 to the Teenage Mutant Digital Guide to Color Theory. For about 13 years I've been teaching people about programming in various tech things for about four, for various organizations, and coloring color theory is one of my very favorite technical-adjacent topics to teach. And that's because it's a really interesting combination of science, human factors, aesthetics, and it has a really big impact on users. And qualified to talk about this particular topic, which is the Teenage Mutant Digital's, and color theory because I wanted to be one of them. I also am very excited about this microphone because I like to pretend that I'm a boy dance. Six parts. We are going to talk about color groups. We're going to talk about color associations. We will talk about the color wheel. We'll talk about color combinations. We'll talk about color properties and terms. And we'll talk about accessibility just a little bit because it's important. So let's do this. So when we're talking about color, you need to start at the beginning and that means we're going to talk about color groups. And so this helps us really understand, search this, understand the foundation and the principles of colors. And all colors fall into one of three groups. We have warm colors, cool colors, and neutral colors. So when we think about warm colors, these are generally thought to be very positive and energetic. And colors in this group have actually been shown to have the right physical effect on people. They can raise your blood pressure, they can raise your respiration rate, they can even enhance your metabolism. And if you think about the kind of brands that use warm colors, you'll see a lot of organizations that are trying to communicate fun or energy or playfulness. So think about brands like this who have one of the best food companies use this. Like Donalds, lots of red and lots of red yellow because they're trying to, one, like make you excited about eating high quality snacks. And they also kind of want to get you in and out really fast, right? So they want to kind of keep you moving in and out. Next, we have cool color groups. Colors in this group are thought to be a little bit calmer and more relaxing. They're often associated with stability and composure. And then again, if you think about the kinds of brands that are using these colors, they often really want you to trust them. So you'll see a lot of banks and hospitals and insurance companies and Facebook. They really just want you to be like, it's fine, we're safe, you're safe here. And then, we have neutral color groups. So neutral colors are often more conservative. They can sort of skew a little bit cooler or a little bit warmer. It's good that these top three colors, they're skewing a little bit more cool so they have a little bit more blue in them. Colors in this sort of the cooler side of neutral will be like grays and sort of more on the black side of colors. And then these two colors in the bottom are skewing a little bit warmer, so they have a little bit more red. So things like tan or beige. And so these are often used as like the base of the color palette. So you'll often have, like I said, a neutral color, so it'll be sort of a foundation of your color palette. You'll have a warmer, cool tone that uses your accent color to really pop. Last group we'll talk about now is colors for mutants. It's not a color group, but you know, it's mutants. And they tend to have fairly specific uses as well. Very specific sort of cultural associations. Just to be thinking about examples of groups that fall into this category, we have things like the X-Men, Godzilla, the Turtles. And this leads us to color associations. So like mutants, we have very strong cultural associations with colors. So whether or not we really consciously need, realize this color is caring meaning. So the exact meaning can be very subjective based on design choices or sort of other sort of contextual pieces of the puzzle, but a lot of it is very heavily influenced by the culture that you grew up in. So that means that it's really important to be aware of your user when you are choosing color colors and selecting making these choices. Because different cultures, different traditions, different societies and religious beliefs have very different cultural associations with color and they're very strong, very deeply held associations. So if you think about an example of this is the color white. In Western cultures or many Western cultures, white is often associated with cleanliness or purity. It's a very bright, often sort of like a cleansing positive color. And then in many Eastern cultures, it's actually associated with death. It is the color used in mourning and it's often used in funerals. So one color to very different associations. So this is beginning as a good reminder to like know your audience, know your user. So when we talk kind of back to the color groups, back to some specific colors, when we think about these specific colors they have very strong associations with them and red is one that is a very, very strong color. It is often associated with determination. It's also very polarized. You have some color associated with the devil. It's also the color associated with the Cuban. So it's like love and hate. It's a very passionate color. And if we think about the turtles, we have Raphael, sort of good ol' breath. He's kind of a Jersey boy. He's a little bit sassy. He's got a lot of attitude problems. But he's definitely very strongly associated with this particular color. His personality is really rooted in and reflected in these cultural associations that we tend to have with red. It is, he's very strong. He's very intense. He can get kind of angry. He's very passionate about things. He has opinions. He really leans into it. Like he's a very strong opinionated character. Then we have the color orange. Now orange is also a very, it's also been a warm color group. It's used a little bit more on the positive playful side of these sort of reddish colors, whereas red can be very passionate. Color orange tends to be much more positive and energetic. If you think about the kind of brands or places you might see orange, there's a lot of things that are included in my children's books or things that children will use. So it's a very positive, playful color. And we have Michelangelo. Right, so Mike is the goofy one, right? He's the one who likes, he's very playful, he's very silly, he's very goofy. He is also sort of like the really outgoing, friendly one in the group. And he's very, again, very tied to this association that we have with orange. Then we have blue. And again, blue colors are a little bit more associated with stability. Blue is, we have Leonardo. So Leonardo is like the leader of the group. He is the one who is, he's sort of the one who like, he's the ringleader. He's the one who makes the plans and sort of follows through on things. He's the one who, if he says he's gonna do something, it's gonna get that. He makes sure that everybody stays on track and is doing what they need to do. Then we have purple. So in the history of purple, it's pretty interesting. So purple has historically been a really difficult dye to make. So the things you needed to create the dye for purple was very expensive and it was really hard to access. So the people who had purple clothing, fabrics, anything like that were associated with money. So you have people that were in the clergy, people who were in like monarchies, so people like kings and queens, those sorts of folks. Those were the only places of the only people that you tended to see the color purple because it was very expensive. So because of that, that's where historical, where where purple came from, we understand that so we sort of culturally associate purple with dignity, wisdom, sometimes creativity, anything but the turtles, we have Donatello. So Donatello is like the engineer of the group. He's the problem solver. He's very curious, he's very like-hearted, but he's very smart and he's very, he's a little bit more studious than some of the others. He tends to fix things very easily. He likes to get his hands in stuff and really understand the problem and engineer a solution for it. Then we have Neutral. And again, Neutral colors are often associated with relaxation, they're dependable, they're often very calm, and we have Splinter, right? So Splinter's like the neutral, rounding force of the turtles. And all of the, all of his, all of his, you know, children, turtles, they are these little accent colors on his sort of base neutral, stable foundation that he sets for them. So now that I've understand, you can talk a little bit about color groups, you understand sort of the foundations of colors and where they come from. Now we can start to talk about the color reel. So this allows us to really dig into the relationships between colors. So this is how we understand the period of colors and how they are created. So get started with that. We're gonna talk about primary colors. So primary colors are the base colors. All of the colors are created from these. And those colors are red, blue, and yellow. So essentially, you cannot make a color, you cannot use any combination of colors to make red, blue, or yellow, but all of their colors come from some sort of combination of those three colors. Then we talk about the turtles. This thing comes back to like the period of color, comes back to the period of personalities. So these two, we have this very sort of polarizing, warm, cool personality combination. We have Raphael is this very intense red, he's very much like, he's very aggressive, he's very assertive, we have Leonardo, who's like the most pure, cool color, and they balance each other out, they counter each other out really well. You have this cool, hot dynamic, and they sort of, we have one who's a little bit more firing, one who's able to sort of keep them under control and balance and keep them on track. Then we have secondary colors. Secondary colors are created by evenly mixing two primary colors. So a secondary color would be essentially like purple, orange, or green, and they're made by blending two primary colors, be the equal amounts. Then we think back to the turtles. We have Donatello and Raphael, Michael Angel, oh my gosh, excuse me, she said the wrong one, oh my gosh. So no, Donatello, Michael Angel. So again, we have this hot, cool dynamic. They still have very, very intense sort of personalities, but they're a little bit softer, they're not quite as intense as Raphael and Leonardo, but they still get some of that hot, cool dynamic where it's like Donatello's a little bit more studious, Michael Angel is a little bit more goofy, a little bit more free-for-all. So they still have that hot, cool dynamic, but they're a little bit soft, they're not as intense. The relationship that they have with each other and the rest of the group is not as intense as Raphael and Leonardo. So now that we understand color groups, we've talked a little bit about the color wheel and how to create colors. Now we can start to talk about combining colors. So this is one of those things that can sometimes seem a little bit, can seem pretty straightforward, like creating a color combination that's not so bad, but it can kind of turn into a vacuum of sadness. Like it's not always something as easy as you might expect. So we do have a few rules to kind of help you, help guide you in your color matching efforts. So to that end, we're gonna start off by talking about complementary color combinations. So this is one of the most straightforward, easy to produce color combinations. So you essentially take two colors that are directly across from each other on the color wheel. In this example, we have purple and yellow. So this is gonna be a primary color and secondary color. And you just do a line directly across the color row from each other, and that is your complementary color combination. This is not always the most effective combination because they can be very intense. That's a boundary edge between the two colors. So we took this purple and yellow and we'll slide them up right next to each other. That boundary edge between those colors can have a little bit of a visual vibration. It can actually feel pretty harsh. It can be kind of intense. It doesn't always look nice. So to kind of get around that, we have this concept of a split complementary. So this is where you take this complementary color combination. So there's two colors directly across the color wheel from each other. Then you go up a tick or down a tick on the color wheel, on one of those. And it gives you a slightly more softened combination. So you'll still have that high contrast pairing, but it'll be a little bit less intense, a little bit less punchy, maybe a little bit less of a vibration that you actually look at it. You'll see a lot of sports teams are really leveraging this in their logos. So you can. Then we have this concept of a triad. So a triad is essentially when you take the color wheel, you take a triangle, and you drop the triangle directly on the color wheel. So this gives you a really evenly balanced, straightforward combination which gives you a nice balance of either warm and cool colors because you're very, very balanced grouping of colors. So it's very easy to predict and very easy to use. Then we have this concept of a titratic color scheme. This is when you take a rectangle, so not just a square, but you have to take a rectangle and you drop it across the color wheel and it gives you, again, a very balanced combination of warm and cool colors. And it also gives you the turtles. This is as close as I get to go see if there is something there. You end up with this. What they have seemed like a very arbitrary grouping of colors is actually very intentional. So we have seen that we have this very high contrast, punchy colors, and they are evenly distributed. They are very balanced. They get a nice mix of hot, cool, and aggressive, and a little bit softer personalities and tones. And there's contrast, but there's not conflict between these personalities and these characters. Thank you. All right. So now that we understand color groups, we've talked about the color wheel. We understand sort of the basics of starting to how we can make colors. Now we can start to talk about color properties. So this is to help us with some vocabulary, help us be able to make better conversations with people about color as one does. It's great to bring out at parties, impress your grandma on holidays. It's great. So, color properties. All right. So we're gonna start off with hue. So hue is essentially, it defines a pure color. In some cases, you can almost just use the term hue interchangeably with the word color. You'll often see these as a primary or secondary color on the color wheel. So these will be colors that are very bright, very punchy. They're often sort of the colors you might find in like an eight-pack box of crayons when you're a little kid. So they're often the colors that have names. So like red, purple, all those sorts of colors. Next, we have value. So value describes how light or dark a color is. So in this example, we have a low value color, which is this purple on the far side. So that means that it is actually absorbing more light than it is reflecting back into your eye. So a low value color is gonna be a darker color. And then we have the high value color, which is this yellow. So that means that it's reflecting more light back into your eye. So you have low and high value that just describes the darkness or lightness of a color. Then we have tone. So tones are made by mixing pure color with a neutral or gray-scale color. So the tone is essentially the term tone itself refers to the variation of that specific color or hue that you're referring to specifically. Then we have a tint. So a tint is made by blending a tone or a hue with white to create a lighter color. And then we have a shade, which is made by blending that tone with black or really dark color to create a darker color. So we have tones, and then shades and tints are variations of tones. If you really wanna be fancy, you can shade tints or shades. If that's too much, you can just say tone and it's still correct. So don't worry, be nice to yourself. All right, so let me have saturation. So saturation is pretty interesting. So particularly good saturation. This defines the range of purity of a color. And it goes from 100% saturated or 100% pure color, which is what we have on this far side of this really bright vibrant green-y yellow color to 0% saturated, which is in this sort of tonal gray on this side. So this is a really interesting sort of thing. So you can essentially, something that's also worth noting when you desaturate a color in equal steps, like this example here, you'll see that those bars start to look like they have to have a gradient in them, but that's just an optical illusion that your eyes are playing on you. It's actually just the color within each bar is consistent. It's just the pairing of each of those bars next to each other creates this like trick on your eyes that allows you to sort of look like each one of those bars is actually gradient, which is kind of an interesting thing. And it's also interesting when you are, actually when you're painting, so you're using like physical painting paint brushes, to create this tonal gray, you take two colors that are opposite each other on the color wheel and you blend them in equal amounts. And then in the center, you end up with a tonal gray. So you have completely desaturated that color by taking two opposite colors onto complementary colors to colors opposite each other on the color wheel and you blend them in equal amounts. And that ends up with a totally neutral color. It is completely desaturated, but it's still tonal. So it still has some of the characteristics and sort of visual flavor that you might find in one of the two like starting colors, which means it didn't pair very nicely with one of those two other colors. So if you were trying to select a color palette, this is a great way to find the right neutral color to use as your base. And then you can use one of the fully saturated hues as like your accent color for your logos or your highlight colors. And so then when you're talking about tonal gray, again it's made by combining two colors opposite each other on the color wheel in equal amounts. We have splinter. So splinter is the tonal gray of the turtles. So splinter is basically made by combining all of his students in equal amounts and then in the middle he gets splinter. So he is, you know, he's raised these midges since they were just little tiny radioactive babies. And he has basically done it and you see parts of him in all of the students. But he is neutral, he is very calm, he's very centered. So splinter is the tonal gray of the turtles. We get back to accessibility strategies because this is important. And when you talk about color blindness, about 4.5% of the population has some form of color vision deficiencies. So in the US that's about 13 million people. And this might not seem like something that is like, maybe this is sort of one of those things and like, this isn't my job. Like I'm an engineer, I'm gonna be working on, like back in I'm gonna be building tables. I don't know, like 13 million people was a lot of potential users. And if you're not paying attention to that and you're not being mindful of that or aware of that then that's, that could be a problem, problematic for your business. So, pay attention to that. So, Wendy are, one of the big things to keep in mind is don't rely solely on color, communicate a message to your users. So if you look at this example we're gonna start up with some forms. Excuse me, there's little forms, right? They're fun. They're great, love forms. So, in this example we see that we have success in error messages being communicated exclusively with colors. So the boundary of the inputs are changing colors based on, to communicate which inputs have the correct type of content put into them so the form would be successful on them. We have one, so this third one for email is red, which indicates like, this isn't gonna work, this is the problem you need to fix this one. The problem with this is that the most common type of color vision deficiency is red, green, color blindness. So, that means that you are now just right off the bat excluding a pretty significant number of users from being able to use this form successfully. Because if they can't see that, they can't see that color change. They're not gonna understand what they did wrong and they're not gonna understand why this form wants them in. And you're gonna have frustrated users think that they are their product, that's a problem. So, if we put this through like a red, green, color vision deficiency simulator, we can see that we can't tell the difference, right? So like, this is something just keep in mind like, think about your users, think about whether or not they can actually see what you see. So, we can see right now that when I have that, dude, when I put this through the color vision deficiency simulator, I can't see which form, which input is they want. So, a better solution again is to not just rely solely on color to communicate to your users. So, in this case, we have pulled in error messaging, so we're actually like lining up a little bit of language around to help a user understand what went wrong. And we're pulling in some universal icons. And universal icons is a little bit of a dangerous game, like that's not really, the concept of a universal icon is a little bit untrue. It's not necessarily something that exists, but these are pretty straightforward. We have a little check mark for success and a little X for failure. So, that's something that most people will be able to understand. And when you combine it with some very explicit verbiage around what went wrong, that will help them understand. So, now if we put this through that color vision deficiency simulator, we see that we can still figure out what's going on. You know what went wrong. We can go in and we can fix this. It's great. So, a little easy change, nothing huge, makes a huge difference for your users. And something to keep in mind too is that this now makes this form much more usable for everyone. It's not just focused around your users that have some sort of accessibility restraints. This makes a better product for everyone who's using it for your entire user base. So, that's awesome. Now, if we think of the turtles, what about the turtles before? We know we talk a lot about colors and how they are very much bound to the cultural associations we have with these particular colors, that they're a little fancy bandanas match. So, something we've got. We have to make it, you can't see all those colors. What are we gonna do? So, now put the turtles through a color vision deficiency simulator. And if we look at this, we can still, we can't tell based on just the colors alone, who's who. But, we can absolutely tell who they are because of their weapons. Don't rely just on color to communicate with users. So, simply by having these very distinctive, very unique weapons for each individual turtle, we have made them accessible. We did it. Amazing. So, essentially, this is just a good reminder. Don't communicate solely through color and expect your users to understand. You have to make sure that you're giving people multiple ways to understand your messaging and understand what you're trying to communicate. So, these parts, they colored colors and conspiracy theories. My research and references were exclusively from being a kid in the 90s. And I'm pretty sure that I nailed it. So, question for you. Should developers care about colors? Yes, so, even if you are not building up the UI of the product. Hopefully not. Well, fingers crossed. Based on the UIs I've seen developers do. That was mean. So, it actually does matter. So, Jeff just said that there was things about those examples that I showed to the forum that you weren't able to see. And maybe some other people in this room weren't able to see those differences until we pulled an icon to place. So, that is something to keep in mind is that there are places outside of just the UI of a product that your color choices can have a really positive impact on your team or make things easier for their team. So, Trello has a colorblind version. So, rather than just relying on colors to change the background or indicate which cards are ready to go or whatever, they actually incorporate textures. There are different settings on text editors. They print syntax highlighting color palettes that are more appropriate for colorblind users. So, it's something to think about like if you are fully color-sided and you're pairing a lot with someone or you have people on your team who are not fully color-sided, the choices that you make on how you set up your system or if you're pairing with somebody a lot, you could make it easier for them by switching the syntax highlighting on your text editor. So, just being aware of these things can be really helpful. We have our talk to people who don't write code. Let's call them normal humans. Oh! And many times I've heard or perhaps you've participated in a conversation where programmers are like, you should try programming and then normal people say, I could never do that. And the programmer's like, no, just try it. Everything will be cool. You can learn this stuff in several hours or whatever. That seems very reasonable to programmers but then you take the same programmer and you turn them to the designer or design team and they're like, designers, they create magic. I could never do a thing like this. Clearly you were born with these abilities and I as a lowly programmer could never do that. Could never do that. Why do you think that is? Why do programmers perceive design and color and like art in a large domain to be so impossible when they already are doing a thing that other people consider impossible? That's a good question. So I think some of it that I've sort of seen is some of it is this concept of like, well, that's not my job. And so there's a lack of, they don't necessarily feel like that's where they should be investing their time and energy. I think some of it is just a lack of context or understanding for what the job actually is. I think what I've seen or learned from being around engineers, that there is a tendency of sort of misconception that design is just putting the pretty on stuff. So you're like, oh, you're just there to make things look pretty. It makes me cringe. And it's like people say it in a good way. You know, they mean it. It's essentially like a microaggression kind of situation where they're like, oh, we gotta get some designer in here to make this look pretty. And it's like, hey, asshole, like design is a lot more than like making things look pretty. I mean, it's not how things work. So it's actually much more technical thought, especially like model-y design is incorporated in sort of modern and digital product development. It's bigger than just making things pretty. It actually has a lot to do with understanding users. It has to do a lot with understanding like why people do what they do. So there's some really interesting pieces of it that are actually fairly technical and can get pretty interesting. So I think something that is just a misconception or lack of understanding of what the job actually is or what the industry is. But it's kind of, it actually has a lot of parallels. Like I know quite a few designers who sort of switch pivoted from design into programming and part of why they did that is because it sort of hits on the same like creative buttons that they were getting from design and it just gives them a different outlook for that. And I think that there could be a place for that from developers as well, but I think that it just doesn't seem to be back in another direction very often. That's an interesting point. You do see more designers become developers than developers become designers. Why is that? It's kind of like one-way flow. It's probably money. You know, it's not, I don't know who's doing it. So, you know, before, when we were first thinking about launching a second program, in terms of we're going to do a design program, hence the terms we'll solve for hand design. And then started doing the market research and I remember really clearly this conversation with IBM where it said like, how do you get designers now? And they said, oh, we go to our institute and we'll hire five of them. We'll pay them like 45K. And then after six months, whoever's the best, we'll keep them and fire the other four. Cool. Way to like plug hundreds of people into this sweet pipeline. I mean, you said that. I was like, oh, 45 right out of the school? Great. It's a different, it's a very different industry. If somebody says, okay, I'm going to be, I like the idea of independence. I want to be able to hold my own a little bit or make some smart small choices when it comes to design and UX and support. What's the most like realistic path where I don't want to become a designer. I don't want to become a color expert, but I want to like dig in more deeply. Yeah. What do I do? So there are a lot of good resources. I think things to sort of think about. They're kind of like big buckets of things to kind of think about. So basic design fundamentals. So they help build your eye and your vocabulary around design. So things to think about would be like color, like you talked about today, typography. So being able to communicate with designers around the way we fray essentially. Like, because a lot of design is around having to communicate to somebody without actually speaking to them. So typography allows you to essentially write words and create things that are highly legible, really effectively when you can't be there to speak to someone in person. So what about typography fundamentals? Understand a little bit about the basic layout principles and then also some UX principles and UX foundational pieces. Some resources for those. Don't make me think by Steve Crowe is a good resource. It's very easy to read. It just has some good concepts for my user flow. So how to do some user testing, how to understand how to set up the products that's a little bit more effective for users, more efficient for users. Some basic typography books that again are very easy to read and easy to absorb and digest. Ellen Lupton has a couple of books. The one that is probably the best, I think, to just sort of dive into. It's very focused on typography fundamentals. It's called Thinking with Type. Is it the same author that did the non-designer's design book? She might have. She works at, she's at Micah. So the narrowing that's due to Baltimore. She's written quite a bit about that. She has several sort of design principles books as well. But I think typography and UX are both really good places to get started. I think that typography show is actually a really good call because as we're talking about yesterday when Kachina's talking about patterns and digital acuity and so what you're already as a developer, very comfortable in the world of text, you also, to me, one of the mistakes people make whenever they consider art in any form, UX, or design, whatever, is they imagine like, let me start with this blank page and then come up with something beautiful. And with typography, you naturally start with like, let me start with some words and then we push them around different ways. It is rare that, especially as a novice typographer, that you would start with like, yeah, I said it. And I'm going to next do this soon in the five people. That's a little bit of a word on our history. It was a good one. Thank you. Thanks, Madison. But typography, you rarely go sit down and say like, oh, let me write a typography style then. You're going to start with text probably. And then start like formatting and pushing around, understanding like alignment and hierarchy and all those things. Or I think as an engineer, if you're mostly spending time in a text editor, even like you, there are pretty interesting typography choices you can find in within your text editor. So if you have, if you're working with somebody who's dyslexic, for example, there are specific forms that are easier for people who have dyslexia to understand and parse. Like people with like different cognitive disabilities typography can have a really big impact on them. So again, like if you're thinking about just usability, if you're working with people on a team, there are just big like typography. If you understand it a little bit, you can make better choices to support other people even if what you're doing is not building out like a user-facing product, which is kind of cool. I think there is a downside. Tell me if you can use it right or wrong. Can't. So learning more about design and typography and so forth. Can you notice everything? But then you're sad all the time? Correct. Living in a world starts to become like slightly sad. Or you're just offended by the crimes against typography and like run random to life. That's true. You start making up terms for fonts like Zaphthenom, one of my friends calls it the font of rides and babies. Just be here. Nobody laughed, it's fine. It's fine. Question. Hi, so I'm Zach. And so the company I work for has been in love with gradients as of late. Late, late. I know. So something that as a front end developer I've been trying to think about is like what are some strategies to approach their designs and try to make them more accessible without like coming across them on a tag in their design? Because that seems like some of the ways that they kind of take it when I'm suggesting things like that. Yeah, there's a lot of theme links sometimes. So the question is just like how if somebody's making a design choice specifically gradient based that you find upsetting, emotional, personal level, what do you do? So with gradients I think something to think about is just like contrast ratio. So there are color contrast ratio and contrast ratio checkers. So essentially what that means is like the color of the text versus the color of the background. And is there enough contrast? So is the value different enough between both of those like text in front and color in the back? Is that, is the difference great enough that you can still very clearly read that text? And sometimes what can happen with gradients is because you're going from like either a really light color or a dark color that can sort of mess up that contrast ratio. So running something through a contrast checker to make sure that you can actually very clearly see that. So sometimes that can be just like encouraging people to soften the gradient a little bit or if you can make a viable explanation for why this is not great for users. I think that can back you up a little bit. I think having vocabulary and having some empathy towards the design process and like how they got to that point can be really helpful to give you some ground to stand on when you're having those conversations. Because it is also important to think about when you, by the time you get a design when you are at home or something when you are working as a designer or as a front-end engineer or just an engineer at dinner or when you're building out something that's gone through multiple rounds of revisions, multiple rounds of review, it's gone through clients and like off on. So it's not always just a super straightforward conversation. So being able to have vocabulary to have a straightforward conversation to advocate for your users and not just like, I don't like it, but like, this might be hard for someone to read. That could be really helpful. And then also if you keep bringing those conversations and having those insightful moments with everyone's like, that can also be helpful to be tuned that process earlier so you can speak up earlier in the process and before you just get handed something and you're like, I don't know about this. Depending on what side you're in, I'll be done. To your point with like the research and work that goes into things, sometimes when you encounter the end product, like we have a designer who I love that we've worked with for five years and I know whenever he delivers something that I don't like, there were early times where I said something about it and that was a big mistake. And he let me know that that was a mistake on my part that feedback was not a part of our process. That's. It can't run through your own message. Correct. And what I found is that if I sat with it for a little while, or sat with it a couple of days or sat with it a week, and then I would like warm up to be like, yeah, actually this is great. You know, people have put a lot of time into it. Even when you first needed it, you're not familiar with it. You don't have all the context and understanding. Or asking why. So like if there's a decision and I'm like, it's something that you don't like. If you ask like what were the choices that led us to this, that could be really good to give you some more information and understanding around like why is the way that it is. Because like art is very subjective. Design is when it's done well isn't. Design is about building out something that's functional and usable for somebody who isn't you. So it is. So asking why and understanding how we got to where we are can be really helpful to understand just how to have that conversation and where to angle it from. So you started mentioning the dyslexia friendly fonts and colorblind friendly color schemes. And I get kind of excited about like setting up my environment to be more friendly in that way. And I was wondering if there are any drawbacks or downsides to like particular things that make things friendly for some people that might make things less friendly for other people. Anyway, you can do not have anything like that. So drawbacks for using some of these different like fonts or color schemes. The fonts, so typically fonts that are more, that are designed with people who have dyslexia or deal with dyslexia, they're generally made to the shapes of each letter form is unique to that letter form. So it's not as, it's not as, it's harder for somebody to look at it and might sort of have the letters slip around them or like look wrong to them. So it's easier for them to identify these each individual character a little bit quicker. So it's a, for somebody who doesn't have a cognitive disability like that, that would probably, the difference would most likely just be that you're going to get used to looking at a different type of face. So most text editors are set in a modest space font, so they're just like each letter is consistent and it's facing between each character is really the same. So just making those adjustments. And then typically the color schemes are just, the biggest difference is that they are very high contrast and they try to avoid color pairings that are typically really tricky for people with different types of color blindness. So again, it might just be getting used to this very high contrast color palette that may not necessarily look quite as like pretty as some of the ones that are designed for people that are like fully color-sided. So it might just be making some just little mental adjustments and just getting used to what things look like. But I don't think it's necessarily going to get downside to it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it.