 From the Magnificent Midwest, it's the Suzanne Banker show where men and women are equal in value, but wildly different by nature. Join us here every week as we challenge the culture's hugely flawed narratives on men, women, sex, and love. From coast to coast and from around the world. Thank you for joining us. When was the last time you heard something positive in the media about men? It could be in the news or in a commercial or in a television program or in film. Yeah, that's what I thought. And when was the last time you read a magazine article or a novel in which a man was not at the root of a woman's problem? I'm guessing I'm hearing crickets right about now. Today, I'm going to be talking with someone who has made it his mission to, quote, restore masculinity back to men worldwide and to build a positive future for men, boys, and fathers. His name is Anthony dream Johnson. And yes, I asked him about the name dream. We'll get to that. He is achieving his mission via the internet in a space that's known as the manosphere. Anthony is a CEO and entrepreneur who took the bold step of dropping out of college and transforming people's lives through self improvement and personal development. He built an organization 21 studios and the 21 convention that guides men on how to become successful people in their businesses and lives to understand what it means to be an ideal man and to improve their relationships with women and themselves. Anthony style is very different from mine. He's quite bombastic and likes to curse a lot. So I asked him to hold that down a little bit for our conversation today, which he did. Welcome to the show, Anthony. Glad to be here. Appreciate having me on Susan. Suzanne. Suzanne. Pardon me. Pardon me. That's okay. I get that all the time. Like I'll order something from, you know, some food or whatever. And it's Suzanne always gets turned into Susan. I think because people don't hear the word name Suzanne very often. But Susan is very common. Okay. So I want to begin by just sort of telling everybody how you and I met, I guess you could say earlier this year. So let's let's start with that. Yeah, I believe I just reached out to you by email. I was looking for basically anti feminist, pro-femininity kind of authors for women. And that's a much different tune than what I took in 2020 when the event make woman great again 22 convention was explicitly 100% mansplaining. So I took a pivot in 2021 and I found some Janice obviously was, you know, the keynote. We're supposed to be the keynote. Unfortunately, that was not able to happen. Yes. Professor. So we just reached out to you over email and I do that from time to time trying to find new speakers. And I kind of figured you would be a little bit didn't know what to make of it when you probably saw the website. It's very, very polarizing. The attendees have told me that different speaker. I mean, obviously it's super polarizing the world told me that in 2020 because when we launched the event you just spoke at for women, the 22 convention, the spin off of the 21 convention for men. It went viral. It reached 150 million people on social media, terrestrial radio, major international TV appears Morgan, the newspapers, everything. Yeah, we're going to play that later. But anyway, you know, you told me that you reached out to Janice right away, who I love so much. And in my understanding, she kind of vouched for me and like Anthony is not playing around. He's very polarizing like a little like a Trump almost, but I mean what I say and I mean what I do, even if it's hyperbole sometimes and ramped up through the roof just to anger enemies and people don't like. Let me start there for a minute because I was going to talk about this later, but since you brought it up, yeah, that is what I did. And part of the reason I was checking with someone who knew you because I certainly don't shy away from anything polarizing someone. Very polarizing obviously that made a career on that myself. It's just that the manosphere, which I guess I'll just have you explain what that is now I'm going to do that later. But it's comprised of all different kinds of men who are in that space and I didn't know which one you were. That's the bottom line. And the reason is is because for several years I've had those folks some of those folks on my Facebook page and I've let them do their thing for years uninterrupted. I'm not a banner. I don't you know it's not who I am like come and you know as long as you're not cursing anybody out you can say what you feel. But over time it got really exhausting and Kelsey and I just started saying hey if you're just going to come on here and bash marriage and say don't get married don't get married don't get married which is what a lot of them did. I just said I gotta ban you because this is not helpful to my page. So I was so inundated for so long with those folks that I just didn't know how where you all fit in and you're not just you but you know all the men that you work with and what your what your stuff is all about. So let's start. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Number one number two I don't blame you at all for reaching out to Janice or anybody to try to verify who is this guy reaching out to me to speak at a live event in Florida. The marketing is super polarizing like it's not just a little bit polarizing. I would say it's a little bit more hardcore than Maga you know political stuff. It's nothing crazy or anything but it's it's pretty intense in the same vein right. It's in the same vein. Yeah it's in the same vein. I mean obviously inspired by it. It's not a political movement. It's not a political thing but it very there's so much going on politically in the country that the minute you associate even remotely with Maga stuff. It just riles people up. And then of course you know with feminism I view feminism as the religion of modern women and as the most dominant ideology in western civilization never mind America. So to so basically make women great again is like the union of like everything aggravating about Maga with everything that would rile up feminist and a huge population of women in America that are living in a very unusual time in history. America has incredible amount of wealth and military power and security policing and stuff. Things that I've never really existed in courts and all these things I've never existed from foreign history. So make women great again was this huge pushback. I view it as the probably the biggest pushback by far from a secular perspective to against feminism culturally that we've seen in a long time. And it's not even political really it's this cultural thing when we talk about relationships and self improvement. The social you know marital effects of feminism all kinds of different issues. One of the things I'm always struggling with over time. I've been an entrepreneur 15 years now is like what is my mission statement for the companies that operate. And it's always changing. I try to update it over time and not stay too stagnant. But I view one of the core missions of what I do is healing gender relations in the United States and the West. And make women great again is a push to do that. We hear a lot about race relations obviously in America. I'm not like I don't talk about these issues but not much anyway except on my Twitter maybe. But gender relations is something you don't hear about at all. It makes perfect sense based on our colloquial use of the terms colloquial. I'm saying that right. And make women great again is a huge push to do that. We do that for men too. We try to think about women how to be a man. But for women there's nothing even like that outside of a few authors like yourself. Janice DiMango, Allison Armstrong. I'm trying to basically unite not only all these mansplainers, these coaches and speakers, men talking to women, but the loosely organized group of women who don't like feminism, they're critical of it and they want to help women be better women. But that doesn't exist anywhere right now. There's nothing really but feminism. Feminism and feminism light. And that's why when I really got into studying who you were and what you were about and I listened to you. I mean the truth is Anthony, there's nothing you've said thus far that I've heard that I don't wholeheartedly agree with. That's the bottom line. And so after I looked into it, I had to separate myself from the bombastic way in which you speak because I said that at the opening. I told everybody we're not going to have too much of that cursing on this show but he does curse a lot. I told them that your style is very different and it gets attention. Of course, it's very different from mine. But at the end of the day, the message is the same and that's okay to have a different style and it doesn't freak me out. You mentioned the Manisphere as well. I'm not surprised you've had these issues. The Manisphere is a very diverse movement of men, both in terms of ideologies as different camps. I view it a quick explanation is like, I view it as like a circle and inside this giant circle, the Manisphere, we'll Spencer some good ideas for it too. He says he lives on the suburbs of the Manisphere or something like downtown. That's kind of funny. And when I said to my husband about how loose you are, loose-lipped you are, he's like, but that's how men talk to each other. So you have to understand. He's with the men talking. But I understand that when you're in front of women, you don't do the same. Don't talk quite the same way, so I appreciate that. Yeah, it feels natural and it feels appropriate. I don't think it's feminine for women to curse like a sailor. In private, it's a little bit different. But particularly in public, it's a big no-no. But anyway, the Manisphere of you is like this kind of circle and I've shown this, I visualize this on my speeches, some of them at 21 convention for men. It's a big circle. It's a big kind of loose organizing, almost like feminism, right? This kind of disorganized movement. But within the Manisphere, you have very distinct groups. You have men's rights activists, MRAs, which are very distinct. They haven't been going for decades, right? Even since the, let's say early 80s, Warren Farrell. When he broke off in feminism, Dr. Warren Farrell. You have McTow, which is more recent, probably the past 15 years that got going. Okay, I'm going to slow down. Have you say, tell, I know what you're saying, but make sure you, you're suggesting the acronyms that, yeah. McTow means men going their own way. This has been in the mainstream news even the past couple of years. CNN, Fox News, all kinds of stuff. And even authors maybe like yourself are trying to figure out Helen Smith's a good one too. Like why men go on strike, why are men exiting the dating marketplace, exiting the marriage marketplace. So there's McTow, men going their own way. There's men's rights. There's the old school pickup artists that were famous in the 2000s and early 2010s with the game, the pickup artists TV show and VH1. And then you have the red pill. They had their own kind of hybrid, I'd say like a hybrid of all three of the other ones of McTow, which are very friendly with them. You know, seduction or picking up women, pickup artists, and then men's rights. So you have these four different camps. The red pill one kind of got nuked on Reddit recently along with McTow. And that was their main grouping. There was about 300,000 of them that would organize there. So they're having trouble even to kind of continue to exist at this point. But anyway, the Manisphere I've used is a very positive thing with some bad actors in it. So excuse me, the Manisphere that encompasses all of these four groups. Yes. I would even say there's a new fifth one emerging in recent years that I've been trying to spearhead. And that's like this pro patriarchy, pro fatherhood element that you don't really see in men's rights. And even that was strictly like legal policy issues. So you see this kind of pro fatherhood, pro family message getting put into the Manisphere. And a lot of my speakers appreciate that, particularly the ones who are Christian and much more pro family. Because in the Manisphere, which has been going on since at least the 90s, as like an organized, loosely organized movement, there was a very little push for pro family, pro fatherhood issues. None of that. It was about picking up chicks, going your own way. Which is a whole different, I mean, they don't even have any common, the pickups and the fathers. I mean, they're doing different things. Well, and now if a father got out of an unhealthy marriage, there might be an opportunity for him to get back on the dating. That's important. But a lot of guys are not, a lot of men, either they're that or they're not. And if they're not that, they're still married. They want to have a better marriage. They want to be a better father for their kids. Even me, like an uncle, I'm not a father, but I listened to what the father stuff is. Because I have nephews now. And I want to be the best uncle I can for them. So who would have thought, right? The mission I have for the man is fear. What I outline it as is a positive future for men, boys and fathers. I'm very explicit in that, right? I have no problem with helping women. Obviously, that's a priority for me with an event I do. But I want to help men, boys and fathers explicitly and on purpose. And then we could talk about helping women and girls. But we live in a culture also that, you know, that's like beyond normal. I remember being at a hotel. This is like in 2017, 2018, even a couple of years ago. And there was this big card on like the front desk, the hotel. And it was about young girls. It could be anything they want and like all the stuff and, you know, donate money to help girls be whatever they want. And I'm like, when's the last time have I seen where little boys can be whatever they want? Like, why isn't, you know, both of this is both, I mean, there's more, you can debate, you know, the feminist issues behind this and stuff, but ignoring whatever that means long term, whatever the real implications of that are, whether they be pro girl, pro female. Why is there nothing for young boys? Why do you want to tell them they can be anything they want and be strong and courageous and virtuous and be creative and conquer the world? Why don't we do that? And of course, you know, you know what that is, you know, you know that feminism has taken over in terms of this idea that women have to have been subjugated for so long that it's time to focus exclusively on them to even out the playing field, which the whole narrative is false to begin with. So people have absorbed this and accept it. Or if they don't accept it, they don't know what to do. You know, like if you're standing there with your son, why wouldn't you say, because I do, you know, my husband does, this is how we raised our kids, but most people don't. And so there is no other place in my opinion for the pushback to come except from through parenting. I believe that that is the way to counteract the culture. It's the only way because you're not going to get it anywhere else. So parenting is huge. And it's different from the way that it was when you and I were growing up. And it's a taller order for parents. They shouldn't have to fight this narrative, but they're going to have to. Otherwise, their kids are going to have to come to it. You know, that's another thing that was interesting about when I, going back to when I said, I agree with everything, but you've said the fact that you're secular, the fact that you're coming at it from a secular place as am I, is something else that is similar with us and I have a lot of Christian followers. And I actually grew, I went to Catholic school, my husband's Catholic, our kids went to Catholic schools. So there's, I'm not in your boat in terms of you self describe as an atheist, but the reality is coming at the issues from a secular perspective. That's the same thing. And that's important to me because there's always, first of all, there are plenty of Christians who are doing what they're doing. And if you're in that camp, you've got the coverage there, you know, America doesn't have anything between, well, what if you don't identify with that, but you also don't buy all the feminist crap, where are you going to go? And that's really what I'm trying to fill and I think you are on the male side. Yeah, for sure. There's a huge gap and it's like a vacuum of nothing with for girls, it's even more obvious for boys too. Also being, having a secular platform like my events I built, it really opens a wide umbrella for people to interact. So there's atheists like myself and you have different denominations of Christianity. You sometimes have Jews or even some Muslims attending stuff. So it's a wide angle lens of people who are like pro-masculinity, pro-femininity, pro-family and they can debate, you know, they don't want to downplay. We had a really cool panel at the end of the event. Unfortunately, you missed it. And it was an atheist, Jack Donovan. It was a Mormon, Tanner Guzzi, who are really controversial among other Christians because Joseph Smith and all that. You had an Evangelical pastor, Michael Foster. Then you had an Orthodox Christian, Jeff Younger, who's famous for fighting for his son with trans issues. So you had like all these, these are really different denominations of Christianity and atheism and like, but they all got to talk about the differences between what they believe in and then how they can work together for, like Jack Donovan was the atheist and he's like, look, you guys are all Christians. You have very serious differences in what you believe, but at this point, we're going to lock the front door in our house. Like that's such serious things have gotten in this country and the muzzles and the mask and the zombie shots and stuff. That's why I really hate the whole issues that we deal with family dating, marriage, all of it. I hate it being labeled conservative. Yeah. It's not that I don't vote that way. It's that this is way bigger than that. There are plenty of feminist conservative women and plenty of non-feminist liberal women, believe it or not. It's really a separate cultural issue about the roles of women and men, marriage, family, parenting. It's just so separate. So I can't stand being type past in that political way. People try to do that to me too. And I'm like, man, I'm not what you think I am. My politics over the founding fathers and I'm Rand and that puts me in a very serious odds with all new conservatives, for example, all the rhinos, even a lot of more moderate conservatives. I don't believe what you believe. I'm 100% in favor of Second Amendment, First Amendment, all this stuff and they're not. They say they will, but when the push comes to shove, they have very little compromise or they give up or they sell out or whatever they're going to do. Automatic weapons is an easy one. What's that? Automatic weapons is an easy one politically for me. I don't think the government has any business telling you how many bullets come out of your gun when you pull the trigger, one or two or three conservatives don't get behind that. They're like, well, it's too radical, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, what would the founding fathers say? And they'd say you're a coward to put nicely. Thank you. I'm like, what is the polite word for this? I'm trying to hold your tongue there, but I did. But one more thing on this secular issue. I talk sometimes about common sense masculine and new common sense femininity, kind of like the founding fathers would, but also from a secular position and I'm not Christian anyway, but even if I was, I would build an American masculinity and an American femininity. And that doesn't exist right now. There isn't really, you have old school, Christians do some of the hardcore ones anyway. They'll promote biblical masculinity and biblical femininity and stuff, but even that's unusual a lot of the time, unfortunately. But I think this is an easy thing. Like we live in America, there's 300 something million people here. Why can't we have our own brand of masculinity and femininity that everyone can, no matter where you're born and how you're raised in that, like some positive element of that. I feel like it can be easily framed between in two camps and that is whether you truly believe that being male and female is a social construct, which is the narrative that feminist push or anybody in the left pushes or whether you absolutely believe in human nature and male and female nature. So it's either biology or ideology, which camper you in. And that to me crosses political barriers and religious barriers. That's really what it needs to be, biology or ideology, which one are you going to go to? Yeah, we're lost as a people. I'm strongly in favor of the biology camp. When I grew up in the 90s, that was a lot more normal. I'm 33 now, but when I grew up, there was two bathrooms, the whole bathroom system figured out and it wasn't complicated and nobody had a problem with it really. And now we don't even know a bathroom or maybe our phones and space travel and stuff and all this and we can't even figure out the bathrooms at this point. Like how pathetic is that? That's so confusing or lost. And the reason is, in my opinion, the reason is because the vast majority of people are too scared to push back against that very, very, very, very small minority, although very loud minority because they have all the power in terms of what they know to be true. They don't have the courage behind them and they need more people to help them, to not care. It's very difficult to go against, to go against the norm and when you do, you get a lot of flack and people just don't want to deal with that. So they quietly do their thing, which, okay, I get, but on the other hand, guess what, that's why they're successful because you're quiet. I got a lot of emails and DMs from guys on messages from surgeons and lawyers and doctors and stuff that follow me. They love what I do, whether I knew them growing up or not. You know, sometimes they grew up and I have friends and I were surgeons and doctors and stuff, and PAs and stuff. They love what I do, but they can't openly promote it. They'll tell me all day long. I had one guy who was a PA in Florida and he almost lost his job over sharing one of my Facebook posts. Just he didn't even like comment on it. He just shared it, which is an appropriate thing, which is why he said the HR policy kind of changed, but they yanked him into HR and all these nurses basically were following him on his Facebook and they complained about what I posted. Like Lee, I don't want to say his name, but obviously, but they're like, he posted this and they're like, look, you got to delete it or we got to let you go. I mean, that's where we're at as a country. This guy is a PA, almost a physician's assistant, almost a doctor. He can't even share something because this is really sick. Like this is controlling what people say, what people think. It's controlling like literally what you do with your fingers and your tongue. This madness. Here's another great example of that. Those years that I was on Fox News, a fair amount. I wrote for them for about five years and I did a lot of Fox news tips and I got this as much flak, not all the time, but a lot of the time from some of the women there. Wow. One woman there who was truly unbiased and the others got really upset. And so I dealt with just as much flak there than I would have it's like CNN. Wow. I'm bringing it up because prior to getting plugged in, you know, before the, before I'd go live with the host, the Fox producers behind the scene come out, come on in your ear and talk to you and make sure you're all okay. And for several years, I had many of them say, we love you, Suzanne. We love everything that you're saying. Wow. Yeah. So I'd have that and then I go flip. Now I'm on the air and now I got to be attacked by the host. So this is interesting because my point is that the people that you're seeing and hearing from are one way, but they're actually the minority. So for every one host who's acting that way, there's a hundred people behind the scenes in those control rooms who don't agree and you don't see them. Yeah. There's even more because I want to be the spokesperson for those quiet people in the control room. Yeah, my voice for the voiceless. Yeah. People do need to speak up a lot more, but it's, I mean, I get it. I mean, it's like in my buddy, I just told you the story of like, you know, he, he basically then had to take all these nurses off of his. He was so angry about it because he really loves what I do and he was like so aggravated that he had to do this. He's like either I delete this post it's sick. This is why everything that's happening in the country right now with Biden and the whole just everything is happening is because of that. Yeah. Because everyone's just being hushed and it's true. It's interesting to figure out to where it comes from. Like I'm a big, I'm a big fan of philosophy. So I do think there's pretty serious philosophic decay in the country. I think that was occurring before feminism for the Pentagon. Oh, he said climate change was, this came out today as a serious threat as China that feature the United States. And I'm like, man, this is like serious as serious of a threat as what? As China. Climate change is this theory. I don't want to get in the weeds on it, but like this is not a proven thing and the science is not settled. It's never settled. And it's very complex like trying to understand the weather and how we have the power that killed 54 million people not too long ago. They have an emperor, they call him the president, but he's an emperor. And I don't have any problem with Chinese people, but this government that operates the country is genocidal historically at the same government. And yeah, it's a very serious threat and climate change is a joke by comparison. But why did a leader get in the Pentagon who says this kind of stuff? I think feminism as George Carlin would say has, you know, commentators like myself. Absolutely. It doesn't even matter what political side you're on anymore. If you've been cowed by that group, you just have. It doesn't matter what side you're on. Yeah, I think feminism is basically the attempt to destroy not only masculine and new femininity, but the relationship between men and women and make everyone weak in their own in their own specific ways or their gender. And I don't think that's going to be the case in bad impulses. Yeah, yeah, definitely agree. Well, let's talk about this because I heard you say this in a podcast once I'm going to just quote you and we'll get into the whole feminism thing because this is where it this is how it happens. You said, quote, whatever your religion is in America, feminism dominates what they do. School, work, life, relationships, babies, family, family, it's all dictated by feminism. And obviously I agree wholeheartedly and I've been in it. I've been knee deep in it for 20 years. It's the message that it's the most important aspect of the message to get it away from this idea of all feminist means is women are equal to men, which is an absurd statement and means absolutely nothing. I thought it was about voting. I thought it was about voting rights. What happened there? It's the most people, though, don't understand the scope of how the feminist mentality or theory or whatever infiltrated into all those areas that you that you described in there, thereby getting people at every in every domain from birth to, you know, adulthood in their formative years. And you described it really well there, which is why I want to believe even beyond that. Including the night about all these single moms today, this epidemic of single motherhood that I think is squarely caused by feminism and its objects into politics. All these single mothers are going to end up single grandmothers and we're going to have a tidal wave of single grandmothers in the near future in the United States and the West, other Western nations. And that to me is a reflection of how far it's not just from that's not going to happen. Not even close for most women because they're all single moms in the thirties and twenties and thirties and forties. What is that going to end up? You're going to be single. You're not going to have a 50 anniversary. You're not going to have any anniversary when you're in your 70s because you're single and you've been single for 30 years. And it's not just single moms but we also have gray divorce, which is the thing now trend so that even if you stayed married for a long time, you're you're divorced in your, you know, 60 plus years, which means that you would still end up being a single as you say grandmother or grandfather. Basically people just living alone, I guess is a better way of putting it. And we are at that stage. We're at a critical point with respect to that now. But on my comment that you're quoting, I think I was directing it at women. It affects men at almost the same level, but I think women are even more affected by it. But I do believe exactly what you're quoting me on that feminism is the most dominant ideology. It's basically the religion of modern women. It dictates all their life, major life choices way more than anything even like Christianity, which is amazing. That's a 2000. Even when they don't know it, Anthony. That's right. Even when they don't know it. It's one thing to be a proud feminist and go after that life and whatever that means for you. It's it's the people who don't realize that they're living according to those values. Bingo. That's the most insidious and horrible part of this whole conversation. That's right. I completely agree. You know, if a girl is a radical or honest or open feminist, that's one issue. But that's a very small percent of the population in Britain. It's like 20 percent in America. It's probably like 15 percent. It's really, really low. Because that is negative connotations with it. Rightly so. Because a lot of them are just crazy and unhinged and they scream kill all men and all kinds of stupid stuff. But yeah, it's the offshoots into the rest of the culture that are massive, massive, massive. The military is dominated by feminism. The governments are dominated. Most governments are dominated by feminism. The entire federal government is dominated by those local governments, all your schools, all universities, most of your churches, the courts, all the statutes, the laws, legal precedent, all this stuff. It's feminism, feminism. We're drowning in feminism. The country is going to, I think feminism, either one of two things is going to die this century, America or feminism. That's where this is going. These two things are completely at odds with each other. They don't work. They are. This is the antithesis of our founding and it's antithesis of living in a free and rational society where there are men and women are women and we live in a free and open society where we can talk and debate and work out the issues and stuff. Feminism is antagonistic to all that, even free speech. I mean, are feminists in favor of free speech or against it? They're against it. They bully people and they promote all this dogma. That's why I was making fun of them with our marketing. Some of the blaze, some of the Chad guys talking about it, they were quoting us in the New York Post that didn't have a debate and admit that they're wrong. And anything? How do you answer? Have you had people, I mean, have you ever come up with a like a really clean, simple answer that doesn't go off on a tangent as to, you know, when the woman, when the average person says to you, but all feminism means is equal rights for women. Why would you be against that? I've actually talked about this in my speeches several times. It's a really good one. So basically, there's four main ways that I can quote myself correctly here, having worked this out previously for speeches. So you're saying equal rights is what feminism is, right? But equal rights is done. You said feminism is by equal rights. That's the hypothetical you're promoting here. Correct. Yeah. Well, what about equality? I mean, are you only a favorite of equal rights? What about equality between men and women beyond equal rights? That's what feminism is, Anthony. That's what it is about equality between men and women. That's not what you said. You said equal rights. So now it's two things. Equality goes well beyond equal rights. What about equality in a relationship? Are we equal in a relationship? That's not a political issue, right? There's no law for that for the most part, right? Well, I don't believe in equality between men and women, right? I think women like men who are stronger and superior to them in some many ways. So now you have equal rights. You have equality. What about women's empowerment? You're not a favorite of women's empowerment. I thought feminism is about women's empowerment, right? So you have at least three things now operating at the same time. You have female empowerment. You have women's... You're in favor of equal rights. You want equal rights for men too. But you're not a favorite of equal rights for men. So now you have women's rights, equal rights, equality and women's empowerment. Now you have this quadrant of four different issues that are all very different. So I mean equal rights and equality would be the closest related, but even that's significantly different. Female empowerment's not necessarily equal rights. It's helping little girls be whatever they want to be, right? Giving them money and it's a welfare for single moms and all this stuff, right? So it's a very... You know, these people are master manipulators and they're... I and Rand call this package dealing. They sell you one thing and they package it hidden, you know, secret with all the crap in it and a lot of it ends up being Marxism and communism and like really just bizarre anti-biology, anti-science stuff like now the bathroom problems we have and... Yeah. And they do it by controlling the language. So two words that you just used in there are... And this is always... The question I always have to ask when they bring it up is it depends on what you mean by equality. What's your definition... Which is basically what you were just saying. Yeah. What is your definition of equality? Same goes for the word empowerment. Well, what do you mean by empowerment? Because equality and empowerment on their own are great words but they've been completely demolished because they're now associated with quote-unquote women's rights. So you have to ask them what do you mean by equality? If I define equal, you know, I open this program with where men and women are equal in value but wildly different by nature. That's the tagline for this show. So equal in value or equal as in the same, as in they are interchangeable. And of course that, the latter is exactly what they've been pushing for for decades. And why there are so many problems between women and men and why marriage has fallen away and why they can't even get together dating-wise because the moment you think of them as interchangeable or the same, which is the equality that they mean, all bets are off. It's over. So there is no such thing. I agree. I've seen a lot of summers you probably know her, obviously. She has a great, I don't equity versus equity family. Yeah. But Chelsea calls it symmetrical. And it's really what they're after, making men and women symmetrical or identical, which is retarded. Like this is bizarre. Right. It's totally anti-science, anti-biology, anti-common sense. Like men and women are significantly substantially fundamentally different physically, psychologically, your whole life, like all of it. And if you're fighting that your whole life, you're never going to find, you're never going to have a relationship. It's never going to work. That's right. You're not, you're going to be alone if you believe, if you don't believe that. And of course, the average woman today doesn't believe that and doesn't even know she doesn't believe it. If you put her in, paint her into a corner, you know, she'll be like, you know, she'll just sort of stumble over herself because she knows what she's supposed to say and what she can't make sense of. The brainwashing is total. Like it's really serious stuff. It's probably, it's hardcore propaganda that will make you miserable and ruin your life. I mean, I mean, I'm not worried about the origins of it and who's behind pulling the strings. Oh, who cares? Right. What matters is that, like you can take a hundred million or a hundred million, but 25 million young women in their twenties and most of them believe the same feminist garbage that's going to ruin their life. They're going to go, you know, hoe it up on Tinder. They're going to bang all these guys. They're going to get the heart broken by, you know, 15 different guys named Chad. And then they're going to hit the wall 2930. They're going to be crying and tears are going to be angry. They're going to be bitter. They're going to go through a couple of plan Bs to go through an abortion and try to find some nice guy to settle down. It's not going to work because they've had this, they had this entitlement from hooking up with all these guys, you know, one night stands. Like it's just, it's just a train wreck. And it's really sad. And I think women in particular have a really hard time recovering from trauma. Men do as well, but men can also harden from it and become more masculine. Women, I think, in the mandatory way of the saying that masculinity is built, femininity is preserved and retained. So it's not really, you can basically, at best get it back to baseline, whereas men can build or be destroyed and become total douchebags. But end rant. I know you love end rant. You'll be happy to know that I was really into her in college, by the way. Loved it, loved. Oh, I said end rant. Long time. What's that? I said end rant. Oh. But I love on rant. I love on rant very, very much. I know you do. And I've been meaning to tell you that I loved her too in college. I was so into her. Yeah. It's been a long time since I've read that though. So I can't do any quoting like you probably can. Yeah. And then actually the sad thing is that's when I, by the way, in my coaching, that's really when I, that's when they call me is what you just said, 10 years down the line. And it's hard. I mean, it's legitimately hard because on the one hand, with what I do, I'm sort of stuck in a place where you need to pretty much be around the age of 30 to receive what I'm telling you. You know, to like be ready to hear it. At the same time, that's not the ideal time to hear it. Right. And so then, then you go, okay, I want to go down to the 22 year olds, right? Or the 20 year olds and 18 year olds even, but they're, but then they're not. Yes, that's the best time to get them, but they're not ready to hear it. Yep. So it's a real problem because I'm fighting against this much larger thing that, that they're getting bombarded with. And when everybody else is around, everybody else around is doing it. It's just really hard for them to, they want to, but it's just, it's not fun. It's just a hard, hard thing. So that's interesting. You bring this up because, you know, one of the main missions that 22 can mention is to make, it's to make, to make one great again, right? That's, that's its fundamental purpose. It's in the name. And it's, I mean it, like we need to do that. So, but I never expected from day one, even we've done it twice now for two years, right? We just did the second one with you and many others at it. I never thought we'd get a lot of young women to it. And I don't, I don't think it's possible or desirable. I don't really care. I didn't hear that. You don't, you didn't think you were going to get what? Young woman at the event. Oh. Yeah. There's this no way. Oh, you thought they'd be older. Yeah. So I'm not, you know, I'm not really worried about who attends it. What I want to do is film it. So we can fill in your speeches to reach younger women. That's the only way. There's no way to get 18 year old girls out to a young woman reaching there over years and years and years. It's going to take years and decades to fix this problem. It's a mess. It's a huge mess. Michael Foster, the pastor, spoke at the events. You met him probably at the events. He said that basically, you know, this is a generational problem. Like women, young girls today at 15, 20, 25, they've been brainwashed and fed this whole line of feminist thinking that dominates really what they believe and what they're going to do. And to turn this around, you'll make this, you'll have success in small bits as a coach, for women who want that kind of information. But for the most part, you have to reach millions of women and start educating young ones as best you can. Only way to do that is video and audio to an extent, podcasts and stuff. For sure. Actually, I haven't mentioned this to anybody yet in my podcast. I haven't announced it yet, but I'm in the middle of creating online courses for that exact reason. So that instead of just going one by one with the coaching, there will be a whole course where people can access all over the world. Yep. And it's going to be in video form and, you know, you don't have online courses go. So that's a big project. So sometime in sometime in 2022. But and again, most women, let's be honest, most of my clients are already married. Yeah. So. Yeah. So what I'm dealing with there is more like saving and helping saving the marriages and helping them be healthier, wrong, right? Healthier and strong as opposed to trying to tell you when you're 22 or 23, how to build a life. It's just, I mean, I want to do it all, but I can't do it all. So right now that's what's where my focus seems to be. But at any rate and I feel like this country is kind of divided up into two groups. People who get what we're talking about exactly, like they're in, they are tuned in, they're dialed in and people who have absolutely no idea what we're talking about. Yeah. And I was reminded this the other day when I was having coffee with a woman I know and I was telling her I offhandedly mentioned how men and boys were falling behind in our society and that they're not going to college at nearly the same rate as women. What a problem this is for relationships and marriage and families. She genuinely had no idea. Yep. And she's not dumb. That's not my point. She's actually quite the opposite. But just simply tuned in to other things. Yeah. To the point, so if somebody like that who's tuned in, but busy, isn't even aware of this. It was almost, it just took me back because I'm so involved in it. I can't imagine not knowing. Yeah. So I have to stop and remember, wait, the average person may not even know this. I have the same, the same. I've decided the experience. Yeah. I've been doing what I do for so long. I call them normies. They just don't, they have no idea. They still, they eat McDonald's, they just eat random stuff. They pay a little bit of attention to news and stuff. They have no idea about these other very serious cultural issues. They're not tuned in at all. They're genuinely ignorant. They're not stupid, usually. Sometimes they're stupid. Exactly. And they don't even realize how that's affecting their ability to, to, to create families and find them a good man or how that trickles down to them. And it has to be explained to them. Like, why does this matter to me? Yeah. I remember a medical once who's in early 20s and she didn't even know, she had a brother and a father and I think a sister too. I don't remember, but a couple of years ago, but she had no idea that men in this country were subject to selective service, to a draft. Had absolutely no idea. Like, and she was in her late 20s, born in America, raised in Florida like me and just had no idea that men could get drafted her brother, you know, and me when I was younger, my little brother, he could get drafted into the military against the will and you have to go fight in a war and die. Like Vietnam or, you know, anything else, you know, it's the last one with draft, but the selective service is still a thing and it recently has been changed on it. I'm pausing because I'm I guess it's because she's never experienced a war. Yeah, she was a little bit younger than people were drafted, right? Yeah. I mean, like, you know, my there hasn't been a draft since, since Vietnam, but it's like never been the news and so it's just never, I don't know, crossed her mind somehow. Yeah. Well, it made me think now, this is just a theory, but I think most millennial women, particularly if they've been the loosely feminist ones, they don't really know they're feminists, they're reflective of most young American women. They have no idea that men are subject to selective search to the draft. They have no idea. They just don't know. They have a brother. They still don't know, you know, and so this is, it was a shocking, like, how did you not know that? And I'm like, because people don't know a lot is the reality of it. Yeah. And it's unfortunate and sad, but that's kind of the case. And I think that has real implications for voting. And one of the things I've said, and I'll say it again, is that everything feminism has done, it's been positive. Everything they've done has been done in the dumbest way possible. All of it. The worst dumbest way possible. Woman getting the vote without being subject to a draft is point and cut, you know, cut and dry. That's, it's unequal. It's overtly unequal, explicitly unequal. It's been that way since day one. And it's terrible. It's horrible. I think it, it shifts voting patterns because women are not on the hook. They're not, they don't have skin in the game. If they vote in a presidential election, for example, that typically is, you know, a war no matter what, and they never have been a threat of going to war. And this, this influences how people think and how they vote, right? I know that I have a little brother and I have nephews now, and when I vote in elections, I'm worried about if they're going to get drafted or go to war someday because I don't want them to go, you know, this is, so it's an issue. But also I said, I should have, it's funny how a meme made once for it for this presentation. 2018, my speech, the future is still masculine. I called it. And I said that it was the death of equality, the death of it, not the birth of it, the death. It was the death of equality between rights and responsibilities. Up to that point, there was this balance and a lot of women didn't want to vote because they thought rightly so, that they would get drafted and they're like, I don't want to get screw voting, I don't want to get drafted because to that, to them, there was this like just equality. You're going to go fight and die against your will. You get to vote on the commander in chief. You get to vote on Congress. You decide that the country goes to war and they're like, what about the state? They even had, there were some states back then that even had that, I think, got to forget which ones, but I know I'm getting off in the weeds on it, but, I mean, we're way beyond that now, but yeah. So, okay. So, let's back up a little bit and tell people as you've mentioned a few times, I don't know that we've described it. What is your, so your website is 21 studios.com. I got a million of them, but that's the main one. Yeah. Okay. So what is the 21 convention Because, you know, you had to explain that to me when I came in. Well, we got the Patriarch Convention Tuna for fathers. So we have three events that we run, or four, technically, because 21 Summit is like an umbrella event that has multiple conventions in it. And where 21 come from? Well, let's begin from the start. Long, long ago in Orlando, Florida. When you were 17 years old. Yeah, I was 17. I was very young, 15 years ago now. So basically 21 Studios is the company I run. And it's kind of an umbrella for different conventions that operate in podcasts and brands. The University, the Redman Group, the Patriarch Convention, the 21 Convention, the 22 Convention, the Under-21 Convention. So let's wind the clock back to the very origin. You mentioned where did 21 come from? I get this question a lot. It came from the original name of the original event, the Under-21 Convention. Which is not even supposed to be a convention. It's supposed to be a meetup group. It was called the actual thread I made was organizing this and announcing it. It was called an Under-21 Meetup. So Under-21 Meetup. And quickly, some people suggested getting a hotel room, conference room, and stuff. And then someone's like, yeah, it's going to be an Under-21 Convention. And I'm like, yeah, sounds pretty sharp. So anyway, the name of 21 Studios and the 21 Convention and even the 22, which branched off from 21, that comes from the Under-21 Convention. Which was, I was in the Pickup Artist Community at that time, that wing of the Manisphere. There's only one I was familiar with at that point, familiar with. And it was basically a meetup group for young men in that space. They were neglected as a demographic, no one cared. I mean, if you're, these companies back then were making huge amounts of money in that industry. Millions of dollars a year sometimes in e-books and courses and bootcamps. These bootcamps would cost like $3,000 for a weekend, like all this stuff. And, you know, 18-year-old kids have no money. I mean, you're broke. You're a high school kid or a college kid. You got nothing. But in high school, me and my buddy had to split an e-book for the Mystery Method e-book. It was like $97 and we had to split it in half and we could barely afford it because we had like no money. We were kids. So I got to college. I was still 17 and just out of high school. And I thought about, I wanted to basically meet other guys in the, in the, that wing of the Manisphere and the Pickup Artist Community because I thought it would help me get better with women. And I thought a couple would be teaching guys too that were terrible. I was still terrible with women at that point, but I could at least get phone numbers and approach and some basic stuff, which for a guy who's had like, you know, who's a virgin and has zero social skills, that's like lightning to him. It's like night and day. And if you can teach him how to get a make out at a bar with some girl right, he's like, Oh my God, I'm like, it's life changing me. These guys, because they physically can't do these things. So I wanted to meet other guys who hopefully were better than me. And even if they weren't, that's fine. You know, it'd be a mix of people. And about one year later in July, 2007, at that point, I announced it in July, 2006, the event took place in Orlando at the same hotel you're at actually. It was a different ownership back then. We've been to many hotels since then, but it got going. And we had some major speakers come out to it. So we had about 80 guys show up. It was pretty big. And I made a hundred bucks for, you know, 12 months with the word, which is pretty good. A lot of people lose money in their first year of business. But it was just a hobby project. It wasn't supposed to be a business that it is now. I didn't even plan to do a second one. So the attendees at the end of the first one, the young guys, mostly it was the guys, there was a lot of guys who were teenagers like me, but a lot of guys in their late 20s, even 30s and stuff. One guy was there like in his 50s, you know, was kind of interested in the speakers and stuff. There's always been a mix, but it was pretty young back then, obviously. That was the focus. But the attendees, two of them came up and asked me like buddies or something, like, Hey, when's the next one? I want to go to the next one. They just assumed it was like a business that I was doing a repeating events. And I'm like, I'm like, uh, next year, same time. I just kind of blurted it out because I was so nervous. You know, still, that was my first time public speaking. The first time I did any public speaking was at my own event in front of like 80 people. It was terrifying. I opened the whole event. I have the video. I mean, I'm like, yeah. That's impressive. Thanks. Especially since you said you were shy. Yeah. This time, higher shy. Well, at that point, at that point, I had done a lot of cold approaching, at bars and stuff, and the beaches and malls. So I probably done like, I mean, I was like a machine back then. I probably done like 600 or 700 approaches or something like that, maybe more. At this point in my life, I've approached like 6,000 over 6,000 women. Even, you know, for a lot of that was before 2012. For years, I'd just go out, you know, a couple of nights a week, even every night sometimes, just talk to like dozens and dozens of people as many as I could. And the point, which does this get more comfortable with that because before you weren't? Yeah, that was the point. You're supposed to, they called a newbie mission back then. That was the official like name for it. And they would tell guys if they were terrible with women, like go talk to 500 women. It's going to take you six months or a year or longer. To get comfortable. But it makes you feel more comfortable because you desensitize to it. And you've, you know, you've repeated this process so many times. Yeah. Anything you do often enough, right? You're going to get more comfortable with it for sure. Okay. So when did, so you kept the 21, even though you're way over 21 now? Well, so a couple of years later in 2009, early 2009, I think it was, I was like, what do I call this event? Because I'm becoming, I'm soon going to be over 21. I was 20 at that point. And I was like, crap, what am I going to do? And I thought about calling it the under and over 21 convention, which is just terrible. It's not like vomit, word vomit, right? I'm like, I can't do that. That's just, I mean, it works, but it's horrible, right? So I was reading the name of the change actually came from a little bit, Tim Ferriss author, but mostly Seth Godin, another author, writes different, you know, productivity and books or whatever. And it was a book called The Purple Cow. And it's about making it, we're making a remarkable company, one makes them remarkable. And I knew that the 21, basically that book encouraged me to really keep the 21, not lose it. And the influence of Tim Ferriss is to simplify it. And so I had the idea to just chop the under out. And I wrote it, the 21 convention. I was like, good enough, man. That's like clean, simple. It makes people curious. They ask if it's like a blackjack convention, stuff like that a lot. Yeah. So the 21 convention is the one, is the annual gathering that I was just at. Well, 21 summit is the new annual gathering that includes the 21 convention and the 22 convention for women and the patriarch convention for men or for fathers. So we keep, we keep branching it out and making more events. But the main event that's most famous is 21 convention. And that's for men. So once I chopped out the under, I made it for all men over 18. And that was the explicit focus. I took a tagline from Atlas Shrugged by Anne Rand, some of the marketing. And one of the taglines I still use, it's actually in the background over here. It says a panorama event for life on earth as a man, free to the world. And that's a bit of a mouthful. But basically it's a comprehensive event for men over 18, all men, America and around the world. We've done international events too. And Poland, Sweden, England, Australia, all kinds of stuff. I've been really busy past 15 years. Yes, you have, my goodness. It's not like you have a day job. This is the job, right? This is the job. Since 2010, I took it full time. I dropped out of college. I was four years in. I failed, I failed how to start a business twice in a row. Only class I've ever failed. And I was the only student both semesters to actually own a business. And I was in the school paper repeatedly for it. And I failed how to start a business twice in a row. That is so funny. This is a sign. That is funny. Yeah. Yeah, very Steve Jobs year. A lot of famous billionaires. I'm not a billionaire, but a lot of famous entrepreneurs have been like that. They just don't. Yeah, absolutely. And I had no problem with the class. I just couldn't focus. Because I was always thinking about my own business because I loved it. It wasn't just a business. It was like it began. There's talking about it and then there's doing it. Yeah. You just wanted to do it. Yeah, I just wanted to do it. Yeah, exactly. You never talked about it. Yeah. Okay, so this is going to seem like it comes out of nowhere. But it came from your site. So it's not really out of nowhere. So who or what is the ideal man? Oh, yeah, it's good. A lot of that comes from my Rand. I don't use that terminology much these days. I did from about 2010 to 2016. But that's the vision of my Rand. And that to me is just being the best man that you can be by your own design and your own authorship. Authoring be the author of your own life. So it's not boundaryless or borderless. It doesn't mean you can be irrational. That's going to make you the best man you can be, nonsense. As an objectivist, I'm a firm believer in objective reality. I believe that nature to be commanded is to be obeyed. Like you're talking about for women and feminism. It's anti-nature. It's anti-feminine. It's anti-female. And then for the men, it's the same thing, right? So it's to be that man is to be the best man that you can be by your own design over a lifetime. And it's something that you never really achieved, but you should always push for and strive for. And it doesn't mean to be perfect. That's stupid. Nobody's perfect. No one's ever been perfect. No one's ever going to be perfect. But it's the goal to always maximize and push out as far as you can in every demand of life. And then to check yourself too. And to make sure you're the one making the choices and you're not being manipulated or undue, coerced or unduly influenced in ways you don't realize. Like with feminism being a sort of religion. And I guess that's, I mean, that's literally what I teach, what I've been doing for years is teaching people to think for themselves and to listen to their gut and to follow nature, not ideology. And that's, but my focus has been on women. And, okay, so you took that concept basically and wanted to broaden out for women as well, right? Which is where you're make women great again. Slogan came into being. And that was, so that was 2018, right? I announced it in late 2018. However, we own the 22 convention domain since 2015. Excuse me. So basically the 21 I realized over time, it looked kind of like it reminded me of the XY, chromosome set for men. You know, it's some basic, you know, similarity here. So I realized if I could do, people asked me for years to do a women's convention, not a lot, but every couple of months I would see something on YouTube or Facebook or something. And I was like, yeah, I should do a women's convention some day because people keep asking for it. But there was no like fire on my belly, so to speak. There was no impetus to really do it or, you know, no major impulse to, it's a hassle setting up a new convention, marketing it, promoting it, building it, the speakers, the lineup, the content, you know, what am I going to do with this? So I lacked that fire because I lacked a mission for it. I knew I didn't have it. And the minute I figured out make women great again, the minute I saw, I saw a hat that was similar to what the one I have now, like loosely similar. And I fell in love with it immediately. Let me just pause really quick because people who don't know this, so he has the red hat that Trump had with make America great again. It says make women great again. And so a lot of people, I have to visualize it to know. I got a lot of, I got like 40 of them now. We got make women cook again, make women fertile again, make women virgins again, make women breed again, make women mothers again. You can see the difference between you're trying to do this and my trying to do this. Right? That's the thing. Like people who always ask me about men, I'm like, well, I feel like men need to talk to men and women need to talk to women because I just feel like it lands better when it's coming from your own sex. So that's, I mean, depending on who you're talking to. So I mean, there are two ways of looking at that. You could say, well, wouldn't you want to hear from the men because they're the ones who you're trying to attract, right? So they should know what they're looking for. So there's that end of it. And then there's, you know, me as a woman telling a younger woman, this is not how to be a woman. This is probably going to benefit you more if this is your kind of thing. I want to make it clear. I think it's extremely important for older women to mentor younger women. And that, like for men, has been killed off in this country. For men, for example, there's a real, you know, fatherlessness is a huge issue, right? The court system and feminism and all this, the culture making buffoons, media and TV out of fathers, everybody's home or Simpson now, it's some loser, doofus at best. That's terrible for men and they need strong fathers who have real influence, not just fathers, but uncles and grandfathers and cousins, you know, like big brothers, like this is really important. Young women need that too. I think they also need good mansplaining and that's the real purpose of the mansplaining term. As funny as it is to play with, they use it, they mean it when they say it. It's a silence you. It's to cut off into neuter masculine voices in the West and in America so that fathers don't mansplain to their daughters, so that uncles and grandfathers don't have a say and an influence in a young girl's life, right? And those girls are then on top of that, not only is he mansplaining, they're told to like cut him out and not even seek advice in the first place, right? On dating and building a family and going to school or not, once you go to school, like career, like all this stuff. So that's terrible and women, they need both. They need to hear from women and then probably not their peers so much as older women. And like, you know, yourself and Genesee Amengo and all these women. Camille Pagula is another great one. Christina of Summers is okay. I mean, her have gone back and forth on Twitter a little bit. She's too pro-feminist for me and I don't like that at all. I think she needs to abandon her. She's trying to like save feminism, like you could just forget it, throw in the trash and burn it, like throw a match on it. We are not like minded in that respect, but she's done so much wonderful good that I just focused on that. She does, she does do a lot of good. I don't think it's knowledgeable at all. I think that's a waste of time. It's too far gone, but... Well, on that point though, I want to make it known that I'm considered the president of the Manisphere. This is a self-appointed title. It was a big deal in 2019 when I started it. The media, as I thought, would pick it up and they have, you know, gone after it too. So the man, the reason, there's a couple reasons I did that, but one of the main reasons is that I get concerned sometimes that the Manisphere will get collapse into this toxic sludge, like feminism is. And I wonder sometimes, how did feminism get so crazy and so radical and so vicious? And it didn't happen overnight. It took a long time and it took enough. It took people not speaking up and keeping an eye on the movement and steering it in a healthy, positive direction. So for them, it just went downhill over time till it got, it's super crazy now. I mean, we don't even have radical feminism. I call it hyper radical feminism. It's completely unhinged. And... Totally unhinged. Like I said, we can't even figure out the bathroom. Like that's where I had as a people. That's what feminism is done. Wouldn't even know a bathroom to go to. You know, Jeff Younger, my friend and one of our speakers, is trying to prevent his son from being transitioned into a girl. And the mother is a pediatrician in Texas. It's all over the news. I know this story. Yeah. I do know this story. He spoke at 22 and 21. The 22 ad was last minute. The woman requested him. He spoke with the father event, excuse me, the patriarch event. But it's sick. I mean, it's like, how does this even possible? And feminism is what makes it possible. Yeah. Oh, no question. Yeah. So tell everyone what happened last year with Good Morning Britain when you introduced the main women. Great again, Slogan. But let's pause for a minute. Take a quick listen. Are you going to teach us at this convention, Anthony Dream Johnson? What will I learn if I pay my $999 to turn up and be talked to by men about how to be a good woman? Because I think I might need some tips. Yeah. So the 22 convention. Yeah, come on out. Have a good time. Be a great time. So the 22 convention is a mansplaining event of the century. That's its destiny. It's coming up sooner than land of Florida this May. And I'm only one of the speakers. So I'm actually more like Obama, like a community organizer. And I'm organizing about 20 speakers to put together. And they're the top mansplainers in the world. I've been doing that my entire life. So tell me what you mansplained to me. So 17 years old for over 13 years. I'm quite an expert at being mansplained too. So just tell me what you teach me. My speech. So well, look, Pierce is a fantastic mansplainer. You're a good company. You're right. My speech at the convention, one of about 20. So I'm just one of 20 speakers at the event. Yeah. It's going to be on motherhood first. And I believe that feminists, when they present a choice to women between career and motherhood, it's a fake choice. It's not real because they're pushing an agenda behind it to push them to delay motherhood. And I think most women, not all, but most women will be happier motherhood first. I can't turn up to your lecture. I'm a mother with a successful career. I'm very happy for you. That's wonderful. I think you made a great choice. I think motherhood is awesome. You should have as many babies as you want and not get bullied by feminists for it. No, I am a feminist. Which many of them do now. I didn't listen to a problem and bullied by anybody. I had as many children as I wanted and I've got a career. So I'm not sure what you're... You might be confused. Are you telling me that was wrong? I think feminism, as Piers has been discussing or hinting at, I think feminism has collapsed into rampant sexist man-hating bigotry and female supremacism. I don't hate any of that. That's what these hashtags mean. Toxic masculinity. The future is female. I'm not female. Where's my future? So what was that like, Anthony? It was awesome. I actually had other TV interview invites from local Fox News and stuff like that. I turned them down. I don't have any hatred of local news but I really wanted to make sure that my first TV appearance was a major one. And I figured if I waited and I was patient that I would get one and sure as hell I got one. And you know... You could say sure, Anthony. Yeah. You could say sure. You wanted to say sure, shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I knew who Piers Morgan was. I mean, he's interviewed presidents and Supreme Court justices. I mean, he's a major news personality. I wasn't too familiar with Good Morning Britain a little bit. I've seen some of our speakers have been on there before, pickup artists and stuff. And they of course got the same kind of fights. They love drama. It's a morning show. Piers Morgan is known to do this kind of stuff. But no, I loved it. They picked me up in a Tesla like four or three in the morning to go to the... So it was really late at night too. People don't realize that like... No, I didn't know that. Well, I guess it would be. Because it's Britain, yeah. Morning there, yeah. Yeah, for Janice it wasn't too bad because she's on the west coast of Canada, I think. So it was late for her but it was like, I don't know, midnight or something. For me it was like 3.30 in the morning by the time I was live. At least you don't have to do makeup. Yeah, yeah, I don't do makeup, yeah. Yeah, so it was late and I was like, I took a nap. You know, I couldn't get to sleep in time. I took a shower, I had a little bit of coffee but I was just like so out of it. And when I get tired, I tried to be as focused as I could obviously for the show. But when I get tired, I get like super savage. I just drop... I have very few filters anyway. Like it's really difficult to not curse for example. I'm like really like slowly going through what I'm gonna say. But once they made me mad, I was like, nah, I'm done. Like screw these people, man. Thanks. You did great. You look like you'd been doing it for a long time. Yeah, well, speaking I think is what helped. One of our speakers was... He asked me, one of the Christian guys, he's like, how did you get... So he was very happy with how I did and he was very concerned that it would not... He was concerned it wouldn't go so well. Right, that they chew you up. They chew me up and that would be too bombastic and cursing. It kicked off or something, which just happens. But that didn't happen. They invited me back on. I almost went on a few months after that, later in the year. And then like the last... Like they canceled it like the day before because they had someone else who knows right off. Chris sketching crap. But it was awesome. And he asked me that he was like, how did you do so well with it? And I'm like, well, I had a few zingers that I had rehearsed. I knew I wanted... Things I wanted to say. Who cares what they're gonna ask me? I just want to say these things. For example, I called feminism a national security threat and I meant that and I'm serious. It's not like climate change. It's very real. And it's very obvious with things like military standards, for example. That's just like a... That's like elementary level issue with it. But it's real. And look at other nations. You know, look at our... Look at our marketing for our military that the commercials they put out versus ones from Russia and stuff. You gotta be kidding me. Like we're promoting... The CIA is promoting now like LGBTQ crap, alphabet crap. Yeah, right. It's just, it's insane. Like whether... You know, the CIA is not military, but these organizations should be very serious and have very serious missions and not be promoting like alphabet soup stuff just made up nonsense to these people. Right? The military, for example, I don't want to get into it, but anyway... Well, no, it's a real concern about our military and what's gonna happen. But... Or what is the same... But I think also what helped me with the interview was just talking to thousands and thousands of, you know, women at bars who have attitudes and will check you. Especially if they know you. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So I spent a long time as a pick apart. Yeah, I spent a long time as a pick apartist and, you know, I've had all kinds of curve balls throwing out me in conversation. Thousands of them. Yeah. And very heated environments that are loud and obnoxious and kind of... I don't even... Interesting. I didn't even drink for most of them. I was stone sober. So I was like 19. I didn't drink till I was 27. So I was approaching all these women of my teens and... Well, that gives you a real advantage if you're sober doing that and they're not. Yeah, but you're... Doesn't it? You can be more focused, but you're not as relaxed either. I mean, they call alcohol the social lubricant and there's a reason for that. And for men, it'll kind of boost your confidence to say things that you otherwise wouldn't say. So I had it basically in the pick apartist world. This is called doing things the hard way. Sober and usually alone, like a lone wolf. That was my preferred... I bring out one buddy or go by myself. And anyway, I think the combination of public speaking, which is very socially... A lot of social pressure and then just going up and talking to hot woman that I wanted to date, let's say. And these girls will throw in the pick apartist world, they call it like a bit shield and girls will throw up this wall if they don't know you and they think that you want something. And it's how to get past that and diffuse that. And I think with the news, especially with the women, the way they kept treating me and stuff and trying to talk over me, I would just... I just kept talking over them sometimes. They were so like... Yeah, no, I know. You did... I mean, it was great. I mean, it was impressive considering that was new for you. I mean, I did it for years and still hate it and still think the whole thing sucks because it's the end of the day. I had so much fun. I loved it. Yeah. I love Trump too, though. And I learned from Trump. I've studied Trump for years. Well, you're the type of people who should go on TV a lot. I can't stand it because it's just a game. It's just a game. And I hate playing games and I don't have enough time to explain what I mean. And it's just... I used to hate playing games but I learned how to be the best five-year-old in the room. And I think that's... I think they told me they loved it when I was on there that producers after. I'm sure they did. Because I was so... I'm sure they did because you did so great. They need... I mean, they need that. People don't really have so much media needs material. A lot of socializing, though, for example, with the woman I talked to for all these years. It's just game playing. I mean, it's... You might be in your 20s but it's a stupid game. It's one in the morning. People are kind of tipsy. Some girls looking at you. She likes you. You want to talk to her. But it's all just stupid games. And then her friends are cock-blocking you. We call it all this stuff. And it's all just like little chess games. Socializing and stuff. And that but the TV stuff is very similar to that. And I think... Very. Very. Very. Yeah. Yeah, game playing, yeah. They were accusing me where they were being... They were going to have to my personal dating life. I didn't even want to tell them like what was really going on in my life then. Like I was seeing multiple women and stuff. I'm like, this is not... Are you talking about on the show or... On the show. Pick up. On the show, yeah. Oh, they did. The full interview is like 20 minutes. On YouTube is only like eight minute clip. The full one is really interesting because they get... It gets way more... Oh, I've never seen the full one. I'll send you the full one, yeah. It's... Yeah, I don't think I've seen it. It was a long time. Yeah, it was 20 minutes. So the one on YouTube with me and Janice is eight minutes, but the full thing is 20, 19, or 20. Oh, yeah, I would like... It gets much more heated at the end. It gets really fun. Yeah, I call... I call Pierce Morgan... I'm like, why are you gonna be so judgy, man? You gotta be so judgy all the time. So nosy. Oh, of course they didn't use that. Oh, that's... Yeah. Oh, Nate, he's like... You call it... The girls are like, you're calling him judgy. Like in their British accent. And he goes... Yeah. He goes... He's like... He calls me dream. He's like, you have to be the most judgmental person we've ever had on the show. Put that on a court on your website. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's... Yeah. And speaking of dream, so dream... Anthony and Dream Johnson, tell everybody where that came from. It comes from the... Because you were not born with the middle name of Dream. That's right. Yeah, a few... A few people in my life have asked me if that's my real middle name and it's not... I've thought about changing it, but I'm gonna leave it alone. The media calls me Anthony and Dream Johnson anyway. They don't even question. They think it's my real name. Was it intended to separate you from all the Anthony and Johnson's of the world? Because it's such a plain name? No. Nope. What was it? Basically, it's from the Pickup Artist world again. Back in the 2000s, I found the Pickup Artist community in high school beginning in my senior year in 2005. And no matter what age you were back then, whether you were 17 or 35 or 50, you didn't go on the Pickup Artist forums or all these forums, right, with hundreds of thousands of people. You didn't put your real name, Anthony Johnson. Like, I'm from... It was very secret. It was a very taboo thing. It's underground society of Pickup Artists, like the game, the book that went best seller and stuff talked about. So you had to pick a name basically to a pseudonym. And it wasn't... I think it was actually... It was either the first or the second one I picked, but on this forum, it was the first one I picked and I saw that nobody was using it. And I even checked around. I kind of googled around. Like, is anyone else using this name in the whole community? And the closest was this guy named Dreamweaver, who was talked about in the game. But nobody actually used the name just Dream. And I loved it. And I think there's more to it than that, like Socrates, one of our speakers. Maybe you met him at the events. A very friendly guy. Oh, you'd love him. You'd love Socrates, yeah. His real name's Dan, not Socrates, obviously. But I was just to pick apart his name. But he thinks it appealed to me because I dream big and I dream often and I make my dreams happen. And so the name... A lot of people say, oh, you think every girl's dream, huh? And like, I mean, I'll absolutely embrace that. Of course I am. But that's not why I picked it. It appealed to me, I think, on a verbal level. I just liked it a lot. It was simple. And then later, I started using my real name pretty early on and that was unusual back then. So I would start using my real name in like late 2007 or early 2008 as a speaker at the conventions then. What do you mean by real? Just the Anthony Johnson without the dream? Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah. So Anthony Johnson without the dream and then I was like, I don't want to lose... It was difficult to decide kind of the name with the events, like what I want to call it, what I want to call myself as a speaker. And then someone just said one time, Anthony Dream Johnson, they just combined it all into one. And I'm like, yeah, that's awesome. My middle name's Paul, but I never use it. I don't care about it. So I'm like, I'll be Anthony Dream Johnson. And this will aggravate all these people I don't like. And it does. Susanna, her name is... What's her name? It's Susanna Reed is similar to you a little bit. That was on the Good Morning Britain. She was livid. She couldn't stop saying dream. Oh, I didn't know that was her name. Okay. Susanna... Sorry, go ahead. Yeah. Susanna, the co-host for the Piers Morgan show, yeah. I have her face in my... I can imagine her face, but I didn't know that was her name. She was, let's say, delighted with the name Dream. But so was Piers Morgan. They couldn't get enough of it. Oh, I know. And I never knew, you know, if or why I would get in the news, but it's really been helpful. Is it really... Yeah, I was going to say, it makes you stand out. And that's what, of course, helps for the media, for sure. And then I'm ever goes dream on top of that. So I mean, it's like a win-win-win, you know, a triple win. Okay. So last question for you. There is... There appears to be a lot of... Well, maybe this isn't the right word. I was going to say infighting among the men of the manosphere. And maybe that's not correct. So you can tell me. But how does a person cut through all that to figure out like... I guess we sort of touched on this at the beginning, but like, who's worth your... And I've heard you talk about this in other conversations. Like, how do you weed out the... I don't know what word you want to use. I don't want to be disparaging per se, but like... The frauds? Yeah, there you go. The frauds from the legit, you know, people are trying to make the world better. It's tough. I mean, I'll say this. There's a couple of different ways to look at it. You're asking from like, an individual perspective, someone finding this community, this kind of group of topics and speakers and ideas. You know, I would say actually take a pivot outside of anything to do with like, the internet and the manosphere and all that. Study cluster B personality disorders. In particular, I'd recommend a book by one of our speakers, retired FBI agent, Joe Navarro. He wrote a book called Dangerous Personalities. That's Dangerous Personalities. There's other books, too, on cluster B disorders. And these will teach you some of the manipulation tactics of people who have dangerous personalities, independent of these diagnosis, these disorders, right? Are they cluster B? Well, cluster B is a big one, but are they BPD, borderline? Are they HPD? Are they ASPD? Are they sociopath? Are they a narcissist? Like, that's all, that's all mumbo jumbo. Well, it's not all mumbo jumbo, but functionally, it's mumbo jumbo. It doesn't matter. What matters is that this person, is this person screwed up in the head and are they a charlatan? And do they have a disorder along with that? So how do you tell that from online? Online is a problem because it creates a barrier. Like, you were very skeptical of me before you got to talk to me on the phone, then you met me in person. But not because of you per se, but because of what I had experienced of what you're calling a maze for, although I didn't think of it that way, as just men online in general. And what I'd seen on my Facebook page, that's the reason. Yeah, that too. Yeah, and then the marketing, being bombastic and all that, right? Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, we're going to make women pregnant again. I mean, come on, this is... Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah. I love it. Definitely a little, yeah. I love it, I love it. But so I'll say this, like, you know, in general, it's healthy and useful to study dangerous personalities to watch out for the tactics they use to manipulate people, the way they hide, the way they conceal, the way they lie, the way they don't stop lying sometimes. That's a big trigger. That's a big symptom. Anybody with a cluster B disorder, usually a lot of them end up being compulsive pathological liars. They can't stop. They lie so consistently that it's their default for operating, even when it doesn't matter. And this is like, you know, there's a couple of guys that go after in the monastery for this. They don't stop. I mean, these people are, they just rampant liars or even little things that just don't matter. It doesn't make sense. The reason they do this is they're screwed up on the head. Like, why would you lie about something? So what do you do? How can you just associate with them? How do you do that? Well, if you're just someone looking for advice, you just don't follow them. I mean, just ignore them. You mean in your personal life? I guess, no, no, no. I mean, and they're... They cut ties. Like if they're in your community and creating... Oh, I go after them like Trump. I'm like, I'm really... Have you seen the memes I make? I'll send you some of the memes. No. You're in for a surprise. Oh, boy. I'm the meme master. And it's... I love to... I actually pay someone, my one of my main guys to make these memes. They're really good memes. Yeah. You'll love them. Might be a little nicer, but yeah. But I... So what I'm trying to do in the mannosphere, I think it's... I think that me and Will Spencer on his podcast talked about this. We talked about the frauds. I think that honor is like the most foundational element of masculinity in terms of the virtues of the four that we talk about strength, courage, mastery, and honor. If you don't have on... And you don't hear that word anymore, do you? You what? You never hear that word anymore. That's right. So among men, I think it's very important to value this and to uphold it and to... What I'm trying to do in the mannosphere is... The mannosphere is a group of men and fathers. And it should be, I think by default, a masculine space. Duh. It's a mannosphere for men. And that means it should be honorable and that we need to install a culture of honor in it that doesn't exist and never has. It's an old movement at this point. At least 25 years, even beyond that, if you consider the Warren Farrill's and stuff of the 80s and all that, like very old at this point, Will and I call that the proto-mannosphere before the more modern rendition of it. Anyway, though, I'm not combative. Don't you think... I fight these people. It's that. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, I fight these people on the open. I'll attack them if I need to, particularly if they attack me. I just... Gloves come off. One time last year, or early this year, this guy started attacking me. And I was like, okay, people are annoyed at how combative I get. Let me take a different turn in life and not attack them, just leave them alone. Just ignore him. I know he was kind of screwy, but I was like, let me just leave this guy alone. No, he attacked me again a month later. So a second time, to a large audience, 100,000 people, I was like, okay, we're done. Gloves are coming off. This guy's again his teeth knocked out on the internet. And I did. I put out a documentary. It's got over 110,000 views now. And it just demolished his life. I mean, caused him a lot of problems by exposing with facts and evidence the lies and manipulations this guy had been doing for a long time about his life. Lying about his wife, lying about the relationship, lying about her weight, her age. He took seven years off his wife's age. For example, for years, lying about it, all this kind of crazy stuff. Well, making fun of men who married older women. I mean, it was beyond hypocritical. But anyway, my theory is to instill a culture of honor in the man's sphere and to enforce that through mockery, through memes, through being combative, very Trumpish Trump style, you know, sleepy Joe, crooked Hillary, that kind of stuff. He's very influential to me beyond. I mean, I don't even agree with a lot of what he did politically. I don't. It doesn't really matter to me. I'm more interested in the culture that's falling apart because that to me will make politics irrelevant, right? If we don't have a family, they'll come just gonna die. So yeah, I look at what he does and I try to just do the best I can. And I think also that the man's sphere has gotten more. It's actually gotten a lot more frauds than it over time because it's grown. And I think this is natural for any movement. The more money's involved and the more people involved, you necessarily attract more frauds. And they prey on wounded men. That's those guys you see that are like negative and stuff. It's because they're being manipulated. They're hurt usually from a relationship and a screwed up culture and court system that treated them very unfairly. But then these frauds prey on that. They button push for money. And it's really sick. I try to fight it the best I can and encourage other leaders. Instead of trying to help them get improve their lives, like the Jordan Peterson one, which I think Jordan Peterson's rise to fame really, I mean, I don't know what you think, but brought the man's sphere much more into the light, don't you? It was always there, but once he came along, wow, I mean, YouTube. I consider him like man's sphere light. But he talks about a lot of same issues, for sure. That's what I call man's sphere light. Yeah. Well, no, he's not bombastic either. Yeah. Stylus. Yeah. But no, I mean, it revealed the huge gap that the man's sphere is filling not as an individual public speaker like Jordan Peterson or thinker, but as a community and a movement. And it's very serious and very important. Some guys call it the men's movement, but I don't think that really sticks the same way feminism isn't known really as the women's movement. It's known as feminism. No. And yeah, well, it should be because it's not the women's movement. It was the feminist movement. When they said feminist and tried to call it the women's movement, it made it sound like any woman in the right mind would be a feminist. Like it's a women's movement. Like all women are going to do this. And that's why if you don't think like that, you feel like you're there's something wrong with you. It was very, very, what's the word? Manipulative. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to make the manisphere the opposite of manipulative. So I'm trying to make it a very good, positive place for men. And it's a difficult battle. It's a fight. There's money involved. There's people involved. History involved. There's a future involved. It's a battle for personalities and for space and mind share in the community who's going to lead it and stuff. My, you know, I'm very controversial even in the man's sphere because of the president thing. There's never been a formal leader of the man's sphere nor has anyone ever tried. The fact that I've been doing that now for a couple of years and the media recognized it really makes people angry in my community because it makes me the leader of it in a way that they can't really, if they say I'm not the president, which the one guy I made fun of with that documentary, I exposed him, he tried to impeach me at his own conference. That's the first thing you did is we need to impeach the president. And so, which is hysterical to me because all it does is reinforce the position as president. So it's just little games, but it actually works really well. Five year olds have a lot of wisdom that people don't realize. They're very, like, they're very, they can be very immature, but they can be very blunt, right? They can be very unbelievably honest, these little kids, because they're so naive about the world, but that can be weaponized into like what I do now with memes and stuff and little titles and documentaries and all kinds of stuff. You know, people, there's an old saying that, I don't know if I'm rancid or who, but, you know, communists hate comedy. They hate humor. They hate laughter. They really do because it can be used to expose them, right? And to show how ridiculous the things they believe are in anti-life and anti-freedom. And the memes do that in much the same way. They expose, I don't know if I was going with the sauce train of thought, but anyway, comedy is important. I'll send you the memes. Yeah, send me the memes. All right, Anthony, this has been a great conversation. Really appreciate your coming on and just been great getting to know you the last few months. Thanks. And I look forward to all that stuff that's coming out soon from the conference. I need to interview my family. Oh, yeah, I will do that for sure. You're probably already starting to have to worry about next year's conference. Almost, almost. I reach out to some hotels, so try to get that going early or as soon as the better. All right. Well, we will talk again for sure. Okay. Thanks for the show. I appreciate it. No problem. Thanks, Anthony. And that ends this hour of the Suzanne Venker show. Before you leave us, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review at Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. If you've done that already or if you can't leave a review on your podcast player for some reason, please consider sharing the show with a friend or a family member. Word of mouth is the primary way we get the word out about the Suzanne Venker show. Thanks for listening, everyone. Have a great week.