 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome to The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself, Jackie Jones and the wonderful Bob Cook. I'm really looking forward to this episode, Bob. I don't think I know a lot about this, but with episode 38 and what we're going to be looking at is dream analysis, imagination and fantasy in the therapy room. What a wonderful podcast we've got coming up. I know, I'm really excited about this. I have a lot of clients that have asked me, does my dream mean anything? I keep having this dream, is it significant? And apart from having a book somewhere called Dream Dictionary, I have no idea. So I'm laughing because I can tell you how to answer that question. But tell me then. Just tell them yes. Yes, because dreams have been going on for centuries. It's nothing new. I mean, Freud wrote an article, Interpretation of Dreams, I think in 1898, published in a book by him in 1900. But we can go back centuries before that, all the way back to Socrates, and we can trace dreams and how people looked at dreams through different civilizations and different times. We can go right back to, as I said, to Socrates and we can look at, they believed in dreams in terms of often divine intervention as we work through some cultures believed in dreams in supernatural ways. We go right up. But let's start at Freud because probably that's where we are in the European culture. Now, he really, in his that book, or that article, Interpretation of Dreams, believed the dreams really about fulfillment of wishes, in other words, our own fulfillment of our inner desires. Dreams were in the area of the unconscious. And Freud termed the name for dreams, or a wonderful description. They are the royal road to your unconscious. Young, when he was talking, who was also a disciple in terms of Freud's, in terms of psychoanalysis and dreams, talked about this as the royal road to the soul. Either way, with dreams sit in the world of the unconscious of the individual. So when your client states to you, I have dreams, whether they've been nightmares, daydreams, repetitive dreams, or in fact, even if they say, well, I don't remember my dreams, but I know, you know, I've been told that everybody dreams, for example, you can say, yeah, this is all about the, your unconscious. Freud said the fulfillment of inner desires that haven't been realized, or conflicts, trauma, etc. In fact, Freud, just before he died, talked about dreams also being about expression of trauma that hasn't been released or worked through. So either way, dreams are about the internal world of the individual. Either way, we look at it. So with psychotropic clients, particularly, we're always looking for how trauma, dreams, ideas, myths, whichever way you look at it, are actually repressed, and often in the world of the unconscious and get acted out unconsciously in the external world. So if we can help our clients look at what's happening in the unconscious world that's not been actually externalized, dreams are a great tool for this to analyze them, to interpret them, to look at what might have been desired, but actually is repressed, for example. Yeah, I find it fascinating because I fall into the category, I don't remember my dreams, the majority of the time, on the very rare occasion where I do remember it, that obscure, I find it hard to relate it to anything. Well, you know, dream interpretation, is that up for interpretation? Yeah, I mean, when you say don't remember anything, I think the most accessible dreams are often when people are scared, they frighten themselves, often in the world of nightmares. And then, of course, you've got daydreams. Yes. Not just, you know, you'll talk about dreams in the unconscious, I mean daydreams, we all daydream, don't we? Yeah. And they're in the world of conscious and unconscious. But if a client comes to me for it, I can't think of any body that's ever said anything like this, so I'm not referring to a particular client. But if a client says, I was on a train, and I went in this carriage, and there was a wolf sitting there, and a woman in a black cloak with a sheep, what does that mean? What do I say to that? Am I supposed to be able to interpret that dream? Well, I think whether it's Freud, whether it's young, whether it's some of the later psychotherapists, they all talk about the interpretation will be an unconscious world of the clients. Now, in the way you've just talked about, let's take that example that we probably just tell you on top of your head. Definitely. Yeah. I'm thinking of some tiered therapists called the Gouldings in Analyzing Dreams. I got taught not by them personally, but by some people being on their workshops about dreams. They would see the dream or every aspect of the dream as part of the self. Okay. So the wolf would be part of the self. The tunnel would be part of the self. The train would be part of the self. The television, if that dream was in your dream, would be part of the self. So everything you dreamt, including the enumerated objects, would be part of the self. That's fascinating, Bob. Right. So if you were coming from their perspective, which really sits in the Gestalt world, more than the TA world, that's Fitz Pearls, etc. That view is about, as I've just said it, that everything you dream is part of yourself. Different conflicts, different traumatic parts, different parts of yourself which haven't had expression of desire, etc. etc. So a Gestalt psychotherapist or the TA that Gestalt, if you want to, would get the client or ask the client to talk to the different parts of themselves that have been represented in the dream. Okay. So it'd be doing, it'd be doing, it'd be a bit like doing roleplay work. So for example, you'd say, okay, we need part of yourself to play the train, part of yourself to play the wolf, part of yourself to play the man that came in the carriage that surprised you, the part of yourself that was thinking of the things I would have to flesh out the dream even more. So then we'd get all those parts of the dream. And as I said, you'd roleplay each part of them and talk to each part of them. I just see what comes up. Yeah, so let's make a, I haven't, I haven't remembered any trauma dreams recently to just flesh out, but I mean, you know, I could think of one where, I don't know, two or three months ago, where I was sitting in the front room and my Steph came in and he was my wife and then my sister from childhood came in the room and we were watching television and my father came in and then my mother and father started shouting each other and the television grew louder, everything got more blacker and then I woke up. So what you would do, you play, you play your mother, you play the father, you play the television, someone plays the room, someone plays your sister XXX and then you ask them to talk to each other. Now, the way I used to do that was I had cushions to represent different parts of the self and the mother would talk to the father, the television would then report back what they're thinking and you'd have the dialogues between the different parts of the self and from that, from that you would perhaps see where it goes and perhaps what the hope would be that you would uncover the conflicts between the different parts of the self or at least move to perhaps some interpretation of what was happening between the conflicts of the different parts of the self. That's fascinating. So what if somebody was replaying a past trauma in a dream? Is that the same thing? Would you, is that separate parts of the self even if it's replaying a past event? Yeah, in fact, yes, definitely in the way I'm just talking about. Okay, interestingly enough, I was just reading an article the other day right up to date 2021 and it was talking about CBT and the use of CBT but then it was talking about, and I can't remember the acronyms anyway, of therapy with clients have been traumatized by analyzing their dreams with the objective to help the person externalize the trauma that was coming out in their dreams and the way they did that was to get the person to go over the dream, go over the dream, go over the dream, go over the dream, slow down the dream, talk about the content of the dream and help flesh out the trauma that is beneath the memories of the dream, memories in the dream. And I wish I'd read the end of the article but it was all about, and I wish I got the acronyms to it, this way of repeating the specificity of the dream or the content of the dream to get to the layers of the trauma. So for example, nightmares are all about trauma. Yeah, yeah. Or the expression of trauma in some way. We all know about, we can wake ourselves up often because we're scared of what we're actually feeling in the dream and that usually is an attempt to express trauma, for example. All this is in the world of the unconscious though. As I said, Freud just when we died talked about a move from the idea of dreams simply being about the performance of desires that hadn't been realized to the expression of trauma, the attempt to express trauma. Yeah. And into the way we are in 2021, I was interested in the article that we as therapists would help the client go through the content of the dream many, many, many times with the attempt to get to the trauma which is underneath the content of the dream. So are you saying then that they don't know what the trauma is? Often what comes out in dreams is symbolism. Okay. Symbols. Okay. Just like you brought in, of the topic you had a wolf. Yeah. Now I'm not going to therapy online with you, but if we started to look at a wolf meant for you and what would be the symbol of that and perhaps to even act like a wolf or we could think of many different ways imaginatively to play out what a wolf may or may not meant for you underneath that or we could even play out the part of you that wasn't the wolf would probably get to what might be some trauma somewhere and what that all means in a symbolic way. Okay. What if it's specifically replaying an actual event? Well, I think that's what happens in dreams. We can have high stimulus. I mean, I don't watch really horrific gory films. Me neither. At 9 or 10 o'clock just before I go to bed. I don't watch them full stop, I don't like these quite often the high stimulus of the what's going on in the environment or the television or the radio just before going to bed can often stimulate terror in us or scare in us or trigger out something in our history which hasn't been resolved, which then comes out in a dream. Yeah. But often you will talk about people trying to resolve things from something they've just watched and it comes out in the dream. Yeah, because, you know, on the very very occasion where I have had a dream or a nightmare and I've woken up partway through it, there's a physiological thing going on. I feel scared if I've had a scary dream and I wake up, you know, kind of halfway through it. That's right. I mean, when I remember going to workshop by a Freudian who taught me how to analyze dreams from his perspective and what he did with his clients who say wanted to analyze a dream, he'd say, okay, so what was happening in your dream? And so they go through the dream and then they said, what happened? How did it end? And the person says, well, I just woke up or I woke up scared or whatever. And then the analyst says, okay, I'd like you to, through imagination, just imagine what would happen if the dream went on another three minutes. The client then imagines what might have been going on when the dream stopped. Yeah. And then then to talk about, or that would be the encouragement about analyzing the dream from that perspective, you know, because the idea is that you wake yourself up unconsciously at the time when perhaps the trauma might have been resolved, or the conflicts might have been dealt with. But you wake yourself up because of the unresolved conflict. So if you go on three or four minutes, you might get to what was underneath the conflicts before you stopped. Yeah. And I would imagine that would be less scary for the client if they're conscious and carrying the dream on, if that makes sense. Because I think that's one of the things with nightmares is they just happen. It's not like we have any control over them on a conscious level. That's right. But if you saw the nightmares as trauma, yeah, some is history, rather than what I've just said, you might might scare yourself. You watch silent witness and somebody's been open and got bodies or whatever it is. So you go to bed and then you might scare yourself and you, that's an attempt to that's an attempt to resolve what you've just been stimulated by. I'm not talking about that. Yeah. It's been triggered off in your history at a traumatic level. Then I think, and this is what I was talking about earlier on, that if you get your client to repeat or remember what they remembered many, many times, you may get to not interpretations, but what is underneath the memory so you can get to the trauma. Yeah. Yeah. When you think about it, Bob, our minds or bodies or, you know, the holistic thing that is a human being, we're really good at doing all this stuff, aren't we? If there's some unresolved trauma and a dream is a way of bringing it to our attention. That's right. It's a pretty clever technique to be using. Yeah, I think, I mean, Jung talked about dreams being a way of rebalancing or addressing the psyche. Yeah. And he also talked about dreams being a way of dealing with what he called the collective unconscious. So, you know, I think the brain is particularly sophisticated, particularly clever if you want to use those words. And it's a way and dreams are a way of dealing with unresolved conflicts, I think, unfulfilled wishes, traumas that haven't been dealt with. And as Jung says, rebalance, I think, and dealing with the internal and external worlds, which have got out of sync. Yeah. And Gestalt therapy, you know, I very much like the idea of taking this further in the unconscious, that there are different parts of ourselves, which are a conflict, get played out in our dreams in an attempt to resolve the conflict. So if we can get the different parts of ourselves to be played out externally through roleplay, and the therapists can see those dialogues, they can help bring some resolution to the conflicted parts, which the dreams had been attempted to do. Yeah. It's fascinating. But often we wake ourselves up before we go that extra step. Yeah. So the therapist can help us do that and help us sort out those unconscious processes so that our external world is more peaceful. Yeah. And of course, on another level, let's just talk about the dreams we all have our daydreams often, desires for how we're going to be in the future. For example, all of you, let's ask yourself here, you could ask myself, we could ask any of the therapist's listens. What was the unconscious motivation for us to be psychotherapists? What made us go into the world of psychotherapy? What made us specialise with particular clients? So for example, why, you know, I was a teacher in electorate politics before I trained in psychotherapy. Why did I, what was the motivation unconsciously for me, not only to stay in the world of psychotherapy, but to stay in the world of psychotherapy for 38 years, helping people their internal conflicts, their misery, their worries, their depressions, their hopes, their desires. And also, what was the motivation unconsciously from people to specialise with people who were dissociated, fragmented, cut off, disowned? What was the motivation for me to be doing this for all these years? And it's the same for every therapist, same for you. Why, what was the motivation? And I think every therapist probably dreams. And I mean, I certainly did, certainly did when I talked about my career. And if I really start to look at those dreams and those myths and those thoughts, I can see probably that one of my unconscious motivations was I wanted to help people or to find themselves in the ways that I did find myself and to look for the lost parts of themselves. Because my history was very much in that whole area about being lost and someone being lost and never found. If you look at my career, I'm playing out my unconscious world in a way which is not only cathartic to me, but provides me internally and externally with a different outcome. So I think those were all dreams. They're the stories we tell ourselves. Those are myths that we tell ourselves. I might even use those myths in the service of our clients. Yeah. The daydreaming and things like that, I can kind of understand how that works. Because, yeah, it's one of the big questions that I ask clients a lot of the time. What's your why? Why now? Why? I suppose we all have our own story that gets us to where we are. Yeah. And so do clients. I couldn't tell you how many of clients I've seen over 38 years, but I can tell you that for every client I've sat down with, I attempt to think about and dream about and visualise about what their story is and help them to come to their own understanding of their own story. Yeah. Now it's not only helped, but also hindered them in getting to where they wanted to do today. So I have spent my life thinking about other people's stories, dreaming about other people's stories, thinking about the myths of their own stories, helping them get to their unique stories. Often by myths, you know, wouldn't be my myths, everybody has their own story, their own unique story, their own myths about how they came into the world, what it all means for themselves. I've got my own myth, if you like, about how I move from being where I was to where I am today and the in-between bit. Yeah. It is fascinating. And yeah, I was thinking like manifestation and things like that, do you know what I mean? Using our imagination to the good of us. I can remember, I think it's an NLP technique that I used with my younger son when he was a lot younger. He was having recurring nightmares. So I got him to really focus in on the characters in the dream and to change the way that it looked. You know, was he in the dream or was he observing it? Where was he looking at it? What colours were in there? And to get him to imagine like a television screen where he was turning up the brightness and adjusting it and making it less scary. So that kind of thing fascinates me on how our brain can process all of that stuff. Well, I mean, the use of fantasy and create particularly, isn't that what they're best do every day of their lives with clients? I suppose when you put it that way, yeah. I think for me, the whole thing about dream interpretation, I don't know. It doesn't sit well with me because I can only interpret it through my own understanding. Yeah. Does that make sense? So I'd always be very dubious about whether I've got the right meaning from what I'm being told. Yes. And there's two ways of looking at this. If we, if you use the Gestalt way of analysing dreams and get them to well play different parts of themselves and the different conflicts or traumas or whichever way you want to call this, then you aren't making any interpretations. You're really following the dialogue and helping them look at the different conflicts of yourself, which you'll do every day of your life in couples therapy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. For example. So it's no different. You're dealing with the internal cutoff parts of the self, which come out in dreams. And you just help the person get in role play through role playing and what I'm talking about. The dialogues, the traumas that have been happening in the past. So it's no different. But if you go back to Freudian interpretations then, and if you go a dream dictionaries when they talk about different terms, then it's a bit different because you're doing what psychoanalysts did a hundred years ago, which was forced interpretations onto their clients. Now, relational psychotherapy is a million miles away from that. Good, because I struggle with all this stuff. I'm not talking about that. Good. Yeah. Talking about that's why I like Gestalt psychotherapy in the way I was just talking about. But relational dream analysis is when you analyse the dreams together. Yes. Yeah. Through mutual dialogue. Yes. So that's different again. Yeah. It's just that whole interpreting, you know, they say that if your teeth fall out, it means something in your dreams. And if you see a rabbit and all, I don't understand that. That comes from psychoanalysis a hundred years ago where the analyst was the expert. Yeah. That doesn't fit well with me. The other stuff, you know, exploring the dream and playing the different parts and because I suppose the client has given you the information, if they're talking about the dream or what they can remember, then it is the reality of that dream as opposed to me putting my... Yeah. Well, you were trained in relational psychotherapy from a TA framework. So where it's a very completely different orientation of psychoanalysis. I mean, they're two different worlds. So I'm not surprised that you're thinking of dream analysis in terms of a humanistic relational perspective rather than a one-up, one-down expert perspective. I do find it interesting, which is why I have that book. Because clients have specifically asked me, what does it mean if I've got this in a dream? And I will say, I have a book. I can have a look, but I don't understand it. I've got a book about the stars, Libran, Scorpio, San Geterius. So we can but I'm not talking about that. That's interesting. Psychoanalysis is different. That's very different. I prefer the relational humanistic. Yes. Yeah. Analyzing dreams, if you want to put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'd rather have dream dialogue than the dream analysis. But it is an exploration of the dream in the conscious way in a therapy room. It is. But if I just move back to fantasies for a moment, which is when I said we all think of fantasies every day of our lives, it depends on how you see the outcome of psychotherapy. If you think psychotherapy is about helping the person develop their own story, look at the story of how it is today and how it affects them and help them rewrite a different script or a different story so they can get a different outcome today, then you're not far away from fantasy therapy, are you? Because you're helping them develop their stories, their scripts through fantasy. Because it has to be fantasy. What else can it be? Yeah. Because it's not a reality yet. It's their own unique story. Yeah. And what you're attempting to do is look at how that script, their own story of how they see that world, hasn't helped them today. So to help them develop a new script or a new way of being so they have a more healthier outcome today, one of the best tools is through helping them develop what fantasies, positive fantasies, that they can desire or even just think about barely for once in their lives, which might be the creation of a new script. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And the true potential and how it will be moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. Often through visualisations, which is fantasy. Yeah. Yeah. Often through creative stories, which is often fantasy. Yeah. And again, role-playing can play quite a big part in that. Rather than therapy, we could go on and on. Yeah. The utilisation of imagination and fantasy, positive, can often be the development of a new exciting script, which gives them a potential that clients may never have dreamed of. Well, maybe I need to start doing this in the therapy room, Bob. I think you probably do it every day. Yeah. I probably do with the way that you've explored it and explained it now. Yeah. Every day, because without helping the person explore their fantasies, their potentials, their desires, their excitement, their curiosity, their dreams, you're going nowhere, aren't you? Because you have to explore all those to enable the person to actually capture the possibility of a new world for them. Yeah. So I think I would be astonished if you didn't do that every day in your life. Yeah. However you wanted to to term that in your own way of looking at that. But I think without doing that, the person will get stuck in their own script because they won't have the imagination, fantasies, potential to actually look at a new way of being. Now, dream analysis, by helping them look at their unconscious in a relational way, and the different parts of themselves which get played out externally, you've got a fantastic, well, I think the unconscious is a fantastic, fantastic, wonderful metaphor, if you want to even look at that, then about reality, which holds a huge amount of thoughts, memories, and repressed traumas. And if we can get hold of looking at that through dreams or fantasies, that's wonderful, because then they can change their external reality. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what it's all about, isn't it really? Yeah, but anthropists need to help the person do that. Yeah. Because they can't do it themselves because they're stuck in it. You talk to somebody who's just stuck in a repetitive, recurring nightmare, scared every night, have repetitive dreams. Yeah, it is. It's been caught in that loop, and it's not, it's not nice. You need somebody from the outside, from the outside, it's like a bio loop, isn't it, from the outside to actually help the person understand, whether by myth, metaphor, not so much interpretation, because I'm with you on that, to, is that going through the sort of layers of an onion to get to what the trauma and the conflicts are about, and how they can change that in their external world? Yeah. I think dreams, fantasies, imagination, they're all the tools of the therapist, and if they don't use them, whoa, the client's therapy takes a lot, lot longer. We're at music therapy, we only touch music therapy. If you put some evocative music, so you'd be, your client's come in the room, and it's playing, I don't know, just an evocative of London or whether it be the latest, whatever music really, that in itself would trigger off fantasies, trigger off many different parts of the unconscious. And without the therapist using these, these tools, I think they're very limited, you know, in the process. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever used music in a therapy room, Bob? Yeah, no, I, you know, well, I probably don't, but you do, I think you do. As a therapist, my main aim is always to go to the unconscious, which is called the younger self or the child eager state and transaction analysis. Now to get there, to help the person move away from their adult self to their younger self or unconscious self, whichever language you want to use, you need to help them do that. And the best ways to do that, in my opinion, is through creativity and imagination. And therefore, I like art therapy, music therapy, play therapy, role therapy, any of those creative parts, which help the person go to a different part of their psyche, hopefully their younger part, the unconscious part, where the trauma and the conflict lies, because it doesn't lie in the adult eager state. No, no. It doesn't really lie in the parent eager state that you might have psychotic disturbed parents, which haven't posed things onto the pen. But you need to get to the child, need to get the unconscious part, the younger part of the self. I think creative methods like we're talking about here, which help us get to the unconscious or the younger part, is something which I have been using these techniques and tools and ways for the last 38 years. All of them. All of them. Art therapy, particularly. Any of them, which will get the person to their younger part of the self, where the trauma is. The trauma is never in the adult. No, no, no. Otherwise, she gets past timing. Yes. Not really in the parent. Well, the trauma might be in the disturbed parent, but you need to get to the child or the younger part of the self first, to where the trauma is before you get to the parent. But you certainly don't need to, certainly not going to stay in the adult. So you have to use, I believe, fantasy, imagination, creative expression to get to the child, which is often so locked up in repression, that these ways we're talking about now are the keys to unlock the spirit. Yeah, I do. I do like it. And I do get what you're saying. You know, I suppose one of the main creative things that I use in the therapy room, I would love to do art therapy, by the way. I've not done that, but I would love to do that. Is metaphors and stories and visualisation, you know, ways of putting their story into something they can visualise? Like jars on a supermarket shelf with different memories in, or that sort of story. The best way to do contracting is through art therapy. Get them to draw what they want to change. Then get them to draw how they're going to stop themselves making their change, because they haven't made the change already they wanted to be in therapy. And then get them to draw what they need to do to get the desire what they want, what's going to stop them getting what they want, and thirdly what they need to do. But do it all through drawings. See, I think for a lot of clients that would be a challenge, because straight away, as adults, we're really judgmental and critical of, you know, and having that blank piece of paper to do something on it. So wouldn't it be wonderful then to experience the therapist who wasn't critical, wasn't judgmental, all the things you're talking about, gave them the permission to just express themselves in any way they wanted. And if they find it really hard, then they can write it. Yeah. And it is a safe space in the therapy room to be creative, to do whatever it is that you want. So but my instant reaction when you were talking about art therapy then was, yeah, I'm straight away the majority of them would say, I can't draw, I can't, I can't do that. I think if they experience a different type of parent, a different type of permissions, and they've got a good relationship with the therapist, they may attempt to just express themselves with the knowledge that it's not about perfect drawing or perfect this that the other, they can just put something down on the page. Now that's art therapy. Yeah. I could spend all day coloring in a therapy session, Bob. That would be my, I would love that. But the most important thing would be then to go on to the saboteur and what stops them achieving that goal, again by drawing that process. Now it's not about pictures, it's about expression of the unconscious. Yes. And know exactly what you're saying, because we have a sort of parent-oriented society about perfect pictures and everything else. My experience is that if they get that, people get the chance to have a therapist that is given them permission to just express whatever comes up. Yeah. They will go with that. Yeah. And that is the wonderful part of the child or being a child is that there's no judgment there, they're not critical, they just do it. So to reconnect with that part of yourself in a therapy room, through art therapy, using imagination and creativity would be amazing. Yeah. And if you want to go a step further, but this might be a bit of a stretch for you, given what you've just said, ask them to draw with a non-dominant hand. Yeah. So I'm right-handed. So that would mean encourage me to draw with my left hand. And why that it would be so evocative is that it would take you back to the early times in your life when you were struggling to draw for the first time in any sense of expression. And that's, of course, where you want your clients to go to. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I love that, Bob. I know somebody that does do art therapy and that's one of the things that they do is they draw with their non-dominant hand. They are an artist, but in the therapy with clients, they use the non-dominant hand so that there isn't any, I don't know, comparisons. Yeah. Ask them to draw their fantasies. I mean, I was talking about contracts a moment ago, but there's so many different directions to go. And it's the same with all these mediums that we're talking about here. They are to enable the client to visit their unconscious or their younger self and then to help the therapist look at the conflicts, the trauma, the wishes that haven't been fulfilled, et cetera, et cetera. Bob, this episode, I've loved this episode. We need to do more conversations like this. I don't even know what we're doing in the next episode. Well, I've got one. Go on. And usually we haven't done it. Now ask me, ask us, could we do it? And I said, have we done it to you? And you said we haven't. But that's erotic transference. Right. If we haven't done it, I quite happily talk about that. That will be episode 39 then, erotic transference. And the other one, we can just pick something from the list. Self-harm. Have we done self-harm? I think we've covered self-harm. So we can pick one other from the list and we can start off with erotic transference. So the next episode will be around erotic transference. In the therapeutic room, because we all have erotic transference in the normal world anyway. So this will be specifically about erotic transference in the therapeutic world and how to use it, yeah, in service of positivity for the client. Interesting. We're getting some juicy, some juicy content in these episodes. That's because, you know, there's not enough, there's not enough talked about when we're talking about sex in the therapeutic room. And of course, most of the, most of the sexual process we're talking about, we can talk about in the process of erotic transference. And of course, erotic transference goes both ways. In other words, the therapist that fancies or transfers their eroticism onto the client just as much as the other way around. Interesting stuff, Bob. It's like you say, there's a lot of things that we don't talk about that, you know, this is behind closed doors of the therapy room. So there's no taboo topics. Yeah, yeah, because look, you got, yes, I could go on about the subject. I talk about it a lot. I think I've written an article on this particular subject area. And then we'll just pick one other from the huge list we've got. The huge list that you sent me. We've gone through about 20 of the list we sent us. Yeah. Well, we're up to work. This next one, erotic transference will be episode 39. So we're plodding through them. But yeah, there was about 100 on that list, Bob, that you sent me. So what if Francis, then one other and then we'll pick another two from the list as we go along. I didn't know it was number 30, whatever it is, 38 or 39. But I look forward to continuing them anyway. Me too. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this episode, Bob. Take care. See you at the next one. See you on the next one. Bye bye. Bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.