 We worked on the Peter Pan live doing rewrites on the Peter Pan for NBC And she created new lyrics for on the 20th century, which is currently running on Broadway. Did I leave anything out probably many things? Yes, Amanda Green Steven Schwartz you've all heard many times in the last today even earlier and you will hear more about him tonight I will just list off a few things Pippin Godspell Bernstein's Mask the magic show Baker's wife Personals Captain Louie children of Eden Pocahontas hunchback of Notre Dame wicked Enchanted snapshots and seance on a what-afternoon Steven Schwartz and Winnie Holtzman has made you probably know her because she created my so-called life on TV She also worked on with Steven on wicked and she wrote a musical called birds of paradise She wrote episodes of 30 something and the TV show called it huge and can we talk about what's in development right now? There's a show a show with Cameron Crowe on showtime, but it isn't really yet So we don't it isn't really yet, but she's developing something for showtime So it's a pretty impressive panel, and I'm really happy to welcome them here today I'm also excited because we have we're covering TV writing theater writing lyricists composers book writers We've got all that covered so there will be room for your questions But I think the way the the topic of the conversation is how we create character in story and song And I think we can cover a lot of the bases there But I just want to start right out the gate right out of the gate with what kind of conversations Do you have with your collaborators at the very beginning of the process about who tells what about who how the character is created? What are those early conversations like we're looking at you? Oh, you are I? Just assumed Steven would take that one Because he's done it the most of it of anybody and I guess my answer to that would be from my experience It's not about who takes what in the beginning It's about what is this in the beginning and just a really long conversations Conversations plural about What is it? What is the story which becomes for me the question that never goes away? It's just like what is the story? Sometimes that question is slash. What is a story, you know trying to remember of course We all really know what stories are because we're fed on them and we have them in our bones and our blood And we really understand them But when you start to intellectual eyes and look at something you're writing that you've never written before You start to blank out at least this is what happens to me and you start to go I don't even know what a story is And so you have to almost like my friend Bruce Kaplan says like a stroke victim You have to almost like sort of piece together very slowly Like sort of make your way through this thing that you don't understand and when you're writing a musical My experience is you're so lucky because you're doing it with with with somebody else or other people So you have these conversations Yeah, I mean when we were working on wicked when we first started we spent I would say at least a year Outlining the show before we really wrote anything Really talking through the story talking through the characters I Did a couple of tiny little musical sketches for myself, but didn't really write any Songs just kind of came up with sounds that might be appropriate for the individual characters Winnie I know you did a couple of little sketches as well But we really did spend a year before we wrote and then when we started I'm finally getting to answer the question Winnie got Glinda right away She just knew who she was how she sounded and I was kind of hazy on her so I was able to sort of see what Winnie was writing about Glinda and and and And Interpolate that or get that or internalize it on the other hand I think I got alphabet right away and so kind of the early stuff that I was Coming up for her even though actually the first song that I wrote for her as you'll hear tonight Was was eventually abandoned and replaced Nevertheless, I sort of got her sound and her character and I think that influenced how you wrote her the point being that It's collaborative and it and and sort of the the person who has the clearest vision First assuming that the vision feels right to both of you Defines it. I want Amanda an answer to you But before you leave that before we leave that point Steven when you said in the year that you were outlining You were coming up with ideas were they Character sketch music music the reflected character music. They reflect a story. Yeah, this is I'm this is something I was hoping we would talk about in in more detail today Which is how you use music to define character because I think we don't really talk about that very often that that We're always talking about the dialogue and the lyrics But actually music also defines character and what I was trying to do And I'll talk about where I first became aware of that Strongly which had to do with when I worked on the show working and was observing what my co-writers were doing and kind of learning from them but for instance One of the very very first things that I wrote when I went back and looked at these little sketches I had done was just I think the witch Sounds like this I think Elphaba sounds like this when she's powerful and it was actually the Tom Tom Tom bomb that little riff that became the riff into defying gravity was there almost from the very beginning I had no idea where it was gonna go on the show if it was gonna go in the show. It just felt like her to me so yeah, it was it was kind of How do these characters sound? What's what is their? Musical language, etc. And a lot and you know and I've just cited the the two bars That wound up in the show But there are a couple of pages of stuff that that never went in that Just didn't ultimately feel right. It helped you find your way. It helped me find my way. Yeah, and Amanda I'm just listening to what these guys were saying. I think Stephen is right. I mean if you if you You know me or the composer has found a Musical sketch for a character that means you have a pretty good beat on the character, you know because it's it's a musical You know, so it is I mean lyrically of course you know, I'm you know If I find like a phrase that is that person's emblematic phrase or the way they speak or something Then I have a beat on the character But if there's a musical voice for them then that's gold really because it's it's a musical So, you know, I mean I really it feels like you've crystallized the character And if you both agree on you all agree on that vision, but it's you know, Winnie and I were saying when we were kind of preparing for this panel um five minutes ago And talking about the well you're you know, you're so diligent And we were talking about again how you create character in that We realized that the music for Elphaba could not be sung by Glenda Glenda Couldn't would never sing something putting aside lyrics titles whatever she would never sing something that was like It's not in her character similarly Elphaba could never sing something that have the music for popular Regardless what the title was now I didn't find that music until Winnie had written some scenes with Glenda And then I sort of got oh, that's who she is. Well, she kind of sounds like this But I feel that the music itself Defines those those women and they they're not interchangeable Well that leads me to my next question how nice of you to set that up for me Tell me about what happens when a collaborator creates a piece of the character that is new information to you Like you thought you're writing something and then your collaborator contributes a piece and you go Oh, either it's something that comes out in a lyric or or a musical gesture or something And then you as the person who had the first past things. Oh, I that's new to me or now I can run with that Well, I mean excuse me for you know, I know other but but I can quickly answer something again, you know I'm talking about wicked just because when he is sitting here with me I had no idea that they were that there was going there were going to be us isms that they're going to be made up words That are kind of English, but kind of not and then I read the first scenes that that when he had written and That's how people were speaking. So things that I had already written I went back and inserted a changed words, etc To to interpolate that style into the way the people in our spoke Yeah, I've worked I've been working with like Doug Wright on Hanson a hard body often scenes that he did informed Me about characters and conversations we had would inform a lyric You know like in the this song I wrote I'm gone we were talking you know we knew this this young woman worked at the UPS and He says something like well just imagine like every she's there all night sorting things and things come to her and she looks like They're they're heading to Europe, you know, they have all these labels on it and that like gave me a huge inspiration When I was working with Tom Kitt on bring it on we had to write a new song for this character We'd written a song we loved and it just wasn't but it wasn't working and I was like I love that song I don't know what to do. That's like it's funny as I get I don't I don't know Like I was like it's funny. I don't get it I kept trying to rewrite it like what if I change it this or can we save this and use that and I was just stuck and then he had like a musical idea and It was a new character. It was like this whole side of her character before it was sort of like she was this evil scheming You know duplicitous backstabbing little cheerleader and then he the music he came and everything was a variation on that And then the music he came up with was this bouncy bubbly Evil little girl, but she was so cute, you know and that made that like opened it up for me To to like, you know, I could let go of what I had written and write something funny for this different Facet a different way of looking at the same character. She was still a backstabbing horrible little girl But it was a delightful little song about oh, she was just so happy to be horrible. So yeah, that was the music really helped I was just Yesterday I was listening to this, you know Alec Baldwin's show. Here's the here's the thing I was listening to him interview Stephen Daldry and I was telling this to Stephen R. Stephen They had just before and Stephen Daldry was saying this thing I thought was so interesting about writing even though he was he was referring to it about About actors, but he was saying, you know actors come in a lot of times he experienced and They'll say like well my character wouldn't do that or that's not my character or something like that, right? And he was saying that I correct he this is Stephen Daldry speaking He says I correct them and I say no wait a minute We're gonna create the character all together You don't know It isn't your kid. No, he what he actually said was it isn't your character It's it's it's something we're going to do together And that is the nature of writing a musical You know there are places where it's much less like that where you could go off and be a writer and create a character And you'd be all by yourself, I guess but that isn't what musicals are like and there is this feeling of like Some things being slowly, you know sort of fashioned and you are gonna be surprised by By stuff that hit comes in and then I guess the tricky part and there's a million of them tricky parts But like the tricky part is when something just feels wrong, right? Because you don't want to say no too quickly, you know what I mean because who hasn't had the experience of thinking Oh, that's such a terrible idea. And I mean we've done this to each other and you went and and then you know Three weeks later you wake up and you go fuck that is such a good idea I Have to go apologize and I you know and I have to rethink But you know that because at first there is the psychological aspect where you do want to feel like it is yours in a way and you that to me that's part of You know part of understanding how to do all this I think one of the things that's really exciting and I'm interested to hear from from both of you because You know when he is the book writer was sort of when you get The scene from the book writer and even though even if it's been really outlined and you kind of more than kind of know Exactly what's going to be in that scene But then you actually read it and you read what the characters are saying and they're always these amazing surprises and and wonderful things and you think like oh well I could just take that and make that That moment is so delightful to me. Oh always Well, that's what it's all about really I would even say that we're all looking for those moments in each other's work that if a book scene comes to me And there's there's a rhythm in the words or a funny a description of something. You're like, well, there's the song There's the lyric there's the I hear the music now that even sometimes the rhythm of the way the line lands on the page that the The book writer has created becomes perhaps the title of the song or the beginning of the hook or something because the rhythm of The words tells me oh, this is gonna be in 6-8 or this is gonna be in 4-4 like you just know where it's coming Yeah, I the Jeff witty is a wonderful book writer. I worked with him on bringing on He wrote we you know We had a draft of the show and and then we're like maybe we need a song at the end I read his last scene and I was like it's right here. I mean, this is it, you know I mean it was it was he really just had it, you know, it was beautiful and I mean all three of us knew Arthur Lawrence pretty well He was a teacher for me. He taught me and he would teach us that he would he would say That was actually the job That's how he defined his job as a book writer part of his job was to you know His image was sort of like you're almost furnishing Logs into a fire you're sort of you know, and that's why I tend with a book Obviously musical books are tend to be eloquent and and and short and and elegant and spare Because music expands in time and songs take up a lot of the time of a musical so you don't have That's the ability to maybe have an incredibly discursive scene but I tend to write and write and write because I'm not thinking this scene's gonna end up that way I'm sort of furnishing material in a funny way and that's something I was taught by Arthur And what happens if you're furnishing that material and two-thirds of it winds up not being in the show Is it that is how it is? I mean, that's what I'm saying is that That's what that's now I sound kind of old But that's how I've come to expect I don't know how else to put that that that I think is part of part of it Maybe you're saying if there's like a very special part that you love no, I'm encouraging you to say exactly what you said Look, we've had the experience I'm sure you have to where you know a book writer has said I get that you're taking all of this and you want to change that but I really just love this one line and And and I would look and you're like, okay Well, just then it'll we'll find a way that that line is there, you know I mean that's again. That's that's part of the collaboration, right? Yeah, well, I've even had things I mean speaking of wicked go obviously, you know easier for me to talk about since I've done Precious little else and also because he's sitting right here, but there's this work. There's this Part of the way I tend to work sometimes is I do fix it on certain words and certain words are gonna be important to certain characters and they're gonna almost become emblematic to that character and We had a couple of those in wicked certainly lyrically and book wise certainly the word Good and the word wicked is very very important in our world But the word beautiful. I had big plans for that word. I I had a very specific plans of When that word was going to appear in terms of Alphaba and her relationship to being beautiful whether or not she could be beautiful and I think there was maybe a time when I would say to you Well, I don't want to use the word beautiful, right? Yeah, because I'm saving it for that. Absolutely. And you're like, okay It's gone exactly because that's the kind of specificity of word choice, which we will get into talking about that, you know Obviously you're it's just a matter of making constant choices, right? It's horrible I mean you again you sort of segwayed into I sort of had two things that I wanted to talk about and that's one of them That because the title of this is something about creating character through story and so but it's about creating character so I was thinking about that and Your word choice and particularly your choice of nouns is very very important And yeah, and you should write it down because it's something I learned from observation of people whose work I admired and also You know heard and so I was thinking of I was trying to think of an example And we were talking about it and you know We were talking about the the song one short day in Wicked which is really just there Because our producer after I'd written the first two songs that were kind of grim You know said like well, I mean is there ever I mean the songs they're good But I said you want to know if anything will ever be fun in the show, right? He said well, yes, so I said all right. I'll write this sort of song where they go to So the point being that it's not an incredibly character-driven song and was never meant to be and yet there is a little section of the song where the R2 girls X are experiencing being in the Emerald City and What became very significant and it was very helpful for me because Winnie had written of course endless monologues about what they were seeing and what they Were expecting like what do they notice and there is a lyric where? They say, you know what what glinda's noticing is Dressa it goes glinda says dress salons and alphabets as libraries and glinda says palaces and alphabets says museums and those are five words and You know everything about those two girls not everything Do you know a lot about those two girls based on? What what it is that is impressing them in their visit to the Emerald City? So the point being that you create character by by your word choices For for the characters even in a song. That's not necessarily a character number. They I mean Alphaba would never notice that there were dress salons there And glinda would be like if she walked by a library. She'd be like, what is this place? They would not But but you know who they are because of those things and and I mean I know it's obvious to say but particularly when you're writing lyrics and we're all worrying about like oh god It has to fit this rhythm and the right is to rhyme and it's you know There's all the stuff that's so it's it's kind of easy to to let yourself off that hook of being very very careful about making sure that This character is singing words that that he or she that that's within the world of that character So that was one of the things that I want to make sure we said Can I jump into something I just wanted to add that just speaking of collaboration and finding your story finding Finding your tone in a number When he said I had written a lot I had I had written a lot of stuff that is certainly not in the show of them Because we talked about we talked endlessly about well. Yeah, they're going to the Emerald City together But we didn't really feel the tone like what was the tone of it and we stumbled I forget how but through these endless conversations into this idea that it was like if you only have One day in the Emerald City like it was like a like it was like they're there I remember you said it's like two girls in Paris and the feeling was we were going to get to the idea that They were together somewhere and it was forging their friendship But I really hooked into this tourist idea. So I wrote a lot a lot of dialogue about they were looking through They had a book if you only have one day in the Emerald City and they were looking through tourist attractions And I was you know making jokes and stuff But the point is it fed that feeling of the tone that we were looking for so even though none of that stuff is in the show There's the ghost of that is in the show Did you know what I mean that led to one short day the title of the song it led Exactly exactly and you could also say that there's something about the character of the place You know that what you were saying about needing a fun moment there that you are also creating a different place a different location The Emerald City is different from where we've been and so the sound of this place is different in the way that you're two women What's the question When you were writing wicked Yes, I was writing it. I saw it differently. Yeah, I don't know that there was specifically now There's no question. It's just a kind of no, but I do think that language of course languages is vitally vitally important Talk to me about language Well Georgia language is vitally vitally No, it's true. I mean it depends it defines your world and You know hands on a hard body or people and you know, East Texas who all need the money to Win that truck to make their lives possible, you know, not to not as a lark So it you have to write for those people in that world And it was fun I mean limitations of language can be really fun because they they they force you to you know I could still have fun with rhymes, but I wouldn't I wouldn't be using, you know, $10 words And and I also wouldn't be you know, they don't have to say ain't and shucks and yee-ha either because you know So you I mean you it's important to write for a full rounded character For me because I you know, I come from New York So I would have assumptions about people from East Texas, you know, and that wasn't the case But the limitations of the language and and and wicked of you know, that the language you guys made up Those things are limitations and they sort of set you free You know are the fun of it the fun of writing a show Yeah, it's really fun to write for characters who don't have the best grammar in the world Yes, we don't have the best vocabulary in the world on who misuse words who It's it's also you remind me when you said that like rhyme the amount of rhyme tells you things about the character rhyme tends to Indicate intelligence and and verbal acuity particularly inner rhyming etc So it if you have that kind of character that can be your friend But if you're trying to present a very sort of plain spoken character Then it's then it's not your friend And then you're actually working against yourself and creating Steven Steven Sondheim is a very famous story about I feel pretty And the story is that he was young it was one of his first shows and he wrote I feel pretty I feel pretty I feel witty I feel pretty and witty and bright and I pity any girl who isn't me tonight And and later in years later looking back on that. He said she's an immigrant English is not her first language and she works in a dress shop. She would not be that smart Those are not the words she would not be full of the one He's always citing as as being particularly embarrassing to him is it's alarming how charming Yes But clever rhyming is for clever characters Yeah, and I think it's important to make sure that your characters don't all sound like you They don't all speak the way that you speak and sometimes that's especially when When when seeing a new piece or reading something by a new person if you think I hear the voice of the writer More than the voice of the character. That's a problem and that is Exactly what you guys are talking about with the specificity of the character Yeah, and you can go, you know, you don't have to get it right the first time too you can sort of Write the if you if you're doing a song for a character and you can you can work out Well, what is this actually about and what does the character want and what's the title and where am I going with it? And and you can work that out and then say okay I have that in terms of the storytelling But as George just said but it just sounds like me. So now how what do I do? What words do I change? What choices do I make so it really? Sounds like that person That's really great. That's empowering to think it doesn't have to be your first pass It can be part of your editing. Well, that's like a key to life in a way I mean, I think there's such a I still struggle with this really on a daily basis where there's a part of your mind that sort of acts like or thinks that you're supposed to Come out with something that you know that looks like a tenth or fifteenth draft Do you know what I mean that you're supposed it's supposed to come out elegant and beautiful and the characters are all different from each other And that's not real life. That's not what writing is really like But still there's this fantasy in your head and I I'm just speaking for myself But maybe one or two people know what I'm talking about So it's like just to live it helps me to just literally say to myself this is the draft for this in other words this is the draft where I'm figuring out the story and In a funny way, even though character and story are certainly inextricably Related and part of each other if you really don't know what happens Next you have to figure that out and you you know, maybe your characters will be wooden for a while And that's kind of okay. You just go back later and you go now. I need to deepen this character I need to make them more human I mean, I think it's hard to say that though because of course What people do in a story is is their character? I mean, it's it's it's the same checkup right action is character Yeah, or I don't know who said it somebody said I think Gypsy Rosalie or We had like conversations with hands on hard body of talking about character like You know, there's a guy is an Iraqi vet and like for a while We're like maybe he comes back and kills, you know waving a gun because that happened in real life But we you know So you make you make decisions if that is very different character than a boy who breaks down crying because he has post-traumatic Stress disorder needs and he's comforted by an older man's different from someone who comes back waving a gun So, you know, you make decisions like that. We decided he was not a guy who came back with a gun, you know Another character as we were writing it It was helpful for us to him for him to have prejudices Because he would really rub against characters and stuff and and things that were little jokes became bigger things and that became a dramatic turning point You know, so you don't use developed characters to as it go along. Can I do my other agenda item, or do you have your right? Okay, you're leading to it. Go ahead. I just said talk to me about language. What about musical language? Thank you, Georgia Why now that you bring it up it occurs to me Yeah, this is something that we don't really Talk about very much which is that music itself creates character and Frankly for the first, I don't know 10 years of when I was professionally writing or thereabouts I actually didn't think about that very much. I you know I Was concerned in terms of songs and in terms of storytelling in terms of the emotional truth of what was happening But I didn't really think that much about character rising through music and then when I was doing the show working Great Cornelia wrote a song about a retired man called Joe and the music for that song Tells you all about the character the guy is and it's and it's all subtext the guy is talking about how happy he is now that he is retired and How full his day is and and he's just describing all the things he does in his day and the music is just going Over and over again in this kind of bleak and More in full way and I and and I was I when I heard that I thought oh The music should be telling you things about the character too I realized that you could hear that and not speak English Not actually know what the words were but you know who that character is because of the music And then there were other things in that show like James Taylor wrote the song for the character of the mill worker and it sounds kind of Irish and folk and you just you know everything about that woman's background and her heritage and everything it's all in the music and because I was working with multiple composers and they were Taking characters to whom they had Emotional affinity in some way and therefore their music was conveying that that was very influential on me So when it came time to write the song for the waitress and one of the things that she says and her in her Interview which which became part of the show is she said you know when I get heated I don't I don't give a damn I speak like an Italian speaks and so I thought well, okay How does an Italian speak and so the music became basically La Traviata? It's basically like a take-off on on Semper Libra Libra and La Traviata But the point being that if you hear the music to the waitress song Which has nothing to really to do with about being a waitress or even that much to do with emotionally what she's going through but it gives you sort of her character her her ethnicity and And these were all things I didn't use to think about but then since that time and very conscious of which is why by the time You know Got to writing wicked. I really was thinking like well, you know putting aside the words What does Alphabet sound like musically? What does Glinda sound like musically and I just think a lot of times we forget to consider that but it's very helpful Spote especially with characters of different generations They don't all sound alike and you know if someone's from Europe and someone's you know five You know if they do not all live in the same musical world, and that's what makes it exciting I Lost my train of thought when that happens, right? So I'm gonna go to the next question and maybe I'll come back to it Does the commercial viability of a project change the way you write the character? If you don't even know what that means, okay, if you're writing For a big Broadway show if you're writing for a big company Disney or something or if you're writing An off-Broadway piece or a smaller piece or if you're writing an animated film or if you're writing Depend does that change the way you write for characters that can change the kinds of characters you write and the way you write for them You know if you're writing for Disney a Disney animated feature, they probably shouldn't say fuck Well, I mean to me Honestly, it's I identify with what Linda Bloodworth Thomason was saying I mean to me. I think she was kind of alluding to what Larry Galbart had imparted to her, which is it You know, I think it's kind of a detail where it ends up. I mean, I think it has to do with you know The big the big thing for me is I identify as somebody sounds like a gender question But I identify as somebody who writes something that actors are gonna do That's how I think about it. I don't write a novel. I mean, well, that's so there. I'm not identifying with her But I mean, I'm doing gonna do something where hopefully a bunch of people are gonna come in and help me Have it happen and they're gonna play the parts. So when I'm really thinking about his actors I saw a panel yesterday where Lisa Crohn said that making a play is really making a blueprint And I was struck by that that sometimes as a writer I think I'm creating a thing and then I have created it But she was like that's not the thing the thing is actually the evening that you spend in the theater The way the actors bring it the way the set looks the way the costume correct evening and yet you and yet if you aren't writing something with the specificity this sort of emotional specificity that could inspire people nobody will come and I don't mean the audience I mean no no really good actors will show up and no really good designers in other words You have to be you have to furnish something that is attracting those creative people into your world and That's what I think about. I don't think about commercial viability. I mean to me That's not a phrase I would ever want to even think about because I feel like that would just destroy my my life actually But I mean I really I I don't even know what that means And I don't think it's possible to know what that means because you know you never know But but I do think it what you it is possible to think is this a part for instance that a person would be excited to play I mean I've said this a million times. So forgive me, but you know This one introduced me to Kristen Chenoweth the second I met Kristen Chenoweth I was like it's got to be her well How do I make that happen? She wasn't as famous then but she was getting quite famous and it wasn't the the lead the lead was Alphaba How do how do you make that happen? Do you see the mean so all of a sudden I knew well that part's got to be better And that's how that no literally and that's how that happened I mean so there's all kinds of ways that you get inspired about what the part's gonna be I'm now gonna go rewrite everything. I've ever written I Remember what I was gonna say a minute ago Steven and we were talking about using character in music And I wanted to talk about when you this isn't maybe not as much for Steven but for the other two what happens when your collaborator is not primarily a theater writer when you have to write with someone who comes from the world of pop music or the world of classical music or something else and and and There is more of a responsibility on you to to be the bearer of character How how do you negotiate that or have you had to negotiate that? Yeah, well I worked with the Trey Anastasio From fish and he joined he joined me as a co-composer on hands on a hard body And it was a learning process, but he surprised me as well because he's he's he's from a rock band And he entertains people so his job is to keep the crowd happy and entertain And so like I had a lyric for this character, and I love the lyric and I was like here you go You're welcome, you know, and he was like, you know, and he was like He was like, why is the guy talking about the truck? I'm so bored about the truck. I mean, who's he sleeping with? What's he doing? What's it? And I was like, I was like, you're right. Boy. Yeah, this is a this is adult This isn't the 80th song about a truck, you know So I went back because of him and then he had like oh, it's like Dr. John and blah blah blah You know, then we created this really fun song together and then there were instances where he was like This is a really cool lick and I was like, well, what are the actors doing? This lick is playing, you know, are they just looking at each other waiting for their next line? Like we can't there's no room for that, you know They got it We've got to just keep it going and there can't be instrumentals in between unless there it's it's it's Specific to an action or something not that there can't be but it was you know It was stopping the the drama of his song, but he caught on but a director will have to say here's what's happening Here's what your actors are. Yeah, there's a reason for it Then yeah, yeah, I mean, it's not an absolute there can't be a lick But it was sort of stopping, you know, the song the actor would be there like five six But he caught on pretty quickly but you do and and it was a learning curve for him and and he was certainly surprised about how long it took and Everything that goes into it, but he was also delighted to when the first time he heard actors singing his stuff back at him He just blew him away. Yeah Are you look like you have something? Oh, I just was gonna say I mean I've been guilty of this as much as as probably more than anyone but not more than anyone But I mean you can't really leave it to the director I mean you have the director at some point will tell you things that he or she wants to have happened But in other words if you you have to be furnishing that for yourself first Even though the director might come in and want to change things. Do you see what I mean? Like you do have to know like what's going on when Between between the verses or what in that piece in that interval. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like that would be I think critical or at least look at it this way to put a more positive spin on it and Soundless like a school marmin annoying person like it's it's an interesting question Like you know in other words you don't want to skip that question. What's happening? What's happening on stage while? Well before the second verse starts, you know what I mean in that interval because if you You you want to just pose it for yourself I Think and try to see if you if that will inform for ha perhaps I mean what is When I say what's happening obviously it's all gonna further the story. I mean it's all it's all about Helping and I love that you use the word entertaining because we do tend to lose sight of this because we've just got a million We've got a million things in our mind and life is really hard But it's got it. You know we have to think about it isn't just we're not presenting a you know a Thesis we're entertaining and it's all about seduction and entertaining and having people have a good time I'm using the word seduction in a very specific very open-ended way now. I sounds filthy, but it's just like I mean It's not about sexual seduction necessarily although that might be your story but it's about some kind of way in which you're pulling a group of people along with you and getting them very interested and that That involves really thinking about psychologically What people are longing for to have you know I always do I mean There's such a thing called obligatory beats You know what I mean like if you're telling a story about blank What would be if you were gonna walk into the theater and you were gonna see a story about a green witch And that's all you knew and you knew that she lived you know that it was This witch that you'd seen in a movie when you were young and now she was gonna have her own musical What are some of the things you would really be disappointed by if they did they didn't show up on stage? Do you know what I mean like if it if there were no munchkins in the story Would you go why were there no munchkins or would you just go? Yeah, that's cool. No munchkins like You you do want to ask yourself like what's the obligatory thing that I'm the people are waiting to have happen I think so Well, you know Speaking of obligatory beats, so there was this song and wicked Which was when the two girls are forced together as roommates and I wrote songs for that spot and none of them worked and it was so frustrating and finally I went to By that point we had a director and you know, I said to Joe Mantello. I'm having so much trouble with this I mean, maybe they don't need to sing a song here at all I mean, do we have to do that? Is this like obligatory? He was like absolutely It is an obligatory beat they're forced together we they're in the room together We have to see that and then fortunately Winnie had the idea of doing a falling in hate song or a hated first sight song And and that solved it for me And then again because again it I could I could approach it from the point of view of These two characters and what do they specifically hate about each other? and The mistake I had been making or the thing that had been a dead end was this sort of general Song they were singing about I hate being with you But it but it wasn't it wasn't specific enough to the characters and that's what what solved it You know, but the point being like it was just an obligatory beat and and we had to do it And I just had to keep trying until finally it got solved We're almost at time and so I have one last question and this is just the the as you exit fun question No audience questions Okay Let me ask this one and then we'll open up with whatever's left Tell me about a favorite character you've created and a proud Contribution of yours to that character story just a moment something that you were like I did that I Mean everything you created alphabet, but everything like a favorite moment Other people for okay. Well, I think my favorite character that I've ever written was is Frollo from hunt back no Chidam I just love being Frollo and I understand why people like to play villains He is so much fun to be this guy who takes no responsibility for any of the terrible things he does and Projects them on to other people and blames them all and that was just it's like being a Republican So much fun to go there you shouldn't go there in real life, but it's really fun to write that so I was very I'm very proud of being able to make that that character and You know and and come up with that you know the that whole hellfire song for him is the most fun I've ever had I just loved being him Amanda I was thinking I mean it's I love ready coming but the thing like one day this song in Hands on a hard body called stronger which is written by a Which is sung by a vet like I it was just one of those days like I I Was out and like the song came to me and this guy came to me I had a vision of this guy like young guy Marine with a guitar I don't know and I just was like I had to stop like I don't you know I had to like stop and sit on stupas and write and write and write and and I And I and it just sort of came like it was one of those like boom You know it happens to you and and then Like a week later. It was around the time of the Iraq war So it's not like I didn't cut it was in the zeitgeist. It was in the air all this a week later I saw a picture of that guy in the Times and this story of this boy And there was a guy at a boy and there was video of him playing guitar And and it was like literally like lyrics I'd written he was like yeah I was cutting up and and thing and my first line is like I was cutting up and acting like a fool And I was like oh my god, you know, so that was like a Chills moment. Yeah. Yeah What about you Georgia? Yeah. Oh, I wasn't prepared to answer I'm gonna make a winning. I don't know, you know, and I have an answer Which is that this isn't really my favorite favorite of I don't have a favorite, but To me we've been unofficially talking about our movie and I did get our wicked movie But it's unofficial, but I got an idea for something with Gallinda that is That is something that pleased me so much because Because it made me go, you know, I don't know I still don't know everything about her And I I figured out something else about her that pleased me so much and made and I found so Interesting that I thought shed light on her in an interesting way, and I thought it was cool that I could Really? Yeah. No, I don't want to. Really? Can I say? Yeah, well Winnie had this revelation because in the show Glinda is Upper-class and she's from the upper uplands and then Winnie had this revelation that in fact she's from sort of Middle-class or like a humble humble little that she but she has these aspirations And it actually pays off for the character in all the choices She makes and this was an example of Winnie told me this and I was like, that's a terrible idea What are you talking about? We can't do that. No, and then about two days later I called her and I said I've been thinking about it. It's just the best idea Have to do that. But my initial response was absolutely shut it down It is it's 250 we have to wrap up Do you want to I'll take one question or two questions? Oh, there are so many Back here. Okay I think this is being taken Addressed in another session, but I wondered is there no Standard etiquette for the relationship between the director the playwright and the actresses or actors in terms of like you had said you come up with an idea but if the director doesn't like it he He or she would defer to the playwright necessarily or if the actress Director sort of the word deferred You have to bring them in the addition No, the only thing is that I do really ascribe to the rule that as the I will never talk to the actors Except to say like, ah, you're doing great But I will never ever give a note to an actor that is sort of protocol in the theater that all in Everything has to be funneled through one source and and it's it's a director So that is protocol, but if you and the director are having Disagreements you have to work it out, you know, don't fight in front of the children you have to work it out privately Right, but who might win in terms of I mean, there's no etiquette. It's depending upon your relationship with the director If you're the playwright, let's just put it between those two and the playwright has another idea But the director's going no, no, no, it's fine the way it is. I don't like that Yeah, it happens all the time, right? It's not going to be that simple. It really depends on everything it depends on everything and I think The best way I can describe it is it's sort of what Stephen was saying the the the play or musical is the baby and Everyone wants to hopefully in a good situation no matter how much people are disagreeing Everybody wants that baby to grow up and do well. Okay, so it's like you whatever is best for the baby in the end Not because I had the idea or you had it or whatever. It's like what really is best for the baby and That's what makes it come together mean That's the best I can answer It's really there. I mean, it's very it's very case specific. I think and you know, not even just relationship specific You know, yeah, it's really on a case-by-case basis and sometimes you I mean, I do you think let's let's be honest I mean, there's some arguments that are not going to be solved and then you kind of have to pick your battles I mean, there were things that we disagreed with Joe Mantello about Who directed wicked and in the end it was like, you know what? That's not so important and Let's do that and then there were a couple of things where we said absolutely not Absolutely not. We are the writers. This is how it has to be and and he finally, you know And because many times we had said, you know what? I don't agree with you But you're the one who has to get the actors to do it anyway. So absolutely do do that But so when we would actually go say like no, no, no, we're going in the mad on this one He always said okay, so I guess you know, it's it's picking your battles. Thank you and we have to wrap up Thank you Yeah, just just the things to remember