 And how do you think we will deal with this going forward? I am not sure if I will be able to describe how I view what is happening in the rural areas. Let us recognize that there is a lot of shift in the way employment is panning out. Let us recognize that migration is now looking at redefining itself in a way. Many people who went back to their villages with some skills acquired are wondering if they can continue being there and utilizing and benefitting from the skills that they have acquired. Industries too today are allowing a lot of work from home and many who are avoiding traveling are also staying back. So that shift will have to be recognized. But equally that is not to say people are staying back home without work or staying back and working from there with large companies being established everywhere else. So there is this transition happening undoubtedly. Second, there is also this little savings which is coming through which we are seeing from the various fixed deposits which are growing as different from small savings. You are also seeing some middle class looking at savings through these stock markets, DMAT accounts and so on. So the indicators with which we are looking at the rural economy may vary and there are very many newer indicators which we may not want to miss out on. Yes, I agree FMCG market will also tell us that consumable, durable consumables are not being consumed as much as before. But well I take that as one indicator. But equally the kind of activities which are now happening in the rural areas because of better connectivity, because of other digitization are also yet to be measured I would think. One thing related to the job market especially if you look at the campus recruitment in engineering colleges and MBA colleges. So on one side there is this the economy is doing well and all indicators point to that. But on the other hand the campus recruitment this year has been muted, salaries have been lower, many students have not got a job offer yet. How do you see this in relation to the overall big picture? The question about employment I am afraid we are repeatedly focusing only on those indicators. Pertaining to the formal economy which is important I am not denying its role. So college recruitments I am like campuses are important. But equally the jobs that are getting created in the middle and lower order are not getting counted at all. I would look at the way in which banks and their credit is happening in small and medium businesses. The new companies which have got registered which is a data which I have put out from the MCA. The number of new companies which have started are certainly not people who are being recruited for jobs. They are people who are investing money, believing in their skills, registering a company and probably giving jobs for others. Why would new companies get registered in a bigger number than before if employment is not being offered? Companies cannot operate in vacuum without human beings in them. So I think a fairer open and an exhaustive picture of India's employment both in the formal and non-formal areas will have to have some kind of a wider base with which and we need to bring in such data so that the discussion can be more informed. And some of I think the global slowdown is also having an impact on our jobs especially at the higher end. I am campuses or engineering colleges etc. Equally because of the way in which artificial intelligence is coming the kind of job requirements that are expected of new recruits are also changing. So the people with old skill sets are now expected to have additional newer skill sets for entering into a certain area which still now did not exist. So lots of calibrations are required in understanding this. You know yesterday in your budget speech you were very appreciative of you know income tax payers. You in fact the number of income tax you know people paying income tax has gone up. Collections are up 2.4 times. You were quite appreciative. In fact I thought you just stopped short of sort of giving them something back because you know it was a vote on account. My question is that you know salary people are paying 30% today whereas corporates pay 22% tax. In the longer term directionally. Corporates meaning as an entity company. Yes that's right. So I am saying in the longer term directionally do you think you would align this in some way or the other. I am talking about the longer term. Well the direct taxation reforms are a steady job in the pipeline and some results come out and more work is happening. So direct taxation is something on which we won ease of the tax payers facilitation which has to be improved and also one of the things happened yesterday. One of the serving the customer better business in the taxation regime happened yesterday. But more work can always be done. Yes so salary can be more hopeful in the coming days in your July budget. I am not saying anything now. No I know that. I mean directionally over the long term. You managed inflation very well in the past few years. You know what about food inflation? You know that's really pinching the common man pulses are up 20% vegetables 27%. Any plan to sort of rein in food inflation? See food inflation cannot be spoken as one basket. Yes. Or one item. It has so many different components. If pulses are becoming more expensive. We are import dependent to meet adequacy in meeting their demand. In the sense we are not self sufficient. We need to import to meet our demand and when you depend on imports the prices are determined by the supplier not by us. So when it is pulse or dal where the prices have to be controlled so much has to be done well in advance. If you know your crop is only X and not what you need then you pre plan imports you have to touch on very many countries to get the imports and so on. And in that of course the role of the traders is very important. That is one thing. Second is you are looking at other seasonal vegetables which can equally be affected by drought or by excess rain. No import substitution or no import in the last minute can help us if suddenly one particular crop say of potatoes or onions or tomatoes are lost. The last minute procurement from somewhere else is also fraught with difficulties. So the treatment for controlling price for pulses and the perishable crops and let's say rice which can be stored are all very different. And that is why there is a committee in government of India which looks into this and make sure that periodically you are able to get in time those based on estimates. It's an ongoing job. It's not with a deadline. It has to keep happening. And I think largely the committee has been successful otherwise we couldn't have been closer to the policy range. You know I had interviewed the Prime Minister in 2016 as early as that and he spoke about the white paper. He said that we should come out with the white paper because we inherited an economy which was in the fragile five. And you know what and that was early you know just two years into the government and what we've been what we had to really do to drag it out of you know the levels it had reached. You spoke similarly yesterday about the white paper and you said it was a Herculean task to bring the economy back from the brink. What is the idea behind the white paper? Why now? And will it be another stick to beat the opposition with? See you're right in pointing out that the Honorable Prime Minister has spoken about it even in 2016 in your interview. Then it was so many different sections of our society themselves suggested to us that you better bring a white paper out. To say why Indian economy has reached the fragile five. To say why our banks have become such a black hole nothing could be restored of the banks. Banks were all in deep trouble. Look at the number of NPAs and the value of the NPAs meaning what was the original value and to what extent they had reached almost close to value less positions. So whether it was your banks whether it was overall economy whether it was defense procurement whether it was a vital sector of telecom. Why? Even minerals. Every area was ridden with problems. Now if you're talking of corruption well it's one thing it goes to the court people get punished and then the monies are given back or not given back. Values are retrieved or not retrieved that's one side of the story. But what impact it left on the economy? To restore your banks back to health. To make sure your country is safe with adequate strategic equipment given to defense personnel. To make sure that your minds which are wealth under the earth meaning inside the earth under the soil. To use them for the benefit of the country rather than to use them as one instrument through which you line your own pocket. What implications it had on the economy? Banks not being healthy, minds being given to brothers and sisters who did not want to extract the mineral for the benefit of the country. Spectrum allocations if it had happened in time I didn't have to spend so much to restore BSNL to have 2G or 4G in time. And what implication does it have on the country when 4G is not available in time whereas the whole world is talking about 5G. So the kind of impact that it had the mismanagement it is not just talking about policy paralysis for a fragile 5. It is talking about every one of these steps which one in morally which number one morally was immoral in the sense was not right. And equally the kind of positive effect if it had happened very well in a transparent fashion it would have had on the economy. We lost 10 glorious years and to restore it to that position back and then to pull it up to now get closer to the world's third largest economy is a herculean task. Which I am grateful this country had a Prime Minister like Modi ji who single-mindedly said I will restore this economy back it's my service to the nation. Otherwise it wouldn't have happened. So why the white paper now? We've had 10 years and prior to that there was a 10 years where you saw all this happening. Policy paralysis, corruption, nation losing its endowments and so on. 10 years under Prime Minister Modi. What kind of course corrections had to happen? What kind of restoring confidence had to happen? What kind of pulling back from rut that had to happen? And equally making sure you're purchasing the equipments, you're removing BSNL from distress, you're making sure BSNL employees are given the due. You're making sure the country gets 5G not just 4G. Look at the coverage India has in 5G today. All this and to make sure that the investor confidence is not just intact but is growing that within a matter of 8 years I would say we've reached 596 billion US dollars as a foreign exchange reserve. Just compare that with the last 10 years. At least for the sake of the elected honourable representatives who are sitting in the parliament, they should know what was it then, what effort it took to restore it here and what we should not therefore ever imagine or dream of doing in personal interest forgetting the nation. Why now? Parliament should know. 2. At that time had Prime Minister Modi not taken the call that in the interest of our nation I would not bring it out. He didn't bring the paper then. Why paper then? Because you put the nation first. You say if I do it now I can be happy but the confidence in our country would have been lost. Investors wouldn't have come. Our own people would have lost faith in the systems. They would say oh my god this government will come, eat away and go. That next government can come. It will do its own but we are all languishing. The faith in institutions, in government, in leaders, in politics would have been lost in the minds of people. And I am so grateful that the Prime Minister didn't do it then. He restored it all. Put India on such a wonderful track towards becoming third largest economy. And then so that all of us know what it took and what we shouldn't do in the future this paper. So when do you table it? Well, sooner or later. A passionate reply from you I must say. Nirmala Ji, when it comes to the markets, Nirmala Sitaraman can do no wrong. Last two, three years markets have been on a roll. My question is can you assure the markets and its participants that there will be stability in the capital gains tax regime? And I ask this question because last year you had tweaked the debt mutual funds in your budget speech. So is there stability around the corner in the foreseeable future? Policy says stability is one thing which Prime Minister really lays a lot of emphasis on. He doesn't like periodic tweaking. He would tell you it's only two years, it's only three years. Let it play out, let it settle down and so on. So he is never in favor of quick twists and turns. And this is not me saying people who have observed him for his tenure as Chief Minister will know that the biggest strength under Prime Minister Modi is stability in policy. So that's a singular line reply that I can give for it. No surprises, I'm in long-term stability in policy. You know, another question, current question. Arbia has imposed restrictions on the operations of Paytm Payments Bank. I don't want to go into the details but just a question is what is your message to the FinTech industry? Is there more than meets the eye in this case or are we going to be cautious when it comes to the FinTech sector? No, I wouldn't want to comment on any one particular company. But FinTech is an area in which all of us are very enthusiastic. India has contributed a lot in this sector. India's contribution in this sector has been globally recognized. Today if people are looking at solutions, FinTech solutions, they are looking to India. Our youth have contributed a lot and built capacities for themselves. This is an area which we'd certainly like to work with and encourage. I'm not commenting on any one comment. That's our thing to know for the FinTech industry. Thanks for the message. You have been typing things around. Would you think that the RBI should loosen now? Well, RBI does take its own call but I will appreciate the RBI for working together with the stakeholders. I'm sure they take a call that keeping growth in mind. They have been steady I suppose. They'll continue to be steady is my expectation and hope. A few quick political questions. I'm aware of the time. Thank you for answering all our business and economic questions at great length. We are seeing a different side of Nirmala Sita Raman. In the last few weeks, you've also been seen as an aggressive politician. You have turned the heat on your rivals in Tamil Nadu. You said that Stalin's DMK is an anti-Hindu party and that they were forbidding the live telecast of the Ram Mandir Pran Pratishthan ceremony. What do you have to say to that? Hundred percent. I have not said a loose word. I did mean what I say and I do truly believe that repeatedly they attack on Hindus in Tamil Nadu in layers which are seen and in layers which are not seen have been felt for a long time. I speak very many times about Tamil Nadu with lived experiences and therefore I don't talk too soon nor do I speak too indiscreetly. So when I say something, I mean it because I feel it also. I do corroborate with data, with actual ground activities and then only comment. Unfortunately if that is the politics of a state party which has had a lot of ideological support extended to separatist politicians of years gone by whether they support it even today, I do not know but there are periodic voices which come out which are very separatist in tone and tenor. My grief is a national party like the Congress party has been decimated in Tamil Nadu and today till today they are not a position to win an election even a couple of seats on their own without being in alliance with one of these parties. BJP is of course a beginner there. It's been there since the Jansang days and its gaining strength will continue to work with the people but the grief that I want to express is a national party like Congress party also joins that anti-Hindu voice does not condemn the anti-Hindu voice of the party DMK and even worse goes in support of such voices which come from DMK and today not just in Tamil Nadu a Congress party member in the Lok Sabha today meaning he's a sitting Lok Sabha member and a brother of a deputy chief minister in Karnataka also speaks in separatist voice. So anti-Hindu is one and to Hindu activity is another which also is happening in Karnataka incidentally Congress party in Tamil Nadu supports these kind of anti-Hindu or anti-separatist voices and today that is a spirit with which Congress also is aligning which is what I find utterly shocking. Is there an attempt to paint the Bharti-Janta party as a North Indian party and you know this North-South divide encouraging that, is that what you sense? They've always called Bharti-Janta party two things. It is a Brahmin-Bhanya party, it's a Hindi party. Today the kind of support BJP receives in South India, this proves all this and in I don't want to name individuals and say oh he or she belongs to this caste we've promoted this caste and therefore more than BJP I can challenge today is there any one party in India which has worked for the betterment of tribals in India which has worked for the betterment of the Dalit scheduled caste in India which has recalled some of the best iconic leaders coming from those communities but attaining national stature, whether it is Dr. B. R. Ambedkar whether it is Guruji and considered like God himself Brsa Munda whether it is the sons of the Shabzade, Sikh Gurus who gave their lives in their teenage for the sake of a country so in any one of these I want to ask is there any one party in this country which has not, which has as much served as the BJP so what is Hindi party when Prime Minister of India is talking about all languages he quotes Thiruvalluvar, he quotes from Purananur every given opportunity he takes the languages even to the UN so Tamil Nadu's politics, speaking of these kind of things has happily kept the Hindi speaking parts of the country even if they are in alliance with them away from the separatist rhetoric so you think oh we are in alliance with that party they cannot do any wrong but they've been speaking on these separatists earlier they're speaking anti-Hindu earlier only because of the language gap just as they didn't want to learn Hindi many of the North Indians didn't want to learn Tamil so there's never been an understanding a comprehensive complete understanding of what's developed in Tamil Nadu so are you hopeful that the BJP will do better this time in South India I mean how many seats do you see them getting out of 131 seats it's difficult to talk about number of seats but I'm sure the efforts which are being made by Tamil Nadu BJP units it's likely to open your account in these states like Tamil Nadu it certainly works for the people and hope to have their blessings of course Tamil Nadu you have a no, whether it's Kerala, whether it's Tamil Nadu lots of work is happening and people are responding as well are you likely to contest the elections I don't think no it's my party's decision one last question on 2024 what is your assessment how many seats do you think that the BJP is like I'm not sure I'll again speculate on the number of seats better than last time, much better than last time I think people will see the truth and commitment and dedication with which the honorable Prime Minister has been working they are blessing him, they are seeing his earnestness they are seeing how non-stop he puts the people of India and the nation first among everything else so I'm confident the opposition has constantly been crying themselves horse about the use of intelligence agencies so whether it is Kejriwal or Mamta Banerjee's leaders in West Bengal or Hemant Soren more recently they complain that there is harassment by central investigative agencies and if one of the leaders jump on to the other side and join the BJP then they are let go scot free what do you have to say, my last question first of all many of the cases in which the CBI or the enforcement directorate or the income tax pursue cases cannot come to the level of asking for custodial or asking for interrogation or arrest can happen overnight you will be surprised in many of these cases the cases were originally filed during UPA times many of these cases belong to that era you know the Indian system the level and the time consumed for each stage to mature and to reach a stage where people are being served it consumes a lot of time many of these are from that era case so it is not as we have done one second a survey or a search happens tell me if they have come empty handed roomfuls of cash equally when we are talking about common man adopting to technology doing digital payment you have people sitting with tons of currency notes in their homes nowadays everything is videographed I cannot sit here and say I have found so much cash in your house without a proof the video shows in the bathroom in the bedroom in lockers tons of cash being kept what explains that so it is very well to use that as a whip to hit at the ruling party to say you are using the enforcement directorate or CBI these are professional agencies they take huge time to make their cases compact and ready because everything is now monitored by the court once the charge sheet is filed and you have to submit the documents to the court you can't just go there and say I found this I found that records prove it so era is changing people don't like to have corrupt leaders so when the enforcement directorate go and knock at the doors and come out with such pictures common people are saying it you may cry hoars as you said saying it is being politically used I am sorry it is something which was case from your era you filed a case against your own alley there are partners in crime and then there are partners and enemies also thank you so much for answering all the questions you answer economic questions and political questions with equal felicity and passion it is always such a pleasure to speak to you thank you so much thank you very much Rahul I know I have overshot the time I have been given 45 minutes I think I have managed 48 48 no I will ask her if it is comfortable otherwise we can use this in Hindi as well it was a great interview thank you so much I hope you like it next one please go back to deal with us together with very many other reforms like professionalizing public sector banks and so on the emphasis on reform has given us adequate rewards and we will continue doing that that is why even in the budget we have emphasized on transparency we have emphasized on getting everything on board the budget process itself rather than keeping it out of outside of the budget or underneath the carpet these are not small steps and that has been consistently done in the last 4-5 years and before that as I said IBC or banking reforms the 5 major recognition hours as we say of the problem so to list it there are so many some small some very big the small ones having very big implication in making the economy much more cleaner and open and transparent the bigger ones which are bearing results in terms of the money that you collect in GST these are not small steps so that is the one which I would play as important indicators which rating agencies should look at comprehensively rather than look at just one detail here one detail there macroeconomic stability is also very well kept up look glad you mentioned reforms I think big message coming from you that the government will continue on the road for reforms you know what are the I've said this to you before that you know cutting the rich tax last year you know in an election year before that you know cutting the corporate rate tax I mean you've taken some bold measures what are the next level of reforms that we can expect from you broadly I mean directionally no first of all as I said the system to become more transparent more things will have to be done in order to make sure that we work together with states it's one thing for the union government to work on those areas which are exclusively with the central government where there are overlaps there are some states which have come about enthusiastically to say yes we should benefit also from this vibrancy which results after such measures are taken and therefore when reforms are talked about we normally always say three levels where it has to be carried out with the same vigour the central government, the state government and then the local bodies so working with the state governments has already started happening the last few years you see very many areas where we are working together the local body level the municipal urban local bodies, the panchayats we need to have greater interchange of ideas and working together with them also that will also continue now Finance Minister if I were to ask you this one question with the exception of Air India no strategic privatisation any significant whether it is IDBI, Concord SCI, Banks why has your government sort of repeatedly underperformed on this disinvestment aspect, I mean is the thinking changing within the government are you looking at sort of strategic sales and not maybe offer to sell completely is there some shift in the thinking I would want you to first of all put that question into the frame that I have laid in the matter of public sector enterprises policy if a policy framework has been announced and in that we have said that there are only core strategic sectors which government recognises where the government will be having a minimal presence and even in those sectors private sector will be allowed to it will be completely open for them to participate in total in the sense there will not be any one sector inclusive of the core strategic sector which will be exclusively reserved for public sector whereby consolidation will have to happen to make them big enough for a big country like India efficiencies will have to be brought in their values will have to be increased so this question of yours to fit into that frame I will not reverse any of the cabinet approved decisions but at the same time you should probably also have noticed that for each of them we are working to make sure we are not allowing them to remain they are getting disinvested equally we are working to make sure that the valuations are kept up they are improved upon that if you look at the public sector listing listed companies and the valuation in the market today you see the kind of vibrancy which has been brought in to them they share values have gone up the dividends are even much better than earlier so disinvestment is one thing but in bringing value to them and make sure that the markets look at them absolutely favorably in fact the public sector companies have done really well and public markets are also where they are would you consider sort of valuating your stake maybe to 49% in some of the some of the companies they are not government owned but at the same time you have best of both the worlds and the valuations could go up even further no certainly that is not something which has been denied earlier meaning as a matter of policy but in many ways we are already you will see periodically the DEPAM department which takes care of the disinvestment has slowly in trickles released a lot of government's shares into the market so that private ownership can come in and they can take hold of those shares so that is happening already and we would certainly like to make sure that greater participation, public ownership in companies like let's say SBI or ONGC I mean this could be another possibility absolutely thank you one of the big ideas this budget which struck to everyone is a big idea has been the announcement of the corpus of 1 lakh crore you know to provide interest for your low interest sort of loans for research and innovation can you elaborate a little bit on this how will this work will there be a separate sort of entity managing this how will it go forward yes certainly I first of all would bring in a bit of a context to this it's not as if you are doing it now for the first time earlier too there were several funds within different departments like the science and technology they had a CSIR its own firms were all over the place you had them doing supportive activities for innovation each from their own side two years ago I remember announcing the National Research Foundation which brought together all these spread resources to one pool and from there each of the departments would claim whatever they would want to fund in terms of innovation supportive activities but what we have now done is they may remain so but the government would now bring in a kind of an institution or a vehicle which can take this 1 lakh crore which will be given to them next few years in total as an interest free corpus amount using that they can then identify innovation related exercises which are happening in the private sector and fund them I may give this interest free 50 year loan to the corpus but the managers of that fund will then decide to whom at what cost should they give it and vary depending on the risk factors and the judgment of the professionals will manage it but it is certainly a fund from where private innovation will be supported I am sure you will be asked this question in future but the allocation for CAPEX at 11.1 lakh crore does it seem like a lefty goal considering that you could not even do 10 lakh crore in this year no but not really we have done only 2 lakh 3 lakh that's not the case we are closer to 10 it's also because absorption has its own limits whether it's the state saw the departments within government of India when the capital expenditure is undertaken through the outlets given to them it is only that much within 12 months that they can do and not beyond so sometimes reaching the target however ambitious it is is to the last mile difficult within 12 months had we given them a few more months they will probably even complete that but the condition for these capital expenditure which I have announced since last 2 years 3 years is that that amount should be utilized within the year so many of the state governments which take the money which are very in implementing in fact states very enthusiastic in wanting to avail of this facility the difficulty comes that if you restrict them to using it within 12 months and which is what we aim at we want them to use it within 12 months so I am not saying restrict in that sense but within 12 months when you are expected to spend that money there are times when completely utilizing it becomes difficult they partly use this that is why 10 lakhs you might reach 9.2 and not touch 10 9.2 within a matter of 12 is I think good enough so to increase it to 11 I am very hopeful it will definitely get used and the amounts which are being given to states are also having high utilization you know if I am right you get a sense that there is an indication of tapering of government spending you know I know we discussed this in our last interview as well you expect private sector also now to do some heavy lifting so we are seeing some of the sectors looking at now there are investments in steel, aviation, power, machinery some but are you happy with the level of private sector participation you said that you know they are like honeymoon and honeymoon has no idea of you know his own power when do you think that this honeymoon will lift the economy mountain well I think as you said they are coming out there is investment happening the PIL PIL PIL scheme is also helping them so investments in newer areas do have a slightly longer gestation period it is not as if their brownfield projects are getting additional money that also is happening but the interest in the sunrise sector is really obvious now people are taking a lot of interest and you are seeing them coming forward that is happening news you know one more question on the stress that has been seen in the rural economy you know your higher allocation outlay to Mandrega also is an indication betrays the stress in the rural economy if you look at the results of FNCG companies consumerism companies you know even if you look at the Milsen data it shows that the rural value and growth has underperformed urban value and growth for almost 7 quarters now in a way so what is your progress if you will demand and how do you think we will deal with this going forward I am not sure I will be able to describe how I view what is happening in the rural areas let us recognize that there is a lot of shift in the way employment is spanning out let us recognize that migration is now looking at redefining itself in a way many people who went back to the villages with some skills acquired are wondering if they can continue being there and utilizing and benefitting from the skills that they have acquired industries too today are allowing a lot of work from home and many who are avoiding traveling are also staying back so that shift will have to be recognized but equally that is not to say people are staying back home without work or staying back and working from there with large companies being established everywhere else so there is this transition happening undoubtedly second there is also this little savings which is coming through which we are seeing from the various fixed deposits which are growing almost different from small savings you are also seeing some middle class looking at savings through the stock markets, DMAT accounts and so on so the indicators with which we are looking at the rural economy may vary and there are very many newer indicators which we may not want to miss out on yes I agree FMC market will also tell us that consumable, durable consumables are not being consumed as much as before well I take that as one indicator but equally the kind of activities which are now happening in the rural areas because of better connectivity because of other digitization are also yet to be measured I would think okay this is something related to the job market especially if you look at the campus recruitment in engineering colleges and MBA colleges so on one side there is this the economy is doing well and all indicators point to that but on the other hand campus recruitment this year has been muted salaries have been lower many students have not got a job offer yet how do you see this in relation to the overall big picture the question about employment I am afraid we are repeatedly focusing only on those indicators pertaining to the formal economy which is important I am not denying its role so college recruitment I am like campuses are important but equally the jobs that are getting created in the middle and lower order are not getting counted at all I would look at the way in which banks and the credit of tech is happening in small and medium businesses the new companies which have got registered which is a data which I have put out from the MCA the number of new companies which have started are certainly not people who are being recruited for jobs they are people who are investing money believing in their skills registering a company and probably giving jobs for others why would new companies get registered in a bigger number than before if employment is not being offered companies cannot operate in vacuum without human beings in them so I think a fairer open and an exhaustive picture of India's employment both in the formal and non formal areas will have to have some kind of a wider base with which and we need to bring in such data so that the discussion can be more informed and some of I think the global slowdown is also having an impact on our jobs especially at the higher end I am campuses or engineering colleges equally because of the way in which artificial intelligence is coming the kind of job requirements that are expected of new recruits are also changing so the people with old skill sets are now expected to have additional newer skill sets for entering into a certain area which still now did not exist so we are certain lots of calibrations are required in understanding this that's right yesterday in your budget speech you were very appreciative of the number of income tax payers the number of income tax people paying income tax has gone up collections are up 2.4 times you were quite appreciative in fact I thought you just stopped sort of giving them something back because it was a vote on account my question is salary people are paying 30% today whereas corporates pay 22% tax in the long term corporates meaning as an entity so I am sending the longer term directionally do you think this would you would align this in some way or the other and I am talking about the longer term when the direct taxation reforms are a steady job in the pipeline and some results come out and more work is happening so direct taxation is something on which one is of the tax payers facilitation which has to be improved one of the things happened yesterday one of the serving the customer better business in the taxation regime happened yesterday but more work can always be done yes so salary can be more hopeful in the coming days I am not saying anything now I mean directionally over the long term you managed inflation very well in the past few years what about food inflation that is really pinching the common man pulses are up 20% 27% any plan to sort of rein in food inflation see food inflation cannot be spoken as one basket yes or one item it has so many different components if pulses are becoming more expensive we are import dependent to meet adequacy in meeting the demand in the sense we are not self sufficient we need to import to meet our demand and when you depend on imports the prices are determined by the supplier not by us so when it is pulse or dal where the prices have to be controlled so much has to be done well in advance if you know your crop is only X and not what you need then you pre-plan imports you have to touch on many countries to get the imports and so on and in that of course the rule of the traders is very important that is one thing second is you are looking at other seasonal vegetables which can equally be affected by drought or by excess rain no import substitution or no import in the last minute can help us if suddenly one particular crop say of potatoes or onions or tomatoes are lost the last minute procurement from somewhere else is also fraught with difficulties so the treatment for controlling price for pulses and the perishable crops and let's say rice which can be stored are all very different and that is why there is a committee in government of India which looks into this and makes sure that periodically you are able to get in time based on estimates it's an ongoing job it's not with a deadline it has to keep happening and I think largely the committee has been successful otherwise we couldn't have been closer to the policy range I had interviewed the prime minister in 2016 as early as that and he spoke about the white paper he said that we should come out with the white paper because we inherited an economy which was in the fragile 5 and that was early you know just 2 years into the government and what we had to really do to drag it out of you know the levels it had reached you spoke similarly yesterday about the white paper and you said it was a herculean task to bring the economy back from the brink what is the idea behind the white paper why now and will it be another stick to beat the opposition with see you are right in pointing out that the honorable prime minister has spoken about it in 2016 in your interview then it was so many different sections of our society themselves suggested to us that you better bring a white paper out to say why Indian economy has reached the fragile 5 to say why our banks had become such a black hole nothing could be restored of the banks banks were all in deep trouble look at the number of MPAs and the value of the MPAs meaning what was the original value and to what extent they had reached almost close to value less positions so whether it was your banks whether it was overall economy whether it was defense procurement whether it was a vital sector of telecom why even minerals every area is ridden with problems now if you are talking of corruption well it is one thing it goes to the court people get punished and then the monies are given back are not given back values are retrieved are not retrieved that is one side of the story but what impact it left on the economy to restore your banks back to health to make sure your country is safe with adequate strategic equipment given to defense personnel to make sure that your mines which are wealth under the earth meaning inside the earth under the soil to use them for the benefit of the country rather than to use them as one instrument through which you line your own pocket what implications it had on the economy banks not being healthy mines being given to brothers and sisters who did not want to extract the mineral for the benefit of the country spectrum allocations if it had happened in time I didn't have to spend so much to restore BSNL to have 2G or 4G in time and what implication does it have on the country when 4G is not available in time whereas the whole world is talking about 5G yes so the kind of impact that it had the mismanagement it is not just talking about dialysis for a fragile 5 it is talking about every one of these steps which one morally which morally was immoral in a sense was not right and equally the kind of positive effect if it had happened very well in a transparent fashion it would have had on the economy we lost 10 glorious years and to restore it to that position back and then to pull it up to now get closer to the world's third largest economy is a herculean task which I am grateful this country had a Prime Minister like Modi ji who single-mindedly said I will restore this economy back it's my service to the nation otherwise it wouldn't have happened so why the white paper now we've had 10 years and prior to that there was a 10 years where you saw all this happening policy, corruption nation making its endowments and so on 10 years under Prime Minister Modi what kind of course corrections had to happen what kind of restoring confidence had to happen what kind of pulling back from rut that had to happen and equally making sure you're purchasing the equipments you're removing BSNL from distress you're making sure BSNL employees are given the due you're making sure the country gets 5G not just 4G look at the coverage India has in 5G today all this and to make sure that the investor confidence is not just intact but is growing that within a matter of 8 years I would say we've reached 596 billion US dollars as our foreign exchange reserve just compare that with the last 10 years at least for the sake of the elected honourable representatives who are sitting in the parliament they should know what was it then what effort it took to restore it here and what we should not therefore ever imagine a dream of doing in personal interest forgetting the nation why now parliament should know to at that time had Prime Minister Modi not taken the call that in the interest of our nation I would not bring it out he didn't bring the paper then why paper then because you put the nation first you say if I do it now I can be happy but the confidence in our country would have been lost our investors wouldn't have come our own people would have lost faith in the systems they would say oh my god this government will come each away and go that next government can come it will do its own but we are all languishing the faith in institutions in government, in leaders, in politics would have been lost in the minds of people and I am so grateful that the prime minister didn't do it then he restored it all put India on such a wonderful track becoming third largest economy and then so that all of us know what it took and what we shouldn't do in the future this paper so when do you take on it passionate reply from you I must say when it comes to the markets Nehru La Sita Raman can do no wrong last two, three years markets have been on a roll the question is can you assure the markets and its participants that there will be stability in the capital gains tax regime and I ask this question because last year you tweaked the debt market the debt mutual funds in your budget speech so is there stability around the corner in the foreseeable future policy says stability is one thing which prime minister really lays a lot of emphasis on he doesn't like periodic tweaking he would tell you it's only two years it's only three years let it play out let it settle down and so on so he is never in favour of quick twists and turns and this is not me saying people who have observed them for his tenure as chief minister will know that the biggest strength under prime minister Modi is stability in policy so that's a similar line reply that I can give for it but there are no surprises I mean long term stability in policy another question current question RBI has imposed restrictions on the operations of the Paytm Payments Bank I don't want to go into the details but just a question is what is your message to the fintech industry is there more than meets the eye in this case or are we going to be cautious when it comes to the fintech sector I don't want to comment on any one particular company but fintech is an area in which all of us are very enthusiastic India has contributed a lot in this sector India's contribution in this sector has been globally recognised today if people are looking at solutions fintech solutions they are looking to India our youth have contributed a lot and built capacities for themselves this is an area which we certainly like to work with and encourage I am not commenting on any one let's thank you for the message you have been typing things around would you think that the RBI should lose in now well RBI does take its own call but I will appreciate the RBI for working together with the stakeholders and I am sure they take a call that keeping growth in mind they have been steady I suppose they will continue to be steady is my expectation and hope few quick political questions I am aware of the time thank you for answering all our business and economic questions at great length we have seen a different side of Nirmalasi Taraman in the last few weeks you have also been seen as an aggressive politician you have turned the heat on your rivals in Tamil Nadu you said that Stalin's DMK is an anti-Hindu party and that they were forbidden the live telecast of the Pranketistan ceremony what do you have to say to that 100% I have not said a loose word I did mean what I say and I do truly believe that repeatedly they attack on Hindus in Tamil Nadu in layers which are seen in layers which are not seen have been felt for a long time I speak very many times about Tamil Nadu with lived experiences and therefore I don't talk too soon nor do I speak too indiscreetly so when I say something I get it because I feel it also I do collaborate with data with actual ground activities and then only comment unfortunately if that is the politics of a state party which has had a lot of ideological support extended to separatist politicians of years gone by whether they support it even today I do not know but there are periodic voices which come out which are very separatist in tone antenna my grief is a national party like the congress party has been decimated in Tamil Nadu and today till today they are not a position to win an election even a couple of seats on their own without being in alliance with one of these parties BJP is of course a beginner there its been there since the Jansung days and its gaining strength will continue to work with the people but the grief that I want to express is a national party like congress party also joins that anti-Hindu voice does not condemn the anti-Hindu voice of the party DMK and even worse goes in support of such voices which come from DMK and today not just in Tamil Nadu a congress party member in the Lok Sabha today meaning is a sitting Lok Sabha member and a brother of a deputy chief minister in Karnataka also speaks in separatist voice so anti-Hindu is one and to Hindu activity is another which also is happening in Karnataka incidentally congress party in Tamil Nadu supports these kind of anti-Hindu or anti-separatist voices and today that is a spirit with which congress also is aligning which is what I find utterly shocking is there an attempt to paint the Bhati Janta party not Indian party and you know this not south divide encouraging that they have always called Bhati Janta party two things it is a Brahmin Baniya party it's a Hindi party today the kind of support BJP receives in south India this proves all this and in I don't want to name individuals and say he or she belongs to this caste we promoted this caste and therefore more than BJP I can challenge today is there any one party in India which has worked for the betterment of tribals in India which has worked for the betterment of the Dalits say schedule caste in India which has recalled some of the best iconic leaders coming from those communities but attaining national stature whether it is Dr. B. R. Ambedkar whether it is Guruji and considered like God himself Bursa Munda whether it is the sons of the Shabzade Sikh Gurus who gave their lives in their teenage for the sake of our country so in any one of these I want to ask is there any one party in this country which has not which has as much served as the BJP so what is Hindi party when Prime Minister of India is talking about all languages he quotes Thiruvalluvar he quotes from Puranamuru every given opportunity he takes the languages even to the UN so Tamil Nadu's politics speaking of these kind of things has happily kept the Hindi speaking parts of the country even if they are in alliance with them away from the separatist rhetoric so you think oh we are in alliance with that party they cannot do any wrong but they have been speaking on these separatists earlier they are speaking anti-Hindu earlier only because of the language gap just as they didn't want to learn Hindi many of the North Indians didn't want to learn Tamil so there has never been an understanding a comprehensive complete understanding of what's developed in Tamil Nadu so are you hopeful that the BJP will do better this time in South India I mean how many seats do you see them getting out of 131 seats it's difficult to talk about number of seats but I'm sure the efforts which are being made by Tamil Nadu BJP unit it's likely to open a recount in these states like Tamil Nadu we certainly work for the people and hope to have their blessings Tamil Nadu you have whether it's Kerala, whether it's Tamil Nadu lots of work is happening and people are responding as well are you likely to contest the elections I don't think no it's my party's decision last question on 2024 what is your assessment how many seats do you think that the BJP is likely I'm not sure I'll again speculate on the number of seats better than last time, much better than last time I think people will see the truth and commitment and dedication with which the honorable Prime Minister has been working they are blessing him they are seeing his earnestness they are seeing how he puts the people of India and the nation first among everything else so I'm confident the opposition has constantly been crying themselves hoarse about the use of intelligence agencies whether it is Kejriwal or Mantabh Anurjee's leaders in West Bengal or Haiman Surin more recently they complain that there is harassment by central investigative agencies and if the leaders jump on to the other side and join the BJP then they are let go scot free what do you have to say my last question first of all many of the cases in which the CBI or the enforcement directorate or the income tax pursue cases cannot come to the level of asking for custodial or asking for interrogation or arrest happen overnight you will be surprised in many of these cases the cases were originally filed during upa times many of these cases belong to that era you know the Indian system the level and the time consumed for each stage to mature and to reach a stage where summons are being served it consumes a lot of time many of these are from that era case so it's not as we've done one second a survey or a search happens tell me if they've come empty handed roomfuls of cash equally when we are talking about common man adopting to technology doing digital payment you have people sitting with tons of currency notes in their homes nowadays everything is videographed I can't sit here and say I've so much cash in your house without a proof the video shows in the bathroom in the bedroom in lockers tons of cash being kept what explains that so it's very well to use that as a whip to hit at the ruling party to say you're using the enforcement directorate or CBI these are professional agencies they take huge time to make their cases compact and ready because everything is now monitored by the court once the charge sheet is filed yes and you have to submit the documents to the court you can't just go there and say I found this I found that records prove it so era is changing people don't like to have corrupt leaders so when the enforcement directorate go and knock at the doors come out with such pictures common people are seeing it you may cry hoars as you said saying it is being politically used I'm sorry it is something which was case from your era you filed a case against your own alley there are partners in crime and then there are partners and enemies also thank you so much for answering all the questions you have economic questions and political questions with equal felicity and passion it's always such a pleasure to speak to you thank you so much together with very many other reforms like professionalizing public sector banks and so on the emphasis on reform has given us adequate rewards and we'll continue doing that that is why even in the budget we have emphasized on transparency we have emphasized on getting everything on board the budget process itself rather than keeping it outside of the budget or underneath the carpet these are not small steps and that has been consistently done in the last four five years and before that as I said IBC or banking reforms the five major recognition ours as we say so to list it there are so many the small ones having very big implication in making the economy much more cleaner and open and transparent the bigger ones which are bearing results in terms of the money that you collect in GST these are not small steps so that is the one which I would play as important indicators which rating agencies should look at comprehensively rather than look at just one detail here one detail there macroeconomic stability is also very well kept up look glad you mentioned reforms I think big message coming from you that the government will continue on the road for reforms you know what are the I've said this to you before that cutting the rich tax last year in an election year before that cutting the corporate tax some bold measures what are the next level of reforms that we can expect from you broadly I mean directionally no first of all as I said the system to become more transparent more things will have to be done in order to make sure that we work together with states it's one thing for the union government to work on those areas which are exclusively with the central government but where there are overlaps there are some states which have come about enthusiastically to say yes we should benefit also from this vibrancy which results after such measures are taken and therefore when reforms are talked about we normally always say three levels where it has to be carried out with the same vigor the central government, the state government and then the local bodies now working with the state governments has already started happening the last few years you see there are many areas where we are working together the local body level the municipal urban local bodies the panchayats we need to have greater interchange of ideas and working together with them also that will also continue now Finance Minister if I were to ask you this one question with the exception of Air India no strategic privatization has taken place any significant whether it is IDBI Concord, SCI banks why has your government repeatedly underperformed on this disinvestment aspect is the thinking changing within the government are you looking at strategic sales and not maybe offered to sell completely is there some shift in the thinking I would want you to first of all put that question into the frame that I have laid in the matter of public sector policy if a policy framework has been announced and in that we have said that there are only core strategic sectors which government recognizes where the government will be having a minimal presence and even in those sectors private sector will be allowed to it will be completely open for them to participate in total in the sense there will not be any one sector inclusive of the core strategic sector which will be exclusively reserved for public sector whereby consolidation will have to happen to make them big enough for a big country like India efficiencies will have to be brought in their values will have to be increased so this question of yours will have to fit into that frame I will not reverse any of the other cabinet approved decisions but at the same time you should probably also have noticed that for each of them we are working to make sure they are not allowing them to win they are getting disinvested for giving us this exclusive very special interview like every year after the budget through our news 18 network through CNBC CNN news 18 we will be able to reach every nook and corner of the country and investors are glued into moneycontrol.com tracking every twist and turn of the budget thank you so much my first question a somewhat obvious question no SOPs no populist measures even in 2019 the government had announced some SOPs like tax rebates there were some announcements for the farmers the confident prime minister going into 2024 elections you've never looked more relaxed to me before what was going on in your mind while drafting this well thank you for having me after the budget like every year it's a great opportunity to talk to your viewers and also for others who are watching this program more with keenness to know about the Indian economy yes the budget yesterday did not have any SOPs announced we treated it like a true vote on account an interim budget before an election and also an interim budget which is being presented with a clear understanding that the several programs which were launched with empowerment of citizens in mind over the last 10 years are reaching the ground and the beneficiaries are already on their own speaking about it the power of word of mouth is very strong so when a beneficiary gets truly the benefit and without any middleman playing a role in it they really understand that the intent of the government is what they've said is what is getting executed so I place a lot of trust in the word of mouth which has helped in schemes like Ujjula PM Avaaz Yojana PM Mudra Yojana Swannidhi Yojana all of which have benefited the small households small people who want to do the goodness and who don't have money to give for collateral no properties to give as actually because of the vision with which PM is committed to serve this country is actually serving the common people in letter and spirit and that is recognized by the people themselves it's not as if you are saying and you are showing target numbers you are showing achievement numbers no, the people in the ground are saying about it I've got it and so is my neighbour and so on and that is why I have used an expression and I mean it when I've said it that this is secularism in action this is where we have not shown any difference between members belonging to this community or that community this religion or that religion or somebody is relative and not relative no difference the project reaches the ground who deserves to get it and if they are eligible they get it irrespective of who they are and therefore in every way the principle of empowerment the sabka sath, sabka vishwas sabka vikas has been executed in every way and that has the sense of confidence that the blessings of the people are not just at the time when we gave promises but the blessings are even now coming in abundantly to say yes you've kept up your word it is what the prime minister has also been talking about the four casts as he calls it you know the poor, women, farmers you so I think that is the cornerstone of this part of this speech Nirmala ji you've steered the economy in difficult times you know if I look at your last last five years there's been the pandemic right now two wars are going on even then we are projected to grow at 7.3% now if I were to look at the nominal GDP which has grown only 10.5% consider an inflation of 4.5% do you think that 7% itself would be challenging I mean do you think it is realistic for us to grow on those lines? the chief economic advisor has also commented in his preface is elaborated on how 7% is not difficult to achieve globally also the various organizations which look at economies of all countries like IMF for instance has also enhanced their own assessment so upgrading our growth estimates is not just singularly our business people are saying that fundamentally a lot of activities are happening the robustness of the economy has not slackened anywhere it has maintained its you know the buoyancy with which things are happening not just revenue collection when I'm talking of buoyancy so there is reason to believe yes it is possible and the deflator not just the inflation but the deflator itself is constantly we are looking at controlling inflation the other factors fall in place so the deflator itself then plays a role and therefore we are confident that on the one hand we will be able to manage inflation and on the other to keep the robustness in growth so that it is sustained growth we have made every effort to look at both growth driving elements and inclusivity driving elements so that nobody is left out from this growth process both to contribute and to gain from indeed you know something that has been commented enough and you've got a lot of accolades for it in this budget if you look at the fiscal glide path I think you've beaten estimates you know this year you've projected 5.1 next year so that also looks promising what is your message to the sovereign agencies you're expecting an upgrade well I would think that they do their job but periodically it's our business also to bring it to their notice that economy particularly emerging market economy like India despite the odds we are doing a lot of reforms systemic reforms which actually you're seeing is bearing the results now if only Prime Minister Modi hadn't pressed the pedal let's say the revving pedal the accelerator during Covid even as we are managing Covid we will have to attend to reforms and continue doing the reforms the Atman-Nirbar Bharat announcements were all infused with so much of reform missions otherwise we wouldn't have eliminated more than 68,000 rules which were just so archaic and were becoming instruments for rent-seeking people so systemic reforms have continued whether it was pre-Covid, GST and IBC together with very many other reforms like professionalizing public sector banks and so on the emphasis on reform has given us adequate rewards and we'll continue doing that that is why even in the budget we have emphasized on transparency we have emphasized on getting everything on board the budget process itself rather than keeping it outside of the budget or underneath the carpet these are not small steps and that has been consistently done in the last 4-5 years and before that as I said in the GST or banking reforms the 5 major recognition hours as we say of the problem so to list it there are so many some small, some very big the small ones having very big implication in making the economy much more cleaner and open and transparent the bigger ones which are bearing results in terms of the money that you collect these are not small steps so that is the one which I would play as important indicators which rating agencies should look at comprehensively rather than look at just one detail here, one detail there macroeconomic stability is also very well kept up I'm glad you mentioned reforms I think big message coming from you that the government will continue on the road for reforms what are the I've said this to you before that cutting the rich tax last year in an election year before that cutting the corporate rate tax I mean you've taken some bold measures what are the next level of reforms that we can expect from you broadly, I mean directionally first of all as I said the system to become more transparent more things will have to be done in order to make sure that we work together with states to work on those areas which are exclusively with the central government but where there are overlaps there are some states which have come about enthusiastically to say yes we should benefit also from this vibrancy which results after such measures are taken and therefore when reforms are talked about we normally always say three levels where it has to be carried out with the same the central government, the state government and then the local bodies now working with the state governments has already started happening the last few years you see very many areas where we are working together the local body level the municipal urban local bodies, the panchayats we need to have greater interchange of ideas and working together with them also that will also continue now Finance Minister if I were to ask you this one question the exception of Air India no strategic privatization has taken place, any significant whether it is IDBI Concord, SCI Banks why has your government repeatedly underperformed on this disinvestment aspect is the thinking changing within the government are you looking at strategic sales and not maybe offer to sell completely is there some shift in the thinking I want you to first of all put that question into the frame that I have laid in the matter of public sector enterprises policy if a policy framework has been announced and in that we have said that there are only core strategic sectors which government recognizes where the government will be having a minimal presence and even in those sectors private sector will be allowed to completely open for them to participate in total in the sense there will not be any one sector inclusive of the core strategic sector which will be exclusively reserved for public sector whereby consolidation will have to happen to make them big enough for a big country like India efficiencies will have to be brought in their values will have to be increased so this question of yours will have to fit into that frame I will not reverse any of the cabinet approved decisions but at the same time you should probably also have noticed that for each of them we are working to make sure we are not allowing them to remain there till they are getting disinvested equally we are working to make sure that their valuations are kept up they are improved upon that if you look at the public sector listing listed companies and their valuation in the market today you see the kind of vibrancy which has been brought in into them they share values have gone up the dividends are even much better than earlier absolutely so disinvestment is one thing but in bring in value to them and make sure that the markets look at them absolutely favorably in fact the public sector companies have done really well and public markets are also where they are would you consider sort of diluting your stake maybe to 49% in some of the companies thereby they are not government owned but at the same time you have best of both the worlds and the valuations could go up even further certainly that is not something which has been denied earlier meaning as a matter of policy but in many ways we are already you will see periodically the DEPAM department which takes care of the disinvestment has slowly in trickles released a lot of government shares into the market so that private ownership can come in and they can take hold of those shares so that is happening already and we certainly like to make sure that greater participation public ownership in companies like AI or ONGC this could be another possibility thank you one of the big ideas this budget which struck to everyone is a big idea has been the announcement of a corpus of 1 lakh crore to provide interest free or low interest sort of loans for research and innovation can you elaborate a little bit on this how will this work will there be a separate sort of entity managing this how will it go forward I first of all would bring in a bit of a context to this it is not as if we are doing it now for the first time earlier too they were several funds within different departments like the science and technology they had CSIR its own funds were all over the place you had them doing supportive activities for innovation each from their own site two years ago I remember using the national research foundation which brought together all these you know thinly spread resources to one pool and from there each of the department would claim whatever they would want to fund in terms of innovation supportive activities but what we have now done is they may remain so but the government would now bring in a kind of an institution or a vehicle which can take this one lakh crore which will be given to them next few years in total as a interest free corpus amount using that they can then identify innovation related exercises which are happening in private sector and fund them I may give this interest free 50 year loan to the corpus but the managers of that fund will then decide to whom at what cost should they give it the cost may vary depending on the risk factors and the judgment of the professionals will manage it but it's certainly a fund from where private innovation will be supported I'm sure you'll be asked this question in future but you know the allocation for capex at 11.1 lakh crore does it seem like a lofty goal considering that you know you could not even do 10 lakh crore in this year no but not really we've done only 2 lakh, 3 lakh that's not the case we're closer to 10 it's also because absorption has its own limits whether it's the states or the departments within government of India when the capital expenditure is undertaken through the outlays given to them it is only that much within 12 months and not beyond so sometimes reaching the target however ambitious it is is to the last mile difficult within 12 months had we given them a few more months they will probably even complete that but the condition for these capital expenditure which I have announced since last 2 years 3 years is that that amount should be utilized within the year so many of the state governments which take the money which are very implementing in fact states very enthusiastic in wanting to avail of this facility the difficulty comes that if you restrict them to using it within 12 months and which is what we aim at we want them to use it within 12 months so I'm not saying restrict in that sense but within 12 months when you are expected to spend that money there are times when completely utilizing it becomes difficult that is why 10 lakhs you might reach 9.2 and not touch 10 but achieving 9.2 within a matter of 12 is I think good enough so to increase it to 11 I'm very hopeful it will definitely get used and the amounts which are being given to states are also having high utilization Duna ji if I'm right we get a sense that there is an indication of tapering of government spending you know I know you've discussed this in our last interview as well you expect private sector also now to do some heavy lifting so we are seeing some of the sectors looking up now there are investments in steel, aviation power, machinery but are you happy with the level of private sector participation you said that they are like Hanuman and Hanuman has no idea of his own power when do you think that this Hanuman will lift the economy in the future? Well I think as you said they are coming out there is investment happening the PIL PIL scheme is also helping them so investments in newer areas do have a slightly longer gestation period it's not as if their brownfield projects are getting additional money that also is happening but the interest in the sunrise sector is really obvious now people are taking a lot of interest and you are seeing them coming forward That's happening news you know one more question on the stress that is being seen in the rural economy you know your higher allocation outlay to Manrega also is an indication betrays the stress on rural economy you know if you look at the results of FMCG companies, consumer journal companies you know even if you look at the Nielsen data it shows that the rural volume growth has underperformed urban volume growth for almost 7 quarters now in a row so what is your prognosis of rural demand and how do you think we will deal with this going forward I am not sure I will be able to describe how I view what is happening in the rural areas let us recognize that there is a lot of shift in the way employment is running out let us recognize that migration is now looking at redefining itself in a way many people who went back to their villages with some skills acquired are wondering if they can continue being there and utilizing and benefiting from the skills that they have acquired industries too today are allowing a lot of work from home and many who are avoiding traveling are also staying back so the shift will have to be recognized but equally that is not to say people are staying back home without work or staying back and working from there with large companies being established everywhere is so there is a transition happening undoubtedly second there is also this little savings which is coming through which we are seeing from the various fixed deposits which are growing as different from small savings you are also seeing some middle class looking at savings through the stock markets the math accounts and so on so the indicators with which we are looking at the rural economy may vary and there are very many newer indicators which we may not want to miss out on yes I agree FMC G market will also tell us that consumable, durable consumables are not being consumed as much as before but well I take that as one indicator but equally the kind of activities which are now happening in the rural areas because of better connectivity because of other digitization also yet to be measured I would think one thing related to the job market especially if you look at the campus recruitment in engineering colleges and MBA colleges so on one side there is this the economy is doing well and all indicators point to that but on the other hand the campus recruitment this year has been muted salaries have been lower many students have not got a job offer yet how do you see this in relation to the overall big picture the question about employment I am afraid we are repeatedly focusing only on those indicators pertaining to the formal economy which is important I am not denying its role so college recruitments I am like campuses are important but equally the jobs that are getting created in the middle and lower order are not getting counted at all I would look at the way in which banks and their credit of take is happening in small and medium businesses the new companies which have got registered which is a data which I have put out from the MCA the number of new companies which have started are certainly not people who are being recruited for jobs they are people who are investing money believing in their skills registering a company and probably giving jobs for others why would new companies get registered in a bigger number than before if employment is not being offered companies cannot operate in vacuum without human beings in them so I think a fairer open an exhaustive picture of India's employment both in the formal and non formal areas will have to have some kind of a wider base with which and we need to bring in such data so that the discussion can be more informed and some of I think the global slowdown is also having an impact on our jobs especially at the higher end I mean I am campuses or engineering colleges etc equally because of the way in which artificial intelligence is coming the kind of job requirements that are expected of new recruits are also changing so the people with old skill sets are now expected to have additional newer skill sets for entering into a certain area which still now did not exist so we have a certain lots of calibrations are required in understanding this that's right in terms of budget speech you were very appreciative of income tax payers in fact the number of income tax people paying income tax has gone up collections are up 2.4 times you were quite appreciative in fact I thought you just stopped short of giving them something back because it was a vote on account my question is that salary people are paying 30% today whereas corporates pay 22% tax corporates meaning as an entity that's right so I am saying in the longer term directionally do you think this would you would align this in some way or the other and I am talking about the longer term when the direct taxation reforms are a steady job in the pipeline and some results come out and more work is happening so direct taxation is something on which we one is of the tax payers facilitation which has to be improved and also one of the things happened yesterday one of the serving the customer better business in the taxation regime happened yesterday but more work can always be done so the salary can be more hopeful in the coming days I am not saying anything now I am in directionally over the long term you managed inflation very well in the past few years you know what about food inflation you know that's really interesting the common man pulses are up 20% vegetables 27% any plan to sort of reign in food inflation see food inflation cannot be spoken as one basket or one item it has so many different components if pulses are becoming more expensive we are import dependent to meet adequacy in meeting their demand in the sense we are not self sufficient we need to import to meet our demand and when you depend on imports the prices are determined by the supplier not by us so when it is pulse or dal where the prices have to be controlled so much has to be done well in advance if you know your crop is only X and not what you need then you pre-plan imports you have to touch on very many countries to get the imports and so on and in that of course the role of the traders is very important that is one thing second is you are looking at other seasonal vegetables which can equally be affected by drought or by excess rain no import substitution or no import the last minute can help us if suddenly one particular crop say of potatoes or onions or tomatoes are lost the last minute procurement from somewhere else is also cropped with difficulties so the treatment for controlling price for pulses and the perishable crops and let's say rice which can be stored are all very different and that is why there is a committee in government of India which looks into this and make sure that periodically you are able to get in time those based on estimates it's an ongoing job it's not with a deadline it has to keep happening and I think largely the committee has been successful otherwise we couldn't have been closer to the policy range you know I had interviewed the prime minister in 2016 as early as that and he spoke about the white paper he said that we should come out with the white paper because we inherited an economy which was in the fragile fire and that was just two years into the government and what we had to really do to drag it out of the levels it had reached you spoke similarly yesterday about the white paper and you said it was a Herculean task to bring the economy back from the brink what is the idea behind the white paper why now and will it be another stick to be the opposition then see you are right in pointing out that the honorable prime minister has spoken about it even in 2016 in your interview then it was so many different sections of our society themselves suggested to us that you better bring a white paper out to say why Indian economy has reached the fragile fire to say why our banks had become such a black hole nothing could be restored of the banks banks were all in deep trouble look at the number of NPAs and the value of the NPAs meaning what was the original value and to what extent they had reached almost close to value less positions so whether it was your banks whether it was the overall economy whether it was defense procurement whether it was the vital sector of telecom why even minerals every area was ridden with problems now if you're talking of corruption well it's one thing it goes to the court people get punished and then the money is given back or not given back values are retrieved or not retrieved that's one side of the story but what impact it left on the economy to restore your banks back to health to make sure your country is safe with adequate strategic equipment given to defense person to make sure that your minds which are wealth under the earth meaning inside the earth under the soil to use them for the benefit of the country rather than to use them as one instrument through which you line your own pocket what implications it had on the economy banks not being healthy minds being given to brothers and sisters who did not want to distract the mineral for the benefit of the country spectrum allocations if it had happened in time I didn't have to spend so much to restore BSNL to have 2G or 4G in time and what implication does it have on the country when 4G is not available in time whether whereas the whole world is talking about 5G so the kind of impact that it had the mismanagement it is not just talking about you know policy paralysis for a fragile 5 it's talking about every one of these steps which one in morally which number one morally was immoral in the sense was not right and equally the kind of positive effect if it had happened very well in a transparent fashion it would have had on the economy lost 10 glorious years and to restore it to that position back and then to pull it up to now get closer to the world's third largest economy is a herculean task which I am grateful this country had a prime minister like Modi ji who single-mindedly said I will restore this economy back it's my service to the nation otherwise it wouldn't have happened so why the white paper now we've had 10 years and prior to that there was a 10 years where you saw all this happen policy paralysis corruption, nation its endowments and so on 10 years under prime minister Modi what kind of course corrections had to happen what kind of restoring confidence had to happen what kind of pulling back from rut that had to happen and equally making sure you're purchasing the equipments you're removing BSNL from distress you're making sure BSNL employees are given the due you're making sure the country gets 5G not just 4G look at the coverage India has in 5G today all this and to make sure that the investor confidence is not just intact but is growing that within a year of 8 years I would say we've reached 596 billion US dollars as our foreign exchange reserve just compare that with the last 10 years at least for the sake of the elected honorable representatives who are sitting in the parliament they should know what was it then what effort it took to restore it here and what we should not therefore imagine or dream of doing in personal interest forgetting the nation why now parliament should know to at that time had Prime Minister Modi not taken the call that in the interest of our nation I would not bring it out he didn't bring the paper then white paper then because you put the nation first you say if I do it now I can be happy confidence in our country would have been lost investors wouldn't have come our own people would have lost faith in the systems they would say oh my god this government will come eat away and go that next government can come it will do its own but we are all languishing the faith in institutions in government in leaders in politics would have been lost in the minds of people and I am so grateful that the prime minister didn't do it then he restored it all put India on such a wonderful track towards becoming third largest economy and then so that all of us know what it took and what we shouldn't do in the future this paper when do you table it passionate reply from you I must say Nirmala Ji when it comes to the markets Nirmala Sitaraman can do no wrong last 2-3 years markets have been on a roll my question is can you assure the markets and its participants that there will be stability in the capital gains tax regime and I ask this question because last year you had tweaked the debt market the debt mutual funds in your budget speech so is there stability around the corner in the foreseeable future policy stability is one thing which the prime minister really lays a lot of emphasis on he doesn't like periodic tweaking he would tell you it's only 2 years it's only 3 years let it play out let it settle down and so on so he is never in favour of quick twists and turns and this is not me saying people who have observed him for his tenure as chief minister will know that the biggest strength under prime minister Modi is stability in policy a single line reply that I can give no surprises I'm in long term stability in policy another question current question Arbia has imposed restrictions on the operations of Paytm Payments Bank I don't want to go into the details but just a question is what is your message to the fintech industry is there more than meets the eye in this case or are we going to be cautious when it comes to the fintech sector no I wouldn't want to comment on any one particular company but fintech is an area in which all of us are very enthusiastic India has contributed a lot in this sector India's contribution in this sector has been globally recognised today if people are looking at solutions fintech solutions they are looking to India our youth have contributed a lot and built capacities for themselves this is an area which we would certainly like to work with and encourage I'm not commenting on any one that's heartening to know for the fintech industry thanks for the message you have been tightening things around would you think that the RBI should loosen now well RBI does take its own call but I will appreciate the RBI for working together with the stakeholders and they take a call I'm sure they take a call that keeping growth in mind they have been steady I suppose they will continue to be steady is my expectation and hope few quick political questions I am aware of the time thank you for answering all our business and economic questions at great length we are seeing a different side of Nirmala Sitaraman in the last few weeks you have also been seen as an aggressive politician you have turned the heat on your rivals in Tamil Nadu you said that Stalin's DMK is an anti-Hindu party and that they were forbidding the live telecast of the Ram Mandir Pran Pratishthan ceremony what do you have to say to that 100% I have not said a loose word I did mean what I say and I do truly believe that repeatedly they attack on Hindus in Tamil Nadu in layers which are seen and in layers which are not seen have been felt for a long time I speak very many times about Tamil Nadu with lived experience and therefore I don't talk too soon nor do I speak too indiscreetly so when I say something I mean it because I feel it also I do corroborate with data with actual ground activities and then only comment unfortunately if that is the politics of a state party which has had a lot of ideological support extended to separatist politicians years gone by whether they supported even today I do not know but there are periodic voices which come out which are very separatist and tone antenna my grief is a national party like the congress party has been decimated in Tamil Nadu and today till today they are not a position to win an election even a couple of elections on their own without being in alliance with one of these parties BJP is of course a beginner there it's been there since the Jansung days and its gaining strength will continue to work with the people but the grief that I want to express is a national party like congress party also joins that anti-Hindu voice does not condemn the voice of the party DMK and even worse goes in support of such voices which come from DMK and today not just in Tamil Nadu a congress party member in the Lok Sabha today meaning he is a sitting Lok Sabha member and a brother of a deputy chief minister in Karnataka also speaks in separatist voice so anti-Hindu is one and to Hindu activity is another which also is happening in Karnataka incidentally congress party in Tamil Nadu supports these kind of anti-Hindu or anti-separatist voices and today that is a spirit with which congress also is aligning which is what I find utterly shocking I tend to paint the Bharti Janta party as a North Indian party and you know this North-South divide encouraging that is that they have always called Bharti Janta party two things it is a Brahmin-Bhanya party it is a Hindi party today the kind of support BJP receives in South India this proves all this and I don't want to name individuals and say oh he or she belongs to this caste we have promoted this caste and therefore more than BJP I can challenge today is there any one party in India which has worked for the betterment of tribals in India which has worked for the betterment of the Dalits schedule caste in India which has recalled some of the best iconic leaders coming from those communities but attaining national stature whether it is Dr. B. R. Ambedkar whether it is Guruji and considered like god himself Bursa Munda whether it is the sons of the Shabzade Sikh Gurus who gave their lives in their teenage for the sake of our country so in any one of these I want to ask is there any one party in this country which has as much served as the BJP so what is Hindi party when Prime Minister of India is talking about all languages he quotes Thiruvalluvar quotes from Purana Nuri every given opportunity he takes the languages even to the UN so Tamil Nadu's politics speaking of these kind of things has happily kept the Hindi speaking parts of the country even if they are in alliance with them away from the separatist rhetoric so you think oh we are in alliance with that party they cannot do any wrong but they have been speaking on these separatists earlier they have speaking anti-Hindu earlier only because of the language gap just as they didn't want to learn Hindi many of the North Indians didn't want to learn Tamil so there has never been an understanding a comprehensive complete understanding of what's developed in Tamil Nadu So are you hopeful that the BJP will do better this time in South India do you see them getting out of 131 seats it's difficult to talk about number of seats but I'm sure the efforts which are being made by Tamil Nadu BJP unit it's likely to open your account in these states like Tamil Nadu they certainly work for the people and hope to have their blessings no whether it's Kerala whether it's Tamil Nadu lots of workers happening and people are responding as well are you likely to contest elections I don't think no it's my party's decision one last question on 2024 what is your assessment how many seats do you think that the BJP is likely I'm not sure I'll again speculate on the number of seats better than last time I think people will see the truth and commitment and dedication with which the honorable Prime Minister has been working they are blessing him they are seeing his earnestness they are seeing how non-stop he puts the people of India and the nation first among everything else so I'm confident the opposition has constantly been crying themselves about the use of intelligence agencies you know so whether it is Kejriwal or Mamta Banerjee's leaders in West Bengal or Hemant Sarin more recently you know they complain that they are harassment by central investigative agencies and if you know the leaders jump on to the other side and join the BJP then they are let go scot free what do you have to say my last question first of all many of the cases in which the CBI or the enforcement directorate or the income tax pursue cases cannot come to the level of asking for interrogation or arrest can happen overnight you will be surprised in many of these cases the cases were originally filed during UPA times many of these cases belong to that era you know the Indian system the level and the time consumed for each stage to mature and to reach a stage where summons are being served it consumes a lot of time many of these are from that era case so it is not as we have done one second a survey or a search happens tell me if they have come empty handed roomfuls of cash equally when we are talking about common man adopting to technology doing digital payment you have people sitting with currency notes in their homes nowadays everything is videographed I can't sit here and say I have found so much cash in your house without a proof the video shows in the bathroom in the bedroom in lockers tons of cash being kept what explains that so it is very well to use that as a whip to hit at the ruling party to say there are trade or CBI these are professional agencies they take huge time to make their cases compact and ready because everything is now monitored by the court once the charge sheet is filed yes and you have to submit the documents to the court you can't just go there and say I have found this I have found that records prove it so era is changing people don't like to have pictures so when the enforcement directorate go and knock at the doors and come out with such pictures common people are saying it you may cry both as you said saying it is being politically used I am sorry it is something which was case from your era you filed a case against your own alley there are partners in crime thank you you answer economic questions political questions it is always such a pleasure to speak to you thank you so much once again for giving us this exclusive very special interview like every year after the budget through our news 18 network through CNBC CNN news 18 you will be able to go to the corner of the country and investors are glued into moneycontrol.com tracking every twist and turn of the budget thank you so much my first question somewhat obvious question no SOPs no populist measures even in 2019 interim budget the government had announced some SOPs like tax rebates there were some announcements for the farmers but none this time seems like a very confident prime minister for elections you have never looked more relaxed to me before what was going on in your mind while drafting this well thank you for having me after the budget like every year it is a great opportunity to talk to your viewers and also for others who are watching this program more with the keenness to know about the Indian economy yes the budget yesterday did not have any SOPs announced we treated it like a true vote on account an interim budget before an election and also an interim budget which is being presented with the clear understanding that the several programs which were launched with empowerment of citizens in mind over the last 10 years are reaching the ground and the beneficiaries are already on their own speaking about it the power of word of mouth is very strong so when a beneficiary gets truly the benefit and without any middleman playing a role in it they really understand that the intent of the government is what they have said is what is getting executed so I place a lot of trust in the word of mouth which has helped in schemes like Wujwala PM Awas Yojana PM Mudra Yojana Swannidhi Yojana all of which have benefited the small households small people who want to do the goodness and who don't have no property for collateral no properties to give so this government has actually because of the vision with which PM has committed to serve this country is actually serving the common people in letter and spirit and that is recognized by the people themselves it's not as if you are saying and you are showing target numbers you are showing achievement numbers no the people in the ground are saying about it I have got it and so is my neighbour so is the neighbour of that household this is why I have used an expression and I mean it when I have said it that this is secularism in action this is where we have not shown any difference between members belonging to this community or that community this religion or that religion or somebody is relative and not relative no difference the project reaches the ground for everybody who deserves to get it and if they are eligible they get it irrespective of who they are and therefore in every way the principle of empowerment the sabkasad sabkavishwas vikas has been executed in every way and that has the sense of confidence that the blessings of the people are not just at the time when we gave promises but the blessings are even now coming in abundantly to say yes you have kept up your word it is what the prime minister has also been talking about the forecast as he calls it you know the poor women farmers you so I think that is the cornerstone of this part of this speech Nirmalaji you have steered the economy in difficult times you know if I look at your last last five years there has been the pandemic right now two wars are going on even then we are projected to grow 7.3% now if I were to look at the nominal GDP which has grown only 10.5% consider an inflation of 4.5% do you think that 7% itself would be challenging do you think it is realistic for us to grow on those lines the chief economic advisor has also commented in his prefaces elaborated on how 7% is not difficult to achieve globally also the various organizations which look at economies of all countries like IMF for instance has also enhanced their own assessment so upgrading our growth estimates is not just singularly our business people are saying that fundamentally a lot of activities are happening the robustness of the economy has not slackened anywhere it has maintained you know the buoyancy with which things are happening not just revenue collection when I am talking of buoyancy so there is reason to believe yes it is possible and the deflator not just the inflation but the deflator itself is constantly meaning we are looking at controlling inflation other factors fall in place so the deflator itself then plays a role and therefore we are confident that on the one hand we will be able to manage inflation and on the other to keep the robustness in growth so that it is sustained growth we have made every effort to look at both growth driving elements and inclusivity driving elements so that nobody is left out from this growth process both to contribute and to gain from indeed you know something that has been commented enough and you have got a lot of accolades for it in this budget if you look at the fiscal glide path I think you have beaten estimates this year you projected 5.1 next year so that also looks promising what is your message to the sovereign rating agencies you are expecting an upgrade well I would think that they do their job but periodically it is our business also to bring it to their notice that economy particularly emerging market economy like India despite the odds we are doing a lot of reforms systemic reforms which actually you are seeing is bearing the results now if only Prime Minister Modi hadn't pressed the pedal let's say the revving pedal the accelerator during covid even as we are managing covid we will have to attend to reforms and continue doing the reforms the Atman-Nirbar Bharat announcements we are all infused with so much of reform measures otherwise we wouldn't have eliminated more than 68000 rules there is just so archaic and we are becoming instruments for rent seeking people so systemic reforms have continued whether it was pre covid GST and IBC together with very many other reforms like professionalizing public sector banks and so on the emphasis on reform has given us adequate rewards and we will continue doing that that is why even in the budget we have emphasized on transparency we have emphasized on getting everything on board the budget process itself rather than keeping it outside of the budget or underneath the carpet these are not small steps and that has been consistently done in the last 4-5 years and before that as I said IBC or banking reforms the 5 major recognition as we say of the problem so to list it there are so many some small some very big the small ones having very big implication in making the economy much more cleaner and open and transparent the bigger ones which are bearing results in terms of the money that you collect in GST these are not small steps so that is the one which I would play as important indicators which rating agencies should look at comprehensively rather than look at just one detail here one detail there macroeconomic stability is also very well kept up look glad you mentioned reforms I think big message coming from you that the government will continue on the road for reforms you know what are the next few before that you know cutting the rich tax last year you know in an election year before that you know cutting the corporate tax I mean you have taken some bold measures what are the next level of reforms that we can expect from you broadly I mean directionally no first of all as I said the system to become more transparent more things will have to be done in order to make sure that we work together with states it's one thing for the union government relatively with the central government but where there are overlaps there are some states which have come about enthusiastically to say yes we should benefit also from this vibrancy which results after such measures are taken and therefore when reforms are talked about we normally always say three levels where it has to be carried out with the same the central government the state and then the local bodies now working with the state governments has already started happening the last few years you see very many areas where we are working together the local body level the municipal urban local bodies the panchayats we need to have greater interchange of ideas and working together with them also that will also continue now Finance Minister if I were to ask you this one question with the exception of Air India no strategic privatisation has taken place any significant you know whether it is IDBI Concord SCI Banks why has your government sort of repeatedly kind of underperformed on this disinvestment aspect I mean is the thinking changing within the government are you looking at sort of strategic sales and not maybe offer to sell completely is there some shift in the thinking I would want you to first of all put that question into the frame that I have laid in the matter of public sector enterprises policy if a policy framework has been announced and in that we have said that there are only core strategic sectors which government recognises where the government will be having a minimal presence and even in those sectors private sector will be allowed to or it will be completely open for them to participate in total in the sense they will not be any one sector inclusive of the core strategic sector which will be exclusively reserved for public sector whereby consolidation will have to happen to make them big enough for a big country like India efficiencies will have to be brought in their values will have to be increased so this question of yours will have to fit into that frame I will not reverse any of the cabinet approved decisions but at the same time you should probably also have noticed that for each of them we are working to make sure we are not allowing them to remain there till they are getting disinvested equally we are working to make sure that the evaluations are kept up they are improved upon that if you look at the public sector listing listed companies and the evaluation in the market today you see the kind of vibrancy which has been brought in into them they share values have gone up the dividends are even much better than earlier absolutely so disinvestment is one thing but in bringing value to them and make sure that the markets look at them absolutely favorably no in fact the public sector companies have done really well and public markets are also where they are would you consider sort of diluting your stake maybe to 49% in some of the companies thereby they are not government owned but at the same time you have best of both the worlds and the valuations could go up even further no certainly that is not something which has been denied earlier meaning as a matter of policy but in many ways we are already you will see periodically the department which takes care of the disinvestment has slowly in trickles released a lot of government shares into the market so that private ownership can come in and they can take hold of those shares so that is happening already and we will certainly like to make sure that greater participation public ownership in companies like let's say SBI or ONGC you know I mean this could be another possibility thank you one of the big ideas this budget which struck to everyone is a big idea has been the announcement of a corpus of one lakh crore to provide interest free or low interest sort of loans for research and innovation can you elaborate a little bit on this how will this work will there be a separate sort of entity managing this how will it go forward yes certainly I first of all would bring in a bit of a context to this it's not as if we are doing it now for the first time earlier too there were several funds within different departments like the science and technology they had a CSIR its own funds were all over the place you had them doing supportive activities for innovation each from their own side two years ago I remember announcing the national research foundation which brought together all these you know thinly spread resources to one pool and from there each of the department would claim whatever they would want to fund in terms of innovation supportive activities but what we have now done is they may remain so but the government would now bring in a kind of a institution or a vehicle which can take this one lakh crore which will be given to them in the next few years in total as a interest free corpus amount using that they can then identify innovation related exercises which are happening in private sector and fund them I may give this interest free 50 year loan to the corpus but the managers of that fund will then decide to whom at what cost should they give it the cost may vary depending on the risk factors and the judgment of the professionals will manage it but it's certainly a fund from where private innovation will be supported I'm sure you'll be asked this question in future but you know the allocation for capex at 11.1 lakh crore does it seem like a lofty goal considering that you know you could not even do 10 lakh crore till this year? No but not really we've done only 2 lakh, 3 lakh that's not the case we're closer to 10 it's also because absorption has its own limits whether it's the states or the departments within government of India when the capital expenditure is undertaken through the outlets given to them it is only that much within 12 months that they can do and not beyond reaching the target however ambitious it is is to the last mile difficult within 12 months had we given them a few more months they will probably even complete that but the condition for these capital expenditure which I have announced since last 2 years 3 years is that that amount should be utilized within the year so many of the state governments which take the money which are very implementing in fact states very enthusiastic in wanting to avail of this facility the difficulty comes that if you restrict them to using it within 12 months and which is what we aim at we want them to use it within 12 months so I'm not saying restrict in that sense but within 12 months when you expected to spend that money there are times when completely utilizing it becomes difficult they partly use it that is why 10 lakhs you might reach 9.2 and not touch 10 but achieving 9.2 within a matter of 12 is I think good enough so to increase it to 11 I'm very hopeful it will definitely get used and the amounts which are being given to states are also having high utilization if I'm right we get a sense that there is an indication of tapering of government spending you know I know we've discussed this in our last interview as well you expect private sector also now to do some heavy lifting so we are seeing some of the sectors looking up now there are investments in steel, aviation, power, machinery but are you happy with the level of private sector participation you said that you know they are like Hanuman and Hanuman has no idea of his own power