 So, thank you to those of us who thank you to those of us is that would that be correct yes we're joining us for the first time. This is the second time that we've held the hyper ledger meetings and as you probably know already it's according to a geographic logic so that one meeting time is good for people. First of the US and also continental Europe and then the other time is good for the West Coast and Asia and Africa because I know we have some some members in all of those later locations. So what I wanted to do very quickly was to first of all get us to introduce ourselves, because even though some of us are familiar we already know that we have some people joining us today who don't know each other. So my name is David McFadden, I'm faculty at UCLA, and I teach in several departments so comparative literature and musicology and digital humanities. So I'll just go through the list according to the, the order in which they appear on the screen so Kyle, quick word about who you are and what maybe where you are. Yeah, I have an early stage startup in the Vancouver ecosystem working with new ventures BC, and I developed a platform that JavaScript platform that merges databases and script as a hybrid. So that works really well with API systems. I'm now working on a initial product that is artist audience interactions will help with frictionless tipping. And NFTs will eventually fit into the picture but maybe you're so off I don't know when but, you know, we'll start early. Sebastian. Good evening everyone. So, just a quick introduction for the three roles that I, or three heads that I wear on the one hand, I'm the chairman and co founder of the ICC foundation. So, four years ago we worked started working on an identifier for digital media assets that could be generated from the media assets themselves, and which is currently investigated by ISO in working group on identification. The second role is that I am an entrepreneur and consultant in the media industries for the last 15 years, having mainly worked in book publishing as in startups regarding digital distribution. And since four years I'm working on blockchain related projects for in this media environment. And since half a year, I'm also a researcher academic researcher at the University for applied science and Germany, working on my PhD on blockchain in the cultural industries and NFTs. Who's next Hamilton. Good evening everybody. This is Hamilton Jordan from New York City. I'm a consultant at Deloitte focus mainly on analytics and cognitive in the media and entertainment space. I'm actually the lead for eminence for our team to blockchain group here. So I'm new to the specialist group and happy to meet everybody. Thanks. Hello everybody. It's a pleasure to meet you all. Thank you again David for hosting and inviting me. I started about in 2016 with David the blockchain at UCLA initiative. And then left that and went to co-found a nonprofit, which was the Los Angeles blockchain lab which was a partnership of different centers at UCLA University of Southern California University of California Irvine la city la county and then leading businesses in our area including Panasonic and Lamborghini to name a few. And our focus was helping to build a thriving blockchain ecosystem in Southern California. And I also am a when we have several social impact focus initiatives as well we primarily work with the business, academic and government leaders were less community facing facing and more work with individuals from those entities that I mentioned above. To help them either work on blockchain related projects and we would bring in students and researchers so that's what we did for Lamborghini. And we basically help educate and provide resources for those leaders within our ecosystem. And then I am a co-founder of a startup and I have very exciting news we've been our goal was to help artists entertainers amateur athletes and influencers to fundraise for their project, grow their communities and market using tokens and also obviously blockchain. And then our great news is as of last week, we were pinged by the drummer from guns and roses to help create NFTs for some of his music that he has created on himself himself so I'm now in the midst of all of the NFT activity and excited to work with all of you. Great and that leaves John. Hello. My name is John Bauer. I'm currently in Oakland and work at Pandora music streaming service here in the US been interested in blockchain probably since about 2016 and then how it could apply to music industry stuff have dabbled in a bunch of experiments but here for the conversation and see where it goes. So nice to meet everyone. Fantastic. Just to rattle through the the official stuff this will be the only part that is repetitious so for those guys who are those of you who are here for the very first time. This is just to bring you up to speed with the way that we'll be arranging the meetings in the future. So first of all we had to meet up with the help of meet up. And you can see based on the link that's in the agenda the kind of issues that came up I don't particularly want to run through them now but to a large degree they they duplicate what we'll be talking about today. And one of those is NFTs so I yesterday attended an online discord event, a live stream, an audio stream, discuss discussing some of the pros and cons of applying NFTs to the entertainment business, and I put all of those links in the agenda. So, so once again I won't bore you bore you with those now but you can see the kind of things that came up on that is over 100 people attended so as a general snapshot of the matters that struck people is interesting that that's the place to look. So regarding minutes, I'm not a big fan of bureaucracy at all so if nobody if everybody's okay, I won't provide detailed minutes what I'll do is, first of all the recording of every meeting goes up anyway I can certainly tag it if people want me to just put in marks, as to where particular themes come up but I'm happy, or to be honest I'd rather send you a summary every time of what we talked about so sort of a pro summary as opposed to classic minutes. So next topic you know why we're meeting every two weeks as I said because geographically one time suits some people one time suits the other although I don't see anybody here from Asia or Africa so we've been let down by entire continents and hopefully there'll be more people joining us next time from those locations. So hyperledger are keen for us to start up a lab hyperledger lab if people are interested let me know because that's slightly something more of a team endeavor, which would just means we get a dedicated get get hub account and a certain degree of support allocated to the work that we decide to do the closing date is coming. Very quickly and isn't the next few days for hyperledgers mentorship programs if any of you have a student or just a maybe let's say a junior colleague to whom you'd like to give a grant to work on something of relevance to what we find collectively interesting there's money for that I'm told it runs to about $5 or $6,000 so if anybody thinks that that money could help somebody who's sort of a future expert that's one way to make it easier for them to do so maybe to grab the money now but use it in the summer let's Next thing in terms of where we meet obviously we've got a choice of platforms so this is where we're operating for the moment but Heidi you said you had the idea of using clubhouse which I've started to use quite recently myself so what's the thinking there. Yes, and so clubhouse I've spent the past two weeks on just getting involved. It's been quite an eye opening experience to hear the blockchain community and or those that are wanting to get into blockchain and now when I say blockchain for the most part these are either Bitcoin cryptocurrency, or the other group is talking NFTs. I would. And I brought this up to David, we were thinking possibly about hosting a clubhouse event where we would bring in leaders within the space that are working on something innovative. And so for example, we could bring in the CIO from MGM studios they had launched a blockchain based product to help protect their IP in their distribution. I think that they're also looking at NFTs who isn't today. And they could perhaps be the we could do sort of a fireside chat around that. And then maybe depending on how successful that is host something every other week or once a week or partner with other clubhouse groups. The one thing though that I'm not sure David is, I think clubhouse it's totally open. So that means it would be open to the entire whoever is on clubhouse to access it. So if privacy is important, then you know, there's some areas around there and my other concern is I'm not quite sure how to market to make sure that we have enough people in the audience. Because the last thing I would want to do is for us to host something and have more people on the panel than there are in the audience. So those are some things that I need to get some clarity around, but would love any feedback. Are you sure that you sure that the clubhouse is completely open I'm pretty sure the homepage has that same. We're in beta. Go away and have an iPhone clubhouse is only iOS. So that would preclude that would exclude any Android users. And I believe you still need an invite. It's not a unless they've opened it up now at this point. Also, your discourage from recording anything. So, unlike these calls we wouldn't be able to record the conversation. But certainly, there's plenty of people on there for interesting discussions. I've got five invites, if anybody wants one. So if anybody is keen to investigate it then just just let me know. And I probably should have put clarity around that what I meant is, if we host a session or room on clubhouse, then anyone who's already a member of clubhouse I think can just enter that room. Okay, so a logical extension of Heidi's observations then actually is the last point in official business before we open it up, which is with whom or with whom would we like to hear, because obviously, different speakers will be a direct personal professional benefit to different people. So I was approached by this guy the Frenchman, Patrice Pujol, who recently published a book about I that's what I linked to in the agenda, but he recently published a book about using blockchain in the Chinese film industry. So that just giving the size of that market that struck me as an interesting guest but is anybody you think we should invite because I'd be happy to do it. Unless of course you happen to know these people already. Anybody have any suggestions. John, would you be interested in speaking. I would I don't know. I don't know what about. But be happy to talk about what I know could be gardening or you know whatever. Sorry I was going to say we can either just have you as if you like as a mini guest. So we could give you some time and space within the meetings or if you'd like more something more expansive than we could advertise it separately. Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to participate in anything to be honest, I just don't you know just to be clear I mean besides the experiments that I ran at work. I don't have a ton of recent experience so I don't know. If I have the expertise to speak on anything authoritatively but I'm happy to participate in whatever we, you know, whatever we do. So we just just bear that in mind will hunt down people. If nobody feels particularly inspired and then we'll just put those names out for discussion and selection or rejection, but whatever you would like to get from whoever who whoever you would like to hear from that's the correct grammar. Don't feel shy and please let me know because the more variety and sort of the more the wider net we cast the better. Any question over and above the issue of hosting which I'll get to in just a second. So this is primarily for the Hamilton and for Kyle. What is it you would like to see this project become because what you'll notice is I just put up some of my work as a suggestion because I thought that what it could become would be a tool of general benefit. I have a huge audio collection about two million audio files so it's if you like the history of the Russian recording industry from whatever happened 20 minutes ago to the beginning of the 20th century I gave the donation to a large museum in Los Angeles so I was proposing you take that audio collection and then from that spin out to possible interfaces or tools one would be designed for a museum or a gallery so in other words, an archival public facing entity and then the other one would be something that was dealing with live recording so you would have additional functionality such as let's say you know the NFTs and micro payments etc etc etc. But if there's anything that you would like the project to become become please let me know but as it stands today what were you hoping that this group might do, or what might it create. I can jump in here first. So I've recently been only just recently gotten involved. So I'm really here on a just kind of listen and learn mode because any involvement that we have to do I have to involve a lot of additional folks to discuss what we're able to share and what we're able to do. So, at this moment, I am, you know, just kind of going with the flow and seeing what opportunities there are for me to add value. So what's what's Deloitte's mission at the moment can you could you possibly sketch the kind of interests that the company might have. Is it purely from an accounting point of view or is it an industry specifically interesting. Yes, so I'm in particularly in a media group. So my purview is purely within telecom media and entertainment and pretty narrowly focused more so on the media and entertainment side than on the telecom side. I would say that the firm isn't looking at blockchain in a bunch of different ways. That's purely where the group that I'm working with is focused on. Because you know there's quite a lot of work going into blockchain. Unfortunately, I don't think I can share any of the work that we're doing. I think the idea, at least from my perspective is to really get a pulse on kind of where the technology is going and what sort of additional research we might need to do. And I have put out some feelers on my side to see if there's any interest in anyone bring, you know, some knowledge to the table or being able to share some things that we've done in the marketplace. Okay, good. We'll learn hopefully we can give you something to something of interest to consider as well. Absolutely. Would you be willing to say it's the last question if I'm sort of dancing around the edge is there a particular interest in film or music or is it just the actual the technology that's potentially applicable to all of them. So I think it's, it's a little bit of both. The technology specifically where we've seen more movement recently and by movement I mean, I'm speaking anecdotally from just conversations that I've had with other folks. It has been more active recently on the topic, but we're seeing applications being shared across industries across functions. So just because something is initially being thought of for a particular industry doesn't necessarily mean that it's limited only to that. So, you know, at this point, you know, we have a book of, you know, some applications, practical applications that we've, you know, thrown around as ideas. But that's all they are right now and there's no engineering there's no money or anything behind it. But that's not to say that that's going to be that way forever. So it sounds like you have more of an investigative role at the moment. Thank you. Kyle, how about if you could tell us more about your work because you're the it sounds like the deepest into the NFTs and then if you could also maybe into what you hope to get out of the group so that whatever we do serves you in the best possible way. Yeah, I think I mentioned NFTs, especially just because it's a topic of today and my reference point for NFTs is crypto kiddies. So I was paid attention and I went to the meetings when it blew up and that kind of thing and Vancouver and everyone was really excited and but that's my context so it seems like it's developing but it's still in this kind of inchoate state so I'm just more curious about I guess investigative kind of like kind of like Deloitte when it comes to the NFTs. But I was watching a DDEX credit creator credit summit. And the guy who runs it he said, is anyone doing blockchain for all these people doing these startups for DDEX. And everyone was silent. No one's working on blockchain connected with DDEX. So I don't DDEX. It seems to be the biggest player right now in that area, but there are other ones as well so I think that these standards organizations for music, especially the ones that are taking PMA and all those other. I was in the music industry about 10 years ago and music publishing and I laugh so I'm kind of noting up again. So yeah, so those have seemed to DDEX seems to be consolidating but Sebastian I'm sure knows way more than me. No, okay. Yeah, anyway, I thought maybe, but in a case that's that's something I would be really interested in. And if this this group saw how hyper ledger could work with credits for people on productions. I'm not interested in mine in that era. The work that we experimentally did was more around rights ownership, but me personally I'm also very interested in the credit side of things. Yeah. How do you see Kyle how do you see the NFT space at the moment do you consider it promising or overhyped or. Yeah, no no it's definitely promising. It's just because of things like DDEX. Those are way more efficient. So they have some issues that they know that block ancient blockchain can help them with. And then companies like Spotify, if they're satisfied with that, then that's kind of a good enough fix right now so I kind of feel like NFTs. When they have a, I don't really know I mean someone can come up with a great product but it doesn't seem like there's anything right there right now it seems like it's just more traditional metadata information supply chain stuff that's going on right now. And if NFTs haven't really become part parcel, but Heidi's mentioned something that you know I didn't know about with some some musicians that are pushing limit. So, so I just, yeah, I don't I'm not I don't I'm not perfect on the way to land I just haven't really other than crypto kiddies I haven't been really, it seems like it's just kind of iterations of that underlying concept and hasn't really poured it over to music. Well, yeah, whereas we're with the, I know what hyper ledger is, and I know what DDEX is and I see how DDEX wants some utility value from hyper ledger that's pre existing so it just really is a matter of connecting organizations and getting a working group to start building together then which is more inventive and and requires R&D, which NFTs I think is that one R&D. What some, what's something that we could do that would help you. Well I connect with DDEX for instance, I can't remember the guy's name right now, I'll talk my head, but he's the. Yeah, anyway, I'll just contact you later with this particular individual he's also linked in. I'll send you the link to that credit summit and I'll also try to find the exact place where all these startups are saying what we're working with this new standard for DDEX but none of us are working with how that could also integrate with a decentralized ledger but all of us are really interested because we see how that could be valuable to have a decentralized information supply chain so everyone knows that there's value there, there's just no one who can actually spend the time working on it. Are you referring to the attribution, is it the attribution extension or something for DDEX? And there's three of them, there's three standards but I don't know which one particularly, I'd ask the guy to do a more detailed, it's been a while, I didn't know it up for this conversation. Sebastian, how does that touch upon your work? In many regards, so I think there are a few different aspects to the point of NFTs so first of all, what I learned over the last years is that people come from use cases and one of the questions that I would have regarding NFTs for media, for entertainment media would be the use cases for NFTs. I can see it in the visual art of course, through the hype and whether it might be something like a value in collecting rare digital assets. On the other hand, I've been listening to a couple of podcasts and having some conversations on Twitter where the question was actually, so if you would have MP3s or eBooks or these kind of assets, it would be the same experience that you would have with rare visual art. That's one question that I'm struggling with and in one podcast, I think it was a colleague from a company called Mintable, he said that, I'm not entirely sure, but he mentioned that it could be connected to other experiences that you would be acquiring when you purchase or license an NFT for a song that you could have like a phone call with the artist or like associated experiences around where that exclusivity could play a more dominant role or a more present role. So I'm interested in your opinion about NFTs for these entertainment media assets. There are some platforms that started to offer MP3s or songs and for me from the operational point of view, the second thing that would interest me is to, I couldn't read anything about the licensing terms. So when you talk about metadata, that's of course, one is the product metadata, the other would be the rights expression that needs to be codified in a way that suits this medium. So that in that way that it needs to be machine transactable. And if you have to browse the website for terms and to understand what you can do with the MP3 once you purchase it, then it doesn't help you and I couldn't find it. So would it be if I acquire an NFT for a song, would I get the distribution rights? Could I put it on YouTube on Spotify? Or would it just be that I would have the right to play it? Or what sense would that make if I would be able to play the song on my own and no one else could listen to it? So I couldn't find the terms and I think that needs to be solved among other things. The third point that I would like to mention is that the business model from the music industry where they could use NFTs or let's say content assets through blockchain. It's interesting because I think there are only a few of these use cases and one of them that would interest me in particular is the aspect of sync licensing that especially in the context of TikTok and social media, YouTube videos and platforms that Instagram videos that would I thought would have triggered the demand for sync licenses for these kind of assets and where you couldn't potentially negotiate licenses on a manual basis. So the automated transaction through blockchain would make sense in that in that use case. And I was wondering if you would see that use case because we had the discussion about it. And the other use case I think that are discussed in the metadata or DDEX context is the issue of connecting record codes, ISRC and ISWCs. So in order to have the composers remunerated for their work, I think that's something where blockchain in various projects has been investigated as well. So these are the three points that interest me in the space. I have one with credits. Especially if you one last remark, if you're dealing with with entertainment media, you would could also go with fungible tokens, because you don't necessarily need to limit the distribution. Any thoughts on that Kyle. Oh, yes, I'm sorry for that overlap. But yeah, I was just thinking the whole point with having credits and DDEX and all that is so that money can get funneled to people worked on projects. So I definitely know times 10 years or so ago where there was 2 million hung up because someone just wasn't there. There was metadata in one area that wasn't getting ported to metadata in another area and so the Japanese PRO wouldn't hand it to the Canadian PRO that kind of stuff, right. So DDEX hopefully is helping with that. But I hear in from the community, they still think blockchain can really help with it. The issue I'm thinking with the NFTs for possibly is would come in Pandora and all that, would they actually allow the NFTs to be on their wall garden, their closed space, right. So they right now they're, they want the metadata, but they want it's their closed space. So that's a question, but they accept NFTs or do they want to do this system that's already well established, or both would have you but that's I think another hurdle is that these, these market players have to buy in. If we're going to splive them with the NFTs, but if we use it at this other layer, including micro payments. So if it's fungible. Then that's not that's on the issue that has to be handled. So somebody, you know, as the voice of Pandora. How does that question strike you the possible inclusion or not of NFTs within canonical streaming services. Well, let me be clear and probably like the Deloitte situation I have no legal right to be the voice of Pandora here. So I'll just put that as a public company. I wouldn't say that. But I mean I think the interesting thing and what, which is what you're mentioning is that the wall gardens are not really helping a lot of people right so while people may have their own blockchain driven solutions for an internal situation, kind of like the thing that we were looking at. I think to harness the power of this we need his participants across the industry. And at least you know this was several years ago we didn't see that much excitement when we presented something. But, you know, maybe something just needs to get built and then people will buy in once it's there. And lastly we have our own IDs internally for for music but it's, we get the same catalog delivered that Spotify gets that Apple music gets that you know, the labels all deliver via DDEX to the same thing so this has been a problem in digital delivery for 15 years, even before DDEX, every read digital retailer had their own ID system and everything. And when you're representing the music catalog of the world, I see lots of applications with that. And there's always going to be a question I believe of if a particular organization, a private organization creates that either they open it up or donate it to the world so I do think that the world needs a publicly accessible set of tokens that represent all recorded music. It may sound like a lofty goal but you know why not shoot for the moon. And if, and if a company is going to have their own personal interest in whatever that is, then it may be up to an open source community to create something that could rival. There's, you know, several private organizations that have started that want to, you know, jacks and all these things that want to create the metadata database for everything and that's extremely useful. If someone pulls that off, I would certainly pay for API access so I get it's a business model. When we get into NFTs and tokens representing works. Unless it's a PRO, I always thought that maybe the PROs at, you know, ASCAP BMI that they would be interested in having this sort of index, and I hesitate to say that people aren't working on this stuff either privately. But ultimately, maybe it takes something out in the open to gather steam in which it becomes useful. I don't know that's my personal opinion on it. We have no plans that I know about at Pandora to do anything like that right now. If I may jump in, because that was actually the initial motivation for the ISCC. So, and I think that kind of is also described in the wiki of this particular project regarding the two million audio files that David donated to this museum. So, I think the starting point to have that registry would be the way to identify content essentially, which would support exactly that use case that you just described. Because the ISCC in a certain way can be generated by anyone. So I've had discussions with book publishers that were where they would say, oh, we don't know how to generate these ISCC for our works. And I said maybe you don't have to because other parties have generated the ISCCs. So the identifier is not depending on the party that is actually holding rights. That is the distinction that is very important. So it could be a distributor like an audio distributor. It could be you as Pandora. It could be Spotify. It could be anyone generating the ISCC and then registering them on a blockchain. That's why the governance of the chain is important or a question because that there are two aspects to that one is to publish and to register and to declare the ISCC. That would be done by an entity. So that's the one to include the ISCC on a chain and the other would be to be able to read it and maybe compare your library with the library of the blockchain. Whether you have complete catalog or whether you're missing some assets or these kind of things. So these are the two aspects. And basically if you have if you register ISCC on blockchains then you can associate metadata whatever you would like or whatever you have at hand. And I think that's at least the idea to get to that global repository of metadata and rights information because anyone can contribute to that. And you would be able to be identifiable through your key pair whether you would be entitled to provide valid and verifiable metadata or not. So basically the idea would be any track would have an ISCC or any media asset would have an ISCC. And then different parties could could use the the identifier as a reference point to associate there. It could be reviews or metadata rights and information published in the relation to their actor ID which would be could be a decentralized ID or it could be one of these identifiers that are coming up at this point. And what would interest me in that in this project is that you actually with the two million assets you would have a good test case that you could set up and experiment with it and actually provide. I mean the generation of the ISCC will probably be the very easy part. You can do it with a with a command line tool already now and generate the ISCC for the for the assets but actually to provide the metadata and the information and then start thinking about the way the transactions can happen. That I think is an interesting point to explore in this project at least that's my my interest in the project because to be honest, there have been a lot of blockchain related projects. But they are kind of isolated proof of concepts and not not something interoperable because you need the standardization for that. I think that's great I think that definitely the struggle that I've encountered while pitching these sort of ideas. And I think it's important for us to always ask ourselves is, what can we do uniquely on a blockchain that we can't do with a traditional database right so if we look at like these lofty goals. Wikipedia is a perfect example of a global, you know where it builds itself right you know you just let it sit back and after a few years wow there's a lot of content here right. So, you're always going to have to challenge yourself say well you know what can we do uniquely on a blockchain that you can't do on Wikipedia. Right or something like that and certain things that you can do uniquely on a blockchain, but I think that as a as a project. Any idea should pass through that filter and whatever we identify as something unique. I think that's where the opportunity is like it's worth it to do, you know, this on the blockchain because it adds this value to it right. Because, to be honest, there's a lot of trade off at least in the systems that I've worked with right where speed and throughput and all these things you know you're definitely giving up some of those things are used to in traditional technologies but if you've got a use case where you gain on that from the blockchain you and not all use cases need speed or throughput or these things right. A distinction between the you between the applications, I think it's important and if you think about that, like a decentralized registry. You don't need the throughput that you that you might be expected if you are dealing with consumer sales for, let's say, content licensing or asset licensing so if you would simply have like 8000 transaction per second or per minute or whatever you would do a benchmark there and instead of like 100,000 transactions per second, then this this would still be okay, because that would not be critical. So I think that's where the you where the blockchain comes into play and adds value. And the other thing is exactly what you described as the Wikipedia use case that you that you have contributions from from several parties that don't that might be competitors. So it could be that that there is a value that that I'm just making that up example but but that let's say Amazon and Apple or Spotify and Pandora or a diesel and and and Spotify could contribute to an ecosystem by providing let's say reviews or or links to metadata that are accurate or these kind of things to share that information might help to grow the ecosystem and so that that's where blockchain needs to come into play necessarily I would say because otherwise you would have some kind to have to establish some kind of organization that is like had organization for for competing companies with all the trust things involved there so I think blockchain opens up an opportunity in collaborating without colluding. I think, yeah, no I hear you I think that blockchain does give some very specific advantages over over a shared let's say a shared Wikipedia type system right so the audit trail right especially in hyper ledger right. The audit trail would be extremely important when it comes to this kind of thing, and not just the traditional audit trail you'd get on a, on a website where you can't really trust who coded it right. But a fully, you know shared ledger in which you can guarantee that you know exactly who changed what when and all those things right that that's critical. Yeah, and I think that it's also one of these things where a shared a shared ledger of let's say all of the musical works is one of those things that may not. It may not be obvious at this point like what you could do if you really had that right, but why not build it you know if you have that. It'd be amazing to amazing resource for the entire world. And if you if you had the ability to write API is against it or things like that. The use cases would emerge, you know along the way kind of thing. I tested it with with, I think about 12 million academic research content. So PDF 1212 and a half million PDFs, but also with with with other media types to to get familiar with the idea that that you would simply have this identifier on a on a blockchain. And then you could associate metadata to it or links to repositories where you would have these metadata available in York under your control of chain in order to have control about changes or these kind of things, but still have some kind of audit auditable trade because it depending also on the network if you you don't want to put content on the blockchain yourself or itself, but but only maybe links to IPFS or to to other repositories. So and I think that's for me that was a super amazing experience to have like different people contributing to that test case and validating these transactions. So I would think I would like to see that and I'm not that would be my question to David about or to the group how that project could could be a bit more prototypy. So to get actually what you what you say I think that's the right approach to to have a look at what works and what what experience would be contributed to that prototype and then decide on a on a certain track to actually do it and maybe get support from developers or companies that would fund like the needs for developing stuff. I can. No, please go ahead. I don't want to derail the conversation I just as we were talking about kind of you know what ideas could be there I mean I, I have maybe one or two very specific ideas that I've always wanted to build on a system like this. I could just, you know, if you don't mind to say them and we can just move on if there's really idiotic. No, no, please, it sparks. No, the, the, the city in case it sparks. So I really may not apply to everybody but me personally I'm a record collector clocks or records, and I've always been fascinated on the possibility of tokens for existing vinyl records. Meaning that, not necessarily things that are pressed today, which have UPCs and all those things, but I'm really interested in the pre 72 era, pre, you know, UPC era, and thinking about a way in which you could actually track the sale of used goods. So, and assign ownership to use this right. So, vinyl as an example but it could be any collectible. And maybe use that with smart contracts to actually attribute royalties to use goods right now there's nothing like that that happens right. An album that was created and sold in the 70s gets passed around and resold, you know, a bunch of times here, nowadays, and no one, no one but the person who's immediately selling it sees that but I've certainly dreamed of like a system like this that would actually credit and track and pay artists for the resale of their goods. But you know you take that that and apply it to any any collectible but that's certainly something I've looked into and tried to kind of prototypically you know, build something like that in in solidity a few years ago, but that that's, you know, kind of one idea I guess. In essence, we're talking about it. I was just curious how that is different than some of the NFTs that are being built today, where, yeah, the tracking of resale is, I think it is. I mean, that's kind of why I brought it up I think, you know, when I was doing it it was just the NFT idea was not kind of a shared idea, but it's basically the same thing. You know, it's a token, you know, you assign it to an item, and you can have a smart, smart contract around that item. And all you really need is the tools then and and the adoption is of course critical, and you need the actual data there. But I believe once you have the tools, this goes for any of these entity things once you have the tools. People contribute the data as they use it, and it just grows over time it's nothing that needs to be instantly, you know, populated in six months that can take 10 years. So basically is the NFT idea. Yeah I mean what's interesting there is you're talking about a collaborative work of art right if you're talking about some of the work that some of the big auction houses like Christie's guns once again. So when you're talking about two dimensional visual works of art right paintings prints and so on there are several galleries and big auction houses like Christie's that are doing the kind of things we're talking about that's a provenance right that's the work of art, but that's the work of art of one person. So, I know that Heidi's been interested in things like you know the baseball cards and the sports collectibles and so on which once again. That's not the best example because they are they're not they're not reused you don't you don't play a baseball card over and over again right. But what's interesting about your use case of the album is first of all it's collaborative so it belongs to many people or several people in fact a movie would be an even better idea right it's made by. 100 people all of whom need to be paid, and it is reused you play an album many times it's streamed many times you watch an album more than once, don't use a painting more than once. So yeah exactly I think there are some challenges there that are similar to what has been done but are not yet sold in a, in a, on a substantial scale. I would just join in that that the collaborative discussion is something that's very relevant. So, a lot of music musicians when they're creating a lot there aren't that many but of those that are creating NFTs today. One way in creating an NFTs is not just the musical portion but they're looking for a visual artist to put together perhaps like a small digital video to accompany the art the music, and then other artists are embedding with in their NFTs qr codes to access other artists so there's just a lot of collaboration and we're at the very very beginning of this. And I think you bring up a good point both David and john is how in the future are we tracking this information, perhaps user data would be something that's important. So all of these collaborative initiatives, and then another person brought up in one of the groups that I was belonging to is the, the legal kind of what's trendy with with with younger musicians is this mashables bringing musicians in together and mashing them up to create a new type of song. And so what are the legal ramifications around that. I think you just bring up a very good use case that we're going to be seeing more and more of in the future. I definitely think that the, you know that the of all the things that we're bringing up right now. Again, going back to what makes blockchain unique ownership, right, especially when like you mentioned Heidi legal, whether it's ownership or just contributions or splits or any of that, and payments. These are all things that you cannot do on Wikipedia, right, you can't, you can't have escrow's you can't automatically pay people you can't. You can't guarantee the audit trail all these things right so out of all these ideas that we're talking about. These specific things that blockchain can do uniquely, you know, that you can't replicate in other environments so my personal opinion is that that's where the opportunity is for this technology, otherwise just do this this idea somewhere else, but where this can really step in is is all those things. I mean this kind of loop back. Oh sorry yeah go on please. There is a distinction between the fixation as well or the IP right so something I find really interesting about what john said with these old works is, yeah it's tracking the fixation which is inventory management. In general right it's a physical object, but then I thought I heard you mentioned that the artist would get some royalties from a resale so that's what's really interesting to me then is that this fixed object that now which is like any other fixed object has now come out of the world of IP with that particular application there where it's a collectible good like a baseball card, but also it has an ability to give someone royalties every time there's a there's a sale. Yeah, and you know if spent a lot of time thinking about that particular idea so you can definitely go down the rabbit hole and there's some brick walls that come up along that thought experiment. But in general, it's one of those were like, even if it worked where, you know, you, you know, you, you give Steven Tyler a check for $1,000. You know that's $1,000 that he isn't making today. Right. And to me personally, I think that's an improvement and if that were a system that grew over time, it would only become more and more valuable. But you know also, you're talking about collectibles, especially physical goods. They, unlike a digital good they will degrade right and so passing, passing ownership of physical collectibles also has this idea of representing the, the, the condition and all these things right and so there's an probability trail to in terms of as things as condition changes over time, right, whether it's a record whether it's a teapot or whatever right. And if you tie that to identity. It's like a flea market right if you can imagine everything in a flea market had a history, and it's like a car facts, right. Like, not sure if that's a thing but you know a car facts you know you go to a used car dealership on in America, and every, every car actually has this company that has like a detailed list of anytime it's been an accident or anytime it's, you know by this car, and it looks great but when you look at the car facts it shows you that the doors were completely ripped off in an accident and they've been replaced or patched up and all this stuff right but if you if you use the blockchain as like a car facts for collectible goods. Right, there's this audit trail that I think would add a lot of value to any type of collectible you know industry right and and of course if you can track payments and things like that or generate payments for people that have never participated in I think it's interesting concept. I've seen a little bit of work done there with. I mean, which is no no go on with records of course you have the first sale. So, it would be the question whether you would in what way artists would would gain from the resell of the physical object if they are like, let's say, if the digital twin would have been or the token would be transferred. Or the physical item would be transferred so that would make a difference probably for remuneration but what I think is, I mean the music is out there. It's on the streaming platforms. I can generate an ICC or like I could go to the blockchain and say, well, I actually want to have that record someone in the world must have must have this record and I want to make an offer. And that would be something that you could do. I mean, you can see that on Super Rare or OpenSea or what these guys that you that you can can offer make an offer for an NFT. And that would be a super interesting thing if you have, let's say, either digitized and generate the ID for your collection. Or let's say, only take the ID over and say, well, I own this record and simply add this to the blockchain and someone on the other part of the world could simply make you an offer for your collection. I think that would be a totally interesting and totally doable use case to pursue definitely. And it's also it relates to the museum case that David mentioned in the Wikipedia, because I like it's a totally different industry. But if you're dealing with archives or libraries, what they do is like they might have assets that are also in the collection of a different library, like with books or with prints or with images or paintings or these kind of things, you would have like the catalog and they could match the catalog. It's basically the same idea that you could say, well, for my collection, there's a missing piece. And suddenly I know that there is an archive that has this piece and that could borrow it to me for this exhibition or something. So the basic principle is the same in that it can be applied to either like a used record marketplace that could pull the data and provide a user interface for this kind of thing or like a library that could be supported, library work could be supported by the same principle. That's a very interesting the library concept Sebastian, I'm wondering, is anybody on this call aware of any entity doing that because I would have thought that the NBA top shots. Since they're pushing these visual moments as collectibles that they would also be generating some type of ledger, a library ledger of these NFTs. But if not, then that's a very relevant use case. They could certainly do it. They could certainly do it. And that would be interesting to discuss with them if they would be interested. I don't know their business model if they would have like a proprietary kind of approach or whether they would like to open up whatever they offer that would be interesting to discuss. And also with companies like Panini who are working with blockchain and hyper ledger in regards to their digital collecting cards. So there are like a few companies that are in the space and dealing with NFTs. Kyle, are you aware of dapper labs? I'm so sorry, David. I was gonna say unfortunately I don't want to keep people learning a lot right now so. What's that? What'd you say, Kyle? Oh, I didn't hear you. I thought I was just asking do you know if dapper labs, because they came up with crypto kiddies and then obviously with flow and top shots. Are they creating any kind of library of the collectibles so that as Sebastian was saying you know I've collected all of my Kobe Bryant video clips except for one I need to go find this missing one and who has it. Yeah, I still hang out with some people in the UBC blockchain community and that's how I know them. The gallery runs it was dating the guy who ran whatever so I'll ask her. But yeah, I can't, I don't know I'll talk my head, but it'd be cool to investigate that because that is an interesting question. Unfortunately, I would wrap things up because we're running a little after eight o'clock. I'm sure Sebastian is completely hammered. So the couple of takeaways and one Sebastian had the idea of maybe making the project slightly more prototypical in the sense of actually building a prototype that could be clearly presented to external organizations. So I'll do that. But one thing that didn't come up that I'd really like to hear from people about is hosting. Purely because there's some attractive and useful tools that are made have made available to us I suggested that we use the stuff that IBM produces but then that ties you to their blockchain platform which to my mind is very expensive. So I've asked them whether or not they would be willing to host or this for free but if anybody has any good ideas about alternative hosting options that would be something that I think several of us could could benefit from. And I know it may sound sound obvious but are we assuming that anything we build would be on hyper ledger. Well, we were suggested by one of our French members last time we met that portability is something that we should certainly consider so two questions. Maybe the precede everything we're talking about is exactly what you've touched upon which is one should is this best built on hyper ledger. And according to a similar logic. If it is, is it sufficiently portable that you could move it away from hyper ledger. So I'd love to hear that I'd love to hear the pros and the cons of what what I've done is I've sketched a possibility. It might not be the best one. So please, you know the only way to test the validity of what we're doing is to hear the best possible arguments and one of the counter arguments might be better. Sure. Okay. So thank you all for coming. Your time is very much appreciated. As I've said all of these conversations get recorded. So I'm going to put this back up online so if you joined us late there's certainly no need to think that you missed all of the news. But in the meantime, thanks very much. Please keep the ideas coming and we'll speak face to face in a couple of weeks. Thank you everybody. Thank you, David. Thanks a lot. Bye. Have a good night.