 Hello, once again. Let's talk about media and communication. In this episode, we discuss the anti-vaccination movements in Germany and in Brazil. Together with our guest, Adriana Maral, she's from the Unesinos University in Brazil. We're going to look at how these movements use social media to spread misinformation and also to defy challenge social cohesion. We're also going to address with Adriana the differences between the two movements and how in Brazil this stronger politicization of vaccines has led to a more polarized debate in Germany. Adriana, welcome to our episode. Hi, thank you for inviting me. Adriana, let's jump into why you and your colleagues found this topic worthy of researching about. Well, we had this research project between Germany and Brazil and we were looking for this information in digital platforms. But we had another grant specific from the DFG from Germany that was specific to discuss how social media were being spread, the vaccination campaigns were being spread in Brazil. And then we start to look at it. And in our first findings, we thought, oh my God, that's been this big anti-vaccination movement. And then we decided to contextualize it with the German situation also because it was different, but in a way that has some kind of similarities. And so we start to look at it. But you told me, so there was some research before about this topic. There was some surprising elements that you just found. But considering previous research, let me know what were your expectations. So before we jump into the findings, what were you and your colleagues hoping to find? First, because we saw that Brazil was very known because of the high levels of vaccination before. And during the pandemic, we saw that this anti-vax discourses and narratives were growing and faster, and especially on Twitter, Instagram, and in Germany, we saw that this information were less polarized because they have some specific groups that are more connected with anthroposophical movements. And with some movements that there were no, in a way, they were not so political. They are more like people thinking about, how can I say that? People that are like, oh, natural style of life or veganism. So it was very different from the situation we had in Brazil. And so this information was spread in the same platforms, but in different ways. So different, same platforms, more polarized in Brazil than in Germany. So let's explore the findings now. So then we started to, we had this long work of gathering and collect all the data during two or four months. And we started just right when the vaccination started in Germany. That was a bit before and in Brazil a little bit later. And then we discovered that in Brazil, almost all the spread of this information have been organized by Bolsonaro supporters or people who were in contact with the government. And there were politicians and deputies and senators and also people from, that was most unexpected, people were from the health field. Especially some doctors, some medicals that were spreading this anti-vaxx discourses. And they were discussing about chloroquine, that is, that is this pill. So it was very weird. And in Germany, it was not, it was a movement very connected to some things about, oh, we have the right to not get vaccinated. In Brazil, it was more this, oh, if you vaccinated, you become a crocodile, Bolsonaro said that. So there are lots of fake inventions about vaccines. And in Germany, it was more something connected to, oh, we were worried this vaccination, this vaccine was made very fast. We don't know what is made of, but some things were quite the same, like the discussion that the vaccines would transform your DNA and this kind of stuff. Yes. And I, as I was reading an article and you just told me, so these anti-vaccination movements, they vary in the context. Some in Germany argue for more like the personal rights and in Brazil, even some health professionals and Bolsonaro groups that promote them. My question for you is because it got me curious to, how can we explore potential policy impacts of this? Have you considered this in your study? Well, so in another paper that is about to be published soon, we discussed about how the health organizations were using these digital platforms for information on campaigns, but on vaccination campaigns. But we didn't see, how can I say, especially in Brazil, this worried at least on the other government, of course, because when we gathered the data, it was still 2002 and 2022. And so we didn't see this worry about policies, because Brazil was known for its strength of vaccination campaigns and dissemination of vaccination in all around the country. And we have high rates. We never had this anti-vax movements. It was quite new. So in this sense, I think something we should address is more policies on combating misinformation. And also there is the part from the digital platforms, what we're going to do with this, with governance of digital platforms with, in some cases, the platformization. So I think it's a mixture that we have to do with this kind of policies. The responsibility that should be shared between politicians and the platforms, controlling the misinformation. What do you think, Adriana? After what you told us, what do you think researchers should look at now? So what's the future research, comparing new geographies or new groups, other platforms? So what should we look at now? I think all of these things, because when we started this research, we didn't see any comparative. We found some lots of things on anti-vax movements, more in the US, more in the global north. And so we saw that there was this lack in the field. And also I have been thinking about video and TikTok, because there's been lots of conspiracy theories that have been around on TikTok and Instagram. And all the digital platforms, they are kind of, with video, they are more difficult to research because the API is closed. And there is also this problem with the digital platforms for researchers that allow Twitter is closing. We don't know what it's going to do with Elon Musk. And all these things impact, so things that are from a political side and from a marketing side and from how these platforms are ruling. I think it's a challenge. It's challenging to be researching this kind of things now. And maybe other movements, because some people have been researching before, like people who believes in the flat earth and these kind of things. But we were thinking more on the conspiracy theories or they were more like an antidote. So now we saw the impacts that were very, very worried about this impact. And I've been to Fiocruz last year, that is one of the places in Brazil where they research and they did the vaccine here. And they were saying to me, the people from there, that it has impact in other vaccines, not only in COVID, but for children. And this, oh, one last thing that I forgot. The last thing is that they are using the people from the extreme right, they are far right, they are using it, oh, you're using vaccines for the children and it's not safe, let's protect children, creating a moral panic for this. This impact is awful and it's getting in all social classes. It doesn't have to be a person who has not studied. So people from university everywhere. So it's kind of crazy. Of course, spillover effect to other fields and other vaccines and other groups, of course, other than adults. Do you have any materials that you'd like to share with who listening to us some additional materials for people to further explore the topic. Yeah, I think that there's a material that we have produced that is more visual and I can leave it to you to distribute because it's on a PDF that we shared with the journalists. We also are thinking about the way people who communicate science has to treat this because it's another thing that we have to consider. Of course. And for our listeners, this material that Adriana recommended will be available if you are watching us on the let's talk about media and communication websites below the video, there will be this recommended material that Adriana just mentioned. Adriana, let's close this episode with a punchline. So if you could wrap this conversation in one or two sentences, what would it be? Although hard, what would it be hard? I think that we have to be very careful with the information, especially information on health and vaccination. That we should consider it to take into our lives and to do this the decisions of our, our health, our community because it's a collective sense that we are missing that that's the importance of the social cohesion. So, and this digital platforms, they are not caring about that. I think that is the punchline. Perfect. Adriana, it was a pleasure. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you. Again, for our listeners, if you are watching us on YouTube, you can visit our website. Let's talk about media and communication where you can see also this conversation, the recommended materials and the article that served as a base for this conversation. You can also listen to this episode wherever you get your podcast on your website. You can subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on Twitter at Kojitatiu LTA.