 Welcome and thanks for being here. We are thrilled to have you join us for another episode of the nonprofit show. Today we have one of my dear friends that we've met through mutual professional connections and colleagues, Shailushi Baxi Richie, and you are a consultant in the Chicago area, and we're excited to learn more about you, and especially your topic today, which is the Four Principles of Interim Leadership. Before we dive into this conversation with you, Shailushi, we of course want to make sure there are viewers and listeners know who they might be looking at or listening to. Thank you to Julia Patrick, of course, for creating this platform. Julia serves as the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I get to serve alongside Julia and play with her each and every day as the co-host of the nonprofit show. I'm Jared Ransum, the nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group, and we continue to be so very grateful for the unwavering support and commitment from our presenting sponsors. Thank you so very much. Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit nerd, fundraising academy, staffing boutique, and the nonprofit thought leader. If you joined us in that green room chatter, you would have heard that we are marching towards our 600th episode, and we keep going and growing. Our topics continue to expand and evolve. If you missed any of them or you want to go back and listen to today's conversation, please check us out on Roku, YouTube, Fire TV, as well as Vimeo, and Podcast. I still like to say, but wait, there's more that Shamuel commercial. So you can absolutely listen to us through podcast wherever you stream your podcast. So go ahead and queue us up for that. But I'm going to queue us up for our guest because again, today we have Shea Lushi with us today. I wrote this phonetically, so let's say, Seva Consulting, and first of all, welcome, and please let us know, because you let me know, and Julia already did her homework. What does Seva mean? Seva is a Sanskrit word, so Sanskrit is the equivalent of Latin in India, and it's a word that means selfless service to others. So I have spent my entire life in nonprofits, and when I decided to move over to, I suppose, a business side. It doesn't really feel like business, but the business side. I wanted to really find a word that encapsulated why I was doing this. I love that. I think that's such a cool thing because at the end of the day, Shea Lushi, we, that's one of the guiding principles. Whether we describe it or discuss it enough, it's kind of one of those innate pieces of all of us that serve, and so awesome. Part of what you're doing, and one of your service points that we really wanted to get into was the four main concepts behind interim leadership, and Jared and I have been all over this topic for so long. We see this as one of those major booms to our sector as so much change has happened, and so let's get into this conversation because you talk about these four concepts that we kind of need to wrap our heads around as we're looking at interim leadership, and the first word you use is systematic. Yeah, it's systematic. Absolutely. So for your viewers who may not be familiar with the concept of interim leadership, interim leadership is really about transition between two permanent people, quote, unquote, permanent. We all know that nothing is permanent, but really it's between your permanent outgoing person and your next incoming person who's gonna be their successful successor. And so that's that in between space. The transition is interim leadership. So part of what that means to be an interim leader is that you do your work in a systematic way. It's not random. It's not just kind of throwing the wall and see what sticks that there are specific processes and approaches that interim leaders use to get a sense of A, what needs to be done, and B, how to move forward. So this is not just babysitting an organization? No, absolutely not. In fact, I have talked to some potential clients and I consider part of my work as an interim leader to also do some education to people who aren't familiar with the idea of interim leadership to say, hey, there's a difference between having a temp and having an interim. Yes. If you want a babysitter, that's absolutely fine. Some organizations don't need a full-blown interim transformational leader. They need someone to keep the lights on and bring in the mail for three months while the next leader comes in, it's a good temp. Yeah, I love that you do that. I also feel the same way that whether I have the capacity to take on the interim role or not, it is always my role to provide education and information in the sector for this very viable opportunity. So thank you for shining light on that. It is very systematic and it is a great opportunity, I believe, for the organization. Now, full transparency, Shailisha and I met through the third sector in the Interim Executive Academy Network of Professionals. So there are many, I don't know how many, but there are several certified interim executive succession leaders and Shailisha is one of them. So thrilled to have you in dialogue today. Talk to us now, let's move through the systematic and I know that each and every one of these four principles that we're gonna talk on today, we could talk about for probably hours. Well, let's move into how it's a deliberate discussion and conversation because as Julia pointed out, it's not necessarily a substitute teacher or a babysitter. That's the other one I like to throw out there. It's like, oh, we just need a substitute teacher. No, this is a deliberate decision. Talk to us about this. Sure, so the fact that interim leadership is deliberate goes, in my opinion, hand in hand with the fact that it's systematic. So you engage in a systematic approach where you use certain tools, they're done in a certain way, means that you have to be deliberate. And again, it's not a just throw it at the wall, see what sticks, but it's also not, well, now I feel like doing this and now we're gonna focus on, let's say now we're gonna focus on HR policy, but after two months, we're gonna move and we're gonna focus on programs. And then we're gonna focus on fundraising. It doesn't ping pong around. You go through your system, you use certain tools and based on those tools, you lay out a plan that both marks what needs to be done, lays out the timelines for doing them and lays out the benchmarks for what it's gonna look like when it's done. Yeah, so how do you do that exactly? Is there a pool of resource that you use? So I will say, I do use a lot of the third sector resources. I don't wanna necessarily make a pitch for them, but that's how I got trained. So I use those resources. But I would say that the way to do that is to first start with a series of conversations and interviews, both with board members and with staff. And then, based on what you hear, you might even talk to funders or community partners or program participants or volunteers. The first step is really to getting deep and wide as deep and as wide of an understanding as you can get about what is happening at this organization. Right, interesting. And I think one really, really important thing about being systematic and being deliberate is that, and we're seeing this a lot with COVID, is that it's hard to separate people's personal lives from their professional lives. And so I always joke, during this transitional period, people have feelings. And our role as interim leaders is to help people work through their feelings as well so that they're ready for the next person whenever that person comes to take on the leadership role. So being deliberate means asking a lot of questions, laying out a plan with a timeline. And it also means really getting buy-in from as many people as you can. So it's not one person doing something over here and everyone is like, I didn't ask for that. It is, that's also what it means to be deliberate. Just put it forward and get buy-in. So I have a question about this, because this is pretty, this is a deep dive. And I would imagine that there are a lot of boards that hire an interim that think it's just a placeholder and then they could be a little bit shocked or disconcerted by some of this information. I mean, do you see that? Absolutely. And this is true even when boards are fully bought into the idea of having an interim leader. But let's be clear, we have all worked with boards in our lives and boards are volunteers and they're giving their time and they're giving their energy. But sometimes their perspective on an organization is a bit removed as it would be you're not doing the day-to-day work. So when I start talking to a board, I put this out there. Again, part of the systematic approach. This is what I'm going to do. This is what you're going to hear from me. I promise you, you will learn some things that you didn't necessarily know and you might not like it. Yeah, yeah, I always, you know, I always start with that organizational health assessment and it's very similar to what you said if not the same of those conversations far and wide, you know, with so many internal and external stakeholders. And I also want to make the point that an interim succession leader can happen and be deliberate for almost any situation, right? Like we have seen during this COVID-19 pandemic and Julia, you and I always talk about pandemics. Because there's so much going on in our world right now. Yeah, and really, you know, this could be any of those executive levels and it could be, you know, maybe someone's out for health reasons. We, you know, we also hear of maternity or paternity leave. We also hear of, you know, the Great Resonation is happening and so many of these executives that have held onto the reins, you know, during this COVID-19 pandemic, they're finally saying, that's it, I cannot do this any longer. So there's so many reasons in which you might want to consider this deliberate discussion and conversation for your organization. And I want us to talk now about how this is change oriented because I can only imagine and all of the interim succession, you know, services that I have offered, Shay-Lushi, have all been change oriented. So what are you seeing in your community and with your, you know, clients in regards to this? Well, often I think that boards and staff, and this is, I think, true of everyone, that when you're in a situation, when you're, you know, just like fish don't know that they're swimming in water, that staff don't know what's, what's possible because they're just, they are doing what they do. This is how the organization works. This is what we're doing. This is our, these are our limitations. This is how much we can pay people. Any number of things that people feel constrained by who's in, you know, who's in power, who's been on leadership, what kind of staff people have. And for me, the great joy of being in interim is to come in with fresh eyes and say, hey, doesn't have to be like this. How about this? How about this? To be able to look at everything fresh and propose changes that, you know, maybe the board doesn't want to do or maybe the staff don't want to pick up but to offer suggestions and this vision of possibility that there are actually different ways of doing that. That we're not necessarily tied in to this approach, which I think even, like I said, even if the organization doesn't take those approaches, they say, we can't do that for any number of reasons or we don't want to. The idea that there's something might be able to be moved is liberating in a way that I think a lot of things aren't. It gives people that, it gives people the idea that change is possible and we're not locked into this the way it is. I have to admit, that's one of my favorites as well. I love looking at, you know, systems and processes, procedures with efficiency and streamlining in mind and asking the questions, you know, through a process mapping discussion, how do we get from point A to B? Why do we take this path? You know, what would make your life easier? And you said this in the very beginning with systematic, having the conversations with the staff because often they would say, this would make my life easier. If I could just do fill in the blank, this would make my process and my day so much easier and having those conversations, seeing those light bulbs go up, you know, or off, brother, it is so fun. Shalisha, I have a question for you. I mean, this is pretty immense when you think about talking to these different people and the personalities and the fear with which people address change and we've been through some stressful, you know, years right now. How long does it take you or do you plan when you're going to come back with all this information to the board? I mean, this could take a lot of time to figure out this ecosystem. Sure. So a typical interim engagement lasts nine or 10 months. That's usually, that's the amount of time that you can make change without necessarily moving into now you're a permanent person. You know, you get to a year, 16 months, and it feels like, oh, you're just the executive director. So really being time limited is part of this process. But the first 30 to 45 days. Okay. When I talk to my boards, when I talk to my staff, I say, look, the first month, two month and a half, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to read almost every document I can get my hands on. I'm going to talk to every person I can talk to. And I will pull together what I call my organizational assessment of what's happening. Which is not all, here's your laundry list of problems. That assessment is this is the state of your organization right now. This is what's working really, really well. Let's build on that. These are some of your challenges. And these are the solutions I see to these challenges. That is this, you know, to quote, share. It's just a jumping off point for negotiations. Yeah. Yeah. That it's in that moment that your board, your staff, whoever's involved in sort of guiding this transition says, okay, what are we going to focus on? Can't focus on everything. Can't do everything in nine or 10 months. But what are we going to focus on? What are those big priorities? Which again, you know, using systematic processes to be deliberate to move change forward. I mean, you can make change without being deliberate or systematic, but is it really going to serve the organization in the longterm that I think that's really the question to be answering. I think the other thing about being change oriented in this, you know, it's easier, I think, to look at systems or processes or tools or whatever to say, oh, we could do better. One of my greatest joys in being an interim is to look at how the organization is staffed and make changes in the staffing approach that sometimes the previous person will have hired somebody for a role. That's not really where they are going to shine. And so how do you, how can you move people around or move roles around, not just necessarily their titles, but how can you share the workload in a way that everyone is going to be at their best? Yeah. You know, that is so interesting. And first of all, I just have to commend you because your passion on this is exuding. Like, I love hearing and seeing your passion in this conversation. Thrilled to know that you are in our community to help support and lift up this conversation. You know, you're right with staffing and I'm curious if you could talk to us about, you know, the workforce shortage, the great resignation or the great reshuffle, however you want to phrase that. You know, are you seeing more of your clients and more of just the community at large being more open to seeing job share or shifting in these, you know, work spaces? Yeah. Like, are you seeing that more people are open to this dialogue now? I believe so. I believe that more people are open to dialogue around job share, around flexible work timing, not just workplaces, but work timing and to adopt more of a management by objective approach. Not exactly that. I mean, I don't think that nonprofits have fully adopted the KPI management by objective approach that happens a lot in the business world. But this idea that I, because we're not all in the same place and haven't been for quite some time now, that the supervision of work needs to happen more about accomplishing objectives not about watching people in their desks do jobs for eight hours a day. So there's a lot more flexibility that is being, that people are willing to give but a lot more flexibility that's being asked. And so a part of interim leadership now is a, how do you facilitate that kind of flexibility to keep people? How do you push for the kinds of workplaces that people want to be working in? And that's a huge thing. And anyone who's been in the nonprofit sector or been around anyone in the nonprofit sector knows that one of the biggest challenges of the sector has been low paid with lots and lots of hours. This sense that, well, you're really committed to the mission, so you should do whatever, however long. And I think just like in the corporate world, people are like, not doing that anymore. So part of our change is also how do we change culture? Which is very, very difficult, right? That stuff is very sticky. And it's also the kind of work that is often unspoken. There are unspoken rules and unspoken expectations. As an interim, I consider it my role to bring some of that to light and to make it explicit. What are we asking of staff? What are we asking of boards? And what do we need to support everyone to perform their roles well? Instead of just letting it slide underneath the surface with this, we all know what's expected here type attitude. Yeah, yeah. So there's four principles. And again, you've spoken so extremely passionate about all three of them thus far, the systematic, the deliberate, the change oriented. And when we were preparing for today's conversation, we talked about the transcendent. And you said, ooh, that one's so much fun. Yes. So I can only imagine, you know, your conversations and talking points for this. So let's dive deep. We don't have too much time remaining. We warned you and all of our viewers and listeners. It goes by so quickly. But let's talk about this fourth principle. So being transcendent is about rising above or going past, right? So when you transcend something, you go above or beyond what was. Now, I think people, when they think about transcendent, they think somewhat like it's gonna be some spiritual experience. For me, sometimes it is. When I see an organization go from point A to point B and just how much everything is operating 10% or 15% and more effectively, more efficiently and staff is happier, everyone's happier to be there. That is transcendent, it is spiritual for me. But from an organizational standpoint, the idea that if you are systematic, if you are deliberate and if you focus on change, you can move beyond where the organization has been and level it up, right? And using the analogy or the metaphor of video games, when you earn enough points, you level up and you're stronger, you can do more. You get certain skills or whatever. That is how I think about being transcendent, which is you go from a certain place and you go through this process and you do more and you gain more skills and then you're at another place and you're sort of leveled up. I like that, I like that a lot because that's something that we can all understand and it doesn't seem punitive. It doesn't seem like, oh, well, this was such a disaster work somewhere else. It's positive, I guess, is another way to look at it. It's encouraging. It's encouraging. Absolutely. That being transcendent is just as much about building on strength as it is about addressing challenges. I think a lot of times, again, a lot of times the perception is that's an enemy, we're gonna come in here and change everything and you're just gonna point out how awful it is and all we're gonna do is slog on these challenges. No, no, no, no. There's part of being an interim is also celebrating what's great about an organization and what it's done so well despite the challenges and let's address, let's build on what's going great. Let's address some of the things that are kind of weighing it down so you can level up, so the organization can level up and ultimately all of us who care about the sector, what do we want? We wanna see the organizations do good work, serve more people for well their missions, whatever it is. And I think we're all part of that big sort of, let's do more, let's get more out there because we wanna see the world be a better place and however we imagine it to be. When I hear level up, I also hear increased in maturity and that could be our infrastructure, it could be our administrative systems. I know that there are so many organizations that have seen an increased growth of staff and operating budget over these last two and a half years. That's a blessing and a curse because it comes with growing pains, it comes with this unknown of, these are uncharted territories we've not been in before and it really is a great opportunity to look and celebrate what you have done often with very little and what you can do often with a whole lot more of support and resources to you. And so I too, Julia, I love the level up and I also see this as maturity for the organization, for the systems, for the potential of what that means. As you said, Shailushi, for the community at large because that's ultimately what we all want. Yeah, absolutely. That's absolutely true. I often think too, one of the saddest things, one of the most challenging things for me about the sector is that we, like you said, we are always asked to do so much with so little. This issue that like, oh, we'll pay for programs but we don't wanna pay for any operating. Well, how do you think programs work if you pay for lights and rent and telecom systems? And so often when I move into an inner engagement, the programs are zipping along, programs are great because there is always so much focus on making sure that the work gets done well. And that's what you have to report out to funders on anyway. So it's really, really important to do it well and do what you said you were gonna do. It's the operation side that's deeply ignored, overlooked and under resourced. So part of my role as an inner, I think, is to be creative also about how do we transcend what we have with what's available? Can we do things a little differently? Can we do things? Can we, again, deploy our resources differently? Can we find something that's free? Can we implement a system that's gonna streamline things that people in the day to day, because they're in the day to day, don't get a chance to think about. I often joke that founders start organizations, they're not interested in good HR systems. That's not why they start organizations. They're driven for mission, but HR systems are important. They're part of it. Yeah, they're part of it. You grow and you level up and you level up and you level up throughout your maturity or adolescent cycle. All of that is so very important. I have one quick curve ball for you and I guess it's not really a curve ball, but in our final few minutes here, I'm curious for those organizations that are out there and either considering this or now considering this as a very viable option, is it important that if we are serving, let's say the human services sector that we find an interim that is experienced in human services, or is the interim session leader kind of crossover in these various highlighted sectors? Could an arts and culture come into education and vice versa? Could you speak to that just briefly before we close up? Good question. Yeah, absolutely. That is a great question. It's not gonna be a definitive answer. I would say it absolutely depends. And it depends upon what your organization's staffing is like, do you have really strong program staff? Do they know what they're doing? Are they directed? Do you have a very strong development department? Do you have a development department even? And the board should ask itself, how much programmatic work are we going to ask our interim to do? If it really does require going out there, interacting with all kinds of people in the community and representing the agency, then it is really important. However, if the work is internal, if it's operations and organizational culture-based and that the interim doesn't have that much role as a public-facing person or a program-facing person, it's less important because the systematic work, the org change work, the staff supervision, the efficiency work, that's always gonna be the same. Those skills are transferable. It's really the knowledge. And so boards should ask themselves, do we need someone who knows this issue or do we need someone who's really gonna be able to work internally at the organization? I love that. Thank you for that and thank you for sharing your wonderful wisdom and expertise with us. Again, Shailushi Baxi-Ritchie, CEO of SAVA Consulting. Check her out, check out the consulting firm that she has based out of Chicago. Do you work nationally? Are you focused on the Chicago area? Most of my engagements have been in the Chicago area. I do work nationally. I'm not able to relocate right now, but hybrid engagements I can absolutely do. Perfect. Well, thank you very much. Absolutely, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. Well, good. Again, everybody, I'm Julia Patrick. I'm joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom. Again, we wanna thank all of our presenting sponsors who allow us to have these amazing discussions. Everybody from Bloomerang, nonprofit, couldn't think of my own business, American nonprofit academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit nerd, fundraising academy, staffing boutique and nonprofit thought leaders. These are the folks that join with us every day to hear the amazing wisdom and passion that we've had today with Shailushi. So we are just delighted that we could have yet another episode. And as we end today's episode of the nonprofit show, we want to remind everyone and ourselves to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone.