 Okay. The appointed hour of 6.30 having been reached, I welcome everyone to this meeting of the Amherst Zoning Board of Appeals. My name is Steve Judge. As chair of the Amherst Zoning Board of Appeals, I call this meeting to order. Pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12, 2020 order, suspending certain provisions of the Open Meeting Law, General Laws Chapter 30A, Section 18, and the Governor's March 15, 2020 order, imposing strict limitations on the number of people that may gather in one place. This public hearing of the town of Amherst Zoning Board of Appeals is being conducted via remote participation. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but the public can listen to the proceedings by clicking the link on the town's webpage. In accordance with the provisions of Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 40A and Article 10, special permit granting authority of the Amherst Zoning By-law. This public meeting has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and mailed to parties at interest. We will begin with a roll call vote of the regular members of the ZDA who have been in panel for considerations of the items on tonight's agenda. I'm Steve Judge. I'm here. Mr. Langsdale. Here. Ms. O'Meara. Ms. Parks. Here. Mr. Maxfield. Here. Ms. Waldman. Here. Mr. Barrack. Mr. Greeny. And Mr. Meadows. Here. Also in attendance tonight, Marine Pollock Planning, Dave Waskevitz with the Building Inspections Department, and Chris Bresta, Planning Director for the town of Amherst. The Zoning Board of is a quasi-judicial body that operates under the authority of Chapter 40A of the General Laws of Massachusetts for the purpose of promoting health, safety, convenience, and the general welfare of the inhabitants of the town of Amherst. One of the most important elements of the Amherst Zoning By-law is section 10.38. Specific findings from this section must be made for all of our decisions. All hearings and meetings are open to the public and are recorded by town staff. Each petition heard by the board is distinct and evaluated on its own merits, and the board is not ruled by precedent. The procedure is as follows. The petitioner presents the application to the board during the hearing. After which the board will ask questions for clarification or for additional information. After the board has completed its questions, the board will seek public input. The public speaks with the permission of the chair. If a member of the public wishes to raise to speak, they should so indicate by using the raised hand function in the Zoom app. The chair will, with the assistance of the staff, will call upon people wishing to speak. When you are recognized, present your name and address to the board for the record. All questions and comments must be addressed to the board. The board will then hear responses from the applicant to the public comments. At this point, the board will either close or continue the public hearing to a later date. The board will conduct a public meeting on the application. The public meeting portion is when the board deliberates and is generally not an opportunity for public comment. If the board feels it has enough information and time, it will decide upon the applications tonight. Statutorily, for a special permit, the board has 90 days from the close of the hearing to file a decision. For a variance, the board has 100 days from the date of filing to file its decision. No decision is final until the written decision is signed by the sitting board members and is filed in the town clerk's office. Once the decision is filed with a town clerk, there is a 20-day appeal period for an agreed party to contest the decision with a relevant judicial body in Superior Court. After the appeal period, the permit must be recorded at the Registry of Deeds to take effect. Tonight's agenda is as follows. ZBA FY 2021-02. Bill and Karen Tennell. To review the updated site plan, building elevation and floor plan pursuant to conditions 1, 2, and 7 of the approved ZBA FY 2020-10 special permit located at 1530 Southeast Street, Map 26B, Parcel 3, Outlying Residence RO District, Low Density Residential RLD, and Aquifer Recharge Protection, ARP Zoning Districts. FY 2021-05. Rise Holdings, Inc. Review the proposed mural on the exterior building wall pursuant to conditions 6 of the special permit ZBA FY 2019-10, located at 169 Meadow Street, Map 4B, Parcel 6, Light Industrial LI Zoning District. That's our public agenda for the public meeting. For the public hearing, ZBA 2020-42. Faye Crosby requests a special permit to allow a non-owner occupied duplex under sections 3.3211 and 10.38 of the zoning bylaw, located at 65 High Street, Map 14B, Parcel 90, General Residence RO District, and ZBA FY 2021-01, Harmsway LLC pursuant to Massachusetts General Law Chapter 40A, sections 8 and 15, as well as section 10.1 of the Amherst Zoning Bylaw. The petitioner is requesting an appeal of the building commissioner's advisory opinion regarding section 6.6 and 3.30 of the Amherst Zoning Bylaw. In an email correspondence dated July 1, 2020, submitted to the Amherst Planning Director in relation to properties identified as Map, Parcel, 14B, 250, and 14B, 251. We will then have the general comment period for public comment on matters not before the board tonight and any other business not anticipated by the chair within the last 48 hours. Is my understanding that there is an agreement to continue ZBA 2021 until October 1, so I'd like to dispose of that item at first in the agenda. I'm going to recuse myself from the consideration of this matter. I have made public statements about my position regarding the underlying project and I feel I have not, and while I have not opined on the appeal before the board tonight, I believe and believe I could evaluate the appeal without prejudice. I want to avoid even the appearance of bias in my deliberation on this matter. Mr. Langsdale will be the acting chair for consideration of ZBA 2021. So Mr. Langsdale, you can take the chair for that matter. Thank you. I'd like to start just because Mr. Judge has recused himself. I'd just like to go through the sitting members again and just do, you know, that we're here. Okay, because it's changed. So I'm the acting chair, Keith Langsdale, here. Tammy Parks. Here. Jonah Mira. Dylan Maxfield. Here. And Craig Meadows. Here. Oh, thank you. So because the... Excuse me, Mr. Acting Chair, there's one more sitting member. Oh, there is. Sharon. Oh, I didn't, I wasn't told that. There we go. I'm here. So Sharon Waldman, she's here. Good. Thank you. So because the building commissioner of the town of Amherst, Rob Mora, couldn't be here tonight, he's asked that we continue this and this application and we can continue it to October 1st. So I make a motion that this application be continued to October 1st, 2020. Is there a second? Second. At 6.30. At 6.30. Sorry. Okay. Thank you. So any discussion? All right. Then we'll take a vote. Keith Langsdale, I can share. I. Tammy Parks. I. Dylan Maxfield. I. Craig Meadows. I. Sharon Waldman. I. Thank you. Then this application will be continued to October 1st, 2020. Thank you, Mr. Langsdale. The next order of business is ZBA FY 2021-02. Bill and Carol Tonnell to review the updated site plan, building elevations and floor plan pursuant to conditions 1, 2, and 7 of the approved ZBA FY 2020-10 special permit located at 1530 Southeast Street, map 26B, parcel 3, outlying residential RO, low density residential RLD, and aquifer recharge protection ARP zoning districts. Are there any disclosures for this matter? We have received from the applicant site plans, floor plans, landscape plans, lighting plans, and elevations for the special permit previously approved in 2019, and for what is being currently proposed. We have also received a management plan, a complaint response plan, and a sample lease. I think that's all we I think that sums up all the material submitted on this application. Is that right Maureen? That is correct. At this point, the applicant could present the application and the petition to the board. Does the applicant wish to speak regarding this application? Is there anybody here? To be honest, I don't see Bill Tonnell in attendance. Do I? Perhaps. Maybe we can move on to the next item and I will send him a quick email to see if he's going to join us, if you're agreeable to... I'm agreeable to that. We can get him to do that. All right, so I'm move we suspend the public meeting on this matter until later in this meeting. Do I have a second? Second. Any discussion? The motion, the vote occurs on the motion to suspend this till later in this meeting tonight. The roll call vote required. The chair votes aye. Mr. Langsdale? Aye. Ms. Parks? Aye. Mr. Maxfield? Aye. Mr. Meadows? Aye. That's it. Motion carries. So we'll move on to the next item in the agenda. ZBA, FY, now this is a this would be the public hearing, I think. Yep. No, this is still the public meeting. Public meeting on Rise Holdings, Inc. to review the proposed mural on the exterior building walls pursuant to condition six of the special permit ZBA, FY, 2019-10, located at 169 Meadow Street, map 4B, parcel 6, Light Industrial LI Zoning District. Are there any disclosures? If not, is the applicant there to... We've received submissions from the presented to the board. The board received a PowerPoint presentation describing the mural, subjects, the artist selection process, and a timeline. Does the applicant wish to speak and present his proposal to the board? We do, Mr. Chair. And who's representing the applicant? Tom Reedy. And your address, Mr. Reedy? Oh, sure. Yeah. So if I can get right into it then. Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. I'm Tom Reedy, an attorney with Bacon Wilson in Amherst here on behalf of Rise, and its request to put murals up on its recreational marijuana dispensary and co-located with their off-site medical marijuana dispensary at 169 Meadow Street in Amherst. I've got with me, and Maureen, I don't know if you've given them panelist ability as well, but Ben Sussman, who is the outreach specialist, and then Jake Burgess, who is their general manager. I'll make it for Jake. Jacob. Jacob, yeah, and Ben as well. Perfect. Okay. So maybe Mr. Chair, we'll just get right into it, if that's okay? Just describe what the applicant is seeking. Sure. So we can give you the reader's digest version, or we can get into a little bit more nuts and bolts. Ultimately, I'll turn it over to Ben to talk through the specific proposal. But high-level what Rise is requesting is there's a condition six of the special permit for the use, which requires that any significant alterations to the building to come back before the ZBA at a public meeting. And so while we don't have a design yet, as if you've looked through the packet, you'll see that we have not selected an artist, we have not selected a design. These are not signs. They're going to be murals, and so we'd obviously accept a condition that says they're not going to be signs. And we'd also accept a condition that we have to, assuming you approve it, we have to submit the final design to the inspection services department with a copy to the planning department. But really the request is a simple one to put up murals on, to have the ability to put up murals on all four of the walls at the dispensary. And maybe I'll turn it over to Ben to talk about it a little bit more in Maureen if you want to, if you have that PowerPoint. I don't think we're going to go through the whole thing, but maybe just to identify what we're looking at. Oh, sure. Ben, I'll let you, if you have the PowerPoint to be in charge of that. Okay, cool. Let me see, share my screen here. All right, can everybody see that? Yes. All right. Let me get that up there. Okay, yeah, so first of all, you know, obviously thank you everyone for hearing us out. Definitely thanks to Maureen who's been extremely helpful to me, from weeks ago when I first started asking questions about how to possibly get this done. So yeah, this is definitely a project that we're passionate about at Rise and something we really feel would be a great thing for the community. So let's get into it here. So yeah, so why are we here today? So Amherst has a long tradition of public art, celebrating rich, natural, historic and intellectual traditions that make it one of America's greatest small towns. As proud members of the local business community, we're excited to share our proposal for public art at our location at 169 Meadow Street, Amherst. In the following pages, we outlined the theme and the inspiration we hope to capture with a beautiful mural for all of our fellow residents to enjoy. So, you know, as Tom mentioned, you know, we don't have, you know, a mural proposal to a specific piece of art to show you today, but you know, a big part of this is going to be the theme and what we're presenting to this list of, you know, really fantastic artists that they're going to be able to really be restrained and draw inspiration from. So the theme, artists will be asked to take inspiration from the lush nature, rich history, regional art, intellectual contribution and the cultural influences of the area, the northeast, the land and topography, the foliage, the seasons changing, the native animals, rivers, ponds, the acreage and the land orientation, farming and rural settings, the rural perspective with city lights in the background. The illuminated intellectual Americana of this area has been fostered through artists, authors, professors, poets and craftspeople. This area was first developed during Colonial America, which can be a source to inform, but should only be minimally drawn from for this installation. So what follows, this is the actual creative brief that we're going to be providing to the list of 10 artists that we currently have for them to provide us with a sketch of what their proposed mural would look like and then from that those sketches will be where we make our final selection. So who is rise? You know, we believe that cannabis is for everyone and no matter your lifestyle or level of wellness, there's a way for this humble plant to improve your well-being. That is why making you comfortable and helping you feel informed is the foundation of every rise store experience. So there's a link to our company profile, some information on the location, which you know, I'm sure you're all familiar with. So artist and mural inspiration, we already kind of went over that part. These are going to be some notable figures that we're going to highlight for the artists, just to give them, you know, idea of some of the rich history of the area. You know, the art history here is amazing. So definitely a lot to choose from and a lot to draw inspiration from. Do you want to show them the building and just what sides of the building? Yeah, definitely. I can skip through some of this stuff. So that's like, you know, this is the actual creative brief for what's going to be provided to the artists. So timeline, this just gives you an idea of, you know, what we're looking at in terms of getting the installation done. So here we go. Here's Rhys Amherst 169 Meadow Street. So here is the north wall and the entrance of the building. South wall, east wall. So this is another photo of the south wall. This would be facing Meadow Street. So this is one of the areas supposed to be used for the mural. So this is the entrance and the north wall. We're not going to be touching the actual entrance to the dispensary or the exit, I believe. East wall. So this measurement doesn't include the gable. We're going to verify that prior to the installation. We actually didn't have that and I attempted to get up there with a tape measure, but failed. So let me see. And then, you know, after this is a list of the artists for you all to look at, a really fantastic list of just world-class artists, you know, people that have international profiles. So it would really be something that would really make the location iconic and just, you know, bring a piece of art to Amherst that I think we're calling. So Ricky Watts, Gus Cuddy, you guys can all kind of check these out and hit some of these links if you're interested. So the selection jury, you know, this is an important piece. I just wanted to highlight, you know, one thing we wanted to do is really bring in voices from the community to participate in this. So there wasn't just, you know, rise in GTI that we're ultimately selecting this artist. So from the town of Amherst on the jury, we're going to have Cinda Jones, the president of Kohl's, Hannah Rex-Stoffin from the Mill District, Bill Keisen, the chair of the Public Arts Commission. And then I actually just spoke to Gabrielle Gould today from the Amherst bid, who will also be our juror from Amherst. And then here's a list of the jurors from GTI and Rise, Ben Kovler, our CEO, Michael Fields, our director of corporate social responsibility, myself, Brendan Bloom, the vice president of retail development, Meg Kinney, our vice president of retail marketing and Jennifer Dooley, chief strategy officer. So yeah, thank you very much for your consideration and we're excited about the potential of this. Great. Happy to answer any questions that you guys have. So it seems to me that you have three sides of the building that you're going to, you're proposing to have the mural on, is that correct? That's correct. Three sides of the building. The one thing that I would ask is, is there any limitations in the state cannabis laws regarding the images? I know there's restrictions on signs, but is there anything that regards regarding the images that may be attractive to young adults? I'm thinking of like Joe Camel was a controversial figure a few years ago because it was a friendly cigarette vendor for lack of a better term. And I'm unfamiliar if the Cannabis Commission has any rules, regulations, or laws that restrict the kind of images that you can present to the public so it doesn't entice young people. Does anybody know the answer to that? Yeah, I do know the answer to that. So yes, there is regulations from the CCC and we've actually included that in the brief. So I can actually just read that. So one thing that is mentioned here to the artists in the presentation that you guys have is, I'll just skip to that part. Let's see. So it says, works referencing these themes will be rejected. Any references to children or childlike depictions, toys, candy, cartoons, puppies, pastels. So yeah, that's the part. There's more to that that references reasons that the art would be rejected, but on that particular part speaks to what you were asking. I guess I didn't see that in the presentation that you made. I hustled him along, Mr. Chair. That was good. I'm glad you did, but I mean, I'm looking for the place where that is in the presentation. Yeah, so I got it. Cool. So sign like expressions. All right. The only thing, any reference would be good if you would, I would like you to think about projecting any kind of image that is particularly attractive to young people, to youngsters. So I know you're getting at that here without explicitly stating it. But as you would go forward with this, I think that would be helpful to reject any state, even reject any images that are particularly attractive to or designed to attract young, very young people are less than 21 years of age, whatever. Okay. I think we could probably, you know, something designed to attract something like that, because obviously, you know, art's subjective. So I think it has the intent of doing it. I think that's probably a step in the wrong direction. So designed to attract. Yeah. I think that kind of language in reframing would be something I would like to see. Are there other comments from questions or comments from board members? Can I just clarify one thing? So when you were showing the picture with the gable, you said that the art would go to the top of the gable or would not? It would just be on the concrete surface of the building or would it also be, I mean, it looked like sighting to me. So I'm wondering if you're and is the intention to paint the sighting? That's a great question. I actually had the exact same question myself. What I was saying during that particular slide is that we, when we got the measurements, we didn't have the measurements for the gable included. But I think the challenge of painting the sighting is something that I'll get an answer on. But we're certainly going to get the dimensions. And then after speaking to some of the artists, I'm not exactly sure what the feasibility of painting that sighting is either. So I mean, I think we'd like to have the opportunity to paint it because I mean, artists are creative and may come up with a creative way to utilize the, you know, the clavards in a different way. So I think we'd ask for the opportunity to do it. So either way. Yes, I think that's what I'm saying. Mr. Maxwell. You said just the entrance wouldn't be painted. The front's still going to be painted there and all that blue section, correct? Correct. Thank you. Are you intending to award to more than one artist? It'll be one artist. And Ms. Pollock, did you raise your hand? Yes. So can you clarify you said you're intending to paint three sides of the building? So which side would not be painted? Where the delivery port is, that area. Is that the exit that you were talking about? I think what Ben was talking about was the, so if you, I don't know, well, we can do it. So on the east side is the exit. I don't know if you've been into the dispensary, but they route you around and you come out of that east side. I think Ben was clear that the entrance wasn't going to be painted. It looks maybe from where the blue was that the exit may be painted from what it looked like in the presentation. Ben, I don't know if, I mean, again, I think we'd like to have the opportunity to. I think we will say the entrance won't be, but the balance of those three sides, we'd like the opportunity to have those painted again to give a larger canvas, I suppose. Okay. Okay. Any other questions? Mr. Maxfield. So, I mean, as is required, I guess this has been posted to all the butters and no butters are here. I'm correct about that. No one, no public comment from anyone who lives in that area. No, I don't think we needed to notify the butters because this is a public meeting. So there's not a butter notification. I think there's like eight butters total here. One of them's, I think the town of Amherst, one of them is Joe Saikowski, who is, I think, who sold the land to rise. So, I mean, these, these folks are pretty responsive if anybody were to say anything. And if you're familiar with the site and where these walls are facing, I mean, you're, you have to be like right in front or on the property to actually see them. And generally, public meetings don't have public comment. We do at times we can, but we generally don't hold open for public comment at public meetings. Mr. Maxfield. I guess my only concern about that, why I asked is, you know, me personally, I've never been a big fan of murals and stuff like that on public buildings and I don't live over there. So really, it's no concern to me. I just asked to want to see if any of the immediate butters who see that every day outside their window, if there even is anybody like that who can see that, it's, you know, have they been informed, do they know this is going on? It was really kind of my only concern to make sure that anybody who's in that immediate vicinity is kind of aware of this proposal. All right. Other questions? Well, it seems to me we really have the real question that's before us is whether this is a, deemed to be a significant or not significant change. If we look at condition six, it says any significant alterations to building or landscapes or changes in the management plan made necessary to result of changes in Massachusetts law shall be reviewed by the zoning board of appeals at a public meeting. So question is, I guess, if we do this as insignificant, we can approve the change and allow the building department, allow the plans to go before the building department for final approval and that does not have to come back to us. If we feel it's significant, we need to hold a public hearing on the matter and have public hearing and public meeting and make an amendment to the special permit. My inclination is that this is not a significant change to the public, to the building and why would I would be comfortable with allowing them to go forward to present the final plan to the building department for their approval. And if they find that they think it's, it is significant in their judgment, they would bring it to our attention. So that was my inclination in this. I'd certainly open that up to anybody else and what I'd like to do then is to move that we do that and then open it up to that motion up to amendment for anybody else if they want to change that or if they want to discuss it. So unless there's any further questions and they're none, I will move that we approve the request and seek a discussion or maybe seek discussions on the motion that we find this is not a significant change. Approve the request from RISE for a mural and that RISE submit the final design to the building department prior to installation. Is there a second? Second. Any discussion on that motion? So if you wish to amend the motion or if you wish to argue against it, this is the time to do that. Hearing no discussion, the vote occurs on the motion to find that the mural is not a significant change and we approve the request from RISE for a mural and that RISE submit the final design to the building department prior to installation of the of the mural. This is a roll call and this would be a roll call vote. The chair votes aye. Mr. Langsdale. Aye. Ms. Parks. Aye. Ms. Mr. Maxfield. Aye. Mr. Meadows. Aye. That's five ayes. A unanimous decision. Congratulations. Good luck. Thanks a lot. Good seeing everybody. Stay healthy. Thanks everybody. Appreciate it. The next order of business is to conduct the public hearing on ZBA FY 2020-42. Chair, I'm sorry to bother you. I believe Mr. Tennell has now joined us if you want to jump back. And we'd stay in the public meeting as opposed to opening the public hearing. Yeah, I think this might be a quicker. Yep. All right. We're going to return to the first order of business. Mr. Tennell there. He was here. Hold on a second. Wait, there was his... Hold on. He's calling me. I'm sorry. All right. Hello. So if he's ready, we'll go with it. If not, if this takes any period of time, we'll move on to the last agenda item. What's the... What'd we hear from him? He's joining us now. He was a little confused. All right. So I'll restate what the application is. It's ZBA FY 2021-02 Bill and Carol Tennell. Bill and Karen Tennell to review the updated site plan, building elevations and floor plan pursuant to conditions one, two, and seven of the approved ZBA FY 2020-10 special permit located at 1530 South East Street, map 26-3, 26B parcel three, outlying residential RO, low density residential RLV, and aquifer recharge protection ARP zoning districts. Are there any disclosures for this matter? For this application, we've received site plans, floor plans, landscape plans, lighting plans, and elevations for the special permit previously approved in 2019 and for what is being currently proposed. We have also received a management plan, a complaint response plan, and a lease. There was no site visit in this regard, so does the applicant wish to speak regarding the application? I do. Yes. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. All right. First, let me apologize for not attending earlier. I can only plead that I've been visiting Amherst for 30 days now and my brain is somewhere else from where it should be. I'm on my phone because I don't have a computer, but I am looking at the package that I submitted and Maureen has graciously told me that she can share those exhibits as need be. I can only start by giving you a brief outline of the changes that have occurred to our plans since we came before your board last time and they're actually quite minor. The layout of the intended development is essentially unchanged except for one key aspect and that is that in the previous plan we had intended to build a new house that was going to be connected to the portion of the existing barn structure on the property with what we referred to as a connector which would have been a heated and cooled structure. For economic reasons, among others, we've chosen to eliminate that connector and replace it effectively with a simple covered outdoor porch. In the process, we've actually reduced the amount of lot and building coverage on the lot because that connector footprint was reduced in size. It was offset a bit by the other change which is that we have expanded the parking pad that we had originally. Sure. So if the board wants to look at this elevation, the self-elevation, this was what was approved last year in October 2019 where this is the house that connects to the barn and if you go to the next slide, this is the proposed self-elevation where now it's a breezeway. So it's connected by a roof with holes and so this is open air. So that's the difference. So I'll show it again. This is a full building that connects the two structures and then the next proposed is now a breezeway connecting the house to the barn. Is that correct, Bill? Yes, and the space that was previously occupied by this connector structure that I was referring to, Marines, which is actually north of the open porch that you see in the revised self-elevation there, that footprint has been removed and so there's just a vacant space there that will now be sort of a garden space and so that's what I was referring to when I said that the actual coverage on the lot has gone down because that footprint has gotten smaller. It has been offset a bit by, if you look at the site plan, which was I think one of the earlier exhibits, you can see that the previous approved site plan had essentially a square parking pad that was intended to accommodate two cars and the board asked that we expand that pad to show that we could accommodate four parking spaces outside of the garage structure that will also be there, will house an additional two cars. So the revised site plan illustrates that and those two changes combined, if you look at the site plan that Randy Iser prepared, which is earlier still in the sequence of drawings, you can look at the changes there and you'll see that the coverage numbers and percentages have actually gone down from the original submittal. Otherwise, the footprints of the buildings and the intended construction is essentially unchanged from what we had intended previously. So if I read this correctly, is it Mr. Tunnell? Is that correct? Am I pronouncing your name correctly? Correct, yes. So what you've done is, it looks to me like you have taken out what was originally a study in a bedroom which was connected to the garage shop and now you just have a covered porch there and so you have more grassy area and less coverage. That's what, so I guess that'd be the approved floor plan against the proposed floor plan. Yes, so this is where, this was the approved floor plan what you're seeing now. As Steve just mentioned, this is like the study, the bedroom, the connector, all this and then if you compare, this is the proposed, now it's a covered porch in courtyard. So we'll go back one more time. Yeah, and Maureen, if I may also point out that the bedroom and study that you just described was actually to have been in a portion of the existing barn, whole barn building. It occupied one bay of that structure and so in the revised site plan you'll see that the barn structure that will remain is, instead of being an L-shape to include those spaces, it will be just a simple rectangle. It will only be two bays wide, east to west. So that footprint has, that's the effective reduction in the footprint that I'm talking about. Sure, yeah, and then if you go back and looking at the approved sheet here, you can see the parking layout is smaller that could accommodate two parking spots, is that correct? And then now, and now this is a larger parking area that can accommodate at least four cars, is that correct? That's correct, yes. Again, the intent there was when we got this approved initially it was with the provision that we could in the future build an accessory dwelling or actually improve the existing small structure that's at the front of the lot that was originally built as a milking parlor and that is approved to become an accessory dwelling and for that reason we needed two additional parking spaces on the site and so the site plan now shows that that is not only possible but that that improvement will be made when we do the initial construction of the house. And then the other proposed change is not change but you added a apron onto the curb cut? That's right, yes. Your suggestion, Maureen, we have shown that the driveway will include a flared apron that conforms to the the town's requirements for an eight foot radius on the inboard inbound side and a 12 foot radius on the outbound side of the driveway. So this was the original plan, the curb cut onto a selfie street looked like this and one of the conditions said that the applicant needed to provide an apron onto the street before they got their certificate about occupancy I believe. So Bill Tonello is meeting that condition. I forget which condition number that is but that is one of the listed conditions for your review. So now that he has met that radii requirement. Are you done with your presentation? Is this a good time to start asking question, Mr. Tonello? Yes, I believe that covers it. I'm happy to answer any questions. So I was out at the site today just to look at it and am I correct that the existing there's a red building that is closest to southeast street is that the what you call the milk barn is that what you're going to incorporate as the supplemental of the cottage is this designated here? That's correct. The other thing I noticed is that there's a lot of old hardscape, cement, aggregate asphalt in a lot of areas. I'm assuming that you're going to take up a lot of that hardscape and that if it isn't needed for either the driveway or the parking areas is that correct? That is exactly correct. That all of that paving that you're referring to is on the south side of the barn and which in I guess in the drawings that you're looking at would be on the left to the left and so what what you're seeing in if you're looking at Randy Eiser site plan for example it shows a paved area that will remain as part of our finished improvements that is 16 feet by 36 feet and that is actually a portion of that concrete apron that you know is in there that was built to you know for the all the agricultural equipment that used to go in and out and so all the rest of that pavement is going to come up and we want to keep that one piece just because we're trying to preserve the agricultural character of the existing buildings and you know I just like I sort of like that old pavement I think it's kind of cool. Thank you. Do board members have other board members have questions? If not I guess I just have one last question before you get your building permit you would need to submit final details on materials and detailing from the building beyond what's here in the plan that you've that you've provided us I assume additional from additional right and you're you know that you have to do that so this is this is not this is not final but it was what was it's good enough for our for our purposes tonight and then you'll have to provide more specifics to the building department correct? That's it that's exactly right and you know happy to answer any questions you might have about those elevation drawings that you're looking at because I think those are you know pretty accurate in terms of what we intend to have as a final product but you know I could speak to the materials and I will certainly do that in the the construction drawings that we will submit when we get ready to go to permit which hopefully will be in the next 60 days. Well I think for our purposes you've given us enough information the building department can look at that for meeting code and and safety issues so that's that's not really what we have to deal with here so but people could ask questions about it if they like but I don't think that's germane to what we have to deal with tonight understood all right last chance for questions or comments if not then I move the board approve the updated site plan oh Mr. Langsdale didn't see you okay um on the east elevation uh from the October 10th 2019 there are uh let me go back a second you have in your proposal the one that was approved lighting plans that are dark sky medium base outdoor wall lights um three watt uh bronze low voltage uh hardwired path light uh and then a kichler 310 117 which I'm not sure where that's supposed to go I think under a um on on the deck or something under the overhang but on that right yes on on the east elevation you show three carriage style lights which are not dark sky compliant okay I would I would say that I don't know do we make a recommendation that those have to be replaced with dark sky compliant lights I mean we're not doing conditions here um who tell me seems to me that um it's the spirit of what we would would intend would be that these all are dark sky compliant um on the side um and mr. tunel would you um represent to us that you intend to put dark sky compliant um light fixtures on that east elevation for those three wall wall mounted lights absolutely and those as you can see are you know essentially representations of a figure that had not been selected at the time that it was drawn um and so I will I will make sure that that we select one that that can be compliant absolutely okay so so I think we can if we move to approve this we can say instruct the building department to make sure that those are dark sky compliant Maureen um I'm reviewing this the previously approved special permit uh for this project and condition 23 specifically says that all exterior lighting shall be dark sky compliant so the building inspectors uh when reviewing the building permit application will be will be referring to all the conditions that are listed in the special permit special permit decision to ensure that the applicant meets those requirements so and so that's a condition not affected by the motion today we only have one two and seven not 22 so that would remain in effect yes correct yes okay I think that answers your question doesn't Mr. Langsdale yeah only that this this uh this was approved a year not quite a year ago with these on there and nothing has been done to change the what is presented on the elevation so I would just like something a note to uh the permitting people that they need to be changed to dark sky compliant that these specifically are not although there is a condition that says everything has to be what it has been approved is not so I would like to make sure that that gets changed okay all right okay any further questions comments all right if you know I move the board approve the updated site plan building elevation and floor plan pursuant to conditions one two and seven of the approved zba fy 2020-10 special permit and that we um indicate the need indicate to the building department that all lights that they check for all lights to be dark sky compliant and consistent with the bylaws of the zoning board of appeals is there a second okay um any discussion on that motion yeah I'm sorry I gotta come back uh I think what you're saying is that they have to be dark sky compliant but I think there needs to be a note in there that what was approved on the the east elevation they are not dark sky compliant and that they need to be changed to be dark sky compliant I think we need to specifically say that what was approved does not adhere to the condition and that it needs to be changed but isn't but isn't that um um maybe david could help us with this but isn't that if it's required in the condition 22 that they be dark sky compliant or 23 um if you if they if it's already in a condition the building inspector must look at that and enforce that mr waskevich can you help us with that yeah I wanted to jump in so um one thing we do look at is meeting notes like even from tonight so marina if you could put some notes specific to that topic um but we also do look at the conditions like was mentioned earlier but I'm sitting here I understand as long as I'm still in the office I will make try to make sure that that happens so marine put that as a note into the meeting um and we're they'll still have to abide by the by um condition 22 and by the instruction from the in the motion we made that they all be dark sky compliant in uh accord with the zba rules and regulations I think we got it for you Keith I think that's what you want yeah thank you sure yeah miss parks miss parks you had your hand up or were you just saying three it's 23 23 thanks for the correction all right okay um any further comments on the motion if not this is a roll call vote the chair votes aye mr langsdale hi miss parks hi mr maxfield hi mr meadows hi motion carries unanimously um congratulations mr tennell good luck thank you so much appreciate all of your service we now move to the public hearing we have one item left in the public hearing that's zba fy 2020-42 say cross b request a special permit to allow a non-owner occupied duplex under sections 3.3211 and 10.38 of the zoning bylaw located at 65 high street map 14 b parcel 90 general residential rg zoning district are there any disclosures I could not attend the site visit but I did stop by the property today to view it who is there and can give us a summary of the site visit questions asked and comments made I was there okay mr meadows we we walked the site the exterior of the site we're told about where the new parking spaces were intended to go um that there would be some removal of some trees cypress from looks of them that would permit new parking area to go in we were told that the downstairs apartment came along with the front bedroom of the upstairs apartment so that the front bedroom was not part upstairs was not part of that apartment and so consequently the downstairs apartment essentially is three bedrooms and the upstairs apartment is four bedrooms it was noted that um there are three utility meters attached to the building the person who gave us the tour did not know what those three meters hooked up to he told us that there are only two panels in the basement and that the panel out in the garage is a sub panel we don't we don't at this point have an idea of what that third utility meter would be attached for or used for to my mind there's a little bit of confusion within that context as to whether there is the probability of another apartment being contained in the building that's something that confused me to some degree anybody else have other specific things keith i do thank you um and we walked as we said we walked all the way around the house we looked at the stairway to the second and third floor the which is outside on the building which had been put on i presumed not that long ago it was approved as a special permit there were three mailboxes and as he said the three electric meters on the outside the parking what we saw when we got there was that there were three cars parked in the driveway it's well two cars parked in the driveway one right behind the house nosing up to those trees that constitute a break there um none of the cars while the the parking um plan says that there are three in the garage and one uh around the side where the trees will be taken out there were no cars parked in the garages uh one of the doors in the middle we were told has a door opener automatic door opener the other two do not and therefore they are manually operated we also noticed that there was damage to the door in the middle and that it on the bottom and that it needs repair or replacement um we were told that the trash and the recycling i presume would be inside the mid door of the garage but that brought brings up the question of well will there be room for vehicle there um we were not uh shown inside the garage so we did not see uh any of that um the let's see we were told where the proposed uh for the fourth car was and that's now been shown on the parking plan that's been submitted recently uh the lighting the side porch uh the south side porch there's a carriage uh type light under the roof of the first floor and under the second floor it was hard to see what kind of light it was but it it certainly did not seem to be dark sky compliant uh nothing has been said about those two places where lights are and the front porch has a carriage style which is not not dark sky compliant which is uh under the roof of the front porch um and that's i think all i have in terms of the site visit i think there was one where there was one other thing that was mentioned um marine had asked about snow removal and the person who gave us a tour around didn't have any real indication of what where the snow went but i would have assumed that the snow would be compacted where those cypress trees were i don't see any other spot to put that much snow um the driveway is pretty close to the property line so there still is i believe a question what would they what do they do with the snow if they if they put the fourth parking space in that area where i assume they put the snow now okay um let me go through what we've received in submissions from the applicant um she submitted a request for a list a certified list of the butters a site plan that was done by a surveyor in 1989 a letter from the surveyor from march 2020 floor plans for the basement first second and third floor photographs of the building's exterior an amended management plan photographs of light fixtures an updated parking plan a complaint response form a sample lease an updated survey um site plan dated july 11th 2020 and photographs of the interior of the building i think that's what everything we have isn't it marine no other submissions from the applicant all right um who wishes to speak for the applicant hello i'm fey crossby i am the applicant um and your address fey miss crossby my current address where i live yep yes currently i live at 1127 sialito court in seaside california nine three nine five five okay go ahead well um i'll try to be brief because i know that your time is very scarce um and i'll and i also have to warn you that i've been having technical difficulties marine probably saw me dropping on and off and on and off uh we've had ash falling on our uh distributors here in california so sometimes i seem to just lose the internet and um kevin cook who is on as you can see you can't see his face kevin um will take over for me and indeed i'll be passing it over to him so i'd like to um break this into four parts first thanks a thanks to you all a thanks for what you're doing a thanks for preserving the spirit and beauty and wonderful nature of amherst and for your service that you're doing a thanks to kevin who is my property manager and i'm really grateful to kevin for everything that he's done and a big thanks to marine who has worked with me um we started in february rob mora in february sent me over to marine and through covet and other um challenges i i'm very very grateful for your help at every moment um the second thing i'd like to do is to make a slight correction and give a little bit of information um so a slight correction is about the interior of the house indeed it's not three and four it's four and four bedrooms the let's um not talk about floors but let's talk about uh apartment a and apartment b apartment a covers three bedrooms on the first floor and one bedroom on the second floor apartment b has two bedrooms on the second floor and two bedrooms on the third floor apartment a has two um two restrooms bathrooms an apartment b has three i beg your pardon apartment a first has three bathrooms and apartment b has two bathrooms uh and then um i don't know why there are three mailboxes that's news to me there should really only be two mailboxes currently apartment b has four young ladies living in it they're they're students in a one of the colleges and apartment a might have tenants in it if you say i can have it be non-owner occupied but i've reserved it for myself uh as the owner however due to covid and some ill health i can't get there uh until covid allows until i feel safe to drive or fly uh there so um so i've said my thanks i've said a little bit of correction and um or supplementing of the information and then let me give you some context and then turn it over to um let me give you some context and then uh say one other part and then turn it over to kevin so the context is why how did this all come about and again i'll try to be very brief in 1994 i bought that house at 65 high street i lived there with my younger son uh till 1998 in 1998 i moved to california for a job um offer that came along my younger son went off to college my older son graduated from college i during that one year i kept the house and my younger son and i had lived in one apartment and rented and when we bought the house from the tans uh there were many students living in the other apartment that was very helpful to us um financially to start with then over the time that we were living there sometimes we lived in the whole house then we moved to the upstairs and we rented out the downstairs and then when i came to california and tim went to college i rented out both apartments and did so in the belief that i was complying with the law i then sold the house to some people named seth coop for schmidt and meg buvye seth and meg made some changes in their life they got divorced and then meg made some changes in the house and so moraine has uh told me and shared with me many of the applications that meg has made and she moved the staircase from one place to another then uh meg was making more changes in her life and i and the real estate gods had smiled upon me in california and i decided i wanted to buy the house back again my purpose in buying it back or my intention was that i had um at one point when my when my elder boy graduated from amherst college we slept 20 people in that house that night we had a lot of people aunts and uncles visiting it's a wonderful house for gatherings and i um had intended to give it to a not-for-profit so i was gonna uh i was gonna move out to amherst i was gonna retire from my work here go out there and come back to that house uh my health took a left turn and everything changed and i was the owner of the house but i had no ability to um to get out there so at that point i had a property manager named scott goldman and scott made a change in his life and he uh told me about kevin cook kevin is an individual he's not a firm who does property management but kevin knows the house intimately he has worked on it many many times now since i bought it in 1998 and i do i need to go ahead okay since i bought it yeah let's understand your plans yeah okay when since i bought it i've been to the house for two hours so my understanding of some things is a little out of date and foggy i went to put the house on the market after the certain things happened and when i put it on the market the realtor said this says owner occupied i then learned that owner occupied meant that i was supposed to be living in one of the apartments and i had had both of them rented out as soon as the leases were done i made sure that i only had people in one apartment um the reason that it might be good to have it be non-owner occupied is that um it it opens up the possibility of it being bought by an investor who would then have somebody living in each of the apartments i don't believe that that would change the nature of the town or the neighborhood but that's really termination to make uh i um i'm grateful again that you all do what you do i have loved the town of Amherst and i think you helped to keep the character of the town of Amherst at this point what i would really love is clarity uh kevin and i have worked hard all the site plans and many different things Maureen has given me hundreds of hours of service and so uh i'm i'm hoping that we just clarify the situation and of course i hope you clarify it for it to be non-owner occupied but um whatever it you decide i know will be made in good conscience and for the good of the town uh i don't know if you need any more information from kevin but as you can see he's here and prepared to give you more information if you need it thank you thank you um but first the first question i have is i'm confused about um the number of apartments for each unit you said that the first floor has is has three bedrooms one of the in the second floor one of the bedrooms in the second floor goes with the first and which which we're looking at um a drawing do you have a you have the um the uh existing conditions drawing i'm pulling it up okay so this is the first floor whoops and it has one two three bedrooms the bedrooms and so this is the second floor so which bedroom which bedroom belongs to unit a so the bedroom is marked bedroom number one is the bedroom that belongs to unit a and then you then you have two other bedrooms up on the third floor that belong to unit b so one two wait one two and then you go to the next page yeah the next page one two three four so bedroom four and bedroom five you say belong to you dwelling b yes so i apologize that i can see how this is confusing because when the plans were made up uh they were labeled for the floors of the of the building but um if we were to label it for clarity um and and starting here at the third floor and then marina i hope you'll go back to the second and the first floor i would i would call what's unit bedroom unit five i would call that b four bedroom unit four i would call that b three then if we go to the second floor what's labeled what's what's no i understand i think we understand that that you you're just taking two out but um you have the way to get to bedroom one on the second floor if you're part of you part of dwelling a right is you go out you go up the stairs where you could go enter directly into the living room of unit of apartment yeah what's what is the is there a wall if you on the second floor looks to be open to the stairway okay so and again um this is uh i believe that i am telling you the truth but then i hope that if i have a mistaken memory that heaven would correct me so when you go up the stairs you have a choice and you're on level two you have a choice you could go into apartment b through its living room exactly like that or you could go to bedroom number four of unit a that way so is what is the is there a wall we weren't able to get in i don't think the the board i know the board wasn't able to get in and observe this and i don't remember seeing the details on the photographs the interior photographs that you sent but is there a doorway or is that an open space is it locked for only for only uh residents of apartment b for lack of a better term or is it open it is a french door a glass french door that leads on to the stairwell it's not there we don't have a picture of that i'm sorry is this is this it is this for the is this the french door here this looks like the second floor middle living room which would be that yes living room 12 by 14 be on that curtain you see the curtain there if you were to open the curtain you would have french doors that go out to the landing okay seems all right and then the second question i have so the second question i have is on the third floor it looks to me like there is we got a third floor a living room area and it appear i don't know what's behind the purple shade i think mr cook said that that was used as a background for zoom meetings or something but what i'm impressed with is that number one that picture seems to show a bed in the living room on the third floor if you go back to that picture moraine over to the right hand side of that picture against the wall over around the exactly that appears to be a bed certainly the layout would be useful you could use it as a bedroom up on the third floor and even if we even if you accept that the fourth bedroom for the for unit a is on the second floor and the rest are on the third floor up on the on on the second there's three on for unit eight is three on one and one on two and for unit b there's two on two and it looks to be easily could be three on two in this the living room could easily be a bedroom um and could be used by students that's and you're only allowed for bedroom for unrelated people in a in each dwelling unit so it's i'm concerned that we what we have here is an undeclared bedroom and that students would use it um and use it as a bedroom quite frankly so i'm i'm concerned about that miss crossby and of course we can't we i don't think we would waive the um the zoning bylaw requirement that allows you to have more than the zoning bylaw allows for residents per each unit if you're not allowed you can't we can't do it yeah we can't do it yeah so that that's troublesome for me um do you understand yes so um i understand that it is troublesome um i'm i have to say my eyesight is not so great as to be able to see exactly what you're seeing i see the i see that but i don't know oh yes it's a bed yeah so i i was trusting the young women um there's one young woman named sarah who is the uh they all four of them have signed a lease with me there are four people on the lease and um after your visit and the concerns that were relayed to kevin and to moraine and then to me i um called sarah and i said what's up and she said that uh this curtain and i i believe that kevin cook communicated this to you the curtain is because there are four students with four different agendas at mount holyoke college and they're all trying to do their zoom and they're trying to not hear each other and they're of the what made it made the apartment attractive to them was the two living rooms or study spaces that could be separated um uh i asked is there a fifth person living there and she said no there is not i i think college kids are college kids so i hope there's not a fifth person living there and i would trust that there's not but um what you've pointed out that's one of the yeah but that's that's difficult for you to ascertain if you're in you're not an owner occupants and that's one of the concerns that we have right yep i can yeah i have some more questions but i know mr maxfield had raised his hand go ahead yeah i was just thinking about um you know i know at least every other day i'll see a posting in uh you know the umass facebook group for um somebody looking to rent out the living room of puffed an apartment or in the boulders or something like that um so i know that's certainly not allowed in the boulders or or puffed in but it still happens anyways um i i guess my question would be to you mr chair you know what what is really kind of our responsibility here to to prevent something like this and kind of what is our authority to do that because uh i i certainly would believe the landlord acting in good faith um to not want uh to be in violation of having more people in there i i certainly don't think it's being advertised that way so i guess what what would we we want to get at to to prevent something like that if we still wanted to approve this what what's kind of our our recourse here because i i wouldn't want i wouldn't want to our reason for a denial to be a fear of of them violating the terms of their lease uh which which at that point is really on on the tenant um i i guess it's here if i understand what i understand what you i understand your point in your question um you know and generally you wouldn't raise generally you wouldn't have a concern uh but for the most places but for the fact that this is such a convenient um and we see evidence of additional additional bedding would be very convenient and easy for this to happen especially if you're not there to monitor it um and so i think that our our our ability in this case to to make sure that we don't approve a um dwelling unit that is so attractive to students that they easily could violate the zoning bylaws with having too many people in it is to one say that you have to um have building inspector come by and make sure that each of the room rooms are being used as they are as they are designated on the plans and that would require um you have to require them to building inspector to be able to go in and look and verify that at various times and that is something that we don't typically do but we don't typically also grant permits for special permits for units that can easily be over over populated for lack of a better term so you'd have to have some kind you'd have to have the agreement on the part of the landlord and the inspection services to go and inspect them and make sure that it's not being used you'd have to be able to do that for my satisfaction you'd want to have to be able to do that more than just before um leasing and so you can see it when in in real time so that's why i think that's the only way we could do it mr maxfield marina is that um is that about right mr westevich is there any other way to deal with that well we generally don't inspect duplexes and if this is truly a duplex that's not something we'd be doing but another thing i'm noticing is this house is not really set up as a duplex and you've got a shared doorway and the stairwell there that should be fire separated between the units because right now you're you're right that somebody could easily go into the other apartment and maybe it's locked but that door in itself has glass in it so that does not protect the occupants of the upper unit if there should be truly a fire so i think there needs to be a little bit more code review on this house just to create duplex itself and is there a second egress from that second floor if that well they would they'd go out the back the back stairway yeah and they share the stairs yep they share the stairs i can see yep um mr langsdale chairman couple things um with that um what we're talking about the second floor with between the living room and the bedroom with the glass doors the the thing is that of course that even though it may be locked from the bedroom bedroom four of apartment a that cuts off the the second egress for the people in apartment b there is then only the outside staircase so there is then therefore if that door is locked there's no second egress for the people in apartment b if it's not locked then it's open to people going into the bathroom and or the bedroom there so and and nothing that we have received beyond the comments uh the verbal comments says that that bedroom and bathroom belong to apartment a there's nothing in the management plan or nothing that we've received the other thing is in the lease agreement there is nothing it says that there should be no more than four uh unrelated people living in any unit an overnight guest may be present for no more than three consecutive nights unless less lesser gives written permission but there's no consequence if in fact they rent that living room as a bedroom which it seems they have because there's a bed in there uh i'm not sure even i i think that purple curtain covers the um the the entrance into the hallway as far as i can see um so and and the third on the third floor right mr. Langston on the third floor and the third floor living room on the floor plan doesn't actually match the picture that we received because there's a half wall in the picture you can see there's a half wall uh where that curtain is and there is no half wall on this so yeah so this is this is not a correct representation of that living room and the fact that we haven't been able to get in to see this place i think is i think it's important that that before we can uh vote on this i think we need we need to be in there and see it i've talked i i've been on other ones where we've been in several times where um the rooms were uh rented out that were not bedrooms at all and we had to finally clear that out but um but it's incumbent upon us to make sure that that this is followed that these are followed specifically also because if it's going to be too uh not it's going to be non occupied owner occupied uh we have to it has to be very clear about what areas belong to which apartment how many people what the bedrooms are and what the other living spaces what their use is that has to be very clearly delineated so that if something does come up then there's a there's a standard to which you can measure what you find if it's a against what that what we've said that what its use is i'm sorry yeah mr roskevitz um can i ask you a question i know that for duplex it's normally either side by side or one on top of the other is there provision to allow a duplex to be partially one on top of the other so this kind of formation where you have unit a unit a on the first floor in one part of the second floor and unit b on the second floor and all third yes it is doable it's a little more complicated with how it has to be fire separated but the other turn i do have is the shared stairway because the egress has pointed out is within the other apartment so you know i mean some changes need to be made i think in order to make this a true duplex yeah mr mattos hi let me ask also it doesn't appear as though there's a second egress from the third floor area yeah that's not required all that is required is the bedrooms have egress windows are they guys well i guess we wouldn't know if they're egress windows until somebody expects them that is correct yeah so we can't answer that question at this point but a good one mr mattos thank you um mr maxill uh i i think i'm looking at the the right photo here i could be wrong um the one that appears to have that that staircase on the side of the building i have to go back one more um now go back to the original drawing oh the drawing i want to go uh the floor plan you want to look at that one right um because i have one of the photos in the packet that i don't know if this has been been updated or this is an out of date photo but it appears that there's only one small window that would be where the wall is am i am i looking at the the correct one i have so uh the photo here that i'm looking at oh uh yeah is that um early on um hold on a second an out of date photo yeah hold on a second uh fey submitted this as part of her application give me a minute we're trying to i think it was exterior photos okay so this is the front this is the side so this is the northerly side where the driveway is and then this is looking at page 16 yes and then this is the southerly side and you uh one more photo i don't know which photo you want me to look at uh 16 i think is the the oh you want okay just one if you go down one more down oh this this no i'm sorry this yeah right there i'll flip it there's only one window on that side uh what's these um outdated photos um i did hold on if we bear with me i did take photos yeah on the egress from the third floor if there is if those windows are egress windows how once you get out of them it doesn't appear as though there's any way to get down once you get out even after you open the window that is correct as a one or two family you're only required to have egress size windows and then you would have to be assisted you're not expected to be able to walk all the way down it's different as an apartment building oh that that's the code for for amherst that's the state building code state building code miss park she had your hand up i was going to say that window i think is on the second floor um because if you look at the second floor picture there's only the one small window and then the third floor has two windows okay so that's yep i understand so i don't think we have a photo of that uh floor thank you um also it looks like um oh if you bear with me it looks like a photo that fey had submitted is outdated um bear with me for one second this this is the side i think this um this is the side of the house this is the yeah so this is the side of the house uh this is like oddly shaped here this is the front door and this doesn't show stairs but then if you go back to the apple packet it has stairs oh no this is the other side yeah you're right this is the other side yeah sorry i confused myself so i think we've got some what's helpful about this process is that we're identifying issues that should be reviewed by the building inspector and be reviewed by us um so there's there i think there's several issues that we want to get um some more information on before we make any decision on this another set of issues involved parking i was there today and there were four cars parked on the driveway um i don't know and um i if they can park in the garage that would mean if they aren't using the garage that would mean there's up to seven cars on that that um parking on that property when what we've talked about is four so are those do you know if those that garage is empty and is it are is it available for three cars to park in it and is there sufficient room for the trash to be held held there for eight people and still have a car in them in the in one of the bays so i'm gonna have to ask kevin to answer that because i haven't been in the house but before he answers that i also um uh um said another forgot to tell you about another thing which is the the electrical apparently there are three meters what i was told when i bought the house back in in 2018 was that one of the meters uh is for the outside lighting and the um any lighting that happens in the garage which is also a barn the reason that that existed separate from the other two meters i was told is that meg bouvet at one point had hoped to develop the barn into something she did a fair amount of work so that there would be um electrical work i have no desire to develop the barn into anything other than a parking space and storage space and uh including trash storage and other storage so um the bills that i received over the two years that i've owned the house would be consistent with that explanation one of them was seven dollars a month so seven dollars a month what would have been the outside electrical use and then there's a another unit uh there's unit a and unit b electrical uh but um i i'm again i'm i believe that everything that i'm telling you is true but uh i it's a belief and it's not substantiated with in-depth visit and knowledge okay thank you that mean it could be for common undivided uh electricity that's for the use of the owner it could be um i think that's something we should have to verify yeah other questions or comments concerns miss parks um i so i did have a question about the driveway because it seems to me that's the obvious place to park and when we went for the site visit we parked in the driveway and so i guess i need to ask moraine and david if if there is do do they need to park in the garage i mean is that are they not allowed to park on that driveway if they parked on one side of the driveway which is what it was they had one car parked behind the house and then like three or four in a row on the side of the driveway i will say that in for me looking at the garage the garage has not been used in a very long time and i um either the doors would have to be changed or removed or something i don't know how people would drive up and expect you know open those doors to park there so is that i mean are they allowed um is there a certain width that it has to be in order to park in a driveway yes so there was um looking at the the submitted site plan there was a question whether there the driveway itself was wide enough for cars to park and uh and for um enough room to turn around um but but the site visit did um indicate there is enough room um i mean it does look like there's cars sort of parking at the edge of one side of the driveway um to accommodate cars to pass you know it appeared to me when i looked at it today the cars were parked with part of the tire on grass and off the hard surface and that it would be a they would be able a car would be able to pass by them barely it's tight but barely passed by them i didn't measure it i think there's a i think there's a width requirement and i'm not i don't have that on the top of my head but that is something that has to be examined because i'm not sure it's really wide enough for parking at that place miss parks and how many um so if they had four four people living in each dwelling what's the number of parking spaces they need to have is it eight no they need to have two per unit two per dwelling unit so they need to have four as a minimum i would just say that for me looking at the parking situation adding the new parking space kind of going caddy corner and having to take down bushes and almost having it drive in the backyard to me seemed very awkward i i mean i'd i'd rather see people parked along the driveway than creating this odd parking space in the backyard so i just i'm just throwing that out that i'm you know if if it's okay for people to park along the driveway that's more sense to me than adding the parking space mr langsdale uh as i understand that the issue here is that the driveway to have parking on it has to be at least 18 feet wide the driveway as far as we know is not 18 feet wide that's something that needs to be determined they're not allowed given that we're what is before us is to an application to make this a non occupied owner apartment complex they're not allowed to park on grass so the fact that that and then the other thing is if you've got four people parking in the garage and the back places and you've got two or three cars parking along the the driveway what happens if the fire comes on or there's an emergency can an emergency vehicle get past them that's uh that's something that we have to uh know for sure uh it's not about well they can park a little closer this way or that way if it's going to be a non owner occupied it has to be to the the code and the part of the problem is that no one at least who's there now has an incentive to park in the garage because two of the doors are manual the other one is i don't know if anybody has the door for that the clicker whatever you call it uh but uh nobody's parking in there um and then there's a question of is there enough room once with the trash barrels and stuff in there um it seems to me that if we're going to look at this as a non owner occupied place that the uh parking has to be delineated and dealt with and um it can't be just willy-nilly anywhere in the in the driveway unless they want to look at uh can they widen the driveway enough given where it is next to the property line i don't know that at this point but that's certainly something they could look at the other question i have is mr cook is listed as the designated contact person and um it just has his name and his telephone number so the question i have is is that 24 hours seven days a week uh if it's not where who's the secondary person uh designated person to contact you know i was a good question is there an answer is mr cook your sole designated contact person miss crossby so um i again started this process and a long time ago i i thought that i had given several names i'd given kevin cook as the primary and i thought that i gave the name of maureen pat of i beg your pardon maryland patin as a secondary um so in the unlikely event that kevin would be unable to get there there was another number that people can get to um i have some questions that i'd like to ask too when when it's appropriate um just just a second um are there any other questions from the board i do have a question i agree and there's also an awesome opportunity for public comment i think yes mr meadows um the half bath on the second floor um there are two door access doors to it which seems to me makes it more available or as available to the other apartment as it is to the the bedroom itself indeed a different rationale for that yeah so um at the time that that i had that again with all the permits that were needed in 1996 or eight somewhere in there um we put that bath in and and that's when we put in again um with all the permits it was a it was a duplex at that time um i wanted to have this be uh um to have versatility in it so you obviously don't want strangers coming into your bathroom but the way to deal with that is to lock the door and so it it is a bath that is accessible from the bedroom and it is accessible from the landing area uh when when you don't when you want the people in this second floor bedroom part of bedroom b to not have access uh you lock off that other door um and uh i hadn't envisioned what you would want to do if you didn't want people to get in from the bedroom so it can be um uh at one point i had use of the entire house it was a single family house with a couple of kitchens in it and at that point uh it made sense to have access through a second door into that bathroom not simply have it all sweet for bedroom one what's labeled bedroom one which i would call apartment a bedroom four so yes it can be there are two doors and the way to make it not not accessible is to lock one of those doors all right okay thank you mr langstail um we've talked you've talked about this as apartment a apartment b and apartment a is the first floor plus this bedroom and bathroom and stairway on the second floor what we which causes problems in terms of uh egress as we've already talked about what is the what is your thinking in having this bedroom be part of apartment a well apartment a is a much more attractive apartment than apartment b uh if you were able to get into it you would see that it has a certain um historic charm to it and so on and and um the shared staircase i understand the concerns that are brought up about the shared case but i hadn't really seen that as a concern before and um the person who is in apartment a bedroom four now labeled bedroom one would go down that front staircase to join up with the rest of the people in apartment a similarly the two bedrooms on the third floor would have to go down one staircase to join up with the people in the back bedrooms now labeled um yes that now labeled they'd have to go down that staircase that you see that that's the third floor you're seeing to get down to their friends on in apartment um on floor two of apartment b i hadn't thought about any regulations that might um transpire about common use of one staircase does a staircase need to be entirely devoted to one apartment or another and if so that would change things um and is in that list of things to be to be clarified you know i if i can i i think that we raised some serious questions about this application and i think this has been helpful for us to have this discussion and identification of issues that i think you and your representatives my feeling is you and your representatives need to talk to buildings inspection services and clear up a lot of things many of which we've discussed i'd also want to give the opportunity before we and i think for that reason it may make sense for you to hold off on this for the time being until those questions can be asked but i also want to give the opportunity for any public comment from neighbors and butters if they have other things that they would identify that we need to need to view and need to review with the with the town so it i think we've identified a lot of questions after the after the comments from the neighbors may i ask the questions that have arisen yeah in fact that's one of the reasons we ask for comments from the public is that to give you an opportunity to respond so if you ask more questions of you after they have commented you can you can add i don't know if we can answer them but you can you can answer you can ask um so i don't know if there are people from the public who wish to comment and what i'd like to do is is open up public comment right now so if you do if anyone from the public has comments you'll have to press the button to raise your hand or if you're calling in which i don't know if anyone is you would press star nine no one's calling in so you would just have to raise your button for raising your hand i'm not seeing any right i don't see anybody okay and if somebody does later on we'll we'll bring them in but okay miss closby you have some questions yes my first question is i don't know your local covet regulations when would do you have any expectation of when your covet regulations would allow you to get inside the building well um i can speak to that um we don't actually have an official local policy on zba members doing site visits inside houses i'm just been sort of offering suggesting that applicants provide photos in lieu of going inside just as a preventative measure um you know someone from inspection services uh can certainly do a site visit and i could accompany them and you know if zba members do feel comfortable they can certainly attend or maybe just one zba member um so it's not it's not an official policy okay so um then my next question is that uh as i indicated i don't know when i'm going to get be able to get to amherst and um i like to be law abiding uh i was sorry that i had inadvertently broken the law and didn't know i was breaking it until i was informed by jackie's usco so um i have apartment a is not rented out it is just an empty apartment i didn't think it was good for the neighborhood or my house to have nobody in the in the building um and i was very grateful that kevin did all the hard work to get four young ladies into apartment b that's great am i breaking the law if i just have apartment a be i'm not i'm not physically there but i don't see how i can physically get there you know i i think you're asking i don't know how you can maybe mr wasseviks can answer that question but i don't know how you can be uh an owner occupant if you're not there and that's what you're asking you're asking us to make this a non-owner occupant building so i i mean mr wasseviks can you can you answer that so at this point there should be a unit available to the owner to move to go any time or whenever that may be in order to comply with the current requirement so i don't think there's any way to not have that space or have that space occupied by somebody other than the owner that that's not exactly what i'm asking it is available to me it's sitting right there i feel brave enough to get on an airplane or if i could figure out how to get to drive across the country yep so but you know i if i if it were when i wasn't owner occupier i would go away on vacation i wasn't there 24 7 i would be gone sometimes so i would like to consider that i'm an owner occupier who's in absentia it's not rented out to anybody now that i know what the regulations are but from your point of view am i breaking the law by having my legal address be someplace else you know i i'm not sure that this is the forum to answer that question i mean what you really want to know is can you legally rent out that space and i think you just got an answer to that no i that i mean i'm not going back to what she's saying so if your address is california you are breaking the law or at least what zoning is requiring for that house you need to be having that your primary residence all right that's good to know because i want to be able to vote and i need to do the paperwork thank you you answered that very clearly um mr wasavage then my last question is um and i guess mr wasavage would be the one who would also answer this one so um if the house goes up for sale as an owner occupied house or as a single family dwelling and i would be very open with is now not on the market but if it were and i'd be very open with the potential buyers is there any problem with me selling this house at this moment you would have two choices it has to be either as an owner occupied duplex or it can revert to a single family but then you'd have to depending on what the zoning is at the time whether or not you'd have to go back to the zoning board to bring it back to its original two family or if it would have to report remain a single family that i can't answer so if i if i would like to air on the side of caution and if it were to be put on sale i would list it as owner occupied duplex and i would explain that that means that that there must be the owner living in one of the units would that be correct that is correct okay thanks all right i think i sense a a consensus among our members that this is not quite ready for prime time yet and for a vote and i think i would suggest that you consider withdrawing without prejudice this application work within building inspection department you can reapply um at a later date once you've worked out and some of these questions and inspection services has looked at it and can also answer some of the questions you can get your representative to talk to the town about it i know it's difficult when you're in california but you need to have somebody who can answer the questions for us when we have them at the next meeting so i would suggest that the best course of action and you can do what you wish but i don't i don't sense there's votes for this tonight that you withdraw without prejudice this application marina another option if if you'll indulge me is that you could continue this to uh maybe november or something that you think is reasonable to give miss cross be enough time to communicate with inspection services to deal with whatever matters need to be dealt with and so let's just pretend it's uh continue to november 15th um and for some reason if miss cross be hasn't dealt with it you could then continue it again or maybe at that time she can withdraw without prejudice um just so it gets continued um and uh so uh a legal ad and the butters um um and fees won't have to um come into play again yeah but okay that's a possibility yes considerate that is i think that's a very considerate um customer friendly um amundation maureen i think that uh in my interest of clarity and uh just getting my affairs in order i think i probably would be better served by withdrawing without prejudice and that um i should try to see if i can uh change my legal address to massachusetts so that i am complying with the law i'm such a law-abiding freak okay so are you making the are you requesting to withdraw this without prejudice is that what you say or are you i i dependent on what mr maxfield is going to say i think that's what i'll do but i i'll decide but hold on a second right i'll recognize mr maxfield if we're going to do that but i just want to make sure that so i understand what so i understand what you said mr maxfield so i guess my question here first is for uh mr waskevitz um so is miss crossby currently in violation of the law by not being by not having that as her current address that seems to be the case i don't know when she might have changed residents or she when all of this transpired it but yes as of today by not having her address there she is not it's not owner-occupied um i guess my follow-up question here is uh you know just being brought to our attention in good faith by miss crossby to be in compliance with the law do we have any recourse to give any sort of leeway that while she's getting this this organized that we can do we have any authority that we can somehow how wave that or say that she's in absentia where she doesn't have to file needless paperwork just to comply with this law if we can somehow say well this is pending for however amount of time we could say she's considered resident there in absentia something like that so she doesn't have to change her legal address to somewhere one she's not living two i don't don't think she's intending to live uh is there anything we can do for that because i i think there is okay so the way the house is set up it's really a single family so as long as it is continued to be a single family in other words you're not renting out more than the four bedrooms or four unrelated people for the entire house there'll be a single family it's not going to lose its status unless the single family continues for over two years so if within the next three months whatever it's going to take this gets straightened out it's still a duplex let's just say they're not renting that other unit right now the only trouble is is well i'm trying to think this out so she'll she can own the house she could be renting it but she could be renting as a single family so i'm not seeing a problem there right now um but she she can't rent out the unrented out units right now the apartment one she could not rent out correct yep um i guess i am going to again one more time advocate that you consider continuing this fey and the board um just um so you could have an opportunity to have a meeting with the building commissioner to fully understand um what type of work and perhaps the i mean the building commissioners won't be able to give you cost estimates but give you sort of a ballpark idea of how much how much work would need to be done to bring that your house up to code if you do want to make that a two family home for the future um and if and then to continue with this public hearing as with this application um and so then you would avoid uh resubmitting um a new application just so i just want you to be fully aware of your options of all the options um may i get clarity again i know we're being recorded so may i get clarity to understand exactly if um if i have understood correctly and written down correctly if i were to um withdraw without prejudice my application and if i were to keep apartment a empty or allow the people from apartment b to wander down into apartment a and turn on the faucets and flush the toilets for me occasionally and then have it as a single family uh unit as long as i did not do that for more than two years i could revert to owner occupied status uh when the lease ends here i could move out myself and i could rent to some new set of renters have i understood all of that correctly or is there some detail that i got wrong as far as i understand that would be an option i wouldn't recommend folding it out for one year and 11 months um before you make a decision this is really a short term solution to help you out if you want to look at it that way um that being said i i would recommend that um you get a letter from the building commissioner yeah i and again i would with that i think marine has a good idea let's let's i'll continue this until a date that gives you the ability to go in the only thing i don't like about that i'm concerned about is that we there's no is would there be a subsequent of butters notice marine if this i could um you know i think we should do that not at a necessity but at a um courtesy courtesy i could send another notice to the butters that reside 300 feet to this property of whenever the public hearing day to advance to the next public hearing yeah um and then just say if we schedule we'll schedule the next meeting now so you know um let's just end the meeting is october 19th between now and october 19th if next week you're like you know what forget it you could you could then send us an email saying you know what i'm just going to withdraw and then you wouldn't need to come to the meeting but or you'll come to the meeting but so did i understand you need to say marine that i could um say that i'd like it to be continued but next week i could say you know i thought about it and what i'd really like to do is withdraw without prejudice but how then does the zoning board vote on that if i'd like to how does that happen of the vote if i were you can have a representative at the meeting it can be my email as well yep we can get it done there could be an email vote oh sorry sorry steve you could you could request it through email and we could take up the matter before us yeah and how um this has been such an evolving and organic process that i'm wondering if i were to say i would like to withdraw without prejudice and you might say no no no no she can't do that we want to decide it now and then i'd be sort of in a called spot you know miss crossby i don't think that's going to happen we're trying to help you out and if we deny the you're with your request to withdraw we prejudice your ability to come back for two years we're not going to do that so i think you have two choices i would i would encourage you to not withdraw at this moment it gives you the opportunity to go into the building department and work with them as long as we send in a butters notice out i think we have we maintained our responsibility for the neighbors if there's another hearing on this and if you decide you want to withdraw you can still have that option open so i think that's the best i think that's the best for you i know you if you wish to withdraw you can make that request of us now but we can move to to continue this to a later date and i'm that's my inclination and i'd like to do that and unless you're insistent on withdrawing it i'm going to move that we continue this to a date certain we pick a date and sometime in no i would say in it's going to take you a while to do this especially long distance i would say we pick a date marine in late october or early november sure um i would say since or october it's wild we're talking about october uh over is kind of full jam yeah so i would say the next available meeting would be november 12th okay one moment when is veterans day um nope normally at the 11th one second let me look at my calendar holidays september october is the 11th oh right but we okay so the 12th does work okay so i move that we continue this public hearing on zba f y 2020-42 until november what's the date marine 11th November 12th november 12th if you're agreeable to that uh k it's really up to you obviously um i think i need more clarity about what would be expected of me between now and november 12th well you need to you need to be able to go into the building department and ask and get some of these questions answered you can or to to talk with them or to have your representative do that and if you come along november 12th if you want to if you haven't been able to do that you want to withdraw you can do that if you want to if you have it figured out in terms of what it's going to cost you to bring it up to code to make it a duplex you do that but it seems to me that i can't answer all your questions but you tonight we're not ready to we're not prepared to approve this you can either withdraw it and start all over again or you can continue it much and i think i would encourage you to to continue to continue it try to do your work over the next two months and if it's not if you haven't got it completed you can ask for it to be continued again um should i uh decide that i would like to sell the property to an interested party would does does my decision right now have any implication for that or another way of saying that is if a party is interested in buying the house what could they do to make sure that they comply with amherst regulations again my gratitude to you all keeping amherst special i agree with that i those are all reasonable questions but i think at this point i don't know the answer to that and i don't know that that is really our job to help you with that i think you should talk to talk to miss zoos go she's she's very she's a well-known realtor in the area you said that you used her you can talk to the town um departments and ask them about it as well and you can ask your representative mr cook to work on this as well but i don't want to be in the position of giving you legal advice as to what it's what's going to happen i think we should really move on with this this subject tonight okay so you're allowing me to keep my options open right this options open by a continuance and i am very appreciative of that and i would like to request that and then later should i decide that i would uh like to withdraw without prejudice i will communicate that to moraine paul that's correct that's correct thank you all all right so you've heard the motion is there a second second is there any discussion on the motion if there's no discussion the vote appears on the motion to continue this public hearing to november 12th at 6 30 that's at six you're so good about that marine morning i guide i love it at 6 30 um i share votes i mr langsdale hi miss parks hi mr maxfield hi mr meadows hi hi the vote is unanimous the motion the motion carries thank you good luck to you mr crossy thank you um the next order of business there's no other applications before the board the next order of business is public comment on any matter which is not before us today um is there anybody in the public that wishes to speak uh yes held up miss green bomb this was on the agenda and i want to tell you they're coming after some very bad decisions made by the council and other boards in the last few days your decision to decide that art doesn't need to be looked at by members of the neighborhood i think was a big mistake i looked at some of the things that they plan to put there and it looked like a railroad yard in harlem i don't want to look at that when i drive by and there should at least if you decided it would i don't believe it was a non you know a de minimus change i think putting some of that right stuff there should have at least if you don't want neighbors to talk now then maybe neighbors should be on the board that judges what kind of art is going to go there but to not allow the public to have anything to say and have to drive by those billboards that they were showing as examples i think is horrendous all right and i think when you have public meetings they should be open to public comment because nobody in north amherst knew that was coming and i only knew because i asked for the packet and i think other people would be all right furious well but i mean there's nothing you can do about it now you can't make me say that some north amherst people should be on the board to judge before something like that goes up on a wall well we're not going to discuss the what was already on the agenda for the night this time we appreciate your comments can you do something to fix it but we're not going to discuss a matter that there was an item on the agenda of the meeting this is for non item non agenda item so what are you going to do in the future when something like that comes up that affects a huge neighborhood up here which has been looks pretty bad and we thought maybe it got cleaned up a little bit when you when the auction house got got landscaped and looked nice and now you're going to put this horrible art somebody may think it's hard other people don't and that's why we need to have a way to get public input i know i know you feel strong about this this is not the topic i'm not the only one people okay thank you miss gilda thank you very much okay is there any other comments on matters not before the board tonight okay thank you very much um is there a motion to adjourn i'm adjourned is there a second second any any discussion of the motion to adjourn all right it's a roll call vote i vote i mr langsdale i miss parks i mr maxfield hi mr meadows hi the motion carries an unanimous we are adjourned thank you thank you everybody thank you