 Okay, I guess, Nicola. Okay, welcome back everyone. My personal favorite panel discussion is starting. So we welcome our speakers, Adam Joppa, Jonathan Riddell, Liddy Avincio, Nicola, over to you all. You need to select the icon of headset and it will ask you to join. Okay, I think it should be working now. I didn't know I need to reload everything. Okay, so hi everyone. So thank you for the introductions and you've all seen Nicola Mayfem and Jonathan speaking just a while ago, but also we have Lidia here, the former president, current vice president and what was she not involved in, right? So you should know all about her and also I'm here and we'll be talking about KDE goals, the initiative and we'll be starting with questions from the audience right now. So you can start typing them there and I'll be asking everyone that will be having a nice chat. But I have a small question ready for everyone right now. So maybe in one sentence, what was the previous year in terms of KDE goals for you? Let's start with Jonathan. Hi, can you hear me? Am I good? So doing the goals, it was pretty scary as I said last year, still is kind of scary. Changing, trying to have a bit of a control shift, a bit of an attitude change within KDE and outwith KDE, it's a soft fluffy goal so it's hard to measure how that has worked. I know as I said in my talk that I've had a number of sort of argumentative tough discussions with people within KDE trying to say no, we need to be able to deploy our apps and promote how we deploy our apps and do it within the project or give people the power to be able to do that. And so far that's happened. There's still a heck of a long way to go and one of the obvious failures of this goal is that I haven't been able to build too much of a community in the way that I've done with other projects where you can see Carl's done with a web project, he did a blog post and something a lot of useful volunteers come along to make websites. I haven't succeeded in doing that so if you want junior jobs because a lot of this is relatively easy to do, do come along to our channel KDE all about the apps on Matrix. Okay, thank you Jonathan. Maybe next Maven, the same question. In one sentence, how was the year? Yeah, it's been a bit challenging because I got into a subject that I didn't have quick knowledge about, both community-wise and technically. I meant to again to learn about this so but it was kind of overarching personal goal and within the goal it was about it's also how to give some momentum, to give some consistency enough together to work together and then to animate, give our progress which are kind of slow and not particularly visible sometimes and give feedback about our progress. That's something that has been a bit challenging and giving how our goal is kind of really overarching being and on the long run we cannot expect to give our goal a precise date anytime soon so it's kind of of low-coming and steady and kind of feels or restricting on our own group but we have been making progress and we will be better I think because we are still learning anyway. Yeah, thanks Maven. Same question, Nicola, how was the year? It was difficult but also very rewarding. This was my very first year of strong involvement with KDE and I really have to say that I enjoyed it. So at the beginning I didn't know how to approach the problem of goal keeping but I really have to say that I'm happy that I put my effort in it and it's going pretty well I think. Okay, thanks and we asked the champions but also Lydia how were the goals in your opinion in the last year? I think for the three new goals we've made great progress and they're doing pretty well but I'm also really happy that we haven't lost sight of the first round of goals that we had and that they're still showing progress even today. For example, the onboarding goal with the migration to give that and already making it easier for people to contribute to KDE. That's really cool. Yeah, I agree. Thanks, I don't see any questions in the shirt notes yet but I have some some prepared. So how do you think we could use the same energy of the goals in different projects or in your project the person who is watching this right now and also is involved in the community? You're not part of the goals but maybe you can use the same form of engagement that the goals have. What do you all think? How can the goals help the others in the community? Maybe starting with Jonathan again. One of our items on the to-do list and I sort of tried to do it in the talk where I said here's a few best practice ones and Crito of course everyone uses this as an example because it has on its webpage here's how you can download it here's the app stores that you can get it in and it would be great for every KDE app to have them on all the app stores but also to make sure that the websites point to those app stores and promote different means of getting it as is best for the user and so we talked last year about having a sort of a check mark or a gold standard for apps that succeed in getting them on as many stores as possible distribution methods as possible and up to date of course and and having some sort of automated way to check that that would be awesome and then we could say well there's contacts it's a fabulous app it's not much used on windows but it could be used on windows so so let's work on getting that built on windows on the Microsoft store on in chocolatey and then suddenly it gets a nice big tick I would love to be able to do that I think that's sort of the end goal of where I want to be yeah thanks thanks Jonathan um maybe any opinions about that well yeah it's really about gathering moments of and finding people to to get involved so so that's that's really applicable to a lot of of domains and in a great example but I don't have a particular better vision than that it is great to have a focus for a group yeah thanks Nicolas how about you I think a good way we used to generate momentum and engagement was to start from a VG discussion in this case and then immediately go doing some mock-ups and being the mock-ups very attractive in their look it generated in the developers a sense of a sense of I want that so they immediately started working on some stuff so that's something that really has helped us thanks Lydia what's your take um I think I would add to what you guys have said that um it's very important to as a team have an agreed upon goal right um and lots of people have ideas but then at some point you have to come together and agree on something and say yes this is where we're where we're going and the goals I think have shown how powerful that can be yeah totally agree so now a question just for for our champions our gold champions here um I assume the work that you're doing would be done either way if you're um selected as a goal or not but how do you think being selected as as the goal for for now has improved the the work being done on on your specific topic starting starting again with Jonathan uh yes good question it's um we a lot of the focus of the activities that wakes me up every at least once a month is doing those um monthly app updates um and of course in doing those I try and look at the different stores and and feature one of those or interview somebody in both of them uh look at the different apps and see for each app um where how can the users get those for the different distribution methods that they use um and and yeah so having that regular monthly uh task that that we know we've got to do means that that I've at least uh woken up to once a month to have a review of well how are we doing what has changed in the last month but what are we able to do so that's been quite a a useful way to to run the goal is uh yeah making sure you get woken up once a month to do that okay thanks um maybe can I add the other app updates uh please everybody contribute to them so yeah if you release an app then please give some notes to us so that I can do it the next month because otherwise it's a bit of detective work but it's really nicer if the app maintainers give the give their new release data to me or or some sentences to me yep thanks uh maven yeah well as as uh open source uh enthusiasts and developers we our goal has been really great about uh helping us focus on some subjects where especially within caddy we have we have the tendency to contribute to have a uh to wide variety of subjects some of our developers and here it was a really good opportunity to to focus together and and that's one of the goal election made to these goals particularly is to devote more of our time available time to this particular end and uh it's it's also nice uh from the outside of caddy community so that they know that we have an effort and and and working to add this goal and that's I think helping also because uh it gives us more credit than and more well outside communities can see our commitments and and I think that's gonna serve us and and more generally the project yeah Nicola well first of all being selected as a goal immediately gave me much determination much more determination to put effort in it so that was like the very first thing but also there was much more uh formal involvement such as we had a budget from the board that we actually didn't use but it was very nice to have and we also had a monthly meeting to see how it was going and we had the opportunity to make monthly uh blog updates to be retweeted by the offshore caddy account and be put on the dot and so on so that really made made it much easier yeah you're definitely not as scared as you showed in in the picture from your presentation anymore um okay next question and then that's again I think more focused to to our champions here would you consider becoming a gold champion maybe for a different topic again after this this round ends Jonathan would I consider becoming a gold champion again I I don't want to because I want to this won't be done next year so I want to keep going with this stuff depends on what opportunities and who knows what will happen in the world over the next year it's it's quite unpredictable we find out but yeah I think I would want to stay actually focused on all about the apps after it stops being the primary goal but um as with the previous set those projects always continue on understandable thanks uh Maven how about you well the irony is that I kind of uh participated well uh well my goal is not yet finished so I'll be working on it so I won't be proposing any uh any new one anytime soon who what the future tells but I know that I've been already participating to a goal a previous goal the usability and productivity goal I've been contributing and that's what's in the first place got me into the into contribution in fact so so it was a very good motivation at the start to to add myself to this goal so my my conclusion is like uh we should uh uh being involved in the goal is really rewarding and it makes it very uh approachable for outsiders to to add themselves to thanks Nicola Nicola I thought about it but I don't think I will not because I'm not having fun but because I want to give the opportunity to someone else to have fun because uh since I was uh selected my goal and I never had the previous kiddie experience I think that it is also a way to onboard more people so if new goals are selected and the gold champions are new people that would be absolutely amazing yeah I think that's a great take and we have finally questions from uh from the audience so let me start um you are the gold champions right so how are final decisions made when there are a lot of internal contradictions let's go with Jonathan again well I can't think and Katie um and part of our strength and part of our weakness is that we don't necessarily have a hierarchy where somebody can say this is how it's going to be it's got to be an endless discussion until you come to a general agreement um being a a gold champion gold scorer um I think does give me a bit more clout and ability to say this is how it's going to be um this because it's been chosen by the community right um so yes I think that does help um one one one failure that we've had in the last year that I had on my slides was was the KSNIP application where somebody came to KDE and said I've got the screenshot tool can I build it in KDE um and and there it was rejected because people said oh there's already a screenshot tool why don't you just work on that one and so he went away and and just did his work elsewhere and he's got a successful project now so that's very much our failure not to do that um and I kind of wish that I'd I'd call that earlier call that when it happened um in order to say no that's that again it's a bit of culture that's got to change where yeah if someone wants to do it an application that does similar features to another one that's okay within KDE that's always been okay um within KDE um but I didn't quite gather in time but I think that if I did because because of the goal um then that could have been fixed and hopefully future situations it will be fixed okay thanks how are final decisions being made on your end Maven well um well uh kind of a democratic way I'd say uh we are within our goal we didn't have many uh subjects of hard contradiction it has been mostly conceptual work but I would say in general it's about democracies about debating and what's in more accord accordance to our values first and then uh passive and then uh in the end it's it's about who who is the most uh which of the views is more popular or at least uh after a good debate and and uh but we didn't have a many uh such instances for the well goal thanks amicola this is a bit of a thought question because uh that's something we are currently going through for the econ sizes the final I think and the other is that we discuss a lot sometimes even for months and it's a bit stressful but I think that um the handling is to find um uh something that we all agree upon we all do some uh we sacrifice something of our ideas until we find a common point and that's very democratic democratic of us I think thanks um the next questions I think could be to Lydia one of the masterminds behind the goals initiative is there a stipulated time period to achieve the goals Lydia so a lot of the goals aren't really made to be finished achieved it's something to work towards so for example the onboarding goal is clearly something that will be with us for many more years um and and is an ongoing thing we have to work on as our infrastructure changes as the world changes around us as our community changes and then there are some that are more achievable and more um but in the end I think it's more defined the wayland goals probably the the prime example of that um once we have well and in a very good state we can probably take that off which isn't to say that wayland will not need to work after that of course I hope that answers question yeah I think so we have only a few minutes left but let's do another one and I think I have a feeling I know the answer to this one do you feel there are enough people working on reaching the current goals until next year Jonathan well as I said I've not been able to get much of community around the goal um we have a channel please come and join us but that's because a lot of the work is is not uh specifically in a team that makes up the goal although the work is in the individual applications right in the 200 300 projects we have uh where those applications and being developed they also get that final step of um being shipped through the stores or or in easily downloadable packages um and a lot of that is happening and so every month when I write the app updates there's new release and I say great this new release is available through your through the app at midge or through the through a windows executable through the Microsoft store so that work is happening um and it's may or may not yeah so it's not always happening directly through the goal team which is totally fine because it should be um for the whole kd community to embrace the the whole philosophy okay thanks Maven yeah given the the the scope of our goal well you that we never be enough people basically well it's about being as stable and as as a great software that we can offer to our community and uh that's that's just uh an ideal uh an end goal of a matching goal so so especially for for such something as technical we will never be able to iron out any bug and uh at least for the foreseeable future and so more people do more than fewer people so uh we are a small uh small group currently that's uh watching all right uh as it's as a strong with a strong pace but more people with the work a bit a bit more or deliver more at the end so that's that's my view thanks Nico only 60 seconds are you happy enough people i think so because i uh mostly use the consistency sorry the vdg group as the consistency group kind of because that they are very related so most of the vdg people also find work and for consistency so yes okay and i think we're out of time now thank you very much the gold champions Lydia for taking your time answering questions and yeah have a good academy everyone thank you all cheerio