 Hey, folks welcome to the podcast today. I had a really interesting conversation with a guy called Jonathan Nadler Jonathan's the managing director of the canopy of medical cannabis who are educating doctors about when and how to describe Medical cannabis and he's also a chief digital officer and partner at a private equity firm called European cannabis holdings Who are doing some really interesting stuff to try and shape the future of cannabis in Europe. It's a lobbying government trying to shed the stigma away from Using a drug for medicine that's been illegal for, you know, the best part of 70 years So that's very interesting. We cover all the various different terminology marijuana cannabis THC CBD Neutropics You know all of those things so we'll try and get ahead to around what the differences are and what they mean and We hear also about his journey from University to running a couple of marketing agencies to now being the pioneer of the UK medical marijuana industry I hope you'll enjoy it Hey, it's Lewis. Welcome to the podcast. Enjoy our conversations any time anywhere I Stop saying So I don't know you got used to it. So I've got to say it now John thank you for coming in. I was cool. I've been super excited about this podcast for ages and Even more excited now you bought me a little present some CBD or it's great. I've just finished mine. So Thanks So, yeah, what is your what's your background and how did you become a pioneer of the UK medical marijuana industry? And I'm a pioneer Yeah, thanks for having me so pleasure I I Was never great at university and I left not knowing what I wanted to do and I just kind of fell into fell into marketing and After a few years working for a large organization realized that I didn't like working for people and Much like me. Yeah, right. So so I set up an agency as one does and I was naive 24 years old What agency? It was called baby grand. Okay. It was a fully integrated agency like marketing Advertising. Yeah. Yeah, that that kind of thing. It was it was cornerstones by a high net worth individual He he had a PLC big property company and he was putting money into startup businesses as a sideline to Get away with tax, but also to see if he can make more cash in the process interesting guy his business was half backed by Lehman Brothers and We started doing stuff together and Lehman Brothers obviously went and his PLC went at the same time and I had this opportunity to to either go back and work for a large corporation or or to Keep going. Yeah, so I decided that I would keep going and I fell upon a few then fairly senior Heavyweights in the industry who are looking to start their own thing as well So I went into partnership with three other guys and we built this business from nothing and we grew over six seven years The the pinnacle being winning marketing society awards in 2013 nice and then and then It wasn't growing, you know, it was a lifestyle business for them It was their opportunity to take lots of money out on the basis and just you know, just to keep doing that rather than scale the business so I I left and started another This time strategic consultancy with fantastic strategist called Rebecca Brown Who I'd known for a number of years before she'd come and done projects for us at baby grand So we started business together and and the whole idea was we would we would try and find a way to Not create just another agency, you know, it would be different it would be us trying to be a strategic partner to companies and it wouldn't have layers of Cat managers and they wouldn't have all the things that you get in these typical traditional agencies So we built it nicely and aggressively for for 18 months But the reality is that it's very difficult to do something different in that market And we turned around one day and it was just like, okay, we're managing people again We're doing all the things that we never wanted to do. Yeah. Yeah. So what do we do? So we made a decision 2017 that we would We would go into a solvent liquidation Um, and we would extract funds Um, and we would go our separate ways Fair enough. Yeah And at that point, I just thought, you know, I've got I've got an opportunity here, you know I've done this for 10 or 10 years or so and I actually want to think about things like that That mirrors the type of entrepreneur that I believe I am. Um, so I I took the cash out and sat back for a bit and looked around the world and just thought it was happening and I've always been a passionate, um, cannabis smoker for recreational purposes purposes means making for years And uh, in the last few years, I saw I saw the the medicinal side of it and how it could really help people as well And and actually also in the last few years the way that I've consumed cannabis has been for a very different reason So, you know, I've started to smoke to be a bit more creative Um, to have a different focus on the things that I'm doing in my business, you know To really expand the mind and also to relax and to, you know, be able to do those things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Um And so I started to look around the world and I saw actually this was becoming a this is this is a Nathan industry, but there's tons of tons of cash in it, you know And there's there's interesting stuff happening. You go over to California. You go over to canada Amsterdam. Amsterdam is pretty, you know, it's been interesting there for years, but you go to these other Like, you know, canada became recreational last year in october. Yeah, first g7 country to become recreational Um, so there's clearly this tide of change medical was has been medical was for a while medical's been okay there for a couple of years and and but they they were the first year g7 country to To go into fully recreational. Yeah um Uruguay has gone recreational. Um, and clearly there's a lot of states in america now lots of states in america. So, you know, you've got You've got a number of states in in in america that are medical cannabis legal. You've got a number of states that are turning rec legal um, um, there's Clearly fundamental issues at a federal level level still. Um, but but and and it is a bit of a mess mess when it when you look at it from that perspective, but Nonetheless, it's happening. It's happening all over the states um And and then you look through other parts of europe and it's starting to opening up So, you know, germany's been open for a couple of years as a medical cannabis. Oh, okay. I didn't realize yeah And and a few others say so I so I was looking at that and then I started to look at the uk and and the the cvd market um cannabidiol started to open And it started it started to open really in 2017. It's really only gain traction in the last kind of seven eight nine months um And I thought do you know what that's Pretty much me, you know, it's business. It's uh a nascent industry. It's um going from counterculture to mainstream um, all the things that I love about business And also it's uh, it's a product that I understand inside out. Yeah So it makes complete sense consumer. You can just use your marketing skills. Exactly. Exactly. So so I thought okay, well the only way to do this is to is to um Bring out a product test the market Understand what it's about and then from there decide how to do something a bit more interesting So everyone's coming out with these oils So I just said right, okay. It's time to make an oil. Um, so 2000 so january 2018 I I brought out um budker, which is uh cbd 10 mil tincture bottle cool And where do you get that made? so I I did it I did it on small scale. So I found I found a organic certified producer in austria Organic producer of cbd off cbd. So it comes from hemp. Yeah, so so it's we need to cover all the I think we need to cover all the terms in a bit. Okay, kind of this hemp. I want a cbd. The acronym is ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, it comes from hemp. Um, so so it's um, uh It it's grown outdoors It yeah, we're like um a greenhouses or something. Well, I mean so some of some of them have Have canopies, you know, some some of them are a greenhouse. Um, some of them are just outdoor grows Uh, it's a weed, you know, it's it it it grows. It doesn't it doesn't need much to grow Uh, now clearly that you need talent to be able to grow it properly But you know pretty much anyone can grow it Um, if you really wanted to it doesn't take much So yeah, so I so it's but I wanted to find the guys that were following interesting protocol on on c to sell that understood the needs to Keep away from fertilizers that um might have an impact on the end product And I just wanted a very very clean oil. Yeah. Yeah. So I decided that I would I would Go to someone that had the organic certification. I would um, I would use Uh hemp oil as the carrier so that it was literally a one product oil Right rather than mix it with olive oil or MCT oil. Some people do that And then I brought that to market. Is it better to not mix it with the other oils? No, look, I mean it everyone has their own way of doing it, you know MCT is great because the bioavailability of it is a bit better. Yeah Mgt medium chain triglycerides. There we go. I'm happy you said that rather than me Cake in that cake in that. Yeah um and different oils have different different Upsides when you consume them. Yeah, fine, but I chose I chose hemp. Cool. Um, and so I brought that to market and and um, and I started trading online I started selling to health food shops in central london. Oh great. So we're stocked in around 50 yards Awesome. Awesome. And um And after a few months, I looked to the bank balance and thought oh hang on a sec I sat back for a bit Not done much And then I bought this product out and invested money into it and suddenly my my bank balance doesn't look as rosy So I thought okay I best go and raise some cash So I started to go around town looking for money and um And came across a few interesting investors and um, it came down to two And what one of them was one of them is offering me uh, essentially A cash injection and and a team to help fast track growth Um, but was going to take a huge proportion of the business And then the other business, um Wasn't even offering me offering me that but they Became really interesting to me because it was um, it was the first time I I'd come across a specialist cannabis investment fund right UK based UK based and um For me that was that was exciting. You know, there was there was a team of people here that had been doing Stuff in the cannabis industry for a couple of years, which doesn't sound like a long time But in an industry as young as ours that makes them Seriously mature. Yeah And they've been operating with investors over in canada where the market has been going for a number of years and they had positioned themselves in the uk and european market for leadership and fast expansion With a good with a good number of institutional and and other investors behind them. So It's a deal for money and expertise. Actually, exactly. Yeah So the conversation materialized and um, what I ended up doing was uh, taking taking a Uh, a management role within the fund Nice whilst continuing to run. Okay. Um, so I was made chief digital officer Of the fund. Yeah, I'm now also partner of the fund Um and my remit there is To use some of the skills that I've got picked up and over the last 10 years in in digital business and go around europe finding new innovation in in Cannabis technology For us to invest in very cool It's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, and then and then I was also made managing director of a new business That they wanted to incubate which is which is an online education platform for doctors. All right, which teach them about medical cannabis Um, starting in the uk which we did last november. Yeah, and now we're rolling out to different parts around the world Amazing. So what gps or whoever whoever's got an interest in medical cannabis, you know Really for us, it's it's trying to make sure that patients get the medicine they need and uh, to do that you need to educate doctors because Doctors really are the gate gate gate The key holders to access. Yeah. Yeah So if you can get past them then you can get your prescription and You don't need to take the medicine you're currently taking which may have side effects So gps will prescribe medical marijuana? No, that isn't how it works currently. So the way it works currently, um, november the first Medical cannabis was rescheduled in the uk which That means it became became legal and it became legal for medical purposes. Yeah, but It's only allowed to be prescribed by specialist physicians on the gmc register um And what's the gmc register? It's the general medical council. Oh, okay. There needs to be licensed to dispense You have to be a specialist right. Okay. Yeah physician. So you have to be you know, um, whether that be a pain specialist or An oncologist or you know, basically not a gp Right. Um, there's around 77 000 specialist physicians in the gmc register. All right, okay It's the it's the it's the doctors you get referred to by your gp. Yeah, fine Yeah But gps need to know what's going on gps need to understand the parameters. They need to know Uh, what they can and can't say to patients. They need to understand the Downside to medical cannabis and and recreational cannabis But they also need to understand the positives that it could give their patients so that they can consult more effectively um But it's really For us it's it's building an education platform for the specialist physicians So that they can learn how to prescribe properly So it's interactions with other drugs. It's dosage on medical cannabis. It's um, how it works to different conditions It's it's detailed stuff. Brilliant. Brilliant. Um, it's authored by professor mike barns Who's uh, the european leader next leader expert, you know, he's been writing for uh, government for a number of years He commissioned he was commissioned to write the barns report in 2016 He's he's at the forefront of the industry. Yeah, amazing. Amazing. So I did that And then and then a few months later, uh, they bought they bought budka, uh from me. Oh great. Okay So so now you're an investment professional well Yeah, I mean No, I'm I'm certainly not that, you know, I'm it's it's my first It's the first time I've been involved in in kind of corporate finance in this way. Yeah. Yeah um I would I would say that I'm I'm moving more towards being a cannabis expert. Yeah, um, you know, there's I've had the opportunity to go pretty deep into my understanding on the subject both through Creating the content for the education platform. Yeah, but also being around, you know, I'm seeing half a dozen businesses a week Who've gotten different cannabis ideas? Well, and um, I'm having to work with my team to make decisions on where we invest Yeah, and how we'd be that how how we build out the ecosystem across europe Brilliant. Um, so we're we're we're pretty much building the infrastructure for for the cannabis industry across europe Nice, that's our remit. And then so then what's the state in the uk? Let's say So it's medical marijuana is legal legal now from november Yeah, november the first fine. So yeah, so look so so, um, we've had hardly anyone receive prescriptions for medical cannabis last count it was I count on on under two hands right, uh, which is Incredible considering the amount of patients that are shouting for it um It's very difficult to get a script to get a prescription um, and the reason it's so difficult is because Well, a number of reasons, you know, you have to remember that this drug has been in prohibition for You know 60 70 80 years. Yeah So you've got you we've got a lost generation um Before prohibition There were hundreds of cannabinoid based drugs that were Um given to patients on a regular basis Hundreds and they they started to vanish when opiates and Drugs that you inject started to come into being and then that that depletion of um, the amount of drugs on the market an cannabinoid drugs on the market really went into Freefall interesting when um, when when when the us started to hammer home that it was a negative bad thing Yeah, um war on drugs and the war on drugs came in. So this was 70 years ago. I'll say uh, I mean when they get a date drunk It was it was it was like I wasn't alive then so I've got no idea but Yeah, you know, it was when there was black and white tv after all Um, you know, it's an an slinger who it was it was a federal commissioner in the us. Um Was one of the loudest voices to bring bring about prohibition, you know, he he um, he was a racist and a bigot and um, he He associated marijuana, which is a negative word, right? Marijuana is a negative negative word um because of his association with that word and uh, black people in the us um, oh, yeah, yeah, and He he made people believe that um, it was because of that drug that lots of um interracial relationships were happening and Other other horrible things that were happening in the country crazy man crazy at that point It was it was it was a horrible time, but it was a catalyst for prohibition um and You know It takes a long time to get rid of that stigma. Yeah. Yeah Even if there's good evidence coming out Yeah, and so and then the and in uh, I mean in america the stigma seems to have almost vanished, right? Well, certainly on the west coast. I guess like east coast new york and stuff. It's probably still a bit conservative It's coming through probably coming through. It's coming through. Yeah He's very conservative here. He's very conservative. Yeah Yeah, the government the government believes that they've done their bit. Um by rescheduling november the 1st um the reality is that They're now just passing the buck to NHS um and the Department of Health and Social Care And and suggesting that it's down to them to make these decisions But the guidance that are in place that so so there's interim guidance that that them the medical market are working to Um whilst nice come up with the proper guidance to be released autumn this year And the guidance that that's in place, um essentially limit physicians from uh from deciding to use medical cannabis as um as a medicine of choice for patients until they've exhausted all other medicines now brave physicians are standing up and saying I believe in it. I'm going to start prescribing it. You know, there's there's clear evidence in my eyes that um it's working But the problem is that um the health sector operates um based on medicines passing Stringent processes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, uh, random controlled testing Uh different phases of testing Uh, not observational testing um Then the problem with this medicine type is it's unlike any other that's ever existed. Um Over the last hundred years in in in the uk in the sense that it's a natural medicine You know, it's not a it's not a single API. It's not It's not like you've um isolated one one ingredient and that's your drug Uh, which is what gw pharma, which is one of the only cannabinoids Pharmaceutical companies to exist globally It's what they've done with one of their drugs. They've created a 99.9 cbd isolate um as as one of the drugs that have passed the um the us fda Okay. Um, you can't do that with full-spectrum cannabis And therefore the industry is fighting really hard for full-spectrum cannabis to be Given to more patients medically um, but the but but but the the the Uh, the bureaucratic industry Are quite heavy-handed on this. Why don't we just clarify what the different terms are so we've got and then we can move on to the Because it's super interesting. So we've got marijuana cannabis weed CBD thc because I think most people I speak to when I say um Hey, I've been doing cbd all at home for my pain relief because I've perhaps slipped my discs and I don't want to take like the hardcore Medicine they're like, yeah, I mean the first thing most people say is I'll just get you high You know, what does it feel like is it really cool? um, so yeah, so what's the difference between I say marijuana and cannabis and then The different active ingredients in in it. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's a marijuana and cannabis are the same thing um It's kind of it hasn't got the stigma. Yeah, cannabis hasn't got the stigma. It's crazy. I sat in a meeting the other day and and um, and um It was in it was in parliament the um chrispin blunt who's a great mp and Bangs the drum for medical cannabis. He called it stay named for it as well. Yeah, exactly great. So never thought about that I wonder if he has that's very interesting um He yeah, he called a meeting for some some of the industries to get around the table to to to have a to have a mitty Meeting we're working towards a national committee um, and one of the guys that was that was there. He's the head of uh, the social clubs So He's a great guy, you know, he he campaigns for fully recreational grow your own. Okay. Um, which is what? Another interesting patient advocate group does called the upa as well United Patients Alliance, um, really important groups for Moving things forward and they're lobbying government. They're they're they're lobbying hard and um, they're they won't stop until their patients get the medicine they need And um, he he he came to the table with a point which is around skunk You know the national media and lots of mps in government They they use the word skunk to To to to get to get across the idea that there's there's negatives attached to it But the reality is and this is what he says the other day is like The medicine that's being described for certain patients Is high in thc? Um, so high in thc that you classify that as skunk as well You know, there's there's What is there a is there a classification? It's just high thc, you know, anything over like say 15% I don't know the the the exact You know level which is classified as skunk But but the reality is is it if it's high thc It's high thc thc tetrahydrocannabinol Is the active ingredient that um, isn't intoxicating fine. So that's a bit that gets you higher. It's a bit that gets you high um It it you know, it has it has an impact on uh, neo-transmissors um, what what was found out um back in the late 90s by A great scientist in in israel whose name I've Completely forgotten and not only forgotten but if if I did remember it I wouldn't want to say it because it's quite a difficult surname um but he he found that the um that all of us have endocannabinoid systems so systems of um that have transmitters and natural natural cannabinoids So cannabinoids are the things that are found in the plant. So thc is a cannabinoid cbd is a cannabinoid Yeah, there's over 113 cannabinoids in the plant right and in our bodies. There's natural cannabinoids And what one of those natural cannabinoids is anandamide so anandamide Also known as the happy enzyme Is the thing that's released into your brain that um That changes your mood Naturally naturally And what so so you've got you've got endocannabinoids so Natural inside our bodies and then you've got phyto cannabinoids which are found in the plant um, and then you've got lab made synthetic cannabinoids, right? Okay But um But the So so so so th thc is the one that gets you high It also attached itself to receptors in your body. So it has therapeutic effect. Okay, fine. So anti inflammatory effects anti convulsant effects Um, there's there's research going on all over the world at the moment to see if it has effects to reduce cancer cells Um, there's research going on to see if it has an impact on Parkinson's disease Um, you know, there's lots and lots of stuff going on. So now and so now it's like started to become legal From certainly medical use in a lot of countries now the studies are starting to because haven't been a lot of studies I guess over the last say 70 years. No because of the Exactly the illegal nature of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so so um, there's there's a really interesting chart that um a scientist working for what one of the One of the big cannabis bodies um in the uk um, she put on screen the other week at at a conference and um It shows the growth of r and d in in cannabinoid science over the last 10 years And we've gone from next to none To to there being you know hundreds now in in motion Um, so we're gonna we're gonna start to see some really interesting stuff coming out in the next couple of years And so people are looking at so are they isolating the different um compounds a thc CBD and the others and are they also looking at like the combinations of yeah Yeah, exactly. Right. So the so We there's nothing called the entourage effect the entourage effect is is term given to uh, how full spectrum cannabinoids worked hand in hand So the idea being that um, you don't separate the cannabinoids out and you get better therapeutic effect by having them all working in harmony Um, so there's so many different genetic genetic strains of of cannabis. I don't know how many but you know, it's It goes on and on and on and they're constantly finding new genetics. Um, I'm creating new genetics. Um And and and in each of these genetics and in each of these plants when they're grown Has different levels of different cannabinoids. So you might find that one plant's got you know four percent cbd 10 percent thc two percent cbn One percent cbc and all these different cannabinoids have some kind of therapeutic benefit when they're working together So if you if you imagine that that's one And then think about how many different Options that you get with different genetics Suddenly it's like it's a lifetime worth of r and d crazy And is this one of the reasons why we're not seeing it prescribed so much at the moment? Because because like how much do you take? What do you prescribe? Can you overdose? Uh, there's been there's there's been no cases of overdose and there's been that there's there's been no cases of death related to cannabis um There clearly there's downsides So there's there's there's some level of evidence to show that uh within young developing minds Uh high thc could have an impact on the brain Like psychosis and psychosis, but uh, there's also evidence to show that that could be attached to People who have Certain genetics anyway So, you know, there are risks attached to it at certain points, but the same goes for You know, you you you wouldn't The the the reason why epileptic children's parents are campaigning so hard for medical cannabis instead of the drugs They're they're taking it's because the drugs they're taking are having massive negative impact on their children. Yeah, you know, so It's not just cannabis cannabis is just in the limelight, but it's because it's a new It's a new drug It's a new thing and it's about the barriers are much higher than yeah the currently used And I guess that the back to the skunk stigma and the high No, no, no, it's all connected. I mean because the high th the skunk is always considered to have a lots of thc, right? and then you think about young kids smoking lots of skunk and I don't know going crazy or depressed and Yeah, and stuff like that. And I guess it hasn't been many long-term studies yet On the on the long-term effects most of the anecdotal I guess um Yeah, there needs to be more done on on both sides both, you know We need we need to find out how it can be used as a cure and That that's clearly the most important thing for us to to focus on over the over the next 10 15 20 years But it also needs to That there needs to be r&d done on on on the negative impact of of it as a drug as well. And I think that you know um What what what what the medical community need most is is just the scientific rigour, you know the the evidence base to give them the reassurances they need to to use it in um Some kind of program of of of medicine for their patients Um, and until we have more research It's going to be very difficult for those doctors to feel Motivated to to and confident to actually to actually prescribe So we need we need evidence, but we can't rely on the format of evidence that The medical World has relied on to date because as I say it's a natural medicine We mentioned the different cannabinoids found in the plant. There's too much differentiate too much of a differentiator between each of the different genetics And it's too difficult for us to test in the way that they have historically tested other medicines So there needs to be a breakthrough very quickly whereby they turn around and say We know we we recognize that we can't do random control testing in in the same way here So we need to look at it in a different way Perhaps the way that we look at rare diseases and medicines that we need to produce for rare diseases in this country And come to a conclusion to wherever we say if there's enough observational evidence um, that's the point where we say Okay, therefore as specialist physicians, we should be aggressively prescribing this to patients that are Showing signs where they need this type of medicine. Is there a willingness to do that? it's it's you know, there's there's fragments, um, we're within Department of Health and yeah, NHS and so on that that are fighting for it that they're actively looking for ways to do this It's just you know, we're operating long journey. It's a long journey. It's a slow bureaucratic system It's it's painful. Is there much going on in the u.s. It's been being being more going on in the u.s. Yeah, yeah, the the r&d in the u.s. Is phenomenal. Yeah, must be amazing. We can't use that We can't use their research. Why not? um And in israel as well, you know in israel the research in israel is is fantastic. Um, we can't use their research because And I think rightly so, you know, we we we have different ways of going about researching medicines The states are fantastic and the universities clearly do phenomenal things when it comes to r&d. Yeah They they approve medicine Uh at much faster rates than we do But the reality is is that if you if you look uh in retrospect and and and you go back six months after certain drugs have been released into the market they pretty much vanish because It might be that after a few months they realize that it's not actually as effective as they believed it would be right, okay, and um And I think because of that the the the uk take a a conservative stance on this and they say we need We need to do it our own way. Oh, fine. So the runway is much longer here. Yeah Well, the process is just different process different. Yeah So we need so if we look to the u.s. Then lots of people are getting prescriptions for medical marijuana. They are They are it's huge. I mean you you're going to certain states and you don't even need to have A card, you know, you can just go into it's recreationary and you can buy what you want Fine, and then you can select the content of thc cbd Yeah, it's like it's like walking into an apple shop, you know, you can You can go you can scroll through a um Uh a tablet and just select the one you want and suddenly it comes out in a nice box You know, it's and and but the interesting thing about about the u.s. Market and and other, you know markets like canada is um, the demographic for consumption of This is is actually a lot older than you might think. It's not it's not teenagers looking to get high I mean clearly that that does happen. Yeah. Yeah, but it's it's the over 50s. Really? They've got information who are like Maybe using other pain relief. Yeah pills tablets, which obviously addictive bad for your stomach All of that kind of stuff and maybe want to get off that. Yeah opioids. Yeah, I opioids is is Uh a growing killer Yeah, so addictive and an addictive and and actually has horrendous side effects. So Those that have been on those that suffer with chronic pain um Which clearly becomes a large proportion of society when you get older um They're trying to get away from those drugs and and medical cannabis is a natural alternative that actually works So how far away are we? Do you think here to like genuinely be able to go to doctor? I know you've got pain. You need relief. Donate tablets. Yeah um, so So Our fund um has a chain of medical cannabis clinics Uh, so the first one opened in Manchester a few weeks ago And we've got one opening in the Harley street in a few weeks and um, we're going to have probably six or seven This year in the uk and then the expansion into europe. Um this year and next year Um, and we've had our pain specialist dr. McDowell up in Manchester prescribe ready for for chronic pain. All right These are private clinics. These are private clinics. So if I've got some pain, I can go to the clinic Pay for an appointment. Yeah, and they'll go through my whatever my case and if relevant prescribe me Is that actually and you can and when do you get when do you where do you get it from? So that that's that's that's the difficult bit, you know, we're so So I've got my prescription. I'm like, yes, finally finally you've got something for your pain. Um It's very it's very challenging at the moment, you know, we we we're trying to give access to patients. So um, so again our fund Um, has just gone into a joint venture with one of the largest specialist importers in the country. Um, and The idea being that, um, we can help get The prescription into the country because none of it's cultivated here currently. I mean, look nothing's grown here at all It's grown here. Um by british sugar for gw farmer We're the biggest exporters of medical cannabis globally. Who are we the uk really? Yeah, that's crazy. It's crazy. But yeah, we can't we can't We can't get prescriptions from So so they grow in the uk really not yet weird. So we go to we have to go to eugnp certified Um, so who do they grow it for they grow it for gw farmer, which is which is the company that makes the Epidialax and a few other meds that use cannabinoids um It's a bit convoluted. You know, it seems strange, right? It's like, uh, everyone loves like homegrown local projects Yeah, it feels like we should be getting our medical marijuana from the uk Um, we need we need to maybe after brexit will have to who knows Yeah, we need to we need to you know, we we um If you look at other countries that are opening up, they they're they're working hard to be self-sufficient but the reality of it is is that um currently Canada mainly other parts some parts of europe have got Cultivators of the realm, but mainly canada has got cultivators that have the right pharmaceutical grade product Um with the right certifications to be brought into this country to be used as medicine um, so so our our task currently is you know short term before A better fix is in place. How can we help get cannabis into the country? And then how can we help get that cannabis to the patient fine? And so ultimately would one be able to go to one of the harley street clinic Get the prescription they need and then also get the uh the prescription from your clinic Uh, we wouldn't be able to actually Dispense it you can dispense it But but but they would they were then going to find a pharmacy to be able to Who would then be able to go and find it from our importer? Oh, okay fine. So at some point the local pharmacy will have Not not yet, but yes in in in the future in the future. Yeah, and then just to confront just to cloud it So it's it's it's regarded as a pharmaceutical It's regarded as a special A specials medicine. Okay Um, so there's a number of special medicines which haven't gone through the same process for licensing As a pharmaceutical grade medicine. Okay And uh We're probably be in that Category for a while longer. I mean the the the drugs like the epidiolux Um From gw is a is a pharmaceutical Which has fda approval in the u.s. Okay. Yeah And has actually been able to be prescribed in the uk for a while, but it's just Um, very very expensive. I mean, I forget the exact figure, but it's tens of thousands of pounds a year to have that medicine for one patient all right fine, but yes, but but but but theoretically In the short term before nhs thought they're act out um, you can be referred to a private clinic or a specialist physician and if that specialist physician Decides that you need medical cannabis They will write you out a prescription Which then you can go and get your medical cannabis with But the not but you can't the challenge is actually getting the medical cannabis And and then you have to wait a while to actually get the medical cannabis in so we still have then I guess A big section of society that are getting it illegally if they really want it. Oh, yeah I mean and then hopefully as this all starts to Clear up we'll have a a good supply and Yeah, I mean you you get it. I mean the the cost for this because you'll have to pay for this yourself so the the Prescription that was fulfilled um a few weeks ago, which made it into the news um it It came out at 1,400 pounds for 50 grams. Wow And then if you were to get 50 grams illegally, yeah, so what you're looking at a few hundred quid or yeah, yeah So why would you not go to a different a different black market source? I mean, it just doesn't make sense does it? I mean the the the only thing stopping people from doing that is that they don't want to break the law. Yeah. Yeah, but um You know if if you can I think there was wasn't a case of a kid at the the airport or something. He had um They had a vehicle something confiscated something was confiscated. Yeah, an epilepsy case. Yes. That's it. That's it. Yeah Crazy. Yeah, so the cbd Yeah, right. So that that is is different, right? Um, so that's is that classified as a health food? Rather than like what's what's the scenario around that because I go to holland and barret or wherever health food shop Yeah, and and then you can just buy the oil or the vape or Yeah, it's it's the this is great also um I don't know. Don't if you notice a theme here, but we're we're in the grey market. That's why you're pioneering So yeah cannabidiol um cbd, uh, it's it's classified as a well It's actually classified as a novel food that we're in the middle of of of a few challenges here um The the market for cbd has grown over the last 18 months to a fairly considerable size um the cannabis trade association who uh Look after the cbd market from a from a A brand perspective so they have hundreds of brand owners As members. Oh, okay. Yeah, they they they gave a figure the other day of seven million People consumers in the uk are taking cbd regularly. All right, and that market's grown in the last 18 months It's grown as a food supplement So That's been the way that we've managed to overcome regulation um, so by it being a food supplement It sits with the food safety food safety food standard agency fsa um As opposed to the mhra medical health medical health regulation authority. I think terrible my acronyms timmy accurate. That's too late um, but EU level um changes that are currently going on are trying to rubber stamp cbd being classified as a novel food Novel food meaning that um, if you can't prove that it was ingested um Orally as a As a food type pre 1997 right Very obscure really random, uh, then then it can't be sold. It's illegal uh, so The industry is struggling massively to to overcome this at EU level. It's an ongoing thing happening right now And um, we've been known a few weeks where where we stand on on it. Oh, so it could be off the shelves It could be on the off the shelves quite easily. Um And there's clearly a bit of scare mongering going on But the the largest, uh Retailers that stock cbd Like cullen and barrett, um planet organic people like that Uh, they're Best they're fast, you know, they're not they're not moving. They're like selling it. They love selling it. It's it's you know It's a cash cow for them, but also they get observational evidence giving back to them by Customers on a regular basis saying it's working Um, so what do people use it for? So it's you so it's used for a number of different things. So um You've got a bunch of people that will use it to sleep better It calms the mind, right? It's very difficult this one because you you can't give too many benefits. You can't you can't claim benefits uh So it's it's quite a tricky subject. You can't claim it. What because there's not been enough studies or Well, because if you claim a benefit then It's a medicine Oh, I see. But what about a um, I don't know like spirulina in your smoothie or something or you have to be very careful with that also You know, it's MCT oil All of these things you there's there's certain parameters you have to you're guided by Um, as soon as you say CBD helps cure eggs Uh, suddenly that's been that that's that's a claim If you're doing that then you better have evidence behind you to prove it Okay, right and the evidence And evidence in such a way that is is validated But but you're you're you're you're straddling Food supplements and medicine if you do that you have to be very careful, but why people take it Um, people people seem to take it to sleep better um, they they take it because They are they have anxiety Maybe depression and they they use it because they think it would help with that they They may use it because they have IBS cranes disease and and things that um around gut health Where they where they see this is um as assisting them with those symptoms Um, you have You have a huge population of of people that do yoga and go to the gym that take it to mend quicker just to to reduce inflammation Okay, yeah, there's there's a there's a number of reasons why you might take it um What what what we're doing is we're we're trying to move it We you know it It's a funny thing, right? You know, you've got seven million people taking this now And the majority of them are taking it in tincture form. So they're taking it in these 10 mil brown bottles Okay, so what so like dropping oil? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, putting it under their tongue We're bioavailability is a bit better So it goes into the bloodstream quicker. It's right into the bloodstream. Yeah and um And that's great, but people looking in And the majority of these people So it's like early early adopters early adopters that take cvd. They take it because they're at their wits end You know, they've tried everything. They're desperate, you know, they they can't sleep or they're they're constantly anxious Whatever it might be they see this as a remedy So they're the people that come in first And then there's then there's the other people that have inflammation after exercising They want to continue doing what they do that and this is just another way for them to hack To to to kind of optimizing what they do. Yeah But for us it's like, okay We we want to normalize cannabis And what cbd starting to do quite nicely is it removes the stigma Because although it's still a psychoactive because it does have an impact on on the mind It's not on it's non intoxicating So it doesn't get you high. Yeah And drive on it. You can yeah, exactly. You can do anything on it Uh, I mean there's there's the flight that there's small type that says, you know You shouldn't take it if you're lactating or you know pregnant or what have you but again That's just safety measures. Yeah. Yeah um So what we want to do is we we want to keep normalizing it and the way for us to normalize it is to put it into a product that moves away from just being a tincture and becomes a consumer mass market product So we now have come up with a health snack bar And the health snack bar is called it's called neuro n o o r o and it's a play on Neurological. Yeah And it's the first it's the first health snack bar for your mind with cbd right So what's in it? Well cbd. Yeah And and dosage like is it like 20 25 milligrams. Is that a lot of cbd? It's a fair amount So it's about it's a daily intake. It's a daily intake. Yeah, so if you've got genuine I don't know if you've got some Pain or insomnia or something like that you could have that and that'll Well, I mean again, we can't put claim to it. Um, but but you know, so we so what we say is If you're looking for calm clarity and focus, you know, this is for busy people, right? We want it to be an ingredient for mind health, you know So we want people to think about eating food for cognitive function And we know we're big into new tropics things that have an impact adapts gens things that have an impact on the way that your mind And so new tropics are things that Improve your mental health Focus cognitive stuff. Yeah. So, you know, we're you're you're um, you're your your brain masses Around 3% of body weight Yet requires 15% of oxygen and blood flowing to it Yeah, right. Um, and you know, so certain new tropics help with blood flow in your brain Yeah, uh, which keep you more active keep your brain healthier Um, and cvd has very similar qualities to it, you know, it helps release Uh serotonin in different levels to your brain It helps with an and mind release into your brain These things that change mood that help you relax more that give you focus, you know All that kind of stuff is is what cvd does brilliant So we want we want to put it into a snack bar and we want we want people to start eating food snack food Not for energy for your body or protein for your body But actually to help with your mind. Love that. Yeah, love that. You can speak to my friend tabi He does the vending machines. We're gonna be with him. We're gonna be with him. Are you amazing? Get that out. We'll we'll definitely try some I'll bring some in. I'll bring some in. Yeah bring some in because a lot of the snack bars You're right a protein and yeah fuel. Yeah, then this is fuel for your mind, which is actually right super cool Love that. What about vaping? Uh cbd and many people doing that. Yeah, yeah, because I started doing that because I I basically have um three slip disks in my back Yeah, um too much running and stuff so um So basically I'd be I was on like naproxen and a few other Pain relief, but yeah, it's not good for your stomach and I'd rather not be on any of that And then it was around about the same time cbd started to get uh some traction So I started trying it with the vape vaporizer and then um Yeah, for me, it seems to have worked really well I've never I haven't taken the pain relief like the tablets since and I've just been vaping and then I use the Oil and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the problem. I found is that you never quite know how much to take You can just keep having a go at it because you can't really you can't overdose on this stuff Um, and look and this is I don't think so anyway. No, no, no Well, I've never seen it. No, so for me, it's been it's been really cool. I'm very very very very interested I mean I I tried to distance myself from anything that you and hell um I just don't like um Look, I I know normally more needs to be done more more needs to be done across across the board From an evidence perspective on cannabis generally, but I don't think that I would ever feel comfortable um recommending to anyone friend or otherwise To inhale something into their lungs um You know, there's clearly carcinogenic um issues attached to it um Smoking yeah, but vaping I thought vaping the same thing because you're you're you're still inhaling some kind of Substance into your lungs. Yeah. Yeah So just there isn't enough known not enough ever no trials or yeah, and and I just feel very unsteady um Talking to anyone about inhaling anything pretty enough. Um, so for me for me the mark the market is oil and capsules um And there's also the vaping I guess still a little stigma because it's smoking and yeah Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I I I think I think that If you if you look at the the growth areas in places that are Recreation legal or medical legal in places like us You'll see you'll see there's a huge influx of people that are taking it in oil form or edible form Um, and and that's the market, you know that the the the market will be edibles and oils and capsules Um, and we'll we'll see anything in hell die die down Yeah, yeah, I think you're probably right. So the caps you can just take a couple before you sleep or when you wake up Along with your other vitamins and minerals and stuff like that. That's it. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. How far do you think we're away from recreational? your question Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what we all want, right? So our line's our line on this is is that you know, we we are just medical But clearly recreational is is is where people think we need to go Um, you won't get and you'll get very few MPs talking about recreational Um, even though there was a question in parliament, um a few months back, uh, that asked for a vote on it and we actually weren't A long way off um I think we're probably I think we're probably Uh, five years away. All right. I should think what actually happened here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's gonna happen Um, it's just a question of if that happens recreationally then for all the medical stuff. That's gonna be Awesome, right? Just available and yeah, well, I think the process is Um, it will open up More to specialist physicians in the next six to nine months So you'll see a lot more, uh, referred patients getting medical cannabis prescribed to them Um, you'll then see NHS move up, uh, once product comes down in price and um, and more evidence is available on it And therefore more patients will be receiving, um, medical cannabis Without having to pay for it And then once that happens, um, gps will be able to prescribe so you'll be able to go to your local doctor And um, if they see reason they'll be able to prescribe your medical cannabis and then a few years after that, um They'll start to be, uh, um, some kind of change in regulation that will mean that you can go to a dispensary of sorts like a chemist. Yeah. And um, and and buy medical cannabis freely. Brilliant. So this is an unstoppable train now It looks that way. Yeah. Looks that way to me. I mean, there has to be something Something big and fundamental has to happen, uh, to stop the the process from happening Uh, so you would something dreadful like, you know people dying because of it um, or huge huge amounts of evidence appearing which shows, um long-term effect negative effect If you see things like that, it would be very difficult for the industry to fight back Yeah, um, but the way things are going and the evidence that we're seeing globally shows us that That's the last thing that's going to happen. You know, it's helping people everywhere Um, it will continue to help people and those that aren't having the ability to access it are suffering because of it And it's getting to a point where it's almost inhumane, you know, that you've got people that are really on their knees calling out for this and We can see from other things that's happening that other stuff other stuff that's happening with patients in other parts of the world that It's working for them. Yeah So the fact that the same type of condition isn't being dealt with with the same medicine in this country Is is appalling really? Yeah, and it's the change. No, definitely Awesome. Well, keep doing what you're doing. Yes. Um, thanks for coming in. Thanks for having me. No pleasure. Um, great to speak Cool. Cool. Thanks, man. Cheers Hey folks, thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places