 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by my friend Maddie Meyer and we're gonna be talking about the history of traditional country Western drummers Maddie, what's going on man? Hey Bart, how you doing? Thanks for having me. Absolutely This is this is really cool because we've we've talked for a while and have become friends through social media and all that stuff and just I'm pumped to have you on the show because like a lot of a lot of times I can say I don't know much about this But this topic I really don't know much about not growing up as a country Western guy. So really glad to have you here Yeah, well, thanks, man. Yeah, man. I love talking about it. So where would you want to start per usual? Let's just jump right in with where does country Western drumming begin and maybe explain the difference between Country and Western and all that good stuff. Sounds good. Okay, cool Well, traditional country Western drumming got it start in the dance halls of Oklahoma, Texas rural Louisiana, New Orleans, the Midwest, California and even New York City in the late 30s and 40s with Western swing Cajun music jazz and polka and Western swing is a combination of jazz traditional string band music cowboy songs and polka and one of the most famous Western swing drummers is Smokey Dackett who was the first drummer for the Texas Playboys and even a young young Joe Morello played for the Arkansas Travelers back then It's basically jazz minus the call and response a kind of swung polka like You know picture Jean Krupa wearing spurs that kind of thing Exactly. Yeah, and Cajun music is French Canadian folk music Akkadian folk music mixed with American string band music and Creole music in Louisiana And one of the most famous drummers of this age era of Cajun swing drummers was Hershey pork chop Roy who played with Harry Schott's and then of course, you know You've got jazz drumming that started in New Orleans with the second line and trap drumming at baby dots So that that's all that so when you combine this and that's all dance hall music So when you combine this dance hall music with the hillbilly string band Country blues and spears pools of the southeast like the Carter family the Johnson brothers L. Watson and so on You get what we now know as country and Western Not to mention Jimmy Rogers who recorded with Louis Armstrong and emin miller who originally recorded love sick blues in 1925 with drums So so that's that's where the term country and western comes from, you know The the yeah, like the string band music mixed with the dance hall music Man, that's to me. It's something that I never really would have put together the jazz it seems like worlds apart jazz and sort of the string band Era of music, but man It just goes to show that everything builds off of everything else and everything is influencing all the other different kinds of music So that's just fascinating Exactly like when you think of, you know, hillbilly string band and old-time music You don't necessarily think of the drums, right? But you know The the rhythms that that that music had its own progressive traditions too So like the rhythms created by the banjos And flat footing and the bones were later kind of adapted to Into country music drumming, you know, yeah So yeah, it's rich, but you know, but then when you think of western swing and jazz, you almost always You know, think of a drum kit, you know now what um, what year like what what era are we talking about right right now? Oh, you know, so like This is you know, this is we're talking this earlier part here is I guess you could clump in with the western swing era Which you know, that's the late 30s and 40s Cool Yeah But the the truth is the drums have been part of country music tradition like long before the term You know country music existed, you know during the civil war even like Fife and drum music, you know military drumming drumming was used You know to move positions on the battlefield as well as entertain troops But many of the melodies that the fives would play were adaptations of american and english and irish folk tunes That we now refer to as old-time music and the rudimentary drumming that you know went with that music Followed the melodies very tightly. They follow the rhythm of the pipes very tightly And you know that that rudimentary vocabulary became part of you know, the syncopated Brass bands and second-line drumming in the warlands, you know, which eventually led to To development of the trap kit, you know, so that so it even like the tradition of you know fife and drum music Having that old-time background, which is such a big part of country music And then all the rudiments that went with that later inspiring You know the new orlan stuff. I mean that's that's the big connection right there for the music But that goes way that goes way back. Yeah, it's it's fascinating to me about how many of these topics kind of go back to military and army uses Of the style and I think that's true with a lot of different like even technology in the world A lot of things that you like the internet everything goes back to like the military. Yeah, it's pretty fascinating. But sure. Yeah It is it is fascinating. So moving forward then. Yeah into the thirties with the western swing kind of feel Where do we go from there? Okay, so like, you know, the you know, drumming has been part of the music longer than it has not been and in the early days Uh, there was no such thing as a country drummer. Like I said before most drummers background were in jazz Show drumming and polka. So outside of western swing in the in the forties, you know Drummers had to make it up as they went along drummers like seris coursey nashville's first studio drummer He had to make it up as he went along seris recorded with red foley Hank william passy kline and even bill monroe and the bluegrass boys now This is the late forties into the early fifties From you know from the late forties and early fifties drums were kind of a dirty word in nashville And had no place outside of novelty now. Why why is that? Because you know, they were it was becoming a brand and the brand didn't include Drums, you know the the brand included string band music and that's and that's where that kind of Stayed but really people like, you know, oh, you know drums were in a big part of country music But really leading up to it and there's only like this little seven year Period where there was, you know, no drums in country music, which leads me to You know the bass brush I call this the prohibition era of country drumming In the early fifties the base the bass brush was used to reinforce the backbeat along With the soccer them guitar in place of the drums This is where a drum head was attached to the upright bass and the bass player Would simultaneously plus the bass and strike a drum a drum head with a brush with the same hand This is heard on a lot of the early hank williams hank snow and web pierce recordings of the era You know, so I don't know why they were just like they just didn't want to have I don't know. There's really no answer to that question. It's like it's almost hypocritical Like it's like, uh, we don't want drums, but we're gonna do We're gonna turn the bass player into a drummer and my immediate kind of like, uh, practical Thought of my brain goes to like, um, is it maybe one less mouth to feed? One less person to pay in the band. I mean that might be too simple Yeah, you know, I really I don't know the full history on like why they, you know, they came up with The bass brush head, but look it up online. I mean the pictures of it are super cool Um, I only know of one bass player Uh that that actually does it It's so cool to this day. Yeah, it's a cool gimmick, you know, it'll make you stick out Man, you know, like for years before, you know, I really don't dove into the the music Um, I always just assumed that that was a drum on the recording You know when you listen to Hank Williams and Hank snow and and all the web peer stuff because like You hear the shuffle pattern and you hear the backseat But you know, obviously there's no cymbal. There's no kick and You know, I guess it could be the sound of the pick on on the strings But no that and then it turns out to be this and The most famous bass players to do that were Ernie Newton Uh lightening chance and uh junior husky Hmm Okay, yeah That's funny. They almost like they almost classify as like drummers as well. Like they're like 80% bassist 20% drummer Exactly and you know, and it's significant enough because that is the birth of the country sound The classic country sound So they have to be kind of clumped in with the drummers. Yeah for sure because they yeah And so you said there was about a seven-year period So then we get out of this kind of dark ages of the drums and move You know into the drum set In the mid fifties uh jazz drummer and national native buddy Harman developed the country shuffle beat recording with ray price And uh, he did this with a one stick and one brush And this became the standard practice for country drumming The classic example of this would be on ray prices My shoes keep walking back to you Um, this method would would be then applied to the the shuffle waltz and the 12-8 groove Yeah, so that's kind of so now we're moving they they're letting the snare drum into the music but uh It's still it emerges into the music but with a truly unique Style, you know one brush one stick it was almost like they were trying to take the whole drum set and put it into Just just the snare because you can get all those sounds out of the snare Yeah with the brush having a different texture and then the rim click now when I say one stick one brush I don't necessarily mean like Uh a big open backbeat on the snare drum although that did happen from time to time But mostly with your standard, you know rim click now What would that look like like a right your your left hand would be the stick doing the rim click and your right hand would Kind of do the brush kind of like a shuffle or what did that actually like physically? What were they what were they doing your left hand doing the rim click and your right hand's going So that's basically the very standard of country shuffles You know, they they were they were just kind of trying to figure it out, you know There was they they're like I said before there was no Outside of western swing there was no formula and they wanted to come up with something that was truly their own That's awesome. You know, yeah Cool. Yeah But buddy buddy also, you know recorded with many pop acts Including Roy Orbison and the ebbly brothers. He plays on Kathy's clown and pretty woman, you know So Yeah, you know and and and and then buddy went on to be the first call drummer in Nashville For as a member of the a team and and ended up playing on a you know, a great many of country's biggest hits, you know So basically he was a jazz drummer and his sensitivity to the music gave each tune its own unique drive So it may seem that a lot of the groove sounds similar The art of country drumming is in the details, you know drummers would create different combinations using You know two sticks two brushes one stick one brush Leaving the kick out of the a section the most important thing was to support the tune Without distracting the listener from the story and the song so the story came first And and the drummer just had to keep it moving Yeah, it's really cool how the I think the softer or like I should say the more nuance you have in your playing Not playing the kick on the first verse like you said It's just it's so impactful then the second that the kick comes in on the chorus or something Then you go. Oh, that's what he's doing. It wasn't there and now you can feel it. So very very smart Yeah, it's it's a really creative way to have there be a change Without there being a change. Yeah, it's subconscious almost I I I just I always remembered when I Was younger and listening to country music I could I mean it just seemed like the chorus has had so much more life And it was just as simple as putting the kick on one and three and then dropping it back out again During this, you know when the verse came back in Yeah, really. Yeah, you have to like fight the urge to not always do You know the one and three and the snare on two and four. It's like just Play it cool and sure you have to try it no nuts to then realize how you know Being simple is is really good. Yeah. I mean, but the cool thing about it is, you know, you get to tailor each Grooves to each song, you know, like to go with the melody or if like there's a Specific rhythm in the melody that needs to be emphasized. You can do that with a click You know or or like drop a tiny little bomb The way gene kruppel would on the bass drum just to set up like beat two. Yeah, exactly It's like it's it's like mini mini mini mini big band drumming. Yeah, kind of that's a great way to put it Yeah, which makes sense because all these guys that were doing these sessions back then were Jazz drummers so it makes complete sense. You know what you think about it It does so jumping on the side here a little bit were they This was all happening in nashville. Obviously, so Was that like the hot spot to be and everyone who wanted to be in this kind of world was moving there to be a country Drummer or was it just music in general was happening in there and they're going there to get work Well, the industry moves to nashville Uh, when they opened up all the studios in nashville like when deca came here at the qualms at hut, uh, and uh that's when nashville kind of started to take off as a The music industry capital, I guess kind of yeah, but I don't think it's I don't think it was like today Where you know people were moving here in hordes. I think there were people were coming here But I don't think it was the way it was today for sure I also I don't think that there were an abundance of drummers like You know waiting in live, you know trying to find auditions and stuff to be in bands, but but um But yes in a lot of ways this was the place but country music was popular all over the country at this time so, you know, yes nashville was made, you know, I guess Some would consider it to be the capital and it is the capital But you know it was happening everywhere for sure. Okay. Cool. That's a good good way to pick the picture Yeah Well, I guess on through the 60s, you know, uh, it wasn't until the mid 60s that drummers started becoming drummers For the sake of of country drumming For the first time there was a right and a wrong way to play country drums drummers famous drummers like drummers like mel king willy can too helen price blendavis arney adam Willie ackerman they all they all had a vocabulary to work with You know, they they this is what you do. This is how you play country drums The blueprint had basically been kind of laid out before them Which is it's just cool because it hadn't been that much earlier, you know, it wasn't that long before that it was Decided it all happened really quickly. I mean you can say this I mean think about the different kinds of music that was happening in the 50s and 60s I mean it all happened real quick. Very true. Yeah Yeah, and people were, you know, we keep this current theme keeps coming up of this that they were making it up as they came along but Around the 60s, you know, they're starting to become like this is how you play country. This is how you play rock and roll This is how you play blues, you know, it all started to find its place Yeah, you're right because rock and roll has just been going on. I guess there's more options for people to Listen to like I feel like early on it was like, well, you're gonna like jazz or you're gonna like Jazz You're gonna like, you know, I mean you're gonna like big band music. Like you're not having like now It's 50,000 different genres of every kind of music. So, um, but it's starting to branch out to that more And become more nuanced. Yeah Yeah, but then, you know, in the 60s, you know, there were Different variations of the country shuffle were being discovered such as like I don't even know how to call this group, but I call it the straight eighth country shuffle which sounds like It sounds like Is this a compound groove? Yeah And and this this groove is is interesting because It's it's it's kind of straight. It's kind of swung But it almost sounds like a surf beat with the rim clicks instead of an open snare And this is I I don't know if they were trying to compete with rock and roll or what probably, you know Yeah, but uh, the pioneers of this groove Would be glenn davis and arnie adams who uh, we're working with uh, george jones and johnny paycheck and The best example of that groove is on the song. Uh, love bug It's just this funny like it's straight eighth, but it's it's It's swung. I love it. It's one of the one of the weirder grooves of all time, but it's so cool Yeah, it's uh, it sounds more modern from what i'm just kind of gathering from from not actually hearing that song But it's like it sounds like like you have to compete you have to Push forward and become more more relevant than you know to stay to stay hip and that's kind of what this groove is And again just kind of I think what happened was when you had a singer and he played guitar or she played guitar and They had a specific style of strumming Uh, whether it was more strong or more like open fanning of the flat top like I think the drummer Was real country drummer back then was real sensitive to that and would try to walk in with that person's right hand. So If if they if they had a more swung pattern, they played a more swung beat if they had a straighter Thing they played a straighter beat, you know, maybe if they were a bluegrass guy Um, which has its own rhythm. They'd have to kind of They have to go with him. Yeah or her. Yeah, because otherwise it would be just like a competing kind of mess of of rhythms at different times exactly Exactly exactly And then the you know, the mid 60s different influences started coming to Nashville and this is when Uh, the great drummer jerry carrigan moved to Nashville from mussel shoals, alabama And he brought a blues and r&b influence to Nashville And uh, he worked along with buddy harman and learned from him But uh, he went on to you know, kind of usher in the straight eighth era of Of country drumming and became, you know, one of nashville's first Call session drummers. Uh, he plays on uh behind closed doors by charlie rich and uh, when you're hot you're hot by jerry Reed Those are such great tunes, but this is when things start You know other influences start coming into the music that's not related to basically not related to string band music which is the The base of all of this music. This is when rock and yeah Yeah, I was gonna say like like what influences like what's what's changing? Oh, you know, like we were saying before, you know, jazz the sound of jazz is changing rock and roll Now we have the now we're throwing the Beatles into the mix Um, you know, just there was so much music coming on That and people, you know, soul music like I said Jerry coming jerry carrigan coming from mussel shoals and the blues and r&b It all just started to find its way That's awesome. Um, this brings me to like the Now you have the baker's field shuffle the baker's field california The baker's field shuffle was developed by willy can too and this this shuffle pattern is a straighter tighter version of Harmon's nashville shuffle and the The quintessential example of this is on buck owens is tiger by the tail And it's it's kind of like the normal country shuffle pattern, you know, the But it's like a It's just a little straighter. Yeah, it's it's straighter and swung at the same time I love it because It wasn't a full-on. Okay. Now we're going to play straight eight. It was well The bass and the kick are kind of playing a lot straighter and the high hat From one like two beats to the next sounds a little bit Tighter and straight eightier than the last and it It's just an interesting little moment if you listen to country drumming from, you know The the 50s through the 70s you could just hear the the high hat Get straighter and straighter and straighter and straighter until it just becomes You know full-on straight eight, you know rock drumming basically Yeah, yeah, really and that's it's kind of funny though because like the high hat kind of has that Throughout its history like it starts out with Just being non-existent then it comes in a little bit more Then it becomes a timekeeping sort of element Then it becomes the main the mainstay of all music So I think yeah, it's cool how country music isn't uh, isn't exempt from that at all It's just like the high hat kind of slips in there and becomes like we all need our high hat to be uh steady The high hat was the main in the main symbol and the country drummers setup You know they for the longest time they never really crashed a symbol at or even would You know, like, you know, it's typical to go to the ride on the b-section Now maybe drummers do that today with country music, but back then You didn't even open up the snare on the b-section You played the same beat and you stopped when there was a stop on the tune and you emphasized that you needed to emphasize And you just played the high hat and you only crashed the symbol If it really called for it and if it really meant something or if it really helped Tell the story interest. So the high hat was probably the most important symbol in in country music Wow, that's cool because it's funny because I was just reading about how um Much much earlier on but about how like, uh, baby Dodds Didn't like the high hat didn't want anything to do with it couldn't play with it and it's like it's so different I guess everyone has their own different, uh It's it's so many different little variables and in the different kinds of music So what are the drum sets looking like? Um, so we go through so we're in the 60s now Is it basically turned into more of a standard kind of, uh, you know One high tom one floor tom snare high hat crash ride kind of situation or is it anything kind of unique? basically high hat snare rack tom floor tom and a ride and a bass drum no crash symbol and sometimes no floor tom. I mean I've seen I've watched so many videos of the era of a different live performances and the toms are set up But I've never really seen anyone hit them, but I always wondered what that was why those drums were there and Which brings me to this other point is that throughout the 60s country drumming's western swing roots remained a very important part of the country music formula And drummers were given a little bit more room on instrumentals or hillbilly jazz And a lot of times they would play these tunes to bring the singer on to the stage or to kill time between sets And this is where the drummer would use those toms It just so happens that a lot of these videos are of just when the lead singers out there So they're really not using them a whole bunch And that brings me to one of my favorite drummers of the era, uh jack green He was known as the singing drummer and he was the drummer for urnus tub in the texas troubadours Uh, and they were you know country music, but also very steeped in the western string western swing tradition And jack even had his own hit song as a singer and it was called there goes my everything Uh, and you can hear him singing, you know, he sings like a drummer I know you just said that was but or he was mainly doing backups in the band that he was playing in, right? No, well back then in country music It was you know, it was typical that there was you know a star in this case that star was You know one of country music's greatest musicians of all time bernice tub and his band was You know all stars of of their instruments, uh, you know one being buddy emin is the great pedal steel player um So the star would come out and sing, you know their their songs and Like I said before in between they let the band use some instrumentals. This was especially the case for The troubadours, but they've also let jack green sing a few tunes to either bring urnus on or Or you know urnus took a break or something and this was typical not just in this band, but um With george jones and and and so on. Yeah, that's neat. You know, it um, it kind of makes me think too I guess it sort of falls in the country uh category there, but i'm a big levon helm fan With the band. Oh sure and yeah, they're obviously more rock and roll but have that kind of southern rock even though I think most of them are canadian but um It's cool though because he has that he's a singing drummer who's got a very cool feel um Obviously influenced from a lot of these country drummers and musicians and so it just Permiated the culture then sure. Yeah, and levon grew up listening to the grand old opera on the radio when he was a kid So that makes sense was a bit that was a big influence. I mean, he's from is he from arkansas He's from yeah, I think he is because I know like robbie robertson and all the other guys I think they're from canada Yes, he's the only like um, uh, yeah, yes, he's from in the in the band. He's from elaine arkansas born in 1940, right? Yeah, that's right. His book his book this wheels on fire Uh talks a lot about how the grand old opera was a big influence for him So yeah, so he definitely grew up listening to these guys You know, that's a good jumping off point there So the grand old operae obviously has a very big influence on a lot of people and I mean I don't know if i'm jumping ahead here, but that is something that has to be talked about Yeah, oh, definitely. We'll get to that. Okay. Um Well, let's just wrap up the 70s real quick. Um, so So basically, you know the 60s was a time of change and and music and drumming and politically and socially and whatnot. So different influences were making its way off throughout Music across the board, but uh in the late in the 70s In the late 60s drummer larry london moved to nashville from motel And he brought the whole like soul thing to to nashville Uh, and now, you know, this is now at this point the straight eighth grooves starts taking you know, this the straight eighth grooves is Has almost taken place in the shuffle and the toms and the crash some will become less taboo In the 70s country drumming kind of went disco and a little bit more rock and all of a sudden you're here and muted toms and stronger backbeat and drum fill and four on the floor and you know, a bigger sound Today this this error is referred to as a disco country or on a gig So we'll lean back to you and be like play the whale and be and they just mean kind of play this chunk it's kind of chunky like it's Again swung straight backbeat. It's it's like swung disco. I don't know that, you know Yeah, yeah, that's funny that that a lot of music in that era including like you think a band's like kiss Everyone had like their like disco songs. It's like it affected Sure, but you but that's what's popular Yeah, yeah, and country music was no different, you know As you as you can see from the beginning of our conversation to now It moved with the time that it kept up with what was cool. Yeah, um, and uh, And disco was no no exception. I guess Unfortunately or fortunately depending on what side you're in Yeah, you know, I kind of I kind of love I grew up. I mean my mom was really into disco I kind of grew up loving. Yeah, at least having some sort of soft spot for those I have no big problem with it. It gets hated on a lot, but there's some good songs, you know, it's It's a country drumming disco beat is like You know, I guess like a boot Like that whole thing with the open hi-hat. Yeah, well imagine that but just not opening the hi-hat That's country. That's the country disco beat. It's like doing the same thing but without The the opening of the hi-hat. I mean, it's so funny that like four on the floor was basically how drumming started Almost always. Yeah, and then it went through this period where it was turned into one and three and variations on that and then The 70s happened and now four on the floor is back and it's way up in the mix And now music sounds the way it does. Yeah, so that's It's going full circle It has it has and man, there's so many other drummers to talk about throughout the you know, the history of country music And I I feel bad for whoever I left out because you know, a lot of guys like, you know, kenny Malone uh, paul english who drummed with uh Uh, willy melton and uh, stuffy smith who recorded with connie smith and richie albright who is kind of the the disco country King played with whale and jennings for the longest time. So there's so many guys What I always hope is that people can then Do further research and kind of look into the bands and and uh artists we're talking about and um And find out their their own favorites, you know musicians to listen to um But there's just so many musicians like like like we spoke on the phone before but like Elvis, you know, like he's country and he gets into the kind of more rock and roll stuff, but people like that who just heavily influenced stuff with like dj fontana and and um In all these different drummers who are Really shaping the way a lot of people will grow up and uh be influenced Exactly. Yeah, but I guess when it comes to drumming the like the under Country drumming the undisputed champion of it is Buddy Harman who we mentioned before. Okay, that's good. He's the Yeah, he's the you know, he's definitely one of the the big, you know, big names up there with Uh gene krupa, you know, he's just like he's just you know, he's the quintessential country drummer for sure Cool. Yeah, he uh, I just googled when I'm here. He has the he has the look You know what I mean? There's just like certain people where you see him and they just embody Everything about that that time Sure. I mean, he looks kind of rockabilly. He does. He was a jazz drummer Yeah, I mean, I mean but what we consider in 2019 to be rockabilly was just how people dress Yeah, it's all kind of like you got to you got to put that into perspective of like no, that was not rockabilly That was just day daily life. Yeah, I mean, I think they only made black Wayfarer sunglasses So I'm pretty sure Yeah, um Only short sleeve button-down shirts that were rolled up with a pack of cigarettes in it. Yeah And and and jeans only came in one or two lengths. So you just rolled them up. You know, that's yeah That's funny All right. Well, you want to let's talk about the the granola. Yeah, yeah, this is this is so this is the most infamous story surrounding the drums and country music uh, it says that drummers had to play behind a curtain and It's funny when you ask who was the first drummer on the opera and many say bob wills The last time I checked bob wills wasn't a drummer He was a band leader And you know, one of the most important western swing band leaders of all time So it it doesn't make sense when you ask who was the first drummer in the opera bob will Okay, well, he doesn't play the drum. Yeah, not a drummer Not a drummer. Um, and you know, the grand old opera started in 1925 as a string band show Uh broadcast on w sm to uh a national tendency to rural country folks with no drums And when bob will showed up With the texas playboys to play the opera in 1944 The powers that they refused to let bob use his drummer and bob was a big star Perhaps a bigger star than even the opera at the time Now this is 19th. This is the 40s now Kind of step back in time a little bit and the story goes That when the playboys were setting up the drums were placed in the wings behind a curtain after much discussion And bob supposedly yelled out, you know, drag those damn things out here They went on to play the show And that's kind of the lore and legend behind bob wills and the drummer on the opera for the first time Now a lot of people give bob the credit for being the first to use drums on the opera, but uh Bandleader peewee king from the midwest He also claims to be the first to use drums on the opera And that in fact bob wills was the one that had to play behind a curtain and his drummer didn't So, you know, this is if it was peewee, we're talking, you know, the late 30s and uh, you know early 40s Also, if it was peewee, apparently he was asked to not mention the drums over the air You know, don't don't mention that there was a drummer at all I mean like why is there such a uh, I guess it's the tradition, but it's this like Were they I mean, why why wouldn't they mention it over the air? Would it just be out of fear of Kids growing up to be drummers Maybe it was a good thing. I don't know Man, I don't know why uh, it just You know the the the opera suddenly this the opera suddenly was this big show And they had a formula that worked and became very popular Yeah, I just don't think they wanted a mess with that yet change is scary Yeah, and that that formula just did not You know include the drum kit and the drum kit was a big part of Other music at the time I suppose but it just wasn't what they thought, you know, with how they saw The the the operas, I guess brand For lack of a better word And you know, we don't and it's funny too because You know, we don't know exactly who the first drummer was it's still Surprisingly up to debate. We also don't know what song he played How many piece drum kit was used the name of the drummer or in fact he did or did not play behind the curtain so Got it. It's wild It's almost like, you know, that famous story of Pete seeker With the axe trying to turn the power off when bob dillon went electric It's it's a similar sort of, you know, this image of Pete seeker Chopping the power cable, you know, it's kind of the same sort of thing So the first drummer on the opera could be peewee's drummer harold McDonald Uh, or it could be bob wilson's first drummer smoky dachas or bob's second drummer johnny edwards or Somebody else. We don't know man. Yeah. Wow. You know, yeah the timing of this is kind of interesting because as you said other Kinds of music obviously had huge, you know, they were drum heavy and like, you know, I think late 30s 40s We're talking like the height of gene krupa being in movies and buddy rich and it's this is like So it was this isn't some like very primitive time where there were no drummers I mean, this was uh, but country to me again kind of looking from the outside is very steeped in tradition So I think that seems like it plays a big part in it Yeah, but also I mean The things you mentioned buddy rich gene krupa. This is urban settings. You know, this is new york city. This is california Yeah That's you know, this that's not good point, you know, rural country folks. Yes, you know Yeah If you're in and you might not know this but like if I'm a young kid In rural apalachia, I'm somewhere and I want to learn how to play music. I guess it would be much more likely that my Dad or my grandpa or grandma or mom would have A fiddle or a guitar Sure versus having a drum set. So I guess it's also just it's not readily. There's no music stores It's not readily available. You it's probably more difficult to get in. Yeah. Okay. Yeah You know, maybe your family knew a bunch of tunes that they wrote or they were religious tunes or Yeah, as we know a lot of country music and a lot of blues music are secular words written to You know spiritual music So, you know, that's that was passed. I'm sure that was passed down a lot of ways the way the drums were passed down and and uh In new walls, you know, yeah, you learn from the guy the people who came before you And you know, there weren't a lot of drum kits laying around in apalachia, but like we mentioned before Flat footing which I don't know if you ever heard flat footing, but it's a rhythm It's almost like tap dancing and it creates this kind of like rumbly Almost like tap like I said, but kind of rumbly. Yeah I got you out. Yeah. Yeah. And where does like Like I'm probably thinking like like the washboard or like plain spoons That Fall into this. I mean, because that's kind that's percussive. Is that just a different category? Um, well, not really. It's just, you know, that's more in the I think I would say the country blues um Side of things, um I mentioned him before but l wassen he plays the bones with the johnson brothers on some uh uh on some tracks and The one this one song of the waltz and you really hear You know the country waltz It's his beginnings in there rhythmically Um, so yeah, there were different things the bones the washboard. I suppose Maybe not so not as much. I mean, I feel like that may have come later. I'm not sure. I'm just guessing. No. Yeah Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but the bones, you know, yeah, actually, I I'm I've been so inspired by the bones That I'm I'm I'm in the process of finding my own set. Um, there's this really cool version, uh, of alabama jubilee by uh, red foley And he has this bones player on it, uh, frances craig who is a uh, a kind of showband Leader, I'm not even sure he was a drummer, but he plays on that and it's so cool. And then of course l watson I just It's a it's a cool. It's a fun thing. It's like a little compact drum kit kind of well. Yeah I was going to say what are so what are the bones? Why are they called the bones? What what's a little more detailed? Well, they're literally The bones are literally they're two handheld instruments That that are literally a bone shaved down to be and you'd hold two in each hand Similar to the way you would actually hold a chopstick where one is stationary and the other one kind of smacks around it and it creates kind of a clickety-clackety kind of like Gotcha That kind of thing. Yeah, basically. Yeah, that's awesome. So many cool little things so many things man. It's just so funny. Yeah um, so yeah, so Drums on the opry. We'll let's finish that whole story. Yeah, um, yeah So, you know drums kind of remained out of sight on the opry in hay riot and the Louisiana hay rides throughout the 40s and 50s um It said that buddy Harman who we mentioned before and harold weekly had to perform behind a curtain on the opry Uh as did dj fontana who we mentioned before um on the Louisiana hay ride in the early 50s and the hay ride was The first to use a full drum kit by 1954 as dj became a member of Elvis's band So the drums are starting to make its way onto the opry I mean, you know in more, you know, not by opry, but just into country music. Yeah So as I talked to glenn davis Um glenn davis started drumming with the opry in 1959 Uh, and I asked him about the curtain and uh, he told me that he had never had to play behind a curtain And he started playing there in 1959 He also seemed a little bit surprised when I brought it up And he was like, I don't even know what you're talking about like what curtain, you know, and this is This is kind of a famous Country drummer. He played he was a member of the jones boys I mentioned it before is kind of being the guy that One of the guys that created the straight eighth country shuffle. I mean, he he was like, I don't Like, I don't know. I read this all the time about the this curtain. I don't I don't really know Uh, and he also told me that he remembers going to the opry in the late 50s like around 57 And seeing buddy and harold on stage So by the by I guess at least by the late 50s Dr Snare and grushes were officially allowed on stage And then, you know by the 70s when the opry moved from the ryman to opryland They started using the full drum kit So yeah, you don't know but like a lot of other guys also claimed to be the first to use a full drum kit on the opry W. S. Holland with johnny cash. He claims to be the very first willy ackerman the great drummer He they say that he was the first to use the full drum kit with jerry reed and 68 Which we know is not entirely true If you you know if you take into account bob oils and sure and pee we there was a drum kit back then But then there was this whole chunk and that whole chunk is from 1944 to 1968 But there was no drums on the opry Crazy it is crazy. But of course people went to uh, it's not a bad thing But like, you know, you know and sometimes your memory really can trick you and go I think I was the first like I don't think they're trying to lie but No, no, a lot of people trying to say they're first I love that there's just no like actual answer No, you know And I and I I've talked to a lot of people about it and they were like man the best thing to do is just kind of lay out all the facts and That is the story as to who the first was it that you know, it's all these facts Just lay them out and help people find out or we figured out someday But that's basically it but as far as the drums and the curtain go I think that maybe it happened a few times or for a while Um, but I don't think it's as significant as people like to make it out to be Sure I have seen pictures of drummers on stage with a snare But I haven't seen one photo of a drummer playing behind a curtain So Interesting There's that Yeah Yeah And it would they have multiple shows a day there or was it just in the evenings like on the weekends or what was the Oh man You know because I'm trying to think maybe it was Multiple times they did it for a week three times a day and they were like just move onto the stage or something You know Sure. Yeah, I mean I I probably went I mean I've read it in enough books at this point about Buddy Harman having to play behind a curtain that I would almost say that Yeah, it happened and there's an interview with DJ Fontana where he mentioned the curtain and describes the curtain on the Louisiana hayride. Okay So they definitely did play behind the curtain, but Again, I just don't think it's like That Who knows, you know, I mean also the Louisiana hayride and the opry You know, Louisiana, Tennessee. I mean, there are both big country music shows Yeah Happening around the same time that you know Um The hayride didn't last as long as the opry the hayride was considered kind of a stepping stone to the opry in some ways Although I'm sure a lot of people would not, you know, wouldn't like that very much, but So, yeah, we don't know but I've read it enough to say, okay, there was a curtain Who was the first to use the curtain? I don't know. Who was the first drummer in the opry? We don't know Yeah, all I know now is that the drums are fully embraced With many tomtoms and many cymbals and even a second snare drum Yeah Now it's just all bets are off and it's just like it's a it's hard to differentiate from rock drumming to arena You know, I mean now things are huge and it's it's uh It's the level playing field for everyone Sure, and that's you know, and that's why you know after the 70s and country drumming I've as rock Started, you know 70s rock and 60s rock. I think it's significantly different, right? Yeah So the sensibility the sensibility that was then brought to other styles of music to compete with that, you know Changed the way the drums sound changed the way the volume of the band And you know took out a lot of subtleties. It wasn't about subtleties It was about power and volume and moving forward. Sure Yeah, that's the same thing goes for country drumming. Cool. All right, maddie Well, why don't you tell us? Why don't you tell everyone where they can find you and just like a little bit about you and How they can keep up with you online and check out gigs you're doing and all that good stuff Great. Yeah, man. Um, well, um, I have my own little website, uh, maddiemyre.com And you can find out where I'm playing with or who I'm playing with and working with and I've been kind of just sticking around Nashville mostly these days playing You know gigs and doing session work Hit the road a little bit here and there You know for years I played with pokey the fudge and and that that gig was uh, I gotta say that that was a you know That was kind of a challenge too because it was you know western swing one song would be polka one song would be You know rock or soul and it was a real nice mix of all the stuff and and I've always been in love with that so You know, I I play a lot of I get called do a lot of gigs where it's western swing and jazz and and uh traditional rock and roll and rockabilly and kind of all the Dead genres sure so to speak. So so yeah, you know, uh on instagram um My uh instagram name is maddiemyre drummer Uh, as you can see where I'm playing around town and um, yeah, just that's about it basically Cool. I'm really glad to have you here because obviously you're a younger guy working in the world of music and you have a clear appreciation and um, kind of a thirst for knowledge For the world of music that you're living in which is country Of all the varieties. So I think that's really important that you know What you're doing and the history of it? Well, thanks, man. I've been enjoying it so far and I hope to keep on Well, thanks for taking the time to talk to us today And uh, I recommend everyone goes and finds maddie myer on uh social media and his website and all that good stuff Matt, thanks, man. Thanks for having me bart and keep up the good work. Talk to you soon. All right. Bye. Bye If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast