 And I think what Shakespeare said all shades of opinion feed an open mind and I think to expand people's, you know, both thoughts on this subject of population and it's it's, you know, challenges, and also to be able to be able to talk about that and give and to find a voice in talking about it and actually taking action, whether that's, you know, educating their friends and families and the public on, you know, infinite growth and population and consumption and it's destructive effect. Terry Spar is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 media and innovators magazine. Terry is the executive director of Earth Overshoot, a nonprofit dedicated to making nature and its resources central to all personal and public decision making through targeted education and advocacy. Terry is a filmmaker naturalist and environmental activist is an expert on sustainability and the intersection of human consumption and population as the primary drivers of environmental destruction. Terry is the producer of the 2020 documentary 8 billion angels, which establishes the connection between unsustainable population growth and our global environmental emergencies including climate change through compelling stories the film lifts the veil on a critical topic often purposely neglected to the shadows of our personal political and international conversations. Terry is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania College of Arts and Science and the fell center of government. He has had a 25 year career in the insurance investment and real estate industries, and as the former board member of the long foster companies, as well as their philanthropy arm, a sought after speaker. He has presented at numerous conferences forms spoken on the radio podcast and as a contributor to the environmental publications and blogs, all over. Terry, welcome to the show so glad you can make it. Great to be here Mark thanks for having me. I'm glad that you reached out. I was watching in the far of your documentary I have watched it fully and watch the obviously the trailer numerous times but I watched the documentary twice. Thank you for that beautifully made I have to give you kudos and really say, you know, when for documentaries you've you've you've done it in a good way where it's really not only pleasing to the eyes and watch the nature of the scenery the way you do it. But I don't have to immediately have a heart attack or bury my head in the sand that we're just all doomed to gloom that there is some hope of optimism and for for what we need to do and some actionable things down the line. You've been doing this for a long time you're very passionate about science environment you sustainability. How in the hell have you weathered this crazy pandemic black lives matters people of color Asian racism, Brexit, I could go on and on the pandemic the lockdowns the, the injustices and crazy things playing out in our world with with all this with all the things you've been talking about doing your nonprofit. Has that any given you any resilience any, any things to weather the storm and this craziness, how have you been. Well, I would say there's a lot coming at us there always has been it just obviously changed over over generations but you know, I need to update our press release there that you read because it said a 2020 film and we actually as a casualty of COVID we were supposed to do our world premiere and release of it last year this time may have last year and we had to postpone that and we just released the film two weeks ago during Earth Day week so you know you have to I guess be resilient as you said Mark and pivot and adapt and we certainly did that and a lot of the people have done that and many businesses and in their lives. So the documentary with Jim Raketa is called now a graded tomb buried and a bunch of other greats Muhammad Yunus a noble laureate was in that and. And same thing so I kept teasing and said they shouldn't call it now let's call it later or yesterday or or forgotten because it was also supposed to be launched in 2020 matter of fact right before the pandemic they were scheduled to go with documentaries and theaters and everything. And then it just throw us off and so that in and of itself is kind of not just a pivot but that that entire film documentaries not all were prepared to be streaming to be online to find some other models. Were there any learning lessons in that but also what I'm really looking for and I'm kind of leading you in a bit. All this, all these years you've been talking about this there's obviously data and and and a lot of factual stuff behind that but it's also a kind of a for someone who preaches it or talks about it should be a lifestyle. Has any of that helped you with this craziness weathering this or learning about pivots or have you had any resilience because maybe you applied some of those things. You've talked about in your life and then documentary that that helped you weather this pandemic more and then now that you did release on Earth Day are you seeing people saying. Yeah, this is exactly what we needed to get us through this craziness and and now we have a little more understanding and maybe we might have more actions or we might do something to help some of these issues we're facing. I know that you mark or a sort of a big thinking systems thinker, you know, I read your CV the dynamic systems model or with the understanding of science and maths and one of the things that I've observed over my lifetime and I'm, I don't know your age but I'm 55 and what I have seen in my short life is substantial, you know, changes they're slow moving but substantial changes to our, you know, our world and its environment and whether it's the fisheries and we used to go to Maine every every year as a child. And I still go back now, you know, 50 years later and they're just hardly any fish in the ocean we used to catch them abundantly that you know the shorelines are filled with plastics and all kinds of detritus and you know the tides are a lot higher. They just truly are and that's actually in the last decade we've really seen that so, you know, there are these changes and I think what is frustrating and what I saw was that, you know, no one really wanted to discuss, you know, this, you know, this issue that is obviously, you know, relegated as you said in the, in the introduction to the shadows of our discussions politically and internationally and personally and that is that we have too many people consuming too many resources and emitting too many ways we have a human impact crisis, Mark. And then as far as coming out with the film I mean, whether some things that you had a different plan or strategy on how how to release that and operate and get out to the people and then through the pandemic there was some, some pivots or things. What can you tell us about that. Absolutely, we were set for a, you know, in person, North American release and theaters across North America and that was scheduled for May and we had to pull the plug, you know, basically end of March on that whole, you know, beginning of action and sat back and sort of watched the landscape unfold as we all did. And, you know, finally decided that the, you know, I guess it was probably the turn of the turn of the December January the new year here that we felt it was, you know, urgent to get our message out because we didn't want to wait and we just saw that people going back to theaters probably won't even happen till you know this fall even so here we are May and I don't think we're going to still see people really gather, you know, even though we're getting you know decent penetration in this country and some other countries as far as the vaccine so we rolled it out two weeks ago to, you know, I think a tremendous reception which was fantastic. Yeah, I love that that was wonderful so fitting day earth day and from the comments and responses I read following that was very positive. Well received overall. I'm sure I'm sure not everybody was was pleased and that there are some shocking moments or some things where you feel, oh, you know, there, I want to, I don't want to give away the documentary I really want people to go and watch it I want them to figure out. You know what's the most convenient way and watch it but I do want to tease it a little bit and give them a little bit insight but I want to go even more deeper. A little bit almost behind the scenes data wisdom things like that see if they're certain connections so I've been doing this for for a while and matter of fact, it hasn't been released yet but I had probably one of your colleagues or maybe an acquaintance that you might know from the ecological footprint Mattis Wackernagel, he was on the podcast. Just two weeks ago and we had a fairly deep dive and actually went over it went up probably about two and a half hours podcast so we'll have to trim it down. It's based a lot on what he does you know earth overshoot day and today is today the day we're recording this just as for my listeners is Germany overshoot day May 5th Cinco de Mayo welcome. You know, normally a day I celebrate and in some respects because I love that culture and food and and things but not a lot of celebration for for Germany may fifth four months, five days they've already hit overshoot day the day they're on their finite resources for Germany might and we're gonna I'm going to ask you this into it, but WTF what what in the heck where are we at what what's going on here. You know, we're not even halfway into the year and they've already used all their resources. So there's there's some glaring things going on. And my, my question and caveat with Mattias and earth overshoot day. How much of you also have I mentioned your nonprofit you have earth overshoot and how are they involved how is the data how do you get your statistics and and things maybe we can kind of take a peek behind the scenes a little bit on on where the data and calculations. Mathis and I have known each other for a while and, you know, his nonprofit global footprint network does really good work and they, as you said, Mark they assess, you know, bio capacity, which is our you know our the biomass that we have our fish our plants are, you know, renewable resources and our use of them. And, you know, are we able to live within what our country can provide us or are we exceeding that carrying capacity mean we're basically, you know, chewing into the, you know, to the to the reserves that we have. And yes today is actually overshoot day for Germany. And Mathis is global footprint network has some very good assessments for every country they do a lot of, you know, data crunching from UN figures, the FAO, and, and there are some other assessment organizations as well that look at you know bio capacity or ecological carrying capacity but I think they are probably one of the better ones so we like their data we use that we're separate from them, but we're more on the educational side. You know they have their earth overshoot day in which they say here's a day which with this country or the or even the globe, you know, starts to exceed its carrying capacity and starts, you know, using more than just the interest, you know, they're digging into the principle. So yes we we collaborate and I like their work and it's it's an important part of trying to measure, you know, as Mathis probably said measure what we treasure. Exactly. He actually did say that. A lot of this so he's been doing it about 30 years now, religion he started out with his PhD thesis and he he worked a lot with a couple people so Bert Byers and he also worked with William Z. He was a who was his mentor and thesis and thing, and I don't want to talk too much about him but a lot of that the ideas and the thought process behind that direction comes from Herman daily. That comes from Kenneth buildings writings comes from Dana meadows Dennis meadows your grander Steve parents junior the limits to growth, you know, World Model three kind of modeling and systems dynamic modeling where we get some of these, not only the global biocompacity data and there's almost an equation and way to calculate the data. And so I wanted to know, is that kind of also how you do it or how, because in the film as well you are in the documentary you let's just be honest and I said it in your bio is there's not a lot of talk and there's a lot of skirting around population growth you know facing 9 billion 10 billion in the future 2050 where we're going and how that affects an instant sustainable planet a planet that is kind of living beyond its natural resources but I want to. I get the feeling that maybe I missed it but there wasn't a lot of talk about that because kind of more an educational transition to get people to view things and see what where we've kind of gone over like you mentioned the fishing and main and things. But how did how did that journey start I guess how did you get into that and and and tell us a little bit more into that I would like to get get a little bit deeper. I think when you look at the symptoms that are out there mark and you know that again that the work that math is does and other assessment organizations we are seeing basically every planetary system of failing and you know climate change is very real and it's very big and it's in the news every day and rightly so but it is you know just one symptom of multiple symptoms that are afflicting our planet you have the you know the degradation of our soils you know the fertility loss in our soils and the erosion of our soils has been dramatic since World War two since the 50s. You know aquifers and rivers and lakes are being drained globally you know the the deforestation we're losing essentially net forest of about you know the size of Greece every year. And you're seeing the pollution everywhere you know across our lands in our waterways and throughout our airways and we see with the species extinction loss you know billions of animals a year are being exterminated and you know when you look at all these symptoms in their totality they do paint a much larger crisis and that is that there are too many of us you know consuming too many resources and that gets back to this equation that you know the bill reases of the world that you mentioned the math is used in all the colleges and that is that our impact on the planet is a factor of the number of us population times our affluence our affluence is our wealth mark. And that wealth or that affluence is really our income and it's our assets. And you know the challenge we have is that you know all these films and a lot of these environmental organizations are solely focusing on you know our consumption which you know falls under part of that affluence we would produce goods and we consume goods and that's our total wealth. And they're only focusing on that and the challenges it's very, very, very difficult to reduce our affluence, you know, Germany and as a good example with the earth overshoot day today, you know, you know, to get to a, essentially a sustainable Germany. You would have to the country the residents there would have to reduce their affluence their wealth by about two thirds. It's dramatic. I mean, can you imagine changing your lifestyle basically eliminating two thirds of your income and two, two thirds of your wealth. It's, it's practically impossible when you look at it on a global level it's it's it's an enormous challenge. So that's why the film is there to introduce this other part of the equation saying you know we do need to discuss, you know, this issue of a sustainable population but it's very, it's very real and very present and it really is, as you saw in the film malleable you know it's it's it's it's it's influenceable in a way that is, you know, with wonderful, you know, human health results and wonderful social health results and environmental justice results. And, boy, we can really go deep already so I love your response I'm. Thank you. I want to ask kind of another bigger bigger question and, and then go back into a little bit more more data and and wisdoms that have existed out there for a while. There's this big discussion about, you know, not only globalization but global citizenry. Do you feel like you're a global citizen and how would you feel if you lived on a world that was without nations borders divisions of man human beings for one from another. And that is something on the spaceship earth that that we can achieve and reach or what are your thoughts and feelings on that. I think we all have to deal with life as it is not how we might like it to be. And that might be a nice idealistic vision but I think there's just too much self interest and too much culture and too much history that you would ever see. And even, you know, you see, merging of certain regions and it often times ends up in lots of conflict and civil conflict and wars so I don't see that happening. We can certainly, you know, cooperate better and hopefully through education understand our impacts that we are having with each other and you know, the United States and Germany or, you know, two countries that, you know, are highly reliant on, you know, massive imports that are coming from a lot of these developing countries and we're, you know, causing an inflicting a significant amount of environmental damage in these other countries because of our voracious appetite for all the materials and resources and energy that we need to, you know, live, you know, what we consider a good lifestyle. I totally agree. And thanks for answering that I mean, it's a hard and I don't want to buy no means want to put you on the spot I really believe that this commodity global trade companies organizations or have really been global for decades already kind of working even during the pandemic so during the pandemic, unbelievable how you know humanity was kind of stuck in four walls or behind borders and locked down, but food, air, water, soil, species, still, still found its way around and there was a big recoil to more local more regional, but also that big impact was felt on how strong our global ties are to many other areas, you know, and especially with the vaccine production, especially with different things that you know we're we're seeing emerge out and so there's there there's there's that aspect of it but there's this other aspect that I'm kind of this division of humanity one from other doesn't really exist, except for on a national level we've become during this time kind of very nationalistic and what one against each other saying you know well if the Chinese don't do this if Brazil doesn't do this and, and it's kind of dividing ourselves from from each other and we're all kin that's the crazy thing you know we're all distant cousins we're all kin and Carl Sagan really said it nicely said you know there's this consciousness emerging that sees the earth the world as a single organism and an organism as a divided amongst itself or fighting against itself is doomed. And, and that goes back I mean to what the way you answered it is that we're kind of you don't see humanity coming together and being able to do that there were too strong and consume in this, whatever you want to call it capitalism this other form of influence or how how we look at it, but that can also be defined as the human condition. Do you have any thoughts or feelings about this human condition wire wire are we kin and cousins homo sapiens yet we can't align with each other on a common path forward. Is money so powerful as capitalism so powerful as consumerism so powerful. That's a deep question mark and I want to go deep. I think I'm not a psychology major but certainly self interest plays a role I think, you know, if you'd look at what's that what's the pyramid that Maslow's hierarchy needs. Thank you Maslow's hierarchy of needs that you know we all need safety security food shelter clothing the basics of life and or will die and we need 2000 calories a day basically on a consistent basis or will die so and we have a deep desire to procreate that's it's that's certainly an innate thing so I think, you know, self interest is plays a role and that self interest to when organized in societies and civilizations creates as you said sort of a super organism of self interest within a region or country and then you've got the entire super organism of all these varying self interests that you know are basically state run and then you have the individuals within those states that are have self interest so I, you know, I don't know if we'll be able to change that, you know, to much of a degree that would make us all cooperate all the time there've been, you know, you know, you know, I guess murders and deaths and war spot for forever since there was civilization. So it's, I don't, I just hope and pray that we all are educated enough to understand the consequences now especially in a global world with global, you know, armaments that can annihilate a lot of you know our humanity. Back in 2015 I was given a lecture a couple colleges at Oxford and I was after after I was done I was approached by a couple people that some some some statements and support from Jane Goodall and from David Attenborough came out on Population and it's a sensitive subject. It's a it's a people's temper's eyes. I mean it's just, you know, you see a physical change when that when that comes up. And I was really surprised that Jane Goodall came out with a video statement talking about it she has several times. She's in, I believe in the first part of your film is documentary as well. I'm seeing some very interesting things and then David Attenborough as well. Besides the ecological footprint data which is based off bio capacity which is based off of global hectare different sources of data. Is there, is there something else pushing that that discussion or were that where we come up and we want to talk about that or I think that's a great question is what's pushing that discussion and why is this pendulum swinging towards you know having this conversation about unsustainable population growth and I, I think what the challenge has been is that you know the past 40 years. It's been in, it's been in the closet, it's been in the backseat and everything that we've been doing for the past 40 years has hasn't worked and you know every symptom that I mentioned is getting worse at a global level mark. So, you know, do we keep repeating the same thing over and over again and expect to get different results, because that's, you know, the definition of insanity so I think there is a growing recognition that we do need to have an honest conversation about our numbers and the impact they're having. I also think if you really study the, you know, again back to that equation the impact equals the number of us times our affluence. If we study the wealth side of it and the, you know, consumption. It's, it's, and I mentioned it's extremely difficult to reduce our overall consumption I think, you know the coven is a very good sort of example of that challenge you know coven in 2020. We saw, you know the global economy contract by about 5%. You know a substantial financial hit for you know many families, businesses, countries, let alone the health, you know, you know, travesty. So, 5% is was was, you know, a pretty substantial hit. And when we look at, you know, Mathis is in global footprint networks, you know, work that they've done as far as analyzing, you know, our bio capacity. We would need to reduce our total economic activity our total consumption mark by about 50%, in order to live sustainably long term as a global society. And so imagine we'd have to basically have a, you know, a retraction in the economy about 10 times worse than what Kobe delivered to us involuntarily. It's just, it's enormous and it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's just not going to happen. So, you know, that's one of the biggest challenges with reducing our consumption, no one really wants to do it because, you know, when you look at what a sustainable lifestyle looks like Mark and I think you'll find this kind of fascinating again the global footprint networks numbers and other assessments from other organizations. If we were to live equitably, you know, almost a billion of us. That lifestyle would look like essentially each and every one of us living in a small bedroom, maybe 12 by 12 feet with a small bed in one corner and a small kitchen and the other with a tiny little stove and a tiny little refrigerator, and maybe one outlet to plug our cell phone in and switch for a light, and it would have me not having any central air, no central heat, no central hot water, no washer or dryer or or or or you know dishwasher because you only have a couple sets of clothes and a couple pairs of shoes and just a few sets of tableware. And it would be never eating fish or meat, only having a plant based diet and a local one of that and never driving in a car and never flying in an airplane. That is essentially a sustainable lifestyle for us for you know globally if we're going to you know live equitably with all of us and the challenges you've got three and a half billion people including you and me who are living way above that sustainable level. And how do we get these people who are in scores of countries around the globe, coming from all different kinds of cultural background political backgrounds you know economic situations. We get them to simultaneously and voluntarily, you know reduce their material standards of living by 50 to 90%. It's, it's impossible. And the other challenges the four and a half plus billion who are living below that sustainable threshold. And you know the bio essence and the bioethicist in the film brings this up he says, you know, we should give them the space to to grow and to consume more and to and to, you know, live better lives because it's a social justice issue. And you know he's right so you know we've got a real conundrum here where you've got, you know, the wealthy are people who are living above that sustainable threshold, who have no interest or very little interest in trying to reduce their wealth to that level, and the people who are living below that sustainable threshold, you know, want to live better lives and should have the right to do so. So it's it's a real challenge. In the documentary you take us to India, you take us on. Very eye opening I've been to India several times and it's a it is an eye opener but I mean there was times were in all three weeks I didn't see the sun once I felt like I was locked into a smoking chamber in the airport or into some kind of a confined room of smoke stacks just I just, it was horrific, and you don't see people living and functioning but there's a little boat ride that occurs there and we're looking at basically open sewage black water, you know, truly black water. And it's an eye opener, but on a country on a country that is huge population huge numbers and just seems in some respects it can feel hopeless what what the heck are we going to do how how can we fix these problems and why haven't we started sooner. I loved it. And it was an eye opener would drive me to action I hope it wouldn't make others do otherwise and I think the way it was done was very, very honest and and ethically okay it was, it was it was reality but it wasn't like okay just forget it might as well give up today. Which I like, but that there there's some really crazy schools of thought or different schools of thought I guess how we could do Steve Pinker in his book and enlightenment now, as well as Hans Rosling and a couple others to present data and and talk say actually you know we're going to see the numbers kind of level out and take a dip we're not going to go above nine billion and as India comes up as Africa comes up, China comes up. We're going to see kind of bend the curve populations going to kind of level out as as people reach that affluence and have different lifestyles that we hear that that one version or those versions of they're almost predictions you know that's what they're seeing and predicting on how it's going to go. And I hope most of those are done off of dynamic modeling and numerous endless amounts of scenarios to get a high probability that that is highly likely. But then it comes back to this thing is as we look around us whether we're in the developed world, or in an undeveloped world, or country. I don't see the infrastructure getting up to speed I just don't see us providing that global hectare that bio capacity for each individual to live on that footprint that we're lagging behind, but it but in that is my question. I do believe there's a hint of truth that if we could bend that curve and get our infrastructures and efficiency get not just on renewables but how we live differently that that we could actually live on that the earth overshoot is calculated on a global hectare 1.6 global hectares which is replicable and the reason we have earth overshoot, because on a global average were 2.98 something like that, global hectares which is a deficit of one point something global hectares per person. And so the reason I bring that up is that's almost not business as usual but that's a high carbon scenario that's us consuming unbelievable ways because we're actually consuming more than we have. We're not living in planetary boundaries, but what if we had a better operating system what if we had a society that says we'll never let humanity get below poverty and hunger and suffering. We set the bar higher, we build better infrastructures and we think not just replicable hectares of what's available, what we have with our carrying capacity of humanity and the growth of humanity which that would fluctuate daily, but what if we started to update our infrastructures and provide everybody with the basic needs and provided in a way that is see steadying going vertical being more efficient with passive homes and renewable energy and solid infrastructures, even with that, do you think we could bend that curve and like Hans Rosling said, you know, kind of that that it's going to be a different scenario or are you set in firm that you just don't have hope in us I can give us some what looks into your mind and those involved in the documentary and tell us a little bit more how you present it why you feel we're going this other way and I promise we're going to get out of this kind of the deep end and the more solutions that you present more towards the later half of the documentary and and how there is some hope and what we can do and it's not you know what some people might be thinking but I don't want to spoil it too much I want you to tell us about that. I'm fine with you sort of, you know, talking about the film I think what we helped to try and see, you know, our help the viewers understand is that addressing the population issue is not something we should fear and you know it's deeply moral it's deeply fundamental to what I would say is gross smaller gracefully and you know when you and it's interesting you mentioned India, you know, here's a country with I think it's like 1.3 billion people now, and the politician in the film there who was one of the, you know, most well-known politicians in India speaks he says, you know, the challenges that we're seeing with as you said the polluted river and the polluted airs are, you know, incredibly difficult, they're intractable is the word he used because they come from so many various sources and so many people putting pressure on the environment for just basic living. He said imagine if Mark, if we, you know, we're just to get everybody electricity to improve their lives by providing electricity to the 200 million plus Indians who do not have access to electricity. He said that's going to create even more pollution and more, you know, damage to the environment. And that's the conundrum is you've got, you know, the more that we improve people's lives, the more damage we cause to the environment. But we need to do that. So how can we do that we can certainly try our best as you said to, to, to, to, you know, not be as polluted. And what we find is oftentimes it gets shifted it gets shifted to other countries so the United States has done a good job of cleaning up its environment. But as a result, we lost a lot of that manufacturing here because it became expensive to manage that. And we pushed it offshore to other countries that didn't have those environmental protections. So it gets shifted. And that's a that's a that's a challenge that needs to be addressed and it's not an easy thing to deal with because we're not one global society. So I guess that's a sort of a, you know, my thinking is in my thoughts are that I hope we can flatten the curve when it comes to our population growth we're adding about 80 million people a year. And, you know, they all need they need clean water they need, you know, food they need shelter they need clothing and those resources. They do cause an impact on the environment. Any, any, any organism no matter how benign, you know, impacts the environment around it. And so we have to recognize that the sooner that we can flatten that curve and start to, you know, gradually reduce our the better we're the better we'll be off and what's interesting is in India again, you look at how that has happened there and they're continuing to grow up, you know, they have I think if they're replaced they're not a replacement yet but they're about 2.4 children per women per woman and there is a part in the film where we're down in South America if you recall that's the state the southern state of India. And what's fascinating is when you know that that that that state for the last 200 years is educated girls and boys and not just you know young man but women, and they have really made a priority to empower women to educate them in good access to reproductive healthcare and you know their fertility rate down there is about 1.7 because when women are educated, you know, they tend to be in the workforce they tend to be certainly improve their health improve their living conditions. They have fewer children they space them more and their families and their lives are far, far better and the environment actually begins to restore itself because there are fewer people putting that pressure on the environment for their basic needs. I absolutely love that part of the documentary. I say often that actually two of the biggest ways to draw down as Paul Hawkin as well said in his book draw down is really to empower women and girls and it's not just education it's their basic needs it's their lifestyle that they're not married off at an early age that they get that education that they get those jobs and positions and that equality. So there's numerous different aspects of how that just flattens the curve but also is a game changer for not only population growth but better stewardship over families better stewardship over our planet and how there's much different and I love that that was you know one of the most wonderful parts of the documentary and the whole thing was wonderful. Don't get me wrong. I just want to kind of go a little bit deeper because I just don't watch to watch as entertainment I watch to kind of educate as you're you're an educator and you're the people you want to kind of present them with something that might not have heard before but also might be taboo or not a subject that's easily approached and how do you do that and you do it in such an eloquent way you do it in the right way where it's not difficult. Some of the numbers are really hard for humanity to fathom we don't understand the exponential function we don't understand these large billions is just a hard for us to fathom. But the way you mentioned how many people how we're growing every year to break that down to have an infrastructure and this is why I broach the subject of infrastructure if we had some drastic if we stop the high carbon scenario or business as usual if we had infrastructure that provide the basic needs and the necessity of everybody. I think that that would also help bend the curve. But what what does that mean well the the number you mentioned what it means is we'd roughly need to build about 60,000 schools every single week. Just to keep up with that growth. One, we're far behind that. And two, we're not doing that every week to keep up with educating and growing just humanity it doesn't matter women or girls it's just period to educate everybody in the future and so we're already building building into the system. Poverty, hunger, no education, you know not just the Paris agreement not just what's talked about an IPCC. Not just the basic needs of humanity we're just not doing it so that leads me to my next question and I, if you don't want to broach it we don't have to, but we're currently operating under a civilization framework a global civilization framework and there might be a few pockets of these civilization frameworks around the world that are there. But humanity is becoming at disease a little bit unrestful with our conditions around the world with what's going on not just the pandemic but with Brexit with the Amazon burning and bolts and arrow with Putin Shay Duarte Erdogan whoever the people are dissatisfied they're not they're at ease and what happens is is is not clear with this big history kind of a picture is we've had more than 20 civilization frameworks that don't exist anymore and all but two of those 20 early years, Aztecs Maya's early Mesopotamia, Greeks, Romans, ancient China, ancient Greece on and on 20, all but two don't exist because of ecological or environmental collapse and they were pretty advanced civilizations and no they didn't have computers and satellites and go to the moon but they were doing pretty good I would say, why did they collapse and why would we feel that we won't collapse and there's do you see an emergence of a new civilization framework something that will carry us beyond 2050 something that will work for all humanity do you feel that disease as well and is that why another reason for the documentary or does that tie into anything what what why you did the documentary and maybe share your feelings with us on that. I think the challenges and I don't know if it's hubris with human are the way we think and the way we live but we're no different than other species more and as you said, you know, 20 plus civilizations in the past have suffered from, you know, collapses, primarily because of environmental issues, whether it's a lot of it with soil loss or desertification or other water issues as far as scarcity but I mean, you know, can we for stall or prevent a similar collapse now at a global level, because we have essentially exploded to every corner of the globe and just the past 150 200 years, we're from you know going from a billion people and 100 to 8 billion now and yes we can because of fossil energy deliver food and water everywhere and we can deter practically every disease before it wipes us out, you know, covid's going to obviously impact us, you know, our mortality numbers but not to the degree that that's going to really do much, you know, long term. But we've done that with all these other diseases to just because of the technologies that we've been able to create so, you know, do we have the wisdom we certainly are clever species but do we have the wisdom to see this and recognize this and see that, you know, we are living far and excess of what the earth can provide us and at some point there are going to be significant constraints and as a result conflict and I hope we have that foresight I hope we have that wisdom I'm, you know, very concerned because it is a massive macro issue I've read and studied and seen, you know, estimates for the future and, you know, in just by 2040 mark we're expected to have another, you know, billion plus people on top of what we have now and those billion people consume annually 3 billion farm animals and they're going to need a heck of a lot more land which means we're going to have to, you know, we're going to denude a lot more forest to feed those, you know, animals as far as pastures and crops for them. We're expected to have and this is from BP energy 30% more energy consumption and they anticipate that half of that, it will still come from fossil energy. So, you know, we've got these enormous complex systems out there that exist and we, you know, and everything that I've read and studied and seen where we're heading even if we can, you know, reduce our fossil fuel use that that doesn't mean we're reducing our material use and, as you said, we need 60,000 more schools, just for the next couple weeks or I don't know the number of every week it's every week. I mean, just to fathom that, you know. And then, you know, the numbers I've seen is about 90 billion tons of minerals and metals and materials and energy, fossil energy and biomass that, you know, we consume as a global society annually 90 billion tons. You know, in 2060 the OECD, and I think it was the global status report, expected that to double as far as the amount of materials that we will be extracting from the earth which will place even more enormous pressure on the environment so that we can recognize and be able to see in the future and that's, you know, we are a species that has that ability to think abstractly. You know, will we do it and we have the wisdom and the ability to talk honestly as we're doing you and I about these, you know, big issues that also have a lot of sensitivity around them, you know, reproductive autonomy, politics, religion, you know, go forth and multiply and that might have been good back in, you know, the thousand years ago or 2000 years ago but it's a different world now and it's, we have to be able to species a global society to talk about this and do it in a way that's, you know, ethical and honest. I'm glad that I can have an ethical and honest and deep discussion about something so hard with you and you don't take an offense to my questioning. It's none of it's ever a personal attack. It's just, I want to get all angles of the story. I want to get all sides and understand it as best as possible. So I'd love to remove bias I'd love to get into sense making just so that we can kind of take a step back for a second and have that overview effect that cosmic perspective to understand are we getting the big history are we getting understanding it. So have we understood collective intelligence or there's some chunks that we don't know about her that we haven't read or haven't seen or are not educated in. I mean obviously education is a big issue regardless so that we're way behind on that. A lot of people aren't getting that a lot of people don't have access to the podcast and the books that that we do are the data. And so we're in a we're definitely in a conundrum of where we need to move forward and we have this thing that's real. It's kind of. It's really funny so I Kate row worth, who does the donor economics, she surmised it very nicely it's this weird societies, you know it's where Western educated industrialized rich and democratic. It's here in these weird societies, where most of the economic research is done, and thereby they're very biased and they're also done by a lot of white male economists there's not too many, you know, that's that's the stereo typical, you know, economists these the white males and that's not typical to a good diverse depiction of our global of our world of all those people that we're discussing here now and we need to get some more of this equality. So, I think we want to go just a little bit deeper if that's okay. What would you say is the most important thing when somebody watches this documentary that and I believe you've done it very nicely that you want to convey to them what what your, your hope to achieve is the documentary. And are you already seeing from Earth Day are you already seen that results starting to resonate with people. I think you and I and others who are hope to be influencers I find that, and you know this as well that emotion moves people it's not statistics and you know when you look at our film, we didn't have any grass in the narration it was purely people living and telling their stories, you know, some were scientists but a lot of them were everyday people who were in India or out there, the farmers in the Midwest and where the, the oyster farmer up the main and the struggles that they're seeing and trying to live their lives. And so, I think emotion is important and try and connect with people emotionally and I think that was the goal of the film was to help people expand as you said, you know, to, to, Shakespeare said all shades of opinion feed an open mind. And I think to expand people's, you know, both thoughts on this subject of population and it's, it's, you know, challenges, and also to be able to be able to talk about that and to find a voice in talking about it and actually taking action whether that's, you know, educating their friends and families and the public on, you know, infinite growth and population and consumption and it's destructive effects. You know, it's, it's, you know, I think it's important for us all to be able to be able to, you know, bring this to the forefront of our conversations and then address it because the sooner that we can, you know, reduce that curve I think there'll be enormous, you know, justice for not only for, you know, humanity but for the natural world. And the farmer in the Midwest that you mentioned, I think that's a perfect way you said but I just brought up a thought of, you know, I watched the documentary twice and, and there's just really unique point and that's what I liked about it it's very, there's not a lot of this and it's just showing all sides a good bad the ugly and you know that this Midwestern farmer kind of says, you know, I don't I can't remember if he says devil or evil he says I guess I'm the devil or I'm evil on the evil one the bad guy. And but there wasn't a set. It was up to us to decide based on the story and the journey we followed him on what he honestly told us and businesses usual or his operations is very honest and nice guy. You know that. Yeah, good soul I mean and the story and a long history of farming in his family and how he got in very open honest. All cards on the table so to say, and then he basically gave us he says you decide. He says I kind of have this feeling, but you decide and I just, I love that because there's always two sides to the coin there's also multiple stories cultures and ways to view and and sometimes the civilization frameworks going back to what we discussed a few minutes ago. And to set us up on the wrong path of have not given us a lot of choice. We're kind of stuck in that hamster wheel for in certain certain aspects you know, we can only do so much and so I believe there are some tools I believe there's through education and empowerment we can really change that and you bring that on towards the end in a nice way. I guess I'm at a different level so I would even like more because I want to I really want to have an impact. I like I'm going to go down kicking screaming fighting I want to I want to you know, try to make things as good as possible. I think you mentioned the farmer and you know he said he looked at the director and he said am I good or am I evil, and he was using what he said as a limited resource which was the aquifer water for the farming. And he's using it up faster than what is being replenished and so he said, you know, you know, should I be leaving it for future generations and you know it's interesting that he recognizes that, but you know, we all, we all do that in our daily lies from, you know, the materials and resources that you know it's just finished a really good book called blip like Chris Clugston. And have you heard of that mark. I have yeah. Yeah, and it's really about all the non renewable natural resources that we have and how we've essentially, you know, you know, denuded the lands and now we're really struggling to find these resources, especially in Europe a little bit in America, and less so in China and less so in Russia. But, you know, these are the big the big countries but they are limits, and there are limits to growth as you were saying the beginning of the podcast or the radio show. Sure is. I hope that we can model those resources as a global society, at least from a country level and, you know, prepare for, you know, their eventuality when they will run low and be able to pivot and also be able to set. I would say, you know, the right expectations with society to so that, you know, when we transition through overshoot, you know, we maintain our happiness we, we, you know, find the good and others and we go through that process, you know, gracefully because it's not easy to, you know, when what happens when we have less energy, it's kind of, you know, be difficult to adjust. And that that will eventually happen, you know, the oil and the gas and the coal that's in the ground is not limitless and the studies that I've researched and read says that the second half of this century. There may be some significant implications on our energy reserves and being able to serve, you know, society. So drastically impact us. Absolutely so the world economic form is coming forward right now and are since the pandemic and really they're in this modus the great reset that's the verbiage and that they're using that we need a great reset. This is a question Kate real worth earlier donut economics, Johan Rockstrom professor Johan Rockstrom that's a planetary boundaries he just came out with a new white paper. It's very interesting on our natural capital and natural resources. There's the green new deal. Obviously I'm bias I believe strongly in the Paris agreement even before that in the sustainable development goals as our 2030, not just agenda I believe it's the, the world's first global moon shot 197 countries for the first time ever decided on a plan of action and a map of how to get to better futures with monies back casting foresight targets indicators, and I really, I don't see any other global kind of plan to improve poverty and gender equality and powering women and girls, etc. I've been out there ever, and it's hardly even recognized how nobody's speaking about it nobody's really kind of, it's, you know, it's just a blip out there, but that leads to my question. What's the plan, do you believe that there's a plan that there's like the new green deal donut economics planetary boundaries to SG is there some kind of a reset or rescue plan a roadmap to the future that can maybe bend the curve flatten the curve get us to a better future. I guess I would just pose this to your viewers mark and you know there've been 34 international, you know climate conferences over the last 40 years. And if you and I and everyone else looks at, you know, the increasing co2 emissions every year and the accumulation from parts per million they keep going up and up and up and up. So, again, do we continue to, you know, have these, you know, conclaves and conferences and, you know, can we get together and do something I think it's a significant challenge I look at what happened in France a year or so ago when they imposed an additional carbon tax and you had the basically the citizens revolt because of the additional costs so I think it's going to be a real challenge to, and we need to do it because we do need to get off carbon, both for climate change but also for the fact that we're not going to have much in the ground maybe in 40 or 50 years so we do have to find alternative energy. And I think that's even more of a concern than, or as much of a concern than climate change, as far as our energy use. So, will we make those changes, it hasn't happened yet, and I think we'll still see those numbers March as far as what those estimates were that I showed you from, or to share with you from BP and population growth and the impact that's going to have on more energy need and more environmental damage. So, I think we have to have this conversation and it has to be on an international level that we all have to really look at do we need to have endless growth of population. It's to me it's it's it's a far healthier there are a lot of countries mark that are actually reducing their populations and they're doing it all voluntarily all ethically, all in a human rights context and they're seeing enormous, enormous improvements and the growth and welfare of their citizens and the environments beginning to restore I mean you look at Bulgaria, Lithuania, Croatia, Japan. These are all countries that are in this process. And some of it's not even there, they're doing it's just happening, you know, just because of, you know, people's choices. Can you tell us a little bit more about some of the positive stories you're seeing some of the countries that that we need to be aware of that that are doing this it's nothing new it's been going on for a while kind of give us some more hope and some optimism how we should see this discussion and and and how we can do it where I think some people when they even get in the discussion not not only religiously cult culturally, but it's just, it seems like such a hard thing and in your documentary you don't make it a hard thing at all you make it something that's a no brainer kind of like okay yeah alright this is, it's not that bad I thought it was a lot worse. But there are a lot of headwinds and you know in the documentary that one gentleman from Population Media Center talks about, you know, the economics and the politics and that, you know, there's this narrative out there that says, you know, we must have more people because that means more growth and a better society for all but as you said, you know, look at the infrastructure needs and the healthcare needs and the education needs of this growing populace it's an enormous strain on society and the infrastructure and the transportation needs it's an enormous impact on society and and also the environment so, you know, I think it's a it's a, you have we have to shift that narrative and I think economists have to start to look at, you know, is it all about growth and exploitation of the resources and go down with the ship or how can we balance what we have in nature and live within you know what nature can provide us and then that's that's that's a shift that has to happen at a at a certainly at a granular level mark, meaning we all have to feel that and then we all have to voice that and then I think politicians will react and the global react to the global society will react as well. But we are the ones that have to understand that and that's what I've thought about what you're doing and others as far as trying to help move that move that you know move the needle there. I like the way you answered to kind of said you know none none of the plans out there none that nothing that we're describing is really as working because look at history look at look at how we've done it in the 35 times before how we've done it in all the years where are we going and, and you know we're breathing the same air and drinking the same water that Gandhi did that Caesar did you know whoever the famous person you want to say, and reminds me of Gandhi and he did amazing things colonialism and a lot based around food and, and, and at the end we couldn't come together those religious those cultural couldn't come together and, and yeah they overcame colonialism but then they're just right back into the same bad situation and we're not learning from our lessons we're kind of repeating the same mistakes Einstein's problems theory that you mentioned earlier they know we have to look at our problems differently than when we created them and that's how we'll come up with those solutions. I really like how the whole documentary moves us in that right right area and there are a few other documentaries I told you about mine but there's that they're kind of emerging out there and other ones end game 50 with Moby and I forget the doctor's name she's also wonderful from Guadalajara Mexico and that's a wonderful thing. The reason I bring up these documentaries and so I believe on the educational journey on this journey to envisioning a different future envisioning some tools tips and tricks of how we get there. My big question or pet peeve or thing that I kind of want to work and I want to discuss this with you not only because you're a producer and educator and you've created this wonderful documentary is if I go to the movie theater if I go to Netflix or Amazon Prime or whatever. Even before the pandemic and I want to I want to see a vision of what that sustainable future that resilient future looks like what 2030 will look like what 2050 will look like. This is my French Jesus it's pretty it's pretty scary because everything I see out there is very dystopian we're fighting over some resource or fighting each other. That's Mad Max it's total recall what you know whatever it's it's pretty dystopian I can't think of too many beautiful depictions of those times in the future and how we're how that feels like a vision of what it feels like and how we're going to get there. You dated yourself I'm also in the same area as you are we're both up there an agent when I was younger. There was Star Trek and these these they were sci fi, but they were, you know, a non smoking future was a future with no not money as an economic model there was a different economic model there was transporters and food generators and and it was and a lot of those things we kind of came up with and gender diversity and interracial marriages all sorts of things relationships that we learned from that and and because of those visions I would say because of those visions. You're able to engineer architect create and designed say I like what I saw on Star Trek I want to create that for the I would really like a tricorder or a cell phone smartphone whatever 3D printer and I'm bound and determined let's make that happen. I don't have any media besides maybe a TED talk and dystopian black mirror and and no real visuals media of showing me how in the hell can I get to that future, how can I engineer create architect design get to that future. And when when it comes it comes in the form of what we see these documentaries, and they're one and two often they're competing against all sorts of stuff that's really feeding our amygdala wouldn't it. How would you feel if we had a few TV series that really showed us a sustainable future what it looks like to live in a future of 100% renewable energy no fossil fuels 100% no poverty no hunger what how would it feel if we had series that showed every day interaction life and maybe even if it was movie magic that we could kind of feel what that would feel like to be there so I want to get your take and you're feeling because you have a heck of a lot more experience in this area than I do. Why can't we do that. Yeah, I think what if I understand you what you're trying to describe as hope. And I think, and that's, there are a lot of people, a lot of ecologists that I and scientists that I, you know, communicate with online through these lists serves mark and, you know, there is, you know, very very guarded optimism. Just because they're concerned with the human condition is we're not wise enough or clever but we're not wise enough to, you know, look into the future, as you're saying like star like Star Trek and all these other future scenarios and to be able to say well if we want to see this future in this path. Here are the uncomfortable things that we have to do now. And no one really wants to, you know, delay gratification, they want immediate gratification they want, you know, the stuff that we have, and they're not willing to give up that stuff so I think it's going to be very very challenging, and I just hope that we can do it in a way that is graceful you know I need to work on these numbers mark but from what I can read and understand is that, you know, if we were able to get the global fertility right now which is about 2.45 children per woman. If we were able to get that down to, you know, one child or 1.5, you know, within a fairly short time meaning a few generations by the end of the century. We could be down to a population that may be sustainable based on our current lifestyles. So, you know, it is doable. It's just, it's like the Titanic, it just, it takes an enormous amount of time and energy to make that shift at a global level. And, you know, everything that you and I do can cascade so you know what you're doing is wonderful and what we're trying to do I hope is wonderful and you know, the more people that, you know, I think that biathesis says it's in the film that the more people who are talking to me and often enough about whatever it is, you can then begin to see changes. So, I hope that we'll see more changes that will put us towards that sustainable future at that requires sacrifice. It requires recognizing that, you know, we have a certain carrying capacity here on the planet and we have to make sacrifices to live within that carrying capacity it's not something that we're going to want to do but we need to do. I love how you say it's hope because it really is in many respects and I don't mind using movie magic to not just give us that whole but to show us what that future would look like does it look something like from our childhood or how nature used to look back in the 70s. What does it look and feel like, and, and, and, you know, do people not smoke there is there no more fossil fuses electric vehicles whatever it is, but just even show us that on a steady basis on a series all different languages so that we can even envision, really show us how to get there. It's okay for it to be movie magic, but then I would think wouldn't we want to say boy that right now what I'm seeing on other channels other media or whatever is. It's not really what I want and so it scares me and put my head in the sand the number of the data the charts the statistics. It's overwhelming so I feel overloaded I just inspired and depressed I don't even want to watch it. But if I saw something different and it wasn't the human interactions were maybe a little bit more improved that human condition was different. One of hope I mean, the is the human condition is that hope is that, or is it really. I mean you kind of surmised that a little bit when you when you touched on that I, why can't we. Why are we so divided why can't we even movie magic have that and then say, we're going to figure out a way a path or engineers and vendors social entrepreneurs filmmakers like us okay now we're doing these project. Anyway, I know we can't solve these problems but I, I would just love that our documentaries are visions of the future. We're, we're shown to give people some some of that hope some of that vision, so that they can they're created humanity is so creative that they can engineer and invent and create those I know we can achieve it. I don't know how but I know we can. But yeah so I don't know if you have anything else say that I just think you're right I think you're right people want a vision of a future that's cheery that's hopeful and that doesn't require sacrifice. I think that we do need to be told the truth and that there may be sacrifice that needs to be done, and I just hope that we can, you know, be, you know, you know, go through that in a way that we look at the positives in it, and find the happiness where it exists, and continue with as you said a resilient, you know, outlook on life and, and, you know, there wasn't, you know, the folks who live before fossil energy, you know, living in, and in the hunter gather societies, they lived good lives they didn't have all the health care that we might have today and some of the other doodads and knickknacks and contraptions but you know they lived happy lives. And so we don't need a lot, but we have a lot and I don't know if we're going to be able to, you know, willing the mean ourselves from that but you know as it happens to us because nature won't be able to provide it hopefully we can recognize that and go through that process with, you know, a good heart and, you know, hope and, you know, a positive outlook. I have four last questions for you. The next one is the hardest question that I will give you today. It's the burning question WTF, and it's not the swear word although maybe you've been saying that as well. It's what's the futures. What's the futures where are we going what's your vision what's your hope. What if you were to give us a little vision of what your futures are what are they share them with us. I have no idea what the future, you know, will will unfold and how it will unfold. I, you know, certainly want to live a life that's closer to the earth that you know I live in the suburbs of a city and looking to move in the next year or two to a more of a rural region and to be closer to nature and to do more, you know, work with the land and be less reliant on, you know, outside systems and, you know, I hope people do that I hope they get back to the earth and I hope they, you know, see the value in nature and it's hard in the city environment for people to see the value in nature they just haven't been around it and many people are born, and that's a paradigm problem or you know it's like you and I remember when there was a lot more greenery in nature around us and abundance of biodiversity and but if you're born today, you really this is your paradigm that you know and so it's it's a different way of looking at it and I hope we can educate the youth today to see that you know there's a balance there with our planet and an important one that we need to work with. If there was one message you could depart to our listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life, what would it be your message. I would say having a small family is probably the most, it is the most profound action by far that an individual can undertake toward fixing the, you know, climate healing the environment and improving both their lives and the animal world. What should young producers, directors, innovators, sustainable activists, environmentalists in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make a real impact. Certainly connect emotionally with the viewers and, you know, just approach everything with passion and dedication and determination I think you know persistence and determination are omnipotent. It's a critical feature and they're going to be a lot of people who will, as you know Mark will have a target on your back, and you just have to know that what you're doing is right and with the deepest ethics and the deepest belief and doing the right thing by others. And the last question is really what have you experienced or learned in your journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start. So I came to the film, Mark with the deep concern for the natural world. And what unfolded to me through this process of making the film was the enormous impact that unsustainable population growth has had on human health. It's all with India and the number of people who are dying annually for just from, you know, the polluted air or the polluted water that they drink to the, you know, human health costs that come from high housing costs like look at California and people having to commute prices but when they're, you know, paying enormous amounts for rent or purchase prices that they're sacrificing maybe with their health care or they're sacrificing with the nutrition. Or if you look at what's happening with CO2 emissions into the atmosphere and you know that that descends on our crops and it actually changes the nutritional value of many crops and or it can impact us and in other ways from health wise so I never really saw and understood the human health toll that you know population growth has but it's enormous and it was a, it was revelatory to me, and the solutions were revelatory as well which were wonderful and as you say with like Paul Hawkins book, you know, it was I think it was a revelatory to him where you had the number six and number seven of the top 10 strategies to fix climate change we're educating girls and you know providing universal access to modern day contraception and those two when combined were the number one solution so I guess that's, that's my thought. That's a good thought and thank you for sharing that for those are all the questions I have for you today and I've just surely so thankful for your honesty and openness and that we could get into some depth and and have a nice exchange is there anything before I say goodbye that you would like to depart or say that we didn't get a cover or that we kind of skipped over or missed that that we need to know or did we did we get a pretty good ground today. It was great and I really appreciate your your interest in and you know exploring these deep issues and systemic issues and I would say if there are viewers out there are interested they can certainly learn more about the film at the you know our website which is 8 billion that's the number 8 billion angels.org. And, or they can also go to our nonprofit, which is earth overshoot.org, and at both those areas that can certainly learn more about you know what we've discussed today for the last hour. So we'll put all the links and all that into the show description notes and links and things and give that to Terry thank you for letting us inside of your ideas it's been a sheer pleasure and I wish you a most wonderful day on. May 5 earth overshoot day for for Germany. Thank you very much Mark it's been a pleasure.