tools to at least be a little bit better at it we haven't done that but obviously you're right we've had an owner he has played for the manager he's just gone we've sure we've dealt with Gazi no last transfer window no one wanted him he didn't want him, Frank Lampard gave him about eight minutes for the rest of the season we've had a chairman who for me should really just be putting his feet up now at that age to see we've done lots on his saying why hasn't the board been made bigger and try to see if they are actually better with other voices but they haven't kept it short so therefore they're going to come into a company that loses money they're going to be under the spotlight but we do have to get changed now because I think what's happened in the last two weeks they crossed the line I don't think they can jump back to the other side now statements have made it worse it's all better on the fire and I think it seems to be anyway for a lot of fans we speak to it has gone too far now for it ever to go back to normal that's how it seems anyway I totally agree you've got the you've got the player representation you know I forget the name of it was the fans where they were on the board some of them have resigned fans forum it's a waste of time they're not getting listened to I think the reason why there's only a few people on the board is because they all bow to one man and I think that's why it's small so who's going to pull up the owner to say you're wrong that's what a board should be you should have people with you have discussions whether you like it or not it should be opinions opinions that drive the club forward not like yes men, women, wherever it is just to nod the red because the owner said you're there for a reason and it's to give an opinion and if you don't think it's right you have to stand up and say and if the owner doesn't like it tough because the football club is bigger than the owner we'll still be here a lot longer than what he was he's come into town he's rode in splashed his cash and he's failed sorry but it's been a failure so I've said it the day and all he won't be the first and he won't be the last thanks very much for trying give someone else an opportunity now that's it isn't it it is a mess it's a situation where if women of the owner come in we're going to spend 600 million quid maybe being in the Champions League the old time in that period but certainly be and certainly have a squad where you go it's like kid I see it's for the day you know my lad owner on a shit but he's like the only one kid there's no one even in our squad where you go I love him where we used to have hammers even that being chopped away we shouldn't have to spend on this amount of money not have a squad that's got a tack an exciting place it's almost like Everton have forgotten the point of what football is it's like keep it out of one and put it in the other we're great but we just pass the ball around a bit between the two but we don't effect need a box that to me drips down now it's not the same but it's all dripped down from the top for me and the owner he does need to move a shag at people even if you can't get there I want to make these the best in the country if I was the owner right now and with all the animosity and the anger that's pointed towards the people at the top if he wants to keep control of the ball which let's be honest he's got a stage in that's potentially going to be 750 million he's spent over 500 million so there's you know you're getting towards a 1.2 billion pound investment so if he's not going to walk away step aside and put people in place that are going to take the club forward revamp it, refresh it let's have ideas, let's have a plan okay if you want to stay out the way you stay out the way stay out the way for 10 years if you want to put people in there who are going to really drive the club forward different voices not yes people work with the fans against them that's what's been happening like it or not we are customers of the football club it's like a business going against its customers it seems mad it does I don't know it is a city reason I don't think I've never felt like this about the club where it's almost like them and us which is bizarre I don't think you can ever get into that I think there's only one person at stroke or there's one group of people at stroke and it's the people on the board the fans are not doing we want to support we want the best and they'll turn around and say we want the best for the club and all okay well if that's the case you're not the people to take the club forward now so let's someone else have a go but that has to come from the owner we could go down the circles but it's it's tough this is the most scariest time I've ever witnessed as an Everton supporter even when we were when I was playing and we had a couple of seasons where we were towards the bottom I never felt as worried as this we are we are in a desperate situation let me ask you this before we finish or just because you've been in that dressing room as a player at that and it was a different time you were never telling me so you would have felt it if you were any of your mates and family but as a player do you think is there a point where it is a case of luck we are really in trouble here lad we are all responsible do you see that happening because right now I feel like as a fan watching it people are just it's not sleepwalking but it's almost like there's another game next week it's alright this and this seemed to happen last season in some games it was just like we've got another one next week so put this to bed and that's what I feel like watching it as a player what would you be saying to these right now in that dressing room at the time we had a manager that would tell us in no uncertain terms if we didn't perform or we were in on it we'd have days where he'd have us in on a Sunday if we'd have a poor performance or results in the Saturday but I must admit and I think the gaffer would say this in all is that we as a group of players more often than not would his voice because we'd say it before he'd even spoke at half time so we'd come in at half time or at the end of the game and we'd be having it out with each other and the gaffer would always go into this little side room first before he came in and spoke to us and he'd be able to hear what we were all saying because there was a number of times where he'd come in and we carried on or discussion enquiry and he'd just stand there and listen and the only time he'd really step in is if it started to get a bit heated and he'd go right okay and then he would take authority then and then when he'd go so then he'd be the choir you know and that's not to say Frank Lampard or whatever the previous managers haven't done that but I think there's an element of the players being too nice one thing I'd say was that if I was in front of the players now and I'd be speaking to them I'd go tell me why you're an Everton player tell me what your value is to the team because what you might see and what everyone else might see might be two completely different things because you might think you're doing okay but what's okay Everton needs better than okay Everton needs players who are going to be sevens and eights every week not fives not scraping a six so what are you good at you know and I would I have liked to play against them all the love to play against them because right now he doesn't want any contact would I like some coming across me and winning headers no because he's brilliant in the air would I have liked to him to receive the ball because I think he needs to improve with his back to play in terms of his older play because right now Dominic Cavallun wants to go that way away from the goal rather than running towards the goal but then I would say to the midfield players how many times are you sliding balls down the side of centre backs for Dom to run on to how many crosses do you get in the game Dominic Gray how many crosses do you put in for Dom today so therefore these are just questions to make to use to your strengths Everton with Dominic Cavallun should be putting in at least 10-15 crosses a game That's his biggest attribute Of course so what's the point of his biggest attribute by far is very very good in the air he's got a fantastic spring and remember like Peter Beigrie when he was at Everton talented and I like Beigrie he's a great lad but I remember Sharpie saying the amount of times where he crosses and he checks and he goes cross and he checks and your striker is making the runs and he gets to the point where he goes well he just put the ball in and it's like at Everton don't let him down don't let your striker down We had a situation last week in the Sheldanting that led to day winning goal corner comes in and gets it out Antony Gordon for once plays the right ball so Gray and everyone is in the box and he takes a touch and he just put it in wow day break if you could just put that in early for them to run on to it we might have scored the goal the only thing I would say to that and it's totally right but if I was a defender my games here not up there so therefore are we right here are we defensively right and when not you look at the last couple of goals we're all the gaps are massive in terms of that because what happens is that you're watching the game up there rather than watching the game wait what you should be doing because if you do this bit right it's not getting there and I think there's been an element to that Walsh was like that that we lost the world's goal we didn't engage him we ended up running back at that goal so that would be the type of conversations I wouldn't have a problem saying it to him if I had to go into the gestion room right now and speak to them even now I've been a little bit critical of some of them I would not lose any sleep over it whatsoever because I'm doing it because of my love for Everton football club I want them to be better it's not like a criticism because I don't like it you haven't been playing well you haven't done this, you haven't done that well listen, you're a winger what's your job as a winger beat players put the ball in the box dribble assists so if you're not doing that why ask yourself why then are the coaches are you then showing them all this information which I'm sure they are because of the amount of information you have now are you working on it on a training ground play against one of the best crosses I've ever played against in my life David Beckham don't have to beat a man sometimes no no get a yard and whip it in but I said we could be your old day we could be your old day so we'll see anyway we'll see what happens with Everton the biggest thing is they make a decision an informed decision but relatively quickly because last season we appointed the manager on deadline and then it's like I've got four hours for the window shut what do we do now so I think Everton after with all the data or whatever it is make this decision they have to because you've got to give the guy that's coming in enough time to try and work with his team before they get to Arsenal at least a week 10 days to try and get this team into some sort of shape to try and get the ball rolling get the confidence going in terms of trying to put in a performance that might get us something out of the Arsenal game it's a long shot it's that good isn't it yes it is and we know that Arsenal necessarily don't like coming to good results good results against them so fingers crossed fingers crossed everything crossed right Al thank you very much big thanks to Alan Stoltz for coming in and giving us thoughts let us know what you think in the comments section below what should Everton do now with the manager in terms of who is the next appointment give me the reason why you think it should be Neil Warner that's right there you go, thanks for watching see you later