 Good evening. It is November 1st, 2022 on July 16th of this year an act was signed into law which extends the suspension of certain provisions of the open meeting law. This allows us to continue holding meetings remotely without a quorum of the council physically present at a meeting location while providing the public with adequate alternative access to the meeting. This meeting is accessible in real time via zoom by phone and on Amherst media, and the room is open to the public. Given that we have a quorum of the council present. I am calling the November 1st, 2022 special town council meeting to order at 635. I'll call upon each counselor by name at that time you should unmute your mic and say present. This will indicate that you can hear us and we can hear you. After we're finished with this I will then turn to the co-chairs of the Community Safety and Social Justice Committee to call their meeting to order as well. Present. Pat DeAngelis. Present. Anna Devlin-Goth here. Present. Lynn Griesmer is present. Mandy Jo Hanneke. Present. Annika Lopes. Present. Michelle Miller. Present. Dorothy Pam. Here. Pam Rooney. Here. Kathy Shane. Here. Andy Steinberg. Present. Jennifer Tob. Present. Alicia Walker. Here. All 13 counselors are present. Dee and Dee Shabazz and Allegra Clark are the co-chairs and I call on them to call the CSSJC meeting to order. Dee, you want me to do that? Yes, please. Okay. So this is a joint meeting of the Community Safety and Social Justice Committee and the Town Council. It is 6.35 p.m. on November 1st, 2022. So I'm going to make sure all members can hear me. Starting with Dee. Yes, can you hear me? Yes, thank you. I see Phillip next on my screen, Phillip Avila. Here. Thank you. We can hear you. I see Pat Nanabaku. Yes. Thank you. I see Frickette. Present. Thank you. And is Deborah Ferrero with us? I don't see her in the audience or on the screen. She said she was going to have some conflict this evening. It might be calling in. So I just, I don't know if. Oh, there is a phone number. In the audience. It is 1, 4. 413. I'm sorry. Just read the last four digits. I'm sorry. It's 4701 are the last four digits. If that person is Deborah Ferrero, please raise your hand. It's not okay. But we do have a quorum of our members present. So I am calling this meeting to order at 637. Thank you. There's no chat room for this meeting. If you have technical issues, please let me know to make a comment or ask a question. Please click the raise hand button. If technical difficulties arise as a result of us, utilizing remote participation or technology in general, I'll decide how to address the situation. Athena will be monitoring counselors connections. And if necessary, we will pause the meeting until you are reconnected. There are various announcements on the agenda sheet. And we're not going to go through them at this time. Before we begin the substance of the agenda, I want to take a moment to reflect on the way in which our last meeting unfolded and especially the way in which it ended. One of my jobs as president is to make the process work. Our last meeting was not a good example of that. In addition to postpone the motion on the floor. Caught me a bit off guard and I struggled. In the moment to come up with the best procedural response. Charter section 2.10 C requires the debate on the motion on the floor must cease immediately. So that much was clear. And retrospect that motion need not have stopped the discussion. Admittedly, it may have been quite difficult to have further discussion without getting into the substance of the proposed motion. But I should have pursued that option. In addition, all counselors have the right to speak to their motion or in this case speak to their right to exercise. 210 C of the charter based upon rules of procedure 7.2. In addition, any counselor has a right to question and or appeal. The ruling of the person sharing the meeting. Because I didn't allow for either of these, I believe a difficult situation became even more tenuous. For all of these reasons, I am apologizing. To the council. To the members of the CSS JC. And to all those who came to expect, expecting to discuss the agenda item. I learned from my mistakes and will always endeavor to do better in the future. I might note. The more advanced notice I have, what counselors have in mind these year for me to work with them on their motions and to anticipate and manage any procedural pitfalls. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to make these comments. On to the agenda tonight. On to the agenda item. On to the agenda item. At the conclusion of the CSS JC meeting on October 17th. I immediately began a poll for a date to continue the discussion and address the motion that was postponed. Fortunately, the next day on October 18th at 3pm at the finance committee meeting, which was posted as a council meeting. We agreed that the motion be taken up tonight. On to the agenda item. At 3pm. The post agenda tonight reflects this discussion from the meeting on October 17th. And that will continue. And that will be in a moment. However, this is preceded by a period of public comment. After including the discussion, the members of the CSS JC. Will remain in the room throughout the entire meeting. And the council will move to action items. In the packet, you will find a somewhat unusual item. It is a set of motions submitted by counselors prior to noon yesterday. Upon the suggestion of another counselor, I asked for this so we could all be prepared for the range of issues likely to come up. And other motions may be introduced by counselors during the meeting. We cannot take up all motions at one time. We will begin later on during the action period. With the motion proposed by counselor Miller. That was postponed on October 17th. That motion has already been made and seconded and therefore immediately comes back on the table. And is open for discussion and action. We will recognize Michelle to pick up the thread of that motion. And then I will recognize other counselors who wish to speak at that time. Following that, and prior to any vote on any motion. Or amendment. There'll be another period of public comment. Which includes the opportunity for any CSS JC member. And the public to comment. On the motion sheet. After that, the council return to debate. And action by the council on any motion before us. During that time, counselors will also have an opportunity to make additional motions not presented on the motion sheet. Before I proceed to public comment, I'd like to ask all of those in the room. If you have any questions about how we are going to proceed tonight. Dorothy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for getting into all this procedural stuff. So I, I think I didn't hear. An opportunity for the CSS JC. To present. I mean, this is a joint meeting. You, I think you said they could talk as part of public comment. I probably just didn't quite hear what you said. They do have a chance to speak. Besides public comment, right? So I think that that time is the CSS JC. Have certain things they would like to present or discuss. That is an open discussion between both bodies. Okay. Great. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Allegra. Sorry. Forgot where the button was. I just wanted to recognize that Deborah Ferrara is here. I don't know if that has to go on record, but I'd like to make sure we can hear her. Thank you, Allegra. I can hear you all. Can you hear me? Yes. Thanks. Great. And thank you. That will go in the minutes. Kathy. Yeah, Lynn. I wasn't sure on the motion that's on the floor. Will we have a discussion on that and vote on it before we look at the other motions or will we first have a discussion? Look at all the other motions then come back in a vote. I wasn't sure how that will proceed. And this will not happen until action items, which will be after the discussion period. Okay. And we'll review all of that again at that time, but the motion that's on the floor. Michelle will be asked to either speak to that motion or make any other statement that she would like to at that time. We will not vote on any motions or amendments to motions. We will not vote on any motions or amendments to motions. And we will not have a discussion until such time as we had another period of public comment. Okay. I'm not sure that answered my question. If we have another period of public comment that we come back and vote on the motion that's on the floor or do we get to hear the other motions? We cannot have. You can have a motion on the floor. You can have a amendment to a motion on the floor. You can have an amendment to that motion and by Robert's rules of order. If I am correct, that is the maximum number of motions to be dealt with at any point in time. So when we get to that period of the agenda, we will go very slowly. If we need to take a pause to reinforce how we're doing things. We'll do that as well. And make sure that whenever we're voting, we're going to be very aware of what they're voting on. Okay. Are there any other questions or comments from those of us in the. In the room. I want to make note that there are 60. I'm sorry. I see one from Andy. I think I have the same problem that Kathy. May have. Because you asked counselors. If they wish to. Provide substitute motions. Those motions can't be made. But when do the makers of the motions have an opportunity. To explain what it is that they presented. And why. Normally that would be at the time they would advance their motion. If the council. If the council does not have an opportunity to do that. We can have a discussion before the motions. And maybe that's the opportunity you're looking for. Does that help Andy? It helps. I think that it would be. Just helpful to have a. Specific procedure because we had. A think come into the meeting with the. Understanding that. We would have a chance to talk about. What were the reasons that. Substitute motions were being suggested, even though they can't be made or offered. On the floor because as you point out, that can only be one motion on the floor. Athena has her hand up. Since she and I. And particularly spent a fair amount of time. Coming up with a way for people to submit these motions. Athena, would you like to speak. Yes, thank you. When we. Discuss this earlier, we, I think we have a good idea of Robert's rules and. The order of motions in the council's rules. So we're going to take those up. As they come up and we'll try and explain the process and answer questions as they come up. I think. What, what, what is happening right now is that there's a motion on the floor. And we have to do something with that motion before. Something else can have with before any other motions can be made. So that motion can be amended. That motion can be withdrawn. And a new motion can be made, but we're going to try and help that process along when we get to that point in the meeting. So I don't think we can talk through every eventuality, but I. I think that we all have a handle on. At least Lynn and Paul, and I have a handle on those procedures and we'll try and answer questions and provide guidance when that comes up. Mandy Joe. Might I suggest when we get to that part of the agenda under action items and the motion is formally on the floor and we're discussing it, that the chair take a little bit of leeway to give counselors the ability to chat about potentially which motion they might prefer and reasons around all of that. I think that's a little bit out of technical topic on the particular motion on the floor. That is fine with me if it's acceptable to the clerk of the council. Yes, it's up to the chair to. Thank you. Guidelines about discussion. Thanks. Absolutely. All right. Now there are 71 people in the audience. This is the first of two public comment periods tonight. The first of two public comment periods will occur during the discussion of the action item. Our items. If you would like to make a public comment, please raise your hand. Right now I'm only seeing two hands. Are there any other people who would like to make public comment? I'm sorry. Right. Dr. Patricia Romney had emailed me with her public comment. And she asked me to read it because she's unable to attend. So when would you like me to read that? Let's take some of the public comments and then we'll work that in. Thank you, Shalini. Zoe defund. Please enter the room. State your name and where you live. Hey, everybody. Can you hear me all right? You can. Oh, we can hear you. I'm sorry. Yes. Awesome. Thank you. So my name is Zoe creptory and I live in district five. I'm here tonight in support of the nine youth mistreated by the APD on July 5th and the CSS JC members. Who've been working hard to advocate for them. I'm disappointed at the way that the CSS JC has been treated. I'm surprised that the APD members have been minimized and prioritized for the past couple of months. Furthermore, I was dismayed but not surprised to hear from one of the parents present on July 5th. In a recent indie article. That the APD misrepresented the course of events. Brought together disparate disparate groups of youth into one big group, offensively responsible for the noise complaint. And didn't work to understand the parent who was already there and willing to take some of the youth home. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Other situations of this nature should be handled by press. Like many others tonight. I'm demanding that the APD make a formal apology to the youth. They harmed into their families. I'm demanding that the town take full accountability for the APD misconduct by having an independent investigation into the incident and releasing that report to the public. Additionally, I would like to thank all of you for joining us. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Ronnie Parker, please enter the room. State your name and where you live. Hi, this is Ronnie Parker. I live in Amherst. My general comment is that simply that I've been really feeling. That in order to reconcile, there's a need for somebody to apologize. Because without acknowledgement of responsibility and without apology, I don't see how we're going to get to reconciliation. And in my mind, that's really the larger goal. So I'm just want to say how pleased I am. That that was modeled quite unexpectedly by our council chair today at the start of this meeting. It's not so hard to do. I'm sorry. It really does help us all to be able to talk to each other and set aside any anger. So I want to thank Lynn for that. Opening really makes me feel optimistic. And I think that's the model. I hope that the model will see more of this evening. Thank you. Ronnie, thank you for joining us. Bertie, please enter the room. State your name and where you live. My name is Bertie Newman. I'm a Mount Holyoke student who remains deeply connected to my home in Amherst. And I'm also here to ask for justice for the Amherst nine. This would include among other things, an apology by the Amherst police department and the establishment of a compensation fund to support people in finding healing and joy after marriage. As the seven generations movement collective found in the report in 2021, it is common for BIPOC residents to experience fear and mistreatment in interactions with the Amherst police. Moving forward in situations like these is not only about figuring out what is illegal, what is legal, what is an abuse of power. There are also some things that we just know. We know members of the Amherst police department behaved in a way that caused local youth distress. And we know that they frequently behave in ways that cause BIPOC town residents distress. We can take steps to remedy these harms. I'm grateful to the community safety and social justice committee for envisioning a way forward. And I hope the rest of the town government listens attentively to their voices and follows their lead. Thank you so much. Bertie, thank you. Catherine Anderson, please enter the room. State your name and where you live. Can I be heard? Yes, you can. I just want to say that I am extremely, extremely disappointed. In the white members of the town of Amherst. For allowing this behavior to take place. There have been decades. Of work. Around social justice issues and white privilege in the town of Amherst. And it is just. Insane. That white people continue to. Engage in these kinds of misbehaviors against. The black and colored citizens. Of Amherst. One would think that these people in this community. Would know better. And so now it's time for you to stand up. It's time for you to hold the police accountable. For the racist behavior in which they engage with students of color and other people of color in this town. One would think that these people in this community. Would know better. And so now it's time for you to stand up. For the racist behavior in which they engage with students of color and other people of color in this town. You should be ashamed. That this. Kind of action. Is taking place. It represents who you are as white people. And you need to stop it. And that's all I have to say. Kathleen, thank you for joining us. John Boniface, please enter the room. State your name and where you live. I'm John Boniface. I live in Amherst. And I want to make two points tonight in this general comment. First around accountability. Just to build off of what Kathleen just said, we do need accountability when we see this kind of police misconduct. And for months now, we've not seen any kind. Of accountability. We've seen a statement by the police chief. That the police officer involved who's told these young people, they have no rights. That he regrets saying that. But there's no accountability. For this police officer's misconduct. And that's critical. As I said. In a prior meeting, not every police officer is going to tell. Young people that they don't have any rights. But for those who do engage in that kind of misconduct, if they're not held accountable, then the entire police force is tainted. And that's what's happening here without that kind of accountability. These young people were wrongly detained. There is no curfew in this town. They were not let go. Once it was clear there was no need to continue to question them or be there. And they were told they had no rights. And there needs to be accountability. The second point I want to make. And the second point I want to make. And the second point I want to make. Is while I appreciate the council president's. Apology. At the opening of this meeting. There's another apology that needs to come. From the council president to one. Particular member of the community. Pat. And that's because during the conversation that occurred. In the last meeting. Whom I know is Mrs. Pat. She made a comment. In which she. Said that the police chief need to think about stepping down. And the council president abruptly. Cut her off. And as publicly reported said, quote, I think it's inappropriate. For anyone to sit here. And ask for a police chief's resignation in this meeting. The first amendment prohibits any government official. From engaging in viewpoint discrimination. And the first amendment prohibits any government official. Now, whether or not you think there are legitimate reasons for calling for the police chief's resignation, I happen to think there are. Whether or not you agree with that. It is not your place as a government official. To stop that public statement from being made. Mrs. Pat's first amendment rights were violated in that moment. It's deeply offensive to the core principles of the first amendment. And I think that kind of speech based on viewpoint discrimination. And I think an apology is owed to her as well. Thank you. Jim Oldham, please enter the room, state your name and where you live. Hello. I'm Jim Oldham. I'm. I live in. On Columbia drive in Amherst. And I. I would like to give my apologies to the other. Strong and eloquent voices who went before me. To say. That. As a resident and a taxpayer. What's done by the police in this town and by the government officials in this town does represent me and it's. Frankly quite horrifying to, to see this behavior in our town. And as others have said better than I can right now. What happened in July was. Such an obvious abuse. Of human rights. And I think that the failure of. The town leadership to acknowledge that to apologize for it. And to begin a process of retraining of those who were involved. To acknowledge that that training is needed to acknowledge. The hurt that was caused from it. The failure to do any of that. The failure to, and it doesn't represent. Me, it doesn't represent many of us in Amherst. And it shouldn't be taking place. So I want to add my voice in support of the. CSSJ committee and what they're calling for and what. And what others who spoke before me have called for every, everything that you've heard. I just want to act. Thank you. Anita. Hello, my name is Anita. I'm in district five. I've been following this quite closely. And I think others both tonight and other times have, have clearly articulated what we see or the problems. And I think that's a great question. My concern at present is how we move forward. I, this may sound a little bit like coming out of left field, but I'll share these ideas anyway. I spent all of my adult professional life and healthcare first as a nurse. And then as a lawyer. Who primarily. Worked with nurses and doctors. And then as a nurse. And then as a nurse. After a medical error had occurred. And in the early days of my practice, it was as it had been for generations. If there was a medical error, it was to run away from it was to office gate. It was to circle the wagons. And it was to try to avoid. Any kind of responsibility. And I think that's something that's been adopted. By a lot of hospitals, including our own local ones. And some of them use. The acronym care. CRE. Care for communication. That there be prompt. Communication immediate communication. And an identification of the problem. And a for both accountability and apology. That it is important to acknowledge and be held accountable. For the errors that were made. And finally. Or repair or sometimes it's called restitution. And it was the idea of how do we compensate? How do we make this person whole to the extent that we can. First, the individual who was harmed. And it was the idea of how do we make this person whole to the extent that we can. But as important. Looking forward. And doing what we used to call root cause analysis. What were the policies and procedures and expectations and practices. That caused this. Event to happen. And how can we fix it? So I offer that as it is not. An analogy, but I think it can be helpful in thinking through those principles. When going forward. Thank you. I need to thank you for joining us. Gabrielle de Villa. Please enter the room, state your name and where you live. Hi, my name is Gabrielle Davila. I live in district five. I was raised and lived in South Amherst my whole life, although I'm calling in from college today. I'm going to talk a little bit more about this. Just to express what everyone else has been saying about how horrifying and disappointing this incident was. I think that like everyone has said, there needs to be accountability. And we should be able to be proud of our town. When I'm in college talking about how I'm from Amherst. I want to be talking about the great colleges and the great people and the great town that I'm from. I think that there's been a concern. Now that the members of this body were told by all the residents of the town over the summer over and over again, that there was an issue with the police department that the police department had too much money that the police department had not enough training. And the residents of the town were ignored. And that culminated with this. And now there needs to be action. And if you can't see that there needs to be action. I don't know what would have to happen for you to see that there needs to be a serious fundamental change in the way that we approach policing in our town. And I think that they're that without accountability, that those rights of everyone affected are won't be upheld unless there is some accountability. And so if there's no accountability, then the police officer in this incident will be right. And those kids won't have had any rights. So to have rights, which are an essential function in any society that claims to be a democracy in any good area, you need to have your rights upheld. And I think it's ridiculous that the residents of this town have to come in front of the people who claim to represent us and ask, hey, could we please have our rights upheld? And could there please be accountability for those who violate our rights? And could we please have training to make sure our rights aren't violated in the future? I think that it's ridiculous that we even have to ask that. Shalini. This is a statement from Dr. Patricia Romney. She is unable to be here. And she emailed me and also shared the statement as a public comment, which everyone can read. So this is what she said. My review of the July 5th video showing the interaction between Amherst youth and Amherst police who were called to the scene by a noise complaint leads me to conclusion that there were errors made. Those errors have been acknowledged by the APD. Still, the outcome was just what I would want for my children. No physical abuse, no arrests, parents called and children safely at home. It is hard for me to understand how that is not good enough. It is hard for me to understand how this can be compared to the experiences of groups like the Central Park 5 who were beaten, wrongly convicted and jailed for between six and 13 years. Our town has a DEI director, a black woman attorney with many years of experience doing work on equity and inclusion. She conducted an investigation and concluded that the police did not abuse their authority. Yet, her conclusions are ignored or repudiated. Who does that serve? The town council, CSJC, human rights commission, African American reparations commission, the DEI officer are now all involved with the issue. I have no objection to oversight, but I wonder what community needs are not being met while this issue is being discussed. I think much of the energy is focused on this one incident. Specifically, I would like to see us move toward the residents oversight board that has been proposed. This board will have the authority to oversee matters such as these. I have been an Amherst resident for 41 years and I'm troubled again and again and again by our community's concerns. The refusal to engage in dialogue focused on bridging differences in the interest of community and justice leaves everyone feeling victimized and results in little advancement towards justice and the common good. We need to do better. I'm going to return to the audience. A person with a name of Mills has their hand up. Lauren Mills. Hello. Yes. Hi, Lauren Mills. So long metal drive. District five. I would just like to read from a book that I got. From the Jones library is called finding her voice. And it's. States, how would not states, but it's about how black girls in white spaces. And live their truth. And it talks about microaggressions. And I just want to read the. The paragraph from it says microaggressions do not just hurt your feelings. They have other damaging consequences on your mental and physical health. Because of the ongoing stress they cause. You exert time and energy thinking about them. Therefore it is important for you to recognize microaggressions and learn how to respond to them. Sometimes the best response is to confront the person. Other times it may be to get help from an adult or peer. And sometimes the best person of action is to ignore the microaggression. And a microaggression. And the book says that it's. Can be a everyday slight put down or an insult. Microaggressions are directed at people based on disability gender identity, sexual orientation. And so forth. And I just wanted to read that so that. Some of us can think about the incident and how it doesn't just. You know, affect someone if they're not. Physically harmed, but aggression can affect. People mentally and it can be ongoing. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The other two hands that are up are people that have already spoken. Are there any people that have not spoken that would like. I'm sorry. Sir, please come forward. To the mic. Make sure you press so that the green light is on. Can you hear me all right? We can. Thank you. I'm Henry Morgan. I'm a student organizer in various. Campuses in the Pioneer Valley. And we're talking about the areas where we were. That happened where the police. Told youths that they didn't have any rights. And in my opinion, I think that that is. Incredibly unacceptable because our democracy is based. Entirely. On the civil rights of. People in our communities. And I want to ask you guys to come here. And although we've come so far. And I know we've come so far into addressing policing. in ways that doesn't harm people with coercion or the violence, I think that we really need to think about the way that we are approaching this, to think about changing it, to think about building structures for democratic accountability to the community that is being policed, and think about, obviously, there's such an inherent need for change that this brings up. And although this is a really horrifying incident, this is also an opportunity, an opportunity for our communities to organize, an opportunity for our communities to reimagine the way that we do public safety, the way that we do policing and the way that we do democratic accountability. And I want to encourage you guys to take this as an opportunity to build a new structure for justice and accountability. Okay, thank you. Thank you for joining us. Athena, is there a sign-in sheet so that we can get the full name of people? No, I don't have a sign-in sheet there, no. Okay, so Sean is going to make sure that we get your full name so that we can have it for the record. Thank you very much. I see two additional hands from people that have not spoken. Vera Cage, please enter the room, state your name and where you live. Good evening. My name is Vera Cage and I live at 12 Long Middle Drive apartment 21 in Amherst. I appreciate the public comments and the many people who have taken the time to witness this meeting. I appreciate the town manager, Paul Balkaman, being here, being present. And I recognize that there are many ways to resolve the problem that we have at hand. And I'm really hoping and yearning for our town manager's leadership in helping guide this way because I haven't seen that guidance as of yet. I'd like for him to speak more to that because I think as the town manager, his leadership is sorely needed. And I'm hoping that the chair of the town council, President Lynn Grismark, could also provide that type of leadership where the community can have some confidence in the leadership of the people elected to represent us. I would hope that people could provide a context to their comments. I know that some of us are paid consultants to the town. The previous public comment provided by Dr. Pat Romney, you know, Romney Associates has been in my experience on the school committee, was a paid consultant to the school district too, to provide diversity training, social justice training, and as well to reason more recently to provide training to the Amherst police. So I think the community needs to be aware that, of course, not everyone's going to agree with the path forward or how justice will be had or forged. So I think that at this point, the adults need to center, need to step aside and really center the experiences of the young people. Because every day that this drags on, that's an added injustice. Every week that goes on, every month that passes by is tormenting to the children and to the families. Please center their social and emotional well-being. Set aside your adult, your grown-up, your many years on this earth and really center the experiences of these young people who haven't even found two decades on this earth. They are 15, 16, 17-year-olds, okay? Please center their experiences. This is their community. This is where they go to school. This is where they reside. This is where their parents work. This is their town too, and the town needs to deliver for them. Thank you. Megan Leif. Yes, my name is Megan Leif. I'm an Amherst resident. I've lived in the town for almost 12 years. I'm in precinct one near the North sign church. I don't have any official role or capacity at this moment, though I was a paraprofessional in Amherst High School for three years and did my student teaching internship for my master's degree at Amherst Middle School, so I've spent a significant amount of time working with youth in our town. I don't necessarily have something unique to add on top of what's already been said. I more so just want to echo and support existing sentiments that there was an injustice that was done and there are actions that should be taken. Specifically, I want to support the need for an apology to these nine youths and their families. The need for APD to take accountability for what they've done, including an investigation into the incident and records released to the public in line with what you have already been asked to do. I support the compensation fund that would be shaped and approved by CSSJC. I support the idea of the town of Amherst having a Know Your Rights workshop for youth and other community members. In general, I just want to say that, like has been said, there could be multiple ways to pursue justice in this instance, but something that is really important and currently to me seems lacking is a sense that it's important. It's worthy of a wholehearted attention. I wasn't at this meeting, but as I'm aware, some progress was almost made in a previous meeting, but then it was cut short by a member of the council. I think people's confidence in this elected body and in this governmental system is really impacted by how we see our fellow neighbors be treated. This is an opportunity for the elected officials of Amherst to step forward and show sincerity, open-heartedness, concern for the real lives of people in their town, and a willingness to move beyond what your own mind might have initially felt was warranted towards what many, many people are telling you would actually achieve the goal of justice, healing, and yeah, just healing on this incident. Thank you. Kathleen Trapegan, please enter the room, state your name and where you live. Hi, thanks. I'm Kathleen Trapegan. I live in District 2 in Amherst. I don't have any official role. I just wanted to make a point about, and this is maybe jumping the gun for the comment, the next comment period, but about the need for many voices, especially the voices of the community safety and social justice committee and the African heritage reparations assembly and others to weigh in with power and a voice in accountability. The reason why I say that is I was listening to the last meeting, to the chief, and it really occurred to me that the police department's perception of the way that they are really seen in this town is really off. So there were two things that he said. One was, well, you know, or it was also in the report, well, we, we didn't get very many official complaints from the families in this incident. There's just no perception or like understanding of the idea that these families may not feel comfortable filing an official complaint and going through that system. And so the jump that he took to, I don't have a problem here. There's no problem here is just wrong, frankly. The other example was when he was asked, why have you not apologized? He said, well, we called up the families and invited them for pizza and they didn't want to come. So again, like, yeah, the families may not want to join you for pizza. That's not accountability. They don't feel comfortable. Do you not understand this? Like there is just an amazing lack of knowledge of the way that the police department is perceived. And I don't I think that whatever happens next, one of the elements has got to be working with the police department so that they truly try to understand the way that young people and other, other folks see them in this town so that they don't make these conclusions, which are utterly wrong about, I don't have a problem because I got no official complaint and nobody wanted to go to pizza with me. Like that's just, as Kathleen Anderson said, insane. That's all I have right now. Thank you. There's two a dish, two hands up to our people have spoken to before. I'm going to suggest that we go on with our discussion. If you'd like to speak again at the second public comment, that there'll be an opportunity to do that at that time. With that, I'm going to turn to the Council and the CSSJC and have us begin our discussion. Dorothy Dorothy, you're not muted. You're unmuted. Got you. I think you made a mistake in not allowing the two people to speak again. I think that's, you know, so you don't have to apologize again. I think just rethink that there's only two people. I just think it was a mistake just to say no right now. The people that had their hand up, Gabrielle Davila. It's still there. Would you like to say additional comments at this point? Yes, I would. And thank you to the other member of the committee for bringing that up. And I appreciate being allowed to speak again, as I think is reasonable in this type of town hall setting. I was interested by the comment that got written in referencing that, you know, this is not like the Chicago five incident and no one was beaten and no one was put in jail unjustly. Well, what I think is interesting is that that should not be the standard for the police in our town, the standard for the police should not be. OK, well, they didn't beat anyone and no one went to jail for an extended period of time unjustly. So, you know, no problem here, no violation of rights. I mean, is that who we want to be as a town? I think Amherst should be an example for other towns, an example of greatness. Right now we look like an example of a town that doesn't know what it's doing and doesn't know how to control its own police department. And I think that the idea that, OK, you know, the parents were called and nobody got beat by the cops, that that doesn't mean that nothing at all went wrong, right? And in terms of accountability, I think it's a really interesting topic to talk about, but I think by myself, like a lot of other young people who are from Amherst, like we've kind of lost hope for accountability. I mean, the way that this town government has been run over the past couple of years just does not give me a lot of hope, particularly with this group of elected officials, that anything is going to change. And I really don't think that's the message we want to send to young people such as myself, a message of, well, you know, we didn't beat you. So don't complain. And we offered you pizza and you didn't want to take it. So that means that, you know, your rights must not have been violated. I mean, that's just not how things should work. And so I think that that this we need to as a town to have more examples for the positive, we need to this is an opportunity to show the young people of the town such as myself that you, the town government, do actually care, that you actually will do something, not pizza, but a structural change. And that's what needs to happen. And so I think that, you know, we, the young people, we want to see big things, right? We don't want to see some like, what are we asking for right now? We're asking for an apology. Like, yeah, an apology would be nice. But when someone's rights are violated and when someone is told, you have no rights, the solution is not an apology that we're being forced to come to this meeting and beg for like the solution is a change in the police contract. And to be honest, I think the solution is a change in the elected officials that have really shown no regard to the wants and needs of young people such as myself. I mean, how can you expect us to think that you're going to seriously hold the police accountable when you wouldn't reduce their budget? And I mean, right right now, based on what I just heard, there's not even a sign in sheet at the town meeting. So yeah, like young people such as myself have a very low amount of expectations for this body. And I want this to be an opportunity for the town of Amherst to show young people like myself that you are actually going to do something. Kathleen Anderson, you were the other person with your hand up. Would you want to re-enter the room? OK, at this point, I just want to support the and the last two commenters, because they're essentially going to say what I wanted to say. In addition, I'm one of the co-founders of the study circles dialogues on race and class for four years. We engage with over 350 town members in dialogues around race and class. Currently, there is the Jewish community that is doing the stolen beam conversation. And I just recommend that all of the particularly white people in this town and in on these committees that are represented here tonight that you participate in those conversations. It should be a useful tool for you to look at yourselves and your own behaviors around race and class. And and perhaps that will create the kind of change that particularly the last two and Vera Cage, Kathleen Trapegan and I'm sorry, but I can't remember the name of the young man who just spoke. But it's time that we become a town that is an example of anti-bias, anti-racism, not a continuation of that. Thank you. Martha Hanner, you've raised your hand. Please enter the room, state your name and where you live. Thank you, Martha Hanner for District Five. May I just ask Athena to tell us how many attendees are listening tonight? There are seventy five attendees in the audience. Seven twenty four panelists in the room. Thank you. I think that shows that there is a concern here in our community. Thank you. Thank you, Martha. Are there any other comments? Right, then we're going to people who have their hands raised that are in the room and we will come back to public comment once we are into the action items. Deborah, Farah, I think that the Allegra, you may have been before me. Did you want to go or do you want me to go? You can go and I think D and I had some kind of remarks that we wanted to share. OK, so yeah, so for me, I mean, you know, I'm here sitting in a car waiting for my son to come out of practice, you know, you know, I'm just really frustrated because we're here again. We're here talking about this issue. I don't know why it's just so difficult to really get to the point of the police taking accountability for what transpired town manager coming out and saying taking accountability. You know, the compensation fund being put in place for the families and the young people for an apology to be made. I mean, Lynn, I have to use you as an example when Ms. Pat asked for for the chief's resignation, you were quick to say that that was incorrect. You know, so why is it that we're months down the line and this has not happened? And I'm sitting in a car more hours doing the same thing. And then you had the last counselor try to shut down conversation. I mean, you know, we want this to happen. I want to know whether whether an action is going to take what's going to happen today that's going to stop addressing these issues so that we can get to the healing. The healing is not going to happen unless accountability takes place. And we keep on, you know, as as one of the commenters Vera said, this is traumatizing to the young people. The more time we continue to elongate this right and continue to to to drag this forward without, you know, taking full accountability and and and moving this along, you know, this is what we're going to continue to do. I'm going to have to continue to, you know, take time away from everything to hear, you know, this type of trauma, this type of anger, this type of, you know, we need to get to the point of action, right? So for me today, I'm hoping that there will be action and not action. Like those two reports that that transpired last time at the last meeting that were full of holes yet again, no, all generalities, no details, no answering of any questions. That's why I had a gazillion questions, right? That only some of them were answered by the chief. I mean, nothing. I'm just kind of like, you know, you can't write, right? And you all wrote this when I was on CSWG, you all created this because you you wrote this whole statement about being anti-racist, right? In an inclusive town, you can't write empty words like that, right? And then when an incident happens, then you're not able to stand by those words. We're going to hold you out of those words. We're going to hold the town and the councils and the town manager and everyone else accountable to write that. You don't write anti-racist and then proceed along in other ways and not walk that walk. So for me, I want to know, right, are we going to get to do what we need to do today and stop really giving these families and these young people, you know, what they need, which is you do have rights. You you you are cared for. We care for you in this town and and we're going to show that because, you know, like I said, Lynn, you were quick to try to admonish Ms. Pat, so why can we be quick about doing what we need to do for these families? Allegra. I wanted to take a minute to thank everybody who's in the audience, everybody who has given public comment so far, and to thank Deborah for her comments. I know that our last meeting ended pretty contentiously. And, you know, I agree with what Roddy Parker said, you know, it's modeling the behavior of apologizing. Hopefully, hopefully a that can help this conversation tonight go forward. And hopefully that will bring some resolutions forward so that we can have action on on the things that we've been asking for. And so I know that specific to the motion tonight is a concern around the July 5th incident. And there are three specific things that the CSSJC had asked for in regards to that one being the Victim Compensations Fund, one being accountability through releasing any investigative reporting and one being an apology. And I think the previous speakers were absolutely right that demanding, you know, inviting somebody for pizza so that you can apologize and then not apologizing because you didn't have pizza doesn't make much sense. I just I wanted to share that there are additional demands that CSSJC had put forward back in July. And those are more related to. The structure and practice of policing as a whole and, you know, not just related to this July 5th incident, but to everything that goes on with the police department in this town from now until whenever. And I think that this conversation needs to remain fresh because there was an instant on the Hampshire College campus on October 19th and a letter went out to the entire Hampshire staff, students and faculty regarding Amherst police coming on to campus detaining a student. And I'm just going to read a few excerpts. And the student was not engaged in dangerous behavior and was entirely compliant with the directives of officers. Despite posing no threat to the officers, they placed the student enforceable restraints before questioning them. Hampshire College objects to this treatment and it should not have happened. President Weinbach spoke with both the Amherst town manager and chief of police to express our concerns and objections about the decisions that were made in this situation. Amherst police is a community response. And when utilized by our campus will follow its own protocols and procedures. If you find yourself in a difficult but non-life threatening situation, please call campus safety and well-being before using 911 or contacting local police. So the dean of students of one of our universities sent a letter to everybody saying, please don't call the police to our campus. That's very concerning. And I just want to end my remarks by saying that the remaining asks that we had put forward in July are to freeze all Amherst Police Department hiring, including any vacant positions until Crest has been operational for at least six months to determine whether Crest would be a more appropriate way to resource the community, engage the community and visioning sessions to help heal from systemic and structural inequities, create the resident oversight board to increase police accountability in the community, establish protocols and use the Crest Department and all nonviolent community calls, eliminate pretext stops, consent searches and sector-based community policing to reduce the opportunities for contact between the police and BIPOC drivers and create a youth empowerment center for BIPOC and all youth under the DEI department to provide positive opportunities for youth in the community. And those are all again taken from the community safety working groups recommendations, but we are still upholding those asks. Thank you. Thank you, Lega. Dee. Yes, thank you. And thank you for people in the community being engaged and concerned. Thank you to the youth that are showing their support and really trying to have this community win. They want us to win. They want us to be better. But they want accountability and we really need to listen to that. I know the letters of William Stewart of Leverett are in the packet, but I just want us to kind of highlight some of the things Mr. Stewart brought to bear on his letter to both the town council and to DEI says the July 5th police and youth interaction. I'm not a resident of Amherst, but my family is part of Amherst regional public school community, and I was one of two adults. So here's here's a witness at the scene that evening. So the letter he wrote to DEI director Nolan Young, he outlines five different types of discrimination. I'm not going to go through all of them, but the ones that I think are particularly unsettling that he witnessed. He says the third type of discrimination was language based. Neither officer spoke Spanish and they were ignoring the mother of one of the youth who was present, who had offered to drive the youth home. It was not until I arrived and he identifies himself as English speaking white male and English speaking white man that the officers tenor changed and the detention of the youth ended. The fourth was race based discrimination. Six of the nine youths were black, indigenous or people of color. None of the nine have said they feel safe coming forward to tell their side of the story for fear of retaliation, including his own child. The fifth type of discrimination was evident in the way the officers explained their behavior to me. So they began commiserating with the white man. They told me the youth were being detained because they could have been anybody, even college students. Then they tried to commiserate with me about how much trouble college students make and how many noise complaints they are responsible for. It was as if we would share a common bond of animosity towards college students and that this treatment of local youth was justified unless they could prove they were not in college. He ends with the police. They abused their authority and that they need to take responsibility. So I urge folks, if you have not seen that letter to read through it, but it just drives the point home about these young people were traumatized. And I just want us to, you know, in light of what's been shared through the letter that was read by town councilor Shalini, trauma is the lasting emotional response that often results from living through a distressing event. Experiencing a traumatic event can harm a person's sense of safety, sense of self and ability to regulate emotions and navigate relationships. So this is long term effects of trauma. So we're coming up on November 5th, four months since the July incident concerning what you all have charged us to do. That is this is clear, not what we were supposed to be doing. Right. Indeed, this whole exercise could be seen as a waste of time if there is no commitment to change to look at the policing practices and to change the culture of this town or government. These young people may be still processing this event. And in terms of trauma, it is according to an author on the subject, Chiara Amani, trauma is an experience that negatively impacts how we see God, God, ourselves or others. The youth, particularly the Africa Heritage Youth and the July 5th incident exist in a world of racial trauma already. And then there is this event where they are detained, identified, sat on a curb, told that they have no rights. What do we know about the trauma this added to their lives and how dare we presume that some of the adults saying this is a non incident. A 2020 study found that 44 percent of the Black participants reported symptoms persistent with depression and anxiety. Only one in three Black Americans in need of mental health care receives treatment. OK, so when we talk about trauma, we're already existing in trauma and this is on top of that. So this protracted process amounts to a diversion of the real work concerning equity, the APD and the town manager. It really is. We are here tonight, however, to support the repair and a process of resolution because it's emblematic of the work we have taken on the CSSJC regarding community safety and moving the community towards equity. Chief Livingstone has already spoken with us a couple of times, and he may truly believe his narrative, but it does not comport with the video what the parents William Stewart has shared with us and, more importantly, what the young people have shared about July 5th. The chief's narrative reflects his support of his officers, and that is in part why we are here in this moment. He has expressed some regret over the erroneous statement of the officer, but that does not amount to an apology that recognizes what took place, what was wrong and the recognition of harm to the youth and their families. And now as this drags on the harm to this community, the harm to this community, all we have heard besides admitting an erroneous statement is that of speculation. Had they left the young people alone, we would have had a larger problem. The chief may believe this narrative, but other facts have emerged that express a different version of events, and I'm ending here. What we do know is that recent reports from DEI and APD neglect to include the perspectives and realities of the young people. That's not personal. That's just a fact. A representative from the CSSJC appointed as a spokesperson and authorized to speak on behalf of the families to the town manager and APD, Ms. Pat, has not been invited to meet to this date with the DEI and the town manager or APD to talk directly. The town may feel that they can ignore this trusted member of our community. But again, it's ignoring the wishes of the families. In the end, we all want a speedy resolution and repair that centers the young people and their families and want the town manager or town council president to explain why that is not possible and why it's not happening. Thank you. We're continuing the discussion at this time. Are there any other comments from counselors or members of the CSSJC? Mandy, Joe, if Ms. Pat would like to speak first, she might. Ms. Pat, thank you. Good evening, all. I want to thank all the people in the audience that spoke tonight in support of the MS9 and CSSJC and speaking truth to the power. I had planned to say something different tonight, but I'm going to switch. I think what I've experienced, which is not unusual for Black women or for Blacks, is invisibility. I run a company and as a CEO, if that is a problem, I'll be responsible to make sure that it's fixed. It measures everything. Our town is sort of a corporation. Our town manager is the CEO and the town council is sort of board of directors. That was an incident on July 5th and it came to light. And there was inaction. In fact, part of the issue was that is a third party. A spokesperson for the group and it was ignored. Why? Because Black people don't count. If I were a white person, it would be different. And what I've been saying along has been validated by a white parent from Leveret because I knew the story already. The youth shared everything. And I stated it at CSSJC's meeting. I said there's some of them at the town council joint meeting that we had, but nobody believed me. I was being ignored, of course. And people who know me, that I don't care for anyone. I do what is right to the best of my knowledge. History will judge who is doing good to move this town forward. And the last thing I would say is that people have different positions about this incident and I respect all diverse opinions. But I urge everyone to follow the money in this town. To follow the money in this town. That's where people stand. If you're employed by this town, of course you will support the police. If you want to win the next election, of course you will support the police. If you have contracts with the town or you do training with the police or school committee, of course you will support the police. If you are friends or involved with business at BID, of course you will support the police. So the point of it is follow the money and see where people stand. And for me, I want action. I want action. I think our town have let our youth town, our town manager have not shown leadership. Our police chief really, really needs to step down. That's the only way we can have reconciliation in this town. Without that, it's not going to happen. He has not shown leadership at APD. He has continuously defended his staff and has attacked the youth, basically, and ignored. And I'm hoping that tonight there will be action. And not just for us, for this to be another show. Why is this so difficult to make decision for somebody to make apology? It is very difficult for white middle class to make apologies. Is that a cultural thing? Why is it difficult to settle, to do compensation? It gets done as special education. People settle agreement all the time. Why is this different? Why is it difficult to, you know, produce a comprehensive report? Because the APD are used to lack of transparency in this town. And I will stop and see how all this goes. But we're not going to stop. That I've been silenced when I tried to say for the two police to step down. I will not, you know, be silenced. I will continue to push it. And there is people in the community who wants the police chief to step down. That's the only way we can have reconciliation. Because in some segment of our town, no longer have confidence in this guy. He needs to go. He doesn't live in this town. He has no, no investment in our town. He needs to move on. Thank you. Andy, Joe, I think this is our third meeting discussing this incident. And it's really the first one that I've. Got an idea of what's being asked of the council. That could be my own fault. I'm not going to fault anyone else. But I have struggled with what as a council, a legislative body were being asked to do. So I want to say thank you to some of the CSSJC members that just spoke to be clarifying what they're asking, at least the town to do. I'm still not sure where the council falls in this. And what I heard was they would like a concrete apology from, at a minimum, the chief and the town manager for the statements that were made by the police officer. But they want accountability through the release of an investigative report and that they're formally asking for a victims compensation fund to be formed and for the nine youths involved in this to be compensated for harm. I think that begins and allows us to begin a discussion now that we know what's being asked. And it's probably a bit late for us to have finally figured that out or for me to have finally figured that out. I probably should have figured that out months ago. But I've struggled with as a legislative body, what can the council do? We are not the CEO, as Pat said, that's the town manager. We hire and review the town manager, not the police department. An accountability we've had investigative reports published. It's clear that there is a difference of opinion in this town as to whether those are sufficient or not. I'm not sure how we get to a resolution on that in my mind because some of the. Parts of the incident probably need to remain private. And, you know, there's privacy laws involved. There's other things involved in terms of seeking accountability for officers who made a mistake in the words they used. Personnel records are private and I'm not personally willing to challenge that. I don't think we can challenge that. That's that's what our state law says. You know, I think that we can begin a conversation now with some of these things. I know I'm running out of town because we time because we get three minutes. But I just wanted to say conversation is hard. But when we have an idea of what is being asked of us, we can at least begin that conversation. So I'm hoping we as a council can take those three actions and begin discussing them. I would also like to add to that one thing that I've been thinking of is how do we get? But how do we have a conversation around procedural change on the police department in procedures, but also a conversation on response to noise bylaws? And I will expand on that potentially a little later because there's been conflict amongst residents as to how this town should respond to noise bylaws, complaints and calls. Kathy, as I you need to press the button. Am I on there? The green lights. Just speak into the microphone in my mouth. It is touching my lips. Is it my mic? Is this better? Oh, much better. Much better. Thank you. I don't have to inhale it, which is excellent. As people know, I missed the last meeting. I did have the chance to watch it. I missed it partly because it was one o'clock in the morning where I was. And I would have really been dysfunctional. I want to just start by saying when starting the meeting today with an apology was, to me, such a breath of fresh air. Not one of our public comments talked about medical errors and what we're taught. And I for about 20 plus years worked in the medical world on policies. New Zealand had a no fault policy on medical errors, which the most important thing was using teachable moments trying to identify the error and apologizing. So I think we are talking about sincere apologies, not just we made a few wrong statements. The other for me, one of the teachable moments I had from years in labor and management conflict where I was on the weaker side of a minority labor union was to think before I spoke and to be really careful about the words I used. And I think that's a teachable moment for our police department as well. You know, what you say matters and the tone you use matters. So I want to leave time most of the time tonight to talk about what actions we can take. I believe strongly that we can approach the concerns that have been raised in potential areas of conflict if we have a spirit of helpfulness and we can look at ways to improve the way the clown governs and functions and learn to apologize. We can achieve the goals if we feel welcome, valued and safe. And that means counselors as well. We have to be able to make mistakes. And I just want to make sure everyone reminds ourselves. We have taken major actions and put ourselves on the map. We've invested over a million dollars in an alternative to the police force. We've hired them in record time. They're getting trained. And I think in the future, once they're ready, we can be thinking of peak, low evening holiday responses where they might be part of the group or team that goes out on noise complaints. This was all started with a resident calling the police. And I live in a district where people are begging the police to come out on noise complaints because of what happens and wishing they would respond more. And that we've assigned them that responsibility. So we put a million dollars into crests. And I think we will be a model for the state and for the country. And it's exciting. We have an incredibly skilled director. And when we say leadership from the town manager, he was able to go out and find us a terrific hire. And we need to give her a lot of support and time because she's jumping in and July 5th. Yes, she had to jump right in. And we need to be there for her as she works with Paul for Paul and she's working in teamwork. So I'm going to end my comments right then because I think before us, we have a series of motions that are actions and their follow-up actions. But I really want to remind people how remarkable the council has been. We have also set up, I forgot, and Michelle will be the first to remind me. We've set up a reparations fund that is building a long-term endowment. And again, we are one of the few communities that done that. So it's not that we've just been talking. We have been looking for ways to act. And I think we can build on these. And I think we can come several of the motions tonight. I would strongly support not all of them. And I don't know how Lynn plans on handling it, which is why I having a menu like this for me is sheer delight. And I just want to assure everybody in this audience that's not normally the council, how often Lynn cuts me off. So it's not because I talked too long. So I'm going to stop right now so I can come back when we get to the actions. It's one of my most unpleasant jobs. Jennifer. Thank you. So I guess picking up on what Kathy said and also responding to the speakers and Ms. Pat, I was, it kind of brings us to the motion because I think the motion that's this may not be the time to get into a discussion of the motion, but I do think that Councilor Miller's amended motion would do a lot to begin the repair. And what I among them will discuss the motion later, but among the many amendments to your motion that I really appreciated and I think is extremely important is that we establish a consensus on the factual record of what transpired during the incident on July 5th. And we also establish a connect consensus on the factual record of the follow-up to that incident. Because when I, it was always my sense that we were not getting, we, the counselors and the public were not getting the full picture of what transpired on July 5th. And when the letter came from Mr. Stewart, I realized he wasn't there for the entire incident, but he was there for maybe 40 minutes and it was like the missing piece. And I am struggling with why that wasn't included, particularly in the addendum we received to the reports at the last meeting. And I should have appreciated it from the very, I did, but I'm even more so appreciated that the trauma that was involved, if in fact, not if, I mean, that there wasn't a group of nine until they were rounded up together and that some of the youth were just at somebody's house and they heard something outside, they went outside and then they were rounded up. And I can't imagine how that must have felt. So it was, so I feel badly, I am struggling with that we didn't respond in the way we would have had that information sooner. And so I think it's very important that we do reach some shared consensus on what happened that evening and then on the follow-up. And when you bring that together with what happened at Hampshire College, which we just learned about this past weekend, it does beg the question of that the police that protocols have to be looked at. Cause we have been told that responses to both incidents, the department was following protocol. So maybe the protocols need to, some of the protocols need to be revisited because it seems like there's an airing, not on restraint, but on maybe being overly aggressive. And that is a concern. I don't wanna digress into what happened at Hampshire College, but that was also a very concerning incident. And it hurt me that the Dean of Students felt that they needed to instruct the community to contact the town and our police department as a last resort. So I know we'll be discussing the motions in more detail, but I do think at least one of the motions is broad enough and specific enough to get us on the path to repair. And I hope that we can vote to approve a step going forward that will begin to get us to healing because we do have a lot of work to do. Thank you. I just wanna remind people we are not discussing the motions at this time, okay? Pam. Thank you. I think we all want to believe that Amherst treats everyone equally and that our police force is well-trained to anticipate mixed ages, mixed backgrounds and the day-to-day work. And they do it reasonably well, but hearing the stories and seeing almost firsthand with Father's letters and memos from Ms. Pat, that we sort of learn how the youth were treated. It really opens our eyes to the fact that bias does exist. I want to acknowledge that and that the heavy handedness of this particular incident could have been a very different outcome. It could have been a very positive and healthy one and helpful one for the driver with a flat tire or the friends who hung out with him. Their experience as they were handled by the police, in fact, unfortunately reinforced the bias and discrimination and I'm really, really sad about that. I would like as an action item just to have the police department acknowledge and apologize that the actions affected those youth, acknowledge it, it did affect them. I want the Amherst police department to update its policy on how to work with youth. All without I'm sure jeopardizing its stature, its presence and its purpose on other calls across the year and with other entities. I think it can do it without the extensive of somehow losing faith in the community. I also support very strongly the creation of the resident oversight board and that needed to have happened already. Those are my two action items and I would look forward to motions to move this thing for conclusion. Thank you. Alicia. Thank you. So I have a lot that I wanna say and I'm not gonna say everything that I want to say right now because some of it is more pertaining to other portions of the meeting. Partially that and partially because this is a very difficult conversation and I'm feeling like very emotional right now. And one of the things that's like, one of the emotions that I'm really strongly feeling is anger to be very honest. And that is because I worked for a year and was barely compensated for my time as did many other people on this meeting right now to try to tell you these things. So for the response to be I'm just now understanding what you're asking from us when there is a whole written report from over a year ago and a whole matrix that we created as a council with concrete steps that we could have taken earlier to hopefully prevent things like this from happening makes me very upset and very frustrated. And I'm upset and frustrated because like it affects me but also because it affects so many people in this community. And I think this conversation really, really fails to honor perspective. Like we all have our own perspectives. We're all entitled to our own perspectives but when you're trying to think about and deal with a conversation that is coming from the perspective of someone else that is where I think we do not succeed as a town because you can't understand people if you don't believe them. And we don't believe people who have different perspectives than we do. This incident is very concerning. I have lived in this town for my entire life. There are a lot of people on this meeting who have not lived here in their entire life. So did not grow up here as a person of color, as a low-income person of color and now as a parent of children of color going to school here. I have seen this happen so many times. This is not the first time. And that is why the CSWG was created and we came up with all these things and we talked to other people. This is not a like a unique experience of some people. And that is why we can't just say like oh, yes, we are only going to address this incident. Yes, we need to address this incident and we need to make like real changes because these things will continue to happen and they have been happening before this. Just because we don't believe people because it wasn't caught on video does not mean it wasn't happening. I care about the people in this town. Like the black men and the black women in this town are my friends and my family. This happens too much. We don't need to have this conversation anymore. We just need to do something. I'm so sorry, Alicia. I'm so sorry too. All the people who suffer in this town because of the color. My son is a person of color and he's been called Osama Bin Laden go back home. So I know not the same way that you know but I know what it means to be a person of color in this community. And I also know that all the counselors sitting here I also know that the members of the CSSJC who have been working so hard sitting out in the car in the dark in the cold and their committee before that the CSWG that worked so hard. I believe in the people. I believe in our town even though we're making mistakes. I know we're nowhere close to where we want to be. But I do know that we heard you when 100 people came here and shared the experiences of living in fear in this community, we heard you which is why we supported the creation of the community responders program. We heard you when the reparations fund was proposed. I was one of the sponsors of that. When the whole nation is debating whether we should have reparations or not our town supported it. We supported the DEI department based on the recommendations of the CSWG and we are so fortunate because every department, every school is looking for a DEI director right now and we were so fortunate to have Ms. Pamela Young to lead our department. Moving forward, what we don't have right now what we're talking about accountability we're talking about process we don't have that in place right now. And what we do need desperately and based on the community safety working groups proposal recommendation was the creation of a residence oversight board. So we have started working on the Cres on the DEI and the department but one of the first things that the DEI director was supposed to do is the creation of a residence oversight board that will take care of these and will look into these problems in the future. So I really feel that all of us need to do everything we can to support the creation of the residence oversight board. And I will speak more when we speak to the motions. Dorothy. Kim, I agree that is a good thing the work we've been doing the new committees that we have formed and the new departments we have formed and the people who've been able to speak and to try to reach us through those new committees. But the thing I want to say now is that it's a very grave mistake to underestimate the effect of trauma and anxiety because I feel that's what's been happening all this time. You've had parents and people from the BIPOC community telling you that this youth are really traumatized and other people saying, why? What's the problem? It turned out okay, didn't it? And I just have to relate it to an experience of mine which does not have to do with race because I'm a white person. But years ago, I was in a victim of an attempted rape in the bathroom at the school where I was teaching in the South Bronx. And it was stopped by some students who came in and stopped it. So at some point somebody said, so what's the problem? Nothing happened. Well, I'll tell you that was 40 years ago. Was it 50 years ago? I don't know how many years it's ago but I cannot enter a public bathroom without that anxiety overcoming me and I have to look under the every door to see if there are any feet and anyone hiding in there. Trauma doesn't go away. The fact that I continue to live a life where I can go out in public and overcome it and the kids are able to get up and go to school and function doesn't mean that their trauma is nothing and it's not important. It is very important and I am very upset about it and it has not been treated well by this town. It has been minimized and people have just really not believed others when they say it's real. And I do thank Mr. William Stewart. His letter was great. I wanna know why it wasn't revealed to us. It was sent to the DEI office a long time ago and I didn't get it till recently. I don't feel that we have really been dealing with openness. I think we need to be more open and I think there has to be accountability and I think that we have to stop thinking that if we just follow little rules and do with a meeting the right way somehow it'll go away because the problem is not gonna go away. It's not gonna go away unless we do something positive about it and we have to treat the anxiety and the trauma of the young people seriously. They feel that all the lessons they were told about behave well, speak respectfully, the police are your friend, they're not gonna get you if you don't do anything stupid and silly. They've kind of lost some trust. I hope they can regain their trust but it should not be underestimated that something very bad happened here and it's been ignored. And I would like to hear some of the leadership of the town speak strongly about that. Thank you. Amanda Jo. I don't know, I'm not sure anyone on the council has questioned whether the youth are harmed. I know I've accepted that they say they're harmed and I'm not going to question and say that well, from my perspective, they haven't been. They've said they're harmed. I'm going to accept that they've been harmed. I think where I struggle is whose responsibility is it to repair the harm and it's hard to speak in public because we don't always say the right words and what we're thinking. So I'm hoping I'm not being taken with the wrong meaning but part of what the CSWG said when they were doing their report is basically in my understanding that basically every police interaction causes harm. Whether that's with a white person, with a black person there are differing degrees of harm but every interaction does because sadly, that's sort of how it's designed in a sense is it creates an emotional harm. You don't know what's going to happen. You don't know what the outcome's going to be. You may or may not have been breaking a rule. You may or may not get a ticket. If you end up not getting a ticket you've still gone through that experience that probably has emotional harm. Where I struggle with the repair question is does every interaction result in a harm that is there a different type of harm that should result in some sort of compensation that I'm hearing requested from members of this community or is the harm that was suffered the same harm basically that is suffered by anyone who has the cops called on them? Because we have to remember that there was a 911 call and that the police department responded to that 911 call. And so that's part of where I struggle with some of the requests and some of what our responsibility is is because when I look at our town and I'm just gonna take noise complaints. We have a lot of noise complaints called into this town. And I can accept that the people who are on the receiving end of those noise complaints the ones that are at the property when the police show up have harm. They have emotional distress when the police show up. But does that automatically, should that automatically result in compensation for repair? And that's where I'm struggling and where I don't know what the answer is and I don't know how to deal with that and whether this incident outside of the comment that was as everyone has admitted erroneous and the comment about no rights was absolutely erroneous. I don't know whether that rises to a level of harm that is different from harm that is experienced by anyone who has had the cops called on them in this town. And so I just struggle with that and I don't know what the right answer is. I don't know what the right response is and that's what I'm trying to work through. Breaking. Out of the reticence that I seem to observe with this committee and with the town in general comes because we will end up using words that could be misinterpreted and that seems to be a trend that I've seen this evening. The incident itself played out because words were used in an improper way. And I think we run the risk of also adding two words being used wrongly. And I would suggest good for members of this August body and for the public to be careful with the words that we use in the sense that words that we use should bring people together rather than tear them apart. I think one of the few things that I would just like to point out is we might use the word accountability but if we have multiple accounts then what is accountable? We may be looking to have action for this event that took place but the fact remains that whatever we do in this particular instance is going to be the benchmark for what comes next. Therefore, it's important to find out what happened this time so that we can actually learn from the experience. It is not enough, I would say, to appease a chorus simply to act. We need to know before acting and so when we act we can build this better future that we want for the town. And I'd like to end by saying that one of the reasons I joined the committee is I have been teaching and I've been teaching political science and I wanted to know how government works and this has been an educational experience that can be taught in the four walls of a classroom. And for that I am appreciative but I would listen to caution us that by our words we don't undermine the system of government that we have. What do I mean by this? What I mean is we have a representative system and sometimes we need to as representatives act and deliberate in a way that would be a reflection for how we want the liberation to happen in public. What we had last month wasn't the proper way to deliberate and I'm hoping that as we move forward we put ourselves out there as examples for how we can deliberate properly and push forward with building a much better way. Thank you. Thank you very good. Debra. Yeah, thank you. I guess I wanted to address some of what Councilor Mandy Jo asked in terms of harm. I think again like Alicia was saying earlier you know we at the CSWG we hired Seventh Gen and we shared accounts, right? They went into the community they spoke with a variety of different people of different languages, cultures, ethnicities all of whom said that the way that they were treated or mistreated by the police was very much the harm that occurs, right? So in terms of when you're dealing and so I'm Councilor Mandy Jo when the police are dealing with and we talked about the creation of the police as patties that used to chase down African slaves, right? From back then and that was the inception of the police, right? And a lot of the philosophy of the police has been drawn from that history and we talked about how in this over and over again people shared people also contacted during all the town meetings that we had at CSWG people of color, BIPOC people talking about the interactions. Me as a black woman, right? If I have a flat tire, if I have anything my first thought is not to call the police is not to call the police for help. I am nervous because I know that as a black woman the police will not see me as someone that they're gonna help they'll probably they'll see me as a criminal. That is the difference between, you know when the police showed up there with young people while one is the treatment of young people and also being a BIPOC, right? Is how they relate it to that group, right? Which instead of it being something of helping it was more so of shutting down and intimidating. And if you go and you ask BIPOC people over and over again and we showcase that over a year their interactions with the police by and large 99% out of the time is negative. It's not showing up to a help and to assist. There were even incidences of them saying like I asked the police for help and instead of them helping me they're questioning me as I'm the one that was creating the problem. So I don't know what it is that we have to do as BIPOC people in this community and Amherst to showcase, right? Do we have to I guess, right? Do we have to get beat up, beat down? You know what I'm saying? Like end up in the hospital or God forgive someone dead for that to happen to showcase that. That's what we're trying to prevent. That's what we're trying to tell you all to send a strong message and to act now as opposed to having us, right? You know, continue to retraumatize us by saying prove, prove the harm by BIPOC people, prove it. We don't believe you over and over and over and over again. I'm just like, I just don't get it. I have two, you know, my sons, black kids. I'm trying to protect them from what could obviously happen to them in this town as being black boys and black men who is 18. My oldest is 18 soon to be 19. And what could happen to him? I don't need to continue to prove it to you all. We've shown the data. We've shown you, we've interviewed people. We've shown you all the harm. We're telling you the harm. Why is it again that you all do not believe us? Time for action. Stop asking us to prove it. Allegra, Allegra, we can't hear you. Not very well. We can hear you better. We're sorry we can't see your face, but I'll try this. And let me know if it doesn't work. So I just wanted to draw maybe a comparison to the recovery community. And you might have heard that in Alcoholics Anonymous, if people are doing step work and they get to the ninth step, they're supposed to make amends to people who they have harmed. And they talk about direct amends. So that might be an apology directly to somebody who they have harmed for this specific behavior. And they talk about a living amends, which is changing the way that you are or changing the way that your behavior always will be to make sure that the harm never happens again. So I think kind of to Mandy Jo's point of how do we know when, which harm is deserving enough of repair. I think the answer is all of them. And whether that repair is just a direct apology or direct compensation through a justice compensation fund if one is established, we also have to think about the living repairs or the ongoing changing of the system so that the harms aren't revisited to that person again. So that's where the CSWG's other recommendations come into place by reducing the size and scope of the Amherst Police Department so that there's less opportunity for the BIPOC residents to come into contact with the police department. And especially in, I think one of the biggest examples given was in traffic stops. So we're not doing consent searches. We're not pulling people over on a whim and then making up a reason for why pretext stops is what it's really called. We're putting these alternatives in place so that we're providing supportive services to the community so that there's not going to be the interaction with the police in the first place. That is another way to reduce the harm. And I hope that that comparison is helpful and accurate to what the CSWG's intentions were, but that's kind of a way that I've conceptualized it in my own thinking about it. And the proactive safety model that I think the CSWG put forward and the CSSJC is continuing to ask for. Thank you. Like I just want to mention that your sound was fine once you got into it or did some final adjustment. And so if you would like to turn your camera back on, I think it would be fine, okay? Yeah, Shalini? Yes, I'm still hearing the same sense of urgency that we need a process to determine the harm caused and how that can be, what is the reconciliation process for that? But I would be remiss if I didn't talk about the context of this specific thing. So there are two separate things, I believe. One is that we all agree that we need a process, we need a residence oversight board, including the police. The police are also supporting the creation of a residence oversight board, they've supported the community responders. So we're all on board with all of these recommendations. But aside from that, and then that's because we're responding to the urgency, we know we want the change, right? The second thing is this specific incident and I feel that since we were only given a 53 second video, no one came forward with a longer video. So the context is, it was mentioned in the DEI director's report and I believe it was in the police, but I missed it. And I believe many people have missed the context within which the statement was made by the police and I just want to highlight that. So in the starting of the video, the police is saying, dude, I don't need to hear that you have your rights. And that statement was made in the context, in a particular context. And I want to restate that. The context was that the police were called for a noise complaint. The protocol when there's a violation of a noise by-law is that the police comes, they did not have their sirens on, which is not required in the situation. They arrived at the place and they asked for identification, which is part of the process. Now, if we don't like that process, that's a separate issue and we can discuss that. But as it stands, they were following the protocol as it stands, which is asking for the ID. At that point, the youth were refusing to show their ID and that's captured in the video somewhat. And it was substantiated by other people who have come forward and spoken to me and will not reveal their names because again, they are concerned about the backlash. So there are people who are supporting what happened. There was a youth who were refusing to show their ID that why do you need our ID? And there could be many reasons why they were refusing to show their ID and not gonna go into that. But it was in that context when the youth said, I have my rights and you don't have a right to ask me for the ID. It was in response to that. The erroneous statement was made. It is still incorrect. It is still wrong that the police said, dude, you've lost your rights. But when you hear it in the context, you've lost your rights because you have violated the noise by-law and you need to show your ID. The impact and the intention of that statement is very different than when we think of it as police going around and using their power to abuse power. So I just wanted to offer that context. That being said, I am not judging the harm caused to anyone because we can never speak for anybody. But what I do hear is again, the urgency to create a residence oversight board. So we don't spend three months, so many of us struggling because we are not the right body to do that. And so again, I am urgently asking us to support the DEI director and giving her all the resources she needs to start working on creating a residence oversight board. Thank you. D. Yes. So, you know, Shalini, I'm gonna focus on the last part that you said because that's really what we're here for to talk about the urgency. You know, going back to the context and these young people weren't charged with anything, you're putting false statements out there. I mean, if we go back to William Stewart's letter, he's telling you that these were three different pots of youth that were brought together. So, you know, I don't understand some of the motives of people to prop up this inconsistency with people who we employ and pay to protect us, to protect our youth. I am really dismayed and I feel so disenfranchised by you for district five. I really do, to prop up that myth. So I just want to, you know, have us come back to what's really at hand. The urgency as Shalini did say about trying to repair and heal in this community. And I think we need to go back to what we asked. We even provided in a slide PowerPoint. So I don't know why any counselor would have missed it. The same message, the same message that we're bringing you here tonight. And I hope to God in the universe that we can finally settle it so these young people and their families could get on with their life and we could get on, you know, trying to look at equity and community safety in Amherst. Thank you. I just, this is the first time that I speak in tonight. So I just want to thank everybody for speaking and members of the community. I've been a little bit quiet just because I'm reflecting on myself as a Mexican-American citizen on Dia Stela Moipo. So I just want to give attention to that for that moment. But I want to talk to the point of protocol and procedure and systemic racism. We can have things in place that may make sense, yet the protocol is different for others. And I'll give you an example for my own personal self with the APD as a resident of this town. I work in this town and our alarm system goes off pretty often because people put in the wrong code. It goes off and to my understanding, you go out because it triggers our police response and you show your ID, you verify who you are and then you move about your day. I was sharing this information with a fellow colleague of mine who was white and I told her this, that, you know, you're gonna need your ID, you're gonna need this, like make sure you know, say who you are. And another person came and also white said, what are you talking about? I never show my ID. They said, huh. So I went around to my colleagues, ones that I trusted, all white. And at first I thought it was possibly a gender thing. I thought maybe, you know, I might be a scary male walking around. So maybe that might be it. Then I went to my white colleagues that are male and they said, no, never shown an ID. I was the only person in the building that has to show an ID. And I don't know the reason why other than that it has to be the color of my skin. And so therefore, if it is a protocol to ID someone that an alarm triggering is going off, makes sense to me. Yet that protocol is not practiced to any of my white colleagues. It's only practiced against me, a person of color. And so with that, I just want us to reflect on systemic racism as an overall issue of the town. And that incident is dealt in with APD, a relevant police department in this conversation. So I want us to possibly come up with a way. How do we at 842 at this meeting come to all these action items that are to come and this meeting lasts way longer than it probably needs to. And with that on. Philip, that's a good point. Unless someone else would like to make a comment that is in the audience, we're going to get back to public comment for those of you that are in the audience. I'm sorry. We are going to get back to public comment for those of you that are in the audience once we move to the next portion of the agenda. But is there anybody else in the audience who would like to say anything at this point during this discussion period? If not, we'll take a break. We're going to come back. I'm going to move to the action items. And during action items, there will be an opportunity for both the members of CSSJC and the audience to make public comment. So let's take a break. It is 843. Let's plan to be back. Lynn, there is one with a hand raised. Two people there. I'm sorry. There are two people with their hands raised for the public comment you just opened. No, we didn't open public comment. I'm sorry if that was misunderstood. We're going to open public comment again once we get into the action items. Is that acceptable, Pat? Yes. So we're taking a break and then we're coming back and you're going to have these people speak. Then we're going to come back and we're going to move to the action items. Michelle. Just to clarify, you did, Lynn, just say if anybody else in the audience would like to. You did. I misspoke. I'm very, very sorry. If there's anybody else who is in the room who would like to make any other comment, I do apologize for miss speaking. And for the people who are in the audience, there will be another public comment. Once we move into the action items. So with that, we're going to take a break until 855. And then come back. When you come back, please turn your video back on and we'll make sure everybody can hear you. So that I know you're here. Okay. We need to begin to reassemble, turn your video back on when you are back at your computer. So that I know that you are here. As you return, please turn your video back on. As you return, please turn your video back on. So that we know you're here. I'm just going to ask people who don't have their videos on to just confirm that they can hear us and we can hear them. Deborah. Yeah, I can hear you. I can't have my video on because I'm driving. Absolutely. Deborah, we understand that. That's why I decided to check with boys versus videos. Thank you, Shane. Can you hear us? Yes. And Deborah drives safely. Don't talk with your hands. Okay. Thank you. Anna Devon got here. Yes, I can hear you. Thank you. Okay. I'm going to assume all the other people can hear you. So what we agreed to was that during the action items. We're going to have, there were, there were several. Motion submitted. Okay. Let me just start with that. Several counselors submitted motions. By noon yesterday. Those motions are posted along with the original motion in the packet. And we're prepared to pull every one of those motions out. And while I had discussions with the town attorney at the motions, none of them are. Inappropriate. It's just that. A lot of steps would be needed. To be taken to do some of them. And we can talk about that as we go along. As we proceed with the action items. I'm going to call on people in the order in which the motions are printed. Although I may forget who submitted what, and they are anonymous. And as Andy and others have asked, we're going to let people speak to their motions. But I want to make an observation before we move on. The real difference between the motions before you now, although there's more motions that could be, could be put before you are. Do we form a working group? And if so, what is its charge? And, or do we ask the town manager, manager to address and his staff to address certain issues? And if so, what issues do we want them to address? Okay. Now, again, there may be other motions that I have not seen. Although I'm aware of that. Two that have been worked on since then. So with that, we're going to start. Athena, are you, are, is Sean putting. The motions up. Or am I? I'll put them up. I think it's best if Sean or you can. Okay. So. In front of you is the. I think it's best if Sean or you can. Okay. So. In front of you is the. In front of you. In front of you. In front of you is the. We can't see it very well. There we go. In front of you is. The motion. That was made by counselor Miller by Michelle. On October 17th. That motion is to refer the matter of the incident occurring on July 5th. Involving two police officers. And nine youths to the CSSJC HRC. HRA. To collaboratively review the incident. With the input of the DEI department. And other appropriate staff. And in consultation with the town attorney. For the purposes of making a recommendation to the town council to repair the harm. And reconcile the incident by November 21st. 2022. I promise you, I'm not going to read all these motions. But Michelle, would you like to speak to that? Pat. Yes. I'm looking at this. And it says motions postponed by counselors. Hannecke and Dean Angelis. I'm sorry. The phone is ringing. I'm assume I did not. Propose. To postpone. Michelle's motion. I'm sorry. Pat. That was. That was a bad copy paste on my part. Absolutely. Incorrect. Thank you. It was a motion to postpone by councilor Hannecke. So Michelle. You made this motion. You never had an opportunity to speak to it. And since then I'm aware that you've given me another motion. Would you like to speak to this. And also. Some sense of your next motion, which is the motion that's on the agenda. And it's the next one. And you can take these motions down for the moment. Yes. Thank you. I would like to speak to the previous motion as well as to the new motion. That I'm proposing tonight. And I have tried to reserve my speaking time until now. So thank you. When I proposed a motion at the October 17th meeting, my hope was quite literally to create motion. Following months of inaction. And recognizing that we are in conflict as a council and as a community about how to resolve this incident. While I wasn't sure what the ideal approach was. I had some goals. The first goal was to move the matter out of the town council. So that deeper, more meaningful discussion occur. The second was to defer to committees that were charged with issues related to human rights. Public safety. Social justice and repair. All germane to this incident. Committees that are composed largely of black and brown. Residents in a community in which an overwhelmingly disproportionate level of power is in the hands of white people. The third was to create a process. That in my heart and mind. Gave the community the best opportunity to heal and repair the harm that this incident has caused. In Ms Romney's words. To engage in dialogue focused on bridging differences in the interest of community and justice. I believe in the process of reconciliation. Of consensus building. Of waiting through the layers of complexity necessary to create meaningful. And sustained change. I believe that repair is possible. Even in response to the darkest of matters. Tonight I'm proposing a new motion. That honors the spirit of my original motion. And fleshes out what I see as a healthy and powerful pathway forward. This does not and should not preclude the council or the town manager. From taking immediate and direct actions. On the recommendations made by the CSSJC. Such as the creation of a resident oversight board. A justice compensation fund. And an immediate review of police policies. In their July 29th letter. In fact, many of my colleagues have suggested such actions in their draft motions. With some which I'm looking forward to hearing more about tonight. While I have a question. I'm looking forward to hearing more about tonight. While I wholeheartedly believe in this approach that I'm offering. I'm open to other approaches that will bring justice and healing. And now we'll honor the committee that was put in place to advise on these matters. Before I read my motion, I, or maybe I won't read it. Maybe it's not going to be read out loud, but before the motion is read or however we'll proceed with the motion, I want to clarify two things. Establishing consensus about what has transpired. Is the first step in a reconciliation process. Consensus does not mean we will all agree on all things. It helps us to navigate through our conflict and differences in an intentional way. It helps us to build trust. And create spaces for listening to diverse perspectives. It helps us to understand what is going on. From that space, the group can develop a proposal that honors the deeper wisdom of the community. The purpose of my proposed committee is not to reinvestigate the matter. To cross over into executive roles or to violate the privacy of a staff member or members. It is about creating a democratic process. Guided by committees that were created to address such matters. So I think it's important for us to be able to make sure that we have the opportunity to help black and brown people. To develop a recommendation that can repair and heal our community. And so with that, however, you'd like to go forward with, would you like me to read the motion, Lynn? Or. No, we're. Why don't you describe the motion? Okay. Sure. Yeah. So the motion. Calls for an ad hoc committee. It would include nine voting members from the president of the town council. It would include nine voting members. And the members would be three counselors, two members of the community safety and social justice committee, two members of the human rights commission, two members of the African heritage reparation assembly, and one non-voting community liaison member of the APD. The motion is to develop a proposal for repair and reconciliation and the focus on the incident that we're discussing the matter of July 5th between two police officers and nine youths. The proposal will be in accordance with Massachusetts general law and other laws, regulations and policies. I propose that the committee shall clarify definitions and establish a shared language. Shall establish consensus on the factual record of what transpired in the incident. Establish consensus on the factual record of follow up regarding the incident. Through the present. Identify and recognize specific harms caused from the incident through the present. Research and explore models for repair, including procedural policy and compensatory options. And then to develop a proposed plan for repair, including a concrete prop process for handling future similar incidents. And the town manager APD and the DEI and crest director would participate in meetings and discussions as relevant and deemed appropriate by the body. We would obtain legal review by the town attorney as needed. And then report back. And I am very flexible with this date. This date was February 6th, February 6th. And then it was March 23rd, which does seem way too long considering what we've are. How long we've already waited to address this. However, if we're establishing a committee and going to go through this process, it could take us some time to do so, but I'm open to an amendment on that. And then of course, the report would be provided to the town council with its approval. Thank you. Can we take this down for the moment? Pardon me. Is the, is Councillor Miller making this motion at this time? She is not at this time. I'm not. No, because I, what I heard people say was they wanted all of the motions to be presented and. Have the person who. The motion to be presented to the town council. They would then speak to their motion, which you did. And then we would go on and make sure people understand the rest of the motions that are in the docket. Is that, is that what we agreed to? And that sounds like a fair process to me. Okay. So Dorothy, you have your hand up. I just wanted to make sure that you have your hand up. So Dorothy, you have your hand up. I just wanted to say, I thought that Michelle did a great job in her thoroughly thought through and researched motion. And I like it best of all of them. Partly because of that, but also because it has the NYPD or representative at the table. And I think that's very important. I think, and not to use the committees that we've set up recently would be then what do we do? Why do we make them in the first place, you know, in the first place? I think it's a great group. I think it includes this extra work of showing up and having meetings. So I think it. And I like it that it's balanced between the counselors. And the. I think it's a great, it's a great group. I think it includes the police at the table. And it involves the town manager and the DEI. As they see fit and as the committee sees fit. So I think it's a great compromise. I think it's a great group. I think it's a great group. I think it's a great group. I think it's a great group for each of the people who made. Put forward motions. To speak to their motion. And then we'll go and start. Deciding what to do with them. Okay. And let me just say motion to actually. Was one of my two motions. And I. Lynn, can we ask a question? Michelle? Michelle, are you. The. Substitute motion. Are you substituting. The motion that has the different parts to it. For the motion you made a week ago. I'm actually offering withdrawing and offering a new motion. That's, that's what I was asking. So that. The motion on the table, you're withdrawing and saying, here's what I'm proposing. That's what. So I'm just, I'm actually going to put an X through one. And that's how many I'm working with. Thank you. Sure. Pat, is this a clarifying question? I'm. I'm interested in why. Only the APD is listed and why not a representative of Chris. But I can hold that question. Let's again, try to get. All right, the second motion is one of the two I submitted. I keep looking for solutions and never sure I'm to have one. And this was similar to what Michelle offered, but it's more limited in its scope because it was a recommend to recommend to the town council, but it's a program of action to promote repair and reconciliation in the Amherst community. I can and more than glad to speak to why I limited this, but I can also save that because there is a second time that I also have a motion at the very end. But let me just say that I am concerned that. And you can take the motion down. Okay. I truly recognize and acknowledge that people have been harmed. Okay. And I truly recognize the determination. And serious commitment of the CSS JC members. To make sure that that harm is recognized and addressed. What concerns me is I'm trying to choose my words carefully and it's very hard. I think what concerns me is that because of what we've learned mostly through the African heritage reparations assembly discussions about their discussions regarding a fund for money that would go to individuals is that is it could take a long period of time. It could take a long period of time. Whether we want to pursue that or not is not. I'm not, that's not my question on the table. It just would take a long period of time. And I would like to see us begin to do. Some additional things that help. Repair the community. Okay. I think that is the right way to go or not. I debate that to this day. Okay. But my goal was trying to put forward something. Where other pursuits can be happening. But there is a discussion. And some commitment. To. Activities. That. For help repair the community. And. Excuse me. Create the conversations. I think. Many of us. While we may be. Afraid to have them. We need to have. So that was my goal in that motion. I'm. I'm not going to go into anything more at this point, but Andy, you had the next one. Yes, I did. Let me first say that. Well, some people are not sure. In fact, I was listening very carefully to all of the comments and discussion. It was happening in the first part of the meeting. And I. Chose not to speak during that entire time. Because I decided at this point. It was my learning opportunity. And the only way I could learn was to hear from all of you. So I want to thank everybody who spoke at the beginning part of the meeting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. What happened at the last meeting? And I think we all were. Distressed by. The way that it played out in the end. And. I. Regret that. When we got to the point that. Michelle made the motion that was on the table. And she said, I appreciate the general concerns about it. I appreciated the fact that she was trying to think about. Establishing a process to move forward. There were some concerns that I had about it. And I think that her substitute addresses some of the same issues. That I put in. The amended version of her motion, which is motion. That we had a small enough group that it really could work together. And have effective conversation. Because the one, one of the things was evident in our last meeting is. That when it gets contentious. A large. Group and that would have even been larger than we had. Because it was combining three committees. Could have been quite out of hand. Second of all. I felt that the. Lack of council representation. Was problematic. And the third is that I didn't want to use any language in the motion setting it up. That assumed a finding that the committee would ultimately be charged to make. And I was a little bit anxious about some wording along those lines. That was suggesting. That was the purpose of it. I don't see any reason to pursue the motion that I have made his motion. Three. Because it has now been. Incorporated in several others. Remember when, when I wrote it. I did not see anybody else's work and nobody saw my work. So it was all. Each of us working independently of each other. And so I'm not going. Ask to pursue mine separately because I think that the. Principles are incorporated elsewhere. The other thing that. I wanted to say was in regard to. Number five, which we will get to in a moment. That. It is a model of. Moving forward with. Getting the. Oversight board. Established and looking at the process to establish the oversight board. What the oversight. Board might look like. And I. I'm very intrigued by that concept. I'll leave it there. Thank you. So, Andy, I am. Taking from what you just said that you are withdrawing your motion. Yes. You can go ahead and make that assumption. I am withdrawing. Motion. Okay. Thanks. Motion for. I believe Andy Joe, your motion for. Yup. So there are two there because I wanted to separate. Two separate issues. And I'm very intrigued by that concept. I'll leave it there. Thank you. So Andy, I am. Taking from what you just said that you are withdrawing your motion. I'm very intrigued by that concept. And I'm very intrigued by that concept. So I'm going to go ahead and make two separate issues. Instead of trying to combine them into one motion. In thinking about the motion that. I had postponed discussion on. From two weeks ago so that I could think about what the. That one was asking and where it was going and what it was seeking and what the repercussions of that would be. So I think that's a great conclusion. That. I think it's. More appropriate for the town manager. To be doing the investigation than for us to be forming another committee or asking other committees to do so. You know, our charter tasks, our town manager with. The city council. For administering personnel policies, practices, contracts, rules, regulation. Rules and regulations and for investigating and inquiring into the fairs of any town agency under the authority of the manager. And so, you know, what I thought about in terms of how do we move forward. And I thank Michelle for. Proposing something that. Was a very specific action. Was that. We probably do need a review of our public safety protocols. It's clear that there is unhappiness with how. Those protocols are being executed or whether those protocols are even appropriate or industry standard. I don't know the answer to that. I'm not sure any of our committees could know the answer to that. I would entrust that our town manager could figure it out or hire or consultants or consult the right people to figure out what industry standard for response to particularly. Incidents involving minors should be. And so the first of the two motions is, is to look at. Dealing with what, how do we deal with. Incidents or calls that when. And I don't know what the best answer to that is. And so I think the manager is the right person to task with looking at those rules and regulations to make sure they are. Appropriate and what our town wants, but also fall within the appropriate. Standards or protocols that. Are out there. And then the second one is. In response to the calls for a resident oversight committee. I am. Not sure that. Residents who have no experience. Or limited experience in overseeing. Public safety actions. Is the right way to go for an independent oversight authority. It may be. I'm not expert enough or knowledgeable enough to know if that's the right way. And so the second motion is. Is trying to task the town manager again, because I think he's smart, the more appropriate. Place to do this. To figure out what the options are for. Having some oversight. Particularly when there are community concerns about the city. I think that's the right way to go. I think that's the right way to go. I think that's the right way to go. And then the public safety department. Whether that be our director, whether it be a combination of other staff in town, whether it be a combination of staff and. Community people. I don't know. And so this motion goes to the. Trying to say. Let's explore those options and see what we have option wise. What we could do. But I think that the. I don't think that the appropriate for our town may be, it may end up being a resident oversight committee. It may end up being something else, but it would give us, I'm hoping away the recommendation back and the report back would give us a way to talk about specifics instead of just a general, we need a resident oversight committee, or we need some sort of independent investigative authority. That would be the right way to go, but I don't think that. That's the right way to go. I think that would be the right way to go about that. I don't think that the appropriate for the real estate. I don't think that we're going to get a lot of emotional emotions. Dorothy, do you have a clarifying question. Yes. Just so you're proposing not to study or clarify the issue, but to, to work on some of the things that the committees have recommended. Which seem reasonable. But. You've, you've left out the committees that we have created, that I have really been a fan of the town manager. But at this moment, he's a white man and I've heard some people of color saying that they thought maybe it was time that they had a chance to actually try to deal with one of these things. And so I would suspect the town manager would not want to have the whole burden of this put on himself, which is why he has been such an enthusiastic person in creating Cress and in helping set up the committees. So I'm just putting forward that as a possibility. Thank you. Anna. Thank you. The second motion, Mandy, is this not currently underway and I'm curious to know if this is saying start over for the work that's been done from the DEI director on establishing a process for the resident oversight board. How does this differ? Is it the same? Is that? I'm actually, Anna and Jo, do you wanna address that? Sure, please. I don't intend it to be a start over. I would expect it to be any work or any reporting to incorporate everything that's already been done, but to also, if that's the way that we think is the appropriate way a resident oversight board, that's great. I just don't know, so I didn't wanna say that's the right one, go do that. But I also think it's a way to endorse through council action any of the work that is already being done. Okay, thank you. Pam. I like the fact that you are pushing forward on safety protocols, public safety protocols. I like the fact that you are looking at how to respond to complaints and basically create the oversight authority. However, I'm a little concerned that what you're asking is for the supervisor to create a team basically without specificity, but create a team that reviews internal processes and does not appear to allow independent thinking or thought. And there's obviously again, no inclusion of the groups that have already been formed. So I like some of the action items, but I don't think I could support either of the two motions without some of the others guidelines that were in motion number one. Thank you. Yeah, I thought that the DEI director had been tasked with forming, that was one of her goals for the year, a resident oversight board. So I'm confused about why we'd be revisiting that. I was assuming that was in process. I guess that's a question. That has been our understanding is that it's in process. Mr. Bachman, would you like to speak to that? Sure, I have other things to say with maybe at this moment. Yeah, it is in process. The DEI director has a schedule and a plan for implementation. I think we could look at expediting that through including an outside consultant who would come in to make that move faster. That would be one consideration that she and I had talked about. But again, so we don't need to revisit whether we want this, this is going, this is happening. Yeah, that's up to the council. If it would like to reiterate and reinforce that this is an important thing, that you would like to see a recommendation by date certain. My concern was that it not be revisited and not happen. So I just wanted it clarity that this is happening and it's already been a council recommendation or goal. Okay, the next motion was submitted by Shalini and Kathy Shane and Kathy Shane and Kathy Shane. So there are two parts to the motion that Kathy Shane and I are proposing. The first part speaks to the urgency we've all been hearing about accountability and a process that's needed immediately urgently to deal with complaints against the police in general. So with respect to that goal, one of the key responsibilities that Mr. Backelman just shared with us is that Ms. Nolan, who is the new DEI director, she's a black woman who's shown that she's very competent and compassionate attorney and is a very capable leader of our new DEI department. One of her first responsibilities was and is to create the resident oversight board. So I hope that we can all support Ms. Nolan in successfully reaching that goal in a timely manner. And it is my understanding that the creation of a resident oversight board for the reasons that Mandy just shared is like, who's gonna be in it? How do we create it? And so it is a highly complex and specialized job which is why we are recommending that we signal our support to Ms. Nolan by directing the town manager to hire a consultant if necessary, which we think, I mean, if necessary, but to work with the DEI department in the creation of the resident oversight board. So that's the first part of the motion to direct the town manager to hire a consultant to collaborate with the DEI department. And the second part of our motion deals, I mean, it's flipped, I think I spoke to the first, second first, but the second part of our motion is to deal with the July 5th incident specifically. And what we're proposing is that, for example, when I go as a consultant in an organization, I like to understand the culture and like to understand the specific challenges they're facing. And so similarly, the consultant that we are hiring could use this July 5th incident as a case to review, to look at all the information and to use that to inform not only the creation of the resident oversight board, but also to use that to review and propose potential procedural changes in the operation of the police department. So, Kathy, do you wanna add to that? Shalini explained it well, I just wanna add some thoughts because we actually tried to write it with very few words. So the first part of reviewing information, I think we mean a thorough review of it and it's to learn from the July 5th incident, including we might wanna approach 911 calls about noise with use differently with high school age use and think about what the follow-up is and how we speak with people. So we didn't write all of that in, but it was really to come back with how can we prevent this from happening again? And that was one of my concerns with the original proposal that was on the table is it was just one incident focused. I think we need to be creative and move on. We have a Cress and a DEI just beginning, as I mentioned in my early remarks, we can build on them. I think there's a potential for Cress to be part of a team. Once we know what the workload is, on when they're responding, they're not ready now, but we're staffed in a way that six months, eight months from now, they could be part of a team responding on weekends and we could have that be part of the recommendation. And I agree we have assumed there will be a resident oversight board or re-recommendation, but I don't actually remember voting on it. So I wanted to make sure we had a motion to make sure we had a motion to make this happen. And Paul just suggested that we give a date certain, at least on when each of these can happen, when each of these would occur. We're putting in place some very powerful tools to use and we've got very competent people including this amazing new workforce. And I think we need to give them all a chance to work and work well together to move forward. Thank you. If we go to motion six. So in my conversations with the town attorney, she volunteered to draft a motion. That's the motion you see here. However, I'm going to ask Athena to put up the motion that I sent you earlier this evening or to actually, yes, late this afternoon, which is a modification of this. And there we go. And it's the same opening, but it gets into more detail, particularly scroll down through the numbers and includes various things related to the demands that were made by the CSSJC. But this would be to refer this to the town manager who would work with the DI department and other staff and draw upon the ongoing work of the CSSJC, the Human Rights Commission and the HRA. It looks like a long list, but it was a list of demands. So I just want to take an opportunity to speak a little bit about this. Several counselors today have recognized the many strides we've already made. And we don't have to list them again. I remember reading the CSWG reports, both report A and B. I remember making a matrix, bringing it to the council. I remember drafting a response to the seven demands of the CSSJC. So if there's times that I feel maybe sound a little frustrated, it's because I keep trying to move something forward. And I get very concerned when the council has continually been asked to be the judge and the jury when we don't have any of those powers. And so when it comes to saying, yes, there was wrong, we can agree there was wrong. We can agree there was harm. But we don't have the specifics and we have no basis to award. Any compensation based on that. And so that is one of my biggest concerns about continually investigating the incident within the bodies of the town. So let me further say, I also find myself regularly worrying about how much we've taken on and about the missteps that we may still take. And I worry about the fact that nationally and locally our police departments are constantly either being condemned because they didn't show up like they didn't show up in VELDA and people lost their lives or they did show up in St. Louis. Unfortunately, not as many lives were lost. I worry when people say we don't want the police to show up that the time that they need to show up and be there to protect the lives of children and citizens that they aren't welcome. Our police department is considered one of the best in Massachusetts. That doesn't mean they're always right. Ambrose is considered one of the best towns in Massachusetts. It doesn't mean we're always right. And what people have put forth is different ways to help all of us look at this, not in a way that condemns but in a way that allows us to move forward. And I really hope before we dismiss tonight that we do this because we have put it off way too long. That matrix was over a year ago. So I wouldn't just need to say we have to keep our sense of perspective. We also have to understand what's truly doable with regard to our finances. The council has to either decide it is or is not an adjudicatory body. We are not, our legal council is very clear about that. We also have to decide if we are going to seek a victim's compensation fund. And if we are, what does it look like? And it's going to have to go through the legislature. But meantime, if we keep having discussions like we've been having where we keep calling people out, instead of calling people in, we're just going to make more harm in the artist. And I'm looking for a way to move forward. I'm willing to go with whichever way the council comes up with tonight, but please, please make it a way to move forward. That's all I have to say. Donna, did you want to say anything? I just have a request to Athena if she could, since now it's been posted up on the screen, if she could email Lynn's alternate version to us so that we can see it on our own screens, that would be very helpful. That would be excellent, thank you. Athena, it also, when she emails it to you, is an option one and an option two. And the option two is greatly pared down. And I at one point worked to try to take away the opening language, because I don't want to get into the debate of the words, but I want to deal with a substance gang and I want to deal with it so that we leave this meeting tonight with a path forward so that we're not sitting here a year from now and we've done some great things, but we still are upset and we still feel what's been going on. Thank you. And I do know that I might have another motion. Spoiler alert. So in hearing the rationale behind some of the motions today, one, I want to thank folks for writing them and presenting them, it was really helpful. And I'm not convinced that my thought needs to be a motion necessarily. However, and if it's not, it could be something I do on my own and not as not on behalf of the council. But I think that one of the things that has emerged for me very prominently in this is that clarity of process is so important. And one of the other things that has emerged for me is that we have not addressed each point, point by point of the letter that we received from the CSSJC in our initial draft response, which we never approved, I know, however, we never went through every single point. And that's not to say that we, as a council, are promising that we will deliver on every single point, we would have to vote on that. But I believe that we need to address what process would look like for each of those items. So in considering how to move forward, I got a bit stuck on the original motion that was on the table because in my opinion, CSSJC had already given us a list of items that they believed would move us towards repair and reconciliation, as well as reduce and prevent future harm. I'm a process person. I'm a process nerd. I love thinking about this and figuring out how to work on these systems so that we can clarify how to make change and how to move forward. So I think it's critical that we, as a council, respond with a clear process and support our committees in clarifying what it would take to move forward each item that they've listed in their letters. So I looked back at a note I had sent to Lynn a while ago where I had tried to look at each item on the original list and identify what the path forward would be. And then Lynn provided a different draft response because we weren't working on it together because we weren't in subcommittee, but I had sent her my thoughts. She wrote her draft response to the council in early October. What my motion would do, it would allow, can I read it? Am I allowed to read it without making it? Okay, so it would task the town council vice president to identify the appropriate first steps in a process needed to move forward on each of the seven demands from the community safety and social justice committee letter dated July 29th, 2022, determining whether each item requires direct council action, directs the town manager, or directs the town manager and town staff with reporting back deadlines. So the motion means I would look at each item and determine whether it, not by basis of opinion, but by basis of whether it's legislative, executive, et cetera, whether it's the responsibility of the town council or the town manager. I originally thought of also drafting motions for each item on that list to say this would be the first step in each item. However, I believe that the motion crafting for each of those items should be the prerogative of a counselor who would choose to bring forward a motion on that item to the council, because that's how we get things done, right? We make motions on actions that we wanna see taken. We are a legislative body. We as individual counselors can make motions to enact policy. By a vote of the council, we can task the town manager with something that falls under the executive body, executive branch or something we want the town manager and staff to address and bring to the council for a recommendation. It's not all we do, but those are the options that I believe apply to this list. The idea here is that I'd take the original list from CSSJC and for each item. I know I'm getting repetitive, but I wanna make sure it's clear. The idea here is I'd take that original list from CSSJC and for each item, determine whether it would be action from the executive branch, Paul's area and require a vote of the council to task the town manager with action. Whether that's already been done, because if that has been done great, we can step to that. And or whether it would take action from the legislative branch and require a vote of the council on a specific action step that's policy-based. So in making this motion, I wanna be clear. In order to take action on each individual demand listed in the letter, future individual motions would have to be made by counselors who are seeking to carry forward said item from the list. I think it's important that we respond to each point of that letter and clarify what it would take to move it forward. I'm tasking this to myself solely because I started doing this work and I am happy to accept suggestions from other counselors. We cannot have two or more counselors doing this without it being an open meeting or a subcommittee. So what I then am seeing is that there are motions that are addressing many of the points and taking action on many of the points in the letter, which is amazing. And there are some things we have not talked about. And I think it's important that we identify for our committees and for ourselves, hey, if we want to take action on items two and three, I don't know what they are, I'm just referencing random numbers. It would mean a counselor would need to craft a motion to ask the town manager to prioritize it. Or it would mean a counselor would need to draft legislation for this. We don't have a lack of clarity. And I believe, Mandy, this might have been what you were referring to earlier when you said you weren't clear on what was being asked to the council. We have not clarified which is legislative action for ourselves, which is legislative action, which is executive action. And then we have not taken ownership of our responsibility as counselors to then say, I'm picking up the banner on this and I'm gonna carry it forward and write that motion and put it on the agenda. Cause that's the next step, right? Once we know where it needs to go eventually, one of us has to pick it up and say, I'm bringing this to the council, I'm putting it on the agenda. We're going to discuss the motion that I have written to move this along. So I'm not necessarily convinced this needs to be a motion. I'm happy to just do this. But I think we need to really consider that we have not addressed every single point in that letter and clarified what it would mean to move forward. Before we move to any questions, I'd like to pause for a moment and say, I have also just forwarded the motion that was sent to the council that was up on the screen that I made to the members of the CSSJC. And I'm asking Athena to post that as well so that it is available to the public. Now I'm going to ask Anna, would you like me to email to the town council and to the members of CSSJC the motion you just made and would you like it posted? I'd like to hear from Alicia first if that's okay. Okay, Alicia. Thank you. And I have a little bit to say. So if you all could just bear with me while I make the connection, it will take a couple of seconds because I again want to just bring forward some of my emotions and my frustration with this entire process. And like some of my frustration comes from like, I understand we're trying to find a path forward and I'm very happy about that. But we have been in this position before. And so some of the remarks that like, we don't know what specific policies can be changed and we need more information on these things is false because we had, we worked with LEAP. They investigated all of the police policies. We have an entire report with specific policies that can be changed. We have made these recommendations over a year ago with the help of professionals, not just random people on a body. Seasoned, knowledgeable community members who are also professionals. Like this was not just willingly thrown together. We have concrete recommendations to the council that were made well over a year ago in terms of the police policy, in terms of the resident oversight board, what the charge could be, what the composition of the members could be. All of these things are already concrete recommendations with consultation of professionals with a year work of research from this specific community to back it. We don't need more research. We just don't. And that is the frustration. And so the piece that is really stuck for me, why I like, I do like Michelle's motion because I do also agree that it's important to have consensus. It's important for all of these things to also happen. But what Anna said, I think is like so critically important because everything that can't happen, our reason is, well, the policy, the procedure, the this, it's written this way. And so when we're talking about what is in our purview as counselors and like what we have authority to do, it's strange to me that we are sitting here acting like we don't have as much power as we do because we can make a recommendation as to anything that we cannot do ourselves. We have done it before in terms of like requesting funding for the library. Like it is in our purview to actually obtain that funding from the state, but we are recommending people and we are putting our voices where we think our priorities are and what is important to us and we can do that again. We can do that for any situation. We can instruct the town manager to do anything that we think is important that is not in our purview but is in his. We can also write recommendations to the finance committee. We do all of these things all of the time for other issues. There are a lot of things we can do. And one of the things that I think we really should do and can do, which would be really important is identify specific policies and procedures, which is why I love what Anna is saying in terms of going through each specific point and laying out what the policy and procedure is. We can identify which policies and procedures are preventing us from moving forward and we can change them. That is in our purview as a council. We made all of these policies. There were people on committees that made all of these policies, all of these policies that are here that are preventing us from doing things can be changed and we can be a part of that process. And so I think that Anna's specific recommendation is like a perfect starting place for that to go through each thing that we want to see happen or that might be possible and to look at what policies would allow us to do these things and what policies are preventing us from doing these things and what does the actual process look like? What processes are working for us as a town in making change and what processes are preventing us from moving forward because we can change those things. And so while I really support actually like a combination of things that have been suggested tonight, the conversation is still slightly frustrating. I did send this on to council members and to the members of CSSJC because I... Yeah, that's fine. It makes sense. It puts it out there. Yep. Pam. Thanks to everybody that has put the work into this. I'm feeling like it's actually, we're really at the moment talking about two different things. And I appreciate the work that Anna's talking about, breaking it apart, moving it forward. I think that's excellent. I think I would like to vote on, sorry. I would like to vote on a motion that deals specifically with the July 5 incident and get that rolling. And I strongly support motion number one amendment in order to get that going. But I would also say, okay, so then step two for the council is to say, thank you very much, Anna. Would you come back with a report and a breakdown of your items in two weeks or whatever? Let's break it apart. Let's move on both these actions but not get bogged down in having to do all the analysis from the CSWG report now. Does that make sense? We're not making, we're not moving at this point. In fact, I'll take more comments and then we can decide whether we want to have motions and or go to public comment and then come back. Kathy Shane. I will make what is probably not gonna be a popular comment but I think one of the reasons we didn't deal with the whole matrix is there were some elements on it that I didn't necessarily think I would support that we need to have a longer discussion on them. So it wasn't just how would we do this but do we want to do this and would it make sense to do this? And Elisha, I do totally respect the amount of time and effort that was put on your committee but I also think there are experts and then there are experts. These are complicated issues that can't, most of them take time. So just as we brought on a Cress workforce, we know conceptually what we hope they're gonna be able to do. It's not day one and they're working out something that's gonna be creative, new, different and will be a model. I hope for a very positive model if we let it play out. So in my past life, I had to deal with competing experts regularly and just sit down and have the time on complicated issues to figure out, do we wanna do it or not? And I'll just end there because we do have finite resources in the town. People may not believe it but when we look at our budgets, they're finite. And right now I am in a panic about trying to refocus on getting an elementary school built for our kids. We're over half the kids are minority and we have a high number of low income kids. And so I think we need to say we're also dealing with competition for scarce resources and just acknowledge that. So I just wanna say, Lynn, it wasn't that we didn't focus on the whole matrix but there were elements of the matrix we never got to because it wasn't like a, this is number one. We never even talked about it. And that is why I think Shelley and I focused more narrowly on two things we wanna do. And I don't wanna spend a lot of committee time on just one incident. I wanna talk about it broadly. So maybe we're talking about merging some of these emotions because I don't think we just wanna go back over the July 5th, get all the facts right and talk just about that. We wanna talk about the protocols, ways of preventing it from happening again or if it happens again, knowing how to deal with it better than a four month process. So I'll stop there. Sean, we're gonna need to use the clock, okay? Thank you. Andy? Yeah, a lot of what Kathy said is what I was thinking too. I really appreciate what the community safety working group recommendations were. They were quite extensive. I understand that there's overlap and change in the current list that we have from CSSWJ because it's reacting to a specific incident and so that it's focusing a little bit in that direction. But in the end, the point that Kathy made was the point that I was gonna make is that we don't have infinite resources. We have very limited resources. We have accomplished a lot, but it is very costly and we are really needing to make sure that we're focused on continuing the efforts, the success of the efforts that we've already made for we jump into large, expensive new efforts. And I think that the last thing I would point out there is the word expensive is not just the operating costs of setting up whatever it is or the capital costs needed to set it up, but it's also the incredible amount of staff time and resources that it's gonna take just to explore each of these items and to find out what is necessary to move forward. So I have a lot of hesitation because I think it's important for us to spend some time as a council thinking about the question of priorities and not try and go into an episode where we're trying to do everything and therefore find we can do nothing. Alicia? Thank you, Lynn. I forgot to add at the end of my last statement if that does not become a motion that I would be happy to work on that with you, Anna because I think that is a critical next step and it would be important for my learning process because I really wanna know those things. So I'd be happy to work on that with you. It would be like a learning curve for me, but I will do that if it doesn't become a motion. Also, like I am proud of the steps that we are taking as a town because I also did put a lot of work into the Crest program and the DEI director and I'm happy, so, so happy to see those things being carried out. But the framing of the conversation is almost as if we think that the creation of these things is gonna eradicate all of the racism and discrimination in this town. It absolutely will not at all and it won't merely even start to begin to touch the harm that has already happened. And I think that is a big piece that is missing from this conversation. These are great big steps, like they are and we should be proud of these things as a town. It's not going to end what is happening here. It's not going to end the experiences of people. It's not going to end the injustice. It's not going to end the policies that allow racism to continue to occur in this town. It's not going to end the trauma that people have already experienced. It's not going to do any of those things. And so I think like, yes, we need to celebrate those things and be happy about those things, but we still need to do more things. And like, I'm sorry, but we don't wanna hear about how expensive it is. Priorities are also a matter of perspective. And again, we are missing perspective, the perspective of the people who this is happening to. Priorities are a matter of perspective. We all have different priorities because we all have different perspectives. And again, the council, that's why it needs to be more diverse because we're missing a lot of perspective. And so our priorities don't necessarily align with the priorities of the actual people in this town. And that's what makes this conversation so, so, so difficult. And so I think like, yeah, we do need to have more conversations about this clearly. I understand that there's not like one thing we can do tonight that's going to solve everything. I think establishing a committee that can focus on this more clearly because it deserves that level and detail of attention that as a council, we just cannot do because we have so many other things on our plate. But I don't like, I just always have trouble with the framing of the conversation as if it's not urgently critical to the daily lives and wellbeing of a lot of people. Mandy Jones. I support a lot of what Kathy and Andy said. And I just wanna recognize for Alicia that you're right. We all come here with different perspectives on what our priorities are. And that's what makes conversations around budgeting really difficult because it is a zero sum game in some sense. There's a limited pot of money and elevating one priority generally necessarily diselevates not the right word, but reduces another priority or the funding you can spend on another priority. And so that's what makes budgeting so hard. And I wanna go back to the first motion that was discussed because I think a couple of counselors have said they might support that one. I still struggle with that one partially because of the committee creation but also partially because if we as a council have an idea of what needs done, i.e. something like we need to get the resident oversight committee going or we need to review the policies and the protocols that are used in response procedures used by the police department. If we as a council know that that's some of the things we wanna do, I'm not sure we need a committee to come back and tell us that's what we should do. I feel like we should just tell the manager to do that. And that's why I struggle with sort of the creation of a committee too. It's described here as to quote, develop a proposal for repair and reconciliation with a focus on the incident. But if we've already sort of potentially reached a consensus on what at least some of that repair and reconciliation would be, why wouldn't we just direct the manager to execute that? As CEO. So I guess that's why I'm hesitant. That's why I favor the motions that just go directly towards asking the manager to do something which would be sort of the latter half motions instead of the first motions. Michelle. I'm just gonna respond to Mandy on that. I agree that if we have concrete steps that we're all willing to take, we could have a much more direct approach. My concern is that those committees need to be guiding the process and they need to be involved in the process. So for example, if we say that we're gonna establish a board or whatever these specific goals that we're talking about tonight, if we're ready to move forward on them and ask the town manager to do so, they need to be guided by these committees in my opinion, at least the CSSJC needs to be guiding that work. And I think that the concern is that the town manager would take it and this isn't default to you necessarily, Paul, but just that it wouldn't happen in consultation, in the public light of day, it would be happening and being developed outside of that and then be brought back to us. So I wanted to address that. I also wanted to address something that Kathy said, which just to clarify that my motion does take it further and does ask for a recommendation on how to handle future incidents that could occur like this. And then lastly, I wanna address my concerns with what Anna has proposed while I really appreciate what Anna is proposing. My concern is that letter was sent to us by the CSSJC in July and that metric was developed a year and a half ago and it hasn't really moved anywhere. And my concern is that we can go through and we can determine what process for each of these items, but if this council isn't ready to have a discussion about freezing police or whatever, all of the other items on there that coming back with a process for how to do these things and whether or not we can do them to me could create unnecessary stall and I feel that we need to be much more progressive than that. So that's what I have right now. Anna? Sure, so if there are no counselors who are willing to champion freezing police positions, it won't matter whether it comes from a new committee or it comes from the current committee. Counselors would need to propose that as a motion and bring it forward and champion it. That doesn't shift regardless of how we move forward with this, right? That's why I believe we need to pinpoint the specific actions we need to take because we are the ones who are responsible for moving things forward. And so, I'm struggling with the idea of doing work a third time that's been done. Like these answers have been provided to us twice now through the community safety working group and then again from the CSSJC. So it's on us to say, okay, this is the path forward and to address Kathy's comment to be again, very clear. Every single one of these would have to be picked up by a counselor or multiple counselors turned into a motion and an action and then pass the council. This is not saying that the slate of these can come forward. I'm not able to bring every single one of these to the table right now and get it passed, right? I think that what I am able to do is say, if a counselor on this council would like to move forward on the issue of a victim's compensation fund. The first step would be to think about what legislation would look like. That's a policy action. If you would like to increase the hours that Cress is working, that's a town manager decision. You're going to need to write a motion that prioritizes that. Those motions need to pass council. That doesn't change regardless of what committee is making recommendations. So I think for me, you're right. The letter was sent to us in July. The incident happened in July and we haven't moved yet. I don't want to push it out further and get new recommendations because it's not an if this happens again, it's a when. And so we can't just keep waiting for the next thing to happen to write new recommendations every time. We have to start acting on something. So that's where I'm feeling an echo of Alicia's frustration because I was an observer to that work and she was very much in it. But I think that this is where we've being handed the answers and saying we got to go back to study is frustrating. And so I think that there's still studying to be done and there's action to be taken. And so I'm trying to illuminate what those paths would be so that my fellow counselors and myself can pick up the ones that we are ready to walk down and say, here's the action, let's go. That's the intent behind my motion. I'm gonna move on to Anika. All right, thank you. So I wanna thank everyone who spoke and who's with us today. And I'm recognizing that we have 74 participants and I'm also looking at the screen and we have the CSSJC represented here, majority of people of color. We know the makeup of the AHA. I'm not sure of the makeup of the HRC. We see us in council. And so I do want to acknowledge something Alicia said is we need more diversity. None of us here, none of us here, all of the people of color that you see though doing our best, we do not. No matter what anyone has said, we are not speakers of the whole. We do not speak for the BIPOC community as a whole. Ms. Pat speaks for the youth as the issue has been appointed to, but in general, we do not speak for the whole town of Amherst, none of us, not one of us do. And I think that it puts a lot of weight and pressure and it just doesn't make sense to look at us that way. And I think also with some of the groups appointed, we can't always just be appointed because we are people of color. And I understand that right now there are so few of us. And I hope that we continue to do the work that brings people in because we do not represent all voices. I do appreciate Anna in your, what you're saying does allow, I think for more immediate change and understanding, a lot of the urgency that's been asked and has been asked, I mean, a lot of it is going to continue to go in circles because there are legislative issues and that's just what it will do. We already know the establishment of the police and the history in America and it's okay to say that. And it's okay to demand that that's looked at and implement what changes can be made. But we're sitting here often just really going around in circles. If we're not able to kind of move along the path that Anna is suggesting being able to look at things and say, well, what could we do now? And if we can't do this, what would need to be changed in order to do so? And my other concern is just something, anything that really just moves Pamela and the DEI department from the center. I think that we should all acknowledge that we do have a gem of resource. And Pamela, I'm not speaking for her, but I imagine took a position to bring what she brings, her expertise and her talent. And some of these motions seem like she would be put into a position where she would be taking directive and being assistant maybe so to some of these committees. And I think that, you know, we also need to find a way where we allow the DEI department to be able to spread their wings and do what they need to do. Or we did not need to bring in someone with Pamela's credentials. So, you know, this is just where I do appreciate the motions that are, you know, centered around doing that with the DEI department and also being able to move forward with attainable action. So we are not just having the same conversation, the same insults, we can see it coming. It is the same thing over and over again. And I know that we all mean well, but you can, you know, see it. It's really like we've heard even with the comments coming from the community, thank you so much. But we're hearing this is all overlapping and becoming very repetitive at this point. And I don't know that there's any, you know, win-win solution. I don't know if there's anything that's perfect, but at least something that moves us to attainable action or at least understanding what we can and cannot do. And if the results are not, if you don't like the results, let's head to the state house. If you don't like the results, then sue because how else do we move forward? Thank you. I want to just remind counselors to please stick to three minutes if possible, Dorothy. I would like to speak to what I see is continued obfuscation and the disease of the bureaucrat of process, process, process. Of course, it matters what we do and how we do it. But what underneath it all, what I see is a great reluctance to share the power. We spent a year setting up committees to try to get a more representative input. We have the committees, they have worked hard, they're interesting. I mean, I never quite know exactly what they're gonna say. I think they bring tremendous wealth to this town. So I say, let them do the job. I support the motion one. These committees are not just window dressing to make us look virtuous. They're very busy people. They have jobs to do and they're taking their time to do this work. I think we should follow Michelle's amended motion one and let the committees do the work. And again, I said, I like the representation of the police department and it says very clearly that the town manager and DEI will be involved as they see appropriate. So I think it's a great way to go. And otherwise, if this town council wants to do anything or get accomplished some of the goals that we have set out which have to deal with other aspects of life in this town, we should let these committees which we have created do the job and come back to us and then we have it right then to vote or recommend or pass on or do whatever we wanna do. Thank you. I'm gonna check comments from two more counselors then I'm gonna open it up for public comment so that we can then go to motions. Alicia. Thank you, Lynn. I actually had two questions and one of them was going to be if we could have public comment before we vote on the motions. So that's great. The second question was, can a like committee representative or a person or persons who are on a committee serve as a community sponsor? For example, a counselor who wants to write a motion or propose something. A person or persons on a committee that is not the council have every right to approach a counselor and propose working on them on motions. Is that what your, did that answer your question? Yes, but it would have to be like a person and not a committee is what like I was trying to encompass like could a committee be that or would it have to be a person from a committee or? It's a slippery slope, okay? And we've seen it a couple of times, for example, a couple of counselors and residents started talking about rental registration. And finally, it was time to bring it into a council committee, okay? So there's a point at which we've often had people talk to counselors and say, I'd like to support this bylaw or a general bylaw or I'd like to support the zoning bylaw. And then those counselors have counselor or counselors have gone with that. So yes, it can be done. When it starts getting to be, you know, three people from this committee and two counselors, then we start getting into the slippery slope. Does that help? Lynn, if I may. Yes, please. Sight the rules. So our rule eight of procedure, Felicia talks about how you introduce bylaws and other measures. And in that rule, if you're proposing a general bylaw, we have said that they can be initiated and introduced by submission to the council in one of the following manners by a counselor sponsor. So any one of the 13 of us by the town manager or their designee, by the town committee, by a town committee or by a group petition or initiative, which is through the charter section 8.2 and 3 and 5. So if a town committee wanted to propose a bylaw to the council, they could do so. They would have to create that bylaw in open meeting though through their committee process. Zoning bylaws have a little bit more where they can come from through state law, but a general bylaw can come from a town committee. I hope that answers and explains it a little more. Yes, thank you. Great. And was there anything else, Alicia? No, that was it, thank you. Okay, Shalini, last comment and then we're going to public comment. Yeah, I just wanted to echo what Anna said that the CSSJC and the CSWG before has already proposed a path forward, which is to deal with complaints about policing and that is to create, and that is the DEI director doing that. So the first motion says they're gonna create a process for handling future similar actions. It feels like we're going backwards. We already know the path forward is the creation of the resident oversight board. So I think we should just get to that. And as Anika's mentioned, we have a fabulous black woman leading our department. We have to empower her, we have to support her, we have to believe in her and we have to give her all the resources she needs if it's a consultant or whatever to start working on the resident's oversight board. And let's start that right now. So I really support that motion. Thank you. All right, we're going to move to public comment. I'm going to start first with the members of the CSSJC who have sat here so patiently and ask if there are members of CSSJC who would like to make public comment at this time. Allegra. I have a few things. And I kind of see there being a need for a both and in this situation, I feel like we can both address directly the July 5th incident by approving motion one and perhaps through some combination of four through six, the majority of the CSSJC's other demands would get met. And I just want to say that we know that council can make a motion to freeze police positions because they've done so in the past and approved it at the beginning of this conversation in 2020. So if somebody would like to do that in this upcoming budget season, it's upon us. But I just wanted to speak, I guess I had a clarifying question because I'm looking at the motion six as Lynn amended it, which I do appreciate the inclusion of the ongoing work of HRC CSSJC and the reparations committee. I do think that that's important because we are doing this work, we've been doing this work and we would like to be active in these discussions in town. So I guess I'm wondering what, like if motion six is to refer all of these things to the town manager to kind of figure out how they might work, if I'm understanding that correctly versus Anna's motion to think about who each item would get referred to, I'm just confused because I feel like motion six kind of does what would need to be done maybe. And so I'm just wondering if I'm missing something. And I do think that I wanted to mention that there is a DEI director report from July 14th of this year that outlines the process that she's laid out for establishing the resident oversight board. So I don't think that the motion that specifically speaks to only establishing a resident oversight board is needed at this time because I think that's already underway. And I just think that four and five don't speak directly to any repair to the youth directly impacted by this incident. Again, some of the things might prevent impacts in future incidents, but that still leaves unfinished the business of July 5th. So I think as me, not as a representative of everything that committee might agree with, I think one in six could coexist, both specifically for the incident that occurred and again, at looking at the bigger picture of policing in Amherst. Anna, I really wanna leave this for public comment and then come back, okay? All right. I was hoping to clarify, I'd like to later. Thank you. Pat. So I appreciate all the talk that the counselors who had made motions, thank you. However, motion four and five, I feel it's inaction. It's almost like spinning the wheel. This should have happened a long time ago. I like Councilor Michel's motion. I worry that the timeframe is too far away, February. I think it's important that BIPOC people are on the same table with decision makers in this town. So I think for public perception, it's very critical that Amherst resident feel that the process will be transparent, that people know what is going on. And I also feel that involving town manager with a proposal from Councilor Michel makes a lot of sense. Let's face it, we understand that the town council is legislative branch and the town manager actually is administrator that actually make decisions. So I'm kind of leaning towards that. My only struggle with the one that Councilor Lane put in is no mention of compensation fund. And I think repair will not happen if we don't address that. I feel that we should try to divide the issues like the July 5th incident need to be addressed immediately. And I get the long-term also should also be addressed. But for the immediate where we're meeting should take priority in order for us to heal. But that's what I'm leaning towards. I just want to make sure that the voices of the youth are centered when whatever the town council innovate on that we have BIPOC folks trying to represent what the voices of the youth and their families be included in all the process. Thank you. Thanks, Pat. Dee? So I'm just going to agree with a combination of one and six. I think we need to attend to the short term as indicated by some of the counselors and then attend to the long-term issues having to do with police policies and practices. Resident oversight board, when we envisioned it we were looking at various models. It's important that our, as everyone has noted our very bright and capable DEI director. It's a process in many towns where there is an executive committee set up small to help make those decisions with the DEI director kind of as the executive director but a committee set up to then build a resident oversight board or in some communities a commission on police practices which does very similar work. So I just think there's nothing within here that takes up how the resident oversight board is to be built and created. So that would have been helpful further down the line. But for right now looking at these motions I think the revised number one with a combination of six, I could see that working. Thank you. Thanks, Dee. Deborah, are you home safely? Yep, I'm available, I'm home now. So, of course I was driving this whole time so I wasn't able to write down anything in terms of the motion. So I'm not sure which one is which and all those things. So what I'm gonna speak to is just what I feel would be most effective. I do like one. However, I still have some questions about one which is, okay, you're getting all of our committees together to come up with recommendations but what does that mean, right? So are those recommendations gonna be put in place by the town council or is it gonna be again the runaround of we bring these recommendations and then maybe they're gonna be put in place maybe they're not gonna be put in place which is gonna waste time for the July 5th violations and the remedies that we want for our young people and the families and obviously for the healing. So I think even with one, even though I like it there needs to be some type of, okay, what is happening here, you know what I'm saying? What does that mean, right? Cause if not, we're just spinning our wheel. And so then, and then I like what Anna had brought up and Alicia had talked about it too almost kind of combining that into one if that gap was addressed in terms of what these recommendations mean which is to say, yeah, we already had a list, right? So why couldn't we have this group, right? Working with, cause right? Other councils are gonna be part of this group and we'd be working with the town council I mean, yeah, with the town manager and the DEI folks so the smaller group kind of working with everyone. Why can't we have this group kind of look at the list of demands that we have and really kind of figure it out, right? Why can't we respond to each, right? So combining the two, because I think that it's just gonna waste more time and we don't have more time. The town has spoken like this happened in July. Why are we now going to be going into God knows what another six months to address these issues? We have the list that CSSBC brought up and we have committees and folks that could work on this together. So why can't we just, you know, get this done as opposed to kind of prolonging it. And then in terms of the oversight, that was already, I mean, the DEI director already has a timeline in terms of putting the oversight committee in place. I like maybe providing her with a consultant so it can happen quicker cause I know she said that it would be too much for her to do and it wouldn't be in place until next year. So what we're dealing with in terms of creating this group is the short term but obviously we need the longer term which is the resident oversight. So yes, providing her with a consultant. Yes, but we don't have to go and, you know, oh, should we have a resident? No, we've been there done that. You know, the train has left the station. So the only thing that we could do is add a consultant so that it can get done more quickly. Thanks, Debra. Phillip? Yeah, I'll echo what my fellow CSSJC members said. I like the idea of one and a combination of six and then to kind of piggyback off of what Debra was saying. The motions and counselors focus on the resident oversight. Pamela has said that there's a timeline for it but to Deb's point, it is a timeline with a small staff. And if this town council has given this budget to the DEI department to not expand the staff, to not expand other people, which we have talked about in our CSSJC meetings, then maybe an outside consultant does need to be brought in. So that focus to me, again, kind of goes back to what Andrew was saying or Andy was saying about money and figuring out money and counselor Hanakie as well kind of saying which one does the council kind of put and hold more valuable? Right now we have money going to the library. Right now we have money going to the school. We just got a grant to have money go to the sidewalks. When are we gonna focus on the racial issues of this town and where are we gonna find the money and the time to deal with that? And I'll leave with that. Thank you. I'm going to now go to the audience and I see two hands, Alexis and Ronnie Parker. Are there any other people who would like to make public comment at this time? Make, I see a third or four. All right, let's start. Alexis, please enter the room, state your name and where you live. Hi, sorry, can people hear me? Yes, we can. Okay, great. Hi, I'm Alexis Reed and I live on West Street. I wanna thank counselor Walker for her comments because she spoke directly to my frustrations as a body that made a proclamation to create an anti-racist amorst which the success of that can only be determined by the victims of racism. It's very unsettling, especially as members elected into this position of power when there's confusion about what you can do to take action on your own proclamation. It sounds like headway has been made here tonight though, but like as a member of the AHRA that must rely on your action and votes for anything to actually manifest out of the fund. This sentiment of like what can we do or are we supposed to be a part of this restitution is troubling to say the least, especially from counselors who appear to be very knowledgeable about the charter and its powers. Anti-racism is the active process of identifying and eliminating racism, changing systems, organizational structures, policies and practices in order to redistribute power. And we've been able to identify it in various committees and I'm thankful for the committees and that I've been given an opportunity to fight for my family in this assembly but who is actually doing the anti-racist work here? Only you have the power to implement changing the systems and redistributing power and putting them into actions like counselor Devlin Gauthier said. The conversation on priorities is telling us that we're not really ready to make this commitment. We want to, but we're not ready to do so with the powers that be in Amherst and that's fine but let's be honest about where we are right now with our community if we can't make the financial commitments. Please reflect deeply on what Ms. Ferrara said about who feels safe even calling the police for help. Ms. Sonani Baku spoke from her real and valuable experience. Respectability politics should not be weaponized against the real hurt and anger of our BIPOC community members. How comfortable should someone make you feel in defending their own humanity and experience, especially when being appointed to recommend actions that would affect their lives in Amherst. Various counselors have been able to come to the defense of the police in countless meetings regardless of who that alienates amongst the community and when members of the community speak against them suddenly we need to come together. So I'm really asking you we need to make the choice and to walk the walk together. So thank you for listening. Thank you. Ronnie Parker, please enter the room, state your name and where you live. Hi. Oh my God. I am so sort of horrified really by this conversation. I just don't even know what to say. We're here to talk about some children. Our children who've been humiliated who are suffering trauma and will suffer trauma. You've heard data about it, but you can ask any dark person who has ever found herself in public looking like a poor person. You ask any person they will tell you a story and they will tell you about the length of the trauma. And I can tell you mine, but I'm not going to because I just have so much more to say. In terms of what you actually have to do, I think there's too much bureaucracy, too much budget discussion. It's very clear what you have to do. You have to whoever is in charge has to talk to the police officers through whatever channels to make an apology. We heard that they felt bad. They felt bad because they did something wrong. They would like to correct it. There's no budget required for that, but it seems like there's no personal authority or commitment. There's even question, oh, this happened. Let's let it go. Oh, nothing happened, which is the worst of all because that's what happened to me in my encounter with the police. Nothing happened because I shouldn't have been stopped to begin with, but I can tell you it took me 10 years to go to my local police department to talk about it. So don't deny their trauma, address it. And how do we address it? People say the town manager, this committee, that committee. Well, when you tell the town manager to do something, he doesn't personally do it. He looks at a whole slew of resources that he has and he assigns it to somebody who knows about that. So we have a town committee that knows about this that has expertise in it. It's your committee. It's our committee. It's a committee that the town manager believes consists of experts. So I don't know why it's a question since it hasn't worked out to give them a chance to do their job, to bring their expertise to bear on this issue. So I'm completely with number one, whatever number it was, Michelle Miller's proposal. The only question I would have about it is why are there three town counselors? I personally don't feel that the town counselors get it for the most part. It's not about you. It's not about your accomplishments and all the great things that you did. You're not the victims here. It's these kids. And they're hardly mentioned in this discussion which makes me very upset. And as far as the discussion of the consultant, I actually did recommend a consultant to the DEI director in a conversation with her. I believe, and she knew this person and had worked with her. I believe the consultant is needed for the town council and for the senior town management. You don't need a consultant to tell us about Amherst. You've got the SJCC. You've got people right there, right here. They're part of our system. Let's draw on them. You don't need a budget for them to work. You don't need a new budget line. Let's draw on them. So I think we should, but I believe very strongly from my heart and I hope you're not insulted that the town council and the town, just as well, the town leadership across the board really needs somebody from the outside to help increase awareness about racism in this town. And I don't mean that as a good and evil thing, but that we're all socialized in ways that make it impossible for us to see certain perspectives. And somebody mentioned perspectives. And I think that there's a lack of perspective as far as the other is concerned here. So I guess I've hit the zero mark on my timer. So thank you. Kathleen Trapegan, please enter the room. State your name and where you live. Hi, thanks. My name is Kathleen Trapegan. I live in district two. And thank you everybody for still being in this meeting. First of all. So I think a lot of the things that the two previous commenters said, I absolutely second as a white person, I am also like, what can I say? I will say, I just want to acknowledge the pain and disbelief and anger and incredulous reaction by the people of color tonight that are on the screen and I'm sure on the Zoom. I am so sorry that we have been hearing from people that you have told us and told us and told us that the police do not keep you safe. And you have told us and told us and told us what it is like to live in this town and experience the racism that you do. And I am really disappointed by some of the things that have been brought up by some counselors tonight where it is clear that you just still don't get it. And you are still not believing and you are still unable to put yourself, even try to put yourself in shoes that are not your own. And really white people, we have to do better. We have to do better here. So I heard some things about, oh, all police interactions are terrible for everybody. So how on earth do we decide what to do? I have heard some things about, oh, this police officer is very important to understand the context in which they said that a person has no rights. I've heard many things that have just taken the matter of race right out of any of the motions or even the discussion. We cannot do this. We need to move forward. And first of all, we need to have the police department apologize. How does that happen? That is actually a question. I know you're not gonna react to the comment because of the rules, but somebody has got to have the police department apologize. Can you guys talk about that and figure out how that's going to happen? Please. Any motion has to include accountability, repair, restoration, and it needs to focus on the systemic racism in this town. So let's stop getting caught up in all of these other things that you're bringing up. Counselor Hanakie had a question about why we don't just have the town manager do something and why we would involve the committees that we have, that you all have actually appointed that are mostly the black and brown people. Why Counselor Hanakie is because we need to center the voices of black and brown people in this and white people need to step down. That's why. I really believe you should hear that and understand that by now. That's all I've got. Gwynne Vera, please enter the room and state your name and where you live. Yes, hello. My name is Gwynne Abad. And when I saw that this was being heard in Amherst tonight, I was actually at a meeting and I came in late but I wanted to be here because, well, I wanted to listen to what's being said because I don't live in Amherst but I had a very bizarre encounter with misogyny with the Amherst police. And so when I saw that this was happening tonight I decided to come listen and I'm so glad that I did. And a lot of what I hear tonight is more delay, more, let's do more research. Let's do more of this. And maybe the people that did this were not qualified but I believe that the people that are most qualified are the people that have these experiences. And there's no point. The thing is like, I mean, first and foremost the first thing that just is coming to my mind is the concept of public trust and how critical it is at children's different points and development to have a nice relationship with the authority in the homes that they live in, let alone BIPOC youth. They are the most vulnerable and it's just, I guess it's really hard to understand why this is still lingering since July. I do remember reading about this but what I'm seeing a lot tonight is just the continuing cycle of systemic racism, the use of regulations to perpetuate the abuse of power that people experience and that's exactly why our nation is in the condition that it is right now because there's a serious imbalance of power and everyone who's serving tonight is in a position of public trust. And so, I mean, I can't even compare as a white mother, single mother, I can't even still compare my experience to the things that I've seen in the whitest towns of Massachusetts. And I think that Amherst really needs to lead on this. It's just, it's a deeply embedded history. It's like sometimes not even conscious that these underlying biases in ways of knowing and being and the way that people are read or profiled, it's so embedded. It's so embedded through so many generations of trauma and erasure and the erasing happens with delays and then the changing of guards once again and somebody drops the ball. And so that's what I have to say about this. Thank you for letting me speak. Thank you. Lauren Mills, please enter the room, state your name, where you live. Yes, hi, good evening. You can hear me for a good night. Lauren Mills, Mr. Cai, I have a few points that I'd like to share. I appreciate all the public speakers that just spoke and I appreciate those counselors who do get it when seeing Dorothy Pam, I appreciate you. I had the question in my mind, who forces a forced apology? And like some of the other callers have mentioned and CSJC, one of the requests, and I'm sure from the families as well, is an apology from the police chief and I would also like to know what the process is for that and how that can be accomplished. Also at the listening session of the first AHRA public listening session a counselor mentioned counseling and if that is recommended, who would pay for that counseling? And I think that would be a good start. If that's something that is wanting to be provided, I think it should be pursued for the families. I would also just suggest to town council members to maybe set up a meeting with you starting with the middle school. I have two sons that go to the middle school and maybe your perspectives would be opened more if you talk to the youth of this community of this town and I would just really strongly suggest that you speak and hear what the youth have to say in this town. And just lastly, a council member mentioned who is accountable for a pair and I think for me, the answer is we are all accountable. We're all accountable for the repair. Thank you. Brianna Owen, please send to the room. Hi everyone. I hope everyone listening and those who will re-listen later open the packet from this evening and read Mr. William Stewart's email. It illustrates the corruption that happens within the town and this is just the first time it's in our face and we cannot ignore it. This meeting I've heard counselors say they've answered the trauma endured by the BIPOC community through programs like Cress, the DEI department and the creation of the CSSJC. You have all halfway funded every recommendation the CSWG has put forth. In fact, the CSSJC's mistreatment is a perfect example that nothing about the town council has grown to be more inclusive since the first time these discussions have started. I read Mr. Williams, I read Mr. Williams Stewart's letter over and over and over again before this meeting. Amherst is not equitable, not everyone feels safe here, not everybody feels represented, not everyone feels free to speak. People in this town have been brutalized physically, emotionally and mentally by the police department, by town staff, by community members and by each of the counselors that have tried and continue to try to minimize the trauma experience by underrepresented folks in this community. Denial is not the way to change. Denial is not the way to change. Denial is not the way to change. Thank you. Is Soledad Ortega Bustamante please enter the room? Good evening. Good evening, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Soledad Ortega district five, Amherst. And I just wanted to very briefly, much has been said and thank you to everyone who has made a statement and has been working on these issues nonstop. We've heard that an admission is needed, a reconciliation, repair, reform, accountability and amends. And these are all important concepts that have been mentioned and have been explained in writing and reports submitted already. The one area that may be in here that I haven't seen, you can point me to it if I missed in one of the motions. And what is that is the direct connection to the police contract. So the question is for any aspect of admission, reconciliation, repair, reform, accountability and amends, what is the connection there to changing aspects or clauses in the police contract? Because without a through line to the contract, the incident could be analyzed. It could even hopefully be repaired, amended. You may even see some reform, but to have a sustainable systemic change, there needs to be a connection to the police contract. I have heard members of CSSJC tonight support motion one from Councilwoman Miller. And I know that you are combining it with other motions tonight. And that sounds fantastic. You have already a working and established group of committees, already CSSJC, the HRA. And I understand the references to the progress that were made with the DEI and Cresc offices. But I think it's really important to put that on a timeline. These are very new positions. These are very new programs with extremely large and ambitious portfolios. And to put them in a position of suddenly having to analyze an incident of this nature didn't do them any favors. And as we have heard tonight, there was eyewitness accounts lacking, et cetera. So going forward, given the respect for their position and the charge that you've given them, they would be much better suited to work in collaboration with CSSJC, with the HRA, and with others in a more collaborative manner to get to the bottom of this. The other comment I wanted to make is that in addition to a tie-in to the police contract and clauses in the contract that there has to be a timeline outlined for this that is not waiting for more analysis. So for example, you could say that from July 5th, it shouldn't go beyond December 5th that there is at least a first step that's concrete and public in this that's more acceptable to all parties. Thank you very much. Thank you. Zoe, please enter the room. State your name and where you're from. Hey, everybody. This is Zoe Crafter from District 5. Again, I just wanted to reiterate and uplift something that I heard Councillor Walker say and that I was reflecting upon as well as folks were going through the motions, which is that we already have a review of police department rules and regulations and procedures. I don't know if any of those specifically addressed police department rules, regulations and procedures in relation to incidents with youth, but it is very frustrating again to hear the desire for more research and more review when the first batch of recommendations from extensive research that included outside professional consultants to create haven't been fully taken up. So I just wanted to second that for you, Alicia, that it sounds like other folks are also feeling that in addition to you and I. Meg Gage, please enter the room. State your name and where you live. Hi, everyone. I'm Meg Gage. I live in North Amherst. Can you hear me? We can. Your buds here. Thank you all for this hard work. I really appreciate it. And this is a huge struggle for all of us. I'm gonna not go back to how long in my life I've been dealing with all these things, but I appreciate Amherst, which has been bold. I'm concerned about our ability to focus longer forward in the programs that we've created. Amherst has been bold in creating new programs to tackle in our small way. Centuries of unimaginable cruelty, crimes and suffering. The Crest program and the DEI program are up and running and it's taken a lot of effort. And I just want to be sure that we're focusing on those as well as what we're dealing with right now. We've hired extraordinary leaders in these two programs, Pamela and Earl and Deborah. And we have a strong African American Reparations Assembly which has been supported by the council as well. We urgently need to pull together to assure that these programs advance. And I'm concerned that we're gonna be stuck here and not move forward with some of the things that we've been working on. We need to learn how to deal with harm, which is very real without creating more harm. I'm so late, I'm gonna just be very brief. I really urge all of us to bring our highest collaborative selves to work together to find the best path forward. There's a Smith faculty woman, Loretta Ross, a recent MacArthur Fellowship winner, advises when engaging in disagreements, it's better than calling people out, is to instead call people in. And I'm worried that we're so antagonistic right now that we're not working together to find forward paths. It's so late at night, I'm not gonna say more, but this is really hard work that everybody needs to pay attention to. And I really appreciate everything everyone's doing. And we need to work together. How can we work together rather than antagonistically? It's very hard. Sorry, too late at night to be very articulate. It's almost 11 o'clock. Ah, good night, everybody. I'm not good night, but thank you. Thanks, Meg. Vera Cage, please enter the room. Hi, Vera Cage, Amherst. Hold on, I'm sorry Vera, we have to bring you back in. Or we have to unmute you. What did you do? Hi, can you hear me? Yes, we can. We had a little technical snafu there, Vera, sorry. So in 2010, I, along with my husband and his family and his nephews, friends, we and community members, we launched Justice for Charles. Harold Woolhite was wrongfully convicted of murder and was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. That was in 2010. I quit my job to help my nephew get out of serving in maximum security prison. He was not even 30 years old. I visited Ludlow Jail to visit him for the first time I stepped into the jail cell. I will made a commitment to his grandmother, my late mother-in-law that we would get him out. She was able to see him freed during the second trial. I quit my graduate assistantship job at UMass to work on his case full-time as a volunteer. I will go to the depths of the earth to make sure these nine young people get the justice they are due. Let's talk about due process. Some of these comments irritate me because there is a presumption of guilt already. These kids have not even been tried. These kids are not guilty, but there is a presumption of guilt. But the police, they get a pass. Fairly anyone questions what they assert to be thorough, complete or true. The onus is on these nine youths to present their story. And Mr. Paul Bachman, our town manager has the power to facilitate the most humane path for justice for these nine youth that will be listening, recording and documenting how you all have behaved your comments as will the rest of us. Let's ask Attorney Howard Friedman how he was able to in my own knowledge obtain settlement agreements for his two clients separate cases against the Amherst PD. Let's talk about the police insurance, the deductible that the town of Amherst pays. Let's ask Mr. Town Manager Paul Bachman about those avenues. He holds a lot of answers. He holds a lot of information. And he is eerily quiet, too quiet for my own satisfaction. Please get away from this addiction to want to watch and witness suffering, especially black and brown suffering. You want the gore, you want the pain, you want the blood, you want the torture. That's what you're doing with every minute of this meeting, with every day and every week and every month that these children have not had a resolution to what they are presenting to you to this town. Everyone should be treated with courtesy and respect and with the presumption of innocence. Police didn't do that July 5th. They sat those kids down on a sidewalk and lined them up like they were suspects. And do you know why some of these kids don't want to speak because they know the trajectory, because they are part of a long line of our history, a legacy of this history. Because in a couple of years, in a year, some of these kids will turn adults. And you know what police do to these children when they become adults? They really go after them. That's the reality that these kids experience and know all too well. And that many of you are so disconnected from. I can't believe that some of you will be able to expound on something that you have very little knowledge of and be very comfortable about speaking to things and making advice and suggestions about the things that you know very little about. And you do not respect the people that hold the knowledge like Mrs. Pat Ononabaku. If you want to create all these committees, create all this diversion to avoid the point that you are the town is guilty of farm. And they need you all need to address it. Thank you. Thank you. That concludes public comment. And we are going to go back to the council and I am ready to entertain a motion. I'm sorry. Michelle. Can I clarify something? Yeah. Do we have a motion on the table now? Was Michelle formal withdrawal? Like was that. Thank you. Withdrawal and actual withdrawal so that emotion would be a new one versus a substitute. No, let's do this formally. Michelle, there's a motion on the table. It's been made and seconded. I'm calling on you because it was your motion. Yes. I'd like to withdraw my motion and offer. A new motion, please. And is it. To be read. Again, or I. Let me see if I can. Are you sharing screen Sean or shall I. I need to be given permission. I need to be made co-host to do this. You have the sheet. If you don't, I can, I can't hear you. You need to make me co-host to do that. We, I'm sorry. Athena, who is on Tuesday night says class in Boston. Needed to leave her location so she could make the last train home. And so we're working with a slightly different. Crew. Okay. I, I am, I can now share the motions. Okay. The motion that is on the screen is the motion that was made and seconded on October 17th. And my understanding from Michelle is that has been officially withdrawn. A point of clarification. I believe the seconder has to also agree to that withdrawal. Since the theme is not here to. Thank you. I appreciate all of that. And I believe. Lisa, you were the seconder. Are you willing to withdraw? Yes. Thank you. Okay. We can allow that. Okay. Now, Michelle. Do you want to go to the next motion? Yes, please. Okay. All right. And this is the substitute motion that Michelle spoke to earlier. Michelle, what would you like to say about this? I think that. I've already spoken to it. And I think that the members of the CSS JC. And the public that have spoken. Support this motion. And I hope my fellow. Counselors will also support it. And perhaps in combination with other motions that have been. Recommended tonight. So unless there's some reason that I have to read it line by line, I'm officially making the motion. And I'm looking for a second. Second Walker. Okay. Thank you. Is there any questions that people would like to raise or so forth? Andy. I just need clarification. They asked the second paragraph of the motion. Which is an italics. Isn't that the withdrawn motion? Yes. Andy, originally when I had submitted this with our drafts yesterday by noon. I had submitted it as a draft. To reconsider as opposed to withdrawing the original. So. Lynn and I talked about using that language move to substitute the following motion. But. What I've done here tonight is asked for that original motion to be completely withdrawn. And then to have a new motion, which I've spoken to already. So let me just make sure that I understand that that. The tele-sized paragraph is not part of the substitute motion one. No, not at all. I just needed to bring, take that down for a moment because I needed to. Put the review up so I can track changes. Now I can go back. And I can put it up on the screen. You might have a helpful hand. Hand from Athena who showed up. I'm going to. So you're going to call on people. Anna. Oh, I. What? No. Athena has. Is here. I'm saying. She's back. Like it's magic. Can you see people's hands? I can. I was just going to suggest that we change that, you know, That's agreeable to change rather than to substitute that we just cut that. So it would say to create the ad hoc committee to develop a proposal for repair as presented below and then. Cut up a paragraph in italics. Yeah. I'm happy to call on hands. If that's, that's not what I was suggesting. Athena is here to do. I just noticed she had her hand up. So the motion's been made and seconded. Who's next to speak. Can we just clarify that that's an agreeable amendment. A friendly amendment. I've already drawn a line through it. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. And. And Alicia agrees as well. Oh, yes. Sorry. Thank you, Athena. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's what I was asking for. Michelle has your hand. Oh, no, I'm sorry. I do not have my hand up. I apologize. I'm going to. I'm sorry. Pat. Yeah. Keep it moving. I'm old. I'm slow. I'll keep it moving as fast as I can. I'm looking at your. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The opposition of the committee of the ad hoc committee. And you have one non-voting community liaison member of the APD. I'm very. Interested in why. There would not also be a member of crests. And or DEI as part of the actual committee, even if they're non-voting. And it says later, the APD DEI and crests will participate in relevant discussions as needed. But I think that those are ongoing voices that. Become critical to the kind of exploration this is. Thank you, Pat. Yeah, I really appreciate that. Originally I did have a non-voting member from crests as well as a non-voting member from crests. And then I did have a non-voting member from the Amherst. High school staff. And then I realized that. It may be. Considered potentially too clunky in that way. But I fully support that. And if the staff is available to participate in that manner. I think that would be great. Thank you. May I speak to that? I would just specifically like to see crests. Representative of crests to be added. All right. Kathy, your hand is still up. Would you like to make a comment? Kathy. If you can scroll down to. A set of bullets. Michelle, you said earlier. You are talking about changing, examining protocols, looking to the future. I don't see it in the wording here. So for example. It says harms. And then the next one says research and explored models. For repair. So there's the word repair. Pay. And then there's the word repair. And then there's the word repair. In this that I can see that talks about look at protocols. Follow up. Apology. So we would talk about preventing. Such things in the future. So that's why I called it narrow. I think this is all focused on July 5th. And it assumes reparations. Which might be changing of protocols, but I don't read the repair. I think the answer to that question. And I think that's something that I have been hearing throughout that. There had been a real apology earlier, and we should have a different way of working with youth on noise complaints. So I just don't see it here. And if that is the way you want it to read. I. I still think this is quite narrow. And focusing on one incident. Michelle, would you like to respond? I would. Thank you, Anna. Yeah. So I think. I think that's a good point. So I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think we need to think about the policy and compensatory options. So in my mind, that means procedural. How have we, how do we manage when these incidents arise? And we've all acknowledged that they will arise again. Policy. What sort of policy changes need to take place. To repair. This incident and future incidents in my mind. I think that includes concrete process for handling future similar incidents. So I do not think this is narrow only to the July 5th incident. I think it uses the incident. As a focal point to then also recommend to the council concrete process for handling future similar incidents. I'm going to call on Paul and then come back Paul. So I want to delve a little bit more into what expectations you have for staff. As you know, we have very talented leaders at the. Crest department, a DEI department. I do want to say that Scott Livingstone is one of the strongest and best police chiefs that I have ever seen in the state of Massachusetts. He has also been very progressive in how he has approached things. The, I can tell you the DEI director has three other committees that she is managing. She has a lot of other things on her plate. We are working together to figure out her workload and to ensure that she is can be successful in her job with what she's supposed to do for the town. Crest is in the middle of developing a really robust program. You know, Earl, as you know, is here six days, seven days a week. We're forcing these people to not come to work some days so they can maintain their ability to complete the tasks with which they've been assigned. My time is the last six. I'm happy for you to put me anywhere. But in terms of my staff, in terms of the DEI director, I can tell you she believes that she has concluded her reports on the July 5th incident. Doesn't think that she can contribute much more to that particular incident. She's happy to support, but I just want to make sure it clear that we can provide administrative support for sure to another major committee, which has a very large charge. I mean, these are looking at really big things over a very tight timeline. So just to, I want to be very clear with the council that in terms of staff support will give you as much administrative support as you need. But in terms of the professional staff, I would caution how much time they will be able to devote to this. That's what I'm trying to be realistic because we are having these conversations on a daily basis about job sustainability and people being able to continue in their jobs with the workload that we're putting on them. Mandy. I'm going to change a little bit of my thoughts. Her comments. Paul, thank you for that. Has. Reviews come out next week from counselors. I am, you know, as what Paul stated, I'm very concerned about what we ask of our staff and how much we ask. We ask a lot. And we don't ever add much stuff. And, you know, that goes to this motion in terms of the town manager, APD, DEI crest director to participate in relevant discussions as needed. Anika indicated that the thought might be that they're needed for all of the discussions. But do they have the time? I don't know. I can't answer that. I can't answer that. I can't answer that. I can't answer that. I can't listen to our town manager to say they're already stretched really thin. By a lot of what we've asked them to do already. I worry that this charge. Asks the committee to reinvestigate. It doesn't use those words. It says established consensus on the factual record. Of what transpired and established consensus on the factual record. And it doesn't talk about. What the committee will use to establish that consensus. I, you know. Are they going to use the DEI report and addendum, the police report and addendum. We've heard many. People specifically from the CSS JC. We've heard the town manager say the DEI director believes. Her reporting on this incident is done. But if there's belief that those aren't sufficient. And belief that they are sufficient. I. Hesitate to say we can establish consensus without further investigating. I don't know the answer to that. I worry that. We'd be creating an investigatory body without. Much say in how they investigate. And without frankly, any authority and how to investigate. Committees don't have authority to go into and read. Private. And. You know, non-public documents. So that's one of my concerns with. Some specific language in here. The other concern is not really a concern, but more of a question. And I think this was asked by. Another CSS JC member. What are we going to do with the proposed plan? Is the assumption. That we will adopt. The proposed plan because if that's the assumption, I've got more concerns. Or is the assumption that proposed plan will come here. And then it might go off to another committee of the council to review. To see whether we want to. Adopt some all none change stuff and all of that. What, what's the action afterward? And I guess that goes back to. If we know as a council, what we want. Why not just ask the town manager to do it with. Consulting. I think the motion six says. Using and consulting. Some of these, these committees too. But why not just say, do that. Why create a committee? So I'm. I'm not sure I can support this yet, but I'm still thinking hard on it. But those are some of my questions and concerns. Thank you. Shalini. Again, again, I want to reiterate that. Yes, there is racism in our town. There is profiling. That has been shared by some of the people in our. Amongst us today. That's been shared. And in the, from the public and. And that needs to stop. It's not going to stop over night. But we need to take the actions. And hopefully tonight. To make that stop. The other issue that I want to really highlight is that. Creating a committee, a working group. To do the job that we have hired a director to do. To create a process forward to set up the residence oversight board. We're setting a bad precedent where we hire black leaders, but we don't give them the power to lead. We need to let her. Not only do her job, we need to. Clear the road for her to do, to do the job, not add more things for her to even look at this and to even look at that. We need to give her the consultant if she needs so that she can do it in a faster manner. And. I don't know. I just feel that. The motion that the alternatives that are out there are going to get us to start acting. And on what is needed. And secondly, there was one other point I had in my mind. Which was it'll come to me in a minute. Deep breaths. Okay. Okay, maybe I'm going to come back to you with the second point I was going to make, but. Yeah, come back. Okay. I'm going to call on myself briefly. And, you know, I think if, if I'm not able to support this motion and I'm still trying to. Trying to process through it in my head. The reason is that. And I apologize if I sound repetitive. I think, you know, my, my concern is that. If we do this, are we negating the things that CSS JC has already written to us as the list of things they'd like to see happen because we're now going to say, forget that we're going to, we're going to form this new group. And, and I see you shaking your head, Michelle. Hang on. Let me, let me finish my sentence. Please. And we're going to wait to see what comes out of this committee instead. And so my concern is how are we, how are we doing both if this committee is answering a question that CSS JC has written an answer to in their letter to us before. So I still, and that's not every single bullet point on this list. There's just a few on here that I think that's where I'm seeing that overlap that I'm concerned about. Because I, I think that. What I'm hearing is that action is the priority right now and action is one of the priorities right now. And I don't want to do things that are. Slowing that down. So that's, that's where my, my challenge with this is right now is, is I am concerned that we have a lot of the answers to this already. And they've been given to us by the, the, the, the, the, the, the committee that we've put together to work on community safety and social justice. So that's where I'm, that's where my heads at. I wanted to share that Dorothy. Okay. So in teaching logic to community college students, sometimes we talk about creating a straw man. And I do feel that that is one of the things that's happening here is creating a straw man that somehow we can divert our attention to what we're doing. I think the motion is good. I think that some people are uncomfortable with it because you want to know ahead of time how it's going to turn out and you want to control it. And the idea is. We will not totally control it. We have these committees. And who will be drawn upon presenting some members to a new committee. That will control it. I really think we should go ahead and let that happen. But I have a question for the town manager. When we said we wanted to add crests and DEI, it was because we wanted to make sure that their input was given where they wanted to give it and where they felt it was necessary. You are the one who knows what they can do and can't do. And we have spoken to you a couple of times saying that. That we felt that you did over burden some of the staff. So I see that you're really trying to respond to that. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that you did over burden some of the staff. So I see that you're really trying to respond to that. So. I just think that you could give your opinion a little bit more strongly. Mr. Backelman. What do you think in terms of. Should we leave this staff, this committee as it is. Or should we. With just the. The rep non voting representative of the APD. And only bring in crest when needed. I just want your opinion on that. So I guess I don't really know what the non voting representative from APD means really. What their role would be. And I would be important to understand that. Right. I can tell you that we are building two brand new departments. And that Pamela and Earl are working eons. And we're in a. I want them to continue their work that they were hired to do. And I think it's really important. This is an important committee. If the, if the council feels this is an important committee, you can certainly create it. That's totally within your purview. I'm just what I'm saying is, as terms of staffing, I cannot commit that. You know, especially the Earl and Pamela, but we'll be able to, you know, the police chief has a bigger staff, obviously. Yeah, but. And I'm not stadium, right? So, I'm just saying, you know, Earl doesn't have the, you know, the developed staff that he needs, he's building that program. And Pamela is tapped out. Yeah. Quite honestly. And so it's been pretty clear in terms of where. My job as a manager of people isn't make sure that they're able And that they are able to do it within the time frame of the hours that for which we pay them. I'm making a big emphasis of this right now because we put a lot of burdens on our staff. And it is we had a meeting this morning bar department heads and it was palpable. What department heads are saying or their, their staffs are feeling. And it's, and it's not just, I'll be honest with you, it's not just the work that they're doing. What's happening with individual staff and how staff are being treated in public meetings is felt felt by everybody. And I think that that's really disturbing to everybody. Sean was in the meeting. He can attest to it. Because when the staff here criticisms of the of their fellow leaders, I mean, other department heads. And they feel that, you know, that could be me and they start to know and one staff number said, I've got a kid going to college. What does this mean for me? You know, they're worried about things like that. So it might have today and this is totally like the issues that people brought up today. I mean, Councilor Walker and Phillip were just so powerful. And so this seems, you know, miniscule compared to the feelings that they had and that was just really meaningful to me but my hat I am wearing today is in terms of managing staff for the town of Amherst. So I just wanted to convey that and it's really not to compare that at all to what other.