 Hi, this is Yvonne and this is a service design show and this is episode 199. The guest joining us today on the show is Yvonne Tran. Yvonne is currently the director of product design at The New York Times. Now some say that design is currently going through a crash or maybe even a crisis. Now whether or not that label is accurate it's a fact that we've been seeing a lot of layoffs happening lately and highly respected agencies are closing down studios where in the past years it was all about growth. So crisis or not there's definitely something going on. Yvonne's perspective is that the design industry is going through a major shift. In the last decade we've invested heavily in teaching people around the world how to fish. Many non-designers were exposed to the basic concepts of the design process and the design language surrounding it. It's great that today there's much more recognition than there was for design let's say 10 years ago and that more and more people understand and speak the language of design. But this also begs the question what does this mean for you as a design professional now that design has been more democratized? Is there still a meaningful role you can play and if so in which areas can you add the most value? Well that's precisely what we're going to explore in today's conversation with Yvonne. We'll look into where design is moving away from and heading towards. We'll discuss the three roles where design professionals can continue to add tremendous value in the future and explore what we can do to help our clients also grow to the next design maturity stage. One part of the conversation that I found especially intriguing was when Yvonne shared the story about how we by slowing things down deliberately could actually be of great value to our organizations even though slowing things down feels very unnatural and uncomfortable at first. I'm curious about your take on this perspective so please join me for the inspiring conversation with Yvonne and as always I'll catch you at the end for the closing reflections. My name is Marc Fontaine and you're listening to the service design show. Welcome to the show Yvonne. Hey Marc good to be here. Episode 199 how does that feel? It feels kind of historic I'm so grateful to be here to be part of your last one before you reached 200. Before we reached 200 just the number but then again yeah it's been running for quite a while and happy that you're on for this special episode. Yvonne besides having a really Dutch name we'd love to know a little bit more about you and what you do these days. Could you give us 30 second intro into who you are? Yeah of course. I'm currently the product design director at the New York Times and I manage a team of product designers and service designers to do work on internal tools to help our customers as well as to help our team but previously I kind of had like a winding kind of career path all of it related to being able to tell stories in different ways. Start-up in non-profit was really into mission-driven work and then moved into you know moved got into kind of design strategy service design more formally and so I have a combination of working in consulting mostly in you know with big innovation company or innovation teams and companies as well as like in government and then wanted to go in-house because I really wanted to really see the follow through of the impact of the work. And you mentioned that you had a wine you wrote in your career and at some point you also stumbled upon service design I always like to ask this question do you remember when you first sort of heard about service design? I think that like you know I first heard about service design when I was in my design MBA program and I realized that design and service design aligned so much with the way I work and the values I have already developed independently of me understanding the more formal concepts and I was already doing a lot of that in my work you know like the whole participatory research when I was in non-profit work user research just it feels natural you know it feels very logical to be able to talk to the people being affected by the problem to kind of create solutions for them so I just remember feeling like wow I cannot believe there's a discipline out there that already aligns to what how I work you know and I didn't have to like squeeze it into you know into the way that my value system was so so that was that was pretty great and meeting other service designers that you know everybody naturally had a strategic mindset which was really fun to kind of be able to work with really really smart people all the time. Yeah I think a lot of us can relate to how you got into service design at some point you sort of know oh this is something we can actually look up on Google and there are people who do this thanks thanks for sharing Yvonne we have a lightning round five questions I'm always playing around with these questions to figure out which ones work and which ones are interesting to get to know you you haven't prepared yet which is good first thing that comes to your mind are you ready yes I am here cool cool what's the food that makes you think of home think of home um my mom makes this really good like chicken noodle soup and in in Vietnamese it's called foga and it's like it's kind of like Vietnamese noodle beef noodle soup if you're familiar with it but it's like chicken and so it's very hearty clear broth it's very homey so it makes me think of home a lot we're going to up the game a little bit with the next question what's one thing you wish you would have known soon in life or in life in life that you know not to take the major at an undergraduate very seriously and just do what makes you enjoy learning and get good grades because you do not know what the future holds because there are jobs out there and careers out there that you could not conceive of as like a 17 18 year old um so so I guess that's something that I sometimes think about around uh around just the time spent kind of in school and trying to find the perfect career it's at such a young age good advice um speaking talking about life advice what's a book is there a book that has impacted your life oh that's a lot of books i'm a big reader um I read a lot of fiction um but recently um I've been uh I've been reading um reading sweetgrass by Robin walk uh Kimmer um and she's this indigenous scientist um and she just has a very different way of looking at the world right from from that kind of more of a nature ecological life kind of lens um about everything on earth and it kind of kind of really mixes it with the western you know kind of science that she has learned and been trained in so yeah I feel like the that book really was beginning to kind of change the world that changed the way I see like and relate to like everything from rocks to deer to like you know that it's not so human centric all the time all right uh that book has been recommended a few times already on the show so amazing yeah we need to check it out uh question number four maybe an easy one who's someone you'd like to take out for lunch I think if she was alive the author Octavia Butler um she writes a lot of speculative fiction and she has a amazing world building in the way that she um thinks about the world from a um a lens that's not so male all the time um in speculative fiction um and has really just amazing ways of also looking at the world and thinking about the world um so so yeah I mean she died very young I feel like she died in her 50s so it'd be great to be able to have lunch with her and to kind of talk to her about her writing you're almost there fifth and final question what do you feel our world needs more I think right now the world needs a lot more connection to each other um the humanity I think in each other um and to remember that and to see that um in people and not just on screens noted all right thank you and good for you making it to the end of this rapid fire lightning round um Yvonne you wanted to address and discuss the topic of the relationship between design and designers and innovation how so why is that a topic that's on your mind I got very familiar with this innovation space um when I was in grad school about 10 to 12 10 to 12 years ago in San Francisco so this was the advent of Lyft uber all these big companies coming out of the of California specifically San Francisco and I got exposed to a lot of it and everybody you know was saying all these words right design thinking was still a buzzword it was paired up with innovation often times lean innovation like so many books so many things written about it and you know I feel like I was like oh what is this about kind of got enchanted by by all the all the buzz um and I got an opportunity to work in the mayor's office of civic innovation in San Francisco as an innovation fellow and um for you know when I was in school and just kind of saw how that worked in government and I saw how it worked in companies you know while I was being exposed at school and and then I ended up working for a boutique consulting agency um that worked with innovation teams like Nike um like Cox like um and so I also got exposed from the corporate like realm of like how they see innovation um and then I also got to manage a digital and innovation team when I was at a mortgage finance company um my last job and I guess all to say like you know we talked about at the time as design thinking service design as like one of the keys to innovation and it was always under the framework of of um of kind of like what the corporate model was you know which was really to find new products new services but at the end of the day it was it was really about you know creating different types of revenue streams and so uh what I was interested in is like seeing like oh what was actually the role of the designer in this process you know um and and what what does design thinking kind of promise um or and design what did it promise and and did it fulfill its promise so I was just kind of interested in that you know um and I think also what I've observed just personally observed in the last I don't know five years to maybe eight years is that the word innovation and innovation teams are not as prevalent as it used to be it's you know in the last like yeah maybe the last five years um in the team that I was supporting when I was over at my last company and at a mortgage finance company they dissolved that team you know um and so and then with then with IDEO recently laying off like a bunch of folks in the last few years closing doors of very iconic offices in Palo Alto in New York like it's just been really interesting to kind of see where the industry is going um and how companies and organizations are seeing the role of quote innovation and therefore a lot of times the role of design thinking and design um and so I just wanted to kind of explore that a little bit more and to be like well what what is the role now where does that where does that live right um and maybe it's not called innovation in the way that we were thinking about it 10 years ago there's so much to unpack already let's um let's start with you mentioned the promise of design and design thinking what do you feel was the promise would do the quote unquote we promise I and you know I feel like coming from consulting to consulting promise is a lot of things um you know if you're trying to hire a consulting company I I think in general you know what the promise was was if you have a designer to bring the user or the people's voice into the process right um strategize you generate some kind of ideas and it's going to lead to some kind of innovation promise land you know like just we say it all the time and and to certain extent it's still true right from a process standpoint like trust the process trust the process right it's just like don't worry it's very overwhelming right now and it's very ambiguous but you know at the end we're we're gonna it's gonna happen don't worry and and at the end did it you know like was the problem statement that we were trying to solve and refine for was that the actual problem because a lot of times what these companies are looking for are brand new ways to make money you know and it doesn't always need to be a transformational thing and and and sometimes it's not even always like a a a product service to pain point match right and how high is the actual pain point or are we kind of fabricating it because it fits within the portfolio you know um and so I guess you know my kind of big question around these like broken promises really you know and I think this is also why companies have been scaling back on quote innovation have been eliminating their design education programs or design thinking there's so many articles written right by like fast company and others design thinking is dead and blah blah blah you know um and and so then when you peel back all of that you know how many releases or tests or pilots really did feel innovative and and I know that a lot of it is this like well we have to fail fast and we got to just do a lot and increase the quantity and I guess for me it's like I was also taught that right like I think that you know testing it decreases risk which I do truly believe but I'm also like what is the content of these quote innovative ideas that we're testing you know what is the quality of it really and what is the you know and and so um I I think that like you know one kind of story that really sticks my mind to this day was when I was consulting with a telecommunications company really big one and they hired a bunch of us um and at the kickoff one of the one of the executives kicked off this big room full of his team lots of people was just like I'm so excited let's make the next billion dollars and and it's and I just remember thinking like wow like I get it I know that there's a bottom line you know we're in this like system right capitalist system making money but that was kind of the big motivating closing sentence that he gave to his team um and and so then I think that like innovation has become a misnomer for a new or more effective revenue streams versus defining it as a true product or service fit to a pain point you know to really like improve lives do you feel that that's currently shifting or do we need to revise that like okay so what does that what's the impact on us right I think we have to really look past the sexiness of innovation you know from from 10 years ago you know and that has trickled down to even the most traditional companies now um and kind of like remove that sheen and really think about what is quote innovation really mean and it just really means a different way of thinking or a different way of doing something and I personally feel and I always thought this even when I was in the space that like what does it make other people who work in these places if there's a team dedicated to innovation you know are they chopped liver are they just people who are not originators you know original thinkers like no right there shouldn't be one team you know that that is dedicated thinking about new things and so I think that in terms of of where we are now or where I think we are is that I think we need to be able to like take that away take that like sheen that shininess away and really look at that innovation often is is making mark pivots or refinements to existing products and services like we as humans build on top of each other you know and and whether we're redesigning a service or redesigning like a product it really rarely is a transformational product you know even if it feels transformational like the way that uber and lift and door dash and all this stuff felt that way but the core content is is the same you know it's existed for many many many decades and generations um and and so I think that like you know even looking at the most decorated design company apple with the other than you know they've designed some really innovative products like the macintosh mouse but I think in recent memory a lot of their innovations have happened over existing products of really rethinking that particular experience but the content of it has been there for a very long time um and so and so I think that like you know it kind of gets into me thinking about like what is the role of the designer you know a little bit more um about like where innovation is now you know and I talked about ideo um and I it is you know I think about like they are the most popular right they've really been able to they're the most famous right tim brown the books the talks like the workshops all that kinds of stuff um and with with the kind of like where they are company right now um you know the current ceo says that a lot of it's due to you know product project budgets pandemic and the widespread adoption of design thinking um and they essentially built a business of teaching others how to fish and thus made them all fishermen's who don't need one anymore and I actually think that's a really good thing you know I think that you know even though it's not a great business model essentially eventually for them and that they need to figure out how to successfully pivot um but it's a good thing because design thinking just like innovation should be accessible to all as like a problem solving process um so you know so that kind of makes me think like well if everyone does know design thinking because you know they even have certification programs now out there with like luma and like all these other kind of programs which um is a great starter I don't know if it necessarily makes you like automatically like a service designer you know um but like so if everyone can do this design thinking well what is the role of a designer then that kind of makes me think about that you know because I think designers have in the past been seen as like these um these catalysts right that start these processes that provide a catalyst to quote innovation or to at least a different way of thinking and maybe that's what we need to be humbled about is that if we have the expectations to create transformational things services products then maybe that is not where we need to start from I think we need to be a bit more humbled and be like and be from a learner in a growing mindset of like well what are we actually trying to do and what are we actually trying to solve and how are we changing the way even think about this particular problem and not kind of promise I guess you know that there is going to be something you know very I don't know just amazing and sexy at the end yeah before we go into specifics I'm just really curious to to your personal story here out of all the things that you could be thinking about right now and all the challenges that we have in our world what makes this relevant to you why why is this on your mind right I guess you know I recently had a conversation um with one of our our kind of mutual friends uh Grace and about just this observation around innovation you know because you know she was talking about some strategic foresight and other kinds of more firms like really smaller boutique firms I was doing kind of this like futurist innovation design kind of work a lot of them were closing down and that just kind of made me reflect um and reflect on like where I am in my career and I'm not in a formal innovation role or anything I don't think there's even that role at my company at all or team um but then maybe reflect on like my past roles and maybe think about like how do we value the work that we do how do we value the design work that we do when when there are not a lot of sexy labels you know um you know to that um and are we also doing what we think are the most important work you know so I guess it was kind of encapsulating that where you know I gravitate towards work that I'm excited about and at the time and in my career it was in this like innovation space because it was a lot about new ideas new services new ways of thinking new experiences that we're creating um and that was really exciting to me um and now I guess I'm a place too in my thinking and in my career where I just want to be able to create really quality experiences you know that are inclusive and accessible um and that at the end of the day may not feel traditionally sexy but it really changes lives so um while you were sharing this I was reflecting on what the paradigm that I've been seeing the shift and the thing that came to my mind is that maybe 10 years ago 15 years ago um maybe even five years ago design and design thinking was in the man because it was different just for the sake of being different doing things in a in a new way like you said sexy I think just the fact that it was different made it attractive that is changing that is shifting being different isn't uh isn't adding the value that we're looking for and I'm also seeing the same shift as you are that many of the service design professionals I speak to don't have a innovation role specifically don't have a service design role they're just part of the organization and contributing in different ways that aren't about innovating but are actually about doing better things and doing things better so yeah uh yeah what do you what do you think about that mark I think it's a great great uh development um the moment things things move out of the space of new innovative sexy and into the mundane ordinary that's a really good that's a really good thing because then it becomes uh like common household what's the what's the right word I'm looking for here it becomes it it's accepted and it it becomes a default practice and you know I can't say that it's happening on a on the scale that I wish it was but it's definitely shifting yeah so to get back to your comment about this if in the early days of design and design thinking it was about doing things in a different way if that was the value proposition and that's not going to cut it anymore and I don't think designers were the ones who were pushing that message it was really a demand from business to innovate um to have a message to communicate marketing but if that's moving to something else what is our new role as as a as a design community one I I agree with you I think that when things become part of the everyday practice um that's what we all wanted right you know like to have this design mindset to for everyone to have that product business executives and that we were not the only lone people in the room just like yelling and and trying to convince everyone um that this is the right thing to do um so it's great it's it's really amazing in that way where people are just naturally thinking about users even engineers you know wanting to hear about user feedback now and not just think that they know what's best I heard a lot of comments in my career about stakeholders saying it's common sense we don't need to do research it's just common sense and us just trying not to tear our hair out about that so it is really great um I and and I also think too what's really been amazing for me to back up a little bit before I talk about what I think the role of designers are role of design is that service design has now become this integral part of all design most if not all design practices right um you know I'm I'm I'm in like a product design group now and focus on creating and developing software um when before I was much more in the research and strategy space um developing products that were not related to the digital products um and it's been an interesting and amazing to see that a lot of our product designers you know at the New York Times use service design regularly on a deep deep level too from folks who are mid-level all the way up to very principal you know designers um are using different forms of service design to really push forth because the systems in in the ecosystem and the world we live in is so complex now and even for example at last year and was hiring principal service designers as full-time roles you know where I think a lot of these technology companies which I feel like in the past like 10 years ago they didn't even know what that was I mean they almost didn't even know what design thinking was so I mean you know so I think now the maturity of how designers and leaders and design leaders have pushed and pushed um you know and and where it now becomes an ambiguous part of our product our career framework that's part of our product design career framework service design you know and and so I think that like that's a really great thing and it's like really amazing to see how um you know how diverse and how deep that we're getting um in in design um and and so I think that like you know product designer service designer design strategist like all these kinds of folks I feel like essentially for me the world designer is a kind of like threefold one is kind of like diving first um head first in a complexity um and the abstract and to pull out tangible actual direction I think we can kind of like I've understood that the second is is obviously very important to take all the stakeholders with you on the ride including teaching them all how to fish so we can all fish one of our our kind of low-key jokes um that I have with my colleagues is that like you know um that they begin because there's not enough designers there's not enough service designers to go around there's not enough designers to go around really you know it's underfunded um like most places and so we think about what if the product managers or you know our stakeholders start doing and running their own design projects and we just kind of help them you know because there's not enough of us to go around and so then there's always constant like tension about resourcing and so I still think it's a good thing because if they start thinking about it in that way that also means it makes our job easier to be honest because we can actually start asking more nuanced questions um deal with much more complex issues and not just try to teach them what a design process is and why we need to do research and all these basic things that I think we've been fighting for for a long time um and so I think that like it's really important as part of the process that takes stakeholders with you um and then the last thing which I think is something that I thought about a lot more which is is the slow things down to build better services and products and I know the initial reaction and even for me when I thought about this my initial reaction was like that feels antithetical to what product ones and what business ones like we're trying to ship things we're trying to release things like why would you want to say that that's literally what we've been fighting against right I've gotten so much in my career of like why do you need so much time to do this research why do you need so much time to do the synthesis like can you just turn this around in two weeks as project like I don't understand why it's so hard you talk to like 10 people you know um and we're always trying to fight against that right being like okay we're trying to move as fast as we can but I guess what I'm I'm really saying and clarifying is that the the point of a designer is not to stop progress or innovation or to be a blocker but I see a designer's role is to stop and ask the crucial questions you know like why are we doing this now what is the actual business value do we actually need to do this like right now right now like what is the actual what what is why is there a hurry you know why do we need to move so fast have we included all the voices that we need to actually in the process and have we considered what we're building is inclusive and accessible so this actually makes me think a lot about the like button you know when we when I'm talking about slowing down and asking questions is when the team that worked on this really fun new feature that increased engagement by like a thousand you know by a hundred times I'm sure based on the speed and based on the obviously the company who released it they were moving very fast the team doesn't necessarily think about the implications down the line of its impact on the suicide rate of teenage girls right like whoo heady stuff like it's it's not something that's like very naturally related but at the same time it it's not that far off in terms of thinking about what the ramifications are when yes it's about increasing engagement but what does it actually mean in terms of from a from a psychological standpoint from a societal standpoint right of of this mass platform seeing how many likes meaning you're more popular is that you know what are the ethical questions there and I just feel like just like in science right just because we can build it and we can do it doesn't mean we should and I just strongly feel like as designers we need to be asking these questions because we are the ones oftentimes thinking ahead one of the few folks on the team thinking ahead whether you're a product designer or a service designer or doing both all of it together is that that's just the function of our process of like we just need to think ahead so that we are able to like have something for engineers to work on or think ahead as if we're doing a service design project to be like what are the ideal experiences that we're designing for all these different things that we're the ones asking the question so I think that we really need to take that very seriously and be able to ask these questions because something as small as like just a little like button it's not that big of a deal it's going to increase engagement we're going to win all these awards all this stuff but like what are the actual implications of that you know from a from a people kind of perspective and so I guess that's kind of like what I'm kind of thinking about is that designers are the check and balance to the whole move fast and break things you know ethos and and so so you know I think that like it's important to take that into consideration is to be able to like pause and work on your persuasion and communication skills to also have your stakeholders be with you to take a breath and to really evaluate like why are we kind of working on this and I know that it's not applicable and it's really hard to do in most all cases but I I do think for some of these more you know bigger features bigger releases thinking about this is kind of crucial I think it's the exact title of the episode we had a few episodes ago with George a about whether or not we should do things instead of just asking the question can we do it should we do it this is a much harder sell compared to selling a different way of working that's fun creative playful so much easier selling the fact that we're now stepping into the role of the conscious of the organization or and that we potentially might slow things down you know that that's it's it's not easy to communicate that message it was it was easier 10 years ago 15 years ago a look at where we are right now right we sort of have to press a reset button and I think realign the expectations that we have as a design community of the value that we bring and also realign the expectations of the people who are hiring us yeah that is that's always been the job though mark right even when it was new and now getting into much more of a deeper maturity as design has always been the work that and and to be honest I've in the past kind of resented that job you know because I'm a bit impatient um but that's part of the whole teaching them all how to fish or at least knowing visually how to do it if they themselves are not doing it themselves um and and I think now stepping into a role where I think that from our previous kind of like conversation around it being ubiquitous design you know um that mostly everybody or most executives have now heard of design or at least design thinking um and and then now there are more you know executive design roles even you know um which is an indication of where we're at um as design leaders um yeah I I also I just think that like how corporations are operating you know I think designers have a really really big role to play around this question asking and not just execution um and and to be able to ask these questions because I do honestly think that the more we ask and the and the rigor of our questions are going to lead to better experiences and better services and better products um because we're going to be solving for the right problems and not just the ones that are the quickest to solve um and and give us the most benefit in the short term but I think that the most benefit in the long term if we uh make the assumption that the work that we do is is demand driven and again going back to the fact innovation and having something new to present that was the demand of business and that's what we cater to what can we do right now to increase the demand or accelerate the demand now it's increasing the demand for this new thing or this shift that we have to offer of being maybe the conscious of the organization or understanding and uh removing complexity what what do you what do you what do you think we can do to to bring this closer in the next five years you mean increase the demand for this this type of of role of a designer yeah if this is what we want to do and if this is what we believe where we add the most value it would be nice if people actually start hiring us for that kind of work I know I know more service design titles I I'm with you and an actual service design framework like job framework um I mean I think we need to we need we need to start where our our stakeholders or our partners are at you know you know in a lot of ways I think that you can open the door but people need to walk through it and I think that we need to make the door the windows the house very very enticing um and I think how to do that is by using I think our ability to be strategic thinkers to be visual thinkers when a lot of people as it turns out are not in terms of at least visual thinking um use it to help them sift through the complexity of their work I have seen it um I've seen it work a lot you know where they don't quite understand why you're making such a massive blueprint or they don't know they're like okay you're just making some kind of map I guess um making a process map um and then when you actually walk them through that and you kind of show them what these gaps are and even as simple as aligning one team on what the problem is using the some kind of mapping it changed the whole outlook of how they see design that designers are not just people who do a bunch of research and then maybe make some kind of thing that they can ship um or make some kind of map that's all that's all we do is make maps and then ship stuff you know um and and I think that like we are doing all of those things you know um and I think just giving them a small piece of how they themselves can untangle their work a little bit more in their minds and even align and stop going in circles about what the actual problem is or how something operates because we're able to like map that out and like get that information and synthesize it and to be fair in a quick amount of time you know um I think that's that's like the door opening a bit you know is that we're kind of giving them a peek into like what this could be and how we could use these skills and this thinking to help them kind of be able to streamline to be able to like think about problems differently and to be able to think about people at the end of the day and not just what the kpi is not just what that necessarily like you know feature is or the functionality of things but really the people who are using and experiencing you know the product or the service so I guess for me I this is you know like most things start small because change at the end of the day is incremental especially if you're at a bigger company um a bigger organization and and and I guess it's a circle back around on about innovation and I think now innovation and it is change right we just kind of like concluded that part in our conversation that innovation has changed inherently and I think sustainable change you know for most things is incremental and being able to argue in incremental ways and persuade them to think about and have more of a designer mindset is going to feel much more doable than just being like you know talk about service design and be like this is the amazing thing about certain look at all these artifacts look what we can do for you and it's just like that's a lot they don't even understand some of these basic concepts a lot of times you know and I think what they what most folks want at their jobs is just to like do their jobs better and easier so how can we help them do that how can we help them bring that to to our teams I have one personal question as we're heading towards the end of this conversation um you mentioned uh that you're that you don't have a lot of patience and change takes time it's compounding it's incremental could you share with us how do you measure success for yourself how do you know that you're making progress if if it takes time and you're impatient and you want to see yeah that's that's a great question mark it makes me think about um i've been reflecting a bit about the the team that i sit on right now at the new york times is i said i work with the customer care team they're an amazing group of people um and who basically um is the operations technology team to support our our care agents who help our customers solve problems and i think about when i i first joined um we had two designers um and then when i joined they hired they hired two more um along with me and those two designers were you know we're we're doing design work but it was at kind of in a more execution manner you know like whatever the product managers decided to put together um you know they're the ones that kind of try to solve some of those problems and so they were they were they can be fairly narrow because of that right very like you know focused and narrow the research was was that way too um and then most importantly they did not know what service design really was they did not know what like the design can serve as a strategic capability um and and so i came in and through many conversations and some a lot of growing pains um and a lot of it was just building trust and demonstrating impact and when i say demonstrating impact it was um basically each sprint each quarter kind of showing like this is why we needed um to like to do all this user research this is why we needed to map the journey of an agent you know this is why you know and we did a whole project on like how do we ensure the morale of agents um you know with this we we had a whole kind of like reorganization you know of the way that we organize the team and stuff like that so how do we how do we keep that up and so like that work yielded direct impact you know to our ops team um of like what recommendations what frameworks can be used to make sure the team health is is very good so i think it was just over time um and and building a lot of trust and building relationships there and and now you know i i feel like i don't need to push as hard really um you know within our okay ours even to to be like what is the design work here and it went from not seeing what design work in our okay ours i don't like really like really struggling to now it's implicit like we know what that looks like they know what that looks like and it's part of the okay ours and so i guess kind of in a qualitative way in measurement like that's how i've seen it and then in a in a quantitative way even now we're looking at experiential metrics how do we measure experiences on the on the kind of like software that we're building so so i i think there's there's a lot of different kinds of like uh signals and that's um at least as my interpretation on a on an organizational level but for your personally so again change can take time how do you know that you are going in the right direction is is kind of looking at at those signals like you know if if to sum it up i mean if the okay ours that we have right or the goals that we have for the team no longer require so much of my persuasion and finessing of like this is how design me just trying to convince all the stakeholders like well this is how design can help you do these goals but really they've already thought about it and they already know what initiatives design is going to work on like that's great that is amazing that means that we they understand our capability and that we're not just these execution monkeys right and that like they understand the holistic nature of design and service design and the capability that we kind of like provide for them and the team to help accomplish our goals even um when we walk away from this conversation and and our campfire what do you hope is one thing we never forget from this moment what do you hope we take away with i hope we take away that innovation and design is not an exclusive sport and that the people who have been practicing it for a lot longer you know people who are designers and people who are service designers you know have a place in in being able to to i think you called it like being the the the conscious humans you know in the group to ask some of these critical questions and that like one if you are being asked those questions those critical questions i hope that you're not defensive i hope that you know you take that with an open mind of like curiosity because that's where the designer is coming from um and then i think that if you are the designer to not be afraid to ask because at the end of the day that's our job to do that um and i know there's an immense amount of pressure on you and on design teams to produce and to have results and impact um but i i think in the long run we're not going to have a big impact you know from a business standpoint and also from a societal standpoint if we are not asking these questions and not being afraid i think we need to be fearless um in our curiosity and in being and in asking these critical questions being fearless in our curiosity if there ever was a sentence to put on a t-shirt that's going to be the one Yvonne thanks so much for sharing your journey and uh trials and tribulations with us today uh very curious uh how this conversation would go in five years time uh maybe we'll need to do a revisit so thanks again for coming on and uh being here with us thanks mark it was a lot of fun thanks for having me awesome that you're still with me for the closing reflections here's a key message that i'll be taking away from our conversation the fact that distinct innovation roles are disappearing is actually a sign of maturity for our practice innovation isn't and shouldn't be something that's exclusive to a certain group within an organization and when we can direct innovation again towards true innovation rather than an excuse only to make more money will be golden the other thing that Yvonne said and which honestly deserves its own t-shirt is that we must stay furiously curious amen to that if you've enjoyed today's conversation you can do me one big favor click the like button on this video if you haven't done so already not to feed the youtube algorithm but to let me know whether we're on the right track by addressing topics like this finally before we part ways please take a moment to reflect and celebrate by joining us today you've directed your attention towards learning and growing as a professional so from everyone who you're going to impact through your work thank you for taking the time and making the commitment my name is mark from time and I look forward to having you with us again for a new conversation on the service design show take care and see you soon